The Word Became Flesh - Meaning ...?
John Gardner
on the dwelling of Elohim with His people. The following is a post from a
recent thread, "Re: Jesus, Messiah, not a deity". To state the obvious: I
don't claim to have all the answers, and I offer this post in love, with the
goal of edification and/or stimulation:
Let's get this straight! I certainly don't deny the Incarnation of the Word
of YHWH in the man, Yeshua: Jn. 1:14: "And the Word became flesh and
pitched his tent among us, and we saw his esteem, esteem as of an only
brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth". (The Scriptures,
1998). But I don't believe that the Incarnation was the focal point of
Yeshua's ministry -- nor was it a revelation of some 2-in-1 or 3-in-one
Mystery that redefines monotheism and/or separates believers from the lost.
The real question is, Who, or What, was incarnated in Yeshua?
In John 10:29, Yeshua calls the Father the Greatest Person/Power in the
universe. He says, "The Father is greater than all" -- meaning, if you
respect either koine Greek or the translation languages, that Yeshua is
"less great" than YHWH in position and all other attributes -- since all
Yeshua's attributes are said to come/originate from the Father. The Greek
word for "greater" is meizon (Strong 3187) meaning "greater", "larger",
"stronger" or Elder". Yeshua -- as you have pointed out, Snow --
acknowledges the "Greater YHWH" as His own Elohim or Superior: John 20:17,
Revelation 3:12. Speaking of His own existence both before and after
Bethlehem, the Messiah Yeshua says in John 13:16 that the Servant -- in this
case the Suffering Servant of YHWH -- is not greater than the One who sent
Him. That is plain and simple! In literal Greek this verse reads "Neither
is the apostle or YHWH's messenger (Malach) greater or the elder of Him who
sent Him." Yeshua said in John 13:17, "Blessed are you if you know these
teachings!"
What teachings must we know? That (1) the Father is always greater than
Yeshua; but that (2) Yeshua, the Lesser YHWH, is fully and equally YHWH in
that He is, and has, all that the Father is and has, having received all
from the Father. Neither Yeshua nor any apostolic writer (whether Sha'ul be
included or not - a topic for later discussion) says that the subordination
of Yeshua to YHWH is limited to the period between Bethlehem and Golgotha.
That's theologian talk! It's not Scripture talk!! Malachi 3:6 tells us that
YHWH does not change. Hebrews 13:8 declares that Yeshua's status is the same
for all eternity, past, present, and future. This scripture should be read,
and understood, with John 14:28. The sense is that neither YHWH nor the
Word/Yeshua change throughout eternity: always and forever, YHWH the Lesser
submits in love to YHWH the Elder. Too bad many of the theorists of
"Christianity" overlook the words of Yeshua himself as reiterated in John
15:20, where He commands His disciples: "Remember the [this] word that I
said to you."
The teaching of (1) the subordination of the Sent One/D'var YHWH/Moshiach to
the Sender, YHWH, but (2) both the Sent One and the Sender being part of
Elohim echad, was well known to the ancients of Israel. See Exodus 24:1-2,
Psalm 110:1-5, Ezekiel 10:1-2, Ezekiel 1:19-28, Daniel 7:9,13,14 and many
other places. In Genesis 19:23, we see the "Sent YHWH" or "YHWH HaKatan"
calling to His Elohim, YHWH the Greater, YHWH HaGadol, who SENT Him to
destroy the cities of the plains. The ancient sages of Israel referred to
the Lesser and Greater YHWH. The Lesser YHWH appeared to prophets such as
Ezekiel in Ezekiel 1:28, as He did later on earth to his disciples. (Zohar,
Shemot Section 2. p. 126). Yeshua did not come to earth with a new
revelation! He was reiterating Old Testament truth, confirming the ancient
(and Biblically sound) understanding that (1) the Greater YHWH sends the
Lesser YHWH, and (2) the Sent One is the One chosen by the Sender to carry
the Sender's Divine Name: Zohar Amsterdam Edition p. 114 Col 1. Yeshua
reiterates in Jn. 17:12 that He "is carrying" the divine name of YHWH, to
deliver it to the disciples, to "guard" them. In ancient Jewish thought, the
Lesser YHWH was known as the "Guardian of Israel". By referring to himself
in this way, Yeshua self-identified with the Lesser YHWH. As His disciples
(particularly, His Torah-honouring disciples), we must take Yeshua as He
revealed Himself to us -- not as we might choose to recreate Him in our
image, after the likeness of our doctrinal theologies!
I haven't studied this in depth, but I believe the earliest Messianics were
like-minded on the "issue" (if so it be) of the "Greater YHWH" and "Lesser
YHWH". Epiphaneus states that the early Believers were "just like the Torah
keeping Jews" and differed in no way from their accepted practices:
Parnarion Eusebius Section 29,7. 1-9:5. If this is so, the Israelite
disciples of Yeshua were no different than their non-believing Jewish
counterparts in most ways. Because of these Messianic Torah beliefs, the
Nazarenes were considered heretics along with another similar group by the
name of the Cerinthians, named after Cerinthus, a born again believer who
followed Torah. And what did his group believe?
According to Epiphaneus, they believed the same thing the early Nazarenes
believed. They believed in Messiah Yahshua, Torah and a view of Elohim that
held that the world was not created by the Supreme Deity but by a certain
power emanating from Him. Epiphaneus 2:29:1 affirms that the Nazarenes and
Cerinthians held common views on the true Creator emanating from the Supreme
One. According to this historian, he couldn't say who came first, the
Nazarenes or Cerinthians, but they held similar beliefs: Epiphanius Panarion
2:29.
Irenaeus, an anti-Nazarene "Church" father (130-200 CE) says that the
Cerinthians/Nazarenes taught that "the world was not made by the primary God
[sic] but by a certain power from Him, and at a distance from the
Principality who is Supreme over the Universe...": Irenaeus, The Refutation
Of All Heresies Chapter 20 p. sec 1 p351-352. Also, he said: "But a certain
Cerinthus himself being discipled in the teachings of the Egyptians,
asserted that the world was not made by the Primal Deity, but by some virtue
which was an offshoot [Branch/Tzemach/Messiah] Power, which is above all
things." (Ibid, p. 114.). The idea of a Lesser YHWH, still YHWH but above
all powers, thrones, dominions, principalities, having proceeded forth from
YHWH the Greater, was so common among Yahshua's disciples in the Nazarene,
Ebonite and Cerinthians Torah Messianic communities, that all these
Messianic groups were labeled as heretics by the "church fathers." Methinks
not much has changed!
I hope this will be somewhat helpful in clarifying my understanding of the
Incarnation. To my fellow Torah, keepers, le chaim! on the 3rd night of
Chanukka! To my fellow avadim & talmidim/talmidot of Yeshua HaMoshiah, Amen!
Come quickly, Lord Moshiach!
John/Jochanan.
vince garcia
SNIP
You can post all the words you want, and use whatever hebrew terms you
like, but if your point is to deny that JESUS is fully God and fully
man, you have a false messiah, and we Christians are told not even to
wish you a good day.
There is nothing edifying about your post; it is messianic false
teaching, trying to keep people in deception, or else get them to leave
the REAL messiah in order to accept a false messiah who is less than
fully God.
Oh--and i know of no one named "sha'ul"
Your messianic re-creation of PAUL in your own messianic image, your
appealing to the Zohar to validate your doctrine, and your using the
name YESHUA in order to deny the what the real JESUS are despicable
examples of satan trying to promote the false gospel of the Judaisers
Paul fought so tirelessly against.
I wish you would pull out your circumcision knife, and castrate yourself
John Gardner
(Matthew 10:14; Mark 6:11; Luke 9:5).
John/Jochanan
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B26B6...@ix.netcom.com...
vince garcia
>
> (the sound of shaking dust off feet.)
Back at you, false teacher.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one
from the mount Sinai, which
gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem
which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was
born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her
son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the
freewoman.
That refers to YOU, judaiser!
John Gardner
(Matthew 10:14; Mark 6:11; Luke 9:5).
John/Jochanan
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B26CA...@ix.netcom.com...
Snow
> I haven't studied this in depth, but I believe the earliest Messianics were
> like-minded on the "issue" (if so it be) of the "Greater YHWH" and "Lesser
> YHWH".
Mat 6:9 “This, then, is the way you should pray: ‘Our Father who is in
the heavens, let Your Name be set-apart,
Where was the Father while the son was on earth?
Isa 42:8 I am YAHWEH: that is my name: and my esteem will I not give
to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Snow
and we Christians are told not even to
> wish you a good day.
Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
persecuting you,
vince garcia
titus 3:
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and
strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition
reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being
condemned of himself.
2 john
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him
not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
vince garcia
Paul was a false prophet, Christ was not God in flesh, the greek NT must
be rejected and we must reconstruct it from hebrew to know the truth,
the NT madates torah observance for gentiles, that Jesus is coming back
to re-institute a levitical priesthood and a temple conducting animal
sacrifices--and many more crap doctrines like that--are a minority in
the Messianic movement; and most messianics have orthodox evangelical or
fundamentalist beliefs.
I hope that's true, because the only messianics I seem to see in
newsgroups are those fit for destruction: teaching judaising heresy,
rejecting Christ's deity, and denying essential after essential of the
REAL Christian faith.
John Gardner
of Holies? Where was YHWH in the theophanies of the Tanach - e.g. Gen. 18:1?
In Heaven? Yes. On earth & visible? Yes. In a sense that I decribed as
"Lesser" in previous posting -- yet authentic and vital to faith.
It seems clear to me that the Father, YHWH, is quite capable of manifesting
Himself in a light, in a pillar of fire/cloud, as an "angelic" visitor (or 3
visitors), and finally in the form of a Son, without detracting at all from
his majestic omnipresence. Heb. 1:1.
You asked about prayer. We pray as Yeshua taught us to pray -- to Our Father
in Heaven. We don't mean by this (I hope we don't mean!) that YHWH is
somehow confined to our human notion of "Heaven as a place". We feel, and we
ought to feel, that He is immediate to us; He hears our praises & our
prayers; He informs our studies; He revives our souls. Yet He remains "in
Heaven"!!
I am a montheist. I am confident that you, Snow, are also a monotheist. That
means, among other things, that the esteem we ascribe to YHWH does not ever,
and must not ever, go to another! That, in a nutshell, is why Yeshua went
about Galilee and Judea turning men's hearts to the Father -- and that is
why He did NOT demand, or even hint, that they should worship Him, the man,
Yeshua, as God, or as God the Son.
The analogy between Yeshua and the Shekhina light is not perfect, but I
think it's useful. On one hand, it was definitely taught, and believed, that
YHWH really dwelled - tabernacled - in the Ohel Moed, and later in the
Temple -- even though it was recognized that not even the heavens, or the
heavens of teh heavens, could REALLY contain YHWH. On the other hand, the
Israelites did not WORSHIP the Shekhina. That would be idolatry!
I don't know if the foregoing addresses your question. If not, you could
maybe rephrase. I'm not shy of terms like "Incarnation" <if you don't go
beyond John 1:14> but I have no use at all for conceptions like "the God
Man", or "God the Son", which are IMHO best applied to mythical figures like
Hercules and the various tribes of Greek demi-gods. Neither my God (YHWH)
nor my Lord (Yeshua) have anything in common with these monstrous
miscegenations of Hellenic hocus-pocus.
Yours alliteratively,
John/Jochanan.
"Snow" <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:b16bee42-126d-4d69...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Snow
The answer I sought was that YAHWEH is in all places and in the hearts
of all his children which does not limit YAHWEH to a single
incarnation when for all I know, I met YAHWEH yesterday and didn't
even know it.
If we make the mistake of saying Yehoshua was YAHWEH incarnate, we are
in fact limiting that which is unlimited. To say he manifested the
spirit of YAHWEH recognizes that while Yehoshua was in Israel, YAHWEH
was still all powerful and in the hearts and minds of all his children
at the same time.
"Incanate" creates an image of idolotry that Christians think to
praise and worship and that is why the word we choose to represent
Yehoshua is so important for I would not desire that I lead any man to
false worship when the Good News makes it clear, ELOHIM IS SPIRIT.
Joh 6:63 “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh does not profit
at all. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and are life."
The word is LIFE but only in the spirit.
If you would like to comment on this, feel free to add them to this
web page.
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua/web/removing-the-name-of-yhwh
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- please join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is
really true, there would be little hope of advance.
Orville Wright
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James for E-sword
http://www.e-sword.net/ Free bible software
If history is any indication, all truths will eventually turn out to
be false.
Dean Kamen
> "Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
Gardner
even know it."
May be.
Sure doesn't sound like a Tanach or NT theophany, though, does it to you?
What would be YHWH's point in
a ship-passing-in-the-night meeting? Isn't theophany all about YHWH showing
us His heart? So that we can reveal it to others???
Do understand, I'm not trying to limit YHWH to a set of preconceptions. My
job, like yours, is to test the spirits. I have met a few folks who claim to
prophesy. (Not saying you're one of them; I don't know you that well). Many
of them are much in favour of having unusual, maybe bizarre, meetings with
YHWH. Moi, I dunno. Sounds a bit New-Agey and trans-Torah to me. But U nvr
n0, sA the txtrs.
As to the word Incarnation -- well, you need to make something of John 1:14,
unless you disavow John. (I don't think you do). So how would YOU phrase the
awesome revelation in that verse -- staying consistent with the monotheism
of Yeshua and your own monotheism?
Bless you in your research & postings,
John
"Snow" <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:fa21b89e-2dbd-4c59...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Shalom,
*��)
�..� �..*��) �..*�)
(�..� (�.. (Snow(.�..*��)
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- please join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is
really true, there would be little hope of advance.
Orville Wright
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James for E-sword
http://www.e-sword.net/ ? Free bible software
vince garcia
>
>
> Bless you in your research & postings,
>
>
You're blessing a guy who says Paul is a false prophet, and his writings
must be rejected?
That says it all about you.
Snow
> " f:or all I know, I met YAHWEH yesterday and didn't
> even know it."
>
> May be.
>
> Sure doesn't sound like a Tanach or NT theophany, though, does it to you?
> What would be YHWH's point in
> a ship-passing-in-the-night meeting? Isn't theophany all about YHWH showing
> us His heart? So that we can reveal it to others???
I can not say for certain friend.
Isa 45:4 ‘For the sake of Yaʽaqoḇ My servant, and of Yisra’ĕl My
chosen, I also call you by your name, I give you a title, though you
have not known Me.
Isa 45:5 ‘I am יYAHWEH, and there is none else – there is no Elohim
besides Me. I gird you, though you have not known Me,
I have not known YAHWEH and I am not so arrogant to say that I would
recognize him if he did not manifest in a form that announced his
presence,
Num 22:28 Then YAHWEH opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to
Bilʽam, “What have I done to you, that you have beaten me these three
times?”
Just like when he manifested in the donkey and Ballam did not know
the messengers were right in front of him.
Isa 45:15 Truly You are Ěl, who hide Yourself, O Elohim of Yisra’ĕl,
Saviour!
We clearly do not see everything with our eyes. We clearly see that
the spirit of Yahweh can manifest anywhere at anytime in any creature.
> Do understand, I'm not trying to limit YHWH to a set of preconceptions. My
> job, like yours, is to test the spirits. I have met a few folks who claim to
> prophesy. (Not saying you're one of them; I don't know you that well). Many
> of them are much in favour of having unusual, maybe bizarre, meetings with
> YHWH. Moi, I dunno. Sounds a bit New-Agey and trans-Torah to me. But U nvr
> n0, sA the txtrs.
>
> As to the word Incarnation -- well, you need to make something of John 1:14,
> unless you disavow John. (I don't think you do). So how would YOU phrase the
> awesome revelation in that verse -- staying consistent with the monotheism
> of Yeshua and your own monotheism?
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent1 among us, and
we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father,
complete in favour and truth. Footnote: 1An indication that His birth
was during the Festival of Booths.
The "word" has a speaker. The speaker did not become flesh, the word
became flesh. The speaker is Elohim and Elohim is spirit. If you
speak a word, it is your words but what you create by your words are
not you, they are the manifestation of your creation just as Yehoshua
was the manifestation of YAHWEH'S creation.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Gen 1:3 And Elohim said, “Let light come to be,” and light came to
be.
Aaron
<vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>John Gardner wrote:
>
>SNIP
>
>You can post all the words you want, and use whatever hebrew terms you
>like, but if your point is to deny that JESUS is fully God and fully
>man, you have a false messiah, and we Christians are told not even to
>wish you a good day.
Yshu`a was man and God. I have heard Christians use the term "fully"
in this statement without giving explanation, so I don't know if they
are sneaking an added definition to the terms.
Yshu`a, the Messiah taught in the four Gosples taught Judaism. if
your point is to deny this you have a false Messiah
>
>There is nothing edifying about your post; it is messianic false
>teaching, trying to keep people in deception, or else get them to leave
>the REAL messiah in order to accept a false messiah who is less than
>fully God.
>
>Oh--and i know of no one named "sha'ul"
Rabbi Shaul was a student of Rabban Gamliel the Elder who accepted
Yshu`a as the Messiah and wrote several books of the Ketuvim
Mashiachim (a.k.a. "New Testament"). aside from his rabbinical
ordination in Beyt Hillel he was ordained as a Messianic Rabbi as
recorded in Galatians 2:9. Shaul used his secular name, Pavlos, when
dealing with Gentiles who could not pronounce the SH sound and his
real name when called to the Torah.
>
>Your messianic re-creation of PAUL in your own messianic image, your
>appealing to the Zohar to validate your doctrine, and your using the
>name YESHUA in order to deny the what the real JESUS are despicable
>examples of satan trying to promote the false gospel of the Judaisers
>Paul fought so tirelessly against.
Yshu`a is the name of the Messiah; "jesus" is a fake name used to
reinvent Messiah.
>
>I wish you would pull out your circumcision knife, and castrate yourself
Wow! You really hate God!
Linda Lee
> There could be no better time in the (traditional Church) year to meditate
> on the dwelling of Elohim with His people. The following is a post from a
> recent thread, "Re: Jesus, Messiah, not a deity". To state the obvious: I
> don't claim to have all the answers, and I offer this post in love, with the
> goal of edification and/or stimulation:
>
> Let's get this straight! I certainly don't deny the Incarnation of the Word
> of YHWH in the man, Yeshua: Jn. 1:14: "And the Word became flesh and
> pitched his tent among us, and we saw his esteem, esteem as of an only
> brought-forth of a father, complete in favour and truth". (The Scriptures,
> 1998).
In Job 19:25, speaking of the incarnation of God as the Saviour and
Redeemer, Job says, “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he
shall stand at the latter day upon the earth”, and God confirms that
Job spoke rightly about God in Job 42:7.
In Mal. 3:1 the prophet Malachi says that God says, "Behold, * I will
send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before ME* : and **
the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the
messenger of the covenant,** whom ye delight in: behold, he shall
come, saith the LORD of hosts".
Mal. 3:1 reveals God will send a "messenger" (John the Baptist) who
"shall prepare the way before me" ("me" being God), and identifies
"his temple" (the LORD's temple) as the "messenger of the covenant",
AND says "the Lord ...shall suddenly come to his temple" (his body).
