sram components are made of plastic
gianni_z
######################
>>>your mtb groups have too much plastic, I will continue to buy shimano
>>I hope that you will be able to improve, I hope
######################
and this is the answer:
######################
Thanks for your comments. I would refer you to our website,
www.srma.com there
you an check out the latest and greatest. I would encourage you to look
at our
new X.O rear derailleur. Also for 2003 all of of ESP rear derailleurs will
feature AL knuckles.
######################
my shimano deore often breaks, I really hope that sram will improve,
because until know I HAD to buy shimano
shimano is japanese... I prefer to buy something made in the usa.
If only campagnolo could made a mtb group....
Huw Pritchard
something like this:
>I wrote to sram this:
>######################
> >>>your mtb groups have too much plastic, I will continue to buy shimano
> >>I hope that you will be able to improve, I hope
>######################
And your problem with having plastic on components is? Having seen
the quality of the castings on some Shimano stuff, I'd seriously
consider going for the Sram on that basis alone.
>shimano is japanese... I prefer to buy something made in the usa.
>If only campagnolo could made a mtb group....
And Campagnolo are made where?
Michael Paul
"gianni_z" <e...@localdomain.com> wrote in message
news:3D20C637...@localdomain.com...
designed they can be just as strong as metal parts and they can also be
lighter. if a metal part isn't designed right, it might loop stronger but
have a built in failure point.
Plastics are used in many industries for a wide variety of parts.
Last time I checked, Campy parts weren't made on this side of the Atlantic
ocean so buying those parts wouldn't be supporting the USA either.
Michael
gianni_z
> There's nothing inherently wrong with plastic parts. If they're properly
> designed they can be just as strong as metal parts and they can also be
> lighter. if a metal part isn't designed right, it might loop stronger but
> have a built in failure point.
>
> Plastics are used in many industries for a wide variety of parts.
look mtb action of july, you will see that a lot of people complain
about the sram plastic derailleur! plastic is crap
gianni_z
>
>>shimano is japanese... I prefer to buy something made in the usa.
>>If only campagnolo could made a mtb group....
>
>
> And Campagnolo are made where?
I didn't express my idea correctly, I meant that I hate japanese stuff
gianni_z
> Dear Sir:
>
> Appreciate ur valuable idea. Tks. We already add 7075 aluminum into
>our X.O RD top end group now. Pls ck our web to see more detailed.
>
and it costs twice than shimano!!
[cut]
>Plastic can be tough like steel after add some new process.
this is phisically impossible
>Lighter/Inexpensive/Easy to molding/ Easy to change the die make new
>items/Easy to add color/.....for all of bicycle industry.
sram thinks that things should be cool, not strong :-((
> The btm line are Inexpensive/ Lighter for all rider get benefit.
lighter??? it isn't so important
in mountain bike action of july there a lot of complaints about too much
plastic in sram derailleurs!!!!
spademan o---[)*
Campag used to make the best MTB groupset, which was rated higher than XTR -
Record OR. Unfortunately they failed to keep up with the big 'S' in terms of
new developments in shifters, brakes etc. Suntour also used to produce a
half-decent groupset, and was the first company to develop a microdrive
system (smaller front and rear sprockets) before shimano nicked that idea
and wiped them out with some new fangled brake pads called 'M' system.
Suntour also used to produce some great thumbshifters though...
Steve E.
bomba
> >Plastic can be tough like steel after add some new process.
>
> this is phisically impossible
Why? Please explain to us why plastic can not be as tough as steel.
>
> >Lighter/Inexpensive/Easy to molding/ Easy to change the die make new
> >items/Easy to add color/.....for all of bicycle industry.
>
> sram thinks that things should be cool, not strong :-((
I disagree - all of their responses are related to manufacturing of the
equipment.
> > The btm line are Inexpensive/ Lighter for all rider get benefit.
>
> lighter??? it isn't so important
>
> in mountain bike action of july there a lot of complaints about too much
> plastic in sram derailleurs!!!!
I don't buy mtb magazines, but I can't see why you can complain that
there is just too much material in a piece of equipment - save, perhaps
if it was asbestos.
Basically, you've read an article in a magazine and gone off on a
mission. Do you have bad experiences of SRAM equipment yourself?
Here's a different opinion: I've never had any problems with my SRAM
equipment and I can't remember the last time I had to adjust it.
bomba
--
Welcome to bomba's Wonderful World of FAQs (TM)
alt.bmx FAQ: http://bombacommand.iwarp.com/bmx_faq.htm
alt.mountain-bike FAQ: http://bombacommand.iwarp.com/ambfaq.htm
bomba
Why? Perhaps you'd like to elucidate on your apparent irrational
xenophobia.
Shaun Rimmer
Huw Pritchard <h...@pritchSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3d20cabd...@news.freeserve.com...
> On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:08:53 GMT, gianni_z <e...@localdomain.com> said
> something like this:
>
> >I wrote to sram this:
> >######################
> > >>>your mtb groups have too much plastic, I will continue to buy shimano
> > >>I hope that you will be able to improve, I hope
> >######################
>
> And your problem with having plastic on components is?
Well, having seen more than one SRAM mech that has broken at that plastic
area recently (the last one broke right off when the rider mis-shifted), I
can see his concerns - it just ain't as tough as even the arguably crap
shimano alloy castings IME.
Shaun aRe
gianni_z
> gianni_z wrote:
>
>>Huw Pritchard wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>shimano is japanese... I prefer to buy something made in the usa.
>>>>If only campagnolo could made a mtb group....
>>>
>>>
>>>And Campagnolo are made where?
>>
>>I didn't express my idea correctly, I meant that I hate japanese stuff
>
>
> Why? Perhaps you'd like to elucidate on your apparent irrational
> xenophobia.
it is not xenophobia, simply I find out that things made in japan (asia
in general) are less good than things made in europe/usa, so, whenever
possible, I prefer to avoid to buy things made there
Andrew Thorne
>it is not xenophobia, simply I find out that things made in japan (asia
>in general) are less good than things made in europe/usa, so, whenever
>possible, I prefer to avoid to buy things made there
Wow. You're an idiot.
-Andrew
gianni_z
> gianni_z wrote:
>
>
>> >Plastic can be tough like steel after add some new process.
>>
>>this is phisically impossible
>
>
> Why? Please explain to us why plastic can not be as tough as steel.
please find some kind of plastic priced less or equal to steel and that
has the same strenghtness, and resistence to abrasion
once a piece of rigid plastic is bent, you can't straighten it (instead
it is often possible with steel, for example the ductile steel of
derailleurs)
>>
>>in mountain bike action of july there a lot of complaints about too much
>>plastic in sram derailleurs!!!!
>
>
> I don't buy mtb magazines, but I can't see why you can complain that
> there is just too much material in a piece of equipment - save, perhaps
> if it was asbestos.
I meant that they sustitute too often steel with plastic
>
> Basically, you've read an article in a magazine and gone off on a
> mission. Do you have bad experiences of SRAM equipment yourself?
