A city built by God
Doug
Jerusalem is built by man, not God. The prophet Isaiah identified the
walls of Jerusalem with salvation. [Isaiah 26:1] This is a spiritual
concept, and it applies to the saints, but not the literal city, which
suffered destruction by Nebuchadnezzar, and again under the Romans and
Titus in 70 AD.
The walls of the literal city were not able to save the Jews; however
Isaiah said, "Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor
destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation,
and thy gates Praise." [Isaiah 60:18]
Jews who took this prophecy literally, and applied it to the earthly
city, would have been disappointed. It refers to the city that God is
building.
Other prophecies and scriptures support this. For example, David prayed,
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite
heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Do good in thy good pleasure unto
Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem." [Psalm 51:17-18]
He prayed that God would build the walls of Jerusalem, which Isaiah
showed represent salvation by God, as Jerusalem is a type and figure of
the city of the saved.
David wrote, "For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of
Judah." [Psalm 69:35] So for David, Zion, and the cities of Judah, are
identified with God's salvation.
The church is the holy city that God is building today, not the earthly
city.
When God builds up Zion, David said, his glory will appear. No doubt it
appears in his saints.
Psalm 102:16-17
When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. He will
regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.
David said, "Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that
build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in
vain." [Psalm 127:1]
There is only one city that God builds; it is called Jerusalem, but it
the city is a spiritual one.
Again, David wrote, "The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth
together the outcasts of Israel." [Psalm 147:2]
Isaiah foretold that a person named Cyrus would give the word to build
Jerusalem, and the temple. The Gentile king of Persia who conquered
Babylon was named Cyrus, and also Darius, according to some scholars.
Evidently, in Isaiah's prophecy, Cyrus was a type of Christ. Some of the
things said of him apply to Christ.
Isaiah 44:26-28, 45:13
That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of
his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to
the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed
places thereof: That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy
rivers: That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my
pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the
temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. ... I have raised him up in
righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city,
and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD
of hosts.
Isaiah's prophecy also seems to allude to the famous decree that began
the 70 weeks of the prophecy of Daniel 9. It was Cyrus who gave the
commandment that liberated the Jews from exile, encouraging them to
return to rebuild their city and the temple. Daniel wrote:
Daniel 9:25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the
commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince
shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be
built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
The decree of Cyrus is recorded in 2 Chronicles 36:23.
Zechariah spoke of the rebuilding of the spiritual Jerusalem when he
wrote: "Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with
mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a
line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem." [Zechariah 1:16]
Matthew's gospel records Jesus saying said he will build his church. This
was said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and
upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it." [Matthew 16:18-19]
The church is the Jerusalem that Christ is building.
In Acts, James quoted a prophecy of Amos that said the tabernacle of
David would be rebuilt. James applied this to the church. He said: "Simeon
hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of
them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets;
as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the
tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the
ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek
after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith
the Lord, who doeth all these things." [Acts 15:14-17]
Here it is God who is rebuilding the tabernacle of David.
Paul described Christians as "God's building."
1 Corinthians 3:9-10
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are
God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as
a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth
thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
Paul also wrote: "For we know that if our earthly house of this
tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made
with hands, eternal in the heavens." [2 Corinthians 5:1]
Paul described Christians and the church as a temple having the prophets
and apostles as its foundation, and Jesus Christ as its chief
cornerstone.
Ephesians 2:19-22
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens
with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the
foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the
chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth
unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for
an habitation of God through the Spirit.
The church is the city that is built by God, which the prophets foresaw,
and described in their prophecies, under the figure of the earthly city
of Jerusalem. The author of Hebrews said that Abraham looked for this
eternal city which is made and built by God.
Hebrews 11:9-10
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country,
dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the
same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose
builder and maker is God.
In the following chapter this city is called "the heavenly Jerusalem."
Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the
general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in
heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made
perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood
of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
In Revelation, Jesus promises to make those who overcome pillars in the
temple of God.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he
shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and
the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down
out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
The "Jerusalem" that God is building, to which many of the prophecies and
promises apply, clearly is not the earthly city. Rather, the saints are
collectively referred to by the name Jerusalem, and Zion. The church is
the "heavenly Jerusalem" which is also referred to as "the bride, the
Lamb's wife." [Revelation 21:9]
--
Doug
bear
>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
Some more hallucinations by Doug, the cult trying to create a
following.
Bear
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
Several Old Testament scriptures show that Jerusalem was to be raised up,
above the mountains and hills, and the New Testament shows that this has
been accomplished, as Jerusalem has become a heavenly city.
Isaiah said Jerusalem would be "exulted" above the hills.
Isaiah 2:1-3
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the
LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall
be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the
mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach
us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go
forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Since in the New Testament, Jerusalem is raised up to heaven, it is above
all the hills and mountains of the earth! Zechariah gave a similar
prophecy about earth movements in Palestine, and Jerusalem being "lifted
up."
Zechariah 14:10
All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of
Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from
Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate,
and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
The location of Jerusalem is "above," Paul said. It is identified with
Sarah, as that is implied in Paul's allegory. He contrasts this city with
the earthly Jerusalem, which he identified with Hagar, the Egyptian
bondwoman who was cast out of Abraham's household.
Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
In Hebrews it is called "the heavenly Jerusalem."
Hebrews 12:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the
heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in
heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made
perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of
sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
In Revelation, John described Jerusalem descending out of heaven from
God. It is the "bride, the Lamb's wife."
Revelation 21:10-11
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and
shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven
from God,
Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most
precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem is to sprawl over the earth
While in prophecy of Isaiah 2:2 Jerusalem and Zion were to be raised up,
which is evidently fulfilled in the New Testament as those names are
applied to the heavenly Jerusalem, in a symbolic and figurative way,
other prophecies show that Jerusalem also would spread abroad, and its
population would be so great it could not be numbered. This follows from
a prophecy of Jeremiah, which compares the number of the seed of David to
the number of stars, or to the quantity of sand in the sea, which of
course are huge numbers. Jeremiah wrote:
Jeremiah 33:20-22
Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my
covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in
their season;
Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should
not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the
priests, my ministers.
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea
measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites
that minister unto me.
In the Mew Testament the saints are called "a royal priesthood." Priests
had to be of the tribe of Levi in the Mosaic system.
1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a
peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath
called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
In Daniel's interpretation of the dream of king Nebuchadnezzar recorded
in Daniel 2, the kingdom of God is represented by a mountain, that fills
the whole earth. Since Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the Great
King," [Matthew 5:35] Daniel's prophecy also implies that this spiritual
Jerusalem will become a city with a vast population. Daniel described the
stone becoming a mountain here:
Daniel 2:35,
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken
to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer
threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found
for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and
filled the whole earth.
Christ is represented by the stone cut without hands. The interpretation
is given here:
Daniel 44-45
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,
which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to
other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these
kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain
without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay,
the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what
shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the
interpretation thereof sure.
The growth of the stone to become a mountain that fills the earth
describes the church which Christ is building in the present age, and its
influence in the world to come.
Zechariah also foretold an expansion of Jerusalem far beyond the
boundaries of the earthly city. It will include a vast multitude, and
"towns without walls."
Zechariah 1:16-17
Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies:
my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall
be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through
prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort
Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
This refers not to the present earthly city, but the church. Zechariah
showed its dimensions cannot be measured in the units of human
measurements.
Zechariah 2:1-4
I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a
measuring line in his hand.
Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure
Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length
thereof.
And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel
went out to meet him,
And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall
be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle
therein.
The saints are elsewhere referred to as "sheep," who have Christ as their
shepherd, which may explain the reference to cattle.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem's walls and gates
Let's look at some prophecies about the walls and gates of the Jerusalem
that God is building, and compare them with the walls and gates of the
earthly city. This may help us to understand the nature of the city
described in prophecy, which is not the earthly city.
The earthly city of Jerusalem features a prominent wall, built during the
last decade, called in Arabic "jidar al-fasl al-'unsuri" or "racial
segregation wall." It extends for almost 700 km. Other names are "Israeli
separation barrier" or "West Bank barrier." In the vicinity of Jerusalem,
and other urban areas, it consists of concrete slabs up to 8 m in height
and 3 m in width, with sniper towers. In other places it is a fence with
stacks of barbed wire, trenches, and a road patrolled by Israeli
soldiers.
This is nothing like the wall that the prophets described, which protects
the Jerusalem that God is building. Isaiah said:
Isaiah 26:1
In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a
strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.
The wall of the holy city is "salvation."
There is a lot of violence reported from time to time in the earthly
Jerusalem, and its history records many a violent and bloody siege,
during the Crusades. But the heavenly city is promised peace.
Isaiah 60:18
Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction
within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy
gates Praise.
The wall of the city, Zechariah said, is God himself, who is described as
a "wall of fire."
Zechariah 2:5
For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and
will be the glory in the midst of her.
The wall of the heavenly city is described, and its dimensions given in
Revelation:
Revelation 21:17-20
And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits,
according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure
gold, like unto clear glass.
And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all
manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second,
sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the
eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the
eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
Precious stones are associated with the works of Christians, that endure
trials, in Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 3:11-13
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus
Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones,
wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it,
because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
work of what sort it is.
The earthly city has ancient walls of stone, some dating from the Roman,
others from the Byzantine period. The names of the gates in those walls
are: Valley Gate, Dung Gate, Horse Gate, Fish Gate, Old Gate, Water Gate,
East Gate, Fountain Gate, Inspection Gate, Jaffa Gate, Damascus Gate,
Lion's Gate or St. Stephen's Gate, Golden Gate, Zion Gate, Herod's Gate,
etc. The book of Nehemiah mentions some of these names from previous
centuries.
These names contrast with the names of the gates of the holy city in
Ezekiel's prophecy. They are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
This plainly teaches that those who are included in the holy city of the
saved have entered it by being included in the Israel of God, and so have
the promise of salvation. Ezekiel wrote:
Ezekiel 48:31-34
And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of
Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one
gate of Levi.
And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and
one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three
gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates;
one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
The account of the heavenly Jerusalem in Revelation agrees with Ezekiel's
prophecy.
Revelation 21:12, 21
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates
twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the
twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
...
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one
pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent
glass.
The significance of pearls is explained in the parable of Jesus, about
the man seeking goodly pearls. When he discovered one pearl of great
price, he sold all he had to purchase it.
Matthew 13:45-46
Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly
pearls:
Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that
he had, and bought it.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Sometimes news reporters refer to the earthly Jerusalem as the holy city,
but they misunderstand. It is the city of the saints that is to be
"holy." This holy city of the saints is called "the perfection of beauty"
by the Psalmist.
Psalm 50:2
Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
Isaiah called its people "redeemed," and "converts."
Isaiah 1:27
Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isaiah refers to those who dwell in this spiritual Jerusalem as having
their names written "among the living in Jerusalem," elsewhere called
"the book of life."
Isaiah 4:3
And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that
remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is
written among the living in Jerusalem.
God dwells in their midst.
Isaiah 12:6
Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of
Israel in the midst of thee.
This city is not an earthly city; it is founded by God, not man.
Isaiah 14:32
What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD
hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.
The city of the saints will be filled with judgment.
Isaiah 33:5
The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with
judgment and righteousness.
Isaiah spoke of the "beautiful garments" given to the saints.
Isaiah 52:1-3
Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments,
O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into
thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.
Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose
thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall
be redeemed without money.
These garments are interpreted by John in Revelation 19 as "the
righteousness of saints."
Revelation 19:7-8
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of
the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean
and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
There will be unity, and harmony among God's saints.
Isaiah 52:8
Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they
sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.
Isaiah said God will give his people "beauty for ashes."
Isaiah 61:1-4
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me
to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the
brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of
our God; to comfort all that mourn;
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for
ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit
of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the
planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former
desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of
many generations.
The city of the saints will be holy, the prophet Joel said.
Joel 3:16-18
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem;
and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope
of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy
mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass
through her any more.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down
new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah
shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth out of the house
of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
God's voice is heard from his holy city.
Amos 1:2
And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from
Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top
of Carmel shall wither.
Jerusalem, the city of the saints, will be known as a city of truth.
Zechariah 8:3
Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst
of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the
mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>
>Jerusalem is to sprawl over the earth
>
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Jerusalem's walls and gates
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Sometimes news reporters refer to the earthly Jerusalem as the holy city,
>but they misunderstand.
Some more hallucinations by Doug, the cult trying to create a
following.
Bear
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The desolation of Jerusalem
The prophecies discussed below show that Jerusalem, the city that is
built by God, was to become desolate.
Many resist the idea that the church could become desolate. But it is
clearly taught, and it follows from New Testament scriptures that
identify the Jerusalem of prophecy with the church.
The divided and scattered state of the church is obviously a desolation.
The saints are scattered among tens of thousands of sects, and
denominations.
The earthly Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar, and
its temple was destroyed. After the return form exile, the second temple
was made desolate, and polluted by idolatrous sacrifices, during the
reign of Antiochus IV, the Seleucid king of Syria, in the second century
BC. And both the city and temple were destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
But the subject of many prophecies was another desolation, that of the
heavenly Jerusalem and the church, which is the temple of God during the
present age.
It is often supposed that the prophecies about the desolation of
Jerusalem must refer to the earthly city. For example preterists make
that assumption, saying those prophecies were all fulfilled in the first
century. But the earthly city was one of the shadows and types, that were
intended for examples, and types, and lessons for the benefit of the
church.
David prayed that God would lift up his feet unto "the perpetual
desolations."
Psalm 74:1-3
God, why hast thou cast us off for ever? why doth thine anger smoke
against the sheep of thy pasture?
Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of
thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein
thou hast dwelt. Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even
all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary.
Evidently the desolations were to endure for a lengthy period. Isaiah
also shows this. The prophecies he was given were to be understood when
there was "a great forsaking in the midst of the land."
Isaiah 6:8-13
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who
will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand
not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut
their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and
understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted
without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly
desolate,
And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in
the midst of the land.
But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten:
as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast
their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.
In one of the Psalms, David said Zion is "the joy of the whole earth."
But many see the church in a very different way; they treat it as an
object of scorn and derision. But this too was foretold:
Lamentations 2:15
All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head
at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The
perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?
Jeremiah, the author of Lamentations, said he wept over the destruction
of his nation.
Lamentations 3:48-49
Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.
Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the
daughter of my people.
Ezekiel wrote that those who sigh and cry about the abominations in
Jerusalem will be marked, and spared.
Ezekiel 9:3-6
And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon
he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed
with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the
midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that
sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst
thereof.
And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the
city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women:
but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my
sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the
house.
The prophecy of Daniel 7 describes the saints as dominated by a little
horn, which makes war against them. The Reformers identified this little
horn with the papacy. The horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man," and "a
mouth speaking great things." The "eyes like the eyes of a man" suggest
that it represents a human viewpoint. This little horn has dominated the
church, throughout its history.
Daniel spoke of "overspreading abominations" in his prophecy of the 70
weeks, for which judgment is reserved, ready to be poured out.
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even
until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
The king of the north in Daniel's prophecy sets his tabernacle in the
"glorious holy mountain," which represents the kingdom of God and the
church.
Daniel 11:45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the
glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help
him.
Zechariah said that in the day of the Lord, all nations will come against
Jerusalem. This is not referring to the earthly city, but the saints who
are scattered in all nations.
Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the
midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women
ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he
fought in the day of battle.
Jesus wondered whether he would find faith on the earth, when he came.
Luke 18:7-8
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him,
though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son
of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Jesus said Jerusalem would be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the
times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. There was a limited time in which
they would dominate the church. The "the times of the Gentiles" refers to
the "time, times and a half" of Daniel 7:25, when the little horn
dominates the saints.
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away
captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
According to John in Revelation 20, deceived people from every part of
the earth come against the camp of the saints, the Jerusalem which is
above; they misinterpret the prophets, and the apostles, and the message
of the gospel.
Revelation 20:8-9
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of
the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number
of whom is as the sand of the sea.
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of
the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out
of heaven, and devoured them.
Finally, Jesus said, "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after
righteousness: for they shall be filled." [Matthew 5:6]
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>
>The desolation of Jerusalem
>
>
The used car salesman of religion is still trying to pedal his bogus
doctrine, one that he cannot prove because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God.
Bear
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Judgment of the enemies of Jerusalem
The judgment of God comes upon the enemies of Zion and Jerusalem. These
enemies are spiritual, and the judgments are spiritual in nature too. The
Psalmist said:
Psalm 129:5
Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion.
The name "Zion" or "Sion" is one of the names applied to the church, in
the New Testament. Hebrews 12:22 says, "Ye are come to mount Sion." Zion
represents the saints to whom the promises are given.
Isaiah said, the hypocrites who are among the saints will be afraid.
Isaiah 33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the
hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among
us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
The "devouring fire" represents God's word, which is also represented by
a "sword." Isaiah refers to God's sword as "bathed in heaven."
Isaiah 34:2-5
For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon
all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them
to the slaughter.
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of
their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be
rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the
leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon
Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isaiah's prophecy shows how effective the scriptures are against
spiritual enemies, which are represented by armies; armies of angels in
Revelation 12:7. The armies delivered to slaughter in Isaiah's prophecy
are the false doctrines, and flawed interpretations. "Mountains melted
with their blood" is a metaphor, as the mountains are symbolic of the
promises, prophecies of scripture, that apply to the spiritual war and
its results. It is not mean literally. Angels do not shed literal blood,
but the theories and doctrines that they represent can be discredited.
How can literal blood melt literal mountains? The "sword bathed in
heaven" is not a literal sword, but the words of scripture inspired by
God. In Revelation 19:21, the scriptures are described as a "sword" that
comes out of Christ's mouth. The warfare is spiritual warfare within the
church. Alluding to this, Paul said, "For we wrestle not against flesh
and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers
of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
places." [Ephesians 6:12]
In Isaiah's prophecy, the heavens being rolled together as a scroll seems
to refer to the demise of the old cosmology, in which the heavens
revolved around the earth. The revolutions of the heavens ceased, at the
time of the scientific revolution. The flawed interpretations of
scripture are to be discredited like those old ideas about cosmology, and
the rigid heaven, and the imaginary planetary spheres.
