ANCIENT MESSIAH'S TABLET
CENTRO ANTI-BLASFEMIA
Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
By ETHAN BRONNER
JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that
scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus
is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles,
especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the
dead after three days.
If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to
a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of
Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection
was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.
The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to
some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with
ink writings from that era — in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone.
It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to
columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is
faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate.
Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in
helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating
political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to
increase.
Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of
California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body
of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a
close reading of the Jewish history of his day.
“Some Christians will find it shocking — a challenge to the uniqueness
of their theology — while others will be comforted by the idea of it
being a traditional part of Judaism,” Mr. Boyarin said.
Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era
artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the
fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as the
concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some time
before the tablet’s contribution is fully assessed. It has been around
60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, and they continue
to generate enormous controversy regarding their authors and meaning.
The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank,
contain some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings
from before the first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key
books of the Bible, the scrolls describe a variety of practices and
beliefs of a Jewish sect at the time of Jesus.
How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about
the era are still strongly debated. For example, a question that
arises is whether the authors of the scrolls were members of a
monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A conference marking 60 years
since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on Sunday at the Israel
Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over whether it
speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar believes,
also will be discussed.
Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a
decade ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an
Israeli-Swiss collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an
Israeli scholar examined it closely a few years ago and wrote a paper
on it last year, interest began to rise. There is now a spate of
scholarly articles on the stone, with several due to be published in
the coming months.
“I couldn’t make much out of it when I got it,” said David Jeselsohn,
the owner, who is himself an expert in antiquities. “I didn’t realize
how significant it was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who
specializes in Hebrew writing, a few years ago. She was overwhelmed.
‘You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone,’ she told me.”
Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel
Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel,
Zechariah and Haggai.
Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an
expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died
in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more
than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to
the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the
shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late
first century B.C.
A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at
Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient
artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to
give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he
knew of no reason to doubt the stone’s authenticity.
It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of
Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the
stone, which Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed “Gabriel’s
Revelation,” also the title of their article. Mr. Knohl posited in a
book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus,
using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well
as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the world of
Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual evidence
from before Jesus.
When he read “Gabriel’s Revelation,” he said, he believed he saw what
he needed to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in
the latest issue of The Journal of Religion.
Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the
political atmosphere in Jesus’ day as an important explanation of that
era’s messianic spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish
rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so
the rise of a major Jewish independence fighter could take on
messianic overtones.
In Mr. Knohl’s interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied
on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander
in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian
Josephus. The writers of the stone’s passages were probably Simon’s
followers, Mr. Knohl contends.
The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as
a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines
19 through 21 of the tablet — “In three days you will know that evil
will be defeated by justice” — and other lines that speak of blood and
slaughter as pathways to justice.
To make his case about the importance of the stone, Mr. Knohl focuses
especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words “L’shloshet
yamin,” meaning “in three days.” The next word of the line was deemed
partially illegible by Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur, but Mr. Knohl, who
is an expert on the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the word is
“hayeh,” or “live” in the imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but
it is one in keeping with the era.
Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Mr. Knohl said he believed
that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, “In three
days you shall live, I, Gabriel, command you.”
To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says “Sar hasarin,”
or prince of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary
sources for the Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of “a prince of
princes,” Mr. Knohl contends that the stone’s writings are about the
death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days.
He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from
the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful
descendant of King David.
“This should shake our basic view of Christianity,” he said as he sat
in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is
a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of
Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. “Resurrection after three days
becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly
all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by
Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.”
Ms. Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered it
indeed likely that the key illegible word was “hayeh,” or “live.”
Whether that means Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is less
sure.
Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language
and emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew University,
said he spent a long time studying the text and considered it
authentic, dating from no later than the first century B.C. His 25-
page paper on the stone will be published in the coming months.
Regarding Mr. Knohl’s thesis, Mr. Bar-Asher is also respectful but
cautious. “There is one problem,” he said. “In crucial places of the
text there is lack of text. I understand Knohl’s tendency to find
there keys to the pre-Christian period, but in two to three crucial
lines of text there are a lot of missing words.”
Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University, said
that given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores of
articles and books, “Gabriel’s Revelation” and Mr. Knohl’s analysis
deserved serious attention. “Here we have a real stone with a real
text,” he said. “This is truly significant.”
Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the
messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a
savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept
at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes
numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say
such predictions must have been written in by later followers because
there was no such idea present in his day.
But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.
“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer
so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said.
“This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of
Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different
meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring
redemption to Israel.”
Mordecai
CENTRO ANTI-BLASFEMIA wrote:
Thanks,
I knew this was on the news and wished to read the details.
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
Mary Hogan
Boy, this will keep me busy for a while and perhaps out of trouble.
I'm also studying
http://www.hartman.org.il/SHInews_View_Eng.asp?Article_Id=124 Israel Knohl
article related to it.
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Linda Lee
wrote:
Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and
he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will
raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his
going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as
the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&...
Linda Lee
Mat 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of
Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts,
and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of
David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and
besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the LOST
SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the
children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs
which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is
thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was
made whole from that very hour.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&...
Linda Lee
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and
all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and
the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that
it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness
arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as
calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes
under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith
the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded
unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming
of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite
the earth with a curse.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&...
Linda Lee
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper
in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace
shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the PRINCE OF
PRINCES; but he shall be broken without hand.
> so his blood will be ...
>
> read more »
Linda Lee
Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the
LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a
root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we
shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and
acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he
was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised
for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and
with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one
to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not
his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep
before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall
declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the
living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
Isa 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in
his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in
his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to
grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see
his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD
shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be
satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and
he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out
his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and
he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
> so his blood will be ...
>
> read more »
Mary Hogan
"Linda Lee" <lyndal...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:b9e5d8cd-10a8-4498...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Linda said:
Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and
he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
MH:
This is the Israelites speaking. Radak says it was realized in Isaiah's
day. Malbim says that this is what the Jewish people will say in their
deepest anguish and what Hashem will respond.
Linda:
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will
raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
MH:
This is difficult to translate. Where are we when we are revived and why
not just raise us up immediately? Ibn Ezra and Daas Mikra say that this is
telling them that the prophecy was near at hand. Rashi says this could
refer to the Temples, the two that were destroyed (not in Hosea's time) and
the Third in the future. Radak and Metzudos say that it could be the two
exiles of Egypt and Babylon and then the final, long long present exile.
This is a very interesting study. And makes you think about these tablets
then in a different light.
According to lines 18-21 in this Chazon Gavriel, Israel Knohl translates
when evil is broken by righteousness. Shekker is defeated by Emes,
falsehood by Truth. Hmmm. I'm having trouble with yamin here, shelishit
yamin. I'm used to yamin being "right" as opposed to "left." Like Genesis
24:49 and Numbers 20:17 and many other locations. Why not hi yom? This
could be a Dikduk problem of immaturity for me.
I like this Hosea, it saves me time.
Linda:
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his
going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as
the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
MH:
Hos 6:3 We will then be of one mind in our pursuit of knowledge of God,
perceiving it with clarity like the dawn. It will come to us like rains,
like the spring rains that satiate the earth.
This is the goal of the antimissionaries here. It is also a proof that this
couldn't have been J, because this prophecy was not fulfilled after his
three day trip.
When the Jewish People in particular pursue the knowledge of Hashem with
sincerity. THIS WHAT I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT!!!
At this point they will perceive His glory clearly. This has never
happened. Radak says it is like one who sees the breaking of the dawn and
is sure the sun will soon rise.
Linda Lee
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God
unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the
house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that
art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among
women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and
cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast
found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring
forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the
Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father
David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of
his kingdom there shall be no end.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&...
Linda Lee
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast
down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon
them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his
sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by
reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and
it practised, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto
that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision
concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred
days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Dan 8:15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the
vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before
me as the appearance of a man.
Dan 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which
called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was
afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son
of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my
face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in
the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end
shall be.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&...
Mary Hogan
Linda posted:
Mat 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of
Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts,
and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of
David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
MH:
Where in Torah did anything like this ever happen, Linda. No where. The
Rabbis teach that if it isn't found in Torah it is probably false, or and
admixture which is worse. This man was obcessed with demons. I never once
saw Abraham worried about demons, nor David, nor Moses, they knew that
Hashem was in control of everything.
Linda Posted:
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and
besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the LOST
SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL.
MH:
This is rudeness and coldness. What about the Elisha and Shunnamite woman.
This shows you clearly there is something wrong with this fellow's thinking.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
MH:
I cannot believe you can read this and not see how much this fellow loved
himself.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the
children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
MH:
Elisha did not treat the Shunnamite woman with such disrespect. If you can
follow a man like this I have to question your ability to understand what
you are reading.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs
which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is
thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was
made whole from that very hour.
MH:
Great in faith why? Did she mention Ha Kodesh Baruch Hu? No, she just
worship this fellow. Believe me there are many learnings about shadim and
mazikim who are fully capable to do what this fellow did, but you don't want
to go there ever.
Linda Lee
FROM: The New York Times - July 6, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=print
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From: CENTRO ANTI-BLASFEMIA <eldomobarl...@alice.it>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Mon, Jul 7 2008 10:00 am
Subject: ANCIENT MESSIAH'S TABLET
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Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and
all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and
the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that
it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness
arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as
calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes
under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith
the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded
unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming
of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite
the earth with a curse.
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast
Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is
an
expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who
died
in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more
than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to
the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the
shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late
first century B.C.
