OT: Comprehensive ZR1 article ~$110,000 and has the only production pushrod engine to exceed 100HP/liter
Bob Nixon
It is supercharged with intercooling and is designed to handle the
10PSI of boost pressure on premium gasoline. However like the $500,000
Bugatti, $150,000 Ferrari 599 & other $$cages is still destroyed by a
$10,000 liter sportbike in every respect expect top speed and creature
comforts.
Bob..
Tim M.
... the ZR1 will stop from 60 mph in a current production car record
breaking 96 feet.
Just out of curiosity, which $10,000 liter sportbike stops from 60mph
in less than 96 feet? Them's good brakes!
BryanUT
When I was working corners for the AMA tire test at Miller when it
first open, Alan Wilson and his wife stopped at my corner to observe.
Alan had designed the track and his wife is an accomplished driver,
they both commented on how early the bikes were braking compared to
the cars.
I think it is a well known fact that cars can stop faster than bikes.
Tim M.
On the street, I can go around corners faster in my Miata (weighs
about 2300 pounds and has about 100 rwhp) than I can my S4Rs (weighs
423 pounds and has 132 rwhp), so it is hard for me to comprehend how
the Corvette ZR1 is "destroyed" by any current liter bike. Beaten in
a straight line acceleration contest? Sure. Beaten on a twisting
public road with real world hazards to deal with? Not by me, not on
ANY motorcycle. Beaten on a roadracing course? I think we've seen
comparison tests that show that contest to be pretty damn close and
that it can go either way.
At Summit Point (main) my son ran 1:30 laps at the end of the season
in his racing Miata (2160 pounds and 108 rwhp) while I ran an all-time
best of 1:26 on my old EX500 "Superbike" weighing 357 pounds and
having 61.5 rwhp. I had much higher acceleration out of turns and
higher top speed, he braked later and entered turns faster, carried
more speed through the corners. Same approximate thing would happen
with a Corvette and a 1198R; just everything at higher speeds, that's
all. With talented rider and driver, I would expect both to be in
the 1:10 to 1:15 range; neither one "destroying" the other.
Bob Nixon
> On Dec 15, 10:52 am, BryanUT <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 14, 10:41 pm, "Tim M." <tomorrowaterolsdot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 15, 12:21 am, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_ZR1
>
> > > > It is supercharged with intercooling and is designed to handle the
> > > > 10PSI of boost pressure on premium gasoline. However like the $500,000
> > > > Bugatti, $150,000 Ferrari 599 & other $$cages is still destroyed by a
> > > > $10,000 liter sportbike in every respect expect top speed and creature
> > > > comforts.
>
> > > > Bob..
>
> > > ... the ZR1 will stop from 60 mph in a current production car record
> > > breaking 96 feet.
>
> > > Just out of curiosity, which $10,000 liter sportbike stops from 60mph
> > > in less than 96 feet? Them's good brakes!
>
> > When I was working corners for the AMA tire test at Miller when it
> > first open, Alan Wilson and his wife stopped at my corner to observe.
> > Alan had designed the track and his wife is an accomplished driver,
> > they both commented on how early the bikes were braking compared to
> > the cars.
>
> > I think it is a well known fact that cars can stop faster than bikes.
Not so if the bike is running slicks, Bryan.
> On the street, I can go around corners faster in my Miata (weighs
> about 2300 pounds and has about 100 rwhp) than I can my S4Rs (weighs
> 423 pounds and has 132 rwhp), so it is hard for me to comprehend how
> the Corvette ZR1 is "destroyed" by any current liter bike. Beaten in
> a straight line acceleration contest? Sure. Beaten on a twisting
> public road with real world hazards to deal with? Not by me, not on
> ANY motorcycle. Beaten on a roadracing course? I think we've seen
> comparison tests that show that contest to be pretty damn close and
> that it can go either way.
Not so Tim. A GSXR-1000 several years ago beat a Z06 by a consistent 8
seconds a lap on some famous track (i forget). Also Tim, I know
you're an East coast boy and all but I've NEVER let a cage beat me at
TTF on my GSXR-1000K3 back before the deer accident. Had there been
-0- traffic then they might have but they're too wide and accelerate
too slow to safely pass other cages on the road.