Many of Zechariah's prophecies describe this spiritual warfare.
Dispensationalists suppose these prophecies apply to ethnic Jews, but
their doctrine is flawed. For example, in Zechariah 2, Zion is described
as dwelling with "the daughter of Babylon." If Zion means a literal hill
or mountain in Jerusalem, how could such a literal mountain dwell in
Babylon? Obviously, "Zion" is symbolic; and Hebrews 12:22 identifies this
name with the church, the holy city of the saints, the city which God is
building, and which Zechariah called "the apple of his eye."
Zechariah 2:7-9
Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto
the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the
apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they
shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of
hosts hath sent me.
Zechariah said that horses will be "cut off" from Jerusalem. Here, the
"horse" is a figure; it represents people who lack understanding, [Psalm
32:7] or a carnally minded person. [Jeremiah 5:8]
Zechariah 9:10
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from
Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace
unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and
from the river even to the ends of the earth.
Jerusalem is to be "a burdensome stone for all people." The stone can
only be the one described in the prophecy of Daniel 2, that was cut out
of a mountain without hands, and became a mountain that filled the earth.
It represents the kingdom of God.
Zechariah 12:2-5
Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people
round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and
against Jerusalem. And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome
stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in
pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against
it. In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with
astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon
the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with
blindness. And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The
inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their
God.
The opposition to God's kingdom is to be put down; the "house of David"
is the church, as David represents Christ.
Zechariah 12:9-10
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all
the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house
of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and
of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and
they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be
in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
A ghastly plague falls on the enemies of the saints, who fight at
Jerusalem. It affects their eyes, their tongue, and their flesh. This
plague is a spiritual one; their flesh consuming away while they stand of
their feet pictures an awful destruction, not of literal flesh, but their
flawed doctrines. Their eyes consuming away in their holes probably
represents their inability to understand spiritual things. Similarly the
tongue represents their words or speech; their tongue consuming away in
their mouth suggest they are unable to provide a reasonable defence for
their doctrines; they mumble or write nonsense. It also affects horses,
mules, camels, and asses; horses are symbolic of people with no
understanding, and similarly the other animals are symbolic. Camels, for
example, may represent rich men, who Jesus referred to in Matthew 19:24.
Zechariah 14:12-13, 15
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people
that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while
they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their
holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall
come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be
among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his
neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his
neighbour. ... And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of
the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these
tents, as this plague.
Zechariah mentions another judgment, that falls upon the enemies of the
saints. They are deprived of rain, which is symbolic of the holy Spirit.
Zechariah 14:17
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the
earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon
them shall be no rain.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
God will dwell in Jerusalem
Several prophecies say that God will dwell in Jerusalem, and Zion, which
are names applied to the church in the New Testament. [Hebrews 12:22]
Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the great King," alluding to Psalm
48:2, where Zion is referred to in those words.
Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on
the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
God's "tabernacle" or dwelling place is in Zion; the church is God's
temple.
Psalm 76:2
In Salem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.
God chose, and dwells in Zion.
Psalm 132:13
For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
God is "in the midst" of those who are in Zion.
Isaiah 12:6
Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of
Israel in the midst of thee.
The Psalmist encourages the saints to praise God, who "dwelleth at
Jerusalem," that is, the church.
Psalm 135:21
Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye
the LORD.
God promises to return to his church with mercies:
Zechariah 1:16-17
Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies:
my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall
be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.
Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through
prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort
Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
Jerusalem will be called "a city of truth."
Zechariah 8:3
Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst
of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the
mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Jesus brings salvation to those who believe in him, called "daughter of
Jerusalem."
Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation;
lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
In Revelation 21, in his description of the New Jerusalem, John says "the
Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." The city represents
those who are in Christ.
Revelation 21:22-24
And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are
the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the
moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb
is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk
in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and
honour into it.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem is a place of safety
The holy city Jerusalem, that is built by God, is a place of safety,
unlike the earthly city, which is continually threatened with violence.
Jesus advised, "lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven."
Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth
corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Several scriptures associate Zion and Jerusalem with salvation, and with
safety, and a secure reward. This refers to the security of those who are
in Christ.
Psalm 69:35
For God will save Zion, and will build the cities of Judah: that they may
dwell there, and have it in possession.
Psalm 87:2
The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
Psalm 99:2
The LORD is great in Zion; and he is high above all the people.
Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation
a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he
that believeth shall not make haste.
Isaiah said those who dwell in Zion will "weep no more."
Isaiah 30:18-19
And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and
therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the
LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.
For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more:
he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall
hear it, he will answer thee.
Isaiah said Jerusalem would be a "a tabernacle that shall not be taken
down." Obviously, this would not apply to the earthly city, which
suffered destruction in 70 AD. But it is true of the heavenly Jerusalem.
Isaiah 33:20-21
Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see
Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down;
not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of
the cords thereof be broken. But there the glorious LORD will be unto us
a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with
oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
The city of the saints is not threatened by warships, as many cities were
on the ancient world.
Salvation is associated with Zion.
Isaiah 46:13
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation
shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Salvation, and rewards are secure for the saints, in heaven.
Isaiah 62:11
Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the
daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is
with him, and his work before him.
Jeremiah said Jerusalem would be given a name that meant "The LORD our
righteousness." This applies to the saints, and the church.
Jeremiah 33:16
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and
this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our
righteousness.
True safety is in the holy city.
Zechariah 14:11
And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction;
but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Judgment of the enemies of Jerusalem
>
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>God will dwell in Jerusalem
>
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Jerusalem is a place of safety
It seems to me that there are a number of folks in this group that
apply a cafeteria-style approach to scripture, that being, "I like and
agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is legitimate
scripture". However, this verse, I do not like, nor do I agree with
it, therefore, "It is ok if I change it to say what I want it to say,
I completely ignore it, or, it was not intended to be included in the
Bible".
As an example of what I am getting at.
Doug agrees with Ephesians 2:4,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which
He loved us,"
Therefore, he believes that it is a legitimate verse, just as it is
written.
OTOH, he does not like verses such as;
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who
practice lawlessness,
Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will
be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,
'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for
the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but
the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to
hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-
Mark 9:44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not
quenched.'
According to Doug, these verses are to be ignored, they should not
have been in the Bible or, it is up to him to determine if they are
valid or not, as he demonstrates in his quote.
"Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
unending torment!
WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
GOD. (emphasis are mine)
The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and
suspicion upon scripture. One may ask, "if this verse and that verse
are wrong, why should I believe any of it", doubt is established.
Satan applied this exact same tactic with Eve in Genesis 3:1
"Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which
the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said,
'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
There he is placing that seed of doubt into Eve, then he follows up
with the authoritative assertions in Genesis 3:4,5
"Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened,
and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
There he is clearly contradicting God's word, just as Doug does in the
example above.
No, unfortunately, Doug is not the only one in this group that is
guilty of this blasphemy; however, it is my belief that he is one of
the most dangerous and adept at doing it.
So, if you wish to pick and choose which verses are authentic and
which ones are not, if you wish to change scripture to fit your style
of religion, if you wish to discard all verses that you do not agree
with, then by all means, go for it.
Unfortunately, what we believe and what we accept, will not change
what God said that He will do, how He will do it, when He will do it,
and, He will not be asking us for our opinion whether He is being fair
or not before He does it.
Here are a few verses that I believe we all should keep in mind when
reading the comments of others.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is
profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction
in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly
equipped for every good work.
Romans 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for
our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the
Scriptures might have hope.
Does anyone see anywhere in these verses that we are instructed to
seek the interpretation of what God wants us to know by asking Doug,
or anyone else? God's word, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit is
all anyone needs to know God.
1 John 4:1 has a warning that we all should store in memory",
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether
they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the
world."
How are we going to "test the spirits" if we cannot depend on the
Bible being the inspired word of God?
The Holy Spirit can teach us in many ways, including the writings of
others, but only if those writings can be verified with how scripture
reads, not how someone changes them to read.
Flee with the greatest of speed from those who refuse to answer your
questions.
Bear
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem comforted
There are many prophecies that show that Jerusalem will be comforted.
Jesus promised to send a "Comforter" to his disciples.
John 14:15-18
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he
shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth
him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you,
and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to
you.
The Comforter was and is the Holy Spirit that Christ sent to the church.
Those who have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them are the "Jerusalem" which
the Old Testament prophecies said will be comforted.
Jerusalem is the city where Christ is reigning as king; not the earthly
Jerusalem; it refers to the city of the faithful, the saints of all ages,
who are called out of every nation. This is the city of those who are
saved. David said:
Psalm 9:13-15
Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them
that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:
That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of
Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.
Those who dwell in this city will be delivered from captivity.
Psalm 14:7
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD
bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and
Israel shall be glad.
Their prosperity is assured. The Psalmist said:
Psalm 122:6
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Christians who are captive, ensnared in flawed teachings, will wake up to
the truth, as if from a dream.
Psalm 126
When the LORD turned again the captivity of Zion, we were like them that
dream. Then was our mouth filled with laughter, and our tongue with
singing: then said they among the heathen, The LORD hath done great
things for them. The LORD hath done great things for us; whereof we are
glad. Turn again our captivity, O LORD, as the streams in the south. They
that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth,
bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing,
bringing his sheaves with him.
God promises to fight on behalf of his saints.
Isaiah 31:4
For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young
lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth
against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for
the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for
mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
They will rejoice.
Isaiah 35:10
And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs
and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness,
and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
God will deliver them from captivity.
Isaiah 37:31-32
And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take
root downward, and bear fruit upward: For out of Jerusalem shall go forth
a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD
of hosts shall do this.
Jerusalem is to be comforted, Isaiah said.
Isaiah 40:1-2
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to
Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her
iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for
all her sins.
It is God who comforts his people.
Isaiah 51:3
For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places;
and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden
of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and
the voice of melody.
They will come to Zion with singing, Isaiah said.
Isaiah 51:11
Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing
unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall
obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
The gospel is good news for Jerusalem, the city of the redeemed. Isaiah
said,
Isaiah 52:7-9
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good
tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that
publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they
sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again
Zion. Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem:
for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
The mountains Isaiah referred to, I think, are metaphorical, and
represent promises of God to his saints. The "waste places" are the
obscure scriptures which they have misunderstood and misinterpreted.
God's salvation goes forth from Jerusalem, Isaiah said.
Isaiah 62:1
For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will
not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the
salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.
Isaiah said Jerusalem, the holy city of the saints, will become a praise
and a blessing in the earth. This is another prophecy refers to the
church, not the earthly city.
Isaiah 62:5-8
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and
as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over
thee. I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never
hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep
not silence,
And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a
praise in the earth. I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem,
which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of
the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and
till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
The saints are comforted in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 66:13
As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be
comforted in Jerusalem.
The prophet Jeremiah said that God will deliver his people, and pardon
their iniquities. [Jeremiah 33:7-8] Jerusalem, which was desolate, will
be populated.
Jeremiah 33:9-11
And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all
the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto
them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all
the prosperity that I procure unto it. Thus saith the LORD; Again there
shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man
and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of
Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and
without beast, The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of
the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall
say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy
endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise
into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of
the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
The house of David is to be multiplied, and become as as the sand of the
sea, which cannot be measured.
Jeremiah 33:20-22
Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my
covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in
their season; Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant,
that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the
Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be
numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the
seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
In Daniel's prayer of confession, he asked God to forgive his people, and
restore Jerusalem.
Daniel 9:16-20
O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine
anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy
mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers,
Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his
supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is
desolate, for the Lord's sake. O my God, incline thine ear, and hear;
open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called
by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our
righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. O Lord, hear; O Lord,
forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God:
for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.
Zechariah said God will have mercy on Jerusalem.
Zechariah 1:16-17
Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies:
my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall
be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD
of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and
the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.
It will be called a city of truth.
Zechariah 8:3
Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst
of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the
mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
In Revelation, John described Jerusalem descending from heaven to the
earth. It is "the tabernacle of God."
Revelation 21:2-4
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of
heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great
voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God
himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all
tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,
nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things
are passed away.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Jerusalem comforted
>
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
Doug
article <qd0ch6d4osjdmsalp...@4ax.com>:
Bear complaining about preterists:
"Their ire usually is shown in a ridiculing attack that mocks, insults,
and demeans those that disagree. Rather than to intellectually defend
their position, their preferred method is to "intimidate or anger" anyone
that dares to challenges their doctrine."
--
Doug
Doug
article <ih0ch61hf2a6q7jsg...@4ax.com>:
Bear complaining about preterists:
bear
>On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 08:38:20 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <qd0ch6d4osjdmsalp...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 06:12:26 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>>>in article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>Jerusalem is to sprawl over the earth
>>>
>> Some more hallucinations by Doug, the cult trying to create a following.
>>
>> Bear
>
>Bear complaining about preterists:
>
Bear complaining about preterists:
Not in this post, I am complaining about Doug's cult, misleading and
dishonesty, just as the following proves, which Doug has no rebuttal
for.
BTW Doug, if I am wrong with this, why is it that you do not challenge
me to prove what I say? Of course, then I would expect you to prove
what you say and you know that you cannot do so, that is why you will
not make that challenge.
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The nations will seek God at Jerusalem
Jesus said to his disciples: "Ye are the light of the world. A city that
is set on an hill cannot be hid." [Matthew 5:14]
Why did he mention a city? Because those who are in Christ are the light
of the world, and the holy city which "cannot be hid."
Isaiah said of this city, the kingdom of Christ, "nations will flow unto
it."
Isaiah 2:1-3
The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the
LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall
be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many
people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the
LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law,
and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
People will seek God, at Jerusalem, which represents the Christian
church. Zechariah said the same:
Zechariah 8:22-23
Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts
in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts;
In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of
all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him
that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is
with you.
Here, those who dwell in Jerusalem are Jews, and Judah, as Jesus said,
"salvation is of the Jews." [John 4:22] But he denied that either the
earthly Jerusalem was the place where men should worship God, or Mount
Gerizim, where the Samaritans had their temple. He said, those who
worship God "must worship him in spirit and in truth."
John 4:19-24
The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our
fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the
place where men ought to worship.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall
neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye
worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of
the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers
shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh
such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jesys said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto
the Father, but by me." [John 14:6]
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>Jesus said to his disciples:
Not in this post, I am complaining about Doug's cult, misleading and
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Various prophecies about Jerusalem have been considered under the
following subject headings: (1) Jerusalem is built by God; (2) Jerusalem
was to be raised up; (3) Jerusalem would sprawl over the earth; (4)
Jerusalem's walls and gates; (5) Jerusalem is a holy city; (6) Jerusalem
would be made desolate; (7) judgment of Jerusalem's enemies; (8) God will
dwell in Jerusalem; (9) Jerusalem is a place of safety; (10) Jerusalem
will be comforted; (11) the nations will seek God at Jerusalem.
Under each topic I suggested that the heavenly Jerusalem was meant,
rather than the earthly city. Many of those prophecies make no sense,
when applied to the earthly city.
Below are some prophecies that indicate that Jerusalem will be
established forever.
In the promises made to David, that were announced by the prophet Nathan,
Israel was to be planted, and moved no more.
1 Chronicles 17:9
Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and
they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither
shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
If "my people Israel" meant the Israelite nation, and ethnic Jews, and
the earthly city of Jerusalem, this prophecy obviously failed. A few
centuries after David, the 10 tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel
were removed from their land by the Assyrians, and later, the tribe of
Judah and Benjamin were also removed from their land, and from Jerusalem,
by the Babylonians. The city of Jerusalem was destroyed. The dynasty and
the line of David seemed to disappear.
But God had promised David that his kingdom would be established forever.
1 Chronicles 17:10-15
... Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house. And
it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be
with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall
be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build me an
house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my
mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee: But I
will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne
shall be established for evermore. According to all these words, and
according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
In fact, the above prophecy applies to Christ and his kingdom. Jesus
inherited the throne of David. This was mentioned by the angel who
announced his birth to his mother Mary: "He shall be great, and shall be
called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the
throne of his father David." [Luke 1:32]
David's throne was to be established for all generations. But this
applies to the heavenly city, not the earthly one.
Psalm 89:2-4
For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt
thou establish in the very heavens. I have made a covenant with my
chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for
ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.
Isaiah spoke of Zion as "a tabernacle that shall not be taken down."
Isaiah 33:20-21
Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see
Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down;
not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of
the cords thereof be broken. But there the glorious LORD will be unto us
a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with
oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
Daniel also wrote of the kingdom of Christ. It would stand forever.
Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom,
which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to
other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these
kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
The kingdom of Christ, the church, will endure forever, and will not pass
away.
Daniel 7:13-14
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came
with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they
brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all
people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an
everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that
which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel said that dominion over the earth will be given to the saints.
Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the
kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
We have seen in previous posts, that prophecy shows that Jerusalem is
built by God; it would be raised up; it would sprawl over the earth;
Its walls represent salvation, and the gates are named after the tribes
of Israel; it is a holy city, but it would be made desolate; its enemies
will be judged, God will dwell there; Jerusalem is a place of safety;
Jerusalem will be comforted; the nations will seek God at Jerusalem,
which will be established forever.
Now, Jesus shows us that Jerusalem refers to the heavenly city, when he
said that no prophet can perish out of Jerusalem.
Jesus said, "Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day
following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of
Jerusalem." [Luke 13:33]
Wouldn't Jesus have known that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died elsewhere?
And many other prophets too? Jacob died in Egypt:
Acts 7:15-16
So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers,
And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham
bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem.
And Jesus himself also was crucified outside the earthly city of
Jerusalem. This is what is meant by "without the gate."
Hebrews 13:12
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own
blood, suffered without the gate.
Obviously, the Jerusalem Jesus referred to was not the earthly city. The
city he meant was the heavenly one. The prophets were all in the heavenly
Jerusalem when they died. See Hebrews 12:22. And it applies to the saints
of all ages too. None of them perished out of that heavenly Jerusalem.
Thus, Jesus said, "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem."