A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at
Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient
artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined
to
give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he
knew of no reason to doubt the stone’s authenticity.
It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of
Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the
stone, which Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed “Gabriel’s
Revelation,” also the title of their article.
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God
unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the
house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that
art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among
women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and
cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast
found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring
forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the
Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father
David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of
his kingdom there shall be no end.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper
in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace
shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of
princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from
the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful
descendant of King David.
“This should shake our basic view of Christianity,” he said as he sat
in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he
is
a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor
of
Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. “Resurrection after three days
becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly
all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by
Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.”
Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and
he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will
raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his
going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as
the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
Mat 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of
Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts,
and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of
David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and
besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost
sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the
children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs
which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is
thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was
made whole from that very hour.
FROM: The New York Times - July 6, 2008
Linda Lee
> Linda Lee wrote:
> > FROM: The New York Times - July 6, 2008
>
> > View profile
> > More options Jul 7, 10:00 am
> > Newsgroups: alt.messianic
> > From: CENTRO ANTI-BLASFEMIA <eldomobarl...@alice.it>
> > Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 07:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
> > Local: Mon, Jul 7 2008 10:00 am
> > Subject: ANCIENT MESSIAH'S TABLET
> > Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | View thread | Show
> > original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
>
>
> > Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
> > By ETHAN BRONNER
>
> > JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that
> > scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus
> > is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles,
> > especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the
> > dead after three days.
>
Yes, it has been translated, and Hebrew language script scholars and
Hebrew archaeologists consider it authentic. In fact no one involved
in studying it doubts its authenticity. What is controversial is what
it is going to mean and what effect it will have.
One thing it definitely proves is that at least one sect of the Jews
used to believe in a suffering Messiah, and this casts doubt on their
modern interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures, which others claim
support the same idea.
cactus
Do you have a link or citation for the translation? English much preferred!
Rod
Is the translation available as of now ? I'd like very much to
know the story on the tablet. Perhaps the tablet may contain the
proof I've asked for ? I don't like getting my hopes up, but this
is exciting !
Thanks Linda. If you find out more, can you post a link please ?
Rod
Sam Taylor
hills of Indiana.
Just because something is true, you do not have to believe it.
Truth can exist without your knowledge, or Permissions.
Just because somebody writes it, it is not necessarily true.
Truth is and does not need You to qualify it.
Something May be true but few may not know, or approve of it.
Truth may be to You a goal, but You might not make it, in your
lifetime, but in the time of life it might be gained.
searching for Truth is a great hobby, but you should not obsess over
it.
Linda Lee
There was one translation that was supposed to be on an official
Hebrew archaeology website, but I waited 20 minutes yesterday for it
to load and it didn't - maybe the website was experiencing problems
yesterday. I'll find it and try it again, and assuming I can access
it, I will post it here if it's different than the following one.
I am not sure if this is accurate of course, but I found this
translation of the "Gabriel's Revelation" stone (from another website
other than the New York Times' official website or the one cited in
the original post on the Ancient Messiah's Tablet post above) - from
http://www.xanga.com/JB_Fidei_Defensor/634681021/the-gabriel-revelation.html
“GABRIEL'S REVELATION” - TRANSLATION
Translation (Semitic sounds in caps and\or italics)
Column A
(Lines 1-6 are unintelligible)
7. [… ]the sons of Israel …[…]…
8. […]… […]…
9. [… ]the word of yhw[h …]…[…]
10. […]… I\you asked …
11. yhwh, you ask me. Thus said the Lord of Hosts:
12. […]… from my(?) house, Israel, and I will tell the greatness(es?)
of Jerusalem.
13. [Thus] said yhwh, the Lord of Israel: Behold, all the nations are
14. … against(?)\to(?) Jerusalem and …,
15. [o]ne, two, three, fourty(?) prophets(?) and the returners(?),
16. [and] the Hasidin(?). My servant, David, asked from before
Ephraim(?)
17. [to?] put the sign(?) I ask from you. Because He said, (namely,)
18. [y]hwh of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: …
19. sanctity(?)\sanctify(?) Israel! In three days you shall know,
that(?)\for(?) He said,
20. (namely,) yhwh the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: The evil
broke (down)
21. before justice. Ask me and I will tell you what 22this bad 21plant
is,
22. lwbnsd/r/k (=? [To me? in libation?]) you are standing, the
messenger\angel. He
23. … (= will ordain you?) to Torah(?). Blessed be the Glory of yhwh
the Lord, from
24. his seat. “In a little while”, qyTuT (=a brawl?\ tiny?) it is,
“and I will shake the
25. … of? heaven and the earth”. Here is the Glory of yhwh the Lord of
26. Hosts, the Lord of Israel. These are the chariots, seven,
27. [un]to(?) the gate(?) of Jerusalem, and the gates of Judah, and …
for the
sake of
28. … His(?) angel, Michael, and to all the others(?) ask\asked
29. …. Thus He said, yhwh the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of
30. Israel: One, two, three, four, five, six,
31. [se]ven, these(?) are(?) His(?) angel …. 'What is it', said the
blossom(?)\diadem(?)
32. …[…]… and (the?) … (= leader?/ruler?), the second,
33. … Jerusalem…. three, in\of the greatness(es?) of
34. […]…[…]…
35. […]…, who saw a man … working(?) and […]…
36. that he … […]… from(?) Jerusalem(?)
37. … on(?) … the exile(?) of …,
38. the exile(?) of …, Lord …, and I will see
39. …[…] Jerusalem, He will say, yhwh of
40. Hosts, …
41. […]… that will lift(?) …
42. […]… in all the
43. […]…
44. […]…
Column B
(Lines 45-50 are unintelligible)
51. Your people(?)\with you(?) …[…]
52. … the [me]ssengers(?)\[a]ngels(?)[ …]…
53. on\against His/My people. And …[…]…
54. [… ]three days(?). This is (that) which(?) …[… ]He(?)
55. the Lord(?)\these(?)[ …]…[…]
56. see(?) …[…]
57. closed(?). The blood of the slaughters(?)\sacrifices(?) of
Jerusalem. For He said,
yhwh of Hos[ts],
58. the Lord of Israel: For He said, yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of
59. Israel: …
60. […]… me(?) the spirit?\wind of(?) …
61. …[…]…
62. in it(?) …[…]…[…]
63. …[…]…[…]
64. …[…]… loved(?)/… …[…]
65. The three saints of the world\eternity from\of …[…]
66. […]… peace he? said, to\in you we trust(?) …
67. Inform him of the blood of this chariot of them(?) …[…]
68. Many lovers He has, yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …
69. Thus He said, (namely,) yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …:
70. Prophets have I sent to my people, three. And I say
71. that I have seen …[…]…
72. the place for the sake of(?) David the servant of yhwh[ …]…[…]
73. the heaven and the earth. Blessed be …[…]
74. men(?). “Showing mercy unto thousands”, … mercy […].
75. Three shepherds went out to?/of? Israel …[…].
76. If there is a priest, if there are sons of saints …[…]
77. Who am I(?), I (am?) Gabri’el the …(=angel?)… […]
78. You(?) will save them, …[…]…
79. from before You, the three si[gn]s(?), three …[….]
80. In three days …, I, Gabri’el …[?],
81. the Prince of Princes, …, narrow holes(?) …[…]…
82. to/for … […]… and the …
83. to me(?), out of three - the small one, whom(?) I took, I,
Gabri’el.
84. yhwh of Hosts, the Lord of(?)[ Israel …]…[….]
85. Then you will stand …[…]…
86. …\
87. in(?) … eternity(?)/… \
\
Linda Lee
>
> - Show quoted text -
There was one translation that was supposed to be on an official
Hebrew archaeology website, but yesterday I waited 20 minutes for it
cactus
until then.
Linda Lee
article. The alleged translation of "Gabriel's Revelation" is at
bottom of post.
July 6, 2008
Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection
By ETHAN BRONNER
JERUSALEM —
A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that
scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of
Jesus
is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles,
especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the
dead after three days.
that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, “In
three
FROM: The New York Times - July 6, 2008
The following is from BIBLICAL ARCHEOLOGICAL REVIEW at
http://www.bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp
“A New Dead Sea Scroll in Stone?
Does a “Dead Sea Scroll in stone” cast new light on early Jewish and
Christian views of the messiah? That is the question raised by an
intriguing ancient text, a question now being debated in newspapers,
web sites and blogs.
The text, called “Gabriel’s Vision” by Ada Yardeni, the Israeli
scholar who first published it, is written in ink on stone and dates
to about the late first century B.C. and early first century A.D. The
text first came to wide attention when our print publication, Biblical
Archaeology Review published Yardeni’s “A New Dead Sea Scroll in
Stone?” in its January/February 2008 issue (Yardeni pointed out that
had the text been written on leather, she would have thought of it as
another Dead Sea Scroll fragment).
“Gabriel’s Vision” consists of 87 lines, divided into two columns. The
text is written in the first person, apparently by someone named
Gabriel, and contains numerous Biblical phrases. It is an apocalyptic
text and seems to have been written by a supporter of the Davidic
dynasty. You can read Yardeni’s BAR article by clicking on the link
above and you can also see her transcription of the Hebrew text and
her English translation.
But now the story has taken on a new twist. A major New York Times
article (July 6, 2008) described research by Hebrew University textual
scholar Israel Knohl, which claims that “Gabriel’s Vision” provides
important new insights into the early Jewish and Christian concepts of
the messiah. A more complete article tracking Knohl’s research—by the
man himself—will be published in the September/October 2008 issue of
Biblical Archaeology Review.