I don't want to make a bad experience
do you work at sram?
please read this
http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Derailleur/product_78889.shtml
or here:
http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Derailleur/product_20868.shtml
look for the words scam and crap
gianni_z
>
> Wow. You're an idiot.
>
> -Andrew
fuck you shit, fuck your mother
Hutch
> >>
> >>I didn't express my idea correctly, I meant that I hate japanese stuff
> >
> > Why? Perhaps you'd like to elucidate on your apparent irrational
> > xenophobia.
>
> it is not xenophobia, simply I find out that things made in japan (asia
> in general) are less good than things made in europe/usa, so, whenever
> possible, I prefer to avoid to buy things made there
Mmm.. i like to 'Buy British' but there is no doubt that often Asian stuff
is better. One thing you get with Jap stuff is sheer size of production runs
so they have lots off free R&D being done by millions of users.. Take Jap
cars for example.. they are at the forefront of the industry.
right.. i havent proved anything.. bye.
Hutch 'happy cus his site got in DIRT'
--
www.dirtjumpbiker.com
Andrew Thorne
Plonk. Bye.
bomba
> >> >Plastic can be tough like steel after add some new process.
> >>
> >>this is phisically impossible
> >
> >
> > Why? Please explain to us why plastic can not be as tough as steel.
>
> please find some kind of plastic priced less or equal to steel and that
> has the same strenghtness, and resistence to abrasion
Price was never mentioned - you talked about plastic stronger than steel
being a _physical_ impossibility. That's clearly not true. Try reading
up on fibre reinforced plastic for starters.
> once a piece of rigid plastic is bent, you can't straighten it (instead
> it is often possible with steel, for example the ductile steel of
> derailleurs)
Derailleurs aren't made of steel. And you really shouldn't be bending
aluminium back in to shape.
> >>
> >>in mountain bike action of july there a lot of complaints about too much
> >>plastic in sram derailleurs!!!!
> >
> >
> > I don't buy mtb magazines, but I can't see why you can complain that
> > there is just too much material in a piece of equipment - save, perhaps
> > if it was asbestos.
>
> I meant that they sustitute too often steel with plastic
In your opinion.
> >
> > Basically, you've read an article in a magazine and gone off on a
> > mission. Do you have bad experiences of SRAM equipment yourself?
>
> I don't want to make a bad experience
So that will be a 'no' then.
> do you work at sram?
No, I just find your manner incredibly irritating. You have no personal
experience of SRAM products and you come in here making wild, irrational
statements that you don't back up. I also don't see why you need to
bring your personal beef with SRAM in to this newsgroup.
> or here:
> http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Derailleur/product_20868.shtml
> look for the words scam and crap
Or go and look here:
http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Derailleur/product_20838.shtml
You'll see it's an award winner.
bomba
Quite an astute analysis, I feel.
gianni_z
> No, I just find your manner incredibly irritating. You have no personal
> experience of SRAM products and you come in here making wild, irrational
> statements that you don't back up.
I found many negative reviews, in mountain bike action and in mtbr.com
> I also don't see why you need to
> bring your personal beef with SRAM in to this newsgroup.
if you're not intersted, simply ignore my message
>>or here:
>>http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Derailleur/product_20868.shtml
>>look for the words scam and crap
>
>
> Or go and look here:
> http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Derailleur/product_20838.shtml
> You'll see it's an award winner.
I understand, there are two possibilities:
1) you are an idiot
2) you work for sram (in this case you are and idiot again)
the first review at the page that you pointed out, I found:
Weaknesses: snaps in half without impact...
and there are many others like this
you prefer plastic derailleurs becouse you can put it in your ass
without pain
gianni_z
> Quite an astute analysis, I feel.
fuck you idiot, put that plastic sram crap in your ass, and enjoy
jimbosan
Well Giani...
Rather than read the words of others I take it on personal experience.. I
have both Shimano components and SRAM products on my bikes... I have never
really had any issues with one component being less sturdy because of the
make up... plastic vs metal...
but I will tell you on a customer service basis.. SRAM is Worlds better than
Shimano... If at a MTB festival SRAM is alaways there.... If my derailuer is
out by the smallest bit or worn... they replace it... free of charge... I
returned later with tuning problems and they replaced every cable and
housing on my bike free of charge. The rep also tweaked all of my non SRAM
parts (front derailuer and brakes).I have yet to see Shimano show up to any
festival I have been to.. I was at a bike expo and Shimano was there... my
friend is having trouble with his Shimano rear hub and asked the Shimano rep
about it... He really never got an intelligible answer. The hub is still
screwed up.
I have been posting to this newsgroup for about 5 or 6 years and never heard
anyone mention that SRAM's materials are inferior... I have read the twist
shift vs, rapidfire argument more times than you can imagine...
Before your post I had never really known it was an issue...
If you have a problem with SRAM having a potential shoddy materials. .. by
all means stay away from those components... words in a magazine and on the
internet must be true!!!
If you need to have validation that SRAM is crap... by all means it looks
like you have found it...
As for me I prefer to use personal "real" world experience....
Jimbo...uses both prefers neither...(san)
bomba
> you prefer plastic derailleurs becouse you can put it in your ass
> without pain
</sigh> isn't it just a pity that you can't have a slightly heated
debate without someone losing the debate, then losing the plot and
telling you to shove stuff up your ass.
BTW Gianni, you seem to have a fascination with sticking things in
people's asses. Sigmund Freud would have a field day...
gianni_z
> all means stay away from those components... words in a magazine and on the
> internet must be true!!!
I am right becouse I found a lot of negative reviews on mtbr.com, a
magazine can be wrong, but 30 or 40 persons can't be all wrong
> If you need to have validation that SRAM is crap... by all means it looks
> like you have found it...
I am right, actual sram derailleurs are made of plastic, so they are
crap, the x.0 is not made of plastic (I think) so it should be really better
> As for me I prefer to use personal "real" world experience....
Yes, but I think that mtbr is a good source of real world experience
gianni_z
> gianni_z wrote:
>
>
>>you prefer plastic derailleurs becouse you can put it in your ass
>>without pain
>
>
> </sigh> isn't it just a pity that you can't have a slightly heated
you said that I'm an idiot, I just answered to your offence, so You are
the one that can't have a heated debate
> debate without someone losing the debate, then losing the plot and
> telling you to shove stuff up your ass.
Idiot (you said it first, do you remember?) I am not loosing anything,
simply you are too lazy to go on mtbr and read
you are the looser
Chris Glidden
products right? Makes perfect sense to me.
cg
Chris Glidden
"bomba" <uknowuluvituslag@no_spamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D21AF94.E1A44DBB@no_spamhotmail.com...
> Andrew Thorne wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >it is not xenophobia, simply I find out that things made in japan (asia
> > >in general) are less good than things made in europe/usa, so, whenever
> > >possible, I prefer to avoid to buy things made there
> >
> > Wow. You're an idiot.
