"Jesus' Words Only" - What Do You Think?
John Gardner
mixture of shock (at my complacent assumption that Paul's letters were
inspired scripture Just Because They're In The Canon), amazement (at the
flat-out contradictions between Yeshua's teachings and Paul's), and
ancticipation (at what comes next).
Briefly, Del Tondo makes a case that Paul/Saul/Sha'ul/Pavlvs of Tarsus was a
either a consistently false apostle or a genuine believer in Yeshua whose
mind was subsequently corrupted a la Baalam, leading him to teach moral
subjectivism and lawlessness on such matters as eating food sacrificed to
idols, fornication, etc.
I.m probably a first class idiot for valuing the opinions of contributors to
this ng, but I'd appreciate hearing any comments, second-guesses, etc. from
y'all about del Tondo's thesis as I plough thru the rest of his book. Second
impressions are sometimes more helpful than first ones (to me, at least).
Shalom!
John/Jochanan.
vince garcia
Do you see why I made the indictment against messianics in my earlier
post? You're becoming a living example of what I was warning about,
John. If you keep going down this road, you are going to wind up
denouncing Paul and his dictrines, and base your justification on
keeping the commandments, and any salvation you might have had will be
lost.
This is the heresy of messianic judaism.
Linda Lee
> My copy of Del Tondo's book arrived a few days ago. I'm reading it with a
> mixture of shock (at my complacent assumption that Paul's letters were
> inspired scripture Just Because They're In The Canon), amazement (at the
> flat-out contradictions between Yeshua's teachings and Paul's), and
> ancticipation (at what comes next).
>
> Briefly, Del Tondo makes a case that Paul/Saul/Sha'ul/Pavlvs of Tarsus was a
> either a consistently false apostle or a genuine believer in Yeshua whose
> mind was subsequently corrupted a la Baalam, leading him to teach moral
> subjectivism and lawlessness on such matters as eating food sacrificed to
> idols, fornication, etc.
There's a third possibility; that Paul didn't write everything
attributed to him and/or his writings have been corrupted.
From a post earlier today:
Whoever wrote Hebrews makes it
very clear in Heb. 10:26 that if believers (who've already learned the
truth and had their sins forgiven) "sin wilfully ...there remaineth no
more sacrifice for sins". In other words, if believers who have
received Christ's salvation become 'willful sinners', they are no
longer saved, and are in need of repentance.
It is believed that the author of Hebrews may have been Paul or one
taught by him, possibly because the OT quote, "the just shall live by
faith" from Rom. 1:17 & Gal. 3:11 is repeated again here in Heb.
10:38-39.
But in Hebrews Chapter Ten, the author quotes "the just shall live by
faith" to very clearly and concisely support that believers should NOT
sin; whereas Paul in the epistles to the Romans and Galatians also
says "the just shall live by faith", but is so unclear in what he is
talking about that people interpret them as both for and against being
lawful.
The epistle to the Hebrews almost certainly had to have at least TWO
authors, as also the discourse on the inability of believers to lose
their salvation in Heb. 6:4-6 ("For it is impossible ...If they shall
fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to
themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame") does
NOT agree with the later chapter in Heb. 10:26 as follows:
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the
knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery
indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or
three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath
counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an
unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto
me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge
his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living
God.
...
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the
will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come,
and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back,
my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of
them that believe to the saving of the soul.
So, if we assume Paul is the author of the entire epistle to the
Hebrews, Paul does NOT support lawlessness for believers; he is often
just truly "hard to be understood" in "all his epistles" as II Pet.
3:16-17 says, and so leads people to "destruction" with "the error of
the wicked" ("wicked" defined "lawless").
***** And even though I may quote him here for the benefit of those
who mistakenly believe he taught they could continue to sin if they
were believers, I do not consider Paul an adequate apostle for the
following reasons.*****
If Paul did NOT write everything attributed to him (as many scholars
believe), his writings have been so corrupted as to be wholly
unreliable.
If Paul did write everything attributed to him, not only was Paul an
inadequate teacher, being contradictory and "hard to be understood",
especially on the subject of law and sin (CRUCIAL POINTS of the
Gospel), but he intimidated and threatened people into accepting him
as an apostle of Christ (II Cor. 13:2-3), took it upon himself to
administer God's vengeance after his conversion, threatening his
congregation with the sword (Rom. 13:4), and used deceit in preaching
the gospel (Rom. 3:7, & II Cor. 12:16).
Since Paul employed deceit and strong-arm tactics, and his teachings
concerning the law and sin led many to "destruction" (II Pet.
3:16-17), he was in no way, shape, or form "harmless as doves" as the
real apostles were told to be when the Messiah sent them forth to
preach.
Matt. 10:16, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of
wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
This was when the Messiah sent them first to the house of Israel, but
why should we think they were to behave differently (as Paul did,
intimidating and deceitful) when he sent them to teach and baptize
"all nations" in Matt. 28:19?
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the
world. Amen.
ruth
>
> - Show quoted text -
I am a Messianic gentile.
I believe we are all, both Jew and gentile to keep the Law.
And I believe that there is only one way to be saved, by faith in
Yeshua.
Trust and obey.
Rev.14:12 :Here is the patience of the Saints: here are they that
keep the Commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua
Ruth.
singin4free
When you read the words of Yeshua, how do you think we got them? They
are the testimony of the apostles. Jesus never wrote a book. We are
reading the testimony of John, Peter, James and others who walked with
him. Luke seems to have interviewed others like Mary the mother of
Jesus and people who were healed or had miracles happen to them. If
you can't trust the evangelists who wrote the gospels, you can't trust
the testimony about Jesus either. But you can and you should. You can
trust Luke, and therefore also Acts. If you can trust Acts you can
trust Paul too. The campaign against Paul is false. There is an agenda
behind it. Don't trust the modern revisionists. Trust the Bible.
John Gardner
I'm far from ripping the Pauline letters out of my New Testament.
I guess my question at this stage is, how far to trust Paul when he's
reported to teach things that seem quite opposite to Yeshua's teachings. I
don't feel that conflict with Luke or the other synoptic writers.
Yes, Luke does track Paul in Acts. No question. But Luke doesn't really go
beyond this to teach, What must we do to be saved? Paul does. Or seems to.
Every book I read seems better at the middle (where I'm at now) than the
end - so will reserve more comment for now.
Blessings,
Jochanan.
"singin4free" <jffr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6d682a1c-f733-44c9...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
John Gardner
I'm not reading this book as a messianic - just as a searcher for truth. The
"road" I'm on may well double back to an acclamation of Paul. Similarly, I
may well read the Gospel of Thomas but not become a raving Gnostic.
I'm just realizing at this stage of the adventure that there is an important
distinction between (1) believing in Yeshua and (2) believing everything any
"apostle" said about Him -- simply on the ground that some (probably
apostate) Church Council in 3XX or 4XX accepted this "apostle" as the Real
Deal..
That's all!
Jochanan/John.
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B3148...@ix.netcom.com...
John Gardner
The book of Hebrews sure raises lots of question -- but none [to me] of the
magnitude of denying that YHWH personally gave the Torah so as to convert
the seed of Abraham into Ishmael. Which del Tondo reminds me that Paul did.
In our Torah class a few weeks ago we went thru the Akedah passages & I
learned that Islam not only reveres Ishmael, but believes that it was HIM,
not Yitzhak, that Abraham bound.
If you put that together with what Paul says the Law accomplishes, you get
something close to the "Koranic" take on things -- a more dismal caven than
I have the stomach to explore ...
Jochanan.
"Linda Lee" <lindag...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:9f68ef00-bd07-426b...@m26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Linda Lee
> On Dec 22, 2:47 pm, "John Gardner" <gardner1...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > My copy of Del Tondo's book arrived a few days ago. I'm reading it with a
> > mixture of shock (at my complacent assumption that Paul's letters were
> > inspired scripture Just Because They're In The Canon), amazement (at the
> > flat-out contradictions between Yeshua's teachings and Paul's), and
> > ancticipation (at what comes next).
>
> > Briefly, Del Tondo makes a case that Paul/Saul/Sha'ul/Pavlvs of Tarsus was a
> > either a consistently false apostle or a genuine believer in Yeshua whose
> > mind was subsequently corrupted a la Baalam, leading him to teach moral
> > subjectivism and lawlessness on such matters as eating food sacrificed to
> > idols, fornication, etc.
>
> > I.m probably a first class idiot for valuing the opinions of contributors to
> > this ng, but I'd appreciate hearing any comments, second-guesses, etc. from
> > y'all about del Tondo's thesis as I plough thru the rest of his book. Second
> > impressions are sometimes more helpful than first ones (to me, at least).
>
> > Shalom!
>
> > John/Jochanan.
>
> When you read the words of Yeshua, how do you think we got them? They
> are the testimony of the apostles. Jesus never wrote a book. We are
> reading the testimony of John, Peter, James and others who walked with
> him.
They didn't just "walk with him", they were trained by him before they
were sent to teach.
And no, the Messiah didn't write a book, he taught his apostles, for
over three years, the things he wanted taught to believers, so they
might be saved. I really _wonder WHY_ that isn't good enough for
some?
We all know Paul never met the Messiah during the Messiah's lifetime,
and was not among the apostles who were taught and trained.
> Luke seems to have interviewed others like Mary the mother of
> Jesus and people who were healed or had miracles happen to them.
What makes you think Luke didn't hear many things in the book of Acts
(not pertaining to Paul) from the real apostles, since he said in his
Gospel of Luke that he'd interviewed "eyewitnesses" and was among the
real apostles at the meetings in Jerusalem?
Paul was not an eye witness to any of the things pertaining to the
life of the Messiah, unless he was among those Pharisees who
determined to have the Messiah arrested, persecuted, and killed the
Messiah, which is likely since Paul said he was brought up a the feet
of the Pharisee Gamaliel (Acts 22:3).
Act 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in
Cilicia, yet BROUGHT UP in this city AT THE FEET OF GAMALIEL, and
taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and
was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way [the church of God] unto the
death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
Gamaliel was on the council who gave Paul the authority to persecute
the church of God after the death of the Messiah, as it was Gamaliel
who was in charge of the council who "commanded" what should be done
with Peter and the other apostles (Acts 5:29 & 5:34) when they
disobeyed the council's orders that they should not teach in the name
of the Messiah. At least Gamaliel didn't want them killed, like others
on the council did, but Gamaliel had to have been the one in charge of
the council's decisions since he "commanded" the council not to slay
them, and instead they were beaten and commanded again not to teach in
the name of the Messiah. It was this SAME council headed by Gamaliel,
whom Paul said raised him, who also determined to have the Messiah
turned over to the Romans to be CRUCIFIED.)
Act 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the
council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not
teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your
doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We
ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and
hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and
a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the
Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Act 5:33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took
counsel to SLAY them.
Act 5:34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named
Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people,
and COMMANDED to put the apostles forth a little space;
Act 5:35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to
yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
Act 5:36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to
be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined
themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were
scattered, and brought to nought.
Act 5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the
taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and
all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
Act 5:38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them
alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to
nought:
Act 5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye
be found even to fight against God.
Act 5:40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the
apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak
in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
> If you can't trust the evangelists who wrote the gospels, you can't trust
> the testimony about Jesus either. But you can and you should. You can
> trust Luke, and therefore also Acts. If you can trust Acts you can
> trust Paul too. The campaign against Paul is false.
Do you think that Paul only taught the teachings of the Messiah? If
so, what makes you think he was necessary in that he added anything to
the teachings of God incarnate?
Either Paul taught additional things that the Messiah did not teach,
in which case Paul's teachings should be rejected as they are not the
teachings of the Messiah, or else Paul taught only what the Messiah
taught his true apostles to teach us, in which case he was
unnecessary, as the Messiah, God incarnate as the Saviour, taught
_everything_ that was required to obtain salvation.
> There is an agenda
> behind it. Don't trust the modern revisionists. Trust the Bible.
YES, "There is an agenda behind it". That "agenda" is that we should
only trust the teachings of God incarnate as the Messiah through his
real apostles that he trained at great length in the way of
salvation.
The "agenda" is "Jesus' Words Only", as Douglas Del Tondo, Esq. says
in the title of his first book.
(And he is a firm believer in God incarnate as the Saviour and
Messiah, and says he would have preferred to use the name Yeshua in
the title, but thought it was not known well enough.)
vince garcia
and you're wrong. DEAD wrong. You are, in fact, a false teacher by that
statement.
> And I believe that there is only one way to be saved, by faith in
> Yeshua.
Thoose words mean nothing apart from what you mean by them. If you mean
"I am saved by faith, but REAL faith means I keep the Law" you are lost
>
> Trust and obey.
If you mean what I think you do by that, you have mixed law and
grace/works and faith, and are on your way to hell with other messianics
>
> Rev.14:12 :Here is the patience of the Saints: here are they that
> keep the Commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua
There you go: "Faith PLUS keeping the law gets me into heaven"
I am afraid your words indicate you have no more salvation than the
judaisers who also believed Christ was messiah, and they should keep the
law
Linda Lee
> Thanks for comment, s4f!
>
> I'm far from ripping the Pauline letters out of my New Testament.
>
> I guess my question at this stage is, how far to trust Paul when he's
> reported to teach things that seem quite opposite to Yeshua's teachings. I
> don't feel that conflict with Luke or the other synoptic writers.
>
> Yes, Luke does track Paul in Acts. No question. But Luke doesn't really go
> beyond this to teach, What must we do to be saved? Paul does. Or seems to.
> Every book I read seems better at the middle (where I'm at now) than the
> end - so will reserve more comment for now.
>
> Blessings,
>
> Jochanan.
>
>
> news:6d682a1c-f733-44c9...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 22, 2:47 pm, "John Gardner" <gardner1...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > My copy of Del Tondo's book arrived a few days ago. I'm reading it with a
> > mixture of shock (at my complacent assumption that Paul's letters were
> > inspired scripture Just Because They're In The Canon), amazement (at the
> > flat-out contradictions between Yeshua's teachings and Paul's), and
> > ancticipation (at what comes next).
>
> > Briefly, Del Tondo makes a case that Paul/Saul/Sha'ul/Pavlvs of Tarsus was
> a
> > either a consistently false apostle or a genuine believer in Yeshua whose
> > mind was subsequently corrupted a la Baalam, leading him to teach moral
> > subjectivism and lawlessness on such matters as eating food sacrificed to
> > idols, fornication, etc.
>
> > I.m probably a first class idiot for valuing the opinions of contributors
> to
> > this ng, but I'd appreciate hearing any comments, second-guesses, etc.
> from
> > y'all about del Tondo's thesis as I plough thru the rest of his book.
> Second
> > impressions are sometimes more helpful than first ones (to me, at least).
>
> > Shalom!
>
> > John/Jochanan.
John, I don't know how you're accessing the newsgroups, through Google
Groups or through a newsreader like Thunderbird, so I was not sure
you'd see my response to singin4free's comments, so I'm posting my
reply to her directly to you.
As to your first post's comments on Paul teaching to eat things
sacrificed to idols (I Cor. 8:1-10), he says what he does about it
(that idols are nothing; it is okay if they are knowledgeable, but not
to do so in front of those "weak" in knowledge) because I _think_
David and his men at one time ate things sacrificed to idols because
they were in need of food. I am not positive and could not find it
just now, but perhaps someone else knows.
Regardless, Paul knew the elders had decided the Gentiles should
refrain from such acts (Acts 15:29 & Acts 21:25), and taught contrary
to what they had decided. (He sure was not a 'team player'.) And the
Spirit of the resurrected Messiah, God/Holy Spirit, criticized the
churches in Pergamos (Rev. 2:14) and in Thyatira (Rev. 2:20) saying,
"I have a few things against thee", which was that had among them
those that taught such a doctrine, which he said was casting a
"stumblingblock before the children of Israel".
>
>
> When you read the words of Yeshua, how do you think we got them? They
> are the testimony of the apostles. Jesus never wrote a book. We are
> reading the testimony of John, Peter, James and others who walked with
> him.
They didn't just "walk with him", they were trained by him before they
were sent to teach.