God came to his temple, the temple being "the messenger of the
covenant", at the baptism of the Messiah when the Holy Spirit
descended upon him.
Joh 2:19 'Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and
in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in
building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of *** the TEMPLE OF HIS BODY".***
How can there be a "Lesser YHWH" when you have said "the Lesser YHWH,
is fully and equally YHWH in that He is, and has, all that the Father
is and has"? A greater and lesser YHWH is not any more accurate than
separating God into the three parts of the "Godhead" or Trinity.
I think it boils down to the Spirit is greater than flesh; that is why
the Messiah said "my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) because
the subject in that statement was he was going to return to Heaven, to
"go unto the Father":
John 14:28, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go
unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." If they loved
him, they would rejoice because he was going to the Father i.e. that
he would no longer be in the flesh.
God is an Angel/Spirit (Gen. 48:16/John 4:24), and God made mortal men
(sons of man) a little lower than the angels:
Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of
man, that thou visitest him?
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and
hast crowned him with glory and honour.
> Epiphaneus states that the early Believers were "just like the Torah
> keeping Jews" and differed in no way from their accepted practices:
> Parnarion Eusebius Section 29,7. 1-9:5. If this is so, the Israelite
> disciples of Yeshua were no different than their non-believing Jewish
> counterparts in most ways. Because of these Messianic Torah beliefs, the
> Nazarenes were considered heretics along with another similar group by the
> name of the Cerinthians, named after Cerinthus, a born again believer who
> followed Torah. And what did his group believe?
>
> According to Epiphaneus, they believed the same thing the early Nazarenes
> believed. They believed in Messiah Yahshua, Torah and a view of Elohim that
> held that the world was not created by the Supreme Deity but by a certain
> power emanating from Him. Epiphaneus 2:29:1 affirms that the Nazarenes and
> Cerinthians held common views on the true Creator emanating from the Supreme
> One. According to this historian, he couldn't say who came first, the
> Nazarenes or Cerinthians, but they held similar beliefs: Epiphanius Panarion
> 2:29.
>
> Irenaeus, an anti-Nazarene "Church" father (130-200 CE) says that the
> Cerinthians/Nazarenes taught that "the world was not made by the primary God
That is not accurate. The Hebrew Scriptures state that God, and The
Holy Spirit have made man and the New Testament Scriptures state the
Messiah made man.
Gen. 5:1 says, “God created man” and breathed life into him (Gen.
2:7); in Job 33:4 Job says, “The Spirit of God hath made me, and the
breath of the Almighty hath given me life”; and John 1:3-4 says of the
Word/Yahashua` the Messiah, “All things were made by him; and without
him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the
life was the light of men” and “the world was made by him” (John
1:10).
The Scriptures attribute the creation of humankind to God, the Holy
Spirit (“Spirit of God”), and Yahashua` the Messiah because God, the
Holy Spirit, and Yahashua` the Messiah are one and the same.
Linda Lee
> Where was YHWH when the Shekhina was burning in the Tabernacle/Temple Holy
> of Holies? Where was YHWH in the theophanies of the Tanach - e.g. Gen. 18:1?
> In Heaven? Yes. On earth & visible? Yes. In a sense that I decribed as
> "Lesser" in previous posting -- yet authentic and vital to faith.
>
> It seems clear to me that the Father, YHWH, is quite capable of manifesting
> Himself in a light, in a pillar of fire/cloud, as an "angelic" visitor (or 3
> visitors), and finally in the form of a Son, without detracting at all from
> his majestic omnipresence. Heb. 1:1.
>
> You asked about prayer. We pray as Yeshua taught us to pray -- to Our Father
> in Heaven. We don't mean by this (I hope we don't mean!) that YHWH is
> somehow confined to our human notion of "Heaven as a place". We feel, and we
> ought to feel, that He is immediate to us; He hears our praises & our
> prayers; He informs our studies; He revives our souls. Yet He remains "in
> Heaven"!!
>
> I am a montheist. I am confident that you, Snow, are also a monotheist. That
> means, among other things, that the esteem we ascribe to YHWH does not ever,
> and must not ever, go to another! That, in a nutshell, is why Yeshua went
> about Galilee and Judea turning men's hearts to the Father -- and that is
> why He did NOT demand, or even hint, that they should worship Him, the man,
> Yeshua, as God, or as God the Son.
How do you reach that conclusion? Many, including the apostles, DID
WORSHIP the Messiah, and he always accepted their worship and did not
ever tell them not to do so:
The Messiah was worshipped during his incarnation as an adult prior to
his resurrection from the dead:
Matt. 14:33 says the apostles worshipped the Messiah, “Then they that
were in the ship came and worshipped him [Christ, Messiah], saying, Of
a truth thou art the Son of God”.
Matt. 8:2 says, “And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him
[Christ, the Messiah], saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me
clean”.
Matt. 9:18 says, “While he spake these things unto them, behold, there
came a certain ruler, and worshipped [Christ, the Messiah], saying, My
daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she
shall live”.
Matt. 15:25 says, “Then came she and worshipped him [Christ, the
Messiah], saying, Lord, help me”.
Mark 5:6 says, “But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped
him”[Christ, the Messiah].
John 9:35-38 says, “Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when
he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of
God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on
him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he
that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he
worshipped him” [Christ, the Messiah].
The Messiah was worshipped following his resurrection from the dead:
John 20:28 says, “And Thomas answered and said unto him [Christ,
Yahashua` the Messiah], My Lord and my God”.
Matt. 28:9 says Mary Magdalene and the other Mary worshipped him
following his resurrection, “And as they went to tell his disciples,
behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him
by the feet, and worshipped him” [Christ, the Messiah].
And the Messiah was worshipped at birth:
Matt. 2:11 says, “And when they were come into the house, they saw the
young child [Christ, the Messiah] with Mary his mother, and fell down,
and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they
presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh”.
In Isa. 11:10 the prophet ISAIAH PROPHESIES that the GENTILES would
WORSHIP THE MESSIAH:
Isa. 11:10 says, “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse,
which shall stand for an ensign [“signal”] of the people; to it shall
the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious”.
The word here translated 'seek' – Heb. 1875 – is defined as “A
primitive root; properly to tread or frequent; usually to follow (for
pursuit or search); by implication to seek or ask; specifically to
worship”.
God and the Lamb of God/Messiah share ONE FACE, ONE NAME, AND ONE
THRONE because they are one and the same:
Rev. 22:3-4 says, "And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of
God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their
foreheads".
>
> The analogy between Yeshua and the Shekhina light is not perfect, but I
> think it's useful. On one hand, it was definitely taught, and believed, that
> YHWH really dwelled - tabernacled - in the Ohel Moed, and later in the
> Temple -- even though it was recognized that not even the heavens, or the
> heavens of teh heavens, could REALLY contain YHWH. On the other hand, the
> Israelites did not WORSHIP the Shekhina. That would be idolatry!
Apparently, you believe the apostles and disciples of the Messiah were
all guilty of idolatry since they worshipped the Messiah.
>
> I don't know if the foregoing addresses your question. If not, you could
> maybe rephrase. I'm not shy of terms like "Incarnation" <if you don't go
> beyond John 1:14> but I have no use at all for conceptions like "the God
> Man", or "God the Son", which are IMHO best applied to mythical figures like
> Hercules and the various tribes of Greek demi-gods. Neither my God (YHWH)
> nor my Lord (Yeshua) have anything in common with these monstrous
> miscegenations of Hellenic hocus-pocus.
>
> Yours alliteratively,
>
> John/Jochanan.
>
> "Snow" <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
Linda Lee
>
> The answer I sought was that YAHWEH is in all places and in the hearts
> of all his children which does not limit YAHWEH to a single
> incarnation when for all I know, I met YAHWEH yesterday and didn't
> even know it.
You have not recognized the manifestation of the Spirit as Yahashua`
the Messiah.
And you are trying to claim that the Messiah was not the only unique
Son of God, that YHWH is equally present in all his children, just as
you have claimed to me that you are the Son of God based upon "ye are
gods" (as God said to the Israelites). You are a blasphemer.
>
> If we make the mistake of saying Yehoshua was YAHWEH incarnate, we are
> in fact limiting that which is unlimited.
> To say he manifested the
> spirit of YAHWEH
Yes, the Messiah did MANIFEST the Spirit of God, because as the
Messiah, God the Holy Spirit appeared in the flesh visible to the
naked eye, and he plainly showed, clearly proved, by his works that he
was God.
John 10:38, "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works:
that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in
him."
You don't even know the meaning of the word "manifested":
Manifested - as a verb (used with object)
3. to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show
plainly
4. to prove; put beyond doubt or question:
> recognizes that while Yehoshua was in Israel, YAHWEH
> was still all powerful and in the hearts and minds of all his children
> at the same time.
Again, you slyly imply that the Messiah was nothing special; that God
is in all his children. Your messianism mysteriously has no Messiah in
it, deceiver.
>
> "Incanate" creates an image of idolotry that Christians think to
> praise and worship
You are just plain WRONG. The prophet Isaiah prophesied the Gentiles
would worship the Messiah, and he was worshipped during his lifetime
by his Israelite disciples and apostles:
In Isa. 11:10 the prophet ISAIAH PROPHESIES that the GENTILES would
WORSHIP THE MESSIAH:
Isa. 11:10 says, “And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse,
which shall stand for an ensign [“signal”] of the people; to it shall
the GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious”.
The word here translated 'seek' – Heb. 1875 – is defined as “A
primitive root; properly to tread or frequent; usually to follow (for
pursuit or search); by implication to seek or ask; specifically to
WORSHIP”.
Snow
I would point out to you that John 3 does not say what you think it
reads, in my opinion. I will explain this other view to you but I
realize you do not except my point of view.
Joh 3:13 “And no one has gone up into the heaven except He who came
down from the heaven – the Son of Aḏam.
I would point out that the first distinction is here in his statement
that he is the "Son of Man/Adam". YAHWEH is the creator of man, not
the Son.
Joh 3:14 “And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
so the Son of Adam has to be lifted up,
This next verse goes on to explain why the Messiah was "lifted up" and
makes the comparison to the serpent in the wilderness, which as you
know, had zero to do with forgiveness of sins and everything to do
with being A SYMBOLIC demonstration of the power of Elohim. This idea
of the passion being a demonstration of the power of belief is upheld
…
Joh 3:15 so that whoever is believing in Him should not perish but
possess everlasting life.
Joh 3:16 “For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-
forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but
possess everlasting life.
If you believe this passage, it does not say anything about removing
sin, it simply states that He is lifted up so that you would believe
when the miracle of the resurrection takes place, men would know and
witness the power of Elohim.
The fact that the Messiah was in fact DEAD, means that he could not of
his own ability raised himself, lest we say the dead are not dead and
we deny the very fact that scriptures emphatically state that he gave
his spirit into his Father's hands.
Luk 23:46 And crying out with a loud voice, YEHOSHUA said, “Father,
into Your hands I commit My spirit.” And having said this, He breathed
His last. "
And John does say that he was DEAD.
Joh 21:14 This was now the third time YEHOSHUA was manifested to His
taught ones after He was raised from the dead.
The passage says, "He was raised" from the dead by an external power,
not that he raised himself from the dead. Luke in Acts agrees:
Act 4:10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of
Yisra’ĕl, that in the Name of YEHOSHUA Messiah of Natsareth, whom you
impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands
before you, healthy.
Again.. another account that specifically points to an external power
of Elohim that raised him from the dead. This pretty much blows your
Trinity and "incarnate" theories out the window but of course you will
refuse to recognize these simple truths... that scriptures do not
agree with you dogmatic mistranslation.
So... I have nor denied anything in the Good News and have in fact
encouraged you to recognize what it actually teaches... that the
Messiah died so that other would believe in the power of Elohim to
raise men of from the dead.
You would have us believing that the dead raise themselves but dead is
DEAD and I have to wonder how long you will deny the Good News in
favor of your dogma! Do you deny he was DEAD? Certainly that idea
denies the scriptures! Ultimately, if “Jesus” was dead, who do
Trinity Christians think raised him?
Num 6:24 “Yahweh bless you and guard you;
Num 6:25 Yahweh make His face shine upon you, and show favour to you;
Num 6:26 Yahweh lift up His face upon you, and give you peace.” ’
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Begin to see yourself as a soul with a body rather than a body with a
soul.
Wayne Dyer
Exo 20:7 “You do not bring the Name of 'Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [translated
Yahweh] your Elohim to naught, for Yahweh does not leave the one
unpunished who brings His Name to naught.
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.
Mark Twain
Respond directly:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip
Restored Names King James for E-sword
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/Jubilees.pdf
Book of Jubilees
I believe that being successful means having a balance of success
stories across the many areas of your life. You can't truly be
considered successful in your business life if your home life is in
shambles.
Zig Ziglar
Snow
> You have not recognized the manifestation of the Spirit as Yahashua`
> the Messiah.
>
> And you are trying to claim that the Messiah was not the only unique
> Son of God, that YHWH is equally present in all his children, just as
> you have claimed to me that you are the Son of God based upon "ye are
> gods" (as God said to the Israelites). You are a blasphemer.
I find this accusation interesting.
Joh 17:21 so that they ALL might be one, as You, Father, are in Me,
and I in You, so that they too might be one in Us, so that the world
might believe that You have sent Me.
Mat 12:49 And having stretched out His hand toward His taught ones, He
said, “See My mother and My brothers!
If the Messiah himself says ALL might be one and that we are his
brothers, then that does in fact agree with Psalm 82
Psa 82:6 I, I said, “You are elohim, And all of you are sons of the
Most High.
So, while you might not like it because you are a psychotic denier of
the truth and follow after Paul while you disclaim his teachings, I
SUPPORT MY BELIEF WITH SCRIPTURES and you support your accusations
with NOTHING.
Is the Messiah a “Incarnated” deity?
Joh 5:30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter.
Joh 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
As I speak on various topics on the Usenet, several “Christians”
follow post with the same claims, that the man they call “Jesus” was a
deity and that I’m evil for thinking rationally about the scriptures
and the things taught by the Good News accounts of scriptures.
In order to maintain false dogma, TRINITY Christianity relies on
mistranslation, man made tradition and removing the name of the
Almighty from scriptures. It is not Jewish tradition to remove the
name of YAHWEH from scriptures. Jewish tradition is simply that they
do not vocalize the sacred name but they do not remove it from
scriptures.
Christians use many traps to say otherwise for example, the “Jewish
Publication Society” version of scripture, which is really just a
Christian translation of scriptures where they replace the name of
YAHWEH with “Adonia” instead of “Lord”.
Christians rely on very few passages to say that “Jesus” is the
Almighty creator and I thought I would touch on just a few.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Master and my
Mighty One.
Thomas claiming that Yehoshua was his “God” is not significant since
“Elohim” is a title that is given to Moses, Abraham, judges and
rulers. Exodus 7:1 demonstrates Moses was “a god” to Pharaoh and I
don’t see Christians lining up to worship him.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are elohim; and ALL of you are children of
the most High.
Christian must ignore the fact that ALL are children of the most high
so that they can run around calling everybody else the devils child.
Joh 4:24 “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship
in spirit and truth.”
The next is the claim that every time Yehoshua says, “I AM” his is
claiming to be the Almighty rather then his servant which goes against
all the verses that say YAHWEH put his spirit on the man.
Mat 12:18 Behold MY SERVANT, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom
my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall
show judgment to the Gentiles.
This does not say he is mankind’s servant or servant to the apostles
but that the Almighty in heaven servant. Christians must deny this
verse and claim that he is the spirit “incarnated” from birth rather
than a servant and man who YAHWEH put his spirit upon.
To address “I Am” as a claim to be Almighty, a person must recognize
that the name of YAHWEH is removed from their scriptures and that the
name is not listed in Exodus 3:14 but rather it is removed from verse
15 and hidden from Christian eyes.
Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to
the children of Yisrael, YAHWEH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of
Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaaqoḇ, has sent
me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to ALL
GENERATIONS.’
His remembrance for ALL GENRATIONS is not Jesus, it’s not LORD, it is
YAHWEH. The name is recorded over 6,800 times in Hebrew scriptures
and removed completely from the New Testament. To say, “I Am” is a
claim to being the Almighty, we might as well worship Peter who says
in Acts:
Act 10:21 Then Kepha went down to the men which were sent unto him
from Cornelius; and said, Behold I AM he whom ye seek: what is the
cause wherefore ye are come?
Clearly saying, “I AM”, is not a call to say he is the Almighty that
we seek but Christians must ignore this fact. They must also ignore
the fact that scriptures clearly teach Yehoshua was a MAN who was
raised by YAHWEH.
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yehoshua of Nazareth, A
MAN approved of YHWH among you by miracles and wonders and signs,
which YHWH did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and
foreknowledge of YHWH, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have
crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom YHWH hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death:
because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
And:
1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in YHWH, that raised him up from the
dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in YHWH.
It does not say he raised himself from the dead. To say otherwise is
to fail to acknowledge that he did in fact die which the Trinity
doctrine does. So many passages in the New Testament MUST be ignored
by Trinity Christians to support the lie that says we must worship
“Jesus” and they will refuse to actually address these many passages
and then go on to babble dogma such as:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim,
and the Word was Elohim.
What they fail to take into account is that “the word” is not the
speaker of the word which is YAHWEH.
Gen 1:3 And Elohim SAID, “Let light come to be,” and light came to be.
Being the “word” is not an indication that Yehoshua was the speaker of
those words but rather created by the speaker as Hebrew scriptures
says YAHWEH creates all things.
Isa 45:11 Thus said YAHWEH, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl, and his
Maker, “Do you ask Me about My sons what is to come? And about the
work of My hands do you command Me?
Isa 45:12 “I have made the earth, and created man on it. I, My hands
have stretched out the heavens, and ALL their host I have commanded.
When called to worship Satan, Jesus did not say, “Worship me”, he said
to worship YAHWEH and Christians again remove this name from
scriptures:
Mat 4:10 Then YEHOSHUA said to him, “Go, Satan! For it has been
written, ‘You shall worship YAHWEH your Elohim, and Him alone you
shall serve.’ ”1 Footnote: 1Dt. 6:13.
We can see the Hebrew text quoted speaks only of YAHWEH. Christians
must run circles around the greatest command in scriptures:
Mar 12:29 And Yehoshua answered him, The first of all the commandments
is, Hear, O Israel; YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
Here we have a direct quote of Deuteronomy so that we can have no
doubt exactly what is said in the Hebrew:
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
It does NOT say, Jesus is our God. YAHWEH is Elohim of Elohim, a
title that can’t be ascribed to the Messiah no matter how much they
bend and twist his words.
Deu 10:17 “For YAHWEH your Elohim is Elohim of mighty ones and Master
of masters, the great Ěl, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality
nor takes a bribe.