>
> Quite an astute analysis, I feel.
>
> bomba
>
cg
Chris Glidden
> bomba wrote:
>
> > Quite an astute analysis, I feel.
> fuck you idiot, put that plastic sram crap in your ass, and enjoy
>
Did you get beat up by the school bullies? I recommend you lurk a bit more,
and post when you have learned not to be such the barney.
cg
Chris Glidden
"gianni_z" <e...@localdomain.com> wrote
<snip>
> in mountain bike action of july there a lot of complaints about too much
> plastic in sram derailleurs!!!!
>
cg
Hutch
Once upon a time there was a person called Gianni.. he. she.. it made some
comments about some mtb products. Several people dissagreed with he/she/it.
Gianni didnt like this and lost control..
Gianni now resides happily ever after in lots of A.M-B readers kill filters.
The End.
Hutch
--
www.dirtjumpbiker.com
gianni_z
>
> Once upon a time there was a person called Gianni.. he. she.. it made some
> comments about some mtb products. Several people dissagreed with he/she/it.
> Gianni didnt like this and lost control..
> Gianni now resides happily ever after in lots of A.M-B readers kill filters.
> The End.
no! andrew thorne said that I'm an idiot, I simply answered to him!
Chris Glidden
"gianni_z" <e...@localdomain.com> wrote <snip pretentious "I read it so it
must be true" babblings>
Hey Rigatoni Boy! Again, don't believe everything you read. Also, you
should wash that mouth out with soap.
ClydesdaleMTB
> I found many negative reviews, in mountain bike action and in mtbr.com
Always great places for candid honest reviews indeed!.
When was the last time you say a good review of a product on the
facing page from a ad for that product in M.B.A.?
Now compare that to the same for the bad reviews? do you see a
patter emerging?
How long do they "test" the product for? one ride? a week, a month,
a year?
Check out the reviews in DirtRag. Brutally honest with little regard
for who's paying their bills. I have seen them completely roast a
product on the _same_ page as an ad for that product. who else has
the gonads to do that?
> > I also don't see why you need to
> > bring your personal beef with SRAM in to this newsgroup.
>
> if you're not intersted, simply ignore my message
You asked for opinions you got it. Perhaps you should have said"
"Only respond if you agree with me". Take the good with the bad.
I have NEVER had a SRAM (plastic) component fail on me. I cannot say
the same for Shitmano.
I outfitted my wife's' and my kids' bikes with SRAM for one basic
reason, lack of require repair/maintenence on my part.
I put them on because I don't want to spend a lot of time fixing
their bikes, I'd rather just have them ride them instead.
I still run Shimano on my personal bike but that is ONLY because I
like trigger shifters over grip shifts. Period.
It is at a price though. My shimano drive train requires much more
work to keep it running smoothly and shifting cleanly and
consistently. I accept albeit this grudgingly, because I don't like
grip shifters.
> you prefer plastic derailleurs becouse you can put it in your ass
> without pain
Your true colors shine through!
bomba
> >>you prefer plastic derailleurs becouse you can put it in your ass
> >>without pain
> >
> >
> > </sigh> isn't it just a pity that you can't have a slightly heated
>
> you said that I'm an idiot, I just answered to your offence, so You are
> the one that can't have a heated debate
I didn't call you an idiot.
> > debate without someone losing the debate, then losing the plot and
> > telling you to shove stuff up your ass.
>
> Idiot (you said it first, do you remember?)
No - please point to the message ID where I wrote "idiot".
I am not loosing anything,
> simply you are too lazy to go on mtbr and read
> you are the looser
Looser than what?
jimbosan
I really think you are a little confused there Gianni...
The internet has nothing to do with the real world...
Real world experience is experience either you or someone who you know
personally have actual working experience of the subject in question... The
internet on the other hand is dependent on opinions and hearsay of people
who you have never met...
You stated you were right twice so I guess since I read it on the
internet... you must be right!!!
Congradulations... you really out witted me there!!!
Damn...
Jimbo(san)
Andy Chequer
> it is not xenophobia, simply I find out that things made in japan (asia
> in general) are less good than things made in europe/usa, so, whenever
> possible, I prefer to avoid to buy things made there
Well, if this was true then the USA's top selling car would probably be the
Ford Taurus, not the Honda Accord. But I don't really want to argue about
this point, I'd rather talk about materials selection, boring bastard that I
am.....
Taking the example of a rear mech, failure of these parts is due to either
excessive pivot wear or some sort of impact bringing about failure. As for
pivot wear, manufacturers who use cast aluminium for the mech bodies (the
ones that I have seen broken open anyway) have small steel inserts which
press into the casting and engage with the pivot pin. Manufacturers who use
"plastic" do the same. By plastic, I am taking this to mean Glass Fibre
Reinforced Composites (GFRP) and Carbon Fibre Reinforced Composites (CFRP).
These steel inserts are there because neither the cast aluminium nor the
plastic are resistant enough to wear to provide a satisfactory service life.
Assuming the bushing materials to be identical, then there's no reason for
an aluminium bodied mech to last longer than the GFRP/CFRP one.
Then there's the "pick up a stick, wind the mech around backwards and rip it
off" scenario, as this type of incident is really rather an act of god
that's difficult to design a mech to withstand. The resulting design would
have to be so heavy it's unbelievable and it doesnt happen often (not to me
anyway) so it's not really a contingency worth designing for. Though if it
were me, I'd probably design the mech cage and the mech body to be joined by
a sacrificial bolt which broke in preference to the mech. All you then need
is a new bolt. But in the absence of this, both plastic and aluminium mechs
are equally buggered in this scenario. It's new mech time whichever way.
As for the sort of "banging the mech on a rock as you wizz by" type impact,
you're very likely to be better off with the GFRP/CFRP body than an
aluminium one as the fracture toughness of these materials is superior to
the sort of cast aluminium used for mech bodies. But this is merely
intrinsic material properties, so it's difficult to say which actually will
fare better as it's down to the design, but my money would be on the plastic
if its properly done.
Having said that, the SRAM mechs that I have seen failed have died because
the metal parts of the mech have become unstuck from the plastic parts.
SRAM's descision to use all-aluminium lugs on their 2003 mechs may be
evidence to suggest that this is a frequent problem (admission of failure?
argue either way - I don't care) It is notoriously difficult to stick
plastic to aluminium, as GT found with their LTS Thermoplastic, STS and LOBO
bikes. But this technology will only improve.
To say that metal would be intrinsically superior to plastic in every case
is simply not true. Shimano have just gone down this road with the latest XT
RF+ which have cast aluminium bodies on them that can't take being struck,
unlike the plastic casings that have always adorned these shifters in the
past. The casing merely serves to keep the muck out and the plastic has
enough give in it to resist breaking, whereas the aluminium (cast scarily
thin for weight reasons) does not have this. I saw another one of these
failures at my LBS today. Which makes three in total (so there. it must be a
trend!) But the casings are aluminium merely to increase the "percieved
quality" of the product, rather than for a proper functional benefit.