And no, the Messiah didn't write a book, he taught his apostles, for
over three years, the things he wanted taught to believers, so they
might be saved. I really _wonder WHY_ that isn't good enough for
some?
We all know Paul never met the Messiah during the Messiah's lifetime,
and was not among the apostles who were taught and trained.
> Luke seems to have interviewed others like Mary the mother of
> Jesus and people who were healed or had miracles happen to them.
What makes you think Luke didn't hear many things in the book of Acts
> If you can't trust the evangelists who wrote the gospels, you can't trust
> the testimony about Jesus either. But you can and you should. You can
> trust Luke, and therefore also Acts. If you can trust Acts you can
> trust Paul too. The campaign against Paul is false.
Do you think that Paul only taught the teachings of the Messiah? If
so, what makes you think he was necessary in that he added anything to
the teachings of God incarnate?
Either Paul taught additional things that the Messiah did not teach,
in which case Paul's teachings should be rejected as they are not the
teachings of the Messiah, or else Paul taught only what the Messiah
taught his true apostles to teach us, in which case he was
unnecessary, as the Messiah, God incarnate as the Saviour, taught
_everything_ that was required to obtain salvation.
> There is an agenda
> behind it. Don't trust the modern revisionists. Trust the Bible.
vince garcia
>
> Well, dah you go agin with the Indictments!
Absolutely! And your actions show why I do. It's almost beyond amazement
that a week after I posted the indictment, you go on to start
questioning if Paul's writings are legit--just as i outlined in that
post!
>
> I'm not reading this book as a messianic - just as a searcher for truth.
The fact you're even considering whether paul should be rejected shows
you presently DO NOT have the truth. And just as I questioned your
salvation based on what you were saying last week, this newest 'search
for truth' you articulate indicate even more you probably are not saved.
Saved people, who have Christ within them, do not question the veracity
of paul's writings because the spirit within them bears full witness to
their truth. That's rather what people deceived by satan do, and your
consistent questioning or denial of orthodoxy show the spirit behind you
is not of God, but of satan.
I don't say that to insult you; it's just plain truth. And I repeat--if
you continue down this road, IF you were ever saved, you will soon cross
the line
The
> "road" I'm on may well double back to an acclamation of Paul.
That would be great, but it might make very little difference, because
your words indicate you have missed, or are missing, the real gospel to
start with.
But keep us apprised.
Similarly, I
> may well read the Gospel of Thomas but not become a raving Gnostic.
>
> I'm just realizing at this stage of the adventure that there is an important
> distinction between (1) believing in Yeshua and (2) believing everything any
> "apostle" said about Him -- simply on the ground that some (probably
> apostate) Church Council in 3XX or 4XX accepted this "apostle" as the Real
> Deal..
>
> That's all!
>
Problem is, you don't grasp how serious what you're doing is, and that
the deception you are already under has given birth to it.
I know what you're doing makes sense to you. Deceived people always
think the deception they're walking in makes sense.
Linda Lee
> You're right. There's that possibility.
>
> The book of Hebrews sure raises lots of question -- but none [to me] of the
> magnitude of denying that YHWH personally gave the Torah so as to convert
> the seed of Abraham into Ishmael.
Denying it? Don't you mean something else?
>Which del Tondo reminds me that Paul did.
> In our Torah class a few weeks ago we went thru the Akedah passages & I
> learned that Islam not only reveres Ishmael, but believes that it was HIM,
> not Yitzhak, that Abraham bound.
Yes, the Muslims believe the Israelites stole the Promise from them.
>
> If you put that together with what Paul says the Law accomplishes, you get
> something close to the "Koranic" take on things -- a more dismal caven than
> I have the stomach to explore ...
The Scriptures do verify there were impostor Jews, as the Spirit of
the resurrected Messiah/Holy Spirit condemns those who claim to be
Jews, who are not, when he addresses the churches:
Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou
art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews,
and are NOT, but are the synagogue of Satan
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold,
the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried;
and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death,
and I will give thee a crown of life.
AND:
Rev. 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which
say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do lie; behold, I will make them
to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved
thee".
>
> Jochanan.----- Original Message -----
> From: "Linda Lee" <lindagirl...@juno.com>
vince garcia
>
> I'm not reading this book as a messianic - just as a searcher for truth. The
> "road" I'm on may well double back to an acclamation of Paul.
After thinking about it, I had to go back to what you said here.
Do you realize the arrogance of your statement?
With respect, who the heck do you think you are to set yourself up as
qualified, or as even having the right, to pass judgment on the new
testament writings of Paul, and whether they are canonical or not?
Linda Lee
I think we're getting hung up on semantics here. I think we would all
agree that there is no reason believers should not try to refrain from
sinning, i.e. things defined as sin in the Ten Commandments, right?
The apostle John explained it quite well, exhorting them not to sin,
and telling them what to do if they do sin - appeal to Christ, in
other words repent to him:
1Jn 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye
sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous".
And the Messiah confirms this, that he will forgive our sins:
Matt. 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and
blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the
Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men".
Linda Lee
> John Gardner wrote:
>
> > I'm not reading this book as a messianic - just as a searcher for truth. The
> > "road" I'm on may well double back to an acclamation of Paul.
>
> After thinking about it, I had to go back to what you said here.
>
> Do you realize the arrogance of your statement?
If someone is learning, the truth should prevail if they don't stop
learning. Although I've rejected Paul for over a decade, I myself am
still open to changing my mind about Paul if someone could just come
up with some believable defense of him. I always agree, 'It's a
woman's prerogative to change her mind'. Perhaps they'll excavate
some new buried texts that will support him.
>
> With respect, who the heck do you think you are to set yourself up as
> qualified, or as even having the right, to pass judgment on the new
> testament writings of Paul, and whether they are canonical or not?
What "right" did the early 'church fathers' have in the fourth century
who decided on what to canonize; they were only believers also, albeit
respected, hopefully knowledgeable, ones. The question is, were they
already becoming violent, as we all know the Catholic Church later
became, executing those who didn't agree to be dominated by them, and
did they canonize Paul's writings to biblically support their violence
as Christians? THAT is what I'd like to see some new-found texts
revealing; their motivation behind including Paul's writings.
singin4free
Linda,
We have a disagreement on this, and as you know we already hashed
it out a couple of years ago. I'd prefer not to get into that again. I
appreciate that you stand up for many of the other Christian doctrines
I hold to. But I'm a whole Bible believer, and I won't be changing my
mind on that. I find Paul's letters to be an inspired source of
spiritual wealth and guidance. I believe, that like the other
apostles, he teaches us the true way, and does not contradict the
Messiah at all, IMHO. I think that the fact that Luke tells us Yeshua
appeared to Paul directly and commissioned him should be enough
evidence that he is a true apostle of Yeshua. But I know you have a
problem with that.
- singin4free
vince garcia
Always a possibility, but when you examine the actual doctrine of
messianics, it usually that you MUST keep the torah or you are rejecting
the commandments of God.
And THEY don't define the torah as only the 10 commandments; they
believe all 613 are binding if you have the ability to observe them
I think we would all
> agree that there is no reason believers should not try to refrain from
> sinning, i.e. things defined as sin in the Ten Commandments, right?
Sure. The problem is making them "the law we MUST follow as a mandatory
covenant to be in right standing with God"
>
> The apostle John explained it quite well, exhorting them not to sin,
> and telling them what to do if they do sin - appeal to Christ, in
> other words repent to him:
> 1Jn 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye
> sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
> Jesus Christ the righteous".
>
> And the Messiah confirms this, that he will forgive our sins:
> Matt. 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and
> blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the
> Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men".
right. and even _I_ 'keep'* the 10 comamndments, in that I don't steal,
kill or commit adultery, and actually go to a saturday church.
But i repudiate them as any sort of binding covenant forensically tied
to justification or salvation.
* Meaning in a general sense. I still violate them on a moment by moment
basis by not keeping them perfectly in thought and deed, which is God's
standard apart from grace
John Gardner
Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and
examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
Hey, what d'ye know? They weren't relying on an NT canon .. which didn't
exist .. and was never prophesied in OT or NT to exist... They were actually
checking out Paul's teachings based on the OT!! (Interesting - no mention
that they ever DID decide that Paul's teachings were true.)
What presumption you show, garcia. If you weren't auch a spiritual
anti-semite, I'd give you credit for chutzpah. Where IN THE SCRIPTURES do
you find the Doctrine of Canonicity? Where IN THE SCRIPTURES do you find
Yeshua prophesying that after His resurrection He would commission a new
apostle to add something to what He taught to the Twelve for 3 years & was
crucified for?
You will appeal, because you can only appeal, to "Church history". In
effect, you have a bit of a Pantheon going. You put Yeshua up there (it's
part of your faith to call Him "Jesus", but you do put him there; and I
would put Him there, too); you revere the apostles, e.g. John, James, Peter,
whose writings we have; you revere a Thirteenth Apostle -- interesting,
Yeshua says in Rev. 21:14 of New Jerusalem: "The wall of the city had twelve
foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the
Lamb" -- and you revere the Church bishops who dictated the contents of the
NT canon 3 centuries after Yeshua's death. Apparently you put All of the
Above at about the same level. (You would've found many found many kindred
spirits in imperial Rome!)
Me, I like Berea..
John/Jochanan.
"vince garcia" <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4B321F...@ix.netcom.com...
singin4free
>
> news:4B321F...@ix.netcom.com...
>
> > John Gardner wrote:
>
> > > I'm not reading this book as a messianic - just as a searcher for truth.
> The
> > > "road" I'm on may well double back to an acclamation of Paul.
>
> > After thinking about it, I had to go back to what you said here.
>
> > Do you realize the arrogance of your statement?
>
> > With respect, who the heck do you think you are to set yourself up as
> > qualified, or as even having the right, to pass judgment on the new
> > testament writings of Paul, and whether they are canonical or not?
If a person is Berean, then Church history should be considered a good
source to dig into the truth.
John Gardner
It seems to me that a "Berean" searches the Scriptures for truth. A Berean
does what John urges in 1 John 4:1: "Dear friends, do not believe every
spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many
false prophets have gone out into the world."
Can we find truth or "test spirits" through Church history?
Much of that history, esp. Nicean and post-Nicean, has been marked by power
grabs, sterile dogmatism, intolerance, bloodshed and ignorance. You know as
well as I the source of the Crusades, the extermination of the Albigensians
& Lollards, the Inquisition, the various waves of persecution of Jews, the
persecution (and frequent murder) of Anabaptists by BOTH Catholic and
Protestant authorities... There is no need to go on.
If you could point to a single point in "Christian" history as a
watershed -- before then, we were inspired as a body of believers; after
then, not so much -- I would be interested. Or if you could characterize the
"Christian Church" as it now exists, in its fractured, fragmented,
infighting condition, with some factions doing same-sex marriages, some
worshipping Mary as Mediatrix, some aligning themselves with Red State or
Blue State politics ...if you truly believe tomorrow's children will get
some benefit out of considering our present-day Church history ... I'd be
interested.
I really don't want to provoke. (Incite, maybe, but not provoke ...).
In charity,
Jochanan/John.
"singin4free" <jffr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0b191f66-df4e-4bd1...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Terry Cross
The words and acts of Jesus show that Jesus repudiated every pillar of
Judaism. Paul tries to lead us back to Judaism.
Jesus repudiated the Law of Moses, divorce, Kosher, Sabbath, stoning,
Temple worship, hereditary priesthood, intermediaries between God and
Humanity, ritual and obedience before morals, animal sacrifice,
vengeance, and Jewish racism. Paul tries to restore those doctrines
to their former "splendor."
TCross
singin4free
That is the first time I've heard Paul accused of Judaizing. So now we
have Paul being attacked from both sides.
I don't see Jesus as repudiating the Law but both fulfilling it and
clarifying its essentials, showing what the life under the New
Covenant was to be. That life is lived according to the Spirit, not
the letter, but it does not contradict the letter. The letter may
kill, as Paul said, but it is not evil, it is good. It kills because
those who are under it cannot obey it. They need a new heart. They
need a new wineskin into which Christ pours His Spirit. The New
Covenant by faith, is Christ in you, the hope of glory. The new life
is lived out from the heart of those who are born again of the Spirit,
regenerated and made holy by the grace of God unto good works. The
kingdom of God is not meat and drink, it is righteousness, peace and
joy in the Holy Spirit. Those of course are Paul's words. His
understanding clarifies exactly what Jesus taught, with no
contradiction. He was a chosen vessel for the purpose of the gospel.
Terry Cross
Jesus did not prophecy about Paul. Jesus did not tell his followers
(as does Pauline Christianity), "I am too hard to understand and I
cannot make myself understood, but wait a bit and a Pharisee will be
along to explain to you what I am trying to say."
That would be a bit odd, don't you think?
Moses had a man killed for violating the Sabbath. Jesus said the
Sabbath was made for man, not vice versa. If Jesus is right, Moses
was in error. But Moses said Jehovah told him to do it, showing that
Jehovah is in error -- or the Old Testament is in error.
You must choose between Jesus and Moses. I choose Jesus. Whom do you
choose?
TCross
singin4free
Bereans were noble because they listened and checked things out, and
were humble enough to listen to reason (Paul's reason, by the way). It
so happened that it was the scriptures that they were searching
because that is what Paul was teaching from. But it is still noble to
consider what the early church believed, and understand the faith that
has been handed down from them to us. After all we have it because of
them, and without them we would have no scriptures. They preserved
them for us, revered them and handed them down to us. Although I think
you are correct in observing that church history is filled with
failures and factions, remember that there has always been a church
that Jesus told us the gates of hell would not stand against. So there
must be that church in the world still, no? And that church belongs to
Jesus Christ. If I am looking for that church what do I look for? I
don't look to man's organizations or buildings. I look for those
people who share my common experience of knowing Jesus Christ and
being born again by faith.
Church history and/or, the writings of the church Fathers are good for
clarifying what the early church believed, and for nailing down what
the meaning of the scriptures is. The early church is where I look for
true Christianity. The church could not have passed away after
Constantine or any other event, because Jesus said the gates of hell
would not prevail against the church. So, it has been here all along
and will be until He returns. Remember that Jesus told us there would
be false teachers and falling away from the faith. It should not be a
surprise, then, that we have such things as you mentioned about the
state of Christianity today. That does not mean there is not a true
church still in the world. As Jesus taught, there will be tares among
the wheat. But the wheat is still the wheat.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<tcro...@hotmail.com> spake thusly:
>Jesus did not prophecy about Paul. Jesus did not tell his followers
>(as does Pauline Christianity), "I am too hard to understand and I
>cannot make myself understood, but wait a bit and a Pharisee will be
>along to explain to you what I am trying to say."
You are so dumb and so arrogant, that you think
that something as complex as what Jesus taught
in revealing the mysteries of the Old Testament,
are supposed to be like reading an Archie comic!
You know DAMN WELL that you wouldn't expect
ANY other writing with such intricate complexities
to be so simple! But hey, when it comes to the
Bible, either it reads like a moron's guide to God,
or there's something wrong with it!
You are an idiot, plain and simple!
Here we are, reading something that involves
our eternal salvation, that we DO NOT deserve,
but hey, it should all be like reading a comic, right?!
You idiot!!!
> You must choose between Jesus and Moses...
No, YOU THINK that choice must be made!
But then again, you are an idiot who thinks
he knows it all and hasn't a clue!
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
Life has many choices. Eternity has two. What's yours?
singin4free
I choose the one Moses chooses. That is Jesus. God honored Moses by
letting him appear on the Mount with Jesus, although Jesus is his
beloved Son, over his own house, and Moses was a servant. However,
Jesus does not contradict Moses. He came to establish the New
Covenant. And Moses did not have those things done as you said. He
simply gave the Law that God gave to him. So if you want to blame
someone for the Law you need to blame God, not Moses. The Law is good
but it was a schoolmaster until the time was ripe for the coming of
Jesus. In Christ all old things are passed away and all things become
new. God gave Israel a covenant through Moses, so the Law is good. But
God also promised a new covenant, in which the Law would be written on
the hearts of men and not on tablets of stone. That covenant is by
faith in Jesus.