Knohl looks at the history of Jewish and Christian messianism and
explores their similarities and differences. The new stone Dead Sea
Scroll opens up a new chapter in the history of this relationship,
according to Knohl.
In this pre-Christian Jewish text, he finds references to two
different concepts of the messiah—one, the Messiah son of David; and
the other, the Messiah son of Joseph (Ephraim). The return of the
messiah of David would involve a military victory. Indeed, the Davidic
messiah will institute the messianic age with a “day of battle.” He
will make his enemies “a footstool.” The Messiah son of David is a
triumphal messiah. Ephraim, or the Messiah son of Joseph, is a very
different kind of messiah and reflects a new kind of messianism. This
kind of messianism involves suffering and death. In the new Dead Sea
Scroll in stone, Knohl sees a messiah who suffered, died and rose.
Quoting the Gospels, Knohl finds that Jesus himself rejects the
concept of the militant Messiah son of David.
Also in the stone Dead Sea Scroll, an archangel orders someone to
arise from the dead in three days. Although the text is difficult, the
setting clearly reflects death and bloodshed.
Watch for Knohl’s full article, “The Messiah Son of Joseph: ‘Gabriel’s
Revelation and the Birth of a New Messianic Model,” in the September/
October 2008 BAR, out in mid-August. It will include the full text of
the stone Dead Sea Scroll, plus Professor Knohl’s reconstructions.”
Mail Man
>
> >> Do you have a link or citation for the translation? English much
preferred!
>
Try this link from Biblical Archaeology Review's (BAR) online site:
http://bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp
Contains some background on Ada Yardeni's work on the tablet, as well as
some background on an upcoming BAR article by Isreal Knohl concerning
further studies of this subject. Also contains links to Yardeni's
translations, both Hebrew and english.
Rod
Very interesting ! Thanks Linda .
Linda Lee
Good Lord! I didn't mean to post that several times; Google was acting
up yesterday and I thought it wasn't posting.
Today I received an email from the archaeological website (not a
Hebrew one like I thought), but from the Biblical Archaeology Society
with the text that wouldn't load on their website. It is the version
translated by Ada Yardeni, the person mentioned in the New York Times
article. It appears to be the same one, but I haven't compared every
line. This one is safer though.
GABRIEL'S REVELATION (on the MESSIAH STONE - translated by Ada
Yardeni)
Translation (Semitic sounds in caps and\or italics)
Column A
(Lines 1-6 are unintelligible)
7. [… ]the sons of Israel …[…]…
8. […]… […]…
9. [… ]the word of YHW[H …]…[…]
10. […]… I\you asked …
11. YHWH, you ask me. Thus said the Lord of Hosts:
12. […]… from my(?) house, Israel, and I will tell the greatness(es?)
of Jerusalem.
13. [Thus] said YHWH, the Lord of Israel: Behold, all the nations are
14. … against(?)\to(?) Jerusalem and …,
15. [o]ne, two, three, fourty(?) prophets(?) and the returners(?),
16. [and] the Hasidin(?). My servant, David, asked from before
Ephraim(?)
17. [to?] put the sign(?) I ask from you. Because He said, (namely,)
18. [Y]HWH of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: …
19. sanctity(?)\sanctify(?) Israel! In three days you shall know,
that(?)\for(?) He said,
20. (namely,) YHWH the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of Israel: The evil
broke (down)
21. before justice. Ask me and I will tell you what 22this bad 21plant
is,
22. lwbnsd/r/k (=? [To me? in libation?]) you are standing, the
messenger\angel. He
23. … (= will ordain you?) to Torah(?). Blessed be the Glory of YHWH
the Lord, from
24. his seat. “In a little while”, qyTuT (=a brawl?\ tiny?) it is,
“and I will shake the
25. … of? heaven and the earth”. Here is the Glory of YHWH the Lord of
26. Hosts, the Lord of Israel. These are the chariots, seven,
27. [un]to(?) the gate(?) of Jerusalem, and the gates of Judah, and …
for the
sake of
28. … His(?) angel, Michael, and to all the others(?) ask\asked
29. …. Thus He said, YHWH the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of
30. Israel: One, two, three, four, five, six,
31. [se]ven, these(?) are(?) His(?) angel …. 'What is it', said the
blossom(?)\diadem(?)
32. …[…]… and (the?) … (= leader?/ruler?), the second,
33. … Jerusalem…. three, in\of the greatness(es?) of
34. […]…[…]…
35. […]…, who saw a man … working(?) and […]…
36. that he … […]… from(?) Jerusalem(?)
37. … on(?) … the exile(?) of …,
38. the exile(?) of …, Lord …, and I will see
39. …[…] Jerusalem, He will say, YHWH of
40. Hosts, …
41. […]… that will lift(?) …
42. […]… in all the
43. […]…
44. […]…
Column B
(Lines 45-50 are unintelligible)
51. Your people(?)\with you(?) …[…]
52. … the [me]ssengers(?)\[a]ngels(?)[ …]…
53. on\against His/My people. And …[…]…
54. [… ]three days(?). This is (that) which(?) …[… ]He(?)
55. the Lord(?)\these(?)[ …]…[…]
56. see(?) …[…]
57. closed(?). The blood of the slaughters(?)\sacrifices(?) of
Jerusalem. For He said,
YHWH of Hos[ts],
58. the Lord of Israel: For He said, YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of
59. Israel: …
60. […]… me(?) the spirit?\wind of(?) …
61. …[…]…
62. in it(?) …[…]…[…]
63. …[…]…[…]
64. …[…]… loved(?)/… …[…]
65. The three saints of the world\eternity from\of …[…]
66. […]… peace he? said, to\in you we trust(?) …
67. Inform him of the blood of this chariot of them(?) …[…]
68. Many lovers He has, YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …
69. Thus He said, (namely,) YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of Israel …:
70. Prophets have I sent to my people, three. And I say
71. that I have seen …[…]…
72. the place for the sake of(?) David the servant of YHWH[ …]…[…]
73. the heaven and the earth. Blessed be …[…]
74. men(?). “Showing mercy unto thousands”, … mercy […].
75. Three shepherds went out to?/of? Israel …[…].
76. If there is a priest, if there are sons of saints …[…]
77. Who am I(?), I (am?) Gabri’el the …(=angel?)… […]
78. You(?) will save them, …[…]…
79. from before You, the three si[gn]s(?), three …[….]
80. In three days …, I, Gabri’el …[?],
81. the Prince of Princes, …, narrow holes(?) …[…]…
82. to/for … […]… and the …
83. to me(?), out of three - the small one, whom(?) I took, I,
Gabri’el.
84. YHWH of Hosts, the Lord of(?)[ Israel …]…[….]
85. Then you will stand …[…]…
86. …\
87. in(?) … eternity(?)/… \
\
I also found this article from the BIBLICAL ARCHEOLOGICAL REVIEW at
http://www.bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp
From - http://www.bib-arch.org/news/dss-in-stone-news.asp
BAR's website is http://www.bib-arch.org/
Linda Lee
You're welcome, Rod. I'm sure there will be lots of articles and
controversy surrounding this now that it has been in the New York
times. It's amazing they are finding all of this type of thing in this
century since Israel was restored. Seem to confirm knowledge
increasing in the endtimes, which is in the Scriptures in Daniel's
chapter on the Messiah (see at bottom).
I saw one person on the comments on the Biblical Archaeological Review
website postulate that GABRIEL'S REVELATION is THE book mentioned
above in Dan. 12:4, and I think it may certainly be a possibility.
Perhaps more archaeological finds will turn up with the same text, but
more legible.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince
which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a
time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to
that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every
one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall
awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting
contempt.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the
firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for
ever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book,
even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge
shall be increased.
.
cactus
Regards
Linda Lee
P.S. - That this is the book Daniel was told to seal until the
endtimes is believable because it was Gabriel who gave Daniel the
revelation in Daniel's dream/vision:
Dan. 8:16 "And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which
called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision."
Dan. 9:21 "Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel,
whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly
swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation."
Al Smith
Huh? "Narrow holes?" "The small one I took?" Seems to be talking
about three something -- three shepherds, three saints (does Judaism
even have saints?) In "three days you shall know?" What is this,
some sort of three fetish? And off-hand, I don't see any text
referring to a Messiah that will rise from the dead. Did I miss it?
-Al-
Linda Lee
Linda Lee
How about three wise men? Messiah rose in three days.
Saints (i.e. holy ones) are mentioned in many places in the OT:
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and
prevailed against them; (This correlates to the same concept in
Revelation).
It doesn't say a messiah, but they think it is described. Hopefully
another more complete copy of Gabriel's Revelation will turn up soon.
Al, you really ought to download e-sword, which has many free bible
versions available; it would make your search much easier. They have
lexicons, concordances, commentaries, and many other things, also
free, and downloading about 20 items to the basic part only takes
about 20 minutes.
wax
"Linda Lee" <lyndal...@juno.com> wrote
>Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;
>and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:
>and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of
>hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
>Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of
>righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth,
>and grow up as calves of the stall.
>Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be
>ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
>saith the LORD of hosts.
>Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I
>commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes
>and judgments.
>Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the
>coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
>Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
>and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and
>smite the earth with a curse.
Linda,
You have inserted into the text several passages which were appropriate to
the article, including an excerpt from Malachi. We have already discussed
the authenticity of Daniel, and I have expressed my opinions upon the
interpretation of Isaiah and the reliability of Luke as a historian. The
book of Malachi is different. I do not challenge its authenticity, but
there are several questions about it which should be considered.