So, even if Yehoshua is “God”, YAHWEH is the “GOD OF GODS” even by
their translation. We are told to pray to our Father in heaven, while
Yehoshua was on earth, he states that power and authority is given to
him and that of his own, he could do nothing but the most convincing
evidence of purposeful mistranslation are the following passage:
Joh 7:28 Yehoshua therefore cried out in the Set-apart Place, teaching
and saying, “YOU both KNOW ME, and you know where I am from. And I
have NOT COME OF MYSELF, but HE WHO SENT ME is true, whom YOU DO NOT
KNOW.
Joh 12:44 Then Yehoshua cried out and said, “He who believes in Me,
believes NOT IN ME but in Him who sent Me.
Mar 9:37 “Whoever receives one of such little children in My Name
receives Me. And whoever receives Me, RECEIVES ME NOT, but the One WHO
SENT ME.”
Many more can be given but Christians do not desire the truth, they
desire to be right in following man made tradition. Merry season of
the Yule, X-Mass
Linda Lee
> On Dec 16, 8:25 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
> I would point out to you that John 3 does not say what you think it
> reads, in my opinion. I will explain this other view to you but I
> realize you do not except my point of view.
>
> Joh 3:13 “And no one has gone up into the heaven except He who came
> down from the heaven – the Son of Aḏam.
He was also the Son of God i.e. God in mortal flesh, a fact you like
to ignore.
>
> I would point out that the first distinction is here in his statement
> that he is the "Son of Man/Adam". YAHWEH is the creator of man, not
> the Son.
The Son of God is the Creator of man, another fact you like to ignore.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
>
> Joh 3:14 “And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
> so the Son of Adam has to be lifted up,
>
> This next verse goes on to explain why the Messiah was "lifted up" and
> makes the comparison to the serpent in the wilderness, which as you
> know, had zero to do with forgiveness of sins
Once again, your never-ending incomprehension and ignorance of the OT
and NT Scriptures is showing.
Moses 'lifting up the serpent' had everything to do with forgiveness
of sins so that one might live.
God told Moses that any Israelites that had been disobedient (and so
had been bitten by the "fiery"/poisonous serpents) who LOOKED UPON THE
BRAZEN SERPENT that God told Moses to LIFT UP (set up) WOULD LIVE and
not die from the effects of the poisonous serpent. That is why Moses
'lifting up the serpent' is symbolic of the fact that anyone looking
upon, turning to, the Messiah who was lifted up in crucifixion would
live eternal life. This is what the Messiah is talking about in John
3:14.
God had sent 'fiery serpents' (fiery indicating a burning sensation
from the bite) because the Israelites had "sinned" by murmuring
against God, and God had sent fiery serpents in their midst that were
killing them. The 'fiery serpent made of brass' was 'lifted up' only
after the people repented. God told Moses to place the brazen serpent
up on a pole where it could be seen, and God said anyone bitten had
only to look at it, and the snakebite they'd suffered would not kill
them:
Num 21:5 “And the people spake against God, and against Moses,
Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul
loatheth this light bread.
Num 21:6 And the LORD sent FIERY SERPENTS among the people, and they
bit the people; and much people of Israel DIED.
Num 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, __WE HAVE
SINNED,__ for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray
unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses
prayed for the people.
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a FIERY SERPENT, and
set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that EVERY ONE THAT IS
BITTEN, WHEN HE LOOKETH UPON IT, SHALL LIVE.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a SERPENT OF BRASS, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he
beheld the serpent of brass, he LIVED.
Smith's Bible Dictionary: "When God punished the murmurs of the
Israelites in the wilderness, by sending among them, serpents whose
fiery bite was fatal, Moses, upon their repentance, was commanded to
make a serpent of brass, whose polished surface shone like fire, and
to set it up on the banner-pole in the midst of the people; and
whoever was bitten by a serpent had but to look up at it and live.
Num. 21:4-9. The comparison used by Christ, John 3:14-15, adds a deep
interest to this scene".
John 3:14-15, "And AS MOSES LIFTED UP THE SERPENT in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in
him should not perish, but have eternal life."
The correlation the Messiah is making to the story of Moses and the
'fiery serpent of brass' that Moses “lifted up” (placed on a pole) is
that anyone who 'looks to Christ' (turns to him for salvation) shall
gain eternal life (shall live); otherwise they will die, as all have
been 'bitten' by the 'serpent' i.e. Satan and have sinned.
John 12:32-33, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all
men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die."
The Messiah is here referring to Moses 'lifting up the serpent' (a
brass serpent, that healed those who looked to it - of their
snakebites) as a prophesy that those who LOOK UPON (i.e. believe and
follow) the Messiah (God incarnate in the flesh) would live eternally
(the 'brass serpent' signifying the flesh), even though they had all
sinned by following THE serpent of Genesis/Satan and so were banished
from Paradise and consigned to the flesh.
In the Messiah's reference to Moses lifting up the brass serpent, the
fiery serpent(s) signify THE serpent/Satan causing the spiritual death
of those now in the flesh.
It's amazing that every verse you discuss demonstrates your
incomprehension of its meaning. You do not know or comprehend the
teachings of the Messiah at all. You as a teacher is a JOKE.
> and everything to do
> with being A SYMBOLIC demonstration of the power of Elohim. This idea
> of the passion being a demonstration of the power of belief is upheld
>
…
> Joh 3:14 “And as Mosheh lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even
> so the Son of Adam has to be lifted up,
> Joh 3:15 so that whoever is believing in Him should not perish but
> possess everlasting life.
> Joh 3:16 “For Elohim so loved the world that He gave His only brought-
> forth Son, so that everyone who believes in Him should not perish but
> possess everlasting life.
>
> If you believe this passage, it does not say anything about removing
> sin,
The Messiah's correlation of his crucifixion to Moses lifting up of
the serpent in the wilderness was how the Messiah taught it was about
removing sin.
> it simply states that He is lifted up so that you would believe
> when the miracle of the resurrection takes place, men would know and
> witness the power of Elohim.
>
> The fact that the Messiah was in fact DEAD, means that he could not of
> his own ability raised himself, lest we say the dead are not dead and
> we deny the very fact that scriptures emphatically state that he gave
> his spirit into his Father's hands.
Won't you ever comprehend the difference between death of the flesh
and death of the spirit?
> Luk 23:46 And crying out with a loud voice, YEHOSHUA said, “Father,
> into Your hands I commit My spirit.” And having said this, He breathed
> His last. "
He was The Teacher, and was teaching others what to do when their
flesh died. Stephen did this SAME THING when he was martyred, BUT
STEPHEN COMMENDED HIS SPIRIT INTO THE HANDS OF THE MESSIAH:
Acts 7:59 "And they stoned Stephen, CALLING UPON GOD, AND SAYING,
LORD JESUS, RECEIVE MY SPIRIT."
Now WHO does Stephen want to receive his spirit; God or Christ?
Answer: God/Christ as they are ONE AND THE SAME.
You may not understand what the Messiah taught, but obviously Stephen
did, and Stephen took the Messiah's words on the cross as a teaching
we should commit our Spirit to God/the Messiah when our flesh dies.
>
> And John does say that he was DEAD.
>
> Joh 21:14 This was now the third time YEHOSHUA was manifested to His
> taught ones after He was raised from the dead.
>
> The passage says, "He was raised" from the dead by an external power,
It does not say that at all.
> not that he raised himself from the dead. Luke in Acts agrees:
John 10:17-18 Yahashua` the Messiah said, "I lay down my life, that I
might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of
myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it
again".
>
> Act 4:10 let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of
> Yisra’ĕl, that in the Name of YEHOSHUA Messiah of Natsareth, whom you
> impaled, whom Elohim raised from the dead, by Him this one stands
> before you, healthy.
>
> Again.. another account that specifically points to an external power
> of Elohim that raised him from the dead.
It does not point to an "external power"; God DID raise the flesh of
the Messiah, because the Messiah was God the Spirit and our Father.
> This pretty much blows your
> Trinity and "incarnate" theories out the window
You're delusional.
> but of course you will
> refuse to recognize these simple truths... that scriptures do not
> agree with you dogmatic mistranslation.
Projection.
> So... I have nor denied anything in the Good News
You deny ALL the Good News/Gospel - that being God incarnate as the
only Saviour.
>
> You would have us believing that the dead raise themselves but dead is
> DEAD and I have to wonder how long you will deny the Good News in
> favor of your dogma! Do you deny he was DEAD?
HIS FLESH was DEAD; his Spirit never died as it was the Holy Spirit.
And the Messiah says he lifted himself from death:
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of
mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I
lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them
also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be
one fold, and one shepherd.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my
life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I
have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father.
Your focus is always denial of the forgiveness of sins and salvation
through Christ. I do not have any hope that you will ever understand
the teachings of the Messiah as your confusion has obviously
overwhelmed you; you've been spewing your antichrist nonsense for
about two years.
The Messiah taught that there is ONLY ONE REASON people cannot
understand his speech, because they do not accept his word as they are
children of the Devil:
Joh 8:43 WHY DO YE NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT
HEAR MY WORD.
Joh 8:44 YE ARE OF YOUR FATHER THE DEVIL, and the lusts of your
father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he SPEAKETH A
LIE, he speaketh of his own: for he is A LIAR, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
You antichrist children of the Devil are all alike; you lie and claim
that the Messiah was not worshipped during his incarnation, just as
you ignore all of the Messiah's teachings that he was God incarnate as
our only Saviour.
Snow
Nobody cares Linda
>I
> still will not renounce Christ as God incarnate as you insist I do,
Linda, I don't care what you do or what you believe.. I simply want
you to stop posting to and about me and I will do the same when you
agree to that... I have zero desire to ever call you, know you or
speak of you once you agree to stop your obsessional with me.
I can’t read your post Linda, they make people dumber for having even
looked at them. You can read this the first time or the hundredth time
this gets spammed back at you Linda but this is it.. I’m done with
you.
Rev 22:11 “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy,
let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more
righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.
Dear very SICK, DEMENTED STALKER JEZEBEL. Please feel free to end
this boring spam war at any time and agree to actually follow the
teachings of the Messiah...
What this means is that you go your way in peace and make your post..
I go my way and make my post and we have no need to ever speak to each
other ever again...
Mat 15:14 “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.”
You see, I am not the one that is in love with you.. you are the one
that is in love with me and this is why you can't let go of posting to
me , YOU ARE OBSESSED WITH GETTING A SNOWJOB that you aren't getting.
I really do not think it is too much to ask that you keep your posting
to other people and not speak of me on a daily bases in your anal
retentive, boring accusations.
This is not my first spam war as you well KNOW. I’ve been in these on
your side trying to help fend off people just a psychotic as you like
CARL. I’ve patiently asked you many times to stop your attacks on me
and even when you’re not talking to me, you’re talking about me. You
are obsessed with ME, not your deity, not obeying any so called
proclaimed “spirit” that you clearly do not possess unless you’re
claiming a demon.
If you need a confession, this is it: I do not like you. I have no
desire to share your dogma, speak to you or even know anything of you.
Look, I get it that your this needy person who thinks that if you call
people Chauvinist, that people might think this has anything with you
being a female but you know it doesn’t.. It’s about you showing a tiny
bit of restraint and not attacking me on a daily bases as you have
every time you post for the past YEAR.
Its probably is hard for you to understand, given that maybe you
thought I was a friend of yours while you went around behaving like
the witch that you are… the reality is that people have a right to
post without being attacked and that is why I sided with you when Carl
spam attacked you.
I can agree to not post in threads you start and I can agree to NEVER
mention you again and honestly if I never heard from you again, that
would greatly please me but I respect that you have the right to post,
unlike you. I respect that you have a freedom of speech, JUST LIKE I
DO.
You do not have to agree with me but I do ask that you let me be.
I realize that this is probably your idea of a cry for help.. I
cannot give it to you.. seek professional help or get somebody else
that is willing to speak with you to get help you so badly need.
I realize that you are jealous of the fact that nobody listens to you
are cares about you… that Ike tells you what a witch you are… What
makes you think I disagree or agree with him? Why are you trying to
associate us? Because you are jealous, which really is a sad site
because…
We don’t agree on dogma, we can’t communicate like civil people, why
not just do one simple thing and end this stupid harassment NOW
instead of ten years from now or whenever enough people complain?
Is it that hard for you to just leave me alone? Are you so possessed
by evil spirits that you can’t simply follow those teachings you swear
you follow instead of just falsely accusing every person you talk to
on a daily bases?
As to my speaking on the dogma of Christianity, I do not attack
individuals, I speak of an entire belief system and this is my right
to do so.
You on the other hand have made this VERY PERSONAL and so, I see it as
completely different. If you want to speak about how evil “Messianic”
faith is.. be my guest.. have at it. I know that the truth prevails
and I have no fear of anything you have to say about my system of
beliefs.
Your primary problem is that you still insist on being identified as a
Christian because you feel a need to conform to that belief system in
some way or form but the reality is that Christians believe Apostle
Paul and so, you are in denial of what you are by Christian standards,
a heretic.
Now, since I am Messianic, this does not bother me in the slightest.
It doesn’t bother me to be labeled “anti Christ” either because I know
the truth… I honor my Messiah’s teachings by doing my best to do what
is right and I don’t just pick and choose which of the scriptures I
keep, I keep them all that speak according to the Torah of My ELOHIM
YAHWEH EL SHADDAI.
I get it that you pretend to reject Paul and you also reject Moses
even though you deny this fact! You deny the name of YAHWEH every
chance you get… I can live with that.. I spoke my peace, I’m done with
you and no more communication between us is ever needed, wanted or
desired in any way shape or form.
I don’t want you to apologize, I don’t want your forgiveness, I DON’T
NEED IT. You can carry your hatred with you until you rot in your
grave or… you can let it go, it’s all your choice.. everything is your
choice.. will it end now?
Examining the reality of what I have come to know about Linda Lee is
that she rejects the entire bible. To her, the bible is something she
can use to ATTACK OTHER PEOPLE but she has no need to actually put
into practice the teachings of the Messiah herself. She does this
because it is really her desire to spread her hatred. She hates men
and exhibits many traits of a Lesbian, where all men are pigs and she
is a victim of male aggression when in reality, she is the person that
institutes aggression on a daily bases...
If not over "the divinity of Christ" she has railed about "murdering
false apostle Paul" for YEARS now attacking every person that dares to
attempt to speak with her on the topic.
She rejects Moses, she rejects Paul and she pays lip service to her
supposed deity Jesus. She claims her deity preached the commandments
but then later says that one can't keep the Ten Commandments and so it
must be by "grace" that she is entitled to her claims. So while she
rails against Paul, she closely adhere to his doctrine in practice and
only disagrees with his "anti feminist" statements about woman
learning in silence.
Linda Lee
> On Dec 16, 8:25 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > You have not recognized the manifestation of the Spirit as Yahashua`
> > the Messiah.
>
> > And you are trying to claim that the Messiah was not the only unique
> > Son of God, that YHWH is equally present in all his children, just as
> > you have claimed to me that you are the Son of God based upon "ye are
> > gods" (as God said to the Israelites). You are a blasphemer.
>
> I find this accusation interesting.
And then Snowjob the blasphemer and child of the Devil tries to
support that he is equal to the Messiah/the Son of God...
>
> Joh 17:21 so that they ALL might be one, as You, Father, are in Me,
> and I in You, so that they too might be one in Us, so that the world
> might believe that You have sent Me.
>
> Mat 12:49 And having stretched out His hand toward His taught ones, He
> said, “See My mother and My brothers!
>
> If the Messiah himself says ALL might be one and that we are his
> brothers, then that does in fact agree with Psalm 82
Garbage you say. The Messiah was different than other children of God
(who are born of man and woman, not of the Spirit of God) as he was
the only unique/"only begotten" Son of God, being God incarnate:
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the __ONLY BEGOTTEN of the
Father__,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of
whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he
was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for
grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by
Jesus Christ.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotte
Begotten - Gk. 3439 - "only born, that is, sole".
Do you understand what "sole" means? That means ONE unique to all
others; the Messiah was the ONLY ONE BORN OF GOD, not MAN.
Webster's Dictionary - SOLE - "SOLE, a. [L. solus.]
1. Single; being or acting without another; individual; only."
> I SUPPORT MY BELIEF WITH SCRIPTURES and you support your accusations
> with NOTHING.
LOL! You attempt to support your antichrist beliefs with your
misinterpretation and incomprehension of God's/the Messiah's teachings
and a denial of his saving grace, and you're frustrated when you're
proven a liar.
Enough time wasted on the despicable lying Devil-child's antichrist
CRAP.
<SNIP>
Linda Lee
> On Dec 17, 4:01 am, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> Nobody cares Linda
>
You sure don't care about anything except your antichrist LIES, Joker.
> She hates men
Liar. You're an expert at EVIL trouble-making, aren't you, Devil-
child? It is you who projects hatred at the women on these boards,
attempting to force myself, Vera, and Debra to believe what you want
us to believe by using profanity and orders to do so.
> and exhibits many traits of a Lesbian,
> where all men are pigs and she is a victim of male aggression
LOL! You want to go down that road, falsely accusing me of
homosexuality, "FAG-boy Snowjob" ??? - your NEW NAME.
FAG-boy Snowjob,
You spew profanity at me in trying to dictate what I should believe,
and wonder why you're called a male chauvinist PIG. Not all men are
PIGS like you, Snowjob; there are good men in all generations of my
family, whom I love, and I'm not used to having to put up with SWINE
like you.
Like the hypocritical little satan that you are, you repeatedly and
deliberately give false witness about others, lying about what others
believe, attacking them on a daily basis, calling everyone filthy
names while pretending that you are holy, an accusing false prophet
believing you can sin without compunction.
You lie about what I believe and like the hypocritical little satan
that you are, accuse Christians daily, whining about others' treatment
of you while you mistreat them being your favorite past-time, calling
them names and judging them that they are judgmental of others. Then
you put on your manipulative halo and repeatedly lie that you are
tolerant of others' views, yet you began repeatedly calling me “Whore”
when I refused to stop using the KJV Bible and the words God and Holy
and Lord, as you had insisted I do, and calling me “Murderer” when you
found out I had voted for President Obama.
So FAG-boy Snowjob, continue to act the antichrist and to continue to
call me "Whore", “murderer”, “Jezebel witch”, and "Lesbian" all you
like; I still will not renounce Christ as God incarnate as you insist
I do, and I will continue to use the KJV Bible and the words God,
LORD, and Holy regardless of your repeated demands I stop. As always,
YOU LIE about what I believe about Christ and the Scriptures and
everything else connected with God.
And when are you going to comprehend what a Snowjob is, which is a con
(it's in the dictionary, dumbo), and quit pretending it is some kind
of sexual act? They don't come any dumber than you.
<snip Homo-Snowjob's lies about my beliefs, his beliefs, and every
other lie issuing from his diseased brainless head>
Snow
> <snip Homo-Snowjob's lies about my beliefs, his beliefs, and every
> other lie issuing from his diseased brainless head>
still don't care Linda. The difference is.. you care what I think and
you show proof by stalking me.