John Gardner
I would go with Rev. 15, where "those who had been victorious over the beast
and his image and over the number of his name" are pictured singing
"the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and
marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways,
King of the ages....".
Jesus came to "fill up"; :fulfill", "perfect" the Law (Gk. verb plero-o),
not to abolish or destroy it - Matt. 5:17-20:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have
not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until
heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of
a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is
accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and
teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,
but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the
kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses
that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not
enter the kingdom of heaven."
Yes, Jesus healed on the Shabbat [which neither Moses nor anyone else said
was WORK, in any case], but He never profaned that day or taught others to
profane it.
Jochanan/John
"Terry Cross" <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2c6b83f-fba7-40bf...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com...
vince garcia
>
> Acts 17:11 - "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
> Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and
> examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
>
> Hey, what d'ye know? They weren't relying on an NT canon .. which didn't
> exist .. and was never prophesied in OT or NT to exist... They were actually
> checking out Paul's teachings based on the OT!! (Interesting - no mention
> that they ever DID decide that Paul's teachings were true.)
>
> What presumption you show, garcia. If you weren't auch a spiritual
> anti-semite, I'd give you credit for chutzpah.
Anti-semite? Because I reject the bullshit messianic religion you
embrace? thank you for the compliment.
I'm not anti-semtic, however. I love and support the jews.
But YOU'RE 'religion' i do denounce as a sewage, yes.
It has nothig to do with judaism. It is apostasy both on Christian and
jewish levels.
Where IN THE SCRIPTURES do
> you find the Doctrine of Canonicity? Where IN THE SCRIPTURES do you find
> Yeshua prophesying that after His resurrection He would commission a new
> apostle to add something to what He taught to the Twelve for 3 years & was
> crucified for?
>
> You will appeal, because you can only appeal, to "Church history". In
> effect, you have a bit of a Pantheon going. You put Yeshua up there (it's
> part of your faith to call Him "Jesus", but you do put him there; and I
> would put Him there, too); you revere the apostles, e.g. John, James, Peter,
> whose writings we have; you revere a Thirteenth Apostle -- interesting,
> Yeshua says in Rev. 21:14 of New Jerusalem: "The wall of the city had twelve
> foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the
> Lamb" -- and you revere the Church bishops who dictated the contents of the
> NT canon 3 centuries after Yeshua's death. Apparently you put All of the
> Above at about the same level. (You would've found many found many kindred
> spirits in imperial Rome!)
>
> Me, I like Berea..
>
I suggest you keep walking down this path then, reject paul, cleave to
the Law, and prove every point I made about messianic heretics.
John Gardner
restoring sight, etc. was "work"/"avodah" contrary to Shabbat.
I meant to say, no-one WITH REAL SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY taught this.
The Torah certainly permits the rescue of animals in wells, etc. on Shabbat.
I know that the Pharisees and some others went beyond what the Torah
actually says. But in this regard, they were teaching traditions of men,
not the enduring Torah - which Yeshua clarified, upheld, and more than once
rendered even stricter, e.g. in what He said about lust in the heart,
murderous thoughts, etc.
John/Jochanan
"John Gardner" <gardn...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:lpvYm.93401$We2....@newsfe09.iad...
Linda Lee
I think it's a plain fact that the Messiah's words should be our only
inspiration for spiritual wealth and guidance.
.
> I believe, that like the other
> apostles, he teaches us the true way, and does not contradict the
> Messiah at all, IMHO. I think that the fact that Luke tells us Yeshua
> appeared to Paul directly and commissioned him should be enough
> evidence that he is a true apostle of Yeshua. But I know you have a
> problem with that.
>
> - singin4free
We don't have to go into it at length, but you should consider the
question, Do you think that Paul only taught the teachings of the
Linda Lee
I don't see how anyone could even remember 613 commandments. Those who
call themselves Messianics seem to vary on what they consider
commandments. In fact, recently I looked at a messianic website to see
what is considered obedience to the law and it was not clear at all; I
still do not know what the author considered commandments. And I just
looked again, and it is very vague on this point.
Linda Lee
What you fail to see is that the Messiah's words do not need
clarification; his was a perfect teaching.
You seem well-schooled in the teachings of Paul, but not so much in
the teachings of the Messiah.
You rarely quote the Messiah; Paul is sufficient for you, and it
should not be that way.
Terry Cross
The 613 commandments were not defined as such until 1000 after the
death of Jesus. And they were defined by the Talmud Jews, not
Covenant Jews: "Although there have been many attempts to codify and
enumerate the commandments contained in the Torah, the traditional
view is based on Maimonides' enumeration." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
So which religion are these Messianics following? The teachings of
Jesus, or the doctrines of the Pharisees who had him crucified?
Are these Messianics returning to animal sacrifice, too? If not, they
are not following the Law of Moses. If so, they are not following
Jesus, who forbade the blood-spattering and all that during the riot
in the Temple.
The commandments for sacrificial rites count to many more than 613.
And then you get silly duplications to pad out the numbers, such as
593 That the Nazarite shall permit his hair to grow (Num. 6:5)
(affirmative).
594 That the Nazarite shall not cut his hair (Num. 6:5) (negative).
For a list, see http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
TCross
Linda Lee
That is ironic since II Peter said all of Paul's epistles are "hard to
be understood".
I think people pride themselves on being able to decipher Paul's
rambling contradictions and being able to come up with highly
improbable excuses for his glaring immorality. 'Understanding' the
"hard to be understood" Paul is a source of pride. It's a sick
relationship; like a battered woman 'understanding' her abusive
immoral mate's behavior. I understand Paul's writings, but I make no
excuses for him, and I don't like what I see.
>
> That would be a bit odd, don't you think?
>
> Moses had a man killed for violating the Sabbath. Jesus said the
> Sabbath was made for man, not vice versa. If Jesus is right, Moses
> was in error. But Moses said Jehovah told him to do it, showing that
> Jehovah is in error -- or the Old Testament is in error.
>
> You must choose between Jesus and Moses. I choose Jesus. Whom do you
> choose?
Many have chosen Paul over the Messiah.
>
> TCross
singin4free
Obviously you've missed a few of my posts. No matter.
Paul is not sufficient but he is necessary for me. How could anyone
reject the wonderful writings of the blessed apostle Paul, a servant
of the Lord Jesus Christ? His sufferings for the faith were
monumental, and he willingly gave his life for the gospel. And today
revisionists want to discredit him and they don't even know anything
about him except what their propagandist teachers tell them, much of
it distorted or just false. No thanks, I will stick with the whole
Bible. If you want to toss out the treasure of Paul that is your
choice, but I would never do that any more than I would toss gold into
the sea.
Linda Lee
Maimonides is really a strange one to be so revered by the Jews, since
he partnered with a Muslim sage and revered Aristotle, a Gentile (see
the second paragraph following).
"Moses Maimonides, also known as Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon or the acronym
the Rambam (Hebrew: רבי משה בן מימון; Hebrew acronym: רמב"ם; Arabic:
موسى ابن ميمون Mūsā ibn Maymūn, short for أبو عمران موسى بن عبيد
الله ميمون القرطبي Abū ʿImrān Mūsā bin ʿUbaidallāh Maimūn al-Qurṭubī),
was born in Cordoba, Spain on March 30, 1135, and died in Egypt on
December 13, 1204.[6][7]
He was the preeminent medieval Jewish philosopher and one of the
greatest Torah scholars of the Middle Ages. He worked as a rabbi,
physician, and philosopher in Spain, Morocco and Egypt. ___With the
contemporary Muslim sage Averroes, he promoted and developed the
philosophical tradition of Aristotle.___ As a result, Maimonides and
Averroes would gain a prominent and controversial influence in the
West, where Aristotelian thought had been lost for centuries. Albert
the Great and Thomas Aquinas were notable Western readers of
Maimonides.
One of the central tenets of Maimonides's philosophy is that it is
impossible for the truths arrived at by human intellect to contradict
those revealed by God. Maimonides held to a strictly apophatic
theology in which only negative statements toward a description of God
may be considered correct. Thus, one does not say "God is One", but
rather, "God is not multiple".[8] Although many of his ideas met with
the opposition of his contemporaries, Maimonides was embraced by later
Jewish thinkers. The fourteen-volume Mishneh Torah today retains
canonical authority as a codification of Talmudic law.
Although his copious works on Jewish law and ethics were initially met
with opposition during his lifetime, he was posthumously acknowledged
to be one of the foremost rabbinical arbiters and philosophers in
Jewish history. Today, his works and his views are considered a
cornerstone of Jewish thought and study." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides
"The Mishneh Torah (Hebrew: משנה תורה, "Repetition of the Torah")
subtitled Sefer Yad ha-Chazaka (יד החזקה "Book of the Strong Hand,")
is a code of Jewish religious law (Halakha) authored by Maimonides
(Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, also known as RaMBaM or "Rambam"), one of
history's foremost rabbis. The Mishneh Torah was compiled between 1170
and 1180, while Maimonides was living in Egypt, and is regarded as
Maimonides' magnum opus. Accordingly, later sources simply refer to
the work as "Maimon", "Maimonides" or "RaMBaM", although Maimonides
composed other works.
Mishneh Torah consists of fourteen books, subdivided into sections,
chapters, and paragraphs. It is the only Medieval-era work that
details all of Jewish observance, including those laws that are only
applicable when the Holy Temple is in existence, and remains an
important work in Judaism." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishneh_Torah
>
> So which religion are these Messianics following? The teachings of
> Jesus, or the doctrines of the Pharisees who had him crucified?
>
> Are these Messianics returning to animal sacrifice, too?
No, only because there is no temple; otherwise, judging from their
websites, they would be. It sounds like they're practicing Judaism,
plus they believe the Messiah was God.
> If not, they
> are not following the Law of Moses.
> If so, they are not following
> Jesus, who forbade the blood-spattering and all that during the riot
> in the Temple.
>
> The commandments for sacrificial rites count to many more than 613.
> And then you get silly duplications to pad out the numbers, such as
> 593 That the Nazarite shall permit his hair to grow (Num. 6:5)
> (affirmative).
> 594 That the Nazarite shall not cut his hair (Num. 6:5) (negative).
>
> For a list, seehttp://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
>
> TCross
The difference seems to be, with the situation with Moses, God was
'with' the people, but Moses had to govern them with countless laws
and statutes, and they had to prove they worshipped God with physical
acts i.e. sacrificial rituals, just as the pagans did with their
'gods'.
As to the Messiah and his followers, they are 'baptized with the Holy
Spirit', and the indwelling Holy Spirit is what acts on their
consciences, exerting some 'guidance', so that they are led to govern
themselves, and their prayers are to be offered in spirit in
seclusion, rather than in open rituals. So with Moses, it was all
physical; with the Messiah, it is all spiritual.
Linda Lee
> On Dec 23, 8:25 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 23, 3:07 pm, singin4free <jffry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You rarely quote the Messiah; Paul is sufficient for you, and it
> > should not be that way.
>
> Obviously you've missed a few of my posts. No matter.
> Paul is not sufficient but he is necessary for me. How could anyone
> reject the wonderful writings of the blessed apostle Paul,
Him being "necessary" is even worse. You've answered this yourself;
you just love some of the writings attributed to him; he is not
"necessary" for you at all.
And many of Paul's most famous sayings come from the OT; like his
helmet of salvation speech is based on writings from Isaiah. And you
say that Paul doesn't teach falsely? Yes, he does; the famous helmet
of salvation speech in Isaiah is about God incarnate as the Messiah;
HE is who puts on the helmet of salvation. In Paul's twist on it, it
is BELIEVERS who each put on the helmet of salvation. That is WRONG,
as wrong as it gets.
Now THIS concerning God symbolically 'clothing' Himself in coming to
us as the Saviour is some beautiful writing:
sa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh
himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there
was no judgment.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there
was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and
his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet
of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance
for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Isn't this beautiful enough to make you cry?
Mat 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and
when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of
heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after
righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the
children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness'
sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute
you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my
sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in
heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mat 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his
savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for
nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill
cannot be hid.
Mat 5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel,
but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the
house.
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your
good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
> a servant
> of the Lord Jesus Christ? His sufferings for the faith were
> monumental, and he willingly gave his life for the gospel.
Paul is the one who said all that. If I told you how much I've
suffered for the faith, how much energy I'd expended, how I'd give my
life for it, would you revere me? Paul's own commendation of himself
is not a good reason to revere Paul. Who else ever says anything like
that about Paul? No one.
> And today
> revisionists want to discredit him and they don't even know anything
> about him except what their propagandist teachers tell them, much of
> it distorted or just false.
You're just telling yourself that. I learned about Paul from his own
writings and the writings of Luke and II Peter; that was it, no
outside input, and even about nine years ago there were hardly any
articles anti-Paul on the Internet. I know because I searched for
them.
When you and I discussed Paul at length, there were no excuses for the
points I brought up against Paul; the same thing with Suzanne. We
argued for two years daily about Paul (and I think Suzanne is a good
Christian, a nice person, and God speaks to her), but she had nothing
of any substance to defend Paul. He was just 'in the canon'. Finally,
she and I began e-mailing each other, and she told me that God had
told her not to argue with me any more about Paul and that I was just
trying to get people to read the Bible. And this was how I knew God
spoke to her; because I'd never told anyone here that was and is my
goal - to get people to read the Bible for themselves instead of
relying upon others to tell them what it says. And I believe God had
her tell me that He told her to quit arguing with me about Paul. Now
this told me I am right about Paul. Suzanne told me she thought this
meant I would come around to accepting Paul (but not that God told her
that). That is not likely - I was raised on an acceptance of Paul, and
have rejected him now for about 15 years, and the evidence keeps
piling up against him.
> No thanks, I will stick with the whole
> Bible.
> If you want to toss out the treasure of Paul that is your
> choice, but I would never do that any more than I would toss gold into
> the sea.
I am very sad to hear that because the Messiah said, "For where your
treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matt. 6:21). Your
treasure should be in the sayings of the Messiah, so that you love him
with your whole heart and mind and soul. Meditate on this.
Merry Christmas, singin4free!
ruth
> TCross- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Did Moses lie when he said that God told him that the man was to be
killed?
Remember that Moses wrote the Torah which Yeshua used to answer
hasatan even.
It was God who said to kill the man carrying sticks on the Sabbath.
It was God who struck down Uzzah and those who challenged Moses and
Aaron and Saphira also.
And Yeshua and that God who did those things are one!
Your problem is between the Father and the Son.
Remember also what Yeshua said, "Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the Kingdom
of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven. 22 Many
will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in
Your Name, cast out demons in Your Name, and done many wonders in Your
Name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart
from Me, you who practice the Law-lessness!’
In Zech.14, YHVH comes in the end days. But Yeshua says that He, the
Son is coming.
Ruth
singin4free
Merry Christmas Linda.
vince garcia
> > Always a possibility, but when you examine the actual doctrine of
> > messianics, it usually that you MUST keep the torah or you are rejecting
> > the commandments of God.
> >
> > And THEY don't define the torah as only the 10 commandments; they
> > believe all 613 are binding if you have the ability to observe them
>
> I don't see how anyone could even remember 613 commandments.
Orthodox can tell you them. But only 180 or so apply today, + the
rabbinic ordinaces.
Those who
> call themselves Messianics seem to vary on what they consider
> commandments.
Because they're all a bunch of scripture-twisting hypocrites who can't
get their act straight. MOST that i've seen claim the same law the
orthodox follow, minus the rabbinic stuff, applies to them.
But do they keep those comamdnments? Heck no. As i have repeatedly
pointed out, 99.9% don't keep the sabbath as ordered to, but keep it
like reforms or SDAs.
But they;'ll go on about how God comamnds everyone to keep the law, and
how great the law is.
They just duck the more inconvenient aspects of it.
Hypocrites.
In fact, recently I looked at a messianic website to see
> what is considered obedience to the law and it was not clear at all; I
> still do not know what the author considered commandments. And I just
> looked again, and it is very vague on this point.