If you have this much hassle with breaking Deore stuff I might respecfully
advise that you be less clumsy. It's plenty strong enough, but breakable
just like everything else. If you really can't deal with that, then do some
overtime and buy a Rohloff hub gear.
Me? I'm having Campag next time. The Campag triple road mechs are enough to
give me the gears I use anyway (11-28 on the back, spread of 22 on the
front), and I can make thumbies from road downtube levers with a custom
mount for the MTB handlebar. Pervy or what.
Andy "tired fingers" Chequer
Michael Paul
I said there's nothing inherently wrong with plastic parts IF they're
designed properly!
I can't control it if designers aren't doing their job but in general a
plastic part can be designed to be just as strong as a comparable metal part
and in most cases be lighter.
Michael
"gianni_z" <e...@localdomain.com> wrote in message
news:3D21557D...@localdomain.com...
> Michael Paul wrote:
>
> > There's nothing inherently wrong with plastic parts. If they're
properly
> > designed they can be just as strong as metal parts and they can also be
> > lighter. if a metal part isn't designed right, it might loop stronger
but
> > have a built in failure point.
> >
> > Plastics are used in many industries for a wide variety of parts.
>
> look mtb action of july, you will see that a lot of people complain
> about the sram plastic derailleur! plastic is crap
>
Michael Paul
> jimbosan wrote:
>
> > all means stay away from those components... words in a magazine and on
the
> > internet must be true!!!
>
> I am right becouse I found a lot of negative reviews on mtbr.com, a
> magazine can be wrong, but 30 or 40 persons can't be all wrong
>
> > If you need to have validation that SRAM is crap... by all means it
looks
> > like you have found it...
>
> I am right, actual sram derailleurs are made of plastic, so they are
> crap, the x.0 is not made of plastic (I think) so it should be really
better
>
the light. Plastic parts are cheaper to manufacture, faster to produce, can
be colored, etc. They can also be STRONGER and LIGHTER than the metal part
they replace! This is a fact. Plastic parts are all over the place in our
world today and they have replaced parts that were historically made out of
metal. Why? becasue the plastic parts were made to be just as strong as
the metal parts they were replacing.
There are tons of plastics out there with a variety of different properties.
You can get materials that are very oily to use when you have mating
friction surfaces. You can get materials that have small bits of fiberglass
or carbon fiber for added rigidity and tensile strength. You can even get
plastics that are impregnated with aluminum for added strength.
Automotive manufacturers are using plastics for intake manifolds on engines
now because they're chaeper, just as strong, and they work! Plastics are
all around us for a good reason. If properly designed they are just as good
as a metal part. No, they don't look nearly as cool as a CNC'd brake lever
or derrailleur body but if you're only buying a part for looks then who
cares. If you're buying a part becasue it will work properly and last a
long time then plastics can and will do the job.
As far as Shimano customer service being inferior than SRAM, I can only say
that when my drive side rapid fire shifter broke, I sent it to the Irvine,
CA headquarters nad withing 2 weeks I received a brand new right side
shifter. I have never run SRAM personally but several friends do and they
have had no problems with the parts either so I'm personally convinced that
the quality of the parts is equal from either manufacturer and it just comes
down to personal preference adn not what idiot magazine articles might say.
Michael "do I sound too much like an engineer in the plastics field" P
gianni_z
> be colored, etc. They can also be STRONGER and LIGHTER than the metal part
> they replace! This is a fact. Plastic parts are all over the place in our
sorry but I still belive in these (negative) reviews
http://www.mtbreview.com/reviews/Derailleur/
sram derailleurs are too weak! shimano doesn't have this problem
Andrew Thorne
Gianni, you've already been plonked so I missed your response to Bomba.
Let me set the record straight: He didn't call you an idiot. I did. And you've
posted nothing since then to make me change my opinion.
Others here have done a fine job of pointing out the shortcomings of your
arguments so I won't bother repeating them.
I just hope you find the time to get out ride some more. I find from my own
experience that the more I ride the less I care and think about what I'm riding
on.
Cheers,
-Andrew
BB
>
> I am right becouse I found a lot of negative reviews on mtbr.com, a
> magazine can be wrong, but 30 or 40 persons can't be all wrong
From what I've seen on mtbr.com, AT LEAST 30 or 40 persons could be wrong.
"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce
the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
this is not true".
-- Robert Wilensky, University of California
--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
gianni_z
> And your problem with having plastic on components is?
the problem is the fragility, and sram is trying to correct this problem
becouse they wrote:
####################
Also for 2003 all of of ESP rear derailleurs will
feature AL knuckles.
###################
in 2004 the will ad other AL parts, the next year the same, so in 2010
the derailleurs will be made completely of AL
Huw Pritchard
<bicycle.repair.man@(removethisbittosend)secretworldgovernment.org>
said something like this:
<snip long droning materials essay>
So, the PhD is having a lot of work done on it, then? ;-)
Michael Paul
read from one person. Your original statement was that Plastic (in general)
makes for weak parts. That's not the case and you've been corrected on it.
If you have some other reason for not liking a plastic derrailleur then
that's fine but simply because it's plastic is not a valid argument.
Michael
gianni_z
> If you have some other reason for not liking a plastic derrailleur then
> that's fine but simply because it's plastic is not a valid argument.
the problem is the fragility, and sram is trying to correct this problem
becouse they wrote:
####################
Also for 2003 all of of ESP rear derailleurs will
feature AL knuckles.
###################
in 2004 the will add other AL parts, the next year the same, so in 2010
gianni_z
> "gianni_z" <e...@localdomain.com> wrote in message
> read from one person. Your original statement was that Plastic (in general)
> makes for weak parts. That's not the case and you've been corrected on it.
show me some scientific data for example can plastic bear 500kg/square mm?
Michael Paul
500kg/square mm?
it's all about the application. I never said metal was superior in all
cases to plastic. I simply said that if the part is designed properly and
the application allows it, plastic can be a suitable substitute for a metal
part (what part of this don't you grasp?). If the load requirements for a
part can be met with a plastic part, then there is no reason that plastic
shouldn't be used. The fact that a metal can withstand higher pressures
before failure is irrelevent if the application will never see those
pressures in actual use. Overdesigining something is no better than
underdesiging something.
Go to school for 4+ years, get yourself an engineering degree then contact
us and we may listen more closely to what you have to say. Until then,
you'res imply quoting people from the internet (and we all know that if it's
on the internet it has to be true), from magazines (they're wrong about as
often as people on the internet) and you're making wild assumptions simply
becasue SRAM is putting aluminum on their parts that didn't have it in the
past. Did you ever stop to think that they may be putting it on not becuase
it's better but because some retards in the world THINK it's better and
they're losing sales because these people are choosing not to purchase the
parts that they THINK are inferior?
Maybe SRAM is just a good marketing company and realizes that they're losing
sales to inferior product so they must make theirs appear as superior as the
others?