John Gardner
word is consistently PROSKUNEIO. This word has a range of meanings which you
can and should research in Strong's/eSword, etc. Basically, it means to
prostate onself; do obeisance. (I'm at work now & don't have the time to
cite all the references, but people proskuneo'd before many sorts of
dignitaries in Bible times - without necessarily "worshipping" them!) I
believe the Greek word for "sacred service" is LATREIO (sp?), which I don't
think is used in reference to Yeshua.
Basically, Yeshua's message was, If you want to Honor Me; Worship my God and
My Father. More later if I have time.
John/Jochanan.
"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:de3d73c3-b9a2-4d1a...@p30g2000vbt.googlegroups.com...
Snow
> I'm aware of the Scriptures you cited. In the NT cites, I believe the Greek
> word is consistently PROSKUNEIO. This word has a range of meanings which you
> can and should research in Strong's/eSword, etc. Basically, it means to
> prostate onself; do obeisance. (I'm at work now & don't have the time to
> cite all the references, but people proskuneo'd before many sorts of
> dignitaries in Bible times - without necessarily "worshipping" them!) I
> believe the Greek word for "sacred service" is LATREIO (sp?), which I don't
> think is used in reference to Yeshua.
>
> Basically, Yeshua's message was, If you want to Honor Me; Worship my God and
> My Father. More later if I have time.
>
> John/Jochanan.
She won't hear you.. she has no desire to do anything but attack other
people and you are just giving her a reason to attack you now.. I
wonder what joy filled message of love and compassion she will have
for you:) Here is an interesting list of words that are Hebrew in the
Greek New Testament:
Mat 12:1 sabbaton 4521 sabbath, rest 7676
Mat 23:7 rabbi 4461 rabbi master 7227
Mat 26:2 pascha 3957 passover 6453
Mat 4:10 satanos 4567 adversary 4566
Mat 5:18 amen 281 amen 543
Mat 5:22 raka 4469 empty 7386
Mat 5:22 gehenna 1067 valley 1516/2011
Mat 6:19 ses 4597 moth 5580
Mark 7:11 korban 2878 qorban offering 7133
Mark 14:36 abba 5 abba father 1
Luke 1:15 oinos 3631 wine 3196
Luke 1:15 sikera 4608 strong drink 7941
Luke 10:13 sakkos 4526 sackcloth 8242
Luke 13:21 saton 4568 measure 5429
Luke 16:19 boosos 1040 buts fine linen 948
Luke 16:7 koros 2884 measure 3734
John 6:31 manna 3131 manna 4478
John 12:13 hosanna 5614 hoshi'ah na save now 3467/4994
Rom 9:29 sabaoth 4519 tsivot hosts 5467
2 Cor 1:22 arrabon 728 pledge 6162 2
Cor 11:33 sargane 4553 wrapped 8276
Rev 19:1 halleluia 239 halelu yah praise Yah 1984/3050
This is because many of these concepts simply didn't translate to
Greek and the Hebrew must be maintained to put forward a correct
understanding. I thought you might find this interesting:)
Num 6:24 “Yahweh bless you and guard you;
Num 6:25 Yahweh make His face shine upon you, and show favour to you;
Num 6:26 Yahweh lift up His face upon you, and give you peace.” ’
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate
cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Respond directly:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip
Restored Names King James for E-sword
http://www.e-sword.net/
Free bible software
John Gardner
praise and glory to His Father in Heaven. Not in any more general sense.
Yeshua's Father in Heaven doesn't come to Earth to teach men and women of
faith to pray to "My Son in Heaven" that His will be done. Yeshua's Father
does not refer to Y'shua as "My God and your God" as in John 20:17.
There is really very little difference between my understanding of how YHWH
revealed Himself in Y'shua and the "Incarnation". Snow sees that fact and it
disappoints him. You don't, and Vince doesn't, and it worries both of you.
Funny.
Sigh. One mo' time now. I have no dispute with John 1:1 or John 1:14. I do
believe that the Word, the Son of God, the Logos, was "incarnated", if you
want to use that term, in the womb of Miryam, that He tabernacled with us
for 33 years or so, died for our sins, was resurrected, reigns and will
reign at YHWH's side until His Second Coming. And I believe that His eternal
Subordination to YHWH is and continues to perfectly express and exemplify a
supreme mutual love.
If you accepted Paul, which I know you don't, you would note that Paul
refers to YHWH as �the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 15:6; 2
Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 11:31; Eph 1:3), as �the God of our Lord Jesus Christ� (Eph
1:17), and as "God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Col 1:3). These
identifications, and the inherent subordination, are consistent with John
20:17.
I don't throw around terms like Incarnation, or Consubstantial, or
Hypostatis, or Trinity for that matter. I don't need them in my ongoing
dialogue with the Almighty. I'm not a neo-Platonist, nor am I a Roman
Catholic or Greek Orthodox. You can tell, 'cause I don't dress in a cassock,
fidget with a rosary or pray to Mary Mediatrix.
Shalom,
John.
"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:59bcf9d9-078d-4913...@u37g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
Snow
This is a post that I made to another person contributing that I
thought you might find interesting.
> Can you be a son (child) of God without receiving Christ as your
> savior? Answer - no.
This is your answer but the Hebrew understanding of scriptures say
otherwise. You did not complete the thought written about by John.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to
become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor of
the desire of man, but of Elohim.
Now notice it does not say whose name except that of Elohim. How is
it that you continue to deny the name of YAHWEH? Rather than continue
to tell you what you already know, that “god” is a mistranslation,
I’ll speak to the Messianic understanding.
Elohim is a collective of the prophets, including Moses. To be the
“children of Elohim” simply means that you are of that collective of
knowledge.
Isa 45:21 “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel
together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from
that time? Is it not I, YAHWEH? And there is no mighty one besides Me,
a righteous Ěl and a Saviour, there is none besides Me.
Isa 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I
am Ěl, and there is none else.
YAHWEH on the other hand is Elohim of Elohim and there is NO OTHER.
Deu 10:17 “For YAHWEH your Elohim is Elohim of mighty ones and Master
of masters, the great Ěl, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality
nor takes a bribe.
My deity is YAHWEH and I have no other. The deity of the Messiah was
YAHWEH and he called out to him and proclaimed his name that is lost
in translation of the Greek.
Elohim (Strong's H430)
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
Here is the greatest translation flaw of the Scriptures crossing the
lips of every English speaking man on Earth.
Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O YHWH, among the EL?
(KJV)
Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?
Gods? Has anybody recognize the KJV says there is only one deity?
How come the world is able to recognize ONE deity and still have
scriptures that speak of gods, not false gods but gods?
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Even the mistranslated commandment speaks of other “gods”, not false
gods. According to the scriptures, “God” is one and there is no
other, period.
(KJV) Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God
beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
If there is “NO GOD” beside him, then every translation that says,
“Gods”, not false gods, must be a mistranslation. The name of the
Almighty and the Hebrew understanding restored reads:
Isa 45:5 ‘I am Yahweh, and there is none else
– there is no Elohim besides Me. I gird you,
though you have not known Me,
What about when we restore this understanding to the New Testament?
Mar 12:29 And Yehoshua answered him, The first of all the commandments
is, Hear, O Israel; YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
Here we have a direct quote of Deuteronomy so that we can have no
doubt exactly what is said in the Hebrew when it quotes Deutoronomy:
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Yahweh is the ONE, the only and besides him there is no other.
Christians MUST ignore this simply because it means that they are
practicing a pagan religion. The do not desire truth, they desire to
maintain their dogma.
Gen 32:30 for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have
seen Elohim face to face, and my life is preserved.
In Genesis it’s recorded that Jacob wrestled all night with a man
“face to face” with “God” in almost all versions. It was how IsraEL
got its name. This presents a bit of a problem in the later text:
Exo 33:20 But He said, “You are unable to see My face, for no man does
see Me and live.”
Now examine John.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;
Jacob saw somebody face to face and the KJV tells you it’s “God”… who
did he see?
Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen Elohim. The only brought-forth Son, who
is in the bosom of the Father, He did declare.2 Footnotes: 1See 5:37,
6:46, 1 John 4:12. 2The pre-existent Son declared, and was the One who
appeared to men.
If we recognize that no one sees the Father and lives, it must be the
Son that wrestled with Jacob. This is why the name is IsraEL. Not
because Jacob wrestled with YHWH because the Torah is very clear he
would not have survived such an event. In this we see the truth of
the statement:
Joh 8:58 Yehoshua said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you,
Before Abraham was, I am.
This is not a declaration that he is the Almighty; simply that he was
pre-existent as one of the “Sons of Elohim”. I point this out to you
because in this example, we clearly see that “Elohim” a plural word
meaning “mighty one”, is mistranslated in most scriptures as “God”.
Next example.
Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a
great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor
taketh reward:
We know that there is only one supreme deity named YHWH so how can he
be “God of gods”?
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God, and there is none else.
If there is no other “God” how can it speak of plural gods and being
God of Gods? The word God is a mistranslation! The Hebrew word
Elohim applied reads:
Deu 10:17 For YHWH your Elohim is the mighty one of the elohim , and
Sovereign of sovereign, a great El, mighty, and terrible, which
regardeth not persons, nor taketh bribes:
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am El, and there is none else.
So we see that there is more than one Elohim and that they have a sort
of rank and structure where One is the Father and with him are his
servants, messengers (known as Malak translated angels) and Sons. God
is a word from the Germanic versions of scriptures that conveyed the
idea of a deity from the time of the Gutenberg Bible and its roots are
pagan, not Hebrew.
> Does becoming a son of God make you equal to Christ.
>Answer again -
> no. Christ is above all, he has been given a name that is above every
> name in heaven and on earth.
Do you not consider your brother an equal?
Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the
heavens is My brother and sister and mother.”
>By faith in him we are ADOPTED as sons,
> BECAUSE of Yeshua.
Don’t blame Yehoshua on your BAAL worship, he never said to worship
him.
Joh 12:49 For I have NOT spoken of MYSELF; but the Father WHICH SENT
ME, HE GAVE me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should
speak.
> The promise of the Spirit comes from Yeshua. It is this Spirit by
> which we receive *adoption* as sons into the family of God that is
> *Yeshua's by birthright*. He is the only begotten Son of God, the Word
> made flesh who was in the beginning with God and WAS God. None of us
> are the Word made flesh. Only Yeshua is that, and only he has the
> "glory as of the ONLY begotten Son of God, full of grace and truth".
Joh 5:30 “Of Myself I am unable to do any matter.
Joh 5:31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
Funny because my deity is all powerful and is not a man, he never
changes. So while you continue in your dogma wondering why you have
never actually manifested the signs of a true believer, it is because
you have chosen to believe a faulty translation of scriptures that has
everybody from Moses to You being a deity.
Exo 7:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to
Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
You are entitled to believe as you wish but at no point in scriptures
was Moses ever made a deity to be worshiped by Israel, Pharaoh or
anybody else for that matter. Clearly, “God” is a mistranslation.
Joh 10:34 Yahushua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are Theos?
Theos being the Greek word translated “God”.
We know that this is a quote of Psalm 82:6 and we know the Hebrew word
was Elohim and so it naturally follows that what is “written” is based
in the Hebrew scriptures for understanding.
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are elohim; and all of you are children of
the most High.
Yehoshua is ELOHIM, just like Moses or any other mighty one but that
does not make him the Almighty.
Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness to Yahweh of
hosts in the land of Mitsrayim. When they cry to Yahweh because of
the oppressors, He sends them a Savior and an Elohim, and shall
deliver them.
Moses was an Elohim to Israel and Aaron was his prophet.
Exo 4:16 “And he shall speak for you to the people. And it shall be
that he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be an elohim for him.
Exo 7:1 And YAHWEH said unto Moses, See, I have made thee elohim to
Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Abraham was an Elohim and Adonai which in KJV could be translated LORD
GOD.
Gen 23:5 And the sons of Ḥĕth answered Aḇraham, saying to him, 6
“Hear us, my master [adonai also translated LORD in KJV]: You are a
Elohim [translated mighty in kjv but also GOD] prince among us. Bury
your dead in the choicest of our burial places. None of us withholds
from you his burial site, from burying your dead.”
Clearly Theos has been mistranslated to God instead of Elohim. I
don’t see any Christians running around trying to prove we should
worship Abraham and Moses and even Yehoshua said:
Mat 4:10 Then saith Yahushua unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it
is written, Thou shalt worship YHWH thy Elohim, and him only shalt
thou serve.
Again he says, “it is written” so we know it’s based on the Hebrew
text that reads:
Deu 6:13 Thou shalt fear YAHWEH thy Elohim, and serve him, and shalt
swear by his name.
Deu 6:14 Ye shall not go after other elohim, of the elohim of the
people which are round about you;
You should know that several words end up being translated to “God”
and it varies according to version but generally they include Eloah,
Elohim, El, adonai (lord) sometimes, Baal (lord or master) and even
the set part name of YHWH.
This might help you to understand how confusion reigns in the English
scriptures. I would strongly recommend you read when you have time:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua/web/removing-the-name-of-yhwh
I hope this made sense to you. This link should probably be
considered part two of this discussion.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret; it is only with the
heart that one can see rightly, what is essential is invisible to the
eye. If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood
and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long
for the endless immensity of the sea.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- please join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
http://www.e-sword.net/ Free bible software
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
or
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip
Jude Alexander
vince garcia
>
> In the O.T. "The word of God" was always the message of God.
and in the NT as well! But the Jews had a concept about Deity called
"the word of God" that even carried over into the cabbalistic teachings
of the 10 sephirot, where "the word" is the highest aspect of God.
So identifiable is "the Word" with God Himself that an Aramaic targum of
Genesis actually says that Adam and Eve heard "the Word of the Lord"
walking in the garden! John's usage, as shown in the last half of john
1:1, is clearly to affirm that "the Word" was Christ Himself, and that
"the Word" is Deity.
John Gardner
stick to Augustine, Calvin, Knox -- looks like U might be a closet messianic
...
John
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B2A3A...@ix.netcom.com...
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B2A3A...@ix.netcom.com...
vince garcia
>
> Watch it, garcia - you're quoting Aramaic targums as authority
They are sometimes quoted by the apostles, so no issue with that.
They are clearly not inerrant and infallible, but can be extremely
useful.
- U should
> stick to Augustine, Calvin, Knox -- looks like U might be a closet messianic
Uh, no I'm anyhthing but a closet messianic--because messianic teachers,
who basically have come along in the last 30 years, teach outright
heresy, not simply different opinions within the framework of argual
nonessential issues.
And I personally detest augustine. But his writings are certainly less
heretical than messianic writings.
John Gardner
"Christian" Bible interpretation?
What's your heresy scale, Vince? One that condones Augie's high Catholic
view of the Pope as supreme earthly political ruler -- but rejects a sincere
study of the context and language of Yeshua's message as an aid to
understanding it?
Put away that Targum, boy! Get back to Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, etc. - the
Real Christian heavy-weights!
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B2A63...@ix.netcom.com...
Linda Lee
It does "say whose name"; he has taken those two verses out of
context; the verse preceding and following the ones he's chosen to
cite reveal it is talking about the name of the Messiah, not the name
of YHWH:
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness
comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the
world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
> How is
> it that you continue to deny the name of YAHWEH? Rather than continue
> to tell you what you already know, that “god” is a mistranslation,
> I’ll speak to the Messianic understanding.
>
> Elohim is a collective of the prophets, including Moses. To be the
> “children of Elohim” simply means that you are of that collective of
> knowledge.
That is so FALSE, it's astonishing. God Himself is called Elohiym
("Elohim") over 6,000 times in the New Testament. The children of
Elohiym/God are NOT simply those who share the "collective of
knowledge" of the prophets.
<snipt>
guardian Snow
> > Elohim is a collective of the prophets, including Moses. To be the
> > “children of Elohim” simply means that you are of that collective of
> > knowledge.
>
> That is so FALSE, it's astonishing. God Himself is called Elohiym
> ("Elohim") over 6,000 times in the New Testament. The children of
> Elohiym/God are NOT simply those who share the "collective of
> knowledge" of the prophets.
As usual, scriptures supports my assertion:
Psa 82:6 I, I said, “You are elohim, And ALL of you are sons of the
Most High.
Psa 82:7 “But as men you die, And fall as one of the heads.”
The Messiah quoted this verse in relation to himself but he also said:
Mat 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, because they shall be called
^sons of Elohim^.
The “SONS”, plural is shown to be true in this recording by Luke:
Luk 20:35 but those who are counted worthy of attaining that age, and
the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in
marriage,
Luk 20:36 for neither is it possible for them to die any more, because
they are like messengers and are **sons of Elohim**, being sons of the
resurrection.
Luk 20:37 “But that the dead are raised, even Mosheh showed at the
bush when he called YAHWEH ‘the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of
Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ.’
Luk 20:38 “Now He is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living,
for all live to Him.”
Luk 20:39 And some of the scribes answering, said, “Teacher, You have
spoken well.”
This same concept is also put forward here:
Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the desire of My Father WHO IS IN THE
HEAVENS is MY BROTHER and sister and mother.”
Trinity Christians must reject so many passages of the New Testament,
it really is sad to see that they reject Yehoshua as a brother and if
we are brothers of the Son of Elohim, that also makes each and every
one of us, a Son of Elohim if we do the desires of our Father in
Heaven.
>
> <snipt>
“The Messiah told his real apostles to be as “harmless as doves” when
he sent them forth to preach:
Matt. 10:16, “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of
wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and HARMLESS AS DOVES as
doves”. “
Linda Lee
Snow: Why do you not practice what you preach Linda????
“Why would the Messiah instruct the apostles to preach while being
"harmless as doves", and then send Paul forth to act in the
threatening manner that he himself says he did in order to make people
accept he was an apostle?”
Linda Lee
Snow: Why do you post “in the threatening manner” in order to make me
accept you?
>I
> still will not renounce Christ as God incarnate as you insist I do,
Linda, I don't care what you do or what you believe.. I simply want
you to stop posting to and about me and I will do the same when you
agree to that... I have zero desire to ever call you, know you or
speak of you once you agree to stop your obsessional with me.
I can’t read your post Linda, they make people dumber for having even
looked at them. You can read this the first time or the hundredth time
this gets spammed back at you Linda but this is it.. I’m done with
you.
Rev 22:11 “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy,
let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more
righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.
Dear very SICK, DEMENTED STALKER. Please feel free to end this boring
and exhibits many traits of a Lesbian, where all men are pigs and she
Linda Lee
> In the O.T. "The word of God" was always the message of God.
Almost always; following are a couple of times "the word of God" seems
to refer to God Himself who is speaking to someone:
1Ch 17:3 And it came to pass the same night, that __the word of God
came to Nathan, saying,__
1Ch 17:4 Go and tell David my servant, Thus saith the LORD, Thou
shalt not build me an house to dwell in
1Ki 12:22 But __the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God,
saying,__
1Ki 12:23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon... saying...
1Ki 12:24 ...Ye shall not go up, nor fight
Usually if they received words from God, they either had a vision or a
dream or a visit from an angel, and the texts say that was the case.
Here in these two instances "the word of God" comes to them and is
"saying" something to them.
