1200 Twins in WSBK for 2008!
saddlebag
tomo...@erols.com
> http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/
Not surprised in the least. The FIM has always and will always cater
to European manufacturers where ever possible and practical. And
keeping Ducati involved in WSB is - from the FIM's viewpoint -
completely necessary.
It'll be interested to see if - after a season of Ducati being absent
as a factory team - AMA Superbike promulgates similar rules for twins
for 2008.
Bob Nixon
> http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/
Just more, "give the Italians what they want BS". A sad comantary for
one on one racing. IOW, more of the old Ducati Cup-two step routine to
once again ruin the WSB class. Let's hope AMA racing doesn't follow
suit.
Saddle, I know you're going to comeback with a comment about the 675
cheating too but at least, so far, Triumph is far from dominating the
SS classes. Hell, Triumph won't even support racing, let alone cheat
to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in
FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with
direct injection ect, now.
saddlebag
Some people see racing as some sort of religious experience wherein at
least one of the deities to be worshipped is engine displacement.
Myself, being a practical fellow, I see it as entertainment. To the
people responsible for making a buck from the spectacle, it's all
about getting butts in the seats or eyeballs on the screen. The more
manufacturers you can get in the show, the larger your potential
audience. Suzuki may be able to do the best with a 1000cc engine, but
from the dismal attendance it doesn't appear that too many care.
BTW, this isn't MotoGP, the WSBK are based on production motorcycles.
As it stands now, the twins are getting a break by being allowed to
use high dollar (light weight) engine pieces that the IL4s can't.
Ducatis main complaint is that it costs them a fortune to rebuild
their engines. As long as the bikes are built to fall within some
common power to weight tolerance I say drop the flag and enjoy the
show.
Oh, and please forgive my blasphomy to the engine displacement god.
~kurt
>
> to dominate a class. I say, lets go back to the 500cc two stroke in
> FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with
> direct injection ect, now.
Who cares if they run clean - MotoGP should be all 2-stroke.
- Kurt
saddlebag
TroytheTroll
"saddlebag" <sadd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1180392747.4...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Because they were BEASTS!!
Andrew
news:K4SdnVFDXvE05Mbb...@giganews.com...
I've only seen the 4strokes run in person; but they were pretty damn
impressive.
I've watched the local 250 races a couple of times; I prefer the booming 4
stroke sound.
The Kawi was coolest sounding of the 990's in person, IMO.
You could feel it deep down in your chest when Nakano was coming!
I haven't heard the 800's in person.
--
Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Infant
tomo...@erols.com
> "saddlebag" <saddle...@aol.com> wrote in message
So, you would bring them back but outlaw any traction management
technology?
Bob Nixon
>
> - Show quoted text
Certainly not Tim! 2-strokes would require traction management wven
more than thye current four strokes BECAUSE they WERE such BEASTS:)
TroytheTroll
<tomo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:1180403631.1...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Damn straight. I want to see the best man tame the wildest beast with no
electronic help of any kind.
tomo...@erols.com
> <tomor...@erols.com> wrote in message
I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and
LeMans style start for all races!
~kurt
>
> Because...
>
Because the elite riders should be riding the elite machines. 2-strokes
are pure race engines - simple yet very sophisticated. Plus, it further
separates MotoGP(500) hardware from WSB.
- Kurt
~kurt
>
> Certainly not Tim! 2-strokes would require traction management wven
> more than thye current four strokes BECAUSE they WERE such BEASTS:)
And no traction control either....
BTW, is it harder to implement traction control on a 2-stroke? Was it
just a coincidence that the 2-strokes met their demise a year or two before
traction control really became commonly used in the FIM GP? The technology
has been around for ages - did they just never apply it to 2-strokes for
some reason?
- Kurt
tomo...@erols.com
MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary
displacement rule, downsize the current MotoGP engines to 500cc. For
that matter, let's go back to having 500cc, 350cc, and 125cc GP
classes ... all four strokes. Think of the engines that Honda would
build. The mind boggles!
~kurt
>
> MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary
2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement
- therefore they are more pure.