I'm not saying that is the case nor am I saying that SRAM parts are good or
bad, I'm simply trying to tell you that PLASTIC IS NOT A BAD MATERIAL TO USE
WHEN THE APPLICATION ALLOWS FOR IT AND AS LONG AS THE LOADS OF THE PART CAN
BE SATISFIED WITH PLASTIC THEN THAT IS A GOOD MATERIAL CHOICE!
Michael
gianni_z
> shouldn't be used. The fact that a metal can withstand higher pressures
> before failure is irrelevent if the application will never see those
> pressures in actual use. Overdesigining something is no better than
> underdesiging something.
I don't know if in english is correct, but did you ever heard of
''FATIGUE RESISTANCE''? do you thing that plastic has that? and that it
is good as steel and aluminum?
> Go to school for 4+ years, get yourself an engineering degree then contact
> us and we may listen more closely to what you have to say. Until then,
why don't you go to school?
> often as people on the internet) and you're making wild assumptions simply
> becasue SRAM is putting aluminum on their parts that didn't have it in the
> past. Did you ever stop to think that they may be putting it on not becuase
> it's better but because some retards in the world THINK it's better and
> they're losing sales because these people are choosing not to purchase the
> parts that they THINK are inferior?
I think that they are doing it becouse their derailleurs break too often
> Maybe SRAM is just a good marketing company and realizes that they're losing
> sales to inferior product so they must make theirs appear as superior as the
> others?
>
> I'm not saying that is the case nor am I saying that SRAM parts are good or
> bad, I'm simply trying to tell you that PLASTIC IS NOT A BAD MATERIAL TO USE
> WHEN THE APPLICATION ALLOWS FOR IT AND AS LONG AS THE LOADS OF THE PART CAN
> BE SATISFIED WITH PLASTIC THEN THAT IS A GOOD MATERIAL CHOICE!
I don't know why you, without any scientific data, think that I'm wrong.
I start to think, right know, that you say that I'm wrong only becouse
sram is in the usa.
Huw Pritchard
something like this:
>show me some scientific data for example can plastic bear 500kg/square mm?
Assuming you're talking about the UTS (Ultimate Tensile Strength),
Toyobo Zylon PBO-AS Poly(p-phenylene-2,6-benzobisoxazole) Fiber can
handle 5.8GPa.
When I searched for metals with a UTS over 5GPa, www.matweb.com
returned no results.
PS: Can someone check my maths, as I've had very little sleep.
500kg/sq mm = 5GPa, right?
Chris Glidden
Michael Paul
> Michael Paul wrote:
>
> > shouldn't be used. The fact that a metal can withstand higher pressures
> > before failure is irrelevent if the application will never see those
> > pressures in actual use. Overdesigining something is no better than
> > underdesiging something.
>
> I don't know if in english is correct, but did you ever heard of
> ''FATIGUE RESISTANCE''? do you thing that plastic has that?
All materials (plastic, metal, wood, concrete, ceramic, glass, etc.) have a
fatigue strength
> and that it is good as steel and aluminum?
It can be IF THE PART IS DESIGNED PROPERLY and the loading situation allows
for the use of plastic in the design!@#$@#!@!#$$%#@#
>
> > Go to school for 4+ years, get yourself an engineering degree then
contact
> > us and we may listen more closely to what you have to say. Until then,
>
> why don't you go to school?
I did. Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering. 7+ years of
experience designing and manufacturing products that primarily use plastics.
I designed a pressure vessel manufacturerd out of 20% glass filled
polypropylene to replace an older more expensive tank made from 302/304
stainless (tell me that a pressure vessel cycling between 0 and up to 50 psi
twice a day doesn't fatigue) I've also worked with gear train assemblies
made entirely out of plastic and just a few years ago people only thought
ath a gear could be made out of metal to work properly.
>
> > often as people on the internet) and you're making wild assumptions
simply
> > becasue SRAM is putting aluminum on their parts that didn't have it in
the
> > past. Did you ever stop to think that they may be putting it on not
becuase
> > it's better but because some retards in the world THINK it's better and
> > they're losing sales because these people are choosing not to purchase
the
> > parts that they THINK are inferior?
>
> I think that they are doing it becouse their derailleurs break too often
AS I said before, I have friends (and I trust the opinion of a friend over
what I read on the internet) who use SRAM and have never had a problem with
their equipment.
>
>
> > Maybe SRAM is just a good marketing company and realizes that they're
losing
> > sales to inferior product so they must make theirs appear as superior as
the
> > others?
> >
> > I'm not saying that is the case nor am I saying that SRAM parts are good
or
> > bad, I'm simply trying to tell you that PLASTIC IS NOT A BAD MATERIAL TO
USE
> > WHEN THE APPLICATION ALLOWS FOR IT AND AS LONG AS THE LOADS OF THE PART
CAN
> > BE SATISFIED WITH PLASTIC THEN THAT IS A GOOD MATERIAL CHOICE!
>
> I don't know why you, without any scientific data, think that I'm wrong.
because you haven't stated any proof of why plastic derrailleurs are bad.
You just say they're bad. I know from my education and experience that
plastic will work in many applications if the part is designed properly.
Your only experience is what you read on the internet.
>
> I start to think, right know, that you say that I'm wrong only becouse
> sram is in the usa.
I don't give a shit where SRAM is located. Did you read my earlier post
that says I DON"T USE SRAM I USE SHIMANO!
Michael
>
>
gianni_z
steel can handle more than 500kg/sq mm!!!
and what about shear and fatigue? :-)))))))))))))))))))
what shear resistance does sram plastic has? is it better than aluminum
or steel? no!
Michael Paul
"Huw Pritchard" <h...@pritchSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3d21e8bf...@news.freeserve.com...
unless I messed up, 500 kg/sq mm = 5,000 kg/sq cm which equals 49 MPa which
would then equal .05 GPa right? It's been too long since I had to work in
anything other than english units :o)
Michael
gianni_z
> "gianni_z" <e...@localdomain.com> wrote in message
> news:3D21E99...@localdomain.com...
>>I don't know if in english is correct, but did you ever heard of
>>''FATIGUE RESISTANCE''? do you thing that plastic has that?
> All materials (plastic, metal, wood, concrete, ceramic, glass, etc.) have a
> fatigue strength
fatigue strenght is measured through cycles alternating maximum/ minimum
(traction and compression) tension (or 70% of maximum/minimum)
I think that sram plastic doesn't have a fitigue resistance comparaple
to aluminum
> I did. Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering. 7+ years of
> experience designing and manufacturing products that primarily use plastics.
> I designed a pressure vessel manufacturerd out of 20% glass filled
> polypropylene to replace an older more expensive tank made from 302/304
> stainless (tell me that a pressure vessel cycling between 0 and up to 50 psi
> twice a day doesn't fatigue) I've also worked with gear train assemblies
what is the tension applied to plastic?
> AS I said before, I have friends (and I trust the opinion of a friend over
> what I read on the internet) who use SRAM and have never had a problem with
> their equipment.