The first question: Who is Malachi?
Traditionally, historical writings such as the Pentateuch, Joshua, Judges,
and others were written anonymously. On the other hand, prophetic books,
such as Malachi, were written in the name of the prophet. Unfortunately we
have no reference to a prophet named Malachi. Although it could be a
proper name, the word itself merely means "my messenger" and is translated
that way in verse 3:1. In verse 1:1 the LXX translates it as "his
messenger".
This presents us with the unusual problem of having two "messengers". The
first is the individual whom God reveled the revelation through (Malachi
1:1), and there is the messenger which God is sending (Malachi 3:1.)
When was Malachi written?
It is agreed that the author of Malachi was written after the return from
exile. The temple appears to have been rebuilt, and the political situation
suggests to most scholars a date of around 450 b.c.e. About 100 years after
Ezra.
What was the purpose of the book?
Isaiah 49-54 had promised prosperity and joy following the returns of the
exiles. But as we see in Malachi, this did not happen. The author of
Malachi throws the blame on the people and the priesthood. The people do
not make proper sacrifices (1:7,) the priests themselves do not honor God's
name (2:2.)
In response God promises to send "my messenger" to clear the way. (3:1.)
The appearance of the messenger would be followed by the fulfillment of
Isaiah's prophecies. In the final chapter the author identifies the
messenger he is sending as "Elijah the prophet" (4:5.) Christian tradition
identifies this with John the Baptist who is supposed to be the same Elijah
the prophet who did not die, but went up to heaven in a windstorm (2 Kings
2:14.)
Is the Christian interpretation correct?
Verses 1:2-5 indicates that the author of Malachi is describing the events
and situation which was current at the time of his writing. If true, then
the reasonable interpretation would be that he was making a prophecy which
he expected to be fulfilled in his own day (1:5 "Your eyes will see it.")
There is another Elijah in the Bible besides the one mentioned in 1 & 2
Kings. Ezra lists some one named Elijah in his list of the descendants of
priests who had taken foreign wives. Personal names often ran in families.
Therefore it is probable that other Elijahs lived at the time of the
author.of Malachi.
The problem of the two messengers and the anonymity of the text resolves
itself if we allow that the author himself was named Elijah, and that he is
referring to himself in verse 3:1. This gives a completely different
interpretation to Malachi, but one which is probably the right one.
--Wax
Linda Lee
> "Linda Lee" <lyndalee8...@juno.com> wrote
>
>
>
> >Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;
> >and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:
> >and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of
> >hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
> >Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of
> >righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth,
> >and grow up as calves of the stall.
> >Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be
> >ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
> >saith the LORD of hosts.
> >Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I
> >commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes
> >and judgments.
> >Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the
> >coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
> >Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
> >and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and
> >smite the earth with a curse.
>
> Linda,
>
> You have inserted into the text several passages which were appropriate to
> the article, including an excerpt from Malachi.
!!!!! You never cease to surprise me. I thought I'd have an argument
on my hands from you. Darn! (Just kidding ...sort of. You're a
workout sometimes. I like that.) Actually I'm glad you agree with
this in particular. I hope they find more copies of Gabriel's
Revelation soon. It could be stored away somewhere and be brought out
because of the recent attention given to this one. I'm very interested
to see the whole of it.
I will have to examine what you say here, so I can see what you mean,
especially concerning your interpretation of Malachi applying to the
article on 'Gabriel's Revelation'. I have to head on out right now,
life has been too busy lately. I am pretty fascinated and excited by
this find. It's the best thing I have heard in a long time. :-)
By the way, I wonder where Suzanne went. I am worried she hasn't
posted since May I think, and she didn't reply to my email to her,
which is unusual. I think she said she was 68 at one time... I do
believe she has the Holy Spirit like she said because she told me God
told her to leave me alone about Paul, and that I was just trying to
get people to read the Bible. To me, (especially since she accepts
Paul) that confirms I am right about Paul's role. And she was exactly
right about my motivation.
>
> --Wax
Al Smith
> Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and
> prevailed against them; (This correlates to the same concept in
> Revelation).
There are holy men and woman, and there are saints. But all holy men
and women are not saints. The Hebrew word "hasid" does not equal
"saint." I suppose the Catholic Church can declare a Jew to be a
saint, but before the time of Christ, there were no Hebrew saints,
only Hebrew holy men (the holy women were mostly ignored).
This tablet was written on (if it is genuine) before Christianity.
Saints are a Christian phenomenon. Hebrews before the birth of Jesus
can be back-dated into sainthood by the popes, but before the
Christian churches existed, they were not saints. Sure, there are
Buddhist "saints" but they are not really saints, they are holy
persons who are called saints in a generic sense.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint
"The term saint is used within Christianity, with definitions
varying by denomination, but English-language publications will
sometimes use saint to describe a revered person from another
religion. The word itself means “holy” and is derived from the Latin
sanctus. The concept originates in early Greek Christian literature
with the use of the word hagios (Greek ????? meaning “holy” or “holy
one”) and in the New Testament, where it is used to describe the
followers of Jesus of Nazareth."
Sure, "Other religions also recognize certain individuals as having
particular holiness or enlightenment," but since they are not
Christians, these holy individuals are not saints, in the strict
sense of the term.
-Al-
Linda Lee
>
>
>
> >Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;
> >and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble:
> >and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of
> >hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
> >Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of
> >righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth,
> >and grow up as calves of the stall.
> >Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be
> >ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this,
> >saith the LORD of hosts.
> >Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I
> >commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes
> >and judgments.
> >Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the
> >coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
> >Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
> >and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and
> >smite the earth with a curse.
>
> Linda,
>
> You have inserted into the text several passages which were appropriate to
> the authenticity of Daniel, and I have expressed my opinions upon the
> interpretation of Isaiah and the reliability of Luke as a historian. The
> there are several questions about it which should be considered.
>
> The first question: Who isMalachi?
> Traditionally, historical writings such as the Pentateuch, Joshua, Judges,
> and others were written anonymously. On the other hand, prophetic books,
> have no reference to a prophet namedMalachi. Although it could be a
> proper name, the word itself merely means "my messenger" and is translated
> that way in verse 3:1. In verse 1:1 the LXX translates it as "his
> messenger".
>
> This presents us with the unusual problem of having two "messengers". The
> first is the individual whom God reveled the revelation through (Malachi
> 1:1), and there is the messenger which God is sending (Malachi3:1.)
KJV:
Mal 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi
[Malachi/my messenger].
KJV:
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger ['malak'/my messenger,
angel], and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye
seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the
covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of
hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand
when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers'
soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he
shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that
they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant
unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
But Malachi is the word being translated in Mal. 1:1, and 'malak' is
the word being translated in Mal. 3:1, although they are both from the
same root word. Since Malachi means 'my messenger, wasn't the
Septuagint wrong to translate it "his messenger" rather than 'my
messenger' in Mal. 3:1?
Mal. 3:2 is reminiscent of Christ i.e. God as the "consuming fire".
And isn't the prophet speaking as God in Mal. 3:1, speaking of his
future incarnation ("the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to
his temple")? I say that he is speaking AS God because of the previous
verse, Mal. 2:17, "Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye
say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth
evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or,
Where is the God of judgment?"
Mal. 3:3-4 is also consistent with the NT message, as in Revelation
Chapter Seven wherein 12,000 from each Israelite tribe are 'sealed'
and worship God as Christ.
>
> When wasMalachiwritten?
> It is agreed that the author ofMalachiwas written after the return from
> exile. The temple appears to have been rebuilt, and the political situation
> suggests to most scholars a date of around 450 b.c.e. About 100 years after
> Ezra.
>
> What was the purpose of the book?
> Isaiah 49-54 had promised prosperity and joy following the returns of the
> exiles. But as we see inMalachi, this did not happen. The author ofMalachithrows the blame on the people and the priesthood. The people do
> not make proper sacrifices (1:7,) the priests themselves do not honor God's
> name (2:2.)
>
> In response God promises to send "my messenger" to clear the way. (3:1.)
> The appearance of the messenger would be followed by the fulfillment of
> Isaiah's prophecies. In the final chapter the author identifies the
> messenger he is sending as "Elijah the prophet" (4:5.)
> Christian tradition
> identifies this with John the Baptist who is supposed to be the same Elijah
> the prophet who did not die, but went up to heaven in a windstorm (2 Kings
> 2:14.)
According to the Messiah: Matt. 11:14 "And if ye will receive it,
this is Elias [Elijah], which was for to come."
>
> Is the Christian interpretation correct?
> Verses 1:2-5 indicates that the author of Malachi is describing the events
> and situation which was current at the time of his writing. If true, then
> the reasonable interpretation would be that he was making a prophecy which
> he expected to be fulfilled in his own day (1:5 "Your eyes will see it.")
But their eyes would still "see" even after their deaths assuming they
still lived on in the region of the afterlife for the
eternally-'living' - the region called the "bosom of Abraham" in Luke
16.
>
> There is another Elijah in the Bible besides the one mentioned in 1 & 2
> Kings. Ezra lists some one named Elijah in his list of the descendants of
> priests who had taken foreign wives. Personal names often ran in families.
> Therefore it is probable that other Elijahs lived at the time of the
> author.of Malachi.
>
> The problem of the two messengers and the anonymity of the text resolves
> itself if we allow that the author himself was named Elijah, and that he is
> referring to himself in verse 3:1. This gives a completely different
> interpretation to Malachi, but one which is probably the right one.