- Kurt
saddlebag
Drum brakes and hard tails too!
saddlebag
> tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary
>
> 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement
> - therefore they are more pure.
Rocket propelled bikes are even purer.
TroytheTroll
>> >> > Because...
>>
>> >> Because they were BEASTS!!
>>
>> > So, you would bring them back but outlaw any traction management
>> > technology?
>>
>> Damn straight. I want to see the best man tame the wildest beast with no
>> electronic help of any kind.
>
> I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and
> LeMans style start for all races!
Now that I got a problem with. I remember watching old F1 races where some
poor guy is trying to bump start the silly thing, and guys are screaming by
him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the
people participating.
Kick start would work for me as long as everyone is safe while they are
trying to do it, but it seems like it would negate a superior rider
qualifying by actually RIDING rather than the quick start capabilities of
his motorcycle. I say qualify, and then give some reasonable advantage to
the guy who does best. Starting at the front of an otherwise equal starting
time like the current system seems about right. But the kick start would
really screw that up...maybe? Whats the space difference between one guy
starting on the first kick and someone starting on the third? Enough to lose
all advantage for having qualified best, for sure. And I think that should
count for more.
TroytheTroll
Why not just drop them all from 10,000' from the belly of a cargo plane and
see who hits the ground first. Award them the trophy and we can all run off
and watch AMA Superbike?
Larry xlax Lovisone
> http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/
1200c limit for WSBK is good for Ducati's CEO who gambled everything
on the slow and ponderous V2 but it's bad for the consumer who really
wants the choice of a powerful and a light weight V4 gleaned form the
MotoGp wars...
Larry L
94 RC45 #2
Have a wheelie NICE day...
Lean & Mean it in every corner of your life...
If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
Yank and bank your brains loose...
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/
http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/
http://www.fox302.com/index.pl?s=vg&user=netters2
http://www.reeky.org/gallery/xlax
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55532474@N00/?saved=1
TroytheTroll
> 1200c limit for WSBK is good for Ducati's CEO who gambled everything
> on the slow and ponderous V2 but it's bad for the consumer who really
> wants the choice of a powerful and a light weight V4 gleaned form the
> MotoGp wars...
Yeah, but they don't want old and underpowered ones, particular if the
entrance fee is 3X everyone elses entry fee.
~kurt
>
> Now that I got a problem with. I remember watching old F1 races where some
> poor guy is trying to bump start the silly thing, and guys are screaming by
> him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the
> people participating.
While I don't like LeMans style starts, electric starters and batteries are
just a waste of space and weight. The two-strokes are so light bump starting
them is easy enough. And anyone with the heavier 500 cc bike is going to
be able to afford an external starter (or make their own).
- Kurt
~kurt
I'd love to see someone build a rocket propelled bike that makes its way
around the track faster than a MotoGP bike. Really, I would. It would
be superior in some place like the salt flats, but that is it. Just like
the motorcycle with the jet engine in it is a piece of shit in terms of
overall performance. The internal combustion engine is your best bet
for that type of power over the speeds we are talking. The same thing
can be seen with aircraft. Turboprops outperform jet engines under certain
flight regimes.
If you want to build a raw, pure racebike, you drop the 4-stroke and
go with the 2-stroke.
- Kurt
tomo...@erols.com
> >> >> > Because...
>
> >> >> Because they were BEASTS!!
>
> >> > So, you would bring them back but outlaw any traction management
> >> > technology?
>
> >> Damn straight. I want to see the best man tame the wildest beast with no
> >> electronic help of any kind.
>
> > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and
> > LeMans style start for all races!
>
> Now that I got a problem with. I remember watching old F1 races where some
> poor guy is trying to bump start the silly thing, and guys are screaming by
> him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the
> people participating.
So are 500cc 2-strokes without traction control.
tomo...@erols.com
> If you want to build a raw, pure racebike, you drop the 4-stroke and
> go with the 2-stroke.
Well, opinions will vary on what a "raw, pure racebike" is, but the
fact of the matter is that the manufacturers will race what they feel
is in their best marketing interest to race.
Brutus
"~kurt" <actino...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MpO6i.14490$Ut6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Alright what if : no displacement limits OR fuel choice---100 lbs engine/trans restriction. 2
strokes, wankle or ???