> At Summit Point (main) my son ran 1:30 laps at the end of the season
> in his racing Miata (2160 pounds and 108 rwhp) while I ran an all-time
> best of 1:26 on my old EX500 "Superbike" weighing 357 pounds and
> having 61.5 rwhp. I had much higher acceleration out of turns and
> higher top speed, he braked later and entered turns faster, carried
> more speed through the corners. Same approximate thing would happen
> with a Corvette and a 1198R; just everything at higher speeds, that's
> all. With talented rider and driver, I would expect both to be in
> the 1:10 to 1:15 range; neither one "destroying" the other.
My impression is that only cages of the F1 or Cart variety or other
cages with downforce designed in are faster than factory set-up liter
reps on any give race track.
Bob..
Bob Nixon
All of the liter reps if you throw a set of DOT slicks warmed up on
them-:)
BTW TIM, overall the ZR1 ZO6 is awesome for a cage, so posting the
article was a compliment directed at YOU as you seemed to greatly
anyicipate it's arrival, so nit picking an overall complimentary post
just makkes you appear to me as an ass or same as you did with that
small block "model 327 engine". In which YOU proved to be wrong about
a Chevy 327's stroke actually being 3.25 not 3.75 as you stated. IOW,
lighten up on me just a tad dude; we're both on the same side in terms
of the big picture-:)
Bob..
Joey Tribiani
"BryanUT" <nest...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8eb49373-35f2-4a83...@15g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
>I think it is a well known fact that cars can stop faster than bikes.
only among serious gear heads... the myth that motorcycles stop "much"
faster than *any* car is very widespread.... had a fellow tell me the other
day that his 70's era 500cc motorcycle with drum brakes would stop faster
than a modern corvette... he found it odd when I laughed at that, he really
believes it...<shrug>
he got even more pissy when he said it would take a curve faster than said
corvette, and I laughed again...
Steve Mackay
> On Dec 15, 9:21 am, "Tim M."<tomorrowaterolsdot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 15, 10:52 am, BryanUT<nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 14, 10:41 pm, "Tim M."<tomorrowaterolsdot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Dec 15, 12:21 am, Bob Nixon<bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_ZR1
>>
>>>>> It is supercharged with intercooling and is designed to handle the
>>>>> 10PSI of boost pressure on premium gasoline. However like the $500,000
Your impression is off...
http://www.flixxy.com/car-vs-motorcycle.htm
Steve Mackay
>> On Dec 15, 10:52 am, BryanUT<nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 14, 10:41 pm, "Tim M."<tomorrowaterolsdot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Dec 15, 12:21 am, Bob Nixon<bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_ZR1
>>
>>>>> It is supercharged with intercooling and is designed to handle the
>>>>> 10PSI of boost pressure on premium gasoline. However like the $500,000
Also...
Nurburgring lap times of the $10K literbikes
Suzuki GSXR600 "project bike" 7:17(19,100 m lap)
MV Agusta F4 R 312 7:21.8(19,100 m lap)
Yamaha R1 7:28.8(19,100 m lap)
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 7:26.4(20,832 m lap)
This time LOOKS close, but according to the Wikipedia site.
"British motorcycle magazine Performance Bikes Magazine began testing
their bikes in a regular feature at the Nordschleife in March 2007 and
finished in December 2007. Bikes were tested by Dale Lomas and a
character named only as The Baron. As with sport auto, all machines
tested are road-legal (albeit in the UK) and shod with road-legal
Bridgestone BT002 Pro Race tyres. To date there are 28 lap times
published in the regular feature. As motorcycles are forbidden to
participate in industry pool sessions and after-hours test sessions,
Performance Bikes were forced to test during quiet mid-week tourist
sessions, where speed limits apply in some sections. This means their
lap times are measured from bridge to gantry (see below) and are
approximately 22 seconds shorter than a full 20.832 km (12.944 mi)
Nordschleife lap."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times
The Corvette EASILY beats the liter bikes when all things being equal.
On a side note, notice that the MV has the fastest time of the stock
bikes? :)
Bruce Hartweg
Generally I'm a bike over car guy, but "every respect except top
speed and comfort is a stretch" Braking comes up in other subthreads
and while someone good might stop a bike as fast, it is far more likely
that it won't stop as fast, or trying to stop fast will land the rider
on his face ;) Also, ogin around corners fast is another area where
the physics of car v bike is a big limiter (I saw Top gear once where
some German chick was lapping Nurburgring in a big 'ol cargo van and
was passing bikes left and right.)