You will have problems, soon
> because you haven't stated any proof of why plastic derrailleurs are bad.
> You just say they're bad. I know from my education and experience that
> plastic will work in many applications if the part is designed properly.
> Your only experience is what you read on the internet.
did you state any proof that it is good, I don't think so at all
many think like me, sram too thinks like me, that is why they are
modifying their derailleurs
Huw Pritchard
something like this:
>steel can handle more than 500kg/sq mm!!!
Handle in what sense of the word? Compressive or tensile?
And why the hell do you keep talking about steel anyway, seeing as
your beef is with derailleurs, which are made of Al anyway?
>and what about shear and fatigue? :-)))))))))))))))))))
You didn't ask about shear and fatigue. You just asked if a polymer
could handle over 5GPa, and I told you that they could. You asked a
stupid question, I gave you a stupid (albeit correct) answer.
>what shear resistance does sram plastic has? is it better than aluminum
>or steel? no!
I don't know what sort of plastic SRAM make their derailleurs out of,
so I'm not going to attempt to answer that question.
Michael Paul
You really are an idiot aren't you? Just becasue a material has better
properties than another doesn't mean it actually is better for a particular
application. Strength (tensile, fatigue, shear, etc.) is only one part of
the equation. If something that has lower properties but will still be able
to sustain the loads subjected to it will work, and that other "inferior"
material is cheaper then there is absolutely no reason to not use the
cheaper "weaker" material because IF PROPERLY DESIGNED THE PART WILL NOT
FAIL!
There is more to what you are tyring to say than simply looking in a table
and finding that steel has higher untlimate tensile strength than plastic
(of course you have yet to actually state what plastic as thre are literally
thousands of different grades each wtih their own properties). Nobody is
arguing that steel has higher tensile strength than a plastic material does.
That's a fact and you are right. But, IF THE PART BEING DESIGNED WILL NEVER
SEE LOADS AS HIGH AS THE MATERIAL CAN WITHSTAND IT IS NOT THE BEST CHOICE OF
MATERIALS FOR THE APPLICATION BECAUSE IT MIGHT BE MORE COSTLY, HEAVY, BULKY,
ETC.!!!!! You are only looking at one variable adn that is not a valid
approach to the problem.
Michael
>
Michael Paul
> Michael Paul wrote:
> > "gianni_z" <e...@localdomain.com> wrote in message
> > news:3D21E99...@localdomain.com...
>
> >>I don't know if in english is correct, but did you ever heard of
> >>''FATIGUE RESISTANCE''? do you thing that plastic has that?
> > All materials (plastic, metal, wood, concrete, ceramic, glass, etc.)
have a
> > fatigue strength
>
> fatigue strenght is measured through cycles alternating maximum/ minimum
> (traction and compression) tension (or 70% of maximum/minimum)
>
> I think that sram plastic doesn't have a fitigue resistance comparaple
> to aluminum
That's an absoultely pointless statement to make if you don't actually know
what the loads are. You're probably 100% correct, whatever plastic SRAM is
using probably doesn't have the fatigue stredngth that aluminum does.
However, you know nothing about what loads the plastic part is actually
experiencing to make a comparision nor do you actually know if the part is
failing due to fatigue or if it's failing for another reason. Even if the
part is failing due to fatigue, is it failing becuase there is a stress
riser in the part (figure out what I mean if you don't already know) or
molded in stress from the injection molding process? Maybe the part is
failing at a knit line (figure that out too because I'm not going to try and
educate you on the entire injection molding process) which can have an
ultimate tensile strength of up to 50% or more lower than what hte plastic
really is?
Maybe the parts were overheated in the molding process leading to a part
that is very stiff but brittle? To simply say that a part is breaking and
then say that it is entirely because the part has lower fatigue strength
than aluminum is 100% wrong!
I've seen metal parts break that shouldn't have too. Why? because there
were impurities in the metal, there were air bubbles present from a bad
casting job, there was stress introduced when the casting was cooled
improperly. The part wasn't heat treated properly. There are 1000 reasons
why a part fails and they aren't all related to fatigue!
Michae
Michael Paul
I was hopeful that between the two of us we could convince him that just
looking at a number in a table doesn't mean it's the best material for a
certain task but I think we've failed misreably.
As far as what material SRAM uses I'd guess it's some type of glass filled
ABS or PP for it's higher tensile strength and added rigidity. It could be
something more exotic but I doubt it. Those are the resins I'd look at
first if I were designing the part.
Michael
Andy Chequer
> steel can handle more than 500kg/sq mm!!!
> and what about shear and fatigue? :-)))))))))))))))))))
> what shear resistance does sram plastic has? is it better than aluminum
> or steel? no!
You don't have the faintest idea what you're on about, do you? 500kg/sq mm?
Shear resistance? My fecking arse.
Andy "tired of this clumsy ranting plonker" Chequer
No, Huw, the PhD is at a standstill again :-)
gianni_z
>>steel can handle more than 500kg/sq mm!!!
>>and what about shear and fatigue? :-)))))))))))))))))))
>>what shear resistance does sram plastic has? is it better than aluminum
>>or steel? no!
>
>
> You don't have the faintest idea what you're on about, do you? 500kg/sq mm?
> Shear resistance? My fecking arse.
you are out of your head
gianni_z
> You really are an idiot aren't you? Just becasue a material has better
stupid son of a bitch
gianni_z
> I was hopeful that between the two of us we could convince him that just
> looking at a number in a table doesn't mean it's the best material for a
> certain task but I think we've failed misreably.
I just say that sram derailleurs fail, they are made of plastic, sram is
now using more aluminium, becouse they think that aluminium is better,
this is what I think.
ah, and death to america
gianni_z
> You really are an idiot aren't you? Just becasue a material has better
you are a son of a bitch, do not disturb me anymore
> properties than another doesn't mean it actually is better for a particular
> application. Strength (tensile, fatigue, shear, etc.) is only one part of
> the equation. If something that has lower properties but will still be able
> to sustain the loads subjected to it will work, and that other "inferior"
> material is cheaper then there is absolutely no reason to not use the
> cheaper "weaker" material because IF PROPERLY DESIGNED THE PART WILL NOT
> FAIL!
the derailleurs of sram fail too often, so:
- the material is crap
- is poorly designed
I think that the first one is true, in fact 2003 derailleurs will have
more aluminium. stop.
come to Italy and I will kick your ass. dirty bastard.
Huw Pritchard
something like this:
>> You really are an idiot aren't you? Just becasue a material has better
>
>stupid son of a bitch
I would killfile you, but you're just too funny!
"Aaaaah! Someone came out with something that I don't understand or
that I disagree with! Do I do some reading on this and try to
appreciate their point? Nah. I'll call them a nasty name. That'll
teach 'em."
gianni_z
> On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 20:01:26 GMT, gianni_z <e...@localdomain.com> said
> something like this:
>
>
>>>You really are an idiot aren't you? Just becasue a material has better
>>
>>stupid son of a bitch
>
>
> I would killfile you, but you're just too funny!
if someone tells you that you are an idiot, what you do? calling him son
of a bitch is the minimum that I can do
Andy Chequer
You don't have the faintest idea what you're on about, again, then.