Green class: no restrictions EXCEPT minimun fuel milage of 50 mpg using regular gas (87
octane)...Which engine technology wins ???
phil scott
> On May 28, 1:35 pm, saddlebag <saddle...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/
>
> to European manufacturers where ever possible and practical. And
> keeping Ducati involved in WSB is - from the FIM's viewpoint -
> completely necessary.
>
> It'll be interested to see if - after a season of Ducati being absent
> as a factory team - AMA Superbike promulgates similar rules for twins
> for 2008.
big v twins are a wonderful thang... like a good woman, its not how
fast in the end, its the quality experience over the long term that
counts.
Phil scott
phil scott
> On May 28, 11:35 am, saddlebag <saddle...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbike/37646/
>
> one on one racing. IOW, more of the old Ducati Cup-two step routine to
> once again ruin the WSB class. Let's hope AMA racing doesn't follow
> suit.
>
> Saddle, I know you're going to comeback with a comment about the 675
> cheating too but at least, so far, Triumph is far from dominating the
> SS classes. Hell, Triumph won't even support racing, let alone cheat
> FIM, I'm sure they can squeeze 200+ hp out of them and run clean with
> direct injection ect, now.
a two stroke is like a 2 dollar crack whore... fast, mean and
cheap...but not with any grace.
:)
Andrew
What about a Torquey electric motor?
saddlebag
> "~kurt" <actinouran...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:MpO6i.14490$Ut6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> > tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > > MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary
>
> > 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement
> > - therefore they are more pure.
>
> Alright what if : no displacement limits OR fuel choice---100 lbs engine/trans restriction. 2
> strokes, wankle or ???
>
> Green class: no restrictions EXCEPT minimun fuel milage of 50 mpg using regular gas (87
> octane)...Which engine technology wins ???
Speaking of Ducati big twins, has yours been burning up the Oregon
countryside lately?
Bob Nixon
> "~kurt" <actinouran...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>
> news:MpO6i.14490$Ut6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> > tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > > MotoGP engines are pure race engines. If it's just an arbitrary
>
> > 2-strokes will always have better power to weight and power to displacement
> > - therefore they are more pure.
>
> Alright what if : no displacement limits OR fuel choice---100 lbs engine/trans restriction. 2
> strokes, wankle or ???
>
> Green class: no restrictions EXCEPT minimun fuel milage of 50 mpg using regular gas (87
> octane)...Which engine technology wins ???
This is a great idea Brutus but I fear they'd just get lazy about it
and jerry rig a small turbo four stroke instead of modern two strokes
(closed crackcase, direct injected & turbo/supercharged)=(like Diesel
two strokes) or further development of Wankels (ceramic rotors/ceramic
coated rotor housings, better compression sealing, and shit kick a
cooling system altogether).
TroytheTroll
>
You'll know our electric future has arrived when people race electric
motored cages around the Brickyard. Give me my Tesla!!
TroytheTroll
>> > LeMans style start for all races!
>>
>> Now that I got a problem with. I remember watching old F1 races where
>> some
>> poor guy is trying to bump start the silly thing, and guys are screaming
>> by
>> him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the
>> people participating.
>
> So are 500cc 2-strokes without traction control.
You can't mitigate all risk in racing. Learning to manhandle a monster race
machine around the track is what the game is all about, not who can better
dodge oncoming high speed traffic.
~kurt
>
> Alright what if : no displacement limits OR fuel choice---100 lbs engine/trans restriction. 2
> strokes, wankle or ???
I'd be all for an unlimited international class where there are no
restrictions. The manufacturers wouldn't like it though - it would cost
way too much.
- Kurt
~kurt
>
> You'll know our electric future has arrived when people race electric
> motored cages around the Brickyard. Give me my Tesla!!
Electric powered vehicles probably won't make real gains until people
do start racing them.
- Kurt
~kurt
Maybe one day when they figure out how to power it for any length of time.
I'm sure it would lead to a much more simple engine and transmission (if it
even has a transmission). I'd be all for an electric motor - once they
figure out how to power it That will be about the same time we create
handheld (laser) blasters.