Those verses also seem different (because Nathan and Shemaiah are
given specific words to tell someone) than these instances referring
to receiving God's guidance:
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and
the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a
corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
Isa 30:21 And __thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying,
This is the way,__ walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and
when ye turn to the left.
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto
thine own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and __he shall direct thy
paths.__
Linda Lee
> I'm aware of the Scriptures you cited. In the NT cites, I believe the Greek
> word is consistently PROSKUNEIO. This word has a range of meanings which you
> can and should research in Strong's/eSword, etc. Basically, it means to
> prostate onself; do obeisance. (I'm at work now & don't have the time to
> cite all the references, but people proskuneo'd before many sorts of
> dignitaries in Bible times - without necessarily "worshipping" them!)
I had already checked out all instances of the words translated
worship or worshipped (and I use the KJV Bible because it is keyed to
the Strong's on e-sword and elsewhere and I can easily check out the
meaning of the original words).
The same Greek word proskuneō is used when referring to worshipping
God the Father, as here:
John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
him in spirit and in truth".
The word here translated 'worship' - Gk. 4352
προσκυνέω
proskuneō
pros-koo-neh'-o
"From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to KISS, like
a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is,
(literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence
to, adore): - worship".
(Notice too how this definition of "kiss" corresponds to "Kiss the
Son", indicating Worship the Son, from Ps. 2:11-12.)
> I believe the Greek word for "sacred service" is LATREIO (sp?), which I don't
> think is used in reference to Yeshua.
No it isn't; however, almost all (95%) references to worshipping God
use that word proskuneō that is also used in reference to worship of
Christ.
The word latreuō is only used a few times -- in Paul's epistles and
once by Luke in Acts 7:42.
Acts 7:42 "Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of
heaven".
The word here translated 'worship' - Gk. 3000
λατρεύω
latreuō
lat-ryoo'-o
"From λάτρις latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), that is,
render religious homage".
If all of the angels of God were to worship "the firstbegotten into
the world"/Christ on Earth, why would men and women worshipping him be
forbidden?
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my
Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a
Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the
world, he [GOD] saith, And LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM [the
Son].
Notice the capitalized words in the following from 'John Gill's
Exposition of the Entire Bible':
"Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth the first begotten into the
world;.... By "the first begotten" is meant Christ. This is a name
given him in the Old Testament, and is what the Hebrews were
acquainted with, and therefore the apostle uses it; it is in Psa_89:27
from whence it seems to be taken here, and which the ancient Jews (u)
acknowledge is to be understood of the MESSIAH ...they are called upon
to worship God's firstborn, his only begotten Son, with a religious
worship and adoration, even all of them, not one excepted; which
shows, that CHRIST, AS THE FIRST BEGOTTEN, IS THE LORD GOD, FOR HE
ONLY IS TO BE SERVED AND WORSHIPPED; and that __IF ANGELS ARE TO
WORSHIP HIM, MEN OUGHT;__ and that angels are not to be worshipped,
and that Christ is preferable to them; and the whole sets forth the
excellency and dignity of his person. Philo the Jew (w) often calls
the Logos, or Word of God, his first begotten."
None of the commentators' notes I looked at knew where Heb. 1:6 is
quoting from, but I think it may be referring to Job 38:6-7, since
Christ is the "corner stone" (I Pet. 2:6), angels worship God with
joyous singing, and Christ was foreordained to act as the Saviour
before the foundation of the world was laid (I Pet. 1:20):
Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without
knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee,
and answer thou me.
Job 38:4 Where wast thou WHEN I LAID THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who
hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who LAID
THE CORNER STONE thereof;
Job 38:7 WHEN THE MORNING STARS SANG TOGETHER, AND ALL OF THE SONS OF
GOD SHOUTED FOR JOY?
I Pet. 2:6, "Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture [in Isa.
28:16], Behold, I lay in Sion a chief CORNER STONE, elect, precious:
and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded".
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without
blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the
world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits,
and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and
ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
>
> Basically, Yeshua's message was, If you want to Honor Me; Worship my God and
> My Father. More later if I have time.
True, because God is really always Spirit and was in the flesh for
only a short time, but the Messiah taught his apostles that the Father
and Son were to be revered equally, and if the Son wasn't honored,
they weren't honoring the Father either:
John 5:23, "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour
the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father
which hath sent him".
The word here translated 'honour' - Gk. 5091 - "to prize, that is, fix
a valuation upon; by implication to revere".
>
> John/Jochanan.
>
> "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote in message
Linda Lee
wrote:
> On Dec 18, 12:11 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > > Elohim is a collective of the prophets, including Moses. To be the
> > > “children of Elohim” simply means that you are of that collective of
> > > knowledge.
>
> > That is so FALSE, it's astonishing. God Himself is called Elohiym
> > ("Elohim") over 6,000 times in the New Testament. The children of
> > Elohiym/God are NOT simply those who share the "collective of
> > knowledge" of the prophets.
>
> As usual, scriptures supports my assertion:
Baloney, as ALWAYS, you've misinterpreted them.
You said yesterday you had my posts killfiled; which was why my
refutation of the errors in your post was so impersonal. I guess you
were just LYING again, this time to Jude, wasn't it?
There was nothing nasty or personal in my post regarding your posts'
contents. If you weren't so NUTS, you would understand that people who
believe differently than you are going to refute your posts, and I
have no intention of letting you post your garbage without proving it
WRONG.
You're something else, always the same, you argue your point of view
with me, THEN after you get your argument in, you order me not to post
to you and start with the vile name calling and false accusations. You
are really a sick person.
*** Oh, by the way, the next time I see you've spewing out your lies
calling me a "Lesbian", as you've done here, or a "murderer", I'm
going to start playing by your own rules, and we'll see how YOU like
the internet reputation of being a murderer and someone whose been
having sex with males since you were very young.***
Are you delusional again, Snowjob? There was no threatening manner in
the post you're replying to.
>
> >I
> > still will not renounce Christ as God incarnate as you insist I do,
>
> Linda, I don't care what you do or what you believe.. I simply want
> you to stop posting to and about me and I will do the same when you
> agree to that...
Forget it. I have explained to you 50 times that you cannot post in a
public forum with impunity; this is not your private podium, and when
you post, those who believe differently than you are going to be free
and feel free to comment on your posts. See a psychiatrist for a
change, and tell them how frustrated you are that you can't control
everyone on the Internet. ROFLOL! They'd admit you for some mental
health care immediately.
> I have zero desire to ever call you,
Call me??? What lies are you making up now, you insane dodo? I have
never spoken to you and never intend to. You are just spewing out the
desperate lies again because you can't support your antichrist idiotic
posts.
> know you or
> speak of you once you agree to stop your obsessional with me.
>
> I can’t read your post Linda, they make people dumber for having even
> looked at them. You can read this the first time or the hundredth time
> this gets spammed back at you Linda but this is it.. I’m done with
> you.
>
> Rev 22:11 “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy,
> let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more
> righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.
>
> Dear very SICK, DEMENTED STALKER. Please feel free to end this boring
> spam war at any time and agree to actually follow the teachings of the
> Messiah...
>
> What this means is that you go your way in peace and make your post..
> I go my way and make my post and we have no need to ever speak to each
> other ever again...
>
> Mat 15:14 “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
> if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.”
>
> You see, I am not the one that is in love with you.. you are the one
> that is in love with me
And don't delude yourself that anyone, especially me, is in love with
you; nothing you've ever lied about could be further from the truth.
LOL!
guardian Snow
> Forget it. I have explained to you 50 times that you cannot post in a
> public forum with impunity; this is not your private podium, and when
> you post, those who believe differently than you are going to be free
> and feel free to comment on your posts. See a psychiatrist for a
> change, and tell them how frustrated you are that you can't control
> everyone on the Internet. ROFLOL! They'd admit you for some mental
> health care immediately.
still don't care Linda. The difference is.. you care what I think and
you show proof by stalking me.
When posting to “Christian” forums, I can understand why Paul said the
following quote:
Rom 3:10 As it has been written, “There is none righteous, no, not
one! 11 “There is no one who is understanding, there is none who is
seeking Elohim. 12 “They all have turned aside, they have together
become worthless. There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13
“Their throat is an open tomb, with their tongues they have deceived,”
“The poison of adders is under their lips,” 14 “Whose mouth is filled
with cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed
blood, 16 ruin and wretchedness are in their ways, 17 and the way of
peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of Elohim before
their eyes.”
It’s a shame this represents so many people in these forums. I do not
agree that there are “none righteous” but they will not hear you or
anybody else for that matter. They have been acting this way for a
very long time and they have no desire for peace and no desire to obey
the teachings of the” way of peace” taught by their so called deity.
Luk 1:79 to give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of
death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”
Every day they continue to demonstrate that they are filled with hate,
envy and pure vile as they spew venom at every person that attempts to
reason with them.. And don't bother quoting scriptures to them...
they will find a way to justify themselves in their own mind.
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go, first make
peace with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Mat 25 “Be
well-minded with your opponent, promptly, while you are on the way
with him, lest your opponent deliver you to the judge, and the judge
to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
You can quote every scripture in the entire bible about "love thy
enemy":
Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those cursing
you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those insulting you and
persecuting you,
So.. I pray for them...
Mat 5:39 but I say to you, do not resist the wicked. But whoever slaps
you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
I turn the other cheek when I am ABLE to resist listening to their
wickedness:
Luk 6:27 “But I say to you who are hearing: Love your enemies, do good
to those hating you.
You know how hard it is to do well to those hating you? Let me tell
you.. It’s hard and they test the very fabric of your being and it is
this lesson I am still working on...
Luk 6:35 “Rather, love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting
none in return. And your reward shall be great, and you shall be sons
of the Most High. Because He is kind to the thankless and wicked ones.
They has no love for any person, no respect and they demonstrate a
complete inability to follow the teachings of scriptures:
Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, “Every plant which My heavenly
Father has not planted shall be uprooted. 14 “Leave them alone. They
are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both
shall fall into a ditch.”
They don’t care that scriptures say to leave people you disagree with
alone and they don’t care that the scriptures say:
Isa 55:7 Let the wrong forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his
thoughts. Let him return to Yahweh, who has compassion on him, and to
our Elohim, for He pardons much. 8 “For My thoughts are not your
thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares Yahweh. 9 “For as
the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your
ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
Or that the New Testament says to us:
Rev 22:11 “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy,
let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more
righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.
Or that the prophets say:
Eze 3:27 “But when I speak with you, I open your mouth, and you shall
say to them, ‘Thus said the Master Yahweh.’ He who hears, let him
hear. And he who refuses, let him refuse, for they are a rebellious
house.
I have refused to hear them and still they ignores all these teachings
and continue spout nonsense to me on a daily bases. The reality is:
1Pe 3:10 For “He who wishes to love life and see good days, let him
keep his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking deceit,
1Pe 3:11 let him turn away from evil and do good, let him seek peace
and pursue it.
1Pe 3:12 “Because the eyes of YHWH are on the righteous, and his ears
are open to their prayers, but the face of YHWH is against those who
do evil.”1 Footnote: 1Ps. 34:12-16.
I have sought peace and now I leave it in the hands of the Almighty
because:
Isa 54:17 “No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every
tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall prove wrong. This
is the inheritance of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness
from Me,” declares YHWH.
I trust the word of YHWH. Truly it is best to speak the truth and
leave the wicked to their own devices:
Psa 28:3 Do not draw me away with the wrong And with the workers of
wickedness, Who speak peace to their neighbours, But evil is in their
hearts.
Psa 28:4 Give to them according to their deeds, And according to the
evil of their practices; Give to them according to the work of their
hands; Bring back to them what they deserve.
Psa 28:5 Because they do not heed the works of YHWH, Nor the works of
His hands, He throws them down, And does not build them up.
Psa 28:6 Blessed be YHWH, Because He has heard the voice of my
prayers!
Psa 28:7 YHWH is my strength, and my shield; My heart has trusted in
Him, and I have been helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my
song I thank Him.
Psa 28:8 YHWH is the strength of His people, And He is the stronghold
of deliverance of His anointed.
Psa 28:9 Save Your people, and bless Your inheritance; And be their
Shepherd, and bear them up forever.
All they do is show evidence of unbelief!
Yahweh desires that we know and understand but this does not happen
when we waste our time passing OUR judgment on our other people. The
scriptures are very clear in that we are not to strive with other
people. Now this is not to say that we can’t have a spirited debate
which by the very meaning is righteous, only that it is not our place
to seek to subvert other peoples understandings.
Eze 18:23 “Have I any pleasure in the death of the wrong?” declares
the Master Yahweh. “Is it not that he should turn from his ways, and
live?
I strongly recommend people read Ezekiel especially chapters, 3, 18
and 33 which are all relevant to the topic.
Deu 17:12 “And the man who acts arrogantly, so as not to listen to the
priest who stands to serve there before Yahweh your Elohim, or to the
judge, that man shall die. So you shall purge the evil from IsraEL.
We have ONE JUDGE and ONE CREATOR who will judge all, don’t try to
think it’s you. Be Humble.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Respond directly:
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
The heart of another is a dark forest, always, no matter how close it
has been to one's own.
Willa Cather
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation,
nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
Mohandas Gandhi
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
http://messianicyehoshua.googlegroups.com/web/RNKJV.zip <--free
download of the Restored Names King James Version
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other
time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that
we seek.
Barack Obama
Linda Lee
wrote:
> On Dec 18, 3:49 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Forget it. I have explained to you 50 times that you cannot post in a
> > public forum with impunity; this is not your private podium, and when
> > you post, those who believe differently than you are going to be free
> > and feel free to comment on your posts. See a psychiatrist for a
> > change, and tell them how frustrated you are that you can't control
> > everyone on the Internet. ROFLOL! They'd admit you for some mental
> > health care immediately.
>
> still don't care Linda. The difference is.. you care what I think and
> you show proof by stalking me.
You are delusional; if I cared what you think, I'd obey your
tyrannical orders, wouldn't I?
I have explained to you 50 times that you cannot post in a public
forum with impunity; this is not your private podium, and when you
post, those who believe differently than you are going to be free and
feel free to comment on your posts. See a psychiatrist for a change,
and tell them how frustrated you are that you can't control everyone
on the Internet. ROFLOL! They'd admit you for some mental health
care immediately.
>I have sought peace
Your last post from about an hour ago that I answered about 20 minutes
ago, and which you're replying to now, proves that is a LIE, as in it
you were at your vicious best.
>Truly it is best to speak the truth
Another implied lie from Snowjob the compulsive liar who obviously
doesn't feel it is best to speak the truth.
I suggest that you really put my posts in a killfile (as you lied and
said you did yesterday) if you don't want to see your
misinterpretations of the Scriptures refuted.
Linda Lee
>
> > Forget it. I have explained to you 50 times that you cannot post in a
> > public forum with impunity; this is not your private podium, and when
> > you post, those who believe differently than you are going to be free
> > and feel free to comment on your posts. See a psychiatrist for a
> > change, and tell them how frustrated you are that you can't control
> > everyone on the Internet. ROFLOL! They'd admit you for some mental
> > health care immediately.
>
> still don't care Linda. The difference is.. you care what I think and
> you show proof by stalking me.
>
> When posting to “Christian” forums, I can understand why Paul said the
> following quote:
>
> Rom 3:10 As it has been written, “There is none righteous, no, not
> one! 11 “There is no one who is understanding, there is none who is
> seeking Elohim. 12 “They all have turned aside, they have together
> become worthless. There is none who does good, no, not one.” 13
> “Their throat is an open tomb, with their tongues they have deceived,”
> “The poison of adders is under their lips,” 14 “Whose mouth is filled
> with cursing and bitterness.” 15 “Their feet are swift to shed
> blood, 16 ruin and wretchedness are in their ways, 17 and the way of
> peace they have not known.” 18 “There is no fear of Elohim before
> their eyes.”
>
> It’s a shame this represents so many people in these forums.
It's a shame you cannot see that it describes you, hypocrite.
<snip many self-justifying lies Snowjob's posted trying to make
himself appear moral>
> they demonstrate a
> complete inability to follow the teachings of scriptures:
>
> Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, “Every plant which My heavenly
> Father has not planted shall be uprooted. 14 “Leave them alone. They
> are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both
> shall fall into a ditch.”
>
> They don’t care that scriptures say to leave people you disagree with
> alone
It has been explained to you many times that this ("Leave them alone.
They are blind leaders of the blind.) means not to follow false
teachers; it does not mean not to refute your misinterpretations of
the Scriptures you've posted in a public forum.
> and they don’t care that the scriptures say:
>
> Isa 55:7 Let the wrong forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his
> thoughts. Let him return to Yahweh, who has compassion on him
This also does not mean to let you post your misinterpretations of the
Scriptures unrefuted; it is talking about REPENTANCE.
>
> Or that the New Testament says to us:
>
> Rev 22:11 “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy,
> let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more
> righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.
Again you've misinterpreted this; it is speaking about Judgment Day
when it will be too late for the wrong to forsake their evil ways or
for the filthy to become clean. It does not mean to leave you alone in
your wrongness and filth.
>
> Or that the prophets say:
>
> Eze 3:27 “But when I speak with you, I open your mouth, and you shall
> say to them, ‘Thus said the Master Yahweh.’ He who hears, let him
> hear. And he who refuses, let him refuse, for they are a rebellious
> house.
>
> I have refused to hear them
Yes, you have and you are still free to refuse the truth and remain
rebellious. That does not mean people are not to refute your public
misinterpretations of the Scriptures.
> I have sought peace
That is a bald-faced lie; you have been waging war in an evil lying
manner since last July until an hour ago.
> Truly it is best to speak the truth
Keep that in mind the next time you have the urge to lie and say I'm a
lesbian or a murderer; because I am done playing with you.
guardian Snow
> > > Forget it. I have explained to you 50 times that you cannot post in a
> > > public forum with impunity; this is not your private podium, and when
> > > you post, those who believe differently than you are going to be free
> > > and feel free to comment on your posts. See a psychiatrist for a
> > > change, and tell them how frustrated you are that you can't control
> > > everyone on the Internet. ROFLOL! They'd admit you for some mental
> > > health care immediately.
>
> Keep that in mind the next time you have the urge to lie and say I'm a
> lesbian or a murderer; because I am done playing with you.
Done.. really.. promise... What are you going to do? Stop posting to
me:)) How funny.
vince garcia
>
> Well, if you personally detest Augie so much, why recommend him as a norm of
> "Christian" Bible interpretation?
because those notes are from something else I wrote, which is
ecumanical, and includes catholics, hemnce the reference to augustine.
And many protestants are edified by him as well, though I am not one of
them
>
> What's your heresy scale, Vince? One that condones Augie's high Catholic
> view of the Pope as supreme earthly political ruler -- but rejects a sincere
> study of the context and language of Yeshua's message as an aid to
> understanding it?
Given the choice between catholic or messianic, I'd choose catholic in a
heartbeat!
God forbid i return to the vomit of messianic judaism and its false
gospel that i have seen, and continue to see, and was once a part of
duke
<mr_snow...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>On Dec 18, 12:11�pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>> > Elohim is a collective of the prophets, including Moses. �To be the
>> > �children of Elohim� simply means that you are of that collective of
>> > knowledge.