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>We have seen in previous posts, that
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
bogus religion that he can become another Jim Jones or the like.
Bear
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
According to Bible prophecy, rivers of living water will flow from
Jerusalem. David said,
Psalm 46:4
There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God,
the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
The river is for the benefit of the church, the temple of God. It is a
spiritual river, not a natural one. Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 30:25
And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill,
rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the
towers fall.
Natural rivers flow in the bottom of valleys, but prophetic rivers are
located on high mountains. These are not natural rivers, but metaphorical
ones. The mountains are metaphorical too; they represent the prophecies
and revelations of God in scripture, and promises intended for the saints.
Isaiah 33:20-21
Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see
Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down;
not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of
the cords thereof be broken. But there the glorious LORD will be unto us
a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with
oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
Jerusalem is represented by a tabernacle, supported with cords and
stakes, in this prophecy by Isaiah. It is identified with the tabernacle
in the wilderness, but it does not need to be removed again.
Likewise the broad rivers and streams in Isaiah's prophecy are metaphors.
Such broad rivers could not exist in the vicinity of Jerusalem, with its
present topography.
Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the
valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land
springs of water.
Again, the prophecy is not referring to natural or literal rivers. They
are metaphors. Jesus said:
John 7:38
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly
shall flow rivers of living water.
John explained this saying of Jesus, in the next verse, as referring to
the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives us understanding so we can
properly interpret God's word. The "living water" enables us to
understand prophecies that were inspired by the Spirit of Christ, to
ultimately lead us to inherit eternal life. The word of God is the
scriptures. Paul said Christ is sanctifying and cleansing his Church
"with the washing of water by the word." [Ephesians 5:26]
The prophet Joel wrote of mountains that drop wine, and hills that flow
with milk. These are metaphors; the apostle Peter said "As newborn babes,
desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby." [1 Peter
2:2] A fountain flows from the house of the Lord, and waters the valley
of Shittim, that was located on the east side of the Dead Sea.
Joel 3:16-18
The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem;
and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope
of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. So shall ye
know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then
shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her
any more. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall
drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the
rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth
out of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
How could a literal river flow to the far side of the Jordan Valley? In
the valley of Shittim, the Israelites committed whoredom with the
daughters of Moab. [Numbers 25:1] The prophecy likely alludes to
spiritual whoredom in the church.
Zechariah wrote: "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall
go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of
them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it
be." [Zechariah 14:8]
The "Jerusalem" that Zechariah's prophecy refers to is the Church, the
holy city. The prophecy says that living waters will flow towards the
wilderness that lies east of Jerusalem, as well as towards the west; the
wilderness or desert is symbolic.
In Revelation 12:14 the serpent casts a flood from his mouth, intending
to carry away the woman, who represents the church; but the earth opens
its mouth and swallows up the flood.
This prophecy pictures a flood of misinformation, including flawed
interpretations of prophecy, such as theories of preterism and
dispensationalism. The earth or land which swallows up the flood alludes
to the wilderness, which is the place that was prepared for the woman.
The land which swallows up the flood is symbolic, and represents the
truth, and spiritual, invisible things promised to the church. Only the
truth could swallow up the serpent's flood.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>According to Bible prophecy,
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The restoration of Jerusalem
There are two verses in the Psalms, which are almost identical, that say
that the salvation of Israel will come out of Zion, and when God turns
back the captivity of his people, Israel will be glad, and rejoice:
Psalm 14:7
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD
bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and
Israel shall be glad.
Psalm 53:6
Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth
back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall
be glad.
In another scripture, the Psalmist says that Zion's delivery from
captivity will be like a dream, which suggests that it is connected with
understanding prophecy. Prophecies often involve dreams, and visions.
Psalm 126:1
When the LORD turned again the captivity of Zion, we were like them that
dream.
Ending the captivity of Zion will no doubt involve delivery from
delusions. The truth sets us free, Jesus said. [John 8:32] When the Jews
said they were never in bondage to any man, Jesus said, "Whosoever
committeth sin is the servant of sin."
The prophet Joel said "it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour
out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall
prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see
visions." [Joel 2:28]
Joel wrote that Judah and Jerusalem will be delivered from their
captivity; God will plead with all nations, for his people.
Joel 3:1-3
For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again
the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and
will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with
them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have
scattered among the nations, and parted my land. And they have cast lots
for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for
wine, that they might drink.
The phrase "bring again the captivity" in the first verse of the chapter
means "restore," or deliver from captivity. The New International Version
says "when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem..."
A prophecy of Zephaniah about Zion and Jerusalem says that God will "undo
all that afflict thee." God will get his saints "praise and fame" in all
the lands where they were put to shame, and they will become a praise
among all the people of the earth.
Zephaniah 3:16-20
In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion,
Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is
mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in
his love, he will joy over thee with singing. I will gather them that are
sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach
of it was a burden. Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict
thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven
out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have
been put to shame. At that time will I bring you again, even in the time
that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all
people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes,
saith the LORD.
Zechariah also wrote of the day of the Lord, a time when Christ will
fight against those who have taken his people captive; the prophecy does
not apply to the earthly city, but to the captivity of the church, and
the saints who are scattered among tens of thousands of denominations.
Zechariah 14:1-3
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the
midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women
ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the
residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the
LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the
day of battle.
Zechariah prophesied that Christ would stand upon the Mount of Olives,
which occurred during his ministry, as recorded in the gospels.
The Mount of Olives cleaves in the midst, and the two halves of the
mountain are displaced in opposite directions. One half moves north, and
the other half moves south. I suggest that these displaced sections of
the mountain represent two opposite, flawed interpretations of the Olivet
Discourse of Jesus, preterism and dispensationalism.
Zechariah 14:4-5
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is
before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the
midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a
very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the
north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley
of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal:
yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the
days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the
saints with thee.
The theories of preterism and dispensationalism displace the Olivet
Discourse of Jesus from its proper application; the prophecy is said to
have no application to the church in the present age, in each of those
interpretations. And both theories apply the prophecy to ethnic Jews,
rather than the church.
Similarly, those flawed theories deny that a great number of other
prophecies and promises of God apply to the church. I suggest, that those
who promote such interpretations are among the armies who invade
Jerusalem, as described in Zechariah's prophecy, where Jerusalem is the
heavenly city, and represents the church. They are among the nations
Christ fights against, "as in the day of battle."
Zechariah says flee to the valley formed between the two displaced parts
of the Mount of Olives. This suggests we should apply the Olivet
Discourse to the church, in the present age, rather than to Jews of the
first century, or to Jews in a future seven year tribulation.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>The restoration of Jerusalem
>
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
bogus religion that he can become another Jim Jones or the like. Yes,
he quotes verses, so did Satan.
Bear
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem robbed and spoiled
Isaiah wrote of Jerusalem as a glorious city, that had been robbed and
spoiled. He said, "I will weep bitterly, labour not to comfort me,
because of the spoiling of the daughter of my people. For it is a day of
trouble, and of treading down, and of perplexity by the Lord GOD of hosts
in the valley of vision, breaking down the walls, and of crying to the
mountains." [Isaiah 22:4-5]
The spoiling of the earthly Jerusalem, described by the prophets, was a
metaphor that we can apply to the Jerusalem that God is building, which
is the church. The promises of God to the saints and to the church are
great and precious, but thieves and robbers have deprived Christians of
their promises, and their spiritual heritage. The saints are scattered
among tens of thousands of denominations and sects.
Jesus described those who mislead his people as thieves and robbers, and
as wolves among sheep. He said to his disciples: "Behold, I send you
forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents,
and harmless as doves." [Matthew 10:16]
And in the 10th chapter of John, Jesus spoke of shepherds who are
hirelings, who abandon the sheep when wolves threaten.
John 10:7-12
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the
door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers:
but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter
in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The
thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am
come that they might have life, and that they might have it more
abundantly. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for
the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own
the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and
fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
In the prophecy of Ezekiel 28-39, the armies of Gog and Magog come
against "the land of unwalled villages." This applies to the church, and
a similar phrase refers to Jerusalem in the prophecy of Zechariah. The
Jerusalem of prophecy is the church, the heavenly Jerusalem. Zechariah
said, "Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls..." [Zechariah
2:4]
The prophecy of Ezekiel 38 was applied to the church by the apostle John
in Revelation 20:8-9.
The armies of Gog and Magog are armed with swords, and bows and arrows,
and shields and bucklers. In scripture, a sword represents speech, or the
tongue, and arrows are "bitter words."
Psalm 64:3
Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their
arrows, even bitter words.
The armies of Gog and Magog all ride upon horses, and horses are symbolic
of people with no understanding:
Psalm 32:9
Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding:
whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto
thee.
The hordes of Gog and Magog come against the church; they assault the
"mountains of Israel," symbolic of the revelations of God, and the
prophecies and promises to the saints. They misinterpret the prophecies.
[Ezekiel 38:8] Ezekiel said they come against the "prophets of
Israel." [Ezekiel 38:17] Paul said, the prophets and apostles are the
foundation of the church. [Ephesians 2:20]
The armies of Gog and Magog are symbolic of the false teachers. Numerous
heresies invaded the church in the early centuries.
False teachers began to become dominant in the church after the apostles
had died, and even while the apostle John remained alive, as he wrote of
them. They seek to take a prey, and "a great spoil."
Ezekiel 38:11-13
And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will
go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling
without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate
places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out
of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the
midst of the land.
Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions
thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou
gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to
take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
Their flawed teachings deprive the church of its promises.
Ezekiel 39:8-10
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day
whereof I have spoken. And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall
go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields
and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the
spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any
out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they
shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them,
saith the Lord GOD.
The seven years in which the weapons of these invaders are burned are
"seven times." This corresponds to the symbolic "week" in which Christ
confirms his covenant with many, in Daniel 9:24-27. The last half-week
corresponds to the entire age of the church, when the gospel is preached.
Burning their weapons with fire pictures the saints opposing and
overcoming false teachings, and flawed interpretations, that oppose the
gospel of Christ, throughout the history of the church.
Similarly in Zechariah, the armies that come against Jerusalem represent
the many false teachers, who come against the saints, deceiving them.
Christ called them thieves and robbers.
Zechariah 14:2
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city
shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half
of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people
shall not be cut off from the city.
Both this prophecy and Ezekiel's prophecy are interpreted by John as
deceived people of all nations who come against "the camp of the saints"
and the "beloved city," which is the church.
Revelation 20:7-9
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his
prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four
quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle:
the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the
breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the
beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured
them.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem the mother of us all
In prophecy, Jerusalem is called a mother, and the saints are her
children. Isaiah said, "As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I
comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem." [Isaiah 66:13]
David said, "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her
cunning." [Psalm 137:5]
Dispensationalists say that in the Old Testament, Jerusalem always refers
to the earthly city; the church age was unknown to the prophets, they say.
According to dispensationalists there is a "gap" or "parenthesis" in
God's plan for the Jews; that is, his plan for ethnic Jews, and the
earthly Jerusalem. They postulate a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks
of Daniel 9:24-27.
Dispensationalist J. Randall Price wrote: "Because dispensationalism
adhered to the principle of literal interpretation and recognizes the
scriptural distinction between God's program for Israel and for the
church, it understands the historical completion of Israel's restoration
must take place in a future week. During this time (as described in v.
27), there is a resumption of the messianic program for Israel with the
overthrow of the Antichrist. ... This interpretation requires a prophetic
postponement (older writers referred to this as a "gap" or "parenthesis")
between the events of verses 26 and 27."
[Dictionary of Premillennial Theology, By Mal Couch, p. 77.]
http://books.google.com/books?id=rPeo38M2d9UC
But in Isaiah's prophecy, Jerusalem is to be raised up, as it was, in the
New Testament. In Galatians it is raised up to heaven, and has become
"the Jerusalem which is above," and "the mother of us all."
Paul, writing to the Galatians, who were Gentiles, and were being
troubled by Jews promoting Jewish customs and traditions, called
Jerusalem "the mother of us all."
Galatians 4:26-28
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Paul identified the earthly Jerusalem with Hagar the Egyptian bond-maid
who was cast out of Abraham's household.
Paul quoted from a prophecy of Isaiah, and applied it to the church.
Galatians 4:27-28
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and
cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children
than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the
children of promise.
This quotes Isaiah 54.
Isaiah 54:1-3
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and
cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the
children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the
LORD.
Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of
thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy
stakes;
For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy
seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be
inhabited.
Isaiah alludes to Jerusalem as a tabernacle, that needed to be enlarged,
and one that will spread abroad, on the right hand and on the left. He
said, "thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles." Such a tabernacle would have
to become very large indeed. And in fact, as Paul showed in Galatians 4,
this prophecy is not about the earthly city, but the church!
It is the church that will bring forth her children in a single day, when
the saints of all ages are raised up from their graves.
Isaiah 66:8
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth
be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for
as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Dispensationalists, who don't consider themselves to be among the Israel
of God, or the Jerusalem which God is building, and so are Gentiles, are
among the nations which come against the holy city, as prophecy says "all
nations" will come against it. [Joel 3:2, Zechariah 14:2, Matthew 24:9]
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Jerusalem robbed and spoiled
>
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like. Yes,
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>Jerusalem the mother of us all
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem is God's tabernacle
David identified Jerusalem as the tabernacle of God. He said, "In Salem
also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion." [Psalm 76:2]
This clearly implies that a continuity, between the tabernacle of God, in
the wilderness, and in the promised land before the temple was built, and
the city of Jerusalem.
In previous posts in this thread I pointed out some scriptures that show
Jerusalem is established, and remains forever, as the "city of the great
King," and as the location a perpetual throne, which Jesus inherited. But
it is raised up, and spread abroad over the earth.
Isaiah identified Jerusalem with the tabernacle in the wilderness, and he
said that God will create "a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a
flaming fire by night" upon every dwelling, and every assembly.
Isaiah 4:2-6
In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and
the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are
escaped of Israel.
And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that
remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is
written among the living in Jerusalem:
When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,
and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by
the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and
upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a
flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.
And there shall be a tabernacle for a shadow in the day time from the
heat, and for a place of refuge, and for a covert from storm and from
rain.
In his commentary, "Isaiah Translated and Explained," Joseph Addison
Alexander wrote the following about verse 5, and the "cloud and smoke by
day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night":
"The church is not only to be purified by God's judgments, but glorified
by his manifested presence, and in that state of glory kept secure by his
protection. The presence of God is here denoted by the ancient symbol of
a fiery cloud, and is promised to the church in its whole extent and to
its several assemblies, as distinguished from the one indivisible
congregation, and its one exclusive place of meeting, under the old
economy. The two appearances described in this verse are those presented
by a fire at different times, a smoke by day and a flame by night Some
regard this as the statement of a general fact, 'over every thing
glorious there is protection,' i. e. men are accustomed to protect what
they value highly; but the great majority of writers understand it as a
prophecy or promise."
Andrew A. Bonar wrote of the pillar of cloud and the flame over the
tabernacle: "When they sat under the shadow of the pillar cloud, and were
sheltered from the burning rays of an eastern sun, God wanted to teach
them that Christ was a shade on their right hand; that He would come
between them and the burning wrath of God. When they followed the light
of the pillar of fire, God wanted to teach them that Christ was the light
of this world; that whoso followeth Him shall not walk in darkness."
When the Holy Spirit came upon the disciples at Pentecost, it was
manifested as "tongues like as of fire," that sat upon each of them.
[Acts 2:3] Is this what Isaiah's prophecy refers to? Does the "cloud and
smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night" represent the
Spirit that dwells in each believer? This would fit the idea that the
church is God's tabernacle in the earth, and so is every believer.
Jesus promised that where "two or three" believers meet together in his
name, he would be present in their midst.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in
the midst of them.
Isaiah described Jerusalem as a tabernacle, which would be enlarged, and
spread out, and "break forth on the right hand and on the left." It would
include the Gentiles. This applies to the church, not the earthly city.
Isaiah 54:1-3
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and
cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the
children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the
LORD.
Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of
thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy
stakes;
For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy
seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be
inhabited.
Paul quoted the above prophecy, in Galatians 4:27-28, and applied it to
the church.
The prophet Hosea spoke of a time to come, when Israel will dwell in
tabernacles or tents.
Hosea 12:9-10
And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt will yet make thee
to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn feast.
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and
used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
Hosea showed that the message of prophecy is given in "similitudes," or
in the language of metaphor, and parable.
In Revelation 12:6, 14 the church is represented by a woman who flees to
the wilderness. This also alludes to the time that the Israelites spent
in the wilderness, before they took possession of the promised land.
In Revelation 20:8-9, people from all parts of the earth, deceived by
Satan, come against the "camp of the saints," and "the beloved city."
This identifies the church with the "camp of the saints," alluding to
Israel in the wilderness, and with "the beloved city" or the holy city of
Jerusalem.
These scriptures show that there is continuity, and a continuous stream
of thought in scripture, linking the tabernacle in the wilderness and the
city of Jerusalem to the church of the New Testament, and the present
age.
The theory of dispensationalism denies this continuity.
Paul said the church has the prophets and apostles as its foundation, and
Jesus is the chief corner stone. [Ephesians 2:20]
Jerusalem, the city of the saints, will become known as "a city of truth."
Zechariah 8:3
Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst
of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the
mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>
>Jerusalem is God's tabernacle
>
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
To be cast out of Jerusalem, as one who is unfit for the kingdom of God,
is a fate that Jesus warned people to avoid at all costs. This rejection
is represented in the gospels by Gehenna, a valley near the southern part
of Jerusalem, outside the wall. Jesus said, "And if thy right eye offend
thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee
that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should
be cast into Gehenna." [Matthew 5:29]
The use of the word "Gehenna" here implies that dwelling in Jerusalem
represents salvation, and safety, and inheriting the kingdom of God;
Gehenna, as the place where trash was burnt, is symbolic of being
rejected from the kingdom, and enduring the judgment.