- Kurt
~kurt
> Well, opinions will vary on what a "raw, pure racebike" is, but the
> fact of the matter is that the manufacturers will race what they feel
> is in their best marketing interest to race.
I realize it is ultimately a matter of opinion, but in the end, if you
want the most power with the least weight - 2-stroke. I hear some of the
FIM GP 125 bikes are pushing 60 RWHP - that is pretty impressive.
- Kurt
Jamin
> The Kawi was coolest sounding of the 990's in person, IMO.
Agreed. It sounded menacing.
--
Jamin
"I don't want a pickle..."
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
TroytheTroll
Thats what I figured too.
tomo...@erols.com
You might want to read what the racers who ride Grand Prix motorcycles
have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just
that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT.
tomo...@erols.com
> tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote:
> > Well, opinions will vary on what a "raw, pure racebike" is, but the
> > fact of the matter is that the manufacturers will race what they feel
> > is in their best marketing interest to race.
>
> I realize it is ultimately a matter of opinion, but in the end, if you
> want the most power with the least weight - 2-stroke.
No argument if the ultimate goal is simply power to weight.
TroytheTroll
<tomo...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:1180492898.7...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Summary please. Did they appear to like it? Did they complain about how
unmanageable it was? Did they think knitting competitions would replace
racing, in the interests of making it safe for everyone but sheep?
I can't really say I have any skin in the game myself, as long as its mostly
fair, as long as better talent can make up for a slightly inferior machine,
and people are free to make their inferior machines less inferior for a
reasonable cost, and the more people who can run at the top levels the
better.
bsr...@my-deja.com
There are many that would like racing to be like a video game. Crash
and you pay for a new bike and hit reset. IMO part of racing is being
willing to risk the consequences of exceeding the limits. I have no
problem with traction control though. The better rider can still
prevail when everyone has it. Tame the beast too much and it will be
slow.
~kurt
>
> You might want to read what the racers who ride Grand Prix motorcycles
> have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just
> that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT.
Rossi also commented some time back that traction control is the only reason
some of the youngsters are able to come out there on their first year and
make such a huge impression. To quote Rossi from memory, "...zee 500, the
first time you are on it, it ees like, Fack!!!"
Personally, I would like to see an international 500cc 2-stroke class.
Let MotoGP continue with bleeding edge technology and electronics. But
have a brutal analog 2-stroke class out there. Despite what riders may
have to say about traction control and whatnot, I'm sure you won't find
any lack of willing riders.
One reason is WSB and MotoGP are just going to continue to converge over time
in terms of performance. Another is the 500GP riders are more god-like.
- Kurt
James Clark
Turbine-electric hybrid.
tomo...@erols.com
wrote:
> On May 29, 10:41 pm, "tomor...@erols.com" <tomor...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 29, 7:59 pm, "TroytheTroll" <f4_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > I agree. So, no electric starters, either. Kick-start only. Oh, and
> > > >> > LeMans style start for all races!
>
> > > >> Now that I got a problem with. I remember watching old F1 races where
> > > >> some
> > > >> poor guy is trying to bump start the silly thing, and guys are screaming
> > > >> by
> > > >> him already doing 100 mph. That sounds detrimental to the lifespan of the
> > > >> people participating.
>
> > > > So are 500cc 2-strokes without traction control.
>
> > > You can't mitigate all risk in racing. Learning to manhandle a monster race
> > > machine around the track is what the game is all about
>
> > You might want to read what the racers who ride Grand Prix motorcycles
> > have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just
> > that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT.
>
> There are many that would like racing to be like a video game. Crash
> and you pay for a new bike and hit reset.
Didn't say that. But, having raced at the club level and knowing what
happens when you crash, and having seen good people race hard, crash,
and be killed on the track, and having seen other good friends crash
and be permanently disabled, I could easily watch racing for the rest
of my life without ever seeing another crash and be perfectly happy.
> IMO part of racing is being
> willing to risk the consequences of exceeding the limits.
Yep. But there's no reason to intentionally make the consequences of
exceeding the limits more brutal than they have to be. IMO, outlawing
traction control is no different than outlawing air fences or back
protectors.