Perhaps the guy is stumped because he's a little more honest than most
messianics, and he's seeing that the NT isn't lining up with his
theology, so he'd not sure what he HAS to do because there are some
parts he can't legitimately get around (like circumcision). So if the
whole law applies, as he wants to think, but yet he's confronted with
verses he sees that say you DON'T have to keep this or that, he's
getting confused
Linda Lee
I don't see any confirmation in the New Testament Scriptures that by
obedience to "the Law", Christ meant all 613 precepts in the five
books of Moses or even most of them, so I think Messianics are
mistaken if that is the belief. When the Messiah is asked specifically
how to obtain eternal life, and replies, "obey the commandments",
"follow me", and give to the poor, he only mentions the commandments
contained in the Ten Commandments.
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what
good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept
from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell
that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in
heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away
sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Following hundreds upon hundreds of 'commandments' is not hardly the
'easy yoke' Christ offered, is it?
The Messiah said:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I
will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and
lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
vince garcia
>
>
> I don't see any confirmation in the New Testament Scriptures that by
> obedience to "the Law", Christ meant all 613 precepts in the five
> books of Moses or even most of them, so I think Messianics are
> mistaken if that is the belief.
Just ask the messianics here to show you how that's the case. They'll be
glad to...and when they do you can see how they:
1. Misunderstand the Scriptures.
2. Distort the Scriptures.
But they'll be glad to show you. Ruth just affirmed in her last post to
me that God wants jew and gentile to be torah observant, referring me
to Numbers 15:30-31 and Daniel 7:25-27 to warn how it's heresy to
suggest the full law could be changed or done away with.
Do you see now see why I say we're NOT just arguing semantics with
messianics, but dealing with essentials of the faith on the basis of
justification?
When the Messiah is asked specifically
> how to obtain eternal life, and replies, "obey the commandments",
> "follow me", and give to the poor, he only mentions the commandments
> contained in the Ten Commandments.
The point should be made the the jews have never seen the 10 apart from
the 613. The remaining 603 show how to keep the 10 in their view
>
> Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what
> good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
> Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
> none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
> keep the commandments.
> Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
> murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
> shalt not bear false witness,
> Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
> neighbour as thyself.
> Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept
> from my youth up: what lack I yet?
> Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell
> that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in
> heaven: and come and follow me.
> Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away
> sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
>
> Following hundreds upon hundreds of 'commandments' is not hardly the
> 'easy yoke' Christ offered, is it?
Of course not! But they'll just go post OT verses about the Law being a
delight, and so forth, to refute your point, then twist paul's words in
romans and say he teaches that thru faith we establish (and thus learn
how to keep) the FULL Law, when he was meaning something completely
different.
All these errors are the heresies of messianic judaism
Linda Lee
> > obedience to "the Law", Christ meant all 613 precepts in the five
> > books of Moses or even most of them, so I think Messianics are
> > mistaken if that is the belief.
>
> Just ask the messianics here to show you how that's the case. They'll be
> glad to...and when they do you can see how they:
>
> 1. Misunderstand the Scriptures.
> 2. Distort the Scriptures.
>
> But they'll be glad to show you. Ruth just affirmed in her last post to
> me that God wants jew and gentile to be torah observant, referring me
> to Numbers 15:30-31 and Daniel 7:25-27 to warn how it's heresy to
> suggest the full law could be changed or done away with.
>
> Do you see now see why I say we're NOT just arguing semantics with
> messianics, but dealing with essentials of the faith on the basis of
> justification?
If one person means one thing by "the Law" and another means something
entirely different, that is not just semantics. I guess what is meant
by the term "the Law" needs to be defined by anyone wanting to discuss
it.
>
> When the Messiah is asked specifically
>
> > how to obtain eternal life, and replies, "obey the commandments",
> > "follow me", and give to the poor, he only mentions the commandments
> > contained in the Ten Commandments.
>
> The point should be made the the jews have never seen the 10 apart from
> the 613. The remaining 603 show how to keep the 10 in their view
>
>
I have seen some passages that I realized sounded like they applied to
the Ten Commandments and were a detailed explanation of them. I think
with the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling Holy Spirit's
guidance though, those guidelines would not be necessary to consult in
deciding how to apply the Ten Commandments as we encounter different
circumstances. The Holy Spirit's prodding of our conscience seems
pretty active at most times and hard to ignore when you might prefer
an 'easier' way sometimes.
>
>
>
> > Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what
> > good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
> > Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
> > none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
> > keep the commandments.
> > Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
> > murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
> > shalt not bear false witness,
> > Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
> > neighbour as thyself.
> > Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept
> > from my youth up: what lack I yet?
> > Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell
> > that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in
> > heaven: and come and follow me.
> > Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away
> > sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
>
> > Following hundreds upon hundreds of 'commandments' is not hardly the
> > 'easy yoke' Christ offered, is it?
>
> Of course not! But they'll just go post OT verses about the Law being a
> delight, and so forth, to refute your point, then twist paul's words in
> romans and say he teaches that thru faith we establish (and thus learn
> how to keep) the FULL Law, when he was meaning something completely
> different.
And by "FULL Law", you mean 613 'commandments', right?
Aaron
<vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>John Gardner wrote:
>>
>> Acts 17:11 - "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
>> Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and
>> examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
>>
>> Hey, what d'ye know? They weren't relying on an NT canon .. which didn't
>> exist .. and was never prophesied in OT or NT to exist... They were actually
>> checking out Paul's teachings based on the OT!! (Interesting - no mention
>> that they ever DID decide that Paul's teachings were true.)
>>
>> What presumption you show, garcia. If you weren't auch a spiritual
>> anti-semite, I'd give you credit for chutzpah.
>
>Anti-semite? Because I reject the bullshit messianic religion you
>embrace? thank you for the compliment.
>
>
>I'm not anti-semtic, however. I love and support the jews.
Vince, you have constantly posted antisemitic things and based your
religious beliefs on anti-semitism. You repeatedly denounce what
messiah taught in the Bible because it is "too Jewish" for your
bigotry.
Judaism, specifically Messianic Judaism, is the religion taught in the
New Testament; Messiah taught against the theological doctrines that
separate Christianity from Judaism. Messiah taught against idolatry
in the form of "Messiah worship;" He taught against antinomianism,
teaching that all 613 Commandments are in full effect "until Heaven
and Earth pass away and everything has happened."
You keep trying to dejudaize Yshu`a, and His Talmidim as well as Rabbi
Shaul. According to Rabbi Shaul, in Second Thessalonians, Chapter
Two, your theology is the defining characteristic of Armillus (the
Anti-Messiah).
***SNIP***
doug delt
> My copy of Del Tondo's book arrived a few days ago. I'm reading it with a
> mixture of shock (at my complacent assumption that Paul's letters were
> inspired scripture Just Because They're In The Canon), amazement (at the
> flat-out contradictions between Yeshua's teachings and Paul's), and
> ancticipation (at what comes next).
>
> Briefly, Del Tondo makes a case that Paul/Saul/Sha'ul/Pavlvs of Tarsus was a
> either a consistently false apostle or a genuine believer in Yeshua whose
> mind was subsequently corrupted a la Baalam, leading him to teach moral
> subjectivism and lawlessness on such matters as eating food sacrificed to
> idols, fornication, etc.
>
> I.m probably a first class idiot for valuing the opinions of contributors to
> this ng, but I'd appreciate hearing any comments, second-guesses, etc. from
> y'all about del Tondo's thesis as I plough thru the rest of his book. Second
> impressions are sometimes more helpful than first ones (to me, at least).
>
> Shalom!
>
> John/Jochanan.
Hi all,
This is the author of Jesus Words Only that Mr. Gardner discussed.
I will comment on several points raised by many on this blog topic.
1. I take the position that the Law given Moses by God had one scope
for Israel and one scope for those in sojourn with Israel, because
indeed, esp in Lev. 17-22, Moses uses those two distinctions, and
several commnands vary for sojourners. These commands applicable to
sojourners (which we might as well call Gentiles) essentially are (a)
8 of the 10 commandmnts and (b) the sexual morality laws. Because of
Jesus remarks to the young rich man, I think it best to just say the
10 commandments apply to all NT christians, as well as all sojourner
commands in the Hebrew Scriptures.
2. Thus, when Jesus says those who teach us to follow the Law are the
greatest in the kingdom, but those who teach you not to follow are the
least (an hebraism meaning they are not in the kingdom at all, but the
furthest possible distance away from the kingdom), is a reference to
these varying scopes. (Matt. 5:17-19). When Jesus says do not put old
wine into new wineskins,He means do not put on sojourners/gentles
commands that God gave only Israel.
3. To those who say that one can simply treat Paul as equal to Jesus'
words in authority, I advance that the NT teachers Jesus is the sole
teacher (Matt 23:8,10,) Jesus actual words are "the apostolos
(apostle) is not greater than the one who sends him." (transl
typically as "the one sent" instead of "apostle." But indeed it is
"apostle." I think there is a message there.
4. Paul does teach many things difficult to understand, and in my view
often contradictory of Jesus. The most important, and central conflict
for me, is over salvation. While Jesus clearly teaches salvation for a
believer by justification by repentance (the Publican goes home
justified; "repent or perish" in Luke 15; "heaven maimed or hell
whole" in Mark 9:42-47), Paul is viewed to teach in Romans 4:3-5 that
Abraham was justified without repentance and while "ungodly" by simply
being a believer. That is an oversimplification of their difference,
but I think that summarizes a key issue for me.
5. Paul is all over the map in statements, affirming many statements
that are contradictory of themselves. I am not the only one to see
this, but famous pastors did so...William Paley, a famous pastor in
the 1800s, whose book I post at www.jesuswordsonly.com .... Paley
explains Paul's faith alone verses are at odds with his many doctrines
that seem to say one loses their inheritance in heaven for misbehavior
of ethics that appear in the Law. Paley says that Paul must be
construed consistent with himself, and if impossible, Jesus must trump
Paul. My point exactly. Yet, look at the church today ... faith alone
is so dominant that most Chrisitans believe in eternal security (I
know I did in reliance on Paul), but Jesus says one's assurance comes
from "following" and "listening" to Him in which case no one can
"pluck you from my hand." John 10:27-29.
Thus, it does make a big difference whether you follow only the words
of Jesus. Or you add Paul. As Second Peter warns many have "fallen
from their steadfastness in Christ" due to the "difficult to
understand" verses in Paul which like people misconstrue other
"Scripture" leads those who have "accepted Christ" to have been
better off "never to have accepted Christ" than to have
"accepted" (epignoseo) Christ and then fall into sin. The term
"Scripture" in those days referred to the Writings section in the
Septuagint Bible -- divided Law, Prophets and Writings (trans. as
Scripture in English). The Writings section was deemed to be not clear
and proper to base doctrine upon, and hence "Scripture" was able to be
misunderstood and should never be used to upset doctrines clear in the
Torah and Prophets. This is what Second Peter is saying. If you study
the tri-partite division of Canon by Jews of the Hebrew Bible, only
the Pharisees treated the Scripture section as authoritative as the
Law and Prophets, while the Saducees and Samaritans said the Scripture
section was sometimes inspired, sometimes not. (See knol article on
"The Writings Section"). Hence, Second Peter is a sober warning about
Paul -- the same one I am conveying.
Let's stick with Yeshua, who said He was our "sole teacher" (Matt
25:8,10), who commanded the "apostolos is not more important than the
ONE who sends him."
Blessings at this time of year to all here. Doug D.
vince garcia
>
> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:58:05 -0800, vince garcia
> <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >John Gardner wrote:
> >>
> >> Acts 17:11 - "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
> >> Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and
> >> examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
> >>
> >> Hey, what d'ye know? They weren't relying on an NT canon .. which didn't
> >> exist .. and was never prophesied in OT or NT to exist... They were actually
> >> checking out Paul's teachings based on the OT!! (Interesting - no mention
> >> that they ever DID decide that Paul's teachings were true.)
> >>
> >> What presumption you show, garcia. If you weren't auch a spiritual
> >> anti-semite, I'd give you credit for chutzpah.
> >
> >Anti-semite? Because I reject the bullshit messianic religion you
> >embrace? thank you for the compliment.
> >
> >
> >I'm not anti-semtic, however. I love and support the jews.
>
> Vince, you have constantly posted antisemitic things and based your
> religious beliefs on anti-semitism.
"Watch out, Jew--the Klan's comin' for YOU!"
"Remember the oven--your time is a-comin'!"
THAT'S anti-semitism.
Conversely, I fanatically love and support the jews (and am ready to go
to war for them), but I (correctly) deny and denounce the religion as
incapable of keeping you out of hell, because its foundation is cleaving
to the law, while rejecting Christ as the atonement for sin.
That is biblical truth, not anti-semitism, and I have been 100%--not
99%--consistent in presenting both support for israel and the jews as a
people and nation, while making no politically correct compromise on the
infinite superiority of Christianity to the religious system of rabbinic
judaism.
Even worse than that is the apostasy of your version of 'messianic
judaism' which pollutes the true gospel by offering a hybrid heresy that
denies essentials of the Christian faith almost across the board.
John is a great example here lately, who now is denouncing the writings
of paul, and coming to reject half the NT he doesn't think lines up with
the gospels.
Yet you expect me to HONOR that sort of religion???
If rejecting and denouncing that religion is anti-semitic, i eagerly
accept the charge.
You repeatedly denounce what
> messiah taught in the Bible because it is "too Jewish" for your
> bigotry.
No, i repeatedly rightly divide the word of truth, and denounce
messianic heresies, which deny the teaching of the NT, and pervert what
it does say into something it does not say.
John is starting to see that, while you remain blind. HE is now
understanding that the writings of PAUL denounce the theology you claim
is truth, and--in keeping with true sincerity--is coming to reject those
writings in order to embrace the torah observance of the "yeshua" he
follows, that he also limits to the teachings He taught under the Law
and before the resurrection and new covenant.
He is joining Snow on my list of honest people, while you're still on
the Dishonest list, cuz you pervert Paul's words into supporting your
false doctrines.
>
> Judaism, specifically Messianic Judaism, is the religion taught in the
> New Testament; Messiah taught against the theological doctrines that
> separate Christianity from Judaism. Messiah taught against idolatry
> in the form of "Messiah worship;" He taught against antinomianism,
> teaching that all 613 Commandments are in full effect "until Heaven
> and Earth pass away and everything has happened."
And every word you say there is apostasy, and a rejection of the
Christian faith.
That's why I call it 'sewage'.
>
> You keep trying to dejudaize Yshu`a, and His Talmidim as well as Rabbi
> Shaul.
There is no such person as "Rabbi Shaul"; that character did not and
does not exist. Ever.
Snow
Good posting Doug. I would point out that the Messiah does quote
Moses and several prophets, especially Isaiah and the Psalms heavily
and to me, thats a stamp of approval.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he
wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my
words?
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the
prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
dead.
Aaron
<vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Aaron wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:58:05 -0800, vince garcia
>> <vggar...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >John Gardner wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Acts 17:11 - "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the
>> >> Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and
>> >> examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."
>> >>
>> >> Hey, what d'ye know? They weren't relying on an NT canon .. which didn't
>> >> exist .. and was never prophesied in OT or NT to exist... They were actually
>> >> checking out Paul's teachings based on the OT!! (Interesting - no mention
>> >> that they ever DID decide that Paul's teachings were true.)
>> >>
>> >> What presumption you show, garcia. If you weren't auch a spiritual
>> >> anti-semite, I'd give you credit for chutzpah.
>> >
>> >Anti-semite? Because I reject the bullshit messianic religion you
>> >embrace? thank you for the compliment.
>> >
>> >
>> >I'm not anti-semtic, however. I love and support the jews.
>>
>> Vince, you have constantly posted antisemitic things and based your
>> religious beliefs on anti-semitism.
>
>
>"Watch out, Jew--the Klan's comin' for YOU!"
>"Remember the oven--your time is a-comin'!"
>
>THAT'S anti-semitism.
And exactly the type of thing you keep posting.
>
>Conversely, I fanatically love and support the jews (and am ready to go
>to war for them), but I (correctly) deny and denounce the religion as
>incapable of keeping you out of hell, because its foundation is cleaving
>to the law, while rejecting Christ as the atonement for sin.