Bruce
Steve Lusardi
Please verify your statements before submission.
Steve
"Bob Nixon" <bigre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:58596ed5-1d87-431e...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Bob Nixon
Steve, I've seen this one before:
1) R1 rider is a nobody, don't know about the Porsche driver.
2) Notice the stock rubber on the R-1. My assertion is that the bike
be handicapped for it's "only two wheels" using racing slicks.
3) The test appears to be set-up for a cage magazine.
4) What ever happened to that test I quoted with a GSXR-1000 vs Z06
and yes it was a bike magazine and the GSXR was doing 8 seconds a lap
faster? It was based on either a Cycle World, Sport Rider or
Motorcyclist in the 2003-2006 time frame.
Bob..
Bob Nixon
Slicks on the bike Bruce & sure a "regular in a tourist van" is going
to do better than Joe Shmow on his street bike. If you push a cage too
fast it will most likely spin out but play in unknown territory with
dubious riding skills and the results could be fatal. BTW, I have a
Bosnian born friend who has ridden Nurburgring a couple of rimes in a
cage but I've always been able to smoke him, car or bike out in the
canyon and he's NEVER EVEN ridden a track day.
Bob..
Tim M.
Sorry if you think my responding to your post makes me appear to be an
ass.
I don't believe I've ever stated that I am an expert on the bore and
stroke of the various iterations of the Chebby small block V8. As I
recall, I was simply asking for help in figuring out the reason why a
1/6 scale model engine had a geometrically smaller displacement than
1/6 that of the engine that it was modelling. I believe that question
was answered, too.
Lighten up? All I asked was if the car was destroyed by the bikes (as
you claimed) in braking.
I've raced bikes on D.O.T. race rubber BACK TO BACK with the exact
same bike on pure racing slicks. I recall ZERO startling differences
in braking performance, so I am at a loss as to how spooning on race
slicks is going to greatly change the relative braking performance of
a modern sporting liter bike wrt that of a Corvette ZR1.
BryanUT
> On Dec 15, 9:21 am, "Tim M." <tomorrowaterolsdot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 15, 10:52 am, BryanUT <nestl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 14, 10:41 pm, "Tim M." <tomorrowaterolsdot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 15, 12:21 am, Bob Nixon <bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_ZR1
>
> > > > > It is supercharged with intercooling and is designed to handle the
> > > > > 10PSI of boost pressure on premium gasoline. However like the $500,000
> > > > > Bugatti, $150,000 Ferrari 599 & other $$cages is still destroyed by a
> > > > > $10,000 liter sportbike in every respect expect top speed and creature
> > > > > comforts.
>
> > > > > Bob..
>
> > > > ... the ZR1 will stop from 60 mph in a current production car record
> > > > breaking 96 feet.
>
> > > > Just out of curiosity, which $10,000 liter sportbike stops from 60mph
> > > > in less than 96 feet? Them's good brakes!
>
> > > When I was working corners for the AMA tire test at Miller when it
> > > first open, Alan Wilson and his wife stopped at my corner to observe.
> > > Alan had designed the track and his wife is an accomplished driver,
> > > they both commented on how early the bikes were braking compared to
> > > the cars.
>
> > > I think it is a well known fact that cars can stop faster than bikes.
>
> Not so if the bike is running slicks, Bryan.
>
The bikes at Miller were doing tire tests using racing slicks, the
braking point was being observed by the track designer and his wife,
an accomplished driver.
No doubt performance bikes stop quite fast, but not as fast as
performance cars.
AlF
> I think it is a well known fact that cars can stop faster than bikes.
I remember who Rossi was impressed with F1 braking power. But it is
apples to oranges and all depends on the shape of the track.
For instance, I checked lap times on the very twisty track I rode a few
times. All for very strong amateur racers. Lap record set by a bike was
1:07 while breaking 1:20 by a good car/driver is quite a challenge.
There are tracks where opposite is true.
AlF
...
Actually the fastest production car on the planet earth as of today is
Shelby super Car http://www.shelbysupercars.com/ powered by pushrod
engine. Is not that ironic? Or interesting in fact.
And Vette - this is my dream car - waiting until prices of early C6 will
drop to the range I am willing to pay for a cage.