> I have no problem with traction control though. The better rider can still
> prevail when everyone has it.
I agree, 100%.
> Tame the beast too much and it will be slow.
There doesn't appear to be a danger of that at any level of motorcycle
roadracing.
tomo...@erols.com
> tomor...@erols.com <tomor...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > You might want to read what the racers who ride Grand Prix motorcycles
> > have to say about that. There was an interesting article about just
> > that three or four issues ago in RRW&MT.
>
> Rossi also commented some time back that traction control is the only reason
> some of the youngsters are able to come out there on their first year and
> make such a huge impression. To quote Rossi from memory, "...zee 500, the
> first time you are on it, it ees like, Fack!!!"
>
> Personally, I would like to see an international 500cc 2-stroke class.
> Let MotoGP continue with bleeding edge technology and electronics. But
> have a brutal analog 2-stroke class out there. Despite what riders may
> have to say about traction control and whatnot, I'm sure you won't find
> any lack of willing riders.
You certainly wouldn't. There's no shortage of bull fighters, either.
~kurt
>
> Turbine-electric hybrid.
>
I believe they have great potential for automobiles and larger
vehicles. Not so sure about motorcycles....
- Kurt
Bob Nixon
With all due respect Phil, I thought you were a smart feller at the
core. IOW, you don't know anything about two strokes other than the
old "weed eater" crankcase scavenged type of two stroke engine! There
are so many ways you can design a two stroke that it would boggle your
mind.
1) closed crankcase super+turbocharged variety. (intake ports and 4
exhaust valve)
2) same as above but identical to a DOHC four sttoke but with a blower/
turbocharger.
3) Two piston single two strokes (one's a pumper piston).
4) Newer versions (direct cylinder injected versions) of the old
crankcase scavenged two strokes but they're envirnmentally cleaner
than most four stoke. (search Evenrude's site for more info).
That was just a few!
On top of all this common two strokes have a resonant pressure exhaust
system that acts as a supercharger with no moving parts that also
makes them run cleaner. IOW, with a geometric compression ratio of
10:1 diregarding the exhaust port, this is reduced to 6-7:1 when the
exhaust port closure is considered. However, with a resonant expansion
chamber the compression ratio may go as high as the 14:1 or the limit
of spark ignited engines. And let's not forget the elegance of them
using both sides of the piston to do the same amount of work as a four
stroke engine.
With direct injection and good transfer port baffling of oil, modern
two strokes burn very little oil. In fact ,future models may go to a
dry sump oiling system instead of total loss lubrication.
Phil, these later models are not cheap $2 crack whores rather at least
as expensive to design and build as a DOHC 4 stroke engine.
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
my remarks were tongue in cheek, stemming from my experiences with the
450 husky, 360 bultaco (no one but malcom smith could ride the
husky...it was like riding a box full of hand grenades)...and a real
peice of crap the kwasaki 750cc triple.... and of course my
predilection to 4 stroke thumpers and that world class american iron,
buell... the worlds fastest, best handling production motorcycle.
hope that heps.
Having said that, nothing can beat HD on the mile dirt ovals.... too
much raw power, and charisma :)... those tin can smokers were just a
passing fad...thats why they were outlawed.
Phil Scott
Andrew
news:1180553813....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> ...peice of crap the kwasaki 750cc triple.... >
I have a piece of crap kwaker 500 triple in the garage. :-)
> Having said that, nothing can beat HD on the mile dirt ovals.... too
> much raw power, and charisma :)... those tin can smokers were just a
> passing fad...thats why they were outlawed.
>
Did you see this?
http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=10870
Paul Elliot
We need to get Doc to make us a "Mr. Fusion" generator.
--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.
Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.
TroytheTroll
> With all due respect Phil, I thought you were a smart feller at the
> core.
Oh Bob.....are you SERIOUS?! Heck, I thought it didn't take longer than his
first "layin'er down" episode to get Filbert figured out, and then all his
anal probing enjoyment stories and china.com investment advice pretty much
sealed the deal.
Andrew
news:hsydnR8Q2uN4nsPb...@giganews.com...
china.com; forgot about that one. :-)