I am not convinced. Now you're assuming there were definitely two
messengers (when the LXX was erroneous to translate Mal. 1:1 as "his
messenger" rather than "my messenger") and assuming the author was
definitely anonymous, whereas you said of the word/name Malachi at the
beginning of your post "it could be a proper name".
>
> --Wax
Linda Lee
> On Jul 9, 8:29 pm, "wax" <weather...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > there are several questions about it which should be considered.
>
> > The first question: Who isMalachi?
> > Traditionally, historical writings such as the Pentateuch, Joshua, Judges,
> > and others were written anonymously. On the other hand, prophetic books,
> > have no reference to a prophet namedMalachi. Although it could be a
> > proper name, the word itself merely means "my messenger" and is translated
> > that way in verse 3:1. In verse 1:1 the LXX translates it as "his
> > messenger".
>
> > This presents us with the unusual problem of having two "messengers". The
> > first is the individual whom God reveled the revelation through (Malachi
> > 1:1), and there is the messenger which God is sending (Malachi3:1.)
>
> > When wasMalachiwritten?
> > exile. The temple appears to have been rebuilt, and the political situation
> > suggests to most scholars a date of around 450 b.c.e. About 100 years after
> > Ezra.
>
> > What was the purpose of the book?
> > Isaiah 49-54 had promised prosperity and joy following the returns of the
> >Malachithrows the blame on the people and the priesthood. The people do
> > not make proper sacrifices (1:7,) the priests themselves do not honor God's
> > name (2:2.)
>
> > In response God promises to send "my messenger" to clear the way. (3:1.)
> > The appearance of the messenger would be followed by the fulfillment of
> > Isaiah's prophecies. In the final chapter the author identifies the
> > messenger he is sending as "Elijah the prophet" (4:5.) Christian tradition
> > identifies this with John the Baptist who is supposed to be the same Elijah
> > the prophet who did not die, but went up to heaven in a windstorm (2 Kings
> > 2:14.)
>
> > Is the Christian interpretation correct?
> > and situation which was current at the time of his writing. If true, then
> > the reasonable interpretation would be that he was making a prophecy which
> > he expected to be fulfilled in his own day (1:5 "Your eyes will see it.")
>
> > There is another Elijah in the Bible besides the one mentioned in 1 & 2
> > Kings. Ezra lists some one named Elijah in his list of the descendants of
> > priests who had taken foreign wives. Personal names often ran in families.
> > Therefore it is probable that other Elijahs lived at the time of the
> > author.ofMalachi.
>
> > The problem of the two messengers and the anonymity of the text resolves
> > itself if we allow that the author himself was named Elijah, and that he is
> > referring to himself in verse 3:1. This gives a completely different
>
> I will have to examine what you say here, so I can see what you mean,
> article on 'Gabriel's Revelation'. I have to head on out right now,
> life has been too busy lately. I am pretty fascinated and excited by
> this find. It's the best thing I have heard in a long time. :-)
>
> By the way, I wonder where Suzanne went. I am worried she hasn't
> posted since May I think, and she didn't reply to my email to her,
> which is unusual. I think she said she was 68 at one time... I do
> believe she has the Holy Spirit like she said because she told me God
> told her to leave me alone about Paul, and that I was just trying to
> get people to read the Bible. To me, (especially since she accepts
> Paul) that confirms I am right about Paul's role. And she was exactly
> right about my motivation.
I want to clarify I reached the conclusion that God really did speak
to Suzanne because of what I am trying to get people to read in the
Bible -- the parts in John, Revelation, and elsewhere, even in Paul's
writings, that refer to and identify the false apostle Paul for what
he was. So when Suzanne said God told her to leave me alone about
Paul, and that God told her I was just trying to get people to read
the Bible, even though Suzanne still thinks I am wrong about Paul,
what she says God told her is confirmation that God knows of and
approves of my motivation to get people to actually read the entire NT
to know the real false apostle Paul. If Suzanne had herself changed
her mind and thought I was right about Paul; that wouldn't have been
any confirmation at all that God led her. She just thinks, I am sure,
that eventually God would lead me to accept Paul. But that is not what
she said God told her.
>
>
>
> > --Wax
Linda Lee
> > On Jul 14, 2:02 am, Al Smith <inva...@address.com> wrote:
> >>>> > >> Again, merely reinforces my conviction that Jesus planned and
> >>>>> > >> > engineered his own capture and his own execution.
>
> >>>>> > >> > -Al-
>
> >>> > > Did you get that conviction from the New Testament because the Messiah
> >>> > > openly says he was in control (of the events leading to his death),
> >>> > > being God.
>
> >>> > > Mat 16:21 "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his
> >>> > > disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things
> >>> > > of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be
> >>> > > raised again the third day."
>
> >> > My conclusion evolved as part of a study I made of the death and
> >> > resurrection of Jesus, for a book that I wrote (hasn't yet been
> >> > published). It was based on a lot of little factors.
>
> >> > The death of Jesus seems to fulfill some prophecies in the Old
> >> > Testament books.
>
> >> > Is this because he was the true Son of God, and for this reason the
> >> > prophecies were actually about him?
>
> >> > Or, is it because the writers of the Gospels inserted a lot of false
> >> > information after the fact in order to force his death to conform to
> >> > prophecy?
>
> >> > Or ... as I believe ... is it because Jesus had been a student of
> >> > these prophecies, saw that for him to fulfill these prophecies would
> >> > give his teachings more weight, and therefore deliberately contrived
> >> > that his death should fulfill the prophecies?
>
> >> > The last hypothesis presumes that Jesus did not expect to die on the
> >> > cross. He expected God to rescue him, thereby demonstrating his
> >> > divinity for his followers. When he realized that God was not going
> >> > to save him, he cried out, "Why hast thou forsaken me?"
>
> > So you presume he arranged to fulfill the prophecies, and this
> > hypothesis, along with the words you quoted, shows you he thought he'd
> > be saved and didn't expect to be crucified?
>
> > NO. He quoted Psalm 22 because it prophesied of him:
>
> > Ps. 22:1 "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so
> > far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?" The rest of
> > the Psalm describes a crucifixion. You really should read some of the
> > Old and New Testaments, as it is obvious you have not. The quote from
> > Psalm 22 is likely the most famous line in the entire Bible. I'd like
> > to see your book on the subject of Christ.
>
> Jesus thought God would save him from death on the cross. At some
> point he realized that he was not going to be saved, and he had a
> crisis of faith. What could be more obvious? It's so obvious it
> shouldn't even need to be stated. That's why he cried out the
> question, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" Because, until that moment,
> he thought he would be saved from death.
>
> You know so much about the verses of Scripture, you don't know
> anything at all. You can't even see what is right in front of your
> nose, because you've managed to twist things so far arse-backwards
> and upside down. Instead of preening yourself on your enormous
> knowledge of Scripture, try using you brain for a change. Try
> thinking an original thought.
>
> -Al-
Ooh. I guess having your ignorance exposed hurts.
Can't you read? Ps. 22:1 "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Those are the exact words attributed to Christ on the cross. It is you
who can't see what is right in front of your nose.
What happened to the supposedly civil Al, anyway? No more complaints
when you're called ignorant, which ignorance is painfully obvious in
almost all of your posts concerning the Messiah.
guardian Snow
> Is this because he was the true Son of God, and for this reason the
> prophecies were actually about him?
Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Yaʽaqoḇ, and Yisra’ĕl, My called: I am He,
I am the First, I am also the Last.
Rev 22:13 “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End,
the First and the Last.
Mat 22:43 He said to them, “Then how does Dawiḏ in the Spirit call
Him ‘Master,’ saying,
Mat 22:44 ‘יהוה said to my Master, “Sit at My right hand, until I make
Your enemies a footstool of Your feet” ’?
Mat 22:45 “If then Dawiḏ calls Him ‘Master,’ how is He his Son?”
Psa 110:1 יהוה said to my Master, “Sit at My right hand, Until I make
Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
Linda Lee
> On Jul 28, 1:10 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Is this because he was the true Son of God, and for this reason the
> > prophecies were actually about him?
I did not write that, Al Smith did (and he goes on to argue the
point), and I replied to him. Perhaps you were confused because he
says he's written a book:
Al Smith erroneously wrote:
> >> > My conclusion evolved as part of a study I made of the death and
> >> > resurrection of Jesus, for a book that I wrote (hasn't yet been
> >> > published). It was based on a lot of little factors.
> >> > The death of Jesus seems to fulfill some prophecies in the Old
> >> > Testament books.
> >> > Is this because he was the true Son of God, and for this reason the
> >> > prophecies were actually about him?
> >> > Or, is it because the writers of the Gospels inserted a lot of false
> >> > information after the fact in order to force his death to conform to
> >> > prophecy?
End quote.
guardian Snow
> > > Is this because he was the true Son of God, and for this reason the
> > > prophecies were actually about him?
>
> I did not write that, Al Smith did (and he goes on to argue the
> point), and I replied to him. Perhaps you were confused because he
> says he's written a book:
Sorry... I cleaned that up too much. What I was thinking about is
"Elohim is One".
I believe this means that the spirits are of one mind, both Father and
his only begotten son. That we have One that presides over all and
the Son sitting at his right hand and seven other spirits that are
before the throne.
Rev 1:4 Yoḥanan, to the seven assemblies that are in Asia: Favour to
you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is coming, and from
the seven Spirits that are before His throne,
Gen 1:26 And Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to
Our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the
birds of the heavens, and over the livestock, and over all the earth
and over all the creeping creatures that creep on the earth.”