Was checking out Boxter - but there is something missing in them. They
have soul but miss a hart sort of speaking
Bob Nixon
> Bob Nixon wrote:
>
> ...
>
> Actually the fastest production car on the planet earth as of today is
> engine. Is not that ironic? Or interesting in fact.
ALF, I looked but could not find (in the specs anyway) where it says
it's a push-rod engine. Then all that push-rod really means is that
the cam (cams) are in the block, not the heads. The BWM boxer oilhead
and the 10,000RPM Honda CX500-650 used 4 valve short push-rods as do
the Detroit 2 stroke Diesels with the twin cams (one side is a counter
balance shaft, the other the cam) on the V engines just below the
block deck and 2" roller tappet adjusters for the four exhaust valves
and fuel injector rockers. (see photos below). These only run at
2800RPM but their two strokes or 1:1 drive cams.
http://bigrex.net/pictures/53-DD-pics/
> And Vette - this is my dream car - waiting until prices of early C6 will
> drop to the range I am willing to pay for a cage.
>
> Was checking out Boxter - but there is something missing in them. They
> have soul but miss a hart sort of speaking
Bob..
Steve Mackay
Yeah, he's a "nobody" that's only won the British Superbike series 3
times<eye roll>
> 2) Notice the stock rubber on the R-1. My assertion is that the bike
> be handicapped for it's "only two wheels" using racing slicks.
The Porsche is using street tires as well<shrug>
And keep in mind, the Corvette is considerably FASTER than this
particular Porsche.
> 3) The test appears to be set-up for a cage magazine.
The test appears to be quite fair assessment to the real world.
> 4) What ever happened to that test I quoted with a GSXR-1000 vs Z06
> and yes it was a bike magazine and the GSXR was doing 8 seconds a lap
> faster? It was based on either a Cycle World, Sport Rider or
> Motorcyclist in the 2003-2006 time frame.
Don't know, I've never seen it.
The only place the bikes will beat cars is in a straight line. It's a
matter of physics Bob.
Steve Mackay
> On Dec 15, 12:10 pm, Bob Nixon<bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 14, 10:41 pm, "Tim M."<tomorrowaterolsdot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 15, 12:21 am, Bob Nixon<bigrex2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette_ZR1
>>
>>>> It is supercharged with intercooling and is designed to handle the
>>>> 10PSI of boost pressure on premium gasoline. However like the $500,000
You experiences mirror my buddy's as well. The current crop of high
performance street rubber is exceptional.
My Buddy won an ASRA team challenge & a Supertwins race on a bone stock
1125R, complete with the DOT Pirelli Corsa IIIs. He said the only
difference between the Corsa IIIs and his Pirelli race slicks is he
drifted a bit on the carousel. This was at Road America
Bob Nixon
Baloney, Steve, your own numbers in the test you listed below says
they are about the same or the low 7teens to 725 for non downforce
cages vs the bikes and the daytime speed retrictions put on the bikes
more than makes up for the 20 seconds shorter course. And I'll find
that article of the GSXR vs the Z06 with the GSXR 8 seconds a lap
faster. I think now it was at the big Willow Springs track (not
streets of willow) out in the CA desert.
Bob..
Tim M.
At Summit Point, the absolute motorcycle lap record was set by Jeff
Wood this past August 29 during an ASRA Pro Unlimited GP race (on
slicks) at 1:11.4.
The current SCCA GT1 Summit Point lap record of 1:11.294 was set by
Amy Ruman on 5/18/08 in a Chevrolet Corvette.
Bob Nixon
Motorcycle Message Board - Motorcycle USA
BTW, a while back Cycle World did a bike/car comparo with exactly
those tests... Motorcyclist did this comparo last year between the
GSXR-1000 and a Z06 Corvette. ...
Here is a hint that the test existed and I didn't just pull it out of
my ass. I looked through all the NC rags that I didn't throw out and
couldn't find the shootout nor could I find it online.
Bob..
Tim M.
Bob, afaik, no one has said or insinuated that the test didn't exist;
in fact, I don't think anyone has even contradicted your assertion
that the bike won the test. Hell, I've read several such tests over
the years, and I can't recall the specific results. I do recall
general crowing and jubilation that the motorcycle was always a much
better performance "bang for the buck" than the sports car it was
compared to. I don't think anyone disputes that, either.