>>
>> That is so FALSE, it's astonishing. God Himself is called Elohiym
>> ("Elohim") over 6,000 times in the New Testament. �The children of
>> Elohiym/God are NOT simply those who share the "collective of
>> knowledge" of the prophets.
>
>As usual, scriptures supports my assertion:
>Psa 82:6 I, I said, �You are elohim, And ALL of you are sons of the
>Most High.
Psalm 82:6 (New International Version)
6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'
>The Messiah quoted this verse in relation to himself but he also said:
>Mat 5:9 �Blessed are the peacemakers, because they shall be called
>^sons of Elohim^.
Matthew 5:9 (New International Version)
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
YeshuatheWay
> John Gardner wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
> You can post all the words you want, and use whatever hebrew terms you
> like, but if your point is to deny that JESUS is fully God and fully
> man, you have a false messiah, and we Christians are told not even to
> wish you a good day.
>
> There is nothing edifying about your post; it is messianic false
> teaching, trying to keep people in deception, or else get them to leave
> the REAL messiah in order to accept a false messiah who is less than
> fully God.
>
> Oh--and i know of no one named "sha'ul"
>
> Your messianic re-creation of PAUL in your own messianic image, your
> appealing to the Zohar to validate your doctrine, and your using the
> name YESHUA in order to deny the what the real JESUS are despicable
> examples of satan trying to promote the false gospel of the Judaisers
> Paul fought so tirelessly against.
>
> I wish you would pull out your circumcision knife, and castrate yourself
You have a problem with someone calling Biblical JEWS with their true
Hebrew names? Yeshua IS His Name. "Jesus" is his anglosized Greek
name from Iesous Christos.
guardian Snow
> > I wish you would pull out your circumcision knife, and castrate yourself
>
> You have a problem with someone calling Biblical JEWS with their true
> Hebrew names? Yeshua IS His Name. "Jesus" is his anglosized Greek
> name from Iesous Christos.
Which presents a problem when you consider:
Joh 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged, but he who does not
believe is judged already, because he has not **believed in the
Name*** of the only brought-forth Son of Elohim.
When you consider that our Hebrew Messiah sits on the throne of David,
you have to wonder about all the anti-semitic remarks that float
around these various ng's.
Zadok
"guardian Snow" <mr_snow...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message ...
>When you consider that our Hebrew Messiah sits on the throne of David,
>you have to wonder about all the anti-semitic remarks that float
>around these various ng's.
When you realize that David's throne was on this earth, and
any throne that your messiah sits on is not of this earth, then
even an idiot like you should be able to comprehend, that
your messiah is not sitting on David's throne.
And if you had brains enough to follow the genealogy in the bible, you would
know that
no descendant of Jehoiakim could ever sit on the threone of David.
And even though your bible leaves out Jehoiakim, he is the missing
generation in Matthew between Josias
and Jechonias. See 1 Chronicles 3: 15 and 16.
Your own bible tells us that your messiah could not sit on David's throne.
Amazing!! Jeremiah 36: 30 tells us that Jehoiakim would have no one sit on
the throne of David.
Therefore, this is what the LORD says about Jehoiakim king of Judah: He
will have no one to sit on the throne of David; his body will be thrown out
and exposed to the heat by day and the frost by night.
Kind of makes your claim a joke!!
But then you are a joke.
Smile.
jos boersema
Weirdos. Who you call 'jesus' is your Mythrash Roman cult.
Your entire religion really hasn't much to do with the Torah.
The entire jesus-religion is an attack on the Torah, by attempting
to claim a position Jeremiah 31:31. Little do you realize that the
Torah is in fact true, and it will in fact happen, and all of the
western people's will have to face up to having lied for almost
2000 years about the obvious, and murdered many jews and indeed
other jesus-cultists over what's merely a bunch of nonsense.
You talk about the Throne of David, here is a throne I'm proposing:
http://www.socialism.nl/~joshb/aksie/2008_02_02-Monarchy.html
Why this throne ? Because I think it is a good idea, which will
help reduce national corruption. By the way, that throne means
nothing without the Constitution. It is a Throne which has embedded
into it the 4 elements of a coherent nation and economy:
- democratic government (but then real which means NOT hellenistic,
but 'indian')
- democratization of corporations
- socialization of investment credit
- distribution of land.
The throne (as you can read, this throne is merely an additional
proposal) is first build up of 4 slabs of stone, about the size
of a 2 seat sofa up to sitting-level. Each slab stands for one of
the 4 elements:
Democratic
Authorities,
Ventures,
Investments,
Demarcations (which also implies no empires, only kingdoms).
First letters spell 'DAVID,' the name of the system, the same
system used in the Torah essentially (you can make it out, despite
how reactionary the jews have been, which caused the Democratic
Authorities element to get destroyed by the golden calf, the first
borns do not guide Israel because they chose tyrani over the Torah;
they would have gotten, imho, an 'indian' type state model.)
On each slab would be some words reminding the throne of these 4
principles.
Then the throne is completed with a back slab and two arm rests, so
that it becomes a 2 seater sofa, all made from hard rock and it is
all to be straight. No nice sitting spaces, no curbs: hard rectangular
unforgiving rock. You might want to use a nice strong granite for it,
too. That is to remind the throne that decisions can hurt people.
It is a 2 seater sofa which means: the King/Queen, and the People,
in particular: 'the dialogue' as such (between the People themselves
in particular.) With the King/Queen (head of state) on one side of
the throne, and another person on the other side (regardless of who),
who sits center in the position of power ? Their interaction. It has
some more details.
I say that is a good Throne, which may help.
So you see: it is all a real thing, on this Earth. The stone from which
it is to be cut will come from some rockbed, it will be cut by stone
saws by some people who have done it before. It's then driven to a
location, presumably within a building that is deemed fit for the
purpose by that nation, assembled together. It's not this magic which
you Mythrash/jesus cultists are always busying yourselves, while the
world falls to pieces around you. It is a real thing, the Head of
State might or might not sit on it on occaision; indeed anyone could
sit on it, it's not really that important is it. But it's a focus
point in space for a nation, where the head of state is a focus point
in a person. As such it may help to create order, and therefore law,
and justice.
*
I'm not going to sit on that throne, by the way, I'm not looking to
become the King Elect of Israel after the revolution; someone else
will stand for the EC elections and win them, and then become their
King Elect (which is not like a King/Queen function as you know it,
it is a different kind of function). You can call that King or Queen
of Israel ''the messiah of Israel,'' I suppose, though I'm not really
aware of the meaning of the word 'messiah' that well; it could
potentially be right (Kings/Queens where called 'messiah' ?).
It's not exactly sure (to me) this will all happen, because it seems
Israel is intend on following the neo-Roman empire to hell. But we'll
have to wait and see what happens. Perhaps it will take centuries
before it all comes to pass, and maybe we'll first find ourselves
back into the stone age or bronze age from the catastrophic wars that
humanity is cooking up, who knows.
--
http://www.socialism.nl
vince garcia
First off, you have no evidence whatever that Christ's name WASN'T
Jesus. The name Jesus, straight out of the septuagint, which was
familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known to everyone,
and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call Him JESUS.
So stop making a claim you cannot prove, but is in direct opposition to
what the new testament text technically SAYS!
Beyond that, my gripe is that when messianics use the name Yeshua, they
typically are doing it to repudiate orthodox christianity.
I have nothing but contempt for messianics like that; they are the dung
of the earth
Yeshua IS His Name. "Jesus" is his anglosized Greek
> name from Iesous Christos.
Uh, no--you cannot prove that, and the Bible says something else.
Come here to california and I'll introduce you to mexicans who are named
michael or miguel, or Mary or Maria.
PS--your ignorance of aramaic is apparent, because you clearly don't
know how the name was even pronounced in Gallilee; it was NOT yeshua,
yah-ho-shu-a or anything like that.
Linda Lee
The name Jesus is not anywhere in the Septuagint; you are thinking of
the Greek name Iesous (which was translated into Latin as Iesus, and
then from Latin into English as Jesus). It's all in the etymology of
the name Jesus in an English dictionary:
Jesus -
"Origin:
1200–50; Middle English < LL Iēsus < Gk Iēsoûs < Heb Yēshūaʿ,
syncopated var. of Yəhōshūaʿ God is help".
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009.
> which was
> familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known to everyone,
> and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call Him JESUS.
The actual English translation of the text says Joseph was to call him
Jesus.
>
> So stop making a claim you cannot prove, but is in direct opposition to
> what the new testament text technically SAYS!
You know the English New Testament is a translation from other Greek/
Latin/Hebrew texts, so "technically" doesn't identify the original
name of the Messiah.
>
> Beyond that, my gripe is that when messianics use the name Yeshua, they
> typically are doing it to repudiate orthodox christianity.
What irks me is I've been told the Messianic community knows his name
really wasn't Yeshua`, rather it's Yahashua`, but the Aramaic
translation of Yeshua` is their "favorite name" for him. I guess just
about everyone pretty much picks a favorite name for him and ignores
and rejects his actual name.
>
> I have nothing but contempt for messianics like that; they are the dung
> of the earth
>
> > Yeshua IS His Name. "Jesus" is his anglosized Greek
>
> > name from Iesous Christos.
>
> Uh, no--you cannot prove that, and the Bible says something else.
The English dictionary's etymology proves his name was not originally
Yeshua`; it was originally a variant spelling of Yahashua` (The Yəho
in Yəhōshūaʿ is a Masoretic reconstruction of names beginning with
God's name YAHH (translated "JAH" in the KJV Bible - Ps. 68:4).
Qadosh Stephanos
<mr_snow...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>Rom 3:10 As it has been written,
Funny how you defend yourself with quotes from your enemies.
YeshuatheWay
> YeshuatheWay wrote:> > You have a problem with someone calling Biblical JEWS with their true
> > Hebrew names?
>
> First off, you have no evidence whatever that Christ's name WASN'T
> Jesus. The name Jesus, straight out of the septuagint, which was
> familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known to everyone,
> and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call Him JESUS.
>
> So stop making a claim you cannot prove, but is in direct opposition to
> what the new testament text technically SAYS!
>
> Beyond that, my gripe is that when messianics use the name Yeshua, they
> typically are doing it to repudiate orthodox christianity.
>
> I have nothing but contempt for messianics like that; they are the dung
> of the earth
>
> Yeshua IS His Name. "Jesus" is his anglosized Greek
>
> > name from Iesous Christos.
>
> Uh, no--you cannot prove that, and the Bible says something else.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Really now LOL!? I guess you must think that his name was Jeshua then
LOL! The Septuagint was a GREEK document, written IN GREEK. So your
point is moot. Jesus is not a GREEK term. Iesous IS. Ask the Greek
Orthodox and see how wrong you are...Vince. Yeshua is a derivative of
the name Joshua יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘) or Hebrew-Aramaic יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
(Yĕhōšuă‘).
vince garcia
>
> On Dec 19, 8:38� pm, vince garcia <vggarci...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > YeshuatheWay wrote:> > You have a problem with someone calling Biblical JEWS with their true
> > > Hebrew names?
> >
> > First off, you have no evidence whatever that Christ's name WASN'T
> > Jesus. The name Jesus, straight out of the septuagint, which was
> > familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known to everyone,
> > and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call Him JESUS.
> >
> > So stop making a � claim you cannot prove, but is in direct opposition to
> > what the new testament text technically SAYS!
> >
> > Beyond that, my gripe is that when messianics use the name Yeshua, they
> > typically are doing it to repudiate orthodox christianity.
> >
> > I have nothing but contempt for messianics like that; they are the dung
> > of the earth
> >
> > Yeshua IS His Name. � "Jesus" is his anglosized Greek
> >
> > > name from Iesous Christos.
> >
> > Uh, no--you cannot prove that, and the Bible says something else.
> >
> -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Really now LOL!? I guess you must think that his name was Jeshua then
> LOL! The Septuagint was a GREEK document, written IN GREEK. So your
> point is moot. Jesus is not a GREEK term. Iesous IS.
Look, ass--there are no vowels in hebrew either, so take your head out
of your ass because you know exactly what i meant, just as i knew what
YOU meant even tho you were inserting vowels into hebrew that don't
exist.
Ask the Greek
> Orthodox and see how wrong you are...Vince. Yeshua is a derivative of
> the name Joshua
Huh? You're whacked. It's the other way around--JESUS (Iesous) is the
greek name derived from the hebrew
And like i said, I know any number of full blood mexicans named either
michael or miguel
יֵשׁוּעַ (Yēšûă‘) or Hebrew-Aramaic יְהוֹשֻׁעַ
> (Yĕhōšuă‘).
Apparently you're agreeing with me when I point out the actual biblical
text used the GREEK name there, not hebrew, and so you have no evidence
whatever they gave Jesus an aramaic name rather than the greek name
everyone was equally acquainted with.
And by the way, you're still an ignoramus for writing it as yeshua
because you clearly don't know how the 30+ dialects of aramaic (16
today), and specifically the gallilean version, pronounced the name.
But go ahead--try to bluff it out by posting some googled facts about
aramaic to make it look like you really know about the language when you
clearly don't, and your ignorance is apparent.
vince garcia
These messianic imbeciles are so ignorant they don't even know how to do
any REAL research into the world of Christ; all they can do is parrot
other messianic illiterates, none of whom have studied enough to be
aware that the gallilean form of aramaic did not pronounce the name as
yeshua at all.
As ignorant as they are on even the name of Christ--which they all harp
on--is how wrong they are on every other bit of doctrine they hold.
As I noted, satan laughs at them the whole time
YeshuatheWay
> > > YeshuatheWay wrote:> > You have a problem with someone calling Biblical JEWS with their true
> > > > Hebrew names?
>
> > > First off, you have no evidence whatever that Christ's name WASN'T
> > > Jesus. The name Jesus, straight out of the septuagint, which was
> > > familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known to everyone,
> > > and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call Him JESUS.
>
> > > what the new testament text technically SAYS!
>
> > > Beyond that, my gripe is that when messianics use the name Yeshua, they
> > > typically are doing it to repudiate orthodox christianity.
>
> > > I have nothing but contempt for messianics like that; they are the dung
> > > of the earth
>
>
> > > > name from Iesous Christos.
>
> > > Uh, no--you cannot prove that, and the Bible says something else.
>
> > -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Really now LOL!? I guess you must think that his name was Jeshua then
> > LOL! The Septuagint was a GREEK document, written IN GREEK. So your
> > point is moot. Jesus is not a GREEK term. Iesous IS.
>
> Look, ass--there are no vowels in hebrew either, so take your head out
> of your ass because you know exactly what i meant, just as i knew what
> YOU meant even tho you were inserting vowels into hebrew that don't
> exist.
>
> Ask the Greek
>
> > Orthodox and see how wrong you are...Vince. Yeshua is a derivative of
> > the name Joshua
>
> Huh? You're whacked. It's the other way around--JESUS (Iesous) is the
> greek name derived from the hebrew
>
> And like i said, I know any number of full blood mexicans named either
> michael or miguel
>
>
> > (YĕhŠšuă‘).
>
> Apparently you're agreeing with me when I point out the actual biblical
> text used the GREEK name there, not hebrew, and so you have no evidence
> whatever they gave Jesus an aramaic name rather than the greek name
> everyone was equally acquainted with.
>
Aw, whatz da matter Vince, got your feelings hurt? You keep talking in
circles LOL! Here are the facts. Let me talk a little slower so you
can understand it this time. "Jesus" is an anglosized version of the
Latin "Iesus" which is a version of the Greek "Iesous". I provided
the Hebrew spelling and added vowels so people here could figure out
how to pronounce it in ENGLISH. The only ignoramus here is you Vince,
for a lack reading comprehension and love of arguement. YOU are
agreeing with us that Jesus was derived from the original textual
Greek. However, since Jesus was a JEW...he had a Hebrew name. Whether
or not others called Him "Iesous" within a written Greek text is a
moot point. It was written for a Greek speaking audience...obviously.
Did that go over your head too? In addition, His name was written in
Hebrew, Greek and latin on the plaque on the cross. If you want to
argue about the small differences in spelling between local Aramaic
and Hebrew...knock yourself out LOL!
vince garcia
No--it's just that your utter stupidity is clear every time you make a
point you cannot prove, which actually technically contradicts the
written scripture. But that's what a fool like you typically does.
In addition, His name was written in
> Hebrew, Greek and latin on the plaque on the cross. If you want to
> argue about the small differences in spelling between local Aramaic
> and Hebrew...knock yourself out LOL!
YOU knock yourself out. You're the one hung up on what the name
technically was, and rather than going by the technicality of what the
scripture actually SAYS, you instead provide a bastardized name that
anyone who's studied the language spoken would know is NOT the name He
had.
YeshuatheWay
>
> YOU knock yourself out. You're the one hung up on what the name
> technically was, and rather than going by the technicality of what the
> scripture actually SAYS, you instead provide a bastardized name that
> anyone who's studied the language spoken would know is NOT the name He
>
Uh Vince...it is YOU that are running around in circles. YOU wrote:
"First off, you have no evidence whatever that Christ's name WASN'T
Jesus. The name Jesus, straight out of the septuagint, which was
familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known to
everyone, and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call Him
JESUS."
You have already been proven wrong on this. The original NT text was a
GREEK document...thus it was written as "Iesous". I never argued that
fact...YOU did. YOU were the one that was initually hung up on someone
using "Yeshua", not me. No original scriptures ever used "Jesus"
except anglosized translations. BTW, the Septuagint was a GREEK
translation of the OT, thus you would never see the term "Jesus" in it
anyway. Now, stop making an ass out of yourself...
vince garcia
>
> On Dec 23, 7:42 am, vince garcia <vggarci...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > YOU knock yourself out. You're the one hung up on what the name
> > technically was, and rather than going by the technicality of what the
> > scripture actually SAYS, you instead provide a bastardized name that
> > anyone who's studied the language spoken would know is NOT the name He
> > had.- Hide quoted text -
> >
>
> Uh Vince...it is YOU that are running around in circles. YOU wrote:
>
> "First off, you have no evidence whatever that Christ's name WASN'T
> Jesus. The name Jesus, straight out of the septuagint, which was
> familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known to
> everyone, and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call Him
> JESUS."
>
> You have already been proven wrong on this.
uh, no. You haven't PROVEN that at all, because the macro issue you're
trying to deflect is the fact that the scriptures gave Christ a
greek--not hebrew--name. You say no, He had a hebrew name. Well,
perhaps. But the claim is not PROOF. If we go by scripture alone, Jesus
was named Jesus (Iesous if you really need to anal)
The original NT text was a
> GREEK document...thus it was written as "Iesous". I never argued that
> fact...YOU did.
You misunderstood my argument then. I was simply using the name we all
know, just as I use the names we all know for othe bible characters
without using literal greek or hebrew pronunciations. The macro issue is
whether your assertion Jesus was named yeshua (or whatever other habrew
name you want to give Him) or whether He was liteally named with a GREEK
name.
There is no absolute *proof* to your contention. End of story.
YOU were the one that was initually hung up on someone
> using "Yeshua", not me.