In my entire career as a Materials Engineer I have never seen anyone get so
het up about materials selection. Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, cowboy.
Go check your units. 500kg/sq mm is 5GPa and no steel is that strong. Come
to terms with being wrong - it's evidently going to be useful to you in the
future.
Now run along and play somewhere else.
Andy "No more Mr Nice" Chequer.
gianni_z
> Now run along and play somewhere else.
go away and don't bother me
Chris Glidden
idiot?
Huw Pritchard
something like this:
>> Now run along and play somewhere else.
>
>go away and don't bother me
I notice that you've strangely removed the bit of the post that can't
be countered with petty insults. That was careless, wasn't it?
gianni_z
>>if someone tells you that you are an idiot, what you do? calling him son
>>of a bitch is the minimum that I can do
>>
>
> I'm curious to know what's the maximum you can do if someone calls you an
> idiot?
I'm curious to know what you do if I tell you that you are an idiot.
Chris Glidden is an idiot.
your answer here:
Andy Chequer
> Andy Chequer wrote:
> > Now run along and play somewhere else.
>
> go away and don't bother me
>
Funny really. It doesn't bother me either. Heh.
Andy Chequer
Andy Chequer
> > if someone tells you that you are an idiot, what you do? calling him son
> > of a bitch is the minimum that I can do
Chris said:
> I'm curious to know what's the maximum you can do if someone calls you an
> idiot?
So am I. Ooh it's going to be handbags over here.......
Andy Chequer.
Chris Glidden
Carla, Penny, or Kathleen could kick your pasta eating, Chianti drinking ass
from here back to Italy.
Oh yeah, Mario Cipollini sucks ass.
cg
Chris Glidden
I'm terribly sorry you don't have anything better to do than sit around all
day spewing crap from the hole in your head you choose to call a mouth.
Now back to my original question, what would be the maximum you (Father
Guido Sarducci) would do if someone were to call you an idiot?
cg
Andy Chequer
> >
> Hey Guido, why don't you come over to the US, I'll bet 10 to 1 odds that
> Carla, Penny, or Kathleen could kick your pasta eating, Chianti drinking
ass
> from here back to Italy.
>
> Oh yeah, Mario Cipollini sucks ass.
>
> cg
Won't work. His freehub has been specially modified so his bike has 28
reverse gears.
Andy "xenophobe" Chequer
ClydesdaleMTB
> ah, and death to america
With making statements like that, I'm sure the NSA, CIA and FBI will
be very happy to hear about your quest for knowledge concerning the
relative strengths of plastics and metals, as well as your obsession
with things placed in peoples rectums.
ClydesdaleMTB
ClydesdaleMTB
> if someone tells you that you are an idiot, what you do? calling him son
> of a bitch is the minimum that I can do
That sounds like a threatening statement, Gianni.....
ClydesdaleMTB
> come to Italy and I will kick your ass. dirty bastard.
Jean-Sylvain
>
> I wrote to sram this:
> ######################
> >>>your mtb groups have too much plastic, I will continue to buy shimano
> >>I hope that you will be able to improve, I hope
> ######################
Yeah, if they could make their chains with plastic, I bet they would.
My 2001 7.0 rear derailleur is broken just because I can't change the
spring that put tension on the cage. On their 99 model, you could remove
the cage and then change the spring, but not on the 01 model???? WTF!!!
IMO: SRAM sucks
--
Also sprach Jean-Sylvain
craz...@webtv.net
then my Shimano stuff. You ever see what a derailleur clamp made of
metal does to a frames paint job. And then theres looks. And don't
forget corrosion. And I've rebuilt a few SRAM fnt derailleurs. I also
like the top or bottom pull of SRAM.
MTB 2002
timhigdogspot
>I just say that sram derailleurs fail, they are made of plastic, sram is
>now using more aluminium, becouse they think that aluminium is better,
>this is what I think.
>
>ah, and death to america
You just went from idiot to something much worse. There are no words to
describe how pathetic you are.
As far as the topic...
-I almost want to give SRAM a chance now, have always been happy with Shimano.
God Bless the USA, Happy Independence Day all!
Tim
buaidh no bas
gianni_z
I think the same and the same think many people in mtbr.com, I this
thread there are many persons that don't understand that sram is using
plastic simply becouse it is CHEAPER
the plastic that sram uses has less tensile strengh, less shear -
abrasion - fatigue resistance
sram plastic derailleurs are crap, everybody will find out, sooner or later
bomba
>
> On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:45:25 GMT, gianni_z wrote:
> >
> > I am right becouse I found a lot of negative reviews on mtbr.com, a
> > magazine can be wrong, but 30 or 40 persons can't be all wrong
>
> From what I've seen on mtbr.com, AT LEAST 30 or 40 persons could be wrong.
>
> "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce
> the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know
> this is not true".
>
> -- Robert Wilensky, University of California
What a fantastic quote.
bomba
--
Welcome to bomba's Wonderful World of FAQs (TM)
alt.bmx FAQ: http://bombacommand.iwarp.com/bmx_faq.htm
alt.mountain-bike FAQ: http://bombacommand.iwarp.com/ambfaq.htm
Shaun Rimmer
Chris Phillipo <cphi...@ramsays-online.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.178baf097...@news1.ns.sympatico.ca...
> In article <afrtes$cko$1...@news.airtime.co.uk>, sh...@newtronic.co.uk
> says...
> >
> >
> > Huw Pritchard <h...@pritchSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:3d20cabd...@news.freeserve.com...
> > > On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:08:53 GMT, gianni_z <e...@localdomain.com> said
> > > something like this:
> > >
> > > >I wrote to sram this:
> > > >######################
> > > > >>>your mtb groups have too much plastic, I will continue to buy
shimano
> > > > >>I hope that you will be able to improve, I hope
> > > >######################
> > >
> > > And your problem with having plastic on components is?
> >
> > Well, having seen more than one SRAM mech that has broken at that
plastic
> > area recently (the last one broke right off when the rider mis-shifted),
I
> > can see his concerns - it just ain't as tough as even the arguably crap
> > shimano alloy castings IME.
> >
> > Shaun aRe
> >
>
> Umm, it should be mentioned at this point that, on a 9.0SL at least,
> this part is supposed to break, it saves the hanger on the bike and the
> main mechanism of the derailleur from destruction, the part is about $8
> to replace and just requires removing a few c-clips.
What, the 'knuckle' part? The very next moving bit of the mech, after where
it attaches to the frame? - That's where these had broken, and the last one
I saw (not at the time of the accident - it was in his 'bak), the guy had it
jam in his spokes, destroying a few, and locking up and bending the wheel
out of true. I'd rather replace a mech hanger myself.