Vince you hate Jews so much you try to claim that Yshu`a should not be
called by His real name, that Rabbi Shaul was not a rabbi, that
Messiah taught a religion other than Judaism. You hate Jews so much
that you desperately try to dejudaize the Jewish faith that Messiah
taught. All of your claims are false and can only be motivated by
antisemitism.
You make up things about Jews to tell your hateful little lies.
Messianic Jews like all other Jews know that salvation (having a share
in the world to come) is based on HaShem's Chesed, not on our efforts
to earn it. You dejudaizers reject Messiah by rejecting His teaching
of Torah.
>
>That is biblical truth, not anti-semitism, and I have been 100%--not
>99%--consistent in presenting both support for israel and the jews as a
>people and nation, while making no politically correct compromise on the
>infinite superiority of Christianity to the religious system of rabbinic
>judaism.
Vince that is a lie. You have been proven time and again to reject
the Bible in favor of extra-biblical mythology.
>
>Even worse than that is the apostasy of your version of 'messianic
>judaism' which pollutes the true gospel by offering a hybrid heresy that
>denies essentials of the Christian faith almost across the board.
You keep preaching the "gospel of Satan," promoting blasphemy against
the Holy Spirit, and now you complain that people who read and study
the Bible don't believe you.
>
>John is a great example here lately, who now is denouncing the writings
>of paul, and coming to reject half the NT he doesn't think lines up with
>the gospels.
The translations of Rabbi Shaul's writings into English from the Greek
translations are very poor and in many places directly oppose the
Greek text. If he cannot read Greek, but has read the Bsorat
(Gospels), it is easy to see why he would reject these translations of
Rabbi Shaul's writings, especially when they are misused by people
here to oppose the Word of God. His rejection of Shaul's writings is
the fault of anti-semites like you, not any fault of Messianic
Judaism.
>
>Yet you expect me to HONOR that sort of religion???
No, I see you making things up and telling lies that are identified
with Armillus (anti-Messiah) in Second Thessalonians. So, I expect
hatred, racism ans satanism from you, you you never fail to deliver.
>
>If rejecting and denouncing that religion is anti-semitic, i eagerly
>accept the charge.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You repeatedly denounce what
>> messiah taught in the Bible because it is "too Jewish" for your
>> bigotry.
>
>No, i repeatedly rightly divide the word of truth, and denounce
>messianic heresies, which deny the teaching of the NT, and pervert what
>it does say into something it does not say.
Vince you can stop telling your lies now, I have read your posts. You
obviously have never read a word of the Bible. You post twisted
mistranslations and spew hatred of God.
>
>John is starting to see that, while you remain blind. HE is now
>understanding that the writings of PAUL denounce the theology you claim
>is truth, and--in keeping with true sincerity--is coming to reject those
>writings in order to embrace the torah observance of the "yeshua" he
>follows, that he also limits to the teachings He taught under the Law
>and before the resurrection and new covenant.
You are not making any sense. Messiah cannot come and renounce the
Word of God. Any person renouncing any of the Tanakh is a fasle
prophet and serves only Satan.
>
>He is joining Snow on my list of honest people, while you're still on
>the Dishonest list, cuz you pervert Paul's words into supporting your
>false doctrines.
Your list is an insane fantasy.
>
>
>>
>> Judaism, specifically Messianic Judaism, is the religion taught in the
>> New Testament; Messiah taught against the theological doctrines that
>> separate Christianity from Judaism. Messiah taught against idolatry
>> in the form of "Messiah worship;" He taught against antinomianism,
>> teaching that all 613 Commandments are in full effect "until Heaven
>> and Earth pass away and everything has happened."
>
>And every word you say there is apostasy, and a rejection of the
>Christian faith.
Then Christianity is apostasy and evil by YOUR admission. These
doctrines od Christianity are evil, they are forbidden bu God and
rejected by Messiah.
>
>That's why I call it 'sewage'.
Yes, Christianity is sewage.
>
>
>>
>> You keep trying to dejudaize Yshu`a, and His Talmidim as well as Rabbi
>> Shaul.
>
>There is no such person as "Rabbi Shaul"; that character did not and
>does not exist. Ever.
The New testament disagrees with your antisemitic claim.
As usual you reject the bible in favor of your own racist, Satanic
beliefs.
vince garcia
Really? When? I did it right now because, like the typical whiner, you
don't know what REAL racisim is; you simply claim anyone who criticises
you is a racist, and by so doing dillute the energy that should be
directed at the REAL anti-semites who want to exterminate the jews.
I don't want to exterminate the jews. I want to exterminate those
plotting the destruction of israel
>
> >
> >Conversely, I fanatically love and support the jews (and am ready to go
> >to war for them), but I (correctly) deny and denounce the religion as
> >incapable of keeping you out of hell, because its foundation is cleaving
> >to the law, while rejecting Christ as the atonement for sin.
>
> Vince you hate Jews so much you try to claim that Yshu`a should not be
> called by His real name,
That has nothing to do with hating jews. I have made it abundantly clear
in post after post--most recently in my main point on Dec 14--that my
denunciation of calling Jesus Yeshua is based on this:
2. He will stop using the name Jesus, and call Him Yeshua--not to be
more accurate, but...
*as a denunciation and repudiation of "Gentile Christianity and its
Gentile Jesus" that should be rejected by the "true" followers of God
who keep Torah.*
That is not 'hating Jews'. That is denouncing messianic heretics who
reject the true gospel and teachings of the New Testament by claiming
the NT mandates everyone be torah observant--which is a sewage doctrine,
and a lie from the mouth of satan.
>that Rabbi Shaul was not a rabbi,
"Rabbi Shaul" is a myth of your own creation. I know of no one named
that. I only know of the man PAUL, who repudiated the jewish name SAUL,
and never--ever--called himself a 'rabbi'!
that
> Messiah taught a religion other than Judaism. You hate Jews so much
> that you desperately try to dejudaize the Jewish faith that Messiah
> taught. All of your claims are false and can only be motivated by
> antisemitism.
You sound like a liberal whining that a guy is a racist if he is against
illegal immigration.
Well, I'm not impressed with your accusations. My points against YOU are
based not on a hatred of jews--but a hatred of you and what you stand
for, which has nothing to do with the jews. They sincerely reject the
gospel, while you pollute it.
YOU are the problem, not the jews
>
> You make up things about Jews to tell your hateful little lies.
such as?
> Messianic Jews like all other Jews know that salvation (having a share
> in the world to come) is based on HaShem's Chesed, not on our efforts
> to earn it.
Liar. If you beleive God REQUIRES torah observance, you automatically
make torah observance a forensic part of the salvation formula, which
means a portion of your salvation you indeed earn through keeping
comamndments--just as you'd say jesus taught the rich young ruler.
Where no law is, there is no transgression.
You dejudaizers reject Messiah by rejecting His teaching
> of Torah.
And you reject the new testament by teaching torah observance to
gentiles, a doctrine of devils.
>
> >
> >That is biblical truth, not anti-semitism, and I have been 100%--not
> >99%--consistent in presenting both support for israel and the jews as a
> >people and nation, while making no politically correct compromise on the
> >infinite superiority of Christianity to the religious system of rabbinic
> >judaism.
>
> Vince that is a lie. You have been proven time and again to reject
> the Bible in favor of extra-biblical mythology.
My theology on salvation and the place of torah observance lines up 100%
with the new testament, and _I'm_ not the one who has to rename Paul to
'rabbi shaul' to help make my judaising doctrine more believable
>
> >
> >Even worse than that is the apostasy of your version of 'messianic
> >judaism' which pollutes the true gospel by offering a hybrid heresy that
> >denies essentials of the Christian faith almost across the board.
>
> You keep preaching the "gospel of Satan," promoting blasphemy against
> the Holy Spirit, and now you complain that people who read and study
> the Bible don't believe you.
You clearly DON'T study the bible, because you repuiate the teachings of
the NT from start to finish with your doctrines.
You preach satanic deception, rename Paul ro rabbi Shaul, distort,
twist, deny and alter what the NT actually does teach in oder to promote
the heresy of torah observance.
> >
> >John is a great example here lately, who now is denouncing the writings
> >of paul, and coming to reject half the NT he doesn't think lines up with
> >the gospels.
>
> The translations of Rabbi Shaul's writings into English from the Greek
> translations are very poor and in many places directly oppose the
> Greek text. If he cannot read Greek
Oh, you're a greek scholar? What degrees in greek do you have, and where
and when did you get them? I want to check out your credentials since
you feel qualified to label our our bibles wrong, and actually teaching
the opposite of what their greek text says.
So list what doctorates you have in greek, and where you got them.
I'm unimpressed with you quoting other heretics on the unreliability of
our bibles.
, but has read the Bsorat
> (Gospels), it is easy to see why he would reject these translations of
> Rabbi Shaul's writings, especially when they are misused by people
> here to oppose the Word of God. His rejection of Shaul's writings is
> the fault of anti-semites like you, not any fault of Messianic
> Judaism.
YOU are the worst sort of anti-semite: one who will not stand up and
tell the jews that their religion will send them to hell if they never
accept the atonement of Christ for their sins, and seek reconciliation
to God based on THAT ALONE.
Your messianic religion is sewage.
Linda Lee
> you try to claim that Yshu`a should not be
> called by His real name, that Rabbi Shaul was not a rabbi,
Why do you call Paul a rabbi when the Messiah said to have only him as
our teacher and not to call men rabbi or father?
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master [defined
teacher, guide], even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your
Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even
Christ.
Snow
I happen to like the topic of the book and hope you guys will stop
changing titles.
In other thoughts...
It's annoying having some people on killfile because it makes the
threads disappear when they post.. (sigh)
randy
"doug delt"
"...Because of Jesus remarks to the young rich man, I think it best to just
commands in the Hebrew Scriptures."
The problem, Doug, is that we need to define what we mean when we say the 10
Commandments apply to Christians. The principles of human morality have
*always* applied to Christians, as well as to the whole human race. But when
we speak of the "10 Commandments," we're speaking of ten specific
requirements that apply within the context of Moses' Law.
I think it needs to be reaffirmed again and again that the covenant of Law
is done away with, kaput! Even the Ten Commandments can be said to have
passed away when the Law as a whole passed away. If we claim to be following
the basic principles of morality, symbolized by the Ten Commandments, fine.
But to reaffirm the validity of the Law in our day, even in the form of the
Ten Commandments, is wrong. For example, the command to observe the Sabbath
Day no longer applies. We can have all of the moral principles, such as "do
not murder," and "do not commit adultery," apply under the New Covenant, and
not call them the "Ten Commandments" at all!
"...Paul does teach many things difficult to understand, and in my view
often contradictory of Jesus. The most important, and central conflict
for me, is over salvation. While Jesus clearly teaches salvation for a
believer by justification by repentance (the Publican goes home
justified; "repent or perish" in Luke 15; "heaven maimed or hell
whole" in Mark 9:42-47), Paul is viewed to teach in Romans 4:3-5 that
Abraham was justified without repentance and while "ungodly" by simply
being a believer....
Paul did not teach salvation apart from repentance. Rather, he taught that
salvation took place by the works of Christ, as opposed to our own
works--apart from our own attempts at self-justification.
randy
Snow
> "doug delt"
> "...Because of Jesus remarks to the young rich man, I think it best to just
> say the 10 commandments apply to all NT christians, as well as all sojourner
> commands in the Hebrew Scriptures."
>
> I think it needs to be reaffirmed again and again that the covenant of Law
> is done away with, kaput!
Yehoshua never made such a statement, why do you?
Linda Lee
> "doug delt"
> "...Because of Jesus remarks to the young rich man, I think it best to just
> say the 10 commandments apply to all NT christians, as well as all sojourner
> commands in the Hebrew Scriptures."
>
> The problem, Doug, is that we need to define what we mean when we say the 10
> Commandments apply to Christians. The principles of human morality have
> *always* applied to Christians, as well as to the whole human race. But when
> we speak of the "10 Commandments," we're speaking of ten specific
> requirements that apply within the context of Moses' Law.
>
> I think it needs to be reaffirmed again and again that the covenant of Law
> is done away with, kaput!
> Even the Ten Commandments can be said to have
> passed away when the Law as a whole passed away.
The Messiah said, WITH God, we are able to obey the Ten Commandments
and give to the poor, and so are able to attain eternal life;
therefore, he said also "follow me" (i.e. 'walk in the Spirit'):
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what
good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept
from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell
that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in
heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away
sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you,
That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the
kingdom of God.
Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed,
saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, WITH MEN THIS IS
IMPOSSIBLE; BUT WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.
Even Paul (at one time anyway), said the same thing, that without the
Spirit, man cannot be subject to the law of God, but with the Spirit
"the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us" who "walk" in
the Spirit:
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through
the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,
and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the
flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually
minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not
subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
...
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons of God.
> If we claim to be following
> the basic principles of morality, symbolized by the Ten Commandments, fine.
> But to reaffirm the validity of the Law in our day, even in the form of the
> Ten Commandments, is wrong. For example, the command to observe the Sabbath
> Day no longer applies. We can have all of the moral principles, such as "do
> not murder," and "do not commit adultery," apply under the New Covenant, and
> not call them the "Ten Commandments" at all!
>
> "...Paul does teach many things difficult to understand, and in my view
> often contradictory of Jesus. The most important, and central conflict
> for me, is over salvation. While Jesus clearly teaches salvation for a
> believer by justification by repentance (the Publican goes home
> justified; "repent or perish" in Luke 15; "heaven maimed or hell
> whole" in Mark 9:42-47), Paul is viewed to teach in Romans 4:3-5 that
> Abraham was justified without repentance and while "ungodly" by simply
> being a believer....
>
> Paul did not teach salvation apart from repentance. Rather, he taught that
> salvation took place by the works of Christ, as opposed to our own
> works--apart from our own attempts at self-justification.
Actually he taught that through Christ/God we are able to 'walk in the
Spirit' and refrain from sin (i.e. obey "the law", the Ten
Commandments - Rom. 8:6-7), and that if we don't, we, believers, are
not sons of God, and we shall die (Rom. 8:13-14).
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons of God.
> randy
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>On Dec 27, 2:23�am, "randy" wrote:
>
>> I think it needs to be reaffirmed again and again
>> that the covenant of Law is done away with, kaput!
>
> Yehoshua never made such a statement, why do you?
No, He never did make a statement like that, you're right!
Why would He? At that time, it wasn't. done away with.
He did say however, when it would be done with.
Matthew 5:17-18
17) Do not think that I came to destroy the Law
or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but
to fulfill.
18) For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and
earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no
means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
That simply means that when "heaven and earth
pass away" that the law is done with, since what
is fulfilled, is no longer necessary. For example,
one does not keep adding water to a glass that
is already full, does one?
No, of course not! No more than we look for
the Messiah, once the prophecy of His birth
is fulfilled. Or do you keep looking for that?
The question here is; "What did Jesus mean by
the statement, "heaven and earth"? Since you
want to be a Jew, why don't you think about that?
Especially since it is a symbolic term that referred
to the Temple, which is where it was considered
that "heaven and earth met". And in the Temple,
it is an ABSOLUTE FACT that you had:
1) A Heaven peculiar (unique) to God.
2) The land (the Jewish Court).
3) The sea (the Gentile Court).
And this dates all the way back to the days of Moses!
In fact, Josephus gives us a convincing record of this:
"However, this proportion of the measures of the
tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system
of the world: for that third part thereof which was
within the four pillars, to which the priests were not
admitted, is, as it were, a Heaven peculiar to God..."
- Josephus, Antiquities, Book 3, Chap 6, Paragraph 4,
Section 123)
Note, within the Temple was, "a Heaven peculiar
(unique) to God".
"When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into
three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests
as a place accessible to the common, he denoted
the land and the sea, these being of general access
to all; but he set apart the third division for God,
because heaven is inaccessible to men" - Josephus,
Antiquities, Book 3, Chap 7, Paragraph 7, Section 181)
Note two things here...
1) It was divided as "land and sea". The "sea",
in Jewish thinking, noted the Gentile nations.