Joseph Addison Alexander discussed the verse quoted above in his book
"The Gospel According to Matthew" (1864). He wrote:
<quote>
In the verse before us, the antithesis presented is between the loss of
one eye, with salvation or admission into heaven, and the use of two
eyes, with perdition or the everlasting pains of hell. That this is the
original connection or occurrence of this striking passage may be
gathered from the otherwise unimportant circumstance, that the eye, which
stands last in the other cases (Matt. 18,19. Mark 9,47) here stands
first, in obvious and beautiful connection with the previous condemnation
even of an unchaste look as virtual adultery. We thus learn, as it were,
the very genesis or origin of this divine injunction, as developed in the
natural succession of our Saviour's thoughts and words in his organic or
inaugural discourse, and afterwards repeated in an amplified and finished
but essentially unaltered form on different occasions. The right eye
seems to be particularly mentioned as commonly reckoned the most
valuable, either from in natural difference or one produced, in all the
double members of the body, by more constant use. Offend, not in the
ordinary modern sense of displeasing or alienating in affection, but in
the Latin and old English sense of stumbling or being made to stumble.
The nearest root or theme to which it can be traced in classic Greek,
denotes a trap or snare, but in the Hellenistic dialect a stumblingblock
or any hindrance in the path, over which one may fall. In like manner the
derivative verb means to make one fall or stumble, a natural figure both
for sin and error, and often representing both as commonly connected in
experience. 'If thy very eye, and that thy right eye, incurably betrays
thee into sin.' The present tense (...) brings the supposition home with
great force to the hearer's actual experience. Not 'if it should so do
hereafter,' but 'if it is so doing now.' Cast it from thee, with
abhorrence and contempt, not only as a small price to be paid for your
deliverance from sin, but as intrinsically hateful on account of its
supposed abandonment to sin itself. It is profitable (or expedient, as
the Rhemish Bible renders it), i, e. comparatively, as appears from the
remaining clause, but is not expressed in the verb itself, though so
translated in the older English versions (better it is, Tyndale, Cranmer,
Geneva). Perish, or be lost, suggesting the idea of perdition or eternal
misery, though strictly inapplicable to an amputated or exscinded member.
And not, i.e. not expedient, profitable, good for thee, conducive to thy
happiness. Cast, the same word that was previously applied to the eye,
and thus suggesting the immense disparity of loss and gain, the
disproportion between voluntary rejection of a single member and coercive
or compulsory rejection of one's self forever. Hell, an English word
originally meaning the unseen world, or the world of spirits, or the
state of the dead, and thus corresponding to the Greek word hades (see
below, on 11,23. 16, 18), but in later usage limited to the place of
future torment, and employed to represent the Greek gehenna, which has
been explained already. (See above. on v. 22.)
</quote>
--
Doug
bear
>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>>
>
>To be cast out of Jerusalem,
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The prophecies about Jerusalem show it is a city built by God, it was to
be raised up, it will sprawl over the earth, its walls are salvation, and
it gates are named after the 12 tribes of Israel, it is a holy city;
Jerusalem would become desolate, her enemies will be judged. God will
dwell in Jerusalem; it is a place of safety; Jerusalem will be comforted;
nations will seek God at Jerusalem; it will be established forever; no
prophet can perish out of Jerusalem; rivers of living water will flow
from Jerusalem; it will be restored; Jerusalem is robbed and spoiled;
Jerusalem is the mother of us all; Jerusalem is God's tabernacle. Jesus
used Gehenna, a valley south of Jerusalem, to represent the fate of those
unfit for the kingdom of God.
The last item implies that dwelling in Jerusalem represents salvation.
The topic is worth further investigation. Gehenna, where refuse and trash
from the holy city was burned, was the subject of several warnings by
Jesus. It is mentioned 12 times in the New Testament. The warnings imply
that Jerusalem represents those who are saved. Jesus' warnings about
Gehenna apply to those within the church, rather than to outsiders.
Believers are represented as the inhabitants of Jerusalem; thus the
warnings about Gehenna are more especially for them. Gehenna represents
shame, and the fate of those who miss out, who Jesus said will "weep and
gnash their teeth."
Judgment will not be the same for everyone. From those who were given
much, much will be required. Jesus said the people of Sodom, and Nineveh,
will have a more tolerable time in the judgment, than Jews who witnessed
the miracles and signs that he performed, yet did not believe the gospel.
Christians who miss out at the time of the resurrection, who are "left
behind," and are rejected from the kingdom, will likely be in a position
similar to those Jews.
Jesus' warnings to "flee to the mountains" in Matthew 24 refer to seeking
the promises of God that are available to the saints. These mountains are
symbolic of the revelations of God, and promises, and prophecies; they
are not literal mountains. The meaning is, seek the kingdom of God, and
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the
Son of man." [Luke 21:36]
These warnings are intended for those called to follow Christ, who had
the opportunity to be sons in the kingdom of God. In the time of Jesus,
many of the publicans and sinners who heard the gospel preached repented,
while those who were religious did not. Similarly, many of the Gentiles
accepted the gospel, while Jews rejected it. Jesus said, "the children of
this world are in their generation wiser than the children of
light." [Luke 16:8] And, "While ye have light, believe in the light, that
ye may be the children of light." [John 12:36] These sayings of Jesus
apply today too.
Many of the Jews heard Jesus preach, and saw his miracles, did not
respond appropriately. Jesus said:
Matthew 8:11-12
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and
shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of
heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The message was, seek to enter the kingdom of God, while there is
opportunity. But what happens to those who did not believe? Paul said of
the unbelieving Jews, in Romans 11:32, "For God hath concluded them all
in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
The Jews who did not believe are "concluded in unbelief," so that God can
be merciful to them in the judgment. Paul said God will have mercy on
all, which means Gentiles as well as Jews.
Jesus encourages all people to seek the kingdom of God. He said:
Matthew 18:8-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and
cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or
maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire
the age-during. And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out
and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life,
rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.'
The fire associated with Gehenna is not necessarily literal; it is a fire
that purges, and purifies. God will take away all unbelief; the knowledge
of God will fill the earth, Isaiah said. "They shall not hurt nor destroy
in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of
the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." [Isaiah 11:9]
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>The prophecies about Jerusalem show it is a city built by God,
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like. Yes,
he quotes verses, so did Satan. How many do you have so far Doug,
none?
Ike E 7/1/10
news:6MKdnRdTK-sh54rQ...@sentex.net...
> God's "tabernacle" or dwelling place is in Zion; the church is God's
> temple.
This is an anti-Semitic lie.
1) Jesus is the "temple," and the collective body of believers is His "holy
city."
2) The eternal "New Jerusalem" is made up of Israel as it "was" (the literal
Israelites of the Old Testament), Israel as it "is" (the Gentile believers
of the New Testament), and Israel as it is "yet to come" (starting with the
dualistic Remnant and continuing through the millennium).
3) The reality of the eternal "Jerusalem" in no way changes the fact that
the temple prophecies "were" fulfilled, "are" fulfilled, and WILL BE
FULFILLED AGAIN (and that right soon, relatively speaking).
You have got to stop reading the Satanic garbage from Fairbairn and company.
Ike
--
********
Which of the following is the correct way to read Bible prophecy?
A. Immediacy
B. Historicism
C. Dispensationalism
D. Preterism (Full or Partial)
E. Idealism
F. Realized/Sapiential Eschatology
G. All of the above
H. None of the above
Based on an examination of how (not just what) Jesus and the prophets
prophesied, "The Triune Hypothesis" is a guide to reading the Bible
prophetically in all three dimensions of interpretation-the horizontal axis
in time (what was, is, and/or is to come), the perpendicular axis in
application (literal, figurative, and/or spiritual), and the vertical axis
in context (thesis, generality, and/or antithesis).
Topics of discussion include the resurrections, the triune "Last Days," the
Pentecosts, the one-baptism-in-three-parts, the triple application of the
Elijah prophecies, the Temples in Jerusalem, the Abominations of Desolation,
the Triune Israel, the devolution of prophecy, and much more.
Kindle Version:
Print Version:
Facebook: (discussions enabled)
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/The-Triune-Hypothesis/102657386473773
Web: (filtered blog comments enabled)
http://thetriunist.weebly.com/index.html
Doug
<xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote in article
<ifjshq$oc0$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
> "Doug" <t...@sentex.net> wrote in message
> news:6MKdnRdTK-sh54rQ...@sentex.net...
>
>> God's "tabernacle" or dwelling place is in Zion; the church is God's
>> temple.
>
> This is an anti-Semitic lie.
I don't think so. Paul said,
1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God
dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the
temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is
in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the
temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and
walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Individual believers are called the temple of God, and the church as a
whole is called the temple of God too.
Ephesians 2:18-22
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but
fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus
Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through
the Spirit.
Paul also spoke of the temple of God being where the "man of sin" and the
"son of perdition" sits. [2 Thessalonians 2:3-5] It is elsewhere called
the spirit of antichrist. John wrote:
1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the
flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye
have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
The antichrist spirit does not sit in Christ, but in the church, where it
opposes Christ, and the teaching of the prophets, and the apostles.
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The Jerusalem flood
Daniel said that Jerusalem will suffer a flood!
Daniel 9:26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for
himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the
city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and
unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
After the Messiah had come, and was cut off, the city of Jerusalem was to
suffer an invasion, that would ultimately end in a flood, causing
desolation.
This "flood" is not a literal flood, and neither is the city of Daniel's
prophecy the earthly city. How could a literal flood reach Jerusalem?
There is no river in the vicinity, capable of flooding!
Daniel's prophecy of a "flood" clearly refers to a metaphorical flood, of
misinformation, and of flawed interpretations.
A flood is also mentioned by John in Revelation 12:13-15, where the
church is represented by a woman who is persecuted by the serpent,
identified as Satan. She is given two wings of an eagle, and escapes to
the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, times, and a half.
The serpent sends a flood out of his mouth, intending to carry away the
woman in the flood. Of course, coming from the mouth of the serpent, this
is not a flood of literal water, but a flood of misinformation, a river
of lies, false interpretations, and the like.
Examples of flawed interpretations included in the flood are the
doctrines of dispensationalism and preterism. Both have caused much
desolation and grief in the church, the "Jerusalem" to which Daniel's
prophecy applies. Entire denominations have been split because of
dispensationalism, and dozens of sects have been spawned by it.
Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by
their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of
thistles?" [Matthew 7:15-16]
--
Doug
Ike E 7/1/10
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 00:17:29 -0600, "Ike E 7/1/10"
> <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote in article
> <ifjshq$oc0$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
>
>> "Doug" <t...@sentex.net> wrote in message
>> news:6MKdnRdTK-sh54rQ...@sentex.net...
>>
>>> God's "tabernacle" or dwelling place is in Zion; the church is God's
>>> temple.
>>
>> This is an anti-Semitic lie.
>
> I don't think so.
You don't think, period.
Neither did that fool you've been listening to, Patrick Fairbairn. (Or
should we say he thought himself into oblivion?)
[snippeth]
Ike
--
********
Kindle Version:
Print Version:
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Ike
Ike E 7/1/10
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
> article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
> The Jerusalem flood
>
> Daniel said that Jerusalem will suffer a flood!
And it will be--BOTH ways.
The Gentile will "flood" in, then God will literally "flood" Israel, but
make a way for the new converts to escape across the Jordan.
So much for your idiotic one-way only approach to reading prophecy.
[snippeth]
> Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
> clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by
> their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of
> thistles?" [Matthew 7:15-16]
YOU are "them."
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The name Jerusalem is associated with peace. This name dates from before
the Israelites came into the land. It was a Canaanite city, occupied by
the Jebusites, until it was captured by David. The book of Hebrews tells
us that "Salem" means "peace."
Hebrews 7:1-2
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met
Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by
interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem,
which is, King of peace;
There are many scriptures that promise peace to Jerusalem, which
represents those who are in Christ. Jesus inherited the throne of David,
which is located in Jerusalem.
Psalm 29:11
The LORD will give strength unto his people; the LORD will bless his
people with peace.
Psalm 72:3
The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by
righteousness.
Psalm 122:6
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
Psalm 125:1-2
They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be
removed, but abideth for ever. As the mountains are round about
Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for
ever.
Psalm 125:5
As for such as turn aside unto their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead
them forth with the workers of iniquity: but peace shall be upon Israel.
Psalm 147:12-14
Praise the LORD, O Jerusalem; praise thy God, O Zion. For he hath
strengthened the bars of thy gates; he hath blessed thy children within
thee. He maketh peace in thy borders, and filleth thee with the finest of
the wheat.
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon
the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish
it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal
of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 26:1-3
In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a
strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks. Open ye
the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter
in. Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee:
because he trusteth in thee.
Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good
tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that
publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Isaiah 55:12-13
For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains
and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the
trees of the field shall clap their hands. Instead of the thorn shall
come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle
tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign
that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 54:10-13
For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness
shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be
removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. O thou afflicted, tossed
with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair
colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. And I will make thy
windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of
pleasant stones. And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and
great shall be the peace of thy children.
Isaiah 66:12
For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck,
ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
The promise of peace is like a river, that flows through many scriptures
and prophecies given during various ages in the church. The same theme of
peace continues in the New Testament.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In
the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have
overcome the world.
Ephesians 6:15
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are
called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see
the Lord:
The promise of peace is one of the metaphorical rivers that flows from
Jerusalem to the world. Of course, this is the heavenly Jerusalem, not
the earthly city.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>
>Daniel said that Jerusalem will suffer a flood!
>
bear
>
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>
>The name Jerusalem is associated with peace.
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
God will fight for Jerusalem
In many prophecies, the scriptures are compared to God's sword, with
which he fights against his enemies. In Hebrews we read,
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged
sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of
the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of
the heart.
Many scriptures show God will fight for his church, which is represented
by Jerusalem, and Zion, in the Old Testament.
David prayed that God would fight against his enemies, and those who
strived against him.
Psalm 35:1
Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them
that fight against me.
God promised to deliver his saints from the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 97:10
Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints;
he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
The scriptures, which represented figuratively by God's sword, are
effective not only against wicked men, but against spiritual powers; the
"dragon" and the "serpent" are identified with Satan in the New
Testament.
Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall
punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked
serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
Why is the dragon said to be in the sea? The sea is also symbolic, and as
the sea was one of the boundaries of Israel, it represents the wicked.
Isaiah 57:20
But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose
waters cast up mire and dirt.
God is compared to a lion, who is unafraid of human shepherds.
Isaiah 31:4-5
For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young
lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth
against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for
the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for
mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending
also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.
Joseph Addison Alexander explained the last verse as follows, in his
'Isaiah Translated and Explained': "5. As birds flying (over or around
their nests), so will Jehovah cover over (or protect) Jerusalem, cover
and rescue, pass over and save. The verb here is the one used to denote
the passing over of the houses in Egypt by the destroying angel to which
there may be an allusion here."
Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 34 refers to God's sword. The scriptures are
effective against the spiritual enemies of the saints, which are
represented by the armies of the nations in Isaiah's prophecy, and by
armies of angels in Revelation 12:7. The armies in Isaiah's prophecy are
metaphorical. A metaphorical sword slays metaphorical armies, and wounds
metaphorical flesh, and draws metaphorical blood. The armies delivered to
slaughter in Isaiah's prophecy are spiritual armies, that is, false
doctrines, and flawed interpretations.
Isaiah 34:1-3
Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth
hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth
of it.
For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon
all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them
to the slaughter.
Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of
their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
"Mountains melted with their blood" is a metaphor. Mountains of Israel
are symbolic of the promises to the saints and prophecies of scripture.
These are not literal mountains; flawed theories and interpretations are
discredited. How can literal blood melt literal mountains? The "sword
bathed in heaven" is not a literal sword, but is symbolic of the words of
scripture. In Revelation 19:21, the scriptures are represented by a
"sword" that comes out of Christ's mouth. The warfare is spiritual
warfare, that occurs within the church, and involves the saints.
In Isaiah's prophecy, the heavens being rolled together as a scroll
describes the demise of the old cosmology, in which the heavens revolved
around the earth. When a scroll is rolled together, the rotation stops.
The imagined revolutions of the heavens ceased, at the time of the
scientific revolution. Flawed interpretations of scripture will be
discredited, like those old ideas about cosmology, and the rigid heaven,
and the imaginary planetary spheres.
Isaiah 34:4
And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be
rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the
leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
In Isaiah's prophecy, ancient enemies of Israel, such as Idumea, or Edom,
which have disappeared from history, are put in the place of the enemies
of the church.
Isaiah 34:5-8
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon
Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness,
and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of
rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in
the land of Idumea.
And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the
bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat
with fatness.
For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences
for the controversy of Zion.
Isaiah's reference to Idumea is clearly symbolic, just as "Israel" and
"Jacob" are often symbolic of the saints or the church in prophecy.
Another prophecy shows this spiritual warfare extends over all the earth.
Isaiah 66:16
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the
slain of the LORD shall be many.
Enemies who come against the saints, promoting flawed interpretations of
scripture, fight each other.
Ezekiel 38:21
And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains,
saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Scripture is represented by the full extent of the promised land.
Jeremiah 12:12
The spoilers are come upon all high places through the wilderness: for
the sword of the LORD shall devour from the one end of the land even to
the other end of the land: no flesh shall have peace.
Jeremiah wondered when the sword of the Lord would cease, and be quiet.
Jeremiah 47:6-7
O thou sword of the LORD, how long will it be ere thou be quiet? put up
thyself into thy scabbard, rest, and be still.
How can it be quiet, seeing the LORD hath given it a charge against
Ashkelon, and against the sea shore? there hath he appointed it.
A curse is pronounced upon the timid warrior.
Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be
he that keepeth back his sword from blood.
God's people are referred to as the Lord's "horse."
Zechariah 10:3
Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats:
for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath
made them as his goodly horse in the battle.
Horses represent those with no understanding in Psalm 32:9. Their riders
may be flawed theories, and doctrines.
Zechariah 10:5-6
And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the
mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD
is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded.
And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of
Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon
them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the
LORD their God, and will hear them.
God will defend Jerusalem, which represents the church. Even the feeble
will become strong, like David.
Zechariah 12:8
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he
that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of
David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zechariah said all nations will come against Jerusalem. Anyone not in
Jerusalem, must be among those who come against it.