I guess it all comes back to the question of "absolutes." I don't
think that one motorcycle brand or style is absolutely better than
another, and I don't think that motorcycles in general are absolutely
better than cars, or that cars are absolutely better than trucks, or
that... well, you get the picture. For each particular car or bike
or truck, there is a situation where it excels and others do not, and
vice versa. What I have spent my automotive, motorcycle, and truck
buying dollars on, over the years, is buying the most bang for the
buck for what *I* want, need, desire, use, and enjoy, a motorcycle,
car, or truck for, for me. That way I find the vehicle that makes ME
smile the most when I ride or drive it, and that's the only "absolute'
in the equation that matters to me in the final analysis. I don't
expect others to have the same equation, and if they all did, what a
boring world it would be.
AlF
> ALF, I looked but could not find (in the specs anyway) where it says
> it's a push-rod engine.
>
It is mentioned here it got Corvette engine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSC_Aero
is not that pushrod design?
A.
Bob Nixon
Thanks for the link. It appears to be a 6.35 liter Aluminum Chevy SB
based push-rod engine design but as I tried to explain, pictures & all
of a 2 stroke diesel engine that was very close to being single OHC
engine but had the cams in the very top of the block and that there
were a couple of motorcycle engines with (short) pushrods, one with a
10,000 RPM red-line (CX-500-650). The reason for that pictured engine
to have a near SOHC was that for the 4 exhaust valves to open scavenge
then close in just 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. A four cycle
engine has at least twice that much time for each valve actuation.
Hell, with a DOHC two stroke Diesel or gas with direct injection and a
blower+turbo there are also intake valve "opening (not just a webbed
port at BDC of the stroke) and closing" to just 45-50 degrees of crank
rotation to get the cylinder scavenged (exhaust gases out and fresh
air in) For this reason a DOHC two stroke engine is doable but not
practical at speeds over 4000RPM or = to 16,000 four stroke RPM.
However in this case of [1]1,100+HP or almost 200HP/ liter in a very
expensive car, one has to ask how long such a large gasoline engine
would last with "an in dashboard" variable boost waste-gate control
for the twin Turbo's. IOW, it's one thing for a Compression ignition
(Diesel engine) to withstand 2-3bars (30-45lbs) of boost because
Diesels love turbo's up to the point they self destruction but the
nature of a spark ignited engines (gasoline powered) is that there are
octane constraints on the upper end of boost to something like 10-11
lbs boost inter-cooled with an innate compression ratio of 8-9 to1
ratio, else the engine will self destruct via detonation unless some
non leaded form of octane booster is used. Supposedly, a "3 to 4" bore
gasoline engine is limited to an ultimate compression"boosted math" or
not to a ratio of 14 to 15:1 on methanol based fuel or old 115-145
octane aviation gasoline that is TET (tetra-ethyl-lead) booster fuel.
That was discovered & used in old piston aircraft engines that were
boosted for extra take off power and high altitude power operation
during and after WWII. With water or Water alcohol ejection added for
high take-off HP without ruining the engines.
[1] A 600cc MC engine has 200HP/liter but run at >15,000RPM, has a big
cam overlap and a small bore thus detonation has less time to happen
as the flame front moves to the edge or the bore.Bigger engines have a
couple of things going against them or larger bore more friction
surface area and proportionally less/slower heat dissipation due to
the larger mass.BTW, FI 18,000RPM car engines are what? 2.4 liters
and naturally aspirated ever since they switched from 1.5 liter
>1000HP turbocharged fours many years back.
I hope this clears up my points on this >250MPH production car. See ya
riding over the holidays Andy. I got a new rear tire for my SV that I
have to change before the weekend.
Bob..
Bob Nixon
Tim, thanks for your patience with me on this one. I guess because
buying a Vette or Ferrari or whatever is so far out of my financial
situation at this time in my life that I automatically dismiss a four
wheeled vehicle as nothing more than a practicle form of
transportation. It's a practical vehicle and motorcycles are not but
cheap and perform much better per $$ and are generally more fun to
ride/drive and the mere dangers of said keep most from riding even
relatively high performance motorcycles. Hell, how does one expect me
to justify all my broken bones over the last 45+ years, anyway-:)
Bob..
Tim M.
I think that enjoying riding for 45+ years is more than justification
in and of itself!