I am hung up on your using it to deny the orthodox Christain religion in
favor of heretical messianic judaism. That's why you messianics do it.
>No original scriptures ever used "Jesus"
No argument. Nor did they use YESHUA.
> except anglosized translations.
BTW, the Septuagint was a GREEK
> translation of the OT, thus you would never see the term "Jesus" in it
> anyway.
You would see the name Iesous which is transliterated as JESUS, just as
Eliyahu is transliterated ELIJAH.
Now, stop making an ass out of yourself...
You're the ass. You're a messianic. That's as big an ass as you can make
of yourself.
You're also a coward who won't post under his own name. Afraid to be
identified as what you are? Anonymity safer for you?
Snow
John Gardner
one who broods about the self-castration of posters he disagrees with.
Would this be a bit like teaching a KKK'r how to shake hands with Mrs.
Obama?
John/Jochanan
"Snow" <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote in message
news:b56afe59-e475-45d6...@g4g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Snow
> I second that one! But I wonder if common ng courtesy can be expected from
> one who broods about the self-castration of posters he disagrees with.
>
> Would this be a bit like teaching a KKK'r how to shake hands with Mrs.
> Obama?
>
> John/Jochanan
I just think it's a bit of common respect but when I see them go
around changing peoples titles, I realize that it's because they are
afraid of the truth... They don't want people to see discussions where
things like "the deity of Jesus" are debated and the reality is that
the ONLY way that their ignorance continues to this date is by hiding
the truth not only from their own eyes but from everybody else's eyes
too. When people realize that Yehoshua stated plainly that one was
greater then himself and that of his own, he could do nothing... it
becomes painfully obvious to anybody that is willing to have an open
heart that "Jesus" is not a deity to be worshiped.
Common sense doesn't drive these people.. the need to uphold their
life long conditioning and beliefs are what motivate them. They are
not seeking truth.. they are simply looking to show evidence that
their own mistranslated beliefs are the only view that can be told.
They show evidence of this by attacking anybody that disagrees with
them... just like the people that I have on my kill file list and I'm
ignoring.. :) We know who they are..
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>On Dec 27, 4:44�am, "John Gardner" <gardner1...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> I second that one! But I wonder if common ng courtesy can be expected from
>> one who broods about the self-castration of posters he disagrees with.
>>
>> Would this be a bit like teaching a KKK'r how to shake hands with Mrs.
>> Obama?
>>
>> John/Jochanan
>
>I just think it's a bit of common respect but when I see them go
>around changing peoples titles, I realize that it's because they are
>afraid of the truth... They don't want people to see discussions where
>things like "the deity of Jesus" are debated and the reality is that
>the ONLY way that their ignorance continues to this date is by hiding
>the truth not only from their own eyes but from everybody else's eyes
>too.
Whether true or not, how does it make you any different,
when you snip my posts and attack me, because you won't
deal with what's said there. All it does, with your post here,
is make you a hypocrite.
And you can attack me if you wish, but that is my whole point.
That is what you do. Snip and attack, to avoid the issue.
> When people realize that Yehoshua stated plainly
> that one was greater then himself
...and you completely ignore what I posted about
this subject and snipped it all and pretended that
it didn't happen (my post).
You have absolutely refused to deal with what
I said about this, just as all of your kind have,
even though my post was a detailed response
to your claims and therefore, you cannot in
any way accuse me of the same.
So it goes as follows, in chronological order:
1) You post something about this.
2) I respond, in detail, to every single one
of your claims/points.
3) You intentionally snip and ignore what
I responded with and personally insult
me and later claim that I dodged you.
But hey, what a great believer, so full of
Biblical wisdom you are, huh?!? (:
Now go ahead and attack me and call me a liar,
but make sure to do as you always do, which is
to snip and avoid.
Or better yet, don't snip anything this time,
thinking that it will fool everyone into thinking
that you haven't done exactly that so many
times before!
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
If the professor on Gilligan's Island can make a radio
out of a coconut, why can't he fix a hole in a boat?
Linda Lee
> Vince. Stop being a jack ass and changing other peoples titles.
Only you can do that?
Linda Lee
In his “Why the Christian church fails...” thread, Snowjob brags about
his manipulations and admits he deliberately draws Christians into
conflict by trying “to push their buttons” saying:
“I am happy that some are beginning to recognize that I am
manipulating them because it is easy to do. The first question one
should be asking is, “Why is it so easy to manipulate them?”
How easily are they drawn into conflict? They seek it out because
their self esteem is so faulty that unless they are insulting other
people and making sloppy attempts to berate others, they would begin
to look at their own behavior and recognize the Orwellian circles
their logic takes them in.
Knowing what motivates these people makes it all too easy to push
their buttons and if I can do it so easily, I feel sorry for them, no,
I pity all of them for being so easily drawn to hatred and anger when
they are supposed to be representing the "Prince of Peace" by their
speeches and hypocrisy.”
- from his “Why the Christian Church Fails...” thread on 12/18/98
(where he fails to realize that it is WRONG to manipulate other people
and that if he is manipulatively trying to “push their buttons” that
it is he, and not Christians, that is seeking conflict – from
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bible/msg/34b97e26497b4d51
According to your illogical misinterpretations of the Scriptures and
your satanic thinking, there is not one person on Earth worthy to be
called a Christian, so Christ's ministry utterly failed (hence your
“Why the Christian church fails...” thread where you are quoted
above).
“Snow”/Snowjob says:
“Eze 3:27 “But when I speak with you, I open your mouth, and you
shall
say to them, ‘Thus said the Master Yahweh.’ He who hears, let him
hear. And he who refuses, let him refuse, for they are a rebellious
house.
I have refused to hear them and still they ignores all these teachings
and continue spout nonsense to me on a daily bases." - 12/17/09 -
from http://groups.google.com/group/alt.bible/msg/89eff5dce1d514eb
Why do you persist in attacking Christians as heretics and in playing
the hypocrite by preaching your antichrist beliefs when it is obvious
people have refused to hear YOUR nonsense?
YeshuatheWay
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeez Vince, you just don't know when to stop do you? Uh YES, I have
proven you wrong that the name "JESUS" is NOT in the Septuagint as YOU
claimed from YOUR own quote above LOL! Here, I will repost it for you
yet again:
VINCE wrote: "First off, you have no evidence whatever that Christ's
name WASN'T Jesus. The name Jesus, straight out of the septuagint,
which was familiar to the apostles and many many jews, was well known
to everyone, and the actual text of scripture says Joseph was to call
Him JESUS."
You say you are using the name you know...Jesus. Fine. But Greeks know
Him as "Iesous" while Jewish believers use Yeshua". This is what you
had a cow about, yet YOU are doing the same thing LOL! The name
"Jesus" is not in scripture, it is an ENGLISH term. Arabs (both
Christians as well as Muslims) use the term "Isa". Are you going to
blast them for that too because it is not "Jesus" or "Iesous"? You
seem to forget, as the Apostles went into different countries,
Scriptures were translated into those languages. The Arabic term is
"Isa". This term was used before the term "Jesus" was ever used.
Of course I am "Messianic"! Every Christian that believes Jesus is the
Messiah is a "Messianic" LOL! You make me laugh, I can't deny the
"Orthodox Christian religion". I AM Orthodox! I never said what I
was...you ASSumed I was something you seem to have a grudge against. I
have no problem with my Jewish brothers and sisters who believe in
Yeshua, just as I have no problem with the Greeks who believe in
Iesous or Arabs that believe in Isa. Why do you?
Also, why is it when someone can't make their point, they start
whinning about internet names? People don't use their real names for a
reason. There are LOTS of unstable people who may do bad things when
you disagree with them and make them look like asses....so again I ask
you to stop acting like an ass...
Snow
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 09:52:18 -0800 (PST), Snow
>
>
>
> >On Dec 27, 4:44 am, "John Gardner" <gardner1...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >> I second that one! But I wonder if common ng courtesy can be expected from
> >> one who broods about the self-castration of posters he disagrees with.
>
> >> Would this be a bit like teaching a KKK'r how to shake hands with Mrs.
> >> Obama?
>
> >> John/Jochanan
>
> >I just think it's a bit of common respect but when I see them go
> >around changing peoples titles, I realize that it's because they are
> >afraid of the truth... They don't want people to see discussions where
> >things like "the deity of Jesus" are debated and the reality is that
> >the ONLY way that their ignorance continues to this date is by hiding
> >the truth not only from their own eyes but from everybody else's eyes
> >too.
>
> Whether true or not, how does it make you any different,
> when you snip my posts and attack me, because you won't
> deal with what's said there. All it does, with your post here,
> is make you a hypocrite.
Changing the title can be appropriate when we are changing the topic,
not just to insult the person writing as so many people do to me and
you. Have I changed the titles in your threads... yes, but that was
because I was not addressing your post, I was speaking to you about
your repetitive posting tactics. At no point did I insult you or your
belief system in changing the topic and I think that is the big
difference Dave. I didn't change the topic to "The heresy of
Preterism" or "The heresy of anything..." I was talking about a
completely different issue from your beliefs and posting it in your
thread was my way of showing you the example where the same post came
out twice in a row.
It's one thing to speak about a belief system with respect to
others... I do that everyday when I speak about what I see are
grievous errors in Christian and Pauline dogma that don't match what
Moses, the Prophets and Yehoshua preached.
I have in the past even spoken about why I believe the religion of
Christianity is a failure but with respect to the people that practice
this faith that I seek to correct, not condemn individuals.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
A religious man is a person who holds God and man in one thought at
one time, at all times, who suffers harm done to others, whose
greatest passion is compassion, whose greatest strength is love and
defiance of despair.
Abraham Joshua Heschel
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- please join
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/messianic_Yehoshua/
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>> Whether true or not, how does it make you any different,
>> when you snip my posts and attack me, because you won't
>> deal with what's said there. �All it does, with your post here,
>> is make you a hypocrite.
>
> Changing the title can be appropriate when we are changing
> the topic,
Changing the topic means you've hijacked the thread.
The proper course is to start a new thread with the
new subject line and stick to the old subject in the
original thread. That's what a thread is. A topic.
> Have I changed the titles in your threads?
That wasn't what I was talking about, now was it.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
The Last Days were in the first century:
Romans 13:11-2
11) And that, knowing the time, that NOW
it is high time to awake out of sleep:
for NOW is our salvation nearer than when
we believed.
12) The night is far spent, the day is
AT HAND: let us therefore cast off the
works of darkness, and let us put on
the armor of light.
Snow
wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:34:31 -0800 (PST), Snow
>
> >> Whether true or not, how does it make you any different,
> >> when you snip my posts and attack me, because you won't
> >> deal with what's said there. All it does, with your post here,
> >> is make you a hypocrite.
>
> > Changing the title can be appropriate when we are changing
> > the topic,
>
> Changing the topic means you've hijacked the thread.
> The proper course is to start a new thread with the
> new subject line and stick to the old subject in the
> original thread. That's what a thread is. A topic.
I think your right in that respect but in the flow of a conversation,
changing titles and "hijacking" threads happens all the time. I would
say, "What is the intention of the change".. is it to insult the
author of the original post or is it just that the flow of
conversation demanded another topic...
Vince changed the topic to, "The Heresy of ... " or "More false
doctine..." to insult the person posting and to hide the original
question... I've changed to the topic to address that issue that arose
as a result of the original post. I think that asking,
"The Word Became Flesh - Meaning ...?"
is a valid question and John should be respected for asking and
posting his thoughts on that topic, not insulted and berated as a
false teacher or a heretic... It shows a level of maturity to respect
other peoples thoughts and honestly discuss them instead of simply
insulting the person with a nasty title change as so many do.
Snow
wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:09:13 -0800 (PST), guardian Snow
>
> >Rom 3:10 As it has been written,
>
> Funny how you defend yourself with quotes from your enemies.
Is it a defense or simply a statement?
vince garcia
>
> Of course I am "Messianic"! Every Christian that believes Jesus is the
> Messiah is a "Messianic"
Nice claim, but that's not really true. Christ-rejecting jews here say
they are 'messianic' because they're looking for a messiah to come--but
not JESUS.
the term 'messianic' is a literal term used for a stream of christinaity
that sadly is rife with heretics. used here at the NG, it typically
means somone who repudiates orthodox chistianity to embrace a form of
judaism that acknowledges Christ is messiah...but often then goes on to
denounce many essentials of the true christian faith as we see with
john, snow, aaron, and probably you.
LOL! You make me laugh, I can't deny the
> "Orthodox Christian religion". I AM Orthodox!
What does THAT mean? Orthodox greek? Russian orthodox? Orthodox
catholic? Orthodox evangelical?
You use terms open to interpretation, but you haven't shown any proof of
orthodoxy in your posts, whereas MY orthodox beliefs on the way of
salvation through faith alone, deity of Christ, the Law being fulfilled
and and not something obligatory to keep, and the inability of judaism
to sabve you from damnation are on record here on a weekly basis, and
I'm not afraid to proclaim them under my own name to you or anyone else.
Who are YOU?
You don't have the guts to even give your name, nor lay out your
theology in a clear, unequivocal manner for people to know just what you
are, and whether or not they should consider you a heretic or brother
I never said what I
> was...
I know--you hide it and your name.
you ASSumed I was something you seem to have a grudge against. I
> have no problem with my Jewish brothers and sisters who believe in
> Yeshua, just as I have no problem with the Greeks who believe in
> Iesous or Arabs that believe in Isa. Why do you?
Since you're too addled to understand it, I will speak more slowly:
Because...messianics (who use the name
yeshua)...typically...deny...one...or...more...essenitals...of...the...historic...christian...faith.
Is that slow enough for you?
See john, who now denounces paul. See snow who repudiates paul. See
aaron who has his own heresies about prayer to jesus is blasphe,y as
recent examples.
But they're your brethren in yeshua, right?
And if you call Jesus yeshua, I am certain you hold equally heretical
views in your own doctrine. They will crop up if you have the guts to
not hide them.
>
> Also, why is it when someone can't make their point, they start
> whinning about internet names?
I made my point. I simply have no respect for someone afraid to post his
name. They're cowards.
I'm proud of my name, and proud to post under it and offend people who
don't like hearing an accurate gospel that denounces their heresies. I
don't have to hide under a pseudonym
People don't use their real names for a
> reason. There are LOTS of unstable people who may do bad things when
> you disagree with them and make them look like asses
What a coward. You see anyone else here as cowardly as you are, who's
afraid to post under their real name? not many
I'm done responding to your post until you state your name and beliefs
plainly.
Won't do that? fine--talk to yourself because I have better things to do
than read the musings of a coward afraid to say who he is and what he
believes
vince garcia
Uh, no--John and you SHOULD be denounced, insulted and belittled as
false teachers and heretics since you deny or question paul's writings,
and you repudiate essentials of the Christian faith.
That makes you the worst sort of heretics.
It shows a level of maturity to respect
> other peoples thoughts
I have no respect for the paul-rejecting thoughts of you or john
whatever. You're both heretics headed for hell, and John proved every
point i made in my indictment against messianics.
Anyone who respects what either of you say and teach is a traitor to the
gospel.
and honestly discuss them
You've been discussed and confronted with the truth for years, and have
rejected it. There is nothing left to discuss; only denuciation of your
views by REAL Christians remains left to do
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<vggar...@ix.netcom.com> spake thusly:
> YeshuatheWay wrote:
>
>> Of course I am "Messianic"! Every Christian that
>> believes Jesus is the Messiah is a "Messianic".
>
> Nice claim, but that's not really true. Christ-rejecting
> Jews here say they are 'Messianic' because they're
> looking for a Messiah to come -- but not JESUS.
Key phrase... "say they are".
Technically, a Messianic Jew is one who believes
that the Messiah did come and that it is Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
The church is not there to expose the sin of its members,
but to cover them (1 Peter 4:8). If the church rejects
and shoots its injured, where will they go?
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
> On Dec 27, 8:39�pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:34:31 -0800 (PST), Snow
>> <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>>
>> >> Whether true or not, how does it make you any different,
>> >> when you snip my posts and attack me, because you won't
>> >> deal with what's said there. All it does, with your post here,
>> >> is make you a hypocrite.
>>
>> > Changing the title can be appropriate when we are changing
>> > the topic,
>>
>> Changing the topic means you've hijacked the thread.
>> The proper course is to start a new thread with the
>> new subject line and stick to the old subject in the
>> original thread. �That's what a thread is. �A topic.
>
> I think your right in that respect but in the flow of
> a conversation, changing titles and "hijacking" threads
> happens all the time.
Which does not make it okay, nor does it change
the truth of what I said, does it. :)
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"The Evolutionist will not get on a bullet train knowing
there's tracks missing down the line, but he certainly
gets on the Evolution Train with lots of tracks missing
in his story line!" - Old Man Joe
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<vggar...@ix.netcom.com> spake thusly:
> Snow wrote:
>
>> Vince changed the topic to, "The Heresy of ..."
>> or "More false doctine..." to insult the person
>> posting and to hide the original question...
>> I've changed to the topic to address that issue
>> that arose as a result of the original post.
>>
>> "The Word Became Flesh - Meaning ...?"
>>
>> is a valid question and John should be respected
>> for asking and posting his thoughts on that topic,
>> not insulted and berated as a false teacher or
>> a heretic...
>
> Uh, no--John and you SHOULD be denounced,
> insulted and belittled as false teachers and heretics
> since you deny or question paul's writings, and you
> repudiate essentials of the Christian faith.
Just FYI, I was not addressing what you two guys were
arguing about. I was only addressing what it means to
start "a thread" and that it means a "subject".
I'm not saying you are saying otherwise. I am just clarifying.
so that neither of you think that I am trying to comment on
that argument. I was only speaking of usenet netiquette. :)
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"Murder is unique in that it abolishes the party
it injures, so that society has to take the place
of the victim and on his behalf demand atonement
or grant forgiveness; it is the one crime in which
society has a direct interest." - W. H. Auden
vince garcia
Right. In fact, the term originated with christian jews in the late 19th
century, but we've seen some jews like miriam wolfe in the past try to
usurp it.
And as we see as well, many of those who claim to be 'messianic jews' do
not stop at affirming Christ as messiah, but go on to declare that
everyone must keep the law, while others deny paul's writings and get
into even deeper heresy.
Snow
> Uh, no--John and you SHOULD be denounced, insulted and belittled as
> false teachers and heretics since you deny or question paul's writings,
> and you repudiate essentials of the Christian faith.
How truly "Christian" of you and what a great demonstration of the
love of your deity is... nothing but a bunch of words to ignore on
your part.
YeshuatheWay
LOL! You were proven wrong and instead of being a man about it, you
attack me as a heretic of some sort (even though I have said nothing
of the sort...remember, they did that to Jesus as well as the
prophets) and attack me for using an internet name. What is the
difference what my name is? Isn't the content and truth of my posts?
You are the same kind of person that sees a well dressed man and
assumes he is a good person, yet the one in rags is the filthy bad
person. Wow! Sounds like YOU are the coward! So anyone that uses the
name "Yeshua" is a heretic according to you? I think you can be fairly
confident that John, Peter, and all the other early JEWISH believers
were Messianic as well as used His Hebrew name...and did NOT call Him
"Jesus"...and you say you are "Orthodox" LOL?? Yeah, right...