Zechariah 14:1-4
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in
the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city
shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half
of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people
shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when
he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is
before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the
midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a
very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the
north, and half of it toward the south.
Paul showed that the warfare in which the saints are engaged is not
against flesh and blood, but spiritual.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against
spiritual wickedness in high places.
The sword is not a literal one, but the word of God.
Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is
the word of God:
The apostle Peter said judgment will begin at the house of God, the
church.
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if
it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the
gospel of God?
In Revelation 12, John describes the spiritual warfare as a war between
the angels of Michael and the angels of the dragon. It occurs in heaven;
it is a war in which the territory fought over is a heavenly country.
When the saints are victorious, there is no place found for the dragon or
his angels.
Revelation 12:7-8
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the
dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil,
and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the
earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and
strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for
the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our
God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of
their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Here, the scriptures and invisible things promised to the saints are
represented by the heavenly country; its occupation by the dragon, and
his angels, may represent things about which the saints remain deceived.
Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth
shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be
loosed in heaven." [Matthew 18:18]
Jesus said, "how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his
goods, except he first bind the strong man?" [Matthew 12:29] This shows
that he had bound Satan. John described Satan as bound, and cast into a
bottomless pit. [Revelation 20:1-3] But Satan has ascended from the pit,
and has warred against the two witnesses, which represent the Spirit of
Christ, and the scriptures. [Revelation 11:7]
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>God will fight for Jerusalem
>
Ike E 1/1/11
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
> article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
> The name Jerusalem is associated with peace. This name dates from before
> the Israelites came into the land. It was a Canaanite city, occupied by
> the Jebusites, until it was captured by David. The book of Hebrews tells
> us that "Salem" means "peace."
[snippeth]
> The promise of peace is one of the metaphorical rivers that flows from
> Jerusalem to the world. Of course, this is the heavenly Jerusalem, not
> the earthly city.
AFTER the third and final phase here on earth, oh, clueless one.
Can you count to three?
"Say ye not 'the Temple of the Lord,' 'the Temple of the Lord,' 'the Temple
of the Lord,' are these."
Temple #1: built and destroyed in 587 BC.
Temple #2: built and destroyed in 70 AD.
Temple #3: built and destroyed ?
(And this is without even getting into the subject of the eternal "New
Jerusalem" which comes into existence before the beginning of all things,
but has been with God since before the beginning of all things, which
was/is/will be the Spirit upon which all the temporalities depended.)
Ike E 1/1/11
news:hdguh6d3dbpqrais9...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:26:52 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>>
>
>>>
>>
>>The name Jerusalem is associated with peace.
>
>
> Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
> bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like.
???
Jim Jones was A DISPENSATIONALIST.
So was David Koresh.
They were from YOUR camp, idiot.
[snippeth]
> The Holy Spirit can teach us in many ways, including the writings of
> others, but only if those writings can be verified with how scripture
> reads, not how someone changes them to read.
LOL
The Holy Spirit can't teach you anything--you think you already know it all,
and refuse to read what IS there.
And you people are the EXPERTS on "changing how scripture reads."
> Flee with the greatest of speed from those who refuse to answer your
> questions.
Why does John refer to the 144,000 "singing the song of Moses the Servant of
God" WHEN THAT SONG WAS SUNG AFTER THE DESTRUCTION OF PHARAOH'S FORCES IN
THE RED SEA?
Are you now going to flee from yourself?
[Now comes Bear's Dipsysensationalist two-step]
Ike E 1/1/11
> Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
> "I like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
> legitimate scripture".
You're going to be astounded at your judgment when God shows you all of the
hypocrisy you uttered--you're doing THE EXACT SAME THING as him.
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
God rejoices over Jerusalem
Several scriptures show that God rejoices over Jerusalem, the holy city,
which is his creation, and his building. Jerusalem represents the church,
and is called his bride, and his spouse in Revelation 21:9.
David encouraged the saints to rejoice.
Psalm 5:11
But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever
shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy
name be joyful in thee.
Zion is called "the joy of the whole earth." The church is "the city of
the great King."
Psalm 48:2
Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on
the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
Isaiah said Zion will be like Eden, a paradise.
Isaiah 51:3
For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places;
and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden
of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and
the voice of melody.
The saints will come with singing into Zion.
Isaiah 51:11
Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing
unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall
obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
Their joy is long-lasting.
Isaiah 60:15
Whereas thou has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through
thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.
God will clothe his saints with the garments of salvation, Isaiah said.
Isaiah 61:10-11
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God;
for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me
with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with
ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the
things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause
righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
Christ rejoices over his church like a bridegroom over his bride.
Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and
as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over
thee.
God will create Jerusalem "a rejoicing."
Isaiah 65:18-19
But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold,
I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of
weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
The saints will "rest in his love."
Zephaniah 3:17
In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion,
Let not thine hands be slack.
The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will
rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over
thee with singing.
In Zechariah, the saints of God are called "the apple of his eye."
Zechariah 2:7-8
Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto
the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the
apple of his eye.
In the New Testament, Paul showed the relationship between Christ and his
church is like that between a man and the wife who he loves. [Ephesians
5:25-27]
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>
>
>God rejoices over Jerusalem
>
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like. Yes,
he quotes verses, so did Satan. How many do you have so far Doug,
none?
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
"I like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
The Holy Spirit can teach us in many ways, including the writings of
others, but only if those writings can be verified with how scripture
reads, not how someone changes them to read.
Flee with the greatest of speed from those who refuse to answer your
questions.
Bear
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem is pardoned
Several prophecies say Jerusalem is forgiven. They apply to the church,
the heavenly Jerusalem, rather than the earthly city.
Isaiah said that all who dwell in Jerusalem will be holy.
Isaiah 4:2-4
In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and
the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are
escaped of Israel.
And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that
remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is
written among the living in Jerusalem:
When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,
and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by
the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
God will be gracious to those who dwell in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 30:19
And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and
therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the
LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.
For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more:
he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall
hear it, he will answer thee.
Her iniquity is pardoned.
Isaiah 40:2
Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is
accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the
LORD's hand double for all her sins.
There is no more captivity for the daughter of Zion, but the sins of the
daughter of Edom will be discovered.
Lamentations 4:22
The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he
will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine
iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.
Daniel prayed that God would turn away his anger from Jerusalem.
Daniel 9:16
O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine
anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy
mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers,
Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Zechariah's prophecy below does not apply to the earthly Jerusalem, but
it is a promise to the heavenly Jerusalem, the church.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of
Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look
upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one
mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one
that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
To understand how this applies to the church, consider what Isaiah said:
Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his
stripes we are healed.
Those who are in Christ are the tabernacle of David, in the New Testament.
Zechariah 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to
the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Paul said the saints are "translated" into Christ's kingdom.
Colossians 1:12-14
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of
the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the
power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear
Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness
of sins:
--
Doug
Ike E 1/1/11
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
> article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>
> God rejoices over Jerusalem
Which one? The one that "was," "is," or is "yet to come?" Or the eternal one
that comes into existance after all things, but has been with God since
before the beginning of all things.
[snip the rest of the Nazi replacment theology]
Ike E 1/1/11
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 14:44:39 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>
>>
>>God rejoices over Jerusalem
>>
> Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
> bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like.
One more time for the moron: JIM JONES WAS A DISPENSATIONALIST! HE CAME FROM
THE ADVENTIST BAPTIST CHURCH, WHICH LATER BECAME THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS.
HE'S ONE OF YOUR FATHERS, idiot.
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem's mountains
The mountains of prophecy are symbolic, and especially Mount Zion, in
Jerusalem.
Psalm 74:2
Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of
thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein
thou hast dwelt.
Jerusalem is a city built on mountains. It is surrounded by mountains.
Psalm 125:2
As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about
his people from henceforth even for ever.
Zion includes several mountains. David refers to "the mountains of Zion."
Psalm 133:1-3
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in
unity!
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the
beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of
Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.
Because Mount Hermon was a high mountain, it was often shrouded in cloud
or fog, there was plenty of dew and moisture on its slopes. Apparently,
in the time of Moses and Joshua, Mount Hermon, located on the northern
border of Israel, was considered to be Mount Zion.
Deuteronomy 4:47-49
And they possessed his land, and the land of Og king of Bashan, two kings
of the Amorites, which were on this side Jordan toward the sunrising;
From Aroer, which is by the bank of the river Arnon, even unto mount Sion,
which is Hermon, And all the plain on this side Jordan eastward, even
unto the sea of the plain, under the springs of Pisgah.
In the time of David, the name "Zion" was associated with the region of
Jerusalem.
Sinai also was called "the mountain of God." [Exodus 3:1] It too is
associated with [the earthly] Jerusalem, in Galatians 4:24-25.
In Psalm 114, David said "the mountains skipped like rams, and the little
hills like lambs," when Israel went out of Egypt. This likely refers to
the 12 tribes of Israel, who skipped out of Egypt, and the promises of
God which they inherited. The Israelites "skipped" from place to place,
in the wilderness. Since the label "Zion" was applied to the tribes of
Israel, the shifting of their camps explains how mountains "skip" like
rams. Eventually the tabernacle was moved to Jerusalem.
According to Psalm 125, Mount Zion cannot be moved.
Psalm 125:1
They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be
removed, but abideth for ever.
The verse shows the symbolic meaning of Mount Zion, and what it
represents. The name signifies those who have faith in God, the saints.
Mountains are fixed in place, and endure for long periods of time. Thus
they are employed to represent the promises of God in scripture.
In the prophecy of Daniel 2:35, 45, which was a dream of king
Nebuchadnezzar, Christ is represented by a stone, that was cut from a
mountain, without hands. And in a prophecy of Isaiah, Christ is the
foundation of all those with faith.
Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation
a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he
that believeth shall not make haste.
From Mount Zion, which represents the church, the gospel goes to the
world:
Isaiah 40:9
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O
Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength;
lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your
God!
Other scriptures associate the gospel with mountains, symbolic of God's
promises.
Isaiah 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good
tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that
publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Nahum 1:15
Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings,
that publisheth peace!
--
Doug
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Armies around Jerusalem
Jesus said there would be armies around Jerusalem, and when that occurs,
he said his disciples should understand that its desolation is nigh. He
linked this to the prophecies of Daniel. But which Jerusalem did he mean?
Supposing he meant the earthly Jerusalem, why would the disciples need to
know the city was in peril, if they could see armies approaching, or
camped around the city? Wouldn't the danger be obvious?
Hmm...
Luke 21:20-22
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the
desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them
which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the
countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all
things which are written may be fulfilled.
Preterists interpret this prophecy of Jesus as referring to the siege
followed by the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 AD. The
problem is, in prophecy, Jerusalem represents the New Testament church.
Which Jerusalem was Christ referring to? The earthly one, that was
destroyed, or the heavenly Jerusalem?
Why would the church need to know if the earthly Jerusalem was about to
be destroyed?
Zechariah's prophecy, in chapter 14, said that armies of all nations
would come against Jerusalem. In 70 AD the armies were Roman. Zechariah's
prophecy said that God would fight against the invading nations, but that
did not happen in 70 AD. So, perhaps Jesus was not referring to the
earthly city, but must have been referring to the church, which in the
New Testament, is represented by heavenly Jerusalem.
The armies that come against the church are not armies of flesh, but
spiritual. [Ephesians 6:12] Thus, these armies need to be perceived with
a spiritual eye, and with a mind enlightened by an understanding of
prophecy. According to many prophecies, the Jerusalem under assault in
the end time is the church, the heavenly city, not the earthly city.
Dispensationalism, preterism, liberalism, sects, and denominations are
represented among these armies. Jesus said, "But woe unto them that are
with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be
great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people." [Luke 21:23-28]
Although this seems to be a warning especially for pregnant mothers, and
those who nurse infants, in fact, those who are "with child," and who
"give suck" in his prophecy could be symbolic of preachers, and those who
teach others within the church. The reason for the "woe" must be that
with new understanding, the old interpretations and traditions could be
threatened, and shown to be flawed. Teachers especially need to be
informed. They need to be aware of the new developments and understanding
of prophecy. When Christ provides new clothes, he warns us not to return
for our old ones.
The following verses seem to show the state of the church for much of its
history; trodden down by Gentiles means the saints have been dominated
and ruled by men who lack the "circumcision of the heart" of the saints.
But Christ will reveal himself, "coming in a cloud with power and great
glory." The cloud is a "cloud of witnesses." [Hebrews 12:1]
Luke 21:24-28
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away
captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the
waves roaring;
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things
which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and
great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up
your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>
>Jerusalem is pardoned
>
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Jerusalem's mountains
>
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Armies around Jerusalem
>
Ike E 1/1/11
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
> article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
> Jerusalem's mountains
>
> The mountains of prophecy are symbolic, and especially Mount Zion, in
> Jerusalem.
More unequivocal false statements from the false prophet.
Here is a prophecy from Zechariah in which he melds the literal, figurative,
and spiritual into one prophecy...
Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the
midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the
mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.
Important points.
Jesus is "the Holy Mountain," that is, the Most High of the less high.
Zion is "the holy mountain" where "the Holy Mountain" shall dwell.
Jesus WILL RULE from the LITERAL Zion in the last phase of God's program,
the Millennium.
None of this changes the fact that everything earthly is a living metaphor
for the eternal.
So much for your false doctrines, based on the flawed notion that there is
only one way to interpret prophecy at a time.
[snippeth]
Ike E 1/1/11
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
> article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
> Armies around Jerusalem
>
> Jesus said there would be armies around Jerusalem, and when that occurs,
> he said his disciples should understand that its desolation is nigh. He
> linked this to the prophecies of Daniel. But which Jerusalem did he mean?
There were/are/will be THREE desolations, false prophet--the one that "was"
(by Antiochus IV Epiphanes), the one that "is" (by the Romans), and the one
that is YET TO COME (by the antichristians and antijews).
"That which has been is now, and that which is to be has already become, and
God requires that which is past." Ecc 3:15
MAN, are you dense.
Ike E 1/1/11
[snippeth]
> Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
> bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like.
One more time for the moron: JIM JONES WAS A DISPENSATIONALIST. He got his
false "religion" from the Seventh Day Baptist Church, which got its false
doctrines from the Baptist Church, which got its false doctrines from the
cult of the Plymouth Brethren.
In other words, HE IS "YOU."
Doug's false Idealist doctrines come from Patrick Fairbairn, who arose at
the same time as the cult of the Plymouth Brethren, and he was directly
opposed to their new, false Dispensationalist doctrines.
They both had a point, but they were BOTH wrong. One took one false one-way
only approach; the other took a different false one-way only approach. They
were both completely full of crap.
There were gaps between the three iterations of prophecy, but they do NOT
directly connect together in any line or segment.
The events from the destruction of the first temple to the end of the
Maccabean Revolt were a fulfillment.
Gap.
The events from the time Pompey defiled the second temple until the end of
the Simon bar Koseba Revolt was a fulfillment.
Gap.
THEN COMES THE END OF THE AGE; not in parts, but IN ITS ENTIRETY.
As to the others foolishness, prophecy does move from figure to spiritual
interpretation sometimes, but it also moves BACK TO THE LITERAL AGAIN.
And that was Fairbairn's screw up.
In other words, neither one of you two blithering idiots knows what you're
talking about.
<chuckle>
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem the furnace of God
Bible scholars say Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 29 about Ariel is about
Jerusalem.
Isaiah 29:1-2
Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year;
let them kill sacrifices. Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be
heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
The name "Ariel" is thought to mean a furnace. J. A. Alexander
interprets, "it shall be indeed a furnace or an altar, i. e. when the
fire of affliction or divine wrath shall be kindled on it."
Isaiah said that God will visit Jerusalem with "flame of devouring fire."
Isaiah 29:6-7
Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with
earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of
devouring fire.
The enemies who fight against her will vanish, Isaiah said, as if they
were the subjects of a dream.
Isaiah 29:6-7
And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all
that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be
as a dream of a night vision.
It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth;
but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth,
and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and
his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be,
that fight against mount Zion.
Many prophecies refer to Jerusalem in a metaphorical way, the earthly
city representing the heavenly city, which is the church. See the article
at:
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/dload/Jer.pdf
This idea, that Jerusalem represents the church, allows us to better
understand and make sense of Isaiah's prophecy. The real enemies of
Jerusalem are not flesh and blood, but spiritual. And thus, they are like
nations and armies of a dream; symbolic, not literal armies.
How could the symbolical nature of Jerusalem's enemies in Isaiah's
prophecies be more plainly stated?
Paul said, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of
this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [Ephesians 6:12]
The idea of Jerusalem being God's furnace is also seen in Isaiah 31:9,
where God's fire is said to be Zion, and his furnace Jerusalem.
Isaiah 31:6-9
Turn ye unto him from whom the children of Israel have deeply revolted.
For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his
idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin.
Then shall the Assyrian fall with the sword, not of a mighty man; and the
sword, not of a mean man, shall devour him: but he shall flee from the
sword, and his young men shall be discomfited.
And he shall pass over to his strong hold for fear, and his princes shall
be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD, whose fire is in Zion, and his
furnace in Jerusalem.
Ezekiel takes up the same metaphor, referring to the refining of metals
such as silver, brass, iron, lead, and tin, in his prophecy about the
"bloody city."
Ezekiel 22:1-2; 22:17-22
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Now, thou son of man,
wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt shew
her all her abominations.
...
And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they are
brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are
even the dross of silver.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye are all become dross,
behold, therefore I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.
As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the
midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I
gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and
melt you.
Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye
shall be melted in the midst therof.
As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in
the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my
fury upon you.
Ezekiel mentioned the following complaints:
Ezekiel 22:25-26
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a
roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken
the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the
midst thereof.
Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things:
they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have
they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid
their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Zechariah also spoke of the saints being brought through a fire, and
refined like silver and gold. Jesus identified himself as the shepherd in
the prophecy. [Matthew 26:31, Mark 14:27]
Zechariah 13:7-9
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my
fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall
be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two
parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left
therein.
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as
silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on
my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they
shall say, The LORD is my God.