Shaun aRe
bomba
> I'd rather replace a mech hanger myself.
Not all bikes have replacable mech hangers, and straightening out a
cro-mo one many times will weaken it.
Stephen Baker
>I think the same and the same think many people in mtbr.com, I this
>thread there are many persons that don't understand that sram is using
>plastic simply becouse it is CHEAPER
Don't believe much of what you read on MTBR.com., some of it is mine........
We all understand that plastic is cheaper, and no-one is surprised that it is
used for that reason.
>sram plastic derailleurs are crap, everybody will find out, sooner or later
You're entitled to your opinion. What you are NOT entitled to is insulting
people because they disagree with you. They called you an idiot? Well, you
have gone a long way towards proving it so far.
As my Daddy used to say, "Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than
to open it and prove that you are."
And since I've just proved that maxim, I'll shut up (and ride....)
Steve
gianni_z
> Johnny writes:
>
>
>>I think the same and the same think many people in mtbr.com, I this
>>thread there are many persons that don't understand that sram is using
>>plastic simply becouse it is CHEAPER
>
>
> Don't believe much of what you read on MTBR.com., some of it is mine........
> We all understand that plastic is cheaper, and no-one is surprised that it is
> used for that reason.
why didn't you comment this?
Stephen Baker
>why didn't you comment this?
>the plastic that sram uses has less tensile strengh, less shear -
>abrasion - fatigue resistance
I didn't comment on that because plastic does not have to have the same
strength as steel to do its job.
Most small boats are made of plastic, and some are made of steel. The plastic
ones go faster, float just fine, and are cheaper to build. The only reasons to
have a steel one are if you a) want to bounce it off rocks a lot, b) are handy
with a welding torch and want to build it yourself, or c) like the fact that
what you are sailing is inherently sinkable.
Steve
Andy Chequer
You don't have data on this, do you. If you had a clue, you would have
mentioned fracture toughness by now. But you haven't. What does "abrasion
resistance" mean to a rear mech anyway?
If you're always breaking Deore mechs then it won't really matter if the
SRAM ones are plastic, because you'll always be breaking those instead. Lots
of people make the assumption (especially on MTBR.com) that they break
things a lot because they're hardcore riders who ride on the edge, whereas
in reality they're just clumsy bastards with no mechanical sympathy. Might I
suggest BMX? Or maybe swimming?
Andy Chequer
ClydesdaleMTB
> sram is using plastic simply becouse it is CHEAPER
Opinion, very very far from fact.
How do you substantiate your claim? Do you work for them? Do you
personally know one of their design engineers who told you this?
> the plastic that sram uses has less tensile strengh, less shear -
> abrasion - fatigue resistance
Less than WHAT?
Also you state that rather matter-of-factly. How do you know this
to be true? Did you perform independent double blind Resilient
Modulus Testing in a controlled lab environment? Or are you just
spewing your bile again? Or is this just your OPINION. Stop stating
your OPINION as they are facts.
They are not facts, they are opinion.
> sram plastic derailleurs are crap,
opinion.
> everybody will find out, sooner or later
deluded opinion.
Have the black helicopters started circling your house yet?
ClydesdaleMTB
> the plastic that sram uses has less tensile strengh, less shear -
> abrasion - fatigue resistance
THAN WHAT? Show me the test data from the resilient modulus testing
to substantiate your claims.
Again you are stating opinion as fact.
Go to www.m-w.com and look up "libel"
jimbosan
"ClydesdaleMTB" <Clydes...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:3D22F50A...@netscape.net...
Opinions are like assholes... everyone has one and they usually stink...
Talking to this moron is like throwing eggs against a brick wall...
Pointless and a waste of good eggs...
Jimbo...tired of talking to the brain dead...(san)
bomba
> > deluded opinion.
> >
> >
> > Have the black helicopters started circling your house yet?
>
> Opinions are like assholes... everyone has one and they usually stink...
> Talking to this moron is like throwing eggs against a brick wall...
> Pointless and a waste of good eggs...
But you haven't analysed the FACTS. SRAM is crap. Their products are
crap. They use plastic which is sooo weak. Steel is the future. How
do I know all of this? Because I read it on the Internet and everything
on the Internet is true. - Gianni "I've never ridden a bike"
Andrew Thorne
>
>Opinions are like assholes... everyone has one and they usually stink...
>Talking to this moron is like throwing eggs against a brick wall...
>Pointless and a waste of good eggs...
>
>Jimbo...tired of talking to the brain dead...(san)
Careful, Jimbo. Calling him a moron might make him write something truly
hurtful (and articluate) like: "shit fuck fuck shit mother die die die"
-Andrew
Joe Marshall
"BB" <bbAt...@acme.com> wrote in message
news:afslfn$gnnmr$1...@ID-130844.news.dfncis.de...
> On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:45:25 GMT, gianni_z wrote:
> >
> > I am right becouse I found a lot of negative reviews on mtbr.com, a
> > magazine can be wrong, but 30 or 40 persons can't be all wrong
>
> From what I've seen on mtbr.com, AT LEAST 30 or 40 persons could be wrong.
I love all the pedal reviews for really expensive flat pedals where there's
a feature that stops the pedal spinning much when you've not got your foot
on it. Very useful that is. The number of people who post reviews saying "I
spent $$$ on these pedals and they span really slowly right out of the box
don't go near them" rather than riding them a bit & finding out how useful
it is to have the platform still there when your foot goes flying and then
lands on the pedal again.
Joe
jimbosan
"Andrew Thorne" <andrewt...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> Careful, Jimbo. Calling him a moron might make him write something truly
> hurtful (and articluate) like: "shit fuck fuck shit mother die die die"
>
> -Andrew
I couldn't take it!! I am just getting over the tears of him telling me that
my derailuer is bad, bad plastic piece of garbage... Oh no here come the
tears again!!!!
Jimbo... Gianni get me a tissue...(san)
Carla A-G
news:ui66ijo...@corp.supernews.com...
This is getting out of control. Be nice to Mr. Ravioli...we all know he's a
little al dente...
- CA-G
Canadian Girls Kick Ass!
gianni_z
> have a steel one are if you a) want to bounce it off rocks a lot, b) are handy
> with a welding torch and want to build it yourself, or c) like the fact that
> what you are sailing is inherently sinkable.
>
sram brake levers bend when you brake!!!!!
it seems untrue, but it is true, I've just tried them in my lbs :-((
gianni_z
> You don't have data on this, do you. If you had a clue, you would have
> mentioned fracture toughness by now. But you haven't. What does "abrasion
> resistance" mean to a rear mech anyway?
there is no need for any data, I've just tried a bike with sram
gianni_z
> gianni_z wrote:
>
>
>>the plastic that sram uses has less tensile strengh, less shear -
>>abrasion - fatigue resistance
>
>
> THAN WHAT? Show me the test data from the resilient modulus testing
> to substantiate your claims.
>
there is no need for any data, I've just tried a bike with sram