I find it interesting that this verse is Elohim speaking to one of the
other spirits and is plural. It's one of the mysteries that is the
scriptures. Clearly, while we speak of ONE El, of all creation whose
image is imprinted on us, he has a deeper revelation for us.
Psa 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth
for ever.
Psa 136:2 Give thanks to the Elohim of mighty ones! For His kindness
is everlasting.
An interesting verse to consider.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Friendship may, and often does, grow into love, but love never
subsides into friendship.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
> > Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Yaʽaqoḇ, and Yisra’ĕl, My called: I am He,
Linda Lee
Snow,
Those words "gods" and "mighty ones" are both translated from elohiym,
and elohiym is translated angels, gods, goddesses, judges, great,
mighty, and God.
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
BDB Definition:
1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God
God is the God of angels, and the Father of lights (also angels) in
James 1:17.
James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and
cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness,
neither shadow of turning."
Here is another verse contrasting the children of this world with the
children of light (i.e. angels, children of God, the Father of
lights):
Luke 16:8 "And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had
done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation
wiser than the children of light."
And in Genesis Chapter One (and Three in Gen. 3:22), the word "us" is
not in the Hebrew texts: Gen 1:26 And God430 said,559 Let us
make6213 man120 in our image,6754 ...This has said only 'God said make
man image'...
Gen. 3:22 - Gen 3:22 And the LORD3068 God430 said,559 Behold,2005 the
man120 is become1961 as one259 of4480 us, to know3045 good2896 and
evil:7451 ...This has just said man has become one knowing good and
evil, not one of us.
Linda
>
> Shalom,
>
> *´¨)
> ¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
> (¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
>
> Friendship may, and often does, grow into love, but love never
> subsides into friendship.
> Lord Byron
>
> Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
> version which you can download for free athttp://www.isr-messianic.org/
Linda Lee
> > "Al Smith" <inva...@address.com> wrote in message
> >news:f0bjk.2170$%b7.704@edtnps82...
>
> > [snip]
>
> >> > Jesus plans his own capture and execution, intending that God will
> >> > intervene and save him from death at the last instant, thereby proving to
> >> > everyone that he is indeed the true Son of God.
>
> > Bullshit.
>
> > Jesus prayed three times in the Garden of Gethsemane that the Father would
> > not require Him to take the "cup" placed before Him, and that He wouldn't
> > have to die, but He acquiesced to the Father's will, as was requested of
> > Him, demonstrating that...
>
> > 1) This was NOT Jesus' plan being played out, but the Father's.
> > 2) Jesus had it in His own hands to stop the process at any time, but CHOSE
> > to do what was required of Him, as He said "I lay down my life; NO MAN takes
> > it from me."
> > 3) Jesus had NO ILLUSIONS that anyone would save Him from the fate laid out
> > before Him (which set the pattern for all the true believers who are to
> > follow Him in "taking up their cross and follow Him").
>
> > So, in short, your just another conniving liar trying to change Jesus into
> > what YOU want Him to be INSTEAD OF CHANGING YOURSELF INTO WHAT HE WANTS YOU
> > TO BE.
>
> > [snip the rest of the revisionist garbage]
>
> > Ike
>
> It always comes down to the bottom line, "My God, my God, why hast
> thou forsaken me?"
>
> I'm sure you creative biblical hacks can twists this seven ways to
> Sunday, but it is still Jesus asking his Father in heaven why he has
> let Jesus down. This implies that Jesus had an understanding that
> God would do something, and that God has not fulfilled the
> understanding of Jesus, thereby disappointing Jesus.
>
> What could be more plain? Sure, it plays havoc with your
> preconceptions, but guess what? Time to throw out your
> preconceptions and use your head for something more than a place to
> hang your wig.
>
> -Al-
You are being dense. What don't you understand about Ps. 22:1, "My
God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me" followed by a description of
the crucifixion of the expected Messiah? Oh, of course,
acknowledging it "plays havoc with your preconceptions".
You really should read the texts before you try a critical analysis of
them, and you prove you haven't read them again and again.
guardian Snow
It's brought out some very interesting thoughts about Elohim and One
El, with his son. I find it interesting in the idea that Son is
created by the Father.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim,
and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3 All came to be through Him,1 and without Him not even one came
to be that
The word creating light and spirits (plural) creating all things of
one mind.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through Him,
and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to
become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,
Now the question as to what HIS Name is comes to mind...
Jer 23:6 “In His days Yehuḏah shall be saved, and Yisra’ĕl dwell
safely. And this is His Name whereby He shall be called: ‘יהוה our
Righteousness.’
P.S. You seem to be distressed and I've noticed it for a short
while... everything O.K.?
Exo 15:26 And He said, “If you diligently obey the voice of יהוה your
Elohim and do what is right in His eyes, and shall listen to His
commands and shall guard all His laws, I shall bring on you none of
the diseases I brought on the Mitsrites, for I am יהוה who heals
you.”
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for
the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of
the world. It was a perfect act.
Mohandas Gandhi
Linda Lee
God created Salvation through His incarnation as the Saviour. I don't
see how John 1:1-3 (following) shows the Father created the Son
(although God created all flesh); instead it says "the Word was
Elohim" (the Word was God). The Messiah always said they were one, one
Spirit. That is why the unforgivable sin is to say Christ had an
unclean spirit, because he personified the Holy Spirit of God. Mar
3:29-30 "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said,
He [the Messiah] hath an unclean spirit".
>
> Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim,
> and the Word was Elohim.
> Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
> Joh 1:3 All came to be through Him,1 and without Him not even one came
> to be that
>
> The word creating light and spirits (plural) creating all things of
> one mind.
>
> Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through Him,
> and the world did not know Him.
> Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
> Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to
> become children of Elohim, to those believing in His Name,
>
> Now the question as to what HIS Name is comes to mind...
>
> Jer 23:6 “In His days Yehuḏah shall be saved, and Yisra’ĕl dwell
> safely. And this is His Name whereby He shall be called: ‘יהוה our
> Righteousness.’
>
> P.S. You seem to be distressed and I've noticed it for a short
> while... everything O.K.?
What makes you think that? There is nothing in this post to indicate
that. I will assume you are talking about my response to Al. I'm not
distressed. Sometimes people are just annoying. I dislike conceit
and dishonesty in people, likely why I could never stomach Paul. It's
a pet peeve, I guess, as conceit and dishonesty tend to 'go hand in
hand'. I expressed surprise Al didn't know of the famous Psalm 22 (at
the same time he critiques all of the Christian Scriptures), and he
attacked. When I pointed it out, he claims I attacked first, which was
a lie, first conceit, then a lie to justify his response. He was
offended I suggested he actually read the Scriptures prior to
critiquing them, so he felt attacked. Conceited people and liars
suck, and he was both. If you are actually reading his posts, he is
continuously exhibiting almost-total ignorance of the Scriptures, and
apparently thinks he is the only one who ever had an 'original
thought' or is even capable of thought.
Linda Lee
You know, I'm really, really surprised almost no one here is
interested in the archaeological find of 'Gabriel's Revelation' since
many express interest in the book given by Gabriel to Daniel that was
to be sealed until the endtimes, and this revelation seems to fit it
very nicely and its authenticity is not doubted as many finds are.
guardian Snow
> You know, I'm really, really surprised almost no one here is
> interested in the archaeological find of 'Gabriel's Revelation' since
> many express interest in the book given by Gabriel to Daniel that was
> to be sealed until the endtimes, and this revelation seems to fit it
> very nicely and its authenticity is not doubted as many finds are.
I thought the article was well written and very interesting. It was
very inclusive and the only thing I wondered about is why the New York
Times didn't think to put a picture of this artifact on that web page.
It's not that I wasn't interested but without a picture, it's hard to
understand just what they found. Words written on a stone in Hebrew
that are not clear and "hard-to-read words". It was very open ended
in the article as to what was written saying, "indeed likely that the
key illegible word was “hayeh,” or “live.”
So, while I liked the article, maybe in my heart, like the dead sea
scrolls, time will tell more about this great find. It's just a
little early to get excited about "illegible" words. Maybe I just
didn't want to read to much into something.
I understand what's going on.. sorry about that. You know that I'm
grateful... I'm the type of guy that had to go and see the Dead Sea
Scrolls in person and see the actual writing. Now that got me
excited!
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
God is, even though the whole world deny him. Truth stands, even if
there be no public support. It is self-sustained.
Linda Lee
I am thinking another more legible copy will turn up. There are
archaeological treasures stored away in the archives of stored records
that no one is aware are there; hopefully now any similar writings
will be noticed.
Linda Lee
> On Jul 29, 3:05 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > You know, I'm really, really surprised almost no one here is
> > interested in the archaeological find of 'Gabriel's Revelation' since
> > many express interest in the book given by Gabriel to Daniel that was
> > to be sealed until the endtimes, and this revelation seems to fit it
> > very nicely and its authenticity is not doubted as many finds are.
>
> I thought the article was well written and very interesting. It was
> very inclusive and the only thing I wondered about is why the New York
> Times didn't think to put a picture of this artifact on that web page.
>
> It's not that I wasn't interested but without a picture, it's hard to
> understand just what they found. Words written on a stone in Hebrew
> that are not clear and "hard-to-read words". It was very open ended
> in the article as to what was written saying, "indeed likely that the
> key illegible word was “hayeh,” or “live.”