Malachi, in a prophecy that refers to Jerusalem, compared Christ's coming
to "a refiner's fire."
Malachi 3:2
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he
appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify
the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer
unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD,
as in the days of old, and as in former years.
He said that day would "burn as an oven," consuming the wicked.
Malachi 4:1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the
proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that
cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave
them neither root nor branch.
In the New Testament, the apostle Peter said the trial of our faith is
"much more precious than gold."
1 Peter 1:3-8
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according
to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not
away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to
be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are
in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold
that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise
and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet
believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
He said when trials come, not to think it strange, but to rejoice.
1 Peter 4:12-13
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try
you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that,
when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>
>Bible scholars say Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 29 about Ariel is about
>Jerusalem.
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
God's everlasting covenant
God promises to make an everlasting covenant with those who seek him. It
is a covenant of mercy, as he promised to David. The covenant idea is
further explained and developed in several prophecies by Isaiah,
Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and others. The covenant theme continues in
the New Testament.
Isaiah 55:1-5
Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no
money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money
and without price.
Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour
for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye
that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I
will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of
David.
Isaiah encouraged people to seek God, and to avoid doing any evil.
Isaiah 56:1-2
Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation
is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold
on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand
from doing any evil.
Isaiah encourages eunuchs, and the sons of strangers to take hold of
God's covenant. God's house is to be called "a house of prayer for all
people."
Isaiah 56:4-7
For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and
choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and
a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an
everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve
him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that
keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of
prayer for all people.
God's covenant was that his Spirit and his word would remain with his
people and their seed for ever.
Isaiah 59:19-21
So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from
the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the
Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from
transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that
is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not
depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the
mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
An everlasting covenant is mentioned again in Isaiah 61:8. The scripture
in this chapter was read to the Jews at Nazareth by Jesus, who said,
"This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears." [Luke 4:21]
Isaiah 61:1-3, 8
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed
me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the
brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance
of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for
ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit
of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the
planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
...
8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I
will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant
with them.
Jeremiah said a new covenant will be made with the house of Israel and
with the house of Judah, which evidently, represent the church, as
Jeremiah's prophecy is quoted and applied to the church in Hebrews
8:10-13, and in Hebrews 10:16-17.
Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the
day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith
the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of
Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their
inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and
they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man
his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the
least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will
forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
God promised that he would not turn away from his people, but that he
will "make an everlasting covenant with them."
Jeremiah 32:37-42
37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven
them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring
them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for
ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not
turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their
hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them
in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil
upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have
promised them.
The "land" where the saints are to be planted is a "heavenly" country, as
the author of Hebrews said:
Hebrews 11:16
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God
is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a
city.
The promised land of the Israelites in the Old Testament was symbolic; it
was a shadow and type of invisible, spiritual things promised to the
church, and the saints, their "rest."
Ezekiel said God will establish his covenant with Jerusalem, which
represents the church and the heavenly Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 16:62-63
And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am
the LORD:
That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth
any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all
that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
God will bring his people into the wilderness of the people, and "purge
out from among you the rebels." They will not enter the land of Israel.
Ezekiel 20:35-38
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I
plead with you face to face.
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of
Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the
bond of the covenant:
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress
against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they
sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall
know that I am the LORD.
God will "set his sanctuary in their midst."
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an
everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them,
and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Daniel said that Christ would confirm the covenant with many for one
week. This week spans all the time from Christ's ministry to the end of
the age, as Christ still confirms his covenant with his saints.
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the
midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even
until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the
desolate.
In Malachi, Christ is called "the messenger of the covenant."
Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the
messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come,
saith the LORD of hosts.
God's covenant of mercy is mentioned in the prophecy of Zacharias, given
at the birth of his son, who was John the Baptist.
Luke 1:67-79
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and
prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed
his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his
servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since
the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all
that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy
covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand
of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou
shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of
their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on
high hath visited us,
79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death,
to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Paul said Jesus came "to confirm the promises made unto the fathers."
Romans 15:8-9
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the
truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written,
For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto
thy name.
Paul said Gentile believers have been "made nigh" to the covenants of
promise given to Israel.
Ephesians 2:11-13
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who
are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the
flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the
commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by
the blood of Christ.
In Hebrews 12:4, Jesus is called "the mediator of the new covenant."
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>God's everlasting covenant
>
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The earthly Jerusalem cast out
Paul showed the earthly Jerusalem was "cast out," and he said the
Jerusalem above is the "mother of us all." The earthly Jerusalem, the
Jerusalem that "now is," was identified with the bondage, and the letter
of the Mosaic law, that was given on Sinai.
Paul identified the earthly city with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman who
was cast out of Abraham's household, whose story is told in Genesis 16.
In his letter to the Galatians, Paul responded to the Judaisers, and
literalists, who sought to bring Gentile believers under bondage,
teaching them that they needed to observe the holy days, food
restrictions, pay tithes, and observe similar rules of the law of Moses,
that were unnecessary. These men wanted Gentile believers to live as
Jews. Paul wrote,
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid,
the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of
the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one
from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem
which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
In Abraham's family, the son who was born after the flesh, Ishmael,
mocked Isaac, who was "born of promise." Ishmael's mother was Hagar;
Isaac's mother was Sarah. In the early church those who were spiritual
were persecuted by Judaisers and literalists.
Galatians 4:29-31
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was
born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her
son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the
freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the
free.
In the heavenly Jerusalem, there is a contrast between the old, and the
new. The book of Hebrews explains many of the changes. The old covenant
included many things that were types and shadows of the eternal,
spiritual things in the new.
Chris Wright showed how the new covenant replaces the main features of
the old system with better and more lasting things.
<quote>
Hebrews' affirmations of what 'we have' are surprisingly comprehensive.
We have the land, described as the 'rest' into which we have entered
through Christ, in a way which even Joshua did not achieve for Israel
(3:12-4:11); we have a High Priest (4:14, 8:1, 10:21) and an altar
(13:10); we have a hope, which in the context refers to the reality of
the covenant made with Abraham (6:13-20). We enter into the Holy Place,
so we have the reality of tabernacle and temple (10:19). We have come to
Mt. Zion (12:22) and we are receiving a kingdom, in line with Haggai 2:6
(12:28). Indeed, according to Hebrews (13:14), the only thing which we do
not have is an earthly, territorial city!
All this is consistent other teaching within the New Testament: with
Paul, who argues that we have the reality of the law by being released
from legalism in the power of the Spirit, so that the true righteousness
of the law is fulfilled in us (Rom. 8:1-4); with Peter, who affirms that
we have the reality of the inheritance by being released from the
material, territorial land with its vulnerability to robbery and
destruction (1 Pet. 1:4); indeed with Jesus himself, who gives us the
reality of the Davidic kingdom through our membership of the inaugurated
kingdom of God which it had always represented.
</quote>
[Chris Wright, A Christian Approach to Old Testament Prophecy Concerning
Israel. In: Jerusalem: Past and Present in the Purposes of God. Peter W.
L. Walker, editor. Cambridge: Tyndale House, 1992. p. 18-19.]
http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jerusalem_wright.pdf
In Hebrews, the old and new covenants are contrasted. The freedom that
believers now have to come to God, without a human intermediary, as
required in the old system, is made clear. John Owen wrote the following
in his exposition of Hebrews 4:16:
<quote>
There are therefore two things that the apostle intends to remove, and to
have us free or delivered from, in our drawing near to the throne of
grace with our prayers and supplications, on the account of the
interposition of our high Priest.
First, A bondage-frame of spirit, or a spirit of bondage unto fear, which
was upon the people under the Old Testament in the worship of God. This
he elsewhere frequently both ascribes unto them, and removes from us,
Rom. viii. 14, 15. 2 Cor. iii. 12--18. God in the giving of the law, and
the institution of the ordinances of worship, wherein he taught the
people how he would be reverenced by them, had so encompassed himself
with fire and terror, that it engenerated a great and awful horror in
their minds. This made them remove and stand afar off, desiring that God
would not approach to them, nor that they might approach unto God, but
that all things between them might be transacted at a distance by an
internuntius, Exod. xx. 18, 19. This legal diffidence and distrust in our
approaches unto God, which shuts up the heart, straitens the spirit, and
takes away the liberty of treating with him as a Father, is now by Christ
removed and taken away, Gal. iv. 4-- 6. Christ was made under the law, to
deliver us from the dread and bondage of it; whereby also we receive the
adoption of children, and therewithal the Spirit of Christ to treat with
God, with the liberty, boldness and ingenuity of children, crying, Abba
Father, with the genuine actings of faith and love.
Secondly, A disbelief of acceptance arising from a sense of our own
unworthiness. From an apprehension of God's greatness and terror there
arises a dread in persons under the law. And from the consideration of
their own vileness, there arises a distrust in sinners, accompanied with
fear and despondency, as though there were no hope for them in him. This
also the apostle would remove upon the account of the priesthood of
Christ. The manner assigned unto us for our approach to God includes all
this; we are to do it ... 'with boldness;' which word imports ... a
freedom and liberty in speaking; rendered here by Beza, loquendi libertas.
This liberty is internal and spiritual, and is opposed unto the legal
diffidence and bondage before described. This ... therefore in the first
place is our spiritual liberty and freedom, attended with a holy
confidence in our access to God, to make our request known unto him,
expressing our condition, our wants, our desires, freely and with
confidence.
</quote>
[An exposition of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Volume 4. By John Owen p.
449-450.]
http://books.google.com/books?id=z3QHAQAAIAAJ
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>The earthly Jerusalem cast out
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem will be called the throne of the Lord
Scripture shows that God reigns over all, including the heathen. He is
all-powerful.
Psalm 47:8
God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his
holiness.
Zion is the name of God's dwelling, which is called his house, and his
rest.
Psalm 132:13-14
For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
God's reign is unto all generations.
Psalm 146:10
The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all
generations. Praise ye the LORD.
Jerusalem will be called the throne of the Lord.
Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all
the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to
Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of
their evil heart.
Christ inherited the throne of David, which was in Jerusalem.
Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government
shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon
the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish
it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal
of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
When Christ reigns among his saints, the light outshines the sun. It is
the light of the gospel.
Isaiah 24:23
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of
hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his
ancients gloriously.
The throne of God is heaven, earth is his footstool.
Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my
footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the
place of my rest?
Christ reigns in mount Zion.
Micah 4:7
And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off
a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from
henceforth, even for ever.
Christ is the Branch who will build the temple of the Lord. He is both
king and priest in his church.
Zechariah 6:12-13
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his
place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory,
and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his
throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Jesus said, heaven is God's throne, and also, that Jerusalem is the city
of the great King. Together these two statements define the heavenly
Jerusalem.
Matthew 5:33-35
Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou
shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's
throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it
is the city of the great King.
When the angel announced to Mary that she would give birth to Jesus, he
was promised the throne of David, a perpetual kingdom.
Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son,
and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the
Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his
kingdom there shall be no end.
The apostle Peter said Christ had ascended to heaven, and sits on the
throne of David.
Acts 2:29-36
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this
day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath
to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would
raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his
soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received
of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this,
which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The
Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath
made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Paul said the saints "sit together in heavenly places" in Christ.
Ephesians 2:4-7
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
(by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly
places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his
grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Peter said the saints are "a royal priesthood." They are priests of God,
and of the line of David. The saints are brethren, in God's household.
1 Peter 2:9-10
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a
peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath
called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:
which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Jesus promised those who overcome that they will share his throne.
Revelation 3:21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as
I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
The saints are called kings and priests.
Revelation 5:9-10
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and
to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to
God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and
nation;
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on
the earth.
In Revelation 20:4-6, those who are beheaded are the ones who reign with
Christ. Beheading is symbolic of becoming a "living sacrifice."
Sacrifices were beheaded.
In the holy city, God is the source of light.
Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light
of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for
ever and ever.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>
>Jerusalem will be called the throne of the Lord
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Jerusalem trodden under foot by Gentiles
Jesus said Jerusalem would be "trodden down of the Gentiles, until the
times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away
captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the
Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
This reference to "the times of the Gentiles" clearly refers to the
"times" of prophecy, and in Daniel 7:25, the saints are given into the
hand of a little horn for "a time and times and the dividing of time."
The "times of the Gentiles" are related to this period, which is one-half
of seven times, and the seven times are explained further by the 70 weeks
prophecy in Daniel 9. The 70 weeks are divided into three sections, 7
weeks, 62 weeks, and one week, and the final week is a period of 7 times,
the last half of which is the "time, times and a half," at the end of
which, all of Daniel's prophecies are fulfilled, according to Daniel 12:7.
The 70 weeks prophecy is a prophecy about Jerusalem, but it is the
Jerusalem of prophecy, the holy city, which is distinguished from the
earthly city by Paul in Galatians 4. The earthly city was "cast out,"
Paul showed, as Hagar, who was Sarah's handmaid, was "cast out" of the
household of Abraham, along with her son.
In the final week of the 70 weeks prophecy, Christ confirms his covenant
with many, and the city and sanctuary are destroyed, and become desolate,
and eventually, something is poured out upon the desolator, a judgment
that has been previously determined. Confirming the covenant refers to
the gospel. Paul said, "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the
circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the
fathers:" [Romans 15:8] He identified the church with "the circumcision."
Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice
in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
The false teachers who have made the holy city desolate will be judged.
The apostle Peter wrote, about the false teachers who were troubling the
church:
2 Peter 2:3
And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise
of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their
damnation slumbereth not.
Clearly, the Jerusalem which is trodden under foot by Gentiles is not the
earthly city, but the church, and this is also mentioned by John in
Revelation.
Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread
under foot forty and two months.
The forty two months alludes to the "time, times and a half" of Daniel
7:25, the period for which the saints are given into the hand of the
little horn. The horn arises out of the fourth beast, which represents
the Roman Empire. It has "eyes like the eyes of a man," and a mouth
speaking great things. Daniel said of this horn, "even of that horn that
had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more
stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the
saints, and prevailed against them." Daniel's prophecy shows that the
church was overcome by worldly men, having a human viewpoint, as opposed
to the divine point of view, which is confirmed in history. Much nonsense
has been said and written by religious men who claim to represent Christ.
The Gentiles in Revelation 11:2 are said to occupy the outer court of the
temple, and were not measured in John's prophecy. This implies the temple
proper represents the saints in the prophecy.
The church is represented by the temple proper, while its outer courts
are given to Gentiles, those who adhere to a nominal, superficial kind of
Christianity. The church is a field of wheat that is sown with tares by
an enemy, in the parable of Jesus. [Matthew 13:36-43]
The saints are sheep, who "wandered through all the mountains, and upon
every high hill" and were "scattered upon all the face of the earth" in
Ezekiel's prophecy of Ezekiel 34. Ezekiel says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their
hand." [vs. 10]
Some individuals, like cattle who trample the pasture of the sheep, and
foul their drinking water with their feet, trample upon the spiritual
nourishment that God has provided, and try to discredit the truth.
Ezekiel 34:19
And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet;
and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
Jeremiah wrote a similar prophecy, using the metaphor of a vineyard.
Jeremiah 12:10-11
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion
under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
They have made it desolate, and being desolate it mourneth unto me; the
whole land is made desolate, because no man layeth it to heart.
Compare the parable of Jesus about a vineyard, in Matthew 21:33-43. The
promised land of many prophecies is symbolic of the spiritual inheritance
of the saints, and their promised "rest." [Hebrews 4:9] Understanding the
prophecies of scripture is part of the spiritual inheritance of the
church; misinterpreting prophecy, as Revised dispensationalism, Classical
dispensationalism, Ultradispensationalism, Progressive dispensationalism,
Mid-Acts dispensationalism, Partial preterism, Full preterism, Hyper
preterism and many other "isms" do, makes the "land" desolate.
--
Doug
http://vinyl2.sentex.ca/~tcc/dload/Jer.pdf
http://www.sentex.ca/~tcc/
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Jerusalem trodden under foot by Gentiles
>
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
The times of Jerusalem
The 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 applies to Jerusalem. The prophecy of
Isaiah 44:24-28 indicates that the 70 weeks were to begin from the decree
of Cyrus, as he was the one appointed to give the command to build both
the city of Jerusalem and the temple. Isaiah wrote:
Isaiah 44:28
That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my
pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the
temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
When counting the time that elapsed before the appearance of Christ, the
dispensationalists invoke years of 360 days, and begin from an event
subsequent to the decree of Cyrus, one of several directives that were
issued to implement portions of the original decree of Cyrus in 538 BCE.
My approach is different; I consider the possibility that different units
may apply in the various sections of the 70 weeks.
The role of different units suggests an excellent reason for the three
sections of the 70 weeks. Otherwise, if the units were the same
throughout, how would one distinguish between the sections? Why have
three sections? Why not simply say there are 69 weeks to the coming of
Christ, instead of dividing that period into two sections, of 7 weeks,
and 62 weeks?
The end dates for the first two sections work out nicely, if the units of
the first section are taken as leap years instead of regular years, and
the units of the second section are regular seven year cycles. Leap years
were years with an extra month, in the ancient calendar of the Hebrews
and Babylonians. There are 7 leap years in a 19 year period, which was
later known as a Metonic cycle. So 7 of these "weeks" is 7 x 19 = 133
years. This includes 49 leap years having 13 months. The second section
is 62 x 7 = 434 years. Counting from 538 BCE, these two sections end in
28 AD, in the ministry of Jesus, and so fulfil that part of the
prophecy.
The final week, the 70th week, is the period in which Christ confirms his
covenant with many. The earthly ministry of Jesus ended at the
crucifixion, and afterwards he was raised from the grave, and ascended to
heaven.
In Isaiah's prophecy about Jerusalem, the city was to be raised up, and
exulted above the mountains and hills. [Isaiah 2:1-3] When Jesus ascended
to heaven, his reign in the heavenly Jerusalem began. And the spiritual
nature of his kingdom is illustrated by a change in the way time is
reckoned, in the final half of the 70th week. The last three and a half
years of the 70th week are not earth years, determined by the rotation of
the earth, and its annual orbit, or by the seasons, or by lunar months.