John Gardner
All I;ve said is that I've read most of a book in which the author, an
evangelical Christian, argues that Paul's teachings are subordinate in
authority to Yeshua's, and that any conflict between the teachings must be
resolved in favour of Yeshua.
For the record - I haven't come to a final resolution yet.
All of the Messianic Christians with whom I fellowship on Saturday, like all
the evangelical Christians I fellowship with on Sunday, fully accept the
Pauline books. (I don't know if they have considered Del Tondo's argument
and evidence.)
While there is no consensus on this point among Messianic Christians (as far
as I know) I can't believe that you, or anyone else, would take the view
that Yeshua's teachings have lesser authority than Paul's. That, IMHO, would
be a teaching of Anti-Christ.
John/Jochanan.
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B3757...@ix.netcom.com...
vince garcia
>
> Whoa there, Nellie! Where have I "denounced Paul"?
Sorry then. Your attitude seemed critical of his teachings the other
day. There are 100s of posts i don't have time to weed through to find
it, but you were going on along the lines of saying it was ridiculous to
think Jesus came so we could simply stop keeping all these laws that God
gave to be kept, and you seemed to be more persuaded, after going
through this book, that paul's writings were problematic.
>
> All I;ve said is that I've read most of a book in which the author, an
> evangelical Christian, argues that Paul's teachings are subordinate in
> authority to Yeshua's, and that any conflict between the teachings must be
> resolved in favour of Yeshua.
And that's error. There are NO conflicts between their teachings. He,
like other messianics, can't grasp there is a NEW--not RENEWED--covenant
in effect, and he does not know what he is doing.
If you find a 'contradiction' and resolve it 'in favor of what Christ
taught', you have set up a nonexistent problem and compromised the
faith.
I thought you and snow were being sympatico on seeing 'contradictions'
between paul and Jesus, and thus you were questioning the legitimacy of
paul's writings.
That's a sincere move if you're into torah observance, and I was
complimenting you on seeing the conundrum without perverting paul's
teachings like aaron, but if you're still affirming every point of
paul's writings are indisputably binding and inerrent theology, i
apologize for misunderstanding and misstating you.
>
> For the record - I haven't come to a final resolution yet.
>
> All of the Messianic Christians with whom I fellowship on Saturday, like all
> the evangelical Christians I fellowship with on Sunday, fully accept the
> Pauline books. (I don't know if they have considered Del Tondo's argument
> and evidence.)
>
> While there is no consensus on this point among Messianic Christians (as far
> as I know) I can't believe that you, or anyone else, would take the view
> that Yeshua's teachings have lesser authority than Paul's. That, IMHO, would
> be a teaching of Anti-Christ.
They have 100% equal authority and inerrancy with the voice of God on
Sinai. Beliving anything else is heresy.
vince garcia
>
> And that's error. There are NO conflicts between their teachings. He,
> like other messianics, can't grasp there is a NEW--not RENEWED--covenant
> in effect, and he does not know what he is doing.
Need to clarify--i understand the author is not messianic. I should have
said: "He, like messianics, apparently can't grasp there is a NEW--not
RENEWED--covenant in effect, and so he does not know what he is doing."
>
> That's a sincere move if you're into torah observance, and I was
> complimenting you on seeing the conundrum without perverting paul's
> teachings like aaron, but if you're still affirming every point of
> paul's writings**** are indisputably binding and inerrent theology, i
> apologize for misunderstanding and misstating you.
>
**** And in this verse, i should clarify that I mean where Paul speaks
on a point of faith or doctrine, he is indisputably inerrant.
Sorry for the confusion. I'm rushed rt now
Linda Lee
> JohnGardnerwrote:
There is no way Paul's writings have "100 % equal authority" with the
teachings of the Messiah as put forth by his true apostles. That is
heresy to the gospel of Christ to attempt to make Paul's word equal to
the Word of God. The Messiah _bothered_ to spend over three years
teaching the true apostles for good reason.
If Paul had truly been sent by the Spirit of the resurrected Messiah
(who apparently changed his mind about Paul after his death and
resurrection, even though God does not change), Paul would not have
been threatening to those he wanted to accept him as an apostle (see 2
Cor. 13:2-3 and 1 Cor. 4:21 below); he would have been "harmless as
doves" as the Messiah instructed the true apostles to be in their
teaching of his ministry.
And if Christ truly spoke through him, he wouldn't have _needed_ to
use threats to be accepted in the first place; the power of Christ's
truth would have been evident in him.
2 Cor. 13:2-3 "I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were
present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which
heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I
will not spare: Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me".
1 Cor. 4:21 "What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in
love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
Messiah to the true apostles:
Matt. 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
I can just see the true apostles saying "Shall I come to you with a
rod or in love?" - NOT.
vince garcia
That's how scripture works, linda. Peter, paul, john, james or jude are
100% equal in auhtority to the voice of God Himself.
>
> If Paul had truly been sent by the Spirit of the resurrected Messiah
> (who apparently changed his mind about Paul after his death and
> resurrection, even though God does not change), Paul would not have
> been threatening to those he wanted to accept him as an apostle (see 2
> Cor. 13:2-3 and 1 Cor. 4:21 below); he would have been "harmless as
> doves" as the Messiah instructed the true apostles to be in their
> teaching of his ministry.
>
> And if Christ truly spoke through him, he wouldn't have _needed_ to
> use threats to be accepted in the first place; the power of Christ's
> truth would have been evident in him.
>
> 2 Cor. 13:2-3 "I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were
> present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which
> heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I
> will not spare: Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me".
>
> 1 Cor. 4:21 "What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in
> love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
>
> Messiah to the true apostles:
> Matt. 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
> be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
>
> I can just see the true apostles saying "Shall I come to you with a
> rod or in love?" - NOT.
I stand by what he says.
Linda Lee
> LindaLeewrote:
> 100% equal in auhtority to the voice of God Himself.
>
> > If Paul had truly been sent by the Spirit of the resurrected Messiah
> > (who apparently changed his mind about Paul after his death and
> > resurrection, even though God does not change), Paul would not have
> > been threatening to those he wanted to accept him as an apostle (see 2
> > Cor. 13:2-3 and 1 Cor. 4:21 below); he would have been "harmless as
> > doves" as the Messiah instructed the true apostles to be in their
> > teaching of his ministry.
>
> > And if Christ truly spoke through him, he wouldn't have _needed_ to
> > use threats to be accepted in the first place; the power of Christ's
> > truth would have been evident in him.
>
> > 2 Cor. 13:2-3 "I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were
> > present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which
> > heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I
> > will not spare: Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me".
>
> > 1 Cor. 4:21 "What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in
> > love, and in the spirit of meekness?"
>
> > Messiah to the true apostles:
> > Matt. 10:16 "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
> > be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
>
> > I can just see the true apostles saying "Shall I come to you with a
> > rod or in love?" - NOT.
>
> I stand by what he says.
You can stand by it, but Paul didn't act like a real apostle, as the
true apostles were told to go forth teaching being "harmless as
doves". Paul's preaching did not have the ring of truth to it, so he
had to threaten the Corinthian believers into accepting him as an
apostle.
Linda Lee
> On Dec 17, 12:48 pm, "John Gardner" <gardner1...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Lesser" in the sense that He consistently and clearly directs honour,
> > praise and glory to His Father in Heaven. Not in any more general sense.
>
> > Yeshua's Father in Heaven doesn't come to Earth to teach men and women of
> > faith to pray to "MySonin Heaven" that His will be done. Yeshua's Father
> > does not refer to Y'shua as "My God and your God" as in John 20:17.
>
> > There is really very little difference between my understanding of how YHWH
> > revealed Himself in Y'shua and the "Incarnation". Snow sees that fact and it
> > disappoints him. You don't, and Vince doesn't, and it worries both of you.
> > Funny.
>
> > Sigh. One mo' time now. I have no dispute with John 1:1 or John 1:14. I do
> > believe that the Word, theSonof God, the Logos, was "incarnated", if you
> > want to use that term, in the womb of Miryam, that He tabernacled with us
> > for 33 years or so, died for our sins, was resurrected, reigns and will
> > reign at YHWH's side until His Second Coming. And I believe that His eternal
> > Subordination to YHWH is and continues to perfectly express and exemplify a
> > supreme mutual love.
>
> > If you accepted Paul, which I know you don't, you would note that Paul
> > refers to YHWH as “the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 15:6; 2
> > Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 11:31; Eph 1:3), as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph
> > 1:17), and as "God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Col 1:3). These
> > identifications, and the inherent subordination, are consistent with John
> > 20:17.
>
> > I don't throw around terms like Incarnation, or Consubstantial, or
> > Hypostatis, or Trinity for that matter. I don't need them in my ongoing
> > dialogue with the Almighty. I'm not a neo-Platonist, nor am I a Roman
> > Catholic or Greek Orthodox. You can tell, 'cause I don't dress in a cassock,
> > fidget with a rosary or pray to Mary Mediatrix.
>
> > Shalom,
>
> > John.
>
> This is a post that I made to another person contributing that I
> thought you might find interesting.
>
> > Can you be ason(child) of God without receiving Christ as your
> > savior? Answer - no.
>
> This is your answer but the Hebrew understanding of scriptures say
> otherwise. You did not complete the thought written about by John.
>
> Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to
> become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,
> Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor of
> the desire of man, but of Elohim.
>
> Now notice it does not say whose name except that of Elohim. How is
> it that you continue to deny the name of YAHWEH? Rather than continue
> to tell you what you already know, that “god” is a mistranslation,
> I’ll speak to the Messianic understanding.
>
> Elohim is a collective of the prophets, including Moses. To be the
> “children of Elohim” simply means that you are of that collective of
> knowledge.
>
> Isa 45:21 “Declare and bring near, let them even take counsel
> together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has declared it from
> that time? Is it not I, YAHWEH? And there is no mighty one besides Me,
> a righteous Ěl and a Saviour, there is none besides Me.
> Isa 45:22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I
> am Ěl, and there is none else.
>
> YAHWEH on the other hand is Elohim of Elohim and there is NO OTHER.
>
> Deu 10:17 “For YAHWEH your Elohim is Elohim of mighty ones and Master
> of masters, the great Ěl, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality
> nor takes a bribe.
>
> My deity is YAHWEH and I have no other. The deity of the Messiah was
> YAHWEH and he called out to him and proclaimed his name that is lost
> in translation of the Greek.
>
> Elohim (Strong's H430)
> 1) (plural)
> a) rulers, judges
> b) divine ones
> c) angels
> d) gods
>
> Here is the greatest translation flaw of the Scriptures crossing the
> lips of every English speaking man on Earth.
>
> Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O YHWH, among the EL?
> (KJV)
> Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?
>
> Gods? Has anybody recognize the KJV says there is only one deity?
> How come the world is able to recognize ONE deity and still have
> scriptures that speak of gods, not false gods but gods?
>
> Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
>
> Even the mistranslated commandment speaks of other “gods”, not false
> gods. According to the scriptures, “God” is one and there is no
> other, period.
>
> (KJV) Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God
> beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
>
> If there is “NO GOD” beside him, then every translation that says,
> “Gods”, not false gods, must be a mistranslation. The name of the
> Almighty and the Hebrew understanding restored reads:
>
> Isa 45:5 ‘I am Yahweh, and there is none else
> – there is no Elohim besides Me. I gird you,
> though you have not known Me,
>
> What about when we restore this understanding to the New Testament?
>
> Mar 12:29 And Yehoshua answered him, The first of all the commandments
> is, Hear, O Israel; YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
> Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thy heart,
> and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
> strength: this is the first commandment.
>
> Here we have a direct quote of Deuteronomy so that we can have no
> doubt exactly what is said in the Hebrew when it quotes Deutoronomy:
>
> Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
> Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thine heart,
> and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
>
> Yahweh is the ONE, the only and besides him there is no other.
> Christians MUST ignore this simply because it means that they are
> practicing a pagan religion. The do not desire truth, they desire to
> maintain their dogma.
>
> Gen 32:30 for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
> Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have
> seen Elohim face to face, and my life is preserved.
>
> In Genesis it’s recorded that Jacob wrestled all night with a man
> “face to face” with “God” in almost all versions. It was how IsraEL
> got its name. This presents a bit of a problem in the later text:
>
> Exo 33:20 But He said, “You are unable to see My face, for no man does
> see Me and live.”
>
> Now examine John.
> Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time;
>
> Jacob saw somebody face to face and the KJV tells you it’s “God”… who
> did he see?
>
> Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen Elohim. The only brought-forthSon, who
> is in the bosom of the Father, He did declare.2 Footnotes: 1See 5:37,
> 6:46, 1 John 4:12. 2Thepre-existentSondeclared, and was the One who
> appeared to men.
>
> If we recognize that no one sees the Father and lives, it must be theSonthat wrestled with Jacob. This is why the name is IsraEL. Not
> because Jacob wrestled with YHWH because the Torah is very clear he
> would not have survived such an event. In this we see the truth of
> the statement:
>
> Joh 8:58 Yehoshua said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you,
> Before Abraham was, I am.
>
> This is not a declaration that he is the Almighty; simply that he was pre-existent
> as one of the “Sons of Elohim”.
Wrong. The Messiah taught that if we did not believe he was I AM
(God), we would die in our sins:
In John 8:23-24 the Messiah said, “And he said unto them, Ye are from
beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this
world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for
if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins”.
Christ had actually said, “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die
in your sins”. (I have put the word "he" in brackets because it is in
italics in the Scriptures, as it was added to the text by the
translators.)
'John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible' says of Christ's
statement “if you believe not that I am” [The I AM of Exo. 3:14, God]
- "the everlasting and unchangeable I am, the true God, God over all,
blessed for ever; the eternal Son of God, God manifest in the flesh,
really made flesh, and become incarnate; the true Messiah, the only
Saviour of sinners; the one and only Mediator between God and man; the
Head of the church, prophet, priest, and King, and the Judge of quick
and dead; as also the light of the world he had declared himself to
be".
The Spirit of the resurrected Messiah said he was "the Almighty" (God)
in the book of Revelation.
In Rev. 1:8, the Spirit (i.e. the Holy Spirit), the resurrected
Messiah, says, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,
saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the
ALMIGHTY.”
In Rev. 1:11-18, the Spirit of the resurrected Messiah says, “I am
Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write
in a book ...I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was
dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of
hell and of death”.
In Isa. 44:6 the prophet Isaiah says, “Thus saith the Lord the King of
Israel [Yahashua` the Messiah] and his redeemer the Lord of Hosts
[God]; I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me there is no
God.”
Notice the phrasing, that we will know God has "sent" himself unto us:
In Zech. 2:10-11 God, “the Lord of Hosts”, says of his future
incarnation as the Messiah, “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion:
for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the
Lord. And many nations …shall be my people: and I will dwell in the
midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath SENT me
unto thee.”
In Rev. 21:3-7 the Spirit of the resurrected Messiah says he will be
our God and we will be his sons, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is
with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them, and be their God …I am Alpha and
Omega, the beginning and the end …I will give unto him that is athirst
of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall
inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
I John 2:22 says, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the
Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” I
John 2:23 continues, “whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the
Father”. They have not the Father, if they deny the Son, because
Father and Son are one and the same.
vince garcia
If you started churches and guys like snow or aaron started coming in
after you and tried to seduce the people in the churches you started
into believing their doctrines, would you be gentle as a dove, or would
you be threatening?
You're not gentle w/snow as it is. Imagine how you'd be if he were
actively trying to proselytise people you converted to his way of
thinking.
I understand Paul's rage. It comes through in his writings (and mine)
against the judaising heretics trying to infect the converts. You can
only hold in the rage for so long against these poor deceived people who
have no idea what the repurcussions are of what they believe and teach.
I know exactly how he felt!
Snow
> > You can stand by it, but Paul didn't act like a real apostle, as the
> > true apostles were told to go forth teaching being "harmless as
> > doves". Paul's preaching did not have the ring of truth to it, so he
> > had to threaten the Corinthian believers into accepting him as an
> > apostle.
>
> If you started churches and guys like snow or aaron started coming in
> after you and tried to seduce the people in the churches you started
> into believing their doctrines, would you be gentle as a dove, or would
> you be threatening?
>
> You're not gentle w/snow as it is. Imagine how you'd be if he were
> actively trying to proselytise people you converted to his way of
> thinking.
Afraid of debate? Afraid that only your doctrine can prevail?
Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, “Every plant which My heavenly
Father has not planted shall be uprooted.
Mat 15:14 “Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.”
Does it say to hate them or chase them out??? How come you have such
an issue following your own deity?
vince garcia
>
> On Jan 2, 1:35 am, vince garcia <vggarci...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > > You can stand by it, but Paul didn't act like a real apostle, as the
> > > true apostles were told to go forth teaching being "harmless as
> > > doves". Paul's preaching did not have the ring of truth to it, so he
> > > had to threaten the Corinthian believers into accepting him as an
> > > apostle.
> >
> > If you started churches and guys like snow or aaron started coming in
> > after you and tried to seduce the people in the churches you started
> > into believing their doctrines, would you be gentle as a dove, or would
> > you be threatening?
> >
> > You're not gentle w/snow as it is. Imagine how you'd be if he were
> > actively trying to proselytise people you converted to his way of
> > thinking.
>
> Afraid of debate?
I've given up 'debating' heretics. They never repent and come to the
truth, but simply say "It doesn't mean that" when you refute their
hersesy with scripture.
Or they do like you, and repudiate paul altogether
>Afraid that only your doctrine can prevail?
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The
Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name
of Christ depart from iniquity.
>
> Mat 15:13 But He answering, said, �Every plant which My heavenly
> Father has not planted shall be uprooted.
> Mat 15:14 �Leave them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And
> if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into a ditch.�
>
> Does it say to hate them or chase them out???
I quoted it to you before:
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her
son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the
freewoman.
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath
not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the
Father and the Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not
into your house,
neither bid him God speed:
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
No, we are not to be gentle as doves, or tolerant and kind, with
heretics claiming to be of Christ but teaching a different gospel of
torah observance and "renewed covenant"
Snow
Gen 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and
her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son,
even with Isaac.
So, you think that Isaac was not under the Torah, very interesting
because as we know, even Isaac was circumcised or are you going on
Paul's misquotes of this?
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman
and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the
son of the freewoman.
Son of the Free was Isaac, who shall not be put to shame:)
vince garcia
Not at all!
, very interesting
> because as we know, even Isaac was circumcised or are you going on
> Paul's misquotes of this?
so?
ROMANS CHAPTER 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of
circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the
oracles1 of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith
of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is
written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest
overcome when thou art judged.
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what
shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a
man)
6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his
glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm
that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is
just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before
proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after
God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become
unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used
deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them
who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the
world may become guilty before God
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified
in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without5 the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto
all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in
Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his
blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are
past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be
just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay:
but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the
deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes,
of the Gentiles also:
***
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith,
and uncircumcision through faith.
***
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we
establish the law.*