>
> So, while I liked the article, maybe in my heart, like the dead sea
> scrolls, time will tell more about this great find. It's just a
> little early to get excited about "illegible" words. Maybe I just
> didn't want to read to much into something.
>
> I understand what's going on.. sorry about that. You know that I'm
> grateful... I'm the type of guy that had to go and see the Dead Sea
> Scrolls in person and see the actual writing. Now that got me
> excited!
Like Thomas? ;-)
>
> Shalom,
> *´¨)
> ¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
> (¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
>
> God is, even though the whole world deny him. Truth stands, even if
> there be no public support. It is self-sustained.
> Mohandas Gandhi
>
> Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
> version which you can download for free athttp://www.isr-messianic.org/
What is exciting is not the illegible words, but the legible ones,
including and especially the names of the angels Michael and Gabriel,
who are only mentioned together in the pages of the book of Daniel,
wherein Gabriel gives a prophesy about Michael. The significance of
their names being on this Tablet is enormous, Gabriel being the angel
who announced to Mary of the Messiah's birth, and Michael being the
one who brings about the resurrection (and Gabriel prophesying of it).
Linda Lee
You should look at this site:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/850657.html
It points out that the idea of a slain and resurrected Messiah existed
prior to the birth of Yahashua` the Messiah (Jesus Christ), which
proves that the followers of Christ did not fabricate this idea, which
the modern Jews have long claimed, believing instead in only a
conquering Messiah. That is the real significance of this find, that
cannot be denied.
"
guardian Snow
> > Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
> > version which you can download for free athttp://www.isr-messianic.org/
>
> You should look at this site:http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/850657.html
>
> It points out that the idea of a slain and resurrected Messiah existed
> prior to the birth of Yahashua` the Messiah (Jesus Christ), which
> proves that the followers of Christ did not fabricate this idea, which
> the modern Jews have long claimed, believing instead in only a
> conquering Messiah. That is the real significance of this find, that
> cannot be denied.
I think that the modern "Jews" issue is more with the practice of
"modern Christians" and the fact that they really don't have a clue.
Breaking the Sabbath command and bowing before a cross is what most of
us understand to be the practice of this false church.
Then you have the whole blame it on the "Jews" mentality that Paul
brought into the picture and the antisemitism which ironically they
claim to worship. Scripture say:
Exo 31:14 ‘And you shall guard the Sabbath, for it is set-apart to
you. Everyone who profanes it shall certainly be put to death, for
anyone who does work on it, that being shall be cut off from among his
people.
The Christian church is death to them.
Exo 31:18 And when He had ended speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He
gave Mosheh two tablets of the Witness, tablets of stone, written with
the finger of Elohim.
They have profaned the very thing Elohim wrote with his finger and
called it, "weak and unprofitable".
Heb 7:18 For there is indeed a setting aside of the former command
because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
Which as you know is a direct contradiction to the Psalms of David.
Psa 19:7 The Torah of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The
witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple;
If somebody is preaching a false Messiah (in Paul) that profanes all
that you see is set apart, wouldn't you treat them like the plague
they are?
Deu 28:14 “And do not turn aside from any of the Words which I am
commanding you today, right or left, to go after other mighty ones to
serve them.
Deu 28:15 “And it shall be, if you do not obey the voice of יהוה your
Elohim, to guard to do all His commands and His laws which I command
you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake
you:
They have turned away from the true Elohim and followed after another
and are a cursed people that deserve our pity. They have chosen death
and yet, we try and teach them the way to life.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
Please come post your comments at
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
A moderated forum.
cactus
Funny, isn't it. Jews think the same of you, except for the last clause.
You are on your own.
guardian Snow
> > They have turned away from the true Elohim and followed after another
> > and are a cursed people that deserve our pity. They have chosen death
> > and yet, we try and teach them the way to life.
>
> Funny, isn't it. Jews think the same of you, except for the last clause.
> You are on your own.
Jer 42:2 and said to Yirmeyahu the prophet, “We beg you, let our
petition be acceptable to you, and pray for us to יהוה your Elohim,
for all this remnant, for we are few left of many, as your eyes see
us.
The remnant church is few but in that is a great work that by the few,
many will be called to the true worship. We have many examples in
scripture where even ONE changed the world.
Mat 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
The only question is, will you answer the calling? Shouldn't you want
to be among those few chosen people? It would be my hope that you
would answer some day to his calling.
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of Elohim, when we
love Elohim and guard His commands.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love for Elohim, that we guard His commands,1
and His commands are not heavy, Footnote: 1See 5:2, 2 John v. 6, John
14:15.
Will you show your love?
Linda Lee
cactus,
That was uncalled for; he was NOT talking about Jews (even though the
words in Deut. 28:14-15 were directed to the Israelites); he was
talking about Pauline Christians being cursed and pitiable - note the
first sentence following:
> > If somebody is preaching a false Messiah (in Paul) that profanes all
> > that you see is set apart, wouldn't you treat them like the plague
> > they are?
>
> > Deu 28:14 “And do not turn aside from any of the Words which I am
> > commanding you today, right or left, to go after other mighty ones to
> > serve them.
> > Deu 28:15 “And it shall be, if you do not obey the voice of יהוה your
> > Elohim, to guard to do all His commands and His laws which I command
> > you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake
> > you:
He also said this about the hypocrisy of Pauline Christians who
disdain Jews, but claim to worship a Jew - "Jesus of Nazareth":
> > Then you have the whole blame it on the "Jews" mentality that Paul
> > brought into the picture and the antisemitism which ironically they
> > claim to worship.
Sometimes you imagine bigotry that is not there.
Linda Lee
>
> Please come post your comments athttp://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
> A moderated forum.
Snow,
Cactus is a Jew (some days an atheist also, according to him), and he
thought you were speaking of the Jews when you were speaking of
Pauline Christians.
Linda Lee
You were mistaken in what you were assuming here as he was not talking
about the Jews, but I am wondering why you say we are 'on our own',
i.e. you don't try to teach the way to life, when the Hebrew
Scriptures says you are to be a 'light to the Gentiles'? The Jewish
people are special to God because they were to be his servants in this
respect. Some, or perhaps many, seem to want the perks without doing
God his service.
Linda Lee
>
> Please come post your comments athttp://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
> A moderated forum.
Btw, there is a picture of the Messiah stone on that website, but I
had trouble enlarging it enough to get a good look, but then my
computer is acting up tonight.
cactus
If he wasn't, he can tell me that's not what he meant, and I will apologize.
>
>>> If somebody is preaching a false Messiah (in Paul) that profanes all
>>> that you see is set apart, wouldn't you treat them like the plague
>>> they are?
>>> Deu 28:14 “And do not turn aside from any of the Words which I am
>>> commanding you today, right or left, to go after other mighty ones to
>>> serve them.
>>> Deu 28:15 “And it shall be, if you do not obey the voice of יהוה your
>>> Elohim, to guard to do all His commands and His laws which I command
>>> you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake
>>> you:
>
>
> He also said this about the hypocrisy of Pauline Christians who
> disdain Jews, but claim to worship a Jew - "Jesus of Nazareth":
>>> Then you have the whole blame it on the "Jews" mentality that Paul
>>> brought into the picture and the antisemitism which ironically they
>>> claim to worship.
>
> Sometimes you imagine bigotry that is not there.
That is quite possible, especially here. But in these NGs it is more
accurate to infer it than not.
cactus
> On Jul 29, 4:50 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
>>> They have turned away from the true Elohim and followed after another
>>> and are a cursed people that deserve our pity. They have chosen death
>>> and yet, we try and teach them the way to life.
>> Funny, isn't it. Jews think the same of you, except for the last clause.
>> You are on your own.
>
> Jer 42:2 and said to Yirmeyahu the prophet, “We beg you, let our
> petition be acceptable to you, and pray for us to יהוה your Elohim,
> for all this remnant, for we are few left of many, as your eyes see
> us.
What makes you think he was talking about Christians? He predated your
Jesus by centuries.
>
> The remnant church is few but in that is a great work that by the few,
> many will be called to the true worship. We have many examples in
> scripture where even ONE changed the world.
>
Which one?
> Mat 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”
>
Not my canon.
> The only question is, will you answer the calling? Shouldn't you want
> to be among those few chosen people? It would be my hope that you
> would answer some day to his calling.
>
Chosen is an interesting term. The Jews made a Covenant. It was a legal
agreement. Any romantic aspects of that were burned out of us literally
by two millennia of pogroms that culminated in the Holocaust. We all
look the same as smoke.
> 1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of Elohim, when we
> love Elohim and guard His commands.
> 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love for Elohim, that we guard His commands,1
> and His commands are not heavy, Footnote: 1See 5:2, 2 John v. 6, John
> 14:15.
>
> Will you show your love?
>
Even though it is not my canon, I do show my love where possible.
cactus
Our very existence is a light to some and nuisance to others. We live
and worship as we do. It is up to others to do as they choose. We do our
best to live ethical lives as taught in Torah. That is all the example
that anyone should need. They should live moral lives as well.
It doesn't matter who or what one worships. Just live a good life.
The Jewish
> people are special to God because they were to be his servants in this
> respect. Some, or perhaps many, seem to want the perks without doing
> God his service.
G-d has shown it in very strange ways. I do not impute such things to
G-d or any deity for that matter. Too much dissonance.
guardian Snow
> guardian Snow wrote:
> > On Jul 29, 4:50 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
> >>> They have turned away from the true Elohim and followed after another
> >>> and are a cursed people that deserve our pity. They have chosen death
> >>> and yet, we try and teach them the way to life.