Instead, the last half-week consists of three and a half symbolic years.
They are not to be measured in earth years, months, or days. The units
change, since they apply to a spiritual and heavenly realm, rather than
an earthly city or kingdom.
And so the reason the first half of the 70th week was a literal three
years and a half, (which was probably the duration of the ministries of
Jesus and John the Baptist) while the last half-week is symbolic, is
explained. The Jerusalem to which the 70 weeks prophecy applies was no
longer the earthly city, after Christ ascended to heaven, but became the
heavenly Jerusalem, which is called the bride, and wife of the Lamb.
Other time periods in Revelation are symbolic too. The 1,000 years of
Revelation 20, for which Satan is bound, and when the saints who are
"beheaded" reign with Christ, are not defined by the earth's revolutions,
or its orbit around the sun. The apostle Peter said, "But, beloved, be
not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a
thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." [2 Peter 3:8] This
clearly warns that "day" and "thousand years" are both prophetic symbols,
and numbers and time periods in prophecy should be understood in a
symbolic way, rather than in a literal sense, especially if the subject
is the spiritual realm, and the heavenly city.
--
Doug
Ike E 1/1/11
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
> article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
> The times of Jerusalem
>
> The 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel 9 applies to Jerusalem.
Yep. In THREE distinct contexts.
1) The history of Israel from the destruction of the temple (actually, the
end of Jeremiah delivering God's decree in c. 580 BC) to the end of the
Maccabean Revolt.
2) The history of Israel and Christianity from the time the Roman's entered
Jerusalem 62 years before Jesus came up out of Egypt to the end of the Simon
bar Kochba Revolt, which started 62 years after the temple was destroyed in
70 AD and continued for 3 1/2 years (with the final result being that the
Jews wound up right back where they started).
3) The End of the Age, as SEVENTY YEARS (as declared in seven OT
prophecies), and divided into three parts, just as Jesus said...
I. The Beginning of Sorrows
II. The rise and rule of the unholy ones over Jerusalem.
III. The rebuke of God and the beginning of the Day of the Lord.
Let me know when you get a clue as to how prophecy works.
Doug
article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>
Astonished horses at Jerusalem
The prophet Zechariah said Jerusalem will attract the attention of all
the people of the earth, who will be gathered against it. He described
the holy city as "a burdensome stone." And he spoke of horses becoming
astonished, and their riders becoming mad.
Zechariah 12:3-4
And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people:
all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the
people of the earth be gathered together against it.
In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment,
and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of
Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
The "burdensome stone" in verse 3 alludes to the stone cut from a
mountain without hands in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, in Daniel 2. The
stone smote the image on the feet, and grew to become a great mountain
that filled the entire earth. This represents Christ and his church.
Daniel 2:34-35
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the
image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken
to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer
threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found
for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and
filled the whole earth.
Zechariah's reference to Jerusalem as "a burdensome stone" identifies it
with God's kingdom, which in the New Testament is the "heavenly
Jerusalem."
In Zechariah's prophecy, horses represent those who have no
understanding. David said, "Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which
have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle,
lest they come near unto thee." [Psalm 32:9]
Horses may also represent carnally minded people. Jeremiah wrote: "They
were as fed horses in the morning: every one neighed after his
neighbour's wife." [Jeremiah 5:8]
Many people fit one of these categories, and so are represented by
horses. The scriptures distinguish between white horses, and those of
other colours.
Zechariah said the house of Judah is God's flock, and they will be his
"goodly horse" in the battle. [Zechariah 10:3] In the prophecy, the house
of Judah represents the church, as Jesus said "For salvation is of the
Jews." [John 4:22] In Revelation 19, the armies in heaven who follow
Christ ride upon white horses.
Revelation 19:11-14
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon
him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and
make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and
he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called
The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Paul said that destruction would come from God's presence, and fall upon
those who "obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be
revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey
not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of
the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in
all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in
that day.
The "flaming fire" of verse 8 refers to the message of the gospel, and
the scriptures. Zechariah said:
Zechariah 12:6
In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire
among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall
devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and
Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
This "fire" devours spiritual enemies, represented by the people who come
against Jerusalem. The fire is a metaphor, not literal fire. Flawed
interpretations are burned up, when the message of the gospel is properly
understood.
An awful plague smites the spiritual enemies of the saints; their flesh,
and eyes, and tongue are affected. The plague is metaphorical. I suggest
these armies represent flawed interpretations, and false doctrines, which
will be discredited. Those who fight against the truth are deceived, and
so are described as "blind" in scripture; Zechariah's description of the
eyes of Jerusalem's enemies consuming away in their holes probably
depicts the spiritual effects of delusions. Those who reject the divine
authority of the scripture fail to understand spiritual things; on the
other hand, those who fail to perceive the symbolic nature of prophecy,
and take it literally, reach absurd conclusions. When refuted or
scrutinized, the flawed theories provide no satisfactory answer, which
could be what is represented by their tongue being consumed away in their
mouth.
Zechariah 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people
that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while
they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their
holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Supporters of rival interpretations often fight against each other.
Zechariah 14:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD
shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his
neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
The plague smites the spiritual enemies of Jerusalem, and it also affects
deceived people, who are represented by animals, such as horses, mules,
camels, and asses.
Zechariah 14:15
And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and
of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this
plague.
In Jesus' parable of the tares, at the end of this world, things that
offend are to be gathered out of his kingdom, and bundled together, and
burned.
Matthew 13:40-43
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it
be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of
his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and
gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their
Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
--
Doug
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>The times of Jerusalem
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,
bear
>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>The Jerusalem of prophecy is a city that is built by God.
>>
>
>Astonished horses at Jerusalem
Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,
Doug
article <mpnbi6lif021d171g...@4ax.com>:
Ted's problem is that he reads "unending infernal torment" or similar
ideas into the scriptures he quoted above, a idea that is not founded on
the scripture, but upon pagan tradition, and superstition. The Latin
church fathers who believed in it tried to blend that concept into their
theology, which resulted in a corrupted form of the gospel. This was
foretold by the prophets, and by the apostle Peter, who said, "The sun
shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great
and notable day of the Lord come." He was quoting from the prophet Joel.
The sun represents the gospel; the sun being turned to darkness
represents the ignorance and darkness of those deceived by the false
doctrines and interpretations of those church fathers, Augustine
especially.
Most of the alleged references to "hell" by Jesus reported in the gospels
are actually references to "Gehenna," which have been mistranslated, or
interpreted, rather than translated. The translators of the KJV were
believers in the idea of hell and infernal torment which they inherited
from the Roman Catholic Church. "Gehenna" in the 12 scriptures where it
occurs in the New Testament refers to a valley in the vicinity of
Jerusalem that was used as a garbage dump. Its meaning can be understood
when Jerusalem is recognized as the heavenly city. To be cast into
Gehenna means to miss out on being included in God's kingdom, and in the
resurrection of the saints; it does not imply "unending infernal torment"
at all. That belief originates in pagan superstition.
Twelve references to Gehenna in the NT
Matthew 5:21-22
Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill;
and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say
unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger
of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be
in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in
danger of the hell [i.e., Gehenna] of fire.
Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should
perish, and not thy whole body go into hell [i.e., Gehenna].
Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it
from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should
perish, and not thy whole body go into hell [i.e., Gehenna].
Matthew 10:28
And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill
the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body
in hell [i.e., Gehenna].
Matthew 18:9
And if thy hand cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to
enter into life maimed, rather than having thy two hands to go into hell
[i.e., Gehenna], into the unquenchable fire.
Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and
land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold
more a son of hell [i.e., Gehenna] than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of
hell [i.e., Gehenna]?
Mark 9:43-44
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [i.e., Gehenna],
into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not,
and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter
halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell [i.e.,
Gehenna], into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to
enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be
cast into hell [i.e., Gehenna] fire:
Luke 12:4-5
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body,
and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom ye
shall fear: Fear him, who after he hath killed, hath power to cast into
hell [i.e., Gehenna]: yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our
members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course
of nature; and it is set on fire of hell [i.e., Gehenna].
The "fire in each of these scriptures is metaphorical. James said "the
tongue is a fire..." obviously a metaphor. It is similar with the fire
connected with Gehenna. It refers to the judgment.
> "Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
> teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
> believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
> infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
> comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
> all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
> God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
> teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
> unending torment!
>
> WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
> GOD." (emphasis are mine)
Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
--
Doug
Doug
article <3ql3i61bnhcsjtu22...@4ax.com>:
Actually this verse refers to "Gehenna" and not "hell" as that word is
commonly (mis)understood. It is one of 12 places in the New Testament
where "Gehenna" occurs in the Greek.
The Weymouth New Testament translates:
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but
rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
This is more accurate than most other translations of the verse which
interpret "Gehenna" as referring to "hell" which has a lot of
superstition and baggage associated with it.
Another example occurs in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.
Matthew 5:21-22
Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill;
and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say
unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger
of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be
in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in
danger of the hell [i.e., Gehenna] of fire.
The Weymouth New Testament translates:
Matthew 5:21-22
You have heard that it was said to the ancients, `Thou shalt not commit
murder', and whoever commits murder will be answerable to the magistrate.
But I say to you that every one who becomes angry with his brother shall
be answerable to the magistrate; that whoever says to his brother `Raca,'
shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin; and that whoever says, `You fool!'
shall be liable to the Gehenna of Fire.
It is Gehenna, a literal valley near Jerusalem, that is referred to here,
and it is figurative, but does not suggest "unending infernal torment."
The city of Jerusalem represents the church, the kingdom of Christ, and
salvation, so to be rejected from it meant to miss out, and to be
considered unworthy of the blessings that are in store for the faithful.
Paul wrote,
1 Corinthians 2:9 (Weymouth New Testament)
But--to use the words of Scripture--we speak of things which eye has not
seen nor ear heard, and which have never entered the heart of man: all
that God has in readiness for them that love Him.
What a shame it would be to miss out! They would have to face judgment,
instead of receiving great blessings and rewards. The scripture above,
Matthew 5:21-22, shows this, because the two things Jesus warned about,
to be angry with a brother, and to say to a brother, `You fool!' are not
very different. In one case, the offender is to face judgment, and in the
other, to be cast into Gehenna. The offences are similar, and so are the
consequences. Neither means "unending infernal torment," which is an idea
derived from pagan superstition, not the Bible.
>
> Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
> gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice
> lawlessness,
>
> Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be
> wailing and gnashing of teeth.
>
> Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart
> from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil
> and his angels:
>
> Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but
> the righteous into eternal life."
A
>
> Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
> you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to
> hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-
>
> Mark 9:44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
>
> According to Doug, these verses are to be ignored, they should not have
> been in the Bible or, it is up to him to determine if they are valid or
> not, as he demonstrates in his quote.
>
> "Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
> teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
> believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
> infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
> comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
> all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
> God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
> teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
> unending torment!
>
> WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
> GOD." (emphasis are mine)
Jesus said,
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
--
Doug
Doug
<xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote in article
<ifp262$v2c$1...@news.eternal-september.org>:
> "bear" <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:2m5vh69oq5b751hof...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 14:44:39 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>>>in article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>God rejoices over Jerusalem
>>>
>> Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
>> bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like.
>
> One more time for the moron: JIM JONES WAS A DISPENSATIONALIST! HE CAME
> FROM THE ADVENTIST BAPTIST CHURCH, WHICH LATER BECAME THE SEVENTH DAY
> ADVENTISTS.
>
> HE'S ONE OF YOUR FATHERS, idiot.
>
> Ike
Actually, Seventh Day Adventists are Historicists, not
Dispensationalists.
--
Doug
Doug
article <6cguh6lkpspeepu4f...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 08:14:51 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>>in article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>
>
>
>>Daniel said that Jerusalem will suffer a flood!
>>
> Perhaps Doug will eventually get enough gullible folks to follow his
> bogus religion then he can become another Jim Jones or the like. Yes, he
> quotes verses, so did Satan. How many do you have so far Doug, none?
>
> Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being, "I
> like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
> legitimate scripture". However, this verse, I do not like, nor do I
> agree with it, therefore, "It is ok if I change it to say what I want it
> to say, I completely ignore it, or, it was not intended to be included
> in the Bible".
>
> As an example of what I am getting at.
>
> Doug agrees with Ephesians 2:4,
>
> "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He
> loved us,"
>
> Therefore, he believes that it is a legitimate verse, just as it is
> written.
>
> OTOH, he does not like verses such as;
>
> Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was
> cast into the lake of fire.
>
> Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill
> the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body
> in hell.
The Greek has "Gehenna."
>
> Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
> gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice
> lawlessness,
>
> Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be
> wailing and gnashing of teeth.
>
> Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart
> from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil
> and his angels:
>
> Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but
> the righteous into eternal life."
>
> Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
> you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to
> hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-
>
> Mark 9:44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
>
> According to Doug, these verses are to be ignored, they should not have
> been in the Bible or, it is up to him to determine if they are valid or
> not, as he demonstrates in his quote.
>
> "Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
> teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
> believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
> infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
> comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
> all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
> God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
> teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
> unending torment!
>
> WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
> GOD." (emphasis are mine)
The phrase "everlasting torment" is nowhere found in the Bible. And when
Jesus referred to Gehenna, he referenced a known place, that has a
detailed history in the Old Testament, and which is even included in a
remarkable prophecy of Jeremiah. In Jeremiah's prophecy, the "valley of
dead bodies" will one day be "holy unto the Lord."
Instead of looking at these scriptures, Chuck appeals to the traditions
of men, and ancient pagan superstition. It is these superstitions that
Christ came to destroy!
Hebrews 2:14-15
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also
himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might
destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime
subject to bondage.
Both a "fear of death" and the "power of death" are mentioned in the
above scripture. Christ came to deliver those who are kept in bondage
because of the "fear of death." Who are they? Most of mankind! The fear
of death is increased greatly by superstition. Religions have exploited
this fear; but Christ and the true Gospel deliver us from it! The purpose
of God is not to condemn most people to unending infernal torment as some
deluded people think! They are in darkness, and this is the same darkness
that the prophet Joel talked about, when he said, "The sun shall be
turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and
terrible day of the LORD come." [Joel 2:31] Peter quoted this on the day
of Pentecost, in Acts 2. The sun is the gospel, which clothes the woman
in heaven in Revelation 12:1, and it is turned to darkness by the false
teachings and superstitions, such as the doctrine of the immortality of
the soul, and the idea of unending infernal torment of unbelievers. Those
who teach unending infernal torment are promoting that darkness! They are
enemies of the Gospel, which is Good News for all mankind!
Jesus spoke of a resurrection, people coming out of their graves; they
are not brought up from an infernal region of torment! And the scripture
says, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall
be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any
more pain: for the former things are passed away." [Revelation 21:4] How
can there be no more pain, or sorrow, or crying, if people know their
relatives and loved ones are suffering unending torment? That makes no
sense! Notice these scriptures, in Paul's letter to Timothy.
1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ
Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Sinners will be saved, Paul said, and that is why Jesus came.
1 Timothy 2:4-6
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the
man Christ Jesus Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in
due time.
Paul said God wants "all men" to be saved.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the
living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that
believe.
How can God be the "Saviour of all men" if some (or most, according to
many) are to be punished with unending infernal torment? Either God is
indeed the "Saviour of all men," or Paul must have been a liar!
Doug
article <3ql3i61bnhcsjtu22...@4ax.com>:
The word "hell" in the above verse is "Gehenna" in the Greek.
In the New Testament, the word Gehenna occurs 12 times. These are in
Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33, Mark 9:43, 9:45,
9:47, Luke 12:5, and James 3:6. They are mistranslated as "hell" in the
KJV and other English versions. In Weymouth's translation the word is
"Gehenna." "Gehenna" refers to the valley of Hinnom in the southern part
of Jerusalem.
Is Gehenna a symbol of hell? The translators of the Bible were influenced
by ancient pagan superstition.
For example, the phrase "damnation of hell" in the KJV for Matthew 23:33
is a mistranslation, that would be better rendered, the "judgment of
Gehenna," which can be interpreted as meaning being rejected from the
kingdom of God. See Young's Literal Translation, or the World English
Bible.
The idea of infernal torment of unbelievers was introduced by the rulers
in ancient Rome, as a means for controlling the people, through fear and
superstition.
For centuries, theologians have claimed Gehenna represents the place of
infernal torment of the souls of the wicked.
The valley of Hinnom has a detailed history in the Bible. Below is the
account provided in Easton's Bible Dictionary:
Gehenna: (originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of
Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the
idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2
Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards
became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the
dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were
cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time
became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense
it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33;
Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6,
the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing
"Gehenna" in the margin.
The sacrifice of children to Molech was proscribed in the law of Moses.
Leviticus 18:21
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech,
neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 20:2
Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the
children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that
giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the
people of the land shall stone him with stones.
Did Jesus refer to Gehenna as "the place of everlasting destruction,"
implying hell is a place of infernal torment, as the pagans believed?
I suggest Jesus was influenced more by what the law of Moses said, and by
the history of Gehenna recorded in the holy scriptures, and by what the
prophets wrote, than by all the traditions and superstitions of men. So
we should look in the scriptures for the significance of Gehenna, rather
than assume that human tradition and speculation is correct.
God will reconcile the world to himself:
Colossians 1:19-20
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to
reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things
in earth, or things in heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus
Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not
imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word
of reconciliation.
1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ
Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
> The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and
--
Doug
Doug
article <6bv8i6tk5js0iqgkc...@4ax.com>:
The word "hell" is better translated "Gehenna" which was a valley near
Jerusalem, where garbage was burnt up.
Consider the things that can result in one being thrown into Gehenna.
These include calling your brother a "fool"; not plucking out your eye,
when it causes offence; not cutting off your right hand, when it causes
offence; hypocrisy; and having an unruly tongue.
Compare with the things that according to Jesus, in Matthew 25:40-46,
disqualify people from entering into life: not feeding a hungry person;
not giving a drink to a thirsty person; not taking in a stranger; not
giving clothes to someone who is naked; and not visiting those who were
sick, or in prison.