Now when you read in Revelation about the
beast rising up out of the sea, you can now
understand that it is saying that the beast
would rise up out of the Gentile nations and
obviously, the Roman Empire, was Gentile.
2) He said that the third division was for God
and that it was because, "Heaven is inaccessible
to men". The Temple was considered to be
where Heaven and Earth met. So when it says
that heaven and earth would burn up, that the
elements would melt, it was talking about the
removal of the old system, which had as its center,
the Temple.
And it was this new covenant that they were awaiting:
"In that He says; A NEW COVENANT, He has made
the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete
and growing old is ready to vanish away."
- Heb 8:13
But hey, why don't you tell us all about what a great
Jewish thinker you are and then deny this, because
hey, after all, it contradicts your doctrine and hey,
WE CAN'T HAVE THAT, right Snowy boy?! <chuckle>
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
�There is no refuge from confession but suicide;
and suicide is confession.� - Daniel Webster
Snow
wrote:
> And it was this new covenant that they were awaiting:
>
> "In that He says; A NEW COVENANT, He has made
> the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete
> and growing old is ready to vanish away."
> - Heb 8:13
>
> But hey, why don't you tell us all about what a great
> Jewish thinker you are and then deny this, because
> hey, after all, it contradicts your doctrine and hey,
> WE CAN'T HAVE THAT, right Snowy boy?! <chuckle>
Interesting post Dave and food for thought. I would disagree with you
on one point, that I desire to be "a Jew". I do not subscribe to 613
commandments, I believe 10 are the covenant.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you
to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables
of stone.
I believe the Torah is a "way of life" but what we are held to account
for is doing what is right and teaching Ten, just as "it is written".
I get the impression that you don't know my doctrine and I am fine
with that Dave. Thanks for the thoughts... your views of "heaven and
earth" are very interesting and worth consideration.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
> On Dec 27, 10:40�am, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> And it was this new covenant that they were awaiting:
>>
>> "In that He says; A NEW COVENANT, He has made
>> �the first obsolete. �Now what is becoming obsolete
>> �and growing old is ready to vanish away."
>> - Heb 8:13
>
> Interesting post Dave and food for thought.
Okay, fair enough.
> I would disagree with you on one point,
> that I desire to be "a Jew".
You're the one bringing the law into it all the time.
> I do not subscribe to 613 commandments,
> I believe 10 are the covenant.
Then a lot of the folks in the OT are wrong,
since the first five books are called "the law"
many times in it.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"The first time is happenstance. The second time
is coincidence. The third time is the enemy
attacking." - Ian Flemming
Snow
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:34:50 -0800 (PST), Snow
>
> > On Dec 27, 10:40 am, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> >> And it was this new covenant that they were awaiting:
>
> >> "In that He says; A NEW COVENANT, He has made
> >> the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete
> >> and growing old is ready to vanish away."
> >> - Heb 8:13
>
> > Interesting post Dave and food for thought.
>
> Okay, fair enough.
>
> > I would disagree with you on one point,
> > that I desire to be "a Jew".
>
> You're the one bringing the law into it all the time.
>
> > I do not subscribe to 613 commandments,
> > I believe 10 are the covenant.
>
> Then a lot of the folks in the OT are wrong,
> since the first five books are called "the law"
> many times in it.
No.. their are layers of the Torah. Just like you have Federal, State
and local laws with different penalties if you violate them the same
is for the Torah. Christians and Jewish error is to give all the same
equal status but clearly the Torah says otherwise:
Are there really 613 commandments?
Eze 13:22 “Because with falsehood you have made the heart of the
righteous sad, whom I have not made sad. And you have strengthened the
hands of the wrong, so that he does not turn from his evil way, to
keep him alive.
I’ve posted to my brothers that there are 10 commandments in the
covenant:
Deu 4:13 “And He made known to you His covenant which He commanded you
to do, the Ten Words, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
His response back? Bill Farkas said, “Disregarding 603 commandments
in favor of ten is only a shade away from what you accuse Paul of
anyway. What about the entire law? Why are you excused from the laws
you either can't or just plain don't want to comply with.”
Isa 28:13 But the Word of Yahweh was to them, “Command upon command,
command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little,
there a little,” so that they go and shall stumble backward, and be
broken and snared and taken captive.”
Notice you are again taken captive. There are not 613 commandments
that are the covenant unless of course you do not believe the very
words of the Torah. You illustrate the same faulty teachings of the
Pharisees in that you ignore the fact that there is in fact layers to
the Torah just like you can have Federal, State and Local laws and
then ordinances such as parking violations.
Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed
[1]My voice and guarded My Charge:
[2]My commands, [3]My laws,
[4]and My Torot1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching
The other problem with lumping all the Torah as a command is that you
disregard it and then consider it a curse according to false apostle
Paul. I cannot lay the blame squarely on the Christian church when
the Oral tradition of the Jewish church continues to lie about the
number of commandments and thereby adding words to the Torah.
If we examine the Christian mindset, it says, “God brought the chosen
tribe out of Egypt and then heap 613 commands on them and cursed them
if they disobeyed the slightest ordinance. All Jews earned death by
even the slightest infraction until the Messiah came and freed us from
the law. If Jews don’t believe Jesus, they are damned to hell because
nobody can be saved by law.”
In other words, Christians believe in a sadistic and cruel deity.
Christians believe in a deity that relies on death and destruction on
his “Chosen” people for such small infringements of the Torah as not
making a sacrifice for sins. This couldn’t be farther from truth.
Bill Farker said, “No one, including you, is capable of keeping the
law. Do you honestly believe that God's sole interest in us is that we
sit up straight and behave better?”
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Master YHWH, I have no
pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his
way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye
die, O house of Israel?
Of course he wants you to behave better, duh? Don’t you get that
that’s the whole point of repentance? Even in the Covenant it speaks
of having a new spirit that you might live, what Yehoshua taught was
nothing new!
Eze 18:31 “Cast away from you all the transgressions, by which you
have transgressed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new
spirit. For why should you die, O house of Yisra’ĕl?
Eze 18:32 “For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,”
declares the Master Yahweh. “So turn back and live!”
Christians do not recognize THEY ARE PHARISEES and students of a
Pharisee (Acts 23:5, Php 2:5) in Paul. What Christians fail to grasp
is this:
Eze 33:15 if the wrong restores the pledge, gives back what he has
stolen, and walks in the **laws of life** without doing crookedness,
he shall certainly live; he shall not die.
The Torah is the LAW OF LIFE. It is not a curse in any way shape or
form unless you never establish it’s teachings in your life. So it
becomes necessary to dispel Christian myth about Pharisees.
Myth 1: Pharisee’s were Torah observant and kept the commandments.
Mat 15:3 But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress
the command of Elohim1 because of your tradition? Footnote: 1See Mat.
5:20.
Myth 2 and 3: Sin was forgiven only via sacrifice in the temple or at
the arrival of “Jesus Christ”. Sin means automatic death.
Eze 18:27 “And when the wrong turns away from the wrong which he has
done, and he does right-ruling and righteousness, he keeps himself
alive. 28 “Because he sees and turns away from all the transgressions
which he has done, he shall certainly live, he shall not die.
Let’s be clear, if one CONTINUES to sin, it will mean death but the
idea that “only in Jesus” can one be forgiven makes Yahweh an
uncompassionate deity that hates his chosen children if the Romans
didn’t murder his Son.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Moses dies without
compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses.
The reality is that if Christian myth were true, nobody would be left
alive! The Christian deity would have killed off humanity long before
the arrival of the Messiah! Don’t believe it.. it’s a wicked and
terrible lie that blasphemies the compassion of Yahweh!
Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
Because you tithe the mint and the anise and the cumin,
and have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah:
the right-ruling and the COMPASSION and the belief.
These need to have been done, WITHOUT neglecting the others.
Hebrews and Paul are the doctrine of Pharisees!
Mat 9:10 And it came to be, as Yehoshua sat at the table in the house,
that see, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him
and His taught ones. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to
His taught ones, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and
sinners?” 12 And Yehoshua hearing this, said to them, “Those who are
strong have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone
called ‘a brother,’ if he is one who whores, or greedy of gain, or an
idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler – not even to eat
with such a one.
This verse requires YOU to first off be your brothers JUDGE. Rather
than follow the Messiah’s example the Pharisee tells you to NOT even
eat with him.
Mat 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire COMPASSION and
not offering.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance,
but sinners.”
This is not a teaching of the Messiah, he is quoting the prophets.
Mic 6:6 With what shall I come before YAHWEH, bow myself before the
high Elohim? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with calves
a year old?
Mic 6:7 Is YAHWEH pleased with thousands of rams or ten thousand
rivers of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the
fruit of my body for the sin of my being?
Mic 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good. And what does
YAHWEH require of you **but to do right, and to love kindness, and to
walk humbly with your Elohim?**
It is the Pharisee and the wicked that want you to believe in a deity
with no compassion that is so exacting to the letter of the law that
he has no compassion and will destroy you.
Deu 4:31 “For Yahweh your Elohim is a compassionate Ěl, He does not
forsake you, nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers
which He swore to them.
Yet within the very “Law” is the truth that YAHWEH IS COMPASSIONATE
and has been since the beginning when he spared the murderer Cain!
THE LAW IS COMPASSION and is weighed out against your judgment.
Jas 2:13 For the judgment is without compassion to the one who has
shown no compassion. And compassion boasts over judgment.
I left the Christian religion because they believe that you can’t be
one without Paul… that you can’t be Christian and know that Yahweh has
been and will always be kind and compassionate.
Jer 9:24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and
knows Me, that I am YAHWEH, doing kindness, right-ruling, and
righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” declares YAHWEH.
Christians do not believe the Messiah:
Mat 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds
that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into
the reign of the heavens.
Repent, turn and live.. be righteous in Yahweh’s Torah.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the
name of YAHWEH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem
shall be deliverance, as YAHWEH hath said, and in the remnant whom
YAHWEH shall call.
Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other
time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are the change that
we seek.
Barack Obama
http://e-sword-users.org/ Free bible software
http://groups.google.com/group/messianicYehoshua <-- join
http://www.isr-messianic.org/ <- download the scriptures free
He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who
helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against
it is really cooperating with it.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
> On Dec 27, 7:01�pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:34:50 -0800 (PST), Snow
>> <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>>
>>> I do not subscribe to 613 commandments,
>>> I believe 10 are the covenant.
>>
>> Then a lot of the folks in the OT are wrong,
>> since the first five books are called "the law"
>> many times in it.
>
> No.. there are layers of the Torah.
If you say so. Now supply the verse that says that.
Not that you can, but even if you could, my response
would be that you can't use it, because it's simply not
a commandment, according to your own claim.
Now whether the number is exactly 613 or not, you can
go debate with whomever you wish. But the fact is, that
all five books of the Torah are called, "The Law" multiple
times in the Bible and that won't change no matter what
you say here, sir.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"A man is too apt to forget that in this world
he cannot have everything. A choice is all
that is left him." - H. Mathews
Snow
wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:39:10 -0800 (PST), Snow
>
> > On Dec 27, 7:01 pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
> >> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:34:50 -0800 (PST), Snow
> >> <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>
> >>> I do not subscribe to 613 commandments,
> >>> I believe 10 are the covenant.
>
> >> Then a lot of the folks in the OT are wrong,
> >> since the first five books are called "the law"
> >> many times in it.
>
> > No.. there are layers of the Torah.
>
> If you say so. Now supply the verse that says that.
>
> Not that you can, but even if you could, my response
> would be that you can't use it, because it's simply not
> a commandment, according to your own claim.
>
> Now whether the number is exactly 613 or not, you can
> go debate with whomever you wish. But the fact is, that
> all five books of the Torah are called, "The Law" multiple
> times in the Bible and that won't change no matter what
> you say here, sir.
You should continue reading the post.. I did supply the verse to
support my arguement.
Gen 26:5 because Aḇraham obeyed
[1]My voice and guarded My Charge:
[2]My commands, [3]My laws,
[4]and My Torot1.” Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching
This is repeated again in several other places.
Lev 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do
them;
Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor
my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye
break my covenant:
Deu 6:1 Now these are the commandments,
the statutes,
and the judgments,
which YHWH your Elohim commanded to teach you,
that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
Command, Statutes and judgments are all different layers of Torah.
vince garcia
>
What are you doing CHANGING THE THREAD NAME, you hypocrite?!
vince garcia
Since he hasn't answered, I will.
He'll point out the word there is REBBE, and so it's wrong to be called
"rebbe". but "rabbi" is just fine.
Ridiculous, huh? That's how his twisted theology works.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
> On Dec 27, 8:42�pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:39:10 -0800 (PST), Snow
>> <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>>
>> > On Dec 27, 7:01 pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>>
>> >> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:34:50 -0800 (PST), Snow
>> >> <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>>
>> >>> I do not subscribe to 613 commandments,
>> >>> I believe 10 are the covenant.
>>
>> >> Then a lot of the folks in the OT are wrong,
>> >> since the first five books are called "the law"
>> >> many times in it.
>>
>> > No.. there are layers of the Torah.
>>
>> If you say so. �Now supply the verse that says that.
>>
>> Not that you can, but even if you could, my response
>> would be that you can't use it, because it's simply not
>> a commandment, according to your own claim.
>>
>> Now whether the number is exactly 613 or not, you can
>> go debate with whomever you wish. �But the fact is, that
>> all five books of the Torah are called, "The Law" multiple
>> times in the Bible and that won't change no matter what
>> you say here, sir.
>
> You should continue reading the post.. I did supply
> the verse to support my arguement.
>
> Gen 26:5 because Ab?raham obeyed
> [1]My voice and guarded My Charge:
> [2]My commands, [3]My laws,
> [4]and My Torot1.� Footnote: 1Torot - plural of Torah, teaching
>
> This is repeated again in several other places.
No writings before the Torah was completed will change
what the Bible says about it, after it was completed.
The Torah is considered "the law" in the OT.
> Re: Commandments vs statutes
Irrelevant. You keep trying to go to the word,
"commandments". And I keep telling you that
I am not arguing that point and don't care about
that point. I am discussing "THE LAW" and the
entire Torah is called "THE LAW" more than once
in the Old Testament.
Joshua 1:7-8
7) Only be strong and very courageous, that you
may observe to do according to all the law which
Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn
from it to the right hand or to the left, that you
may prosper wherever you go.
8) This Book of the Law shall not depart from your
mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night,
that you may observe to do according to all that
is written in it. For then you will make your way
prosperous, and then you will have good success.
The "Book of the Law" was considered to be all
that Moses wrote. And it was later divided up
into five books.
"Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe,
I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the
Lord. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he
read it." - 2 Kings 22:8
Now you do with that what you will. But if there's
one thing that you should stop doing, it's putting
your argument into my mouth, meaning trying to
drag me into an argument about "commandments"
and "statutes". The Law is the Law and it includes
all of the Law and the word I used is the "LAW",
NOT "commandments and certainly not "statutes".
The Law includes all of it, combined, together.
Again, have your "10 vs 613" argument with
someone else. I never even mentioned that.
You did and that, to me, is you changing the
subject, since I am not talking about your
"commandments vs statutes" argument.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
By allowing science to say that it has completely
drawn a line around what thngs are and to say we
know what things are, it's in this box, that's it,
we've limited ourselves. That's losing, not gaining
and to say that the scientific method is the only
method of perception is in and of itself unscientific.
Science must acknowledge that there are many different
ways of perceiving things. Scientists in some branches
are bringing things back and saying "Okay, we didn't
have the whole picture.
Snow
wrote:
> Joshua 1:7-8
The books are called, THE TORAH, not the law. You know this and dwell
in the same confusion promoted by the Christian church. The Torah has
within it commandments, right rulings and ordnances that we are to
guard and I have never stated otherwise but what I am simply pointing
out to you ... that you keep going out of you way to NOT recognize is
that the COVENANT is TEN COMMANDMENTS.
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you
to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables
of stone.