> >> Funny, isn't it. Jews think the same of you, except for the last clause.
> >> You are on your own.
>
> > Jer 42:2 and said to Yirmeyahu the prophet, “We beg you, let our
> > petition be acceptable to you, and pray for us to יהוה your Elohim,
> > for all this remnant, for we are few left of many, as your eyes see
> > us.
>
> What makes you think he was talking about Christians? He predated your
> Jesus by centuries.
What made you think I was talking about Christians? The remnant speak
to the people of Elohim and while Christians wrongfully believe they
can break the covenant of Moses, ignore his Sabbath and then claim
they believe, I would not be so arrogant and think you probably
misunderstood me from the beginning.
Exo 31:16 ‘And the children of Yisra’ĕl shall guard the Sabbath, to
observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting
covenant.
I happen to understand the meaning of everlasting. :)
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
A celebrity is one who is known to many persons he is glad he doesn't
know.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
Please come post your comments at http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
A moderated forum.
> > The remnant church is few but in that is a great work that by the few,
cactus
> On Jul 30, 12:17 am, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>> guardian Snow wrote:
>>> On Jul 29, 4:50 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>>>>> They have turned away from the true Elohim and followed after another
>>>>> and are a cursed people that deserve our pity. They have chosen death
>>>>> and yet, we try and teach them the way to life.
>>>> Funny, isn't it. Jews think the same of you, except for the last clause.
>>>> You are on your own.
>>> Jer 42:2 and said to Yirmeyahu the prophet, “We beg you, let our
>>> petition be acceptable to you, and pray for us to יהוה your Elohim,
>>> for all this remnant, for we are few left of many, as your eyes see
>>> us.
>> What makes you think he was talking about Christians? He predated your
>> Jesus by centuries.
>
> What made you think I was talking about Christians? The remnant speak
> to the people of Elohim and while Christians wrongfully believe they
> can break the covenant of Moses, ignore his Sabbath and then claim
> they believe, I would not be so arrogant and think you probably
> misunderstood me from the beginning.
Maybe. If so, I apologize.
<snip>
Linda Lee
> LindaLeewrote:
The Scriptures do not say your very existence is the light to the
Gentiles.
> We live
> and worship as we do. It is up to others to do as they choose. We do our
> best to live ethical lives as taught in Torah. That is all the example
> that anyone should need. They should live moral lives as well.
If you keep to yourselves and teach no one, how do your lives give any
example? I cannot tell what kind of person anyone here is. Your very
existence does not teach anyone anything.
>
> It doesn't matter who or what one worships. Just live a good life.
>
> The Jewish
>
> > people are special to God because they were to be his servants in this
> > respect. Some, or perhaps many, seem to want the perks without doing
> > God his service.
>
> G-d has shown it in very strange ways.
Judging God.
cactus
OK. I don't like the notion anyway. As the saying goes, Jews are just
like everyone else, only more so.
>
>
>> We live
>> and worship as we do. It is up to others to do as they choose. We do our
>> best to live ethical lives as taught in Torah. That is all the example
>> that anyone should need. They should live moral lives as well.
>
> If you keep to yourselves and teach no one, how do your lives give any
> example? I cannot tell what kind of person anyone here is. Your very
> existence does not teach anyone anything.
We live our lives. Maybe it's as much Zen as Jewish.
>
>> It doesn't matter who or what one worships. Just live a good life.
>>
>> The Jewish
>>
>>> people are special to God because they were to be his servants in this
>>> respect. Some, or perhaps many, seem to want the perks without doing
>>> God his service.
>> G-d has shown it in very strange ways.
>
> Judging God.
There is precedent. Rabbi Judah Loew of Prague (of Golem fame), formed a
Beit Din (rabbinical court) and put G-d on trial after some particularly
heinous pogroms. They convicted, but I don't know whether the penalty
was ever carried out.
Linda Lee
> On Jul 30, 12:17 am, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > guardian Snow wrote:
> > > On Jul 29, 4:50 pm, cactus <b...@nonespam.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> They have turned away from the true Elohim and followed after another
> > >>> and are a cursed people that deserve our pity. They have chosen death
> > >>> and yet, we try and teach them the way to life.
> > >> Funny, isn't it. Jews think the same of you, except for the last clause.
> > >> You are on your own.
>
> > > Jer 42:2 and said to Yirmeyahu the prophet, “We beg you, let our
> > > petition be acceptable to you, and pray for us to יהוה your Elohim,
> > > for all this remnant, for we are few left of many, as your eyes see
> > > us.
>
> > What makes you think he was talking about Christians? He predated your
> > Jesus by centuries.
>
> What made you think I was talking about Christians?
Snow,
I can't believe how confused this is getting. Cactus thought you were
talking about Jews when you said, "They have turned away from the true
Elohim and followed after another and are a cursed people that deserve
our pity. They have chosen death and yet, we try and teach them the
way to life." ***I*** thought you were talking about Pauline
Christians when you said that. Now you say, "What made you think I
was talking about Christians?" Weren't you talking about Pauline
Christians?
> The remnant speak
> to the people of Elohim and while Christians wrongfully believe they
> can break the covenant of Moses, ignore his Sabbath and then claim
> they believe, I would not be so arrogant and think you probably
> misunderstood me from the beginning.
>
> Exo 31:16 ‘And the children of Yisra’ĕl shall guard the Sabbath, to
> observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as an everlasting
> covenant.
>
> I happen to understand the meaning of everlasting. :)
>
> Shalom,
> *´¨)
> ¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
> (¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
>
> A celebrity is one who is known to many persons he is glad he doesn't
> know.
> Lord Byron
>
> Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
> version which you can download for free athttp://www.isr-messianic.org/
>
> Please come post your comments athttp://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
cactus
Good point. Let's see what he really meant...
Linda Lee
You two are not connecting at all, and he is not being clear on his
terms.
I know what he meant, and asked only to clarify for you. He is still
talking about *Pauline* Christians. But he is saying "the remnant"
Jer. 42:2 speaks of are not PAULINE Christians. I don't know what he
calls himself, apparently not a Christian. I had that same issue a
couple of years ago, but decided to differentiate between what I
believe and what many Christians believe by designating them Paulians
or 'Pauline Christians' since they think people must follow Paul and
Christ in order to be Christian and IMO the wrong beliefs stem from
Paul's teachings. I am a Christian as I follow Christ, and I'm not
going to let Paul or Pauline Christians take that away from me.
cactus
However, he has not told me what he in fact meant. I find that
interesting. Maybe I missed it. In either case, I look forward to a
response from him.
guardian Snow
> > What made you think I was talking about Christians?
>
> Snow,
>
> I can't believe how confused this is getting. Cactus thought you were
> talking about Jews when you said, "They have turned away from the true
> Elohim and followed after another and are a cursed people that deserve
> our pity. They have chosen death and yet, we try and teach them the
> way to life." ***I*** thought you were talking about Pauline
> Christians when you said that. Now you say, "What made you think I
> was talking about Christians?" Weren't you talking about Pauline
> Christians?
We need to be careful of labels because not all Christians have
changed times and Laws. An example of a Christian church that keeps
the festivals and Sabbath is here:
So not all of Israel has fallen away and the remnant still stands even
with "Pauline Christine" scriptures. "They" are those who reject the
commandments and Torah of Elohim.
Eze 11:12 “And you shall know that I am יהוה, for you have not walked
in My laws nor executed My right-rulings, but have done according to
the rulings of the gentiles1 which are all around you.” ’ ” Footnote:
1See Jer. 10:2.
We always bring out this passage for Christmas:
Jer 10:2 Thus said יהוה, “Do not learn the way of the gentiles, and do
not be awed by the signs of the heavens, for the gentiles are awed by
them.
So the fallen church are those who have learned the way of the
gentiles and profane the Sabbath.
Jer 10:2 Thus said יהוה, “Do not learn the way of the gentiles, and do
not be awed by the signs of the heavens, for the gentiles are awed by
them.
Not Christians, not Jews and NOT Muslims either for that matter if
they keep the Torah.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
version which you can download for free at
http://www.isr-messianic.org/
Please come post your comments at http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
A moderated forum.
Linda Lee
>
> Please come post your comments athttp://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua
> A moderated forum.
(I get your point that perhaps some Pauline Christians don't believe
all the Pauline lies.)
Before you make a lot of unnecessary enemies, why don't you just tell
cactus plainly whether or not you meant Jews when you said the
following - "They have turned away from the true Elohim and followed
guardian Snow
But the point is that whatever religion, race, creed or skin color we
subscribe to or live with is irregardless of the outcome and as I've
stated, "They" are people that have turned from the Sabbath of the
covenant. These are the people of Elohim...
Eze 20:19 ‘I am יהוה your Elohim. Walk in My laws, and guard My right-
rulings, and do them.
Eze 20:20 ‘And set apart My Sabbaths, and they shall be a sign between
Me and you, to know that I am יהוה your Elohim.’
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
But what is Hope? Nothing but the paint on the face of Existence; the
least touch of truth rubs it off, and then we see what a hollow-
cheeked harlot we have got hold of.
Lord Byron
Portions of this post have been reprinted from (Scriptures +1998)
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Linda Lee
Snow,
I already understood what you said, and I understand now that you mean
here that some Jews may be included in that group that ignores the
Sabbath.
But, as I said before, cactus thinks you were referring to ALL of the
Jews and ONLY all of the Jews; if you want him to continue to think
so, so be it.