According to many theologians, failure in the manner described above is
punished with everlasting infernal torment in hell! How unfair, and
unreasonable that would be! Does it make any sense? The penalty seems
out of proportion to the sin. But I suggest, that is not what Jesus
meant. Instead, when Jesus referred to Gehenna, it was symbolic of being
declared unfit for the kingdom of God. "Jerusalem," for Jesus,
represented the church, his bride, and his kingdom, the holy city of the
saints. Gehenna, the garbage dump of the earthly Jerusalem, represents
the spiritual condition of those who are rejected as unfit for the church
of Christ, and the kingdom.
One can be cast aside spiritually, and be outside of the kingdom of the
saints, in this present life, even when one is involved in the visible
church. This condition is portrayed by the Gentiles who occupy the outer
court of the temple in Revelation 11:2. The flaws that are listed above,
that can get a person thrown into Gehenna, depict sins against the spirit
of Christ.
The reference Jesus made in Mark 9:47 to plucking out one's eye should
not to be taken literally. I think he meant the "eye" figuratively, as in
the "mind's eye." One can "see" the scriptures from various points of
view. Consider the Mormon point of view; they "see" through the "eye" of
Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon. In the SDA church, people "see" with
the "eye" of Ellen G. White. Many "see" with the "eye" of Calvin, or the
"eye" of Jonathan Edwards (1703 - 1758), the "eye" of John N. Darby, etc.
Whatever "eye" it is that offends, we need to be willing to "pluck it
out," and follow Christ, or we risk being "cast into Gehenna," meaning
being rejected from Christ's kingdom. Some treasure as their "right hand"
the books of their favourite theologians; if any of these cause you to
stumble, cut them off; get rid of them!
The valley of Hinnom or Gehenna was a literal place, a garbage dump. For
one to be cast into it, meant being rejected from the holy city, which is
a figure of the kingdom of God and the church in the New Testament. And
so the references to Gehenna in the gospel accounts apply to Christians,
as a warning, about being rejected from the kingdom. John wrote:
Revelation 22:4-5,
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to
the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For
without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and
idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Randy was one of the most prolific posters in alt.christnet.christianlife.
But his sig, IMO, was not helpful to the gospel. Jesus died, to take away
our sins; he did not spend eternity suffering unending infernal torment
in hell. If that was the penalty of sin, wouldn't he need to do that, to
save us from it? He would still be down there!
--
Doug
bear
>On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:27:05 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <mpnbi6lif021d171g...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:18:17 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>>>in article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>Ted's problem is that he reads
The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
doctrine with it.
"Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
unending torment!
WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
GOD." (emphasis are mine)
The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and
bear
>
>The Weymouth New Testament translates:
>
The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
doctrine with it.
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
"I like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
legitimate scripture". However, this verse, I do not like, nor do I
agree with it, therefore, "It is ok if I change it to say what I want
it to say, I completely ignore it, or, it was not intended to be
included in the Bible".
As an example of what I am getting at.
Doug agrees with Ephesians 2:4,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which
He loved us,"
Therefore, he believes that it is a legitimate verse, just as it is
written.
OTOH, he does not like verses such as;
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who
practice lawlessness,
Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will
be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,
'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for
the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but
the righteous into eternal life."
Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to
hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-
Mark 9:44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not
quenched.'
According to Doug, these verses are to be ignored, they should not
have been in the Bible or, it is up to him to determine if they are
valid or not, as he demonstrates in his quote.
"Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
unending torment!
WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
GOD." (emphasis are mine)
The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and
bear
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 09:05:57 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <6cguh6lkpspeepu4f...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 08:14:51 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>The phrase "everlasting torment" is nowhere found in the Bible.
This is vintage Doug, he is trying to imply that I used the phrase
"everlasting torment" which is false and he knows very well that it
is, it is just one of his dishonest tactics which he must depend upon
because he cannot prove his bogus, cult doctrine.
The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
doctrine with it.
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
"I like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
legitimate scripture". However, this verse, I do not like, nor do I
agree with it, therefore, "It is ok if I change it to say what I want
it to say, I completely ignore it, or, it was not intended to be
included in the Bible".
As an example of what I am getting at.
Doug agrees with Ephesians 2:4,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which
He loved us,"
Therefore, he believes that it is a legitimate verse, just as it is
written.
OTOH, he does not like verses such as;
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and
bear
>On Mon, 03 Jan 2011 08:04:04 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <3ql3i61bnhcsjtu22...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 18:25:20 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>>>in article <1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>
>The word "hell" in the above verse is "Gehenna" in the Greek.
>
The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
doctrine with it.
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
"I like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
legitimate scripture". However, this verse, I do not like, nor do I
agree with it, therefore, "It is ok if I change it to say what I want
it to say, I completely ignore it, or, it was not intended to be
included in the Bible".
As an example of what I am getting at.
Doug agrees with Ephesians 2:4,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which
He loved us,"
Therefore, he believes that it is a legitimate verse, just as it is
written.
OTOH, he does not like verses such as;
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and
bear
>On Wed, 05 Jan 2011 08:17:26 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <6bv8i6tk5js0iqgkc...@4ax.com>:
>The word "hell" is better translated "Gehenna"
The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
doctrine with it.
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
"I like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
legitimate scripture". However, this verse, I do not like, nor do I
agree with it, therefore, "It is ok if I change it to say what I want
it to say, I completely ignore it, or, it was not intended to be
included in the Bible".
As an example of what I am getting at.
Doug agrees with Ephesians 2:4,
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which
He loved us,"
Therefore, he believes that it is a legitimate verse, just as it is
written.
OTOH, he does not like verses such as;
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was
cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill
the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and
body in hell.
Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and
Doug
article <g597i6l45p9b7lo1r...@4ax.com>:
Mark 9:43-48 (Weymouth New Testament)
If your hand should cause you to sin, cut it off: it would be better for
you to enter into Life maimed, than remain in possession of both your
hands and go away into Gehenna, into the fire which cannot be put out. Or
if your foot should cause you to sin, cut it off: it would be better for
you to enter into Life crippled, than remain in possession of both your
feet and be thrown into Gehenna. Or if your eye should cause you to sin,
tear it out. It would be better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God
half-blind than remain in possession of two eyes and be thrown into
Gehenna, where their worm does not die and the fire does not go out.
A subterranean place of infernal torment has no worms or maggots but
these are common in garbage dumps in the open where refuse is burnt, as
Gehenna was. Maggots turn into flies; they don't die as maggots.
Most theologians don't think that Jesus meant that the people who suffer
the fate that Jesus refers to get literally thrown into a garbage dump on
the south side of Jerusalem, but they assume this has to do with
something else. They take Gehenna as a metaphor, which they interpret as
"unending infernal torment." They assume that there is some infernal
region, either within the earth, as Dante said, or beyond the limits of
the universe as Milton claimed, where the souls of the wicked suffer
unending torment.
This place must have been created by God, as God created all things. But
on which day did he create it? Scripture does not say, and those who
promote such beliefs don't know. Was God really planning for such things
when he made mankind?
The problem is, the theologians and scholars have misinterpreted the
metaphor. Gehenna was not just any garbage dump. It had a long history,
and it is a place that was notorious for centuries. And it is discussed
many times in scripture. So its significance should be determined, not
from pagan superstition, but from scripture.
Gehenna is mentioned several times in the New Testament, but not once
does it have anything to do with torment. There are references to worms
that don't die, and fire that cannot be quenched, but nothing about souls
suffering torment. The worms that don't die are based on the prophecy of
Isaiah 66:24. Isaiah realized that a worm or maggot usually does not die,
but turns into a fly!
Gehenna was valley near Jerusalem, and in the New Testament, Jerusalem is
a figure or type of the church. The meaning that Jesus intended us to
understand by his references to "Gehenna" is obvious when one considers
that Jerusalem was a type of the holy city of the saints, the church.
Jesus referred to Jerusalem as "the city of the great King," Matthew
5:35. It is the "Jerusalem which is above," and "the mother of us all,"
in Galatians 4:26. It is "the city of the living God, the heavenly
Jerusalem," and "the general assembly and church of the firstborn," in
Hebrews 12:22-23. The valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, was where people in
the earthly Jerusalem disposed of their refuse. So the metaphor of
Gehenna represents the sorry fate of those who are rejected from the
kingdom of God, not unending infernal torment. Jesus gave many warnings,
that we should seek to avoid being rejected from his kingdom.
Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the
Son of man.
Gehenna represents the refuse and garbage that is cast out by the church
of God! And Jesus emphasized seeking the kingdom, and not being cast out
as unfit for the kingdom. He particularly warned against false doctrines,
and false teachers.
Those who hold to false doctrines, when Christ reveals the true meaning
of his word, might find themselves fighting against the Spirit of Christ!
John wrote, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world." [John 1:9] John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of
God, which taketh away the sin of the world." [John 1:29] Jesus said,
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto
me." [John 12:32] And, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy
laden, and I will give you rest." [Matthew 11:28]
The idea of God tormenting his own children forever is a wretched
superstition. Those who promote it misunderstand the words of Jesus. They
misrepresent what his message was about.
The fire that can't be quenched. I suggest, is the word of God, that
destroys all the false teachings and superstitions. Jeremiah wrote: "Is
not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that
breaketh the rock in pieces? Therefore, behold, I am against the
prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his
neighbour. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use
their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy
false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to
err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor
commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith
the LORD." [Jeremiah 23:29-32]
For centuries, false religious teachers, both Muslim and Christian, have
spread fear by means of the superstition of unending infernal torment of
unbelievers, a blasphemous doctrine, IMO.
That doctrine which is so precious to them, needs to be plucked out like
the eye that offends, that Jesus spoke of! And cut off like the right
hand that offends! It is contrary to the gospel of Christ.
Colossians 1:19-20
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to
reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things
in earth, or things in heaven.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus
Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not
imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word
of reconciliation.
>
--
Doug
Doug
article <hdguh6d3dbpqrais9...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:26:52 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
>>The name Jerusalem is associated with peace.
> According to Doug, these verses are to be ignored, they should not have
> been in the Bible or, it is up to him to determine if they are valid or
> not, as he demonstrates in his quote.
>
> "Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
> teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
> believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
> infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
> comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
> all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
> God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
> teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
> unending torment!
>
> WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
> GOD." (emphasis are mine)
The gospel of our salvation in Christ is good news for all.
Luke 3:6
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Every man will receive the light of Christ.
John 1:9
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the
world.
Jesus took away the sin of the world.
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb
of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The saints hope for a resurrection to life, but there is also a
resurrection to judgment.
John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in
the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have
done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil,
unto the resurrection of judgment.
In the judgment, men who have not known God will learn about Christ.
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every
man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh
unto me.
Jesus said, he would draw all men to himself. No doubt women too.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Acts 15:17
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles,
upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also
for the sins of the whole world.
Jesus is "the Saviour of the world."
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the
Saviour of the world.
All nations will worship him.
Revelation 15:4
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art
holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy
judgments are made manifest.
Doug
article <6lcei615l69dr568p...@4ax.com>:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 08:02:17 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 09:05:57 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>>in article <6cguh6lkpspeepu4f...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 08:14:51 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>The phrase "everlasting torment" is nowhere found in the Bible.
>
> This is vintage Doug, he is trying to imply that I used the phrase
> "everlasting torment" which is false and he knows very well that it is,
No, I was not implying that at all. I believe I quoted your post in full.
But if you don't believe in the absurd superstition of "everlasting
torment" I am delighted to hear of it! Why not come clean, and confirm
it? What was the point of the response that you posted so many times in
this thread if you don't believe in unending infernal torment of
unbelievers?
> it is just one of his dishonest tactics which he must depend upon
> because he cannot prove his bogus, cult doctrine.
Again, that is a false accusation.
>
> The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
> scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
> verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
> Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
> doctrine with it.
Again you presume too much. And more false accusations.
>
> Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being, "I
> like and agree with this verse just as it reads therefore, it is
> legitimate scripture". However, this verse, I do not like, nor do I
> agree with it, therefore, "It is ok if I change it to say what I want it
> to say, I completely ignore it, or, it was not intended to be included
> in the Bible".
>
> As an example of what I am getting at.
>
> Doug agrees with Ephesians 2:4,
>
> "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He
> loved us,"
>
> Therefore, he believes that it is a legitimate verse, just as it is
> written.
>
> OTOH, he does not like verses such as;
>
> Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was
> cast into the lake of fire.
Why make false accusations? On what basis do you claim I like Ephesians
2:4, but not Revelation 20:15? Do you have any evidence? Why commit
libel? Isn't illegal in your state?
>
> Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill
> the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body
> in hell.
Why make false accusations? On what basis do you claim I like Ephesians
2:4, but not Matthew 10:28? Do you have any evidence? Why commit libel?
Isn't illegal in your state?
I do prefer Weymouth's translation of it, "And do not fear those who kill
the body, but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to
destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
He leaves the original word "Gehenna" instead of "hell." Much more honest.
>
> Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will
> gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice
> lawlessness,
>
> Matthew 13:42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be
> wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Why make false accusations? On what basis do you claim I like Ephesians
2:4, but not Matthew 13:41-42? Do you have any evidence? Why commit
libel? Isn't illegal in your state?
>
> Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart
> from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil
> and his angels:
Why make false accusations? On what basis do you claim I like Ephesians
2:4, but not Matthew 25:46? Do you have any evidence? Why commit libel?
Isn't illegal in your state?
>
> Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but
> the righteous into eternal life."
Why make false accusations? On what basis do you claim I like Ephesians
2:4, but not Matthew 25:46? Do you have any evidence? Why commit libel?
Isn't illegal in your state?
I do prefer Weymouth's translation of it, "And these shall go away into
the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
I believe "Aionos" in the Greek can mean "age" and not necessarily
"eternal" as in the KJV.
>
> Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for
> you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to
> hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-
>
> Mark 9:44 where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'
Why make false accusations? On what basis do you claim I like Ephesians
2:4, but not Matthew 25:46? Do you have any evidence? Why commit libel?
Isn't illegal in your state?
I do prefer Weymouth's translation of it, "If your hand should cause you
to sin, cut it off: it would be better for you to enter into Life maimed,
than remain in possession of both your hands and go away into Gehenna,
into the fire which cannot be put out. Or if your foot should cause you
to sin, cut it off: it would be better for you to enter into Life
crippled, than remain in possession of both your feet and be thrown into
Gehenna."
Weymouth leaves the original word "Gehenna" in these verses instead of
"hell." Much more honest. There is too much superstition associated with
the word "hell."
>
> According to Doug, these verses are to be ignored, they should not have
> been in the Bible or, it is up to him to determine if they are valid or
> not, as he demonstrates in his quote.
Why make false accusations? What made you think I believe those verses
should be ignored?
>
> "Actually, it says all nations will be blessed through Christ. Many
> teach that no, it means only a tiny minority of the nations, those who
> believe the peculiar doctrines of their sect. The rest suffer unending
> infernal torment in hell! From looking at Randy's sig, and from his
> comment above, it seems Randy is one of those. They don't believe that
> all nations will be blessed through Christ! They limit that promise of
> God to "all nations who believe, not all the nations, as a whole," and
> teach that the vast majority of mankind is lost, and damned to suffer
> unending torment!
>
> WHAT A SHAME! THE TRUTH IS THAT *ALL MEN* WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF
> GOD." (emphasis are mine)
Luke 3:5-7
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be
brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways
shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Is this true, or not? Not only all men, but all women too, are included
here!
--
Doug
Doug
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:38:30 -0600, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:27:05 -0600, bear<tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>> article<mpnbi6lif021d171g...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:18:17 -0600, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear<tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>>>> in article<1c6ah6lii01fg0nhu...@4ax.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:00:05 -0600, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ted's problem is that he reads
>
>
> The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
> scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
> verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
> Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
> doctrine with it.
Ted seems unable to respond on topic, so I doubt he is capable of
the "discussion" of scripture that he fantasizes about.
--
Doug
bear
>bear wrote:
>> On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:38:30 -0600, Doug<t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:27:05 -0600, bear<tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>
>Ted seems unable to respond on topic, so I doubt he is capable of
>the "discussion" of scripture that he fantasizes about.
For a change Doug, why do you not back up your accusations, accept the
challenge to debate scripture verse by verse, we each agree to answer
all questions asked by the other with answers that can be proven with
unadulterated scripture, all quoted scripture must be pertinent to the
topic, no commentaries by dr donothing, just the Bible, then you can
prove what a phony that I am.
Gee, how could you pass up such an opportunity, here is your chance to
shut me up once and for all and, to prove that your doctrine can be
irrefutably proven with scripture.
You have tried ridicule, scorn, mocking, intimidation and what I
perceive as implied threats, which none have been successful, why not
try a debate?
Of course, we know that you will not accept such a challenge, why?
I have a theory....
You will not accept for the simple reason that you know without a
doubt that you cannot prove your cult doctrine from the Bible when you
are limited to how it actually reads and, if, you must answer
questions about all the verses that you discount or blatantly
mis-quote.
So go for it Doug, prove to everyone that you are not exactly as I
describe you. I am betting my lunch money that you will not, you have
refused to accept such a discussion for over two years and I do not
believe that you feel any more confident that you are capable of
defending your doctrine now.
Bear
bear
>On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:52:59 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <g597i6l45p9b7lo1r...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Tue, 04 Jan 2011 12:12:59 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:07:24 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote
>Mark 9:43-48 (Weymouth New Testament)
The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
doctrine with it.
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
According to Doug, these verses are to be ignored, they should not
bear
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 09:01:51 -0600, bear <tevan...@charter.net> wrote in
>article <hdguh6d3dbpqrais9...@4ax.com>:
>
>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:26:52 -0600, Doug <t...@sentex.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>
>The gospel of our salvation in Christ is good news for all.
>
The reason Doug refuses to engage in a verse-by-verse discussion of
scripture with me, where we each must answer all questions, with
verifiable answers from scripture, is because he does not believe the
Bible is the inspired word of God and he cannot support his cult
doctrine with it.
Doug applies a cafeteria-style approach to scripture and that being,
The danger of ones employing this tactic is that it can cast doubt and