You are the one that is changing the topic... do you deny deut 4:13
and the many other verses that talk about the covenant being WRITTEN
IN STONE? Can it be any simpler then that?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Same teaching from Duet is put forward by the Messiah.
Aaron
The Greek and Hebrew texts ban the title "rebe." a rebe or "master" is
one man who rules a sect or subsect of Judaism (found today in
chasidic Judaism). "Rabbi" rather than being a title of arrogance is
a title of humility; a rabbi is a teacher who is also part of the
class, more like a "head student." This is as opposed to a Moreh who
is a teacher who is above the class. In the English translations it
should be evident from the context of the chapter that this entire
section is opposing arrogant men assuming authority for which their
own arrogance disqualifies them. Also, Shaul's rabbinical ordination
is found in the Book of Galatians.
Aaron
So, you know that Shaul was a Rabbi and that Rebbe is the actual title
that was forbidden, but you are too antisemitic to adjust your own
lies. That is just evil, vince.
vince garcia
No, i said that's the kind of thing YOU teach. PAUL never called himself
a rabbi. YOU reinvent him as such, and throw back on him the name he
himself rejected. That's a part of your heresy
And you as certain of it as you are that MALAKOS means SPERM DRINKER,
right?
You should listen to zev, who just advised you not to get into
linguistic arguments again, because you only make yourself look foolish.
Aaron
>On Dec 27, 7:01 pm, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:34:50 -0800 (PST), Snow
>> <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
>>
>> > On Dec 27, 10:40 am, Pastor Dave wrote:
>>
>> >> And it was this new covenant that they were awaiting:
>>
>> >> "In that He says; A NEW COVENANT, He has made
>> >> the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete
>> >> and growing old is ready to vanish away."
>> >> - Heb 8:13
>>
>> > Interesting post Dave and food for thought.
>>
>> Okay, fair enough.
But is there a basis elsewhere in the Bible for Paul to say this?
If so, that passage must be taken into account when interpreting this
one.
There is in Jeremiah 31 which takes place after all the Jews are
gathered to Israel never to be scattered again, which in turn happens
after Messiah's return. (So, we know that this is a future event.)
In the Passage, God make a renewed covenant with Israel and Judah
excluding all non-Jewish people. Of course, a Gentile can convert to
judaism and become "grafted into Israel." (So, this refers to people
of Jewish faith.) A covenant is a contract like the one that God made
with Avraham and reaffirmed through Moses. The people said "if you
will be our God, we will obey your Commandments" Then God gave them
the vast majority of of the Commandments. Messiah never made a
covenant with people. The Jews already knew that having a share in
the World to come (being saved) was through God's chesed (grace) but
did not know exactly how that worked. Messiah explained that this
means that those who love and follow Him will be saved. (So, in the
NT there is no "New Covenant.")
The "Brit Chadahshah (Renewed Covenant)" spoken of in the book of
Jeremiah includes having the Torah places in the people written on out
hearts. (So, the coming Renewed Covenant will have all the
Commandmantes of the Torah, but we will instinctively obey God rather
than struggling with temptation.)
>>
>> > I would disagree with you on one point,
>> > that I desire to be "a Jew".
>>
>> You're the one bringing the law into it all the time.
>>
>> > I do not subscribe to 613 commandments,
>> > I believe 10 are the covenant.
>>
>> Then a lot of the folks in the OT are wrong,
>> since the first five books are called "the law"
>> many times in it.
>
>No.. their are layers of the Torah. Just like you have Federal, State
>and local laws with different penalties if you violate them the same
>is for the Torah. Christians and Jewish error is to give all the same
>equal status but clearly the Torah says otherwise:
>
>Are there really 613 commandments?
Yes, if you bother to count them. I am sure that you can agree that
anything which God commands to be done in perpetuity is a Commandment.
Anything that God commands only be done once is a command but not a
Commandment. Not all 613 can be done by a single person because some
are directed to men only, or women only, or people who have committed
a specific sin, or to kings of Israel, or to Levites, or to Priests,
or to High Priests, or to Jews living in the Land of Israel, and one
to only natural born Israelites (the Commandment to respect the
convert to Judaism)
Maimonides took the time to count them all, so while the list is
frequently attributed to him by people who do not want to obey God
each Commandment comes from God. Here is a list with verses. Some
citations require the reading of a whole chapter to understand the
verse listed others are more clear in the original Hebrew. If you are
really interested in the word of God, it is worth the time to look up
the passages.
The following are the 613 Commandments and their source in scripture,
as enumerated by Maimonides:
1.To know there is a God Ex. 20:2
2.Not to even think that there are other gods besides Him Ex. 20:2
3.To know that He is One Deut. 6:4
4.To love Him Deut. 6:5
5.To fear Him Deut. 10:20
6.To sanctify His Name Lev. 22:32
7.Not to profane His Name Lev. 22:32
8.Not to destroy objects associated with His Name Deut. 12:4
9.To listen to the prophet speaking in His Name Deut. 18:15
10.Not to test the prophet unduly Deut. 6:16
11.To emulate His ways Deut. 28:9
12.To cleave to those who know Him Deut. 10:20
13.To love other Jews Lev. 19:18
14.To love converts Deut. 10:19
15.Not to hate fellow Jews Lev. 19:17
16.To reprove a sinner Lev. 19:17
17.Not to embarrass others Lev. 19:17
18.Not to oppress the weak Ex. 22:21
19.Not to speak derogatorily of others Lev. 19:16
20.Not to take revenge Lev. 19:18
21.Not to bear a grudge Lev. 19:18
22.To learn Torah Deut. 6:7
23.To honor those who teach and know Torah Lev. 19:32
24.Not to inquire into idolatry Lev. 19:4
25.Not to follow the whims of your heart or what your eyes see Num.
15:39
26.Not to blaspheme Ex. 22:27
27.Not to worship idols in the manner they are worshiped Ex. 20:5
28.Not to worship idols in the four ways we worship God Ex. 20:5
29.Not to make an idol for yourself Ex. 20:4
30.Not to make an idol for others Lev. 19:4
31.Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes Ex. 20:20
32.Not to turn a city to idolatry Deut. 13:14
33.To burn a city that has turned to idol worship Deut. 13:17
34.Not to rebuild it as a city Deut. 13:17
35.Not to derive benefit from it Deut. 13:18
36.Not to missionize an individual to idol worship Deut. 13:12
37.Not to love the idolater Deut. 13:9
38.Not to cease hating the idolater Deut. 13:9
39.Not to save the idolater Deut. 13:9
40.Not to say anything in the idolater's defense Deut. 13:9
41.Not to refrain from incriminating the idolater Deut. 13:9
42.Not to prophesize in the name of idolatry Deut. 13:14
43.Not to listen to a false prophet Deut. 13:4
44.Not to prophesize falsely in the name of God Deut. 18:20
45.Not to be afraid of killing the false prophet Deut. 18:22
46.Not to swear in the name of an idol Ex. 23:13
47.Not to perform ov (medium) Lev. 19:31
48.Not to perform yidoni ("magical seer") Lev. 19:31
49.Not to pass your children through the fire to Molech Lev. 18:21
50.Not to erect a pillar in a public place of worship Deut. 16:22
51.Not to bow down on smooth stone Lev. 26:1
52.Not to plant a tree in the Temple courtyard Deut. 16:21
53.To destroy idols and their accessories Deut. 12:2
54.Not to derive benefit from idols and their accessories Deut. 7:26
55.Not to derive benefit from ornaments of idols Deut. 7:25
56.Not to make a covenant with idolaters Deut. 7:2
57.Not to show favor to them Deut. 7:2
58.Not to let them dwell in the Land of Israel Ex. 23:33
59.Not to imitate them in customs and clothing Lev. 20:23
60.Not to be superstitious Lev. 19:26
61.Not to go into a trance to foresee events, etc. Deut. 18:10
62.Not to engage in astrology Lev. 19:26
63.Not to mutter incantations Deut. 18:11
64.Not to attempt to contact the dead Deut. 18:11
65.Not to consult the ov Deut. 18:11
66.Not to consult the yidoni Deut. 18:11
67.Not to perform acts of magic Deut. 18:10
68.Men must not shave the hair off the sides of their head Lev. 19:27
69.Men must not shave their beards with a razor Lev. 19:27
70.Men must not wear women's clothing Deut. 22:5
71.Women must not wear men's clothing Deut. 22:5
72.Not to tattoo the skin Lev. 19:28
73.Not to tear the skin in mourning Deut. 14:1
74.Not to make a bald spot in mourning Deut. 14:1
75.To repent and confess wrongdoings Num. 5:7
76.To say the Shema twice daily Deut. 6:7
77.To serve the Almighty with daily prayer Ex. 23:25
78.The Kohanim must bless the Jewish nation daily Num. 6:23
79.To wear tefillin (phylacteries) on the head Deut. 6:8
80.To bind tefillin on the arm Deut. 6:8
81.To put a mezuzah on each door post Deut. 6:9
82.Each male must write a Torah scroll Deut. 31:19
83.The king must have a separate Sefer Torah for himself Deut. 17:18
84.To have tzitzit on four-cornered garments Num. 15:38
85.To bless the Almighty after eating Deut. 8:10
86.To circumcise all males on the eighth day after their birth Lev.
12:3
87.To rest on the seventh day Ex. 23:12
88.Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day Ex. 20:10
89.The court must not inflict punishment on Shabbat Ex. 35:3
90.Not to walk outside the city boundary on Shabbat Ex. 16:29
91.To sanctify the day with Kiddush and Havdalah Ex. 20:8
92.To rest from prohibited labor Lev. 23:32
93.Not to do prohibited labor on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:32
94.To afflict yourself on Yom Kippur Lev. 16:29
95.Not to eat or drink on Yom Kippur Lev. 23:29
96.To rest on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:7
97.Not to do prohibited labor on the first day of Passover Lev. 23:8
98.To rest on the seventh day of Passover Lev. 23:8
99.Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day of Passover Lev.
23:8
100.To rest on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
101.Not to do prohibited labor on Shavuot Lev. 23:21
102.To rest on Rosh Hashanah Lev. 23:24
103.Not to do prohibited labor on Rosh Hashanah Lev. 23:25
104.To rest on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
105.Not to do prohibited labor on Sukkot Lev. 23:35
106.To rest on Shemini Atzeret Lev. 23:36
107.Not to do prohibited labor on Shemini Atzeret Lev. 23:36
108.Not to eat chametz on the afternoon of the 14th day of Nissan
Deut. 16:3
109.To destroy all chametz on 14th day of Nissan Ex. 12:15
110.Not to eat chametz all seven days of Passover Ex. 13:3
111.Not to eat mixtures containing chametz all seven days of Passover
Ex. 12:20
112.Not to see chametz in your domain seven days Ex. 13:7
113.Not to find chametz in your domain seven days Ex. 12:19
114.To eat matzah on the first night of Passover Ex. 12:18
115.To relate the Exodus from Egypt on that night Ex. 13:8
116.To hear the Shofar on the first day of Tishrei (Rosh Hashanah)
Num. 9:1
117.To dwell in a Sukkah for the seven days of Sukkot Lev. 23:42
118.To take up a Lulav and Etrog all seven days Lev. 23:40
119.Each man must give a half shekel annually Ex. 30:13
120.Courts must calculate to determine when a new month begins Ex.
12:2
121.To afflict oneself and cry out before God in times of calamity
Num. 10:9
122.To marry a wife by means of ketubah and kiddushin Deut. 22:13
123.Not to have sexual relations with women not thus married Deut.
23:18
124.Not to withhold food, clothing, and sexual relations from your
wife Ex. 21:10
125.To have children with one's wife Gen. 1:28
126.To issue a divorce by means of a Get document Deut. 24:1
127.A man must not remarry his ex-wife after she has married someone
else Deut. 24:4
128.To perform yibbum (marry the widow of one's childless brother)
Deut. 25:5
129.To perform halizah (free the widow of one's childless brother from
yibbum) Deut. 25:9
130.The widow must not remarry until the ties with her brother-in-law
are removed (by halizah) Deut. 25:5
131.The court must fine one who sexually seduces a maiden Ex.
22:15-16
132.The rapist must marry the maiden Deut. 22:29
133.He is never allowed to divorce her Deut. 22:29
134.The slanderer must remain married to his wife Deut. 22:19
135.He must not divorce her Deut. 22:19
136.To fulfill the laws of the Sotah Num. 5:30
137.Not to put oil on her meal offering (as usual) Num. 5:15
138.Not to put frankincense on her meal offering (as usual) Num. 5:15
139.Not to have sexual relations with your mother Lev. 18:7
140.Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife Lev. 18:8
141.Not to have sexual relations with your sister Lev. 18:9
142.Not to have sexual relations with your father's wife's daughter
Lev. 18:11
143.Not to have sexual relations with your son's daughter Lev. 18:10
144.Not to have sexual relations with your daughter Lev. 18:10
145.Not to have sexual relations with your daughter's daughter Lev.
18:10
146.Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter Lev.
18:17
147.Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her son's daughter
Lev. 18:17
148.Not to have sexual relations with a woman and her daughter's
daughter Lev. 18:17
149.Not to have sexual relations with your father's sister Lev. 18:12
150.Not to have sexual relations with your mother's sister Lev. 18:13
151.Not to have sexual relations with your father's brother's wife
Lev. 18:14
152.Not to have sexual relations with your son's wife Lev. 18:15
153.Not to have sexual relations with your brother's wife Lev. 18:16
154.Not to have sexual relations with your wife's sister Lev. 18:18
155.A man must not have sexual relations with an animal Lev. 18:23
156.A woman must not have sexual relations with an animal Lev. 18:23
157.Not to have homosexual sexual relations among men Lev. 18:22
158.Not to have homosexual sexual relations with your father Lev.
18:7
159.Not to have homosexual sexual relations with your father's brother
Lev. 18:14
160.Not to have sexual relations with someone else's wife Lev. 18:20
161.Not to have sexual relations with a menstrually impure woman Lev.
18:19
162.Not to marry non-Jews Deut. 7:3
163.Not to let Moabite and Ammonite males marry into the Jewish people
Deut. 23:4
164.Not to prevent a third-generation Egyptian convert from marrying
into the Jewish people Deut. 23:8-9
165.Not to refrain from marrying a third generation Edomite convert
Deut. 23:8-9
166.Not to let a mamzer (a child born due to an illegal relationship)
marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:3
167.Not to let a eunuch marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:2
168.Not to offer to God any castrated male animals Lev. 22:24
169.The High Priest must not marry a widow Lev. 21:14
170.The High Priest must not have sexual relations with a widow even
outside of marriage Lev. 21:15
171.The High Priest must marry a virgin maiden Lev. 21:13
172.A Kohen (priest) must not marry a divorcee Lev. 21:7
173.A Kohen must not marry a zonah (a woman who has had a forbidden
sexual relationship) Lev. 21:7
174.A Kohen must not marry a chalalah ("a desecrated person") (party
to or product of 169-172) Lev. 21:7
175.Not to make pleasurable (sexual) contact with any forbidden woman
Lev. 18:6
176.To examine the signs of animals to distinguish between kosher and
non-kosher Lev. 11:2
177.To examine the signs of fowl to distinguish between kosher and
non-kosher Deut. 14:11
178.To examine the signs of fish to distinguish between kosher and
non-kosher Lev. 11:9
179.To examine the signs of locusts to distinguish between kosher and
non-kosher Lev. 11:21
180.Not to eat non-kosher animals Lev. 11:4
181.Not to eat non-kosher fowl Lev. 11:13
182.Not to eat non-kosher fish Lev. 11:11
183.Not to eat non-kosher flying insects Deut. 14:19
184.Not to eat non-kosher creatures that crawl on land Lev. 11:41
185.Not to eat non-kosher maggots Lev. 11:44
186.Not to eat worms found in fruit on the ground Lev. 11:42
187.Not to eat creatures that live in water other than (kosher) fish
Lev. 11:43
188.Not to eat the meat of an animal that died without ritual
slaughter Deut. 14:21
189.Not to benefit from an ox condemned to be stoned Ex. 21:28
190.Not to eat meat of an animal that was mortally wounded Ex. 22:30
191.Not to eat a limb torn off a living creature Deut. 12:23
192.Not to eat blood Lev. 3:17
193.Not to eat certain fats of clean animals Lev. 3:17
194.Not to eat the sinew of the thigh Gen. 32:33
195.Not to eat mixtures of milk and meat cooked together Ex. 23:19
196.Not to cook meat and milk together Ex. 34:26
197.Not to eat bread from new grain before the Omer Lev. 23:14
198.Not to eat parched grains from new grain before the Omer Lev.
23:14
199.Not to eat ripened grains from new grain before the Omer Lev.
23:14
200.Not to eat fruit of a tree during its first three years Lev.
19:23
201.Not to eat diverse seeds planted in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
202.Not to eat untithed fruits Lev. 22:15
203.Not to drink wine poured in service to idols Deut. 32:38
204.To ritually slaughter an animal before eating it Deut. 12:21
205.Not to slaughter an animal and its offspring on the same day Lev.
22:28
206.To cover the blood (of a slaughtered beast or fowl) with earth
Lev. 17:13
207.To send away the mother bird before taking its children Deut.
22:6
208.To release the mother bird if she was taken from the nest Deut.
22:7
209.Not to swear falsely in God's Name Lev. 19:12
210.Not to take God's Name in vain Ex. 20:6
211.Not to deny possession of something entrusted to you Lev. 19:11
212.Not to swear in denial of a monetary claim Lev. 19:11
213.To swear in God's Name to confirm the truth when deemed necessary
by court Deut. 10:20
214.To fulfill what was uttered and to do what was avowed Deut. 23:24
215.Not to break oaths or vows Num. 30:3
216.For oaths and vows annulled, there are the laws of annulling vows
explicit in the Torah Num. 30:3
217.The Nazir must let his hair grow Num. 6:5
218.He must not cut his hair Num. 6:5
219.He must not drink wine, wine mixtures, or wine vinegar Num. 6:3
220.He must not eat fresh grapes Num. 6:3
221.He must not eat raisins Num. 6:3
222.He must not eat grape seeds Num. 6:4
223.He must not eat grape skins Num. 6:4
224.He must not be under the same roof as a corpse Num. 6:6
225.He must not come into contact with the dead Num. 6:7
226.He must shave his head after bringing sacrifices upon completion
of his Nazirite period Num. 6:9
227.To estimate the value of people as determined by the Torah Lev.
27:2
228.To estimate the value of consecrated animals Lev. 27:12-13
229.To estimate the value of consecrated houses Lev. 27:14
230.To estimate the value of consecrated fields Lev. 27:16
231.Carry out the laws of interdicting possessions (cherem) Lev.
27:28
232.Not to sell the cherem Lev. 27:28
233.Not to redeem the cherem Lev. 27:28
234.Not to plant diverse seeds together Lev. 19:19
235.Not to plant grains or greens in a vineyard Deut. 22:9
236.Not to crossbreed animals Lev. 19:19
237.Not to work different animals together Deut. 22:10
238.Not to wear shaatnez, a cloth woven of wool and linen Deut. 22:11
239.To leave a corner of the field uncut for the poor Lev. 19:10
240.Not to reap that corner Lev. 19:9
241.To leave gleanings Lev. 19:9
242.Not to gather the gleanings Lev. 19:9
243.To leave the gleanings of a vineyard Lev. 19:10
244.Not to gather the gleanings of a vineyard Lev. 19:10
245.To leave the unformed clusters of grapes Lev. 19:10
246.Not to pick the unformed clusters of grapes Lev. 19:10
247.To leave the forgotten sheaves in the field Deut. 24:19
248.Not to retrieve them Deut. 24:19
249.To separate the "tithe for the poor" Deut. 14:28
250.To give charity Deut. 15:8
251.Not to withhold charity from the poor Deut. 15:7
252.To set aside Terumah Gedolah (gift for the Kohen) Deut. 18:4
253.The Levite must set aside a tenth of his tithe Num. 18:26
254.Not to preface one tithe to the next, but separate them in their
proper order Ex. 22:28
255.A non-Kohen must not eat Terumah Lev. 22:10
256.A hired worker or a Jewish bondsman of a Kohen must not eat
Terumah Lev. 22:10
257.An uncircumcised Kohen must not eat Terumah Ex. 12:48
258.An impure Kohen must not eat Terumah Lev. 22:4
259.A chalalah (party to #s 169-172 above) must not eat Terumah Lev.
22:12
260.To set aside Ma'aser (tithe) each planting year and give it to a
Levite Num. 18:24
261.To set aside the second tithe (Ma'aser Sheni) Deut. 14:22
262.Not to spend its redemption money on anything but food, drink, or
ointment Deut. 26:14
263.Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni while impure Deut. 26:14
264.A mourner on the first day after death must not eat Ma'aser Sheni
Deut. 26:14
265.Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni grains outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
266.Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni wine products outside Jerusalem Deut.
12:17
267.Not to eat Ma'aser Sheni oil outside Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
268.The fourth year crops must be totally for holy purposes like
Ma'aser Sheni Lev. 19:24
269.To read the confession of tithes every fourth and seventh year
Deut. 26:13
270.To set aside the first fruits and bring them to the Temple Ex.
23:19
271.The Kohanim must not eat the first fruits outside Jerusalem Deut.
12:17
272.To read the Torah portion pertaining to their presentation Deut.
26:5
273.To set aside a portion of dough for a Kohen Num. 15:20
274.To give the shoulder, two cheeks, and stomach of slaughtered
animals to a Kohen Deut. 18:3
275.To give the first shearing of sheep to a Kohen Deut. 18:4
276.To redeem firstborn sons and give the money to a Kohen Num. 18:15
277.To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen Ex.
13:13
278.To break the neck of the donkey if the owner does not intend to
redeem it Ex. 13:13
279.To rest the land during the seventh year by not doing any work
which enhances growth Ex. 34:21
280.Not to work the land during the seventh year Lev. 25:4
281.Not to work with trees to produce fruit during that year Lev.
25:4
282.Not to reap crops that grow wild that year in the normal manner
Lev. 25:5
283.Not to gather grapes which grow wild that year in the normal way
Lev. 25:5
284.To leave free all produce which grew in that year Ex. 23:11
285.To release all loans during the seventh year Deut. 15:2
286.Not to pressure or claim from the borrower Deut. 15:2
287.Not to refrain from lending immediately before the release of the
loans for fear of monetary loss Deut. 15:9
288.The Sanhedrin must count seven groups of seven years Lev. 25:8
289.The Sanhedrin must sanctify the fiftieth year Lev. 25:10
290.To blow the Shofar on the tenth of Tishrei to free the slaves Lev.
25:9
291.Not to work the soil during the fiftieth year (Jubilee)Lev. 25:11
292.Not to reap in the normal manner that which grows wild in the
fiftieth year Lev. 25:11
293.Not to pick grapes which grew wild in the normal manner in the
fiftieth year Lev. 25:11
294.Carry out the laws of sold family properties Lev. 25:24
295.Not to sell the land in Israel indefinitely Lev. 25:23
296.Carry out the laws of houses in walled cities Lev. 25:29
297.The Tribe of Levi must not be given a portion of the land in
Israel, rather they are given cities to dwell in Deut. 18:1
298.The Levites must not take a share in the spoils of war Deut. 18:1
299.To give the Levites cities to inhabit and their surrounding fields
Num. 35:2
300.Not to sell the fields but they shall remain the Levites' before
and after the Jubilee year Lev. 25:34
301.To build a Temple Ex. 25:8
302.Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal Ex. 20:23
303.Not to climb steps to the altar Ex. 20:26
304.To show reverence to the Temple Lev. 19:30
305.To guard the Temple area Num. 18:2
306.Not to leave the Temple unguarded Num. 18:5
307.To prepare the anointing oil Ex. 30:31
308.Not to reproduce the anointing oil Ex. 30:32
309.Not to anoint with anointing oil Ex. 30:32
310.Not to reproduce the incense formula Ex. 30:37
311.Not to burn anything on the Golden Altar besides incense Ex. 30:9
312.The Levites must transport the ark on their shoulders Num. 7:9
313.Not to remove the staves from the ark Ex. 25:15
314.The Levites must work in the Temple Num. 18:23
315.No Levite must do another's work of either a Kohen or a Levite
Num. 18:3
316.To dedicate the Kohen for service Lev. 21:8
317.The work of the Kohanim's shifts must be equal during holidays
Deut. 18:6-8
318.The Kohanim must wear their priestly garments during service Ex.
28:2
319.Not to tear the priestly garments Ex. 28:32
320.The Kohen Gadol 's breastplate must not be loosened from the Efod
Ex. 28:28
321.A Kohen must not enter the Temple intoxicated Lev. 10:9
322.A Kohen must not enter the Temple with his head uncovered Lev.
10:6
323.A Kohen must not enter the Temple with torn clothes Lev. 10:6
324.A Kohen must not enter the Temple indiscriminately Lev. 16:2
325.A Kohen must not leave the Temple during service Lev. 10:7
326.To send the impure from the Temple Num. 5:2
327.Impure people must not enter the Temple Num. 5:3
328.Impure people must not enter the Temple Mount area Deut. 23:11
329.Impure Kohanim must not do service in the temple Lev. 22:2
330.An impure Kohen, following immersion, must wait until after
sundown before returning to service Lev. 22:7
331.A Kohen must wash his hands and feet before service Ex. 30:19
332.A Kohen with a physical blemish must not enter the sanctuary or
approach the altar Lev. 21:23
333.A Kohen with a physical blemish must not serve Lev. 21:17
334.A Kohen with a temporary blemish must not serve Lev. 21:17
335.One who is not a Kohen must not serve Num. 18:4
336.To offer only unblemished animals Lev. 22:21
337.Not to dedicate a blemished animal for the altar Lev. 22:20
338.Not to slaughter it Lev. 22:22
339.Not to sprinkle its blood Lev. 22:24
340.Not to burn its fat Lev. 22:22
341.Not to offer a temporarily blemished animal Deut. 17:1
342.Not to sacrifice blemished animals even if offered by non-Jews
Lev. 22:25
343.Not to inflict wounds upon dedicated animals Lev. 22:21
344.To redeem dedicated animals which have become disqualified Deut.
12:15
345.To offer only animals which are at least eight days old Lev.
22:27
346.Not to offer animals bought with the wages of a harlot or the
animal exchanged for a dog Deut. 23:19
347.Not to burn honey or yeast on the altar Lev. 2:11
348.To salt all sacrifices Lev. 2:13
349.Not to omit the salt from sacrifices Lev. 2:13
350.Carry out the procedure of the burnt offering as prescribed in the
Torah Lev. 1:3
351.Not to eat its meat Deut. 12:17
352.Carry out the procedure of the sin offering Lev. 6:18
353.Not to eat the meat of the inner sin offering Lev. 6:23
354.Not to decapitate a fowl brought as a sin offering Lev. 5:8
355.Carry out the procedure of the guilt offering Lev. 7:1
356.The Kohanim must eat the sacrificial meat in the Temple Ex. 29:33
357.The Kohanim must not eat the meat outside the Temple courtyard
Deut. 12:17
358.A non-Kohen must not eat sacrificial meat Ex. 29:33
359.To follow the procedure of the peace offering Lev. 7:11
360.Not to eat the meat of minor sacrifices before sprinkling the
blood Deut. 12:17
361.To bring meal offerings as prescribed in the Torah Lev. 2:1
362.Not to put oil on the meal offerings of wrongdoers Lev. 5:11
363.Not to put frankincense on the meal offerings of wrongdoers Lev.
3:11
364.Not to eat the meal offering of the High Priest Lev. 6:16
365.Not to bake a meal offering as leavened bread Lev. 6:10
366.The Kohanim must eat the remains of the meal offerings Lev. 6:9
367.To bring all avowed and freewill offerings to the Temple on the
first subsequent festival Deut. 12:5-6
368.Not to withhold payment incurred by any vow Deut. 23:22
369.To offer all sacrifices in the Temple Deut. 12:11
370.To bring all sacrifices from outside Israel to the Temple Deut.
12:26
371.Not to slaughter sacrifices outside the courtyard Lev. 17:4
372.Not to offer any sacrifices outside the courtyard Deut. 12:13
373.To offer two lambs every day Num. 28:3
374.To light a fire on the altar every day Lev. 6:6
375.Not to extinguish this fire Lev. 6:6
376.To remove the ashes from the altar every day Lev. 6:3
377.To burn incense every day Ex. 30:7
378.To light the Menorah every day Ex. 27:21
379.The Kohen Gadol ("High Priest") must bring a meal offering every
day Lev. 6:13
380.To bring two additional lambs as burnt offerings on Shabbat Num.
28:9
381.To make the show bread Ex. 25:30
382.To bring additional offerings on Rosh Chodesh (" The New Month")
Num. 28:11
383.To bring additional offerings on Passover Num. 28:19
384.To offer the wave offering from the meal of the new wheat Lev.
23:10
385.Each man must count the Omer - seven weeks from the day the new
wheat offering was brought Lev. 23:15
386.To bring additional offerings on Shavuot Num. 28:26
387.To bring two leaves to accompany the above sacrifice Lev. 23:17
388.To bring additional offerings on Rosh Hashana Num. 29:2
389.To bring additional offerings on Yom Kippur Num. 29:8
390.To bring additional offerings on Sukkot Num. 29:13
391.To bring additional offerings on Shmini Atzeret Num. 29:35
392.Not to eat sacrifices which have become unfit or blemished Deut.
14:3
393.Not to eat from sacrifices offered with improper intentions Lev.
7:18
394.Not to leave sacrifices past the time allowed for eating them Lev.
22:30
395.Not to eat from that which was left over Lev. 19:8
396.Not to eat from sacrifices which became impure Lev. 7:19
397.An impure person must not eat from sacrifices Lev. 7:20
398.To burn the leftover sacrifices Lev. 7:17
399.To burn all impure sacrifices Lev. 7:19
400.To follow the procedure of Yom Kippur in the sequence prescribed
in Parshah Acharei Mot ("After the death of Aaron's sons...") Lev.
16:3
401.One who profaned property must repay what he profaned plus a fifth
and bring a sacrifice Lev. 5:16
402.Not to work consecrated animals Deut. 15:19
403.Not to shear the fleece of consecrated animals Deut. 15:19
404.To slaughter the paschal sacrifice at the specified time Ex. 12:6
405.Not to slaughter it while in possession of leaven Ex. 23:18
406.Not to leave the fat overnight Ex. 23:18
407.To slaughter the second Paschal Lamb Num. 9:11
408.To eat the Paschal Lamb with matzah and Marror on the night of the
fourteenth of Nissan Ex. 12:8
409.To eat the second Paschal Lamb on the night of the 15th of Iyar
Num. 9:11
410.Not to eat the paschal meat raw or boiled Ex. 12:9
411.Not to take the paschal meat from the confines of the group Ex.
12:46
412.An apostate must not eat from it Ex. 12:43
413.A permanent or temporary hired worker must not eat from it Ex.
12:45
414.An uncircumcised male must not eat from it Ex. 12:48
415.Not to break any bones from the paschal offering Ex. 12:46
416.Not to break any bones from the second paschal offering Num. 9:12
417.Not to leave any meat from the paschal offering over until morning
Ex. 12:10
418.Not to leave the second paschal meat over until morning Num. 9:12
419.Not to leave the meat of the holiday offering of the 14th until
the 16th Deut. 16:4
420.To be seen at the Temple on Passover, Shavuot, and Sukkot Deut.
16:16
421.To celebrate on these three Festivals (bring a peace offering) Ex.
23:14
422.To rejoice on these three Festivals (bring a peace offering) Deut.
16:14
423.Not to appear at the Temple without offerings Deut. 16:16
424.Not to refrain from rejoicing with, and giving gifts to, the
Levites Deut. 12:19
425.To assemble all the people on the Sukkot following the seventh
year Deut. 31:12
426.To set aside the firstborn animals Ex. 13:12
427.The Kohanim must not eat unblemished firstborn animals outside
Jerusalem Deut. 12:17
428.Not to redeem the firstborn Num. 18:17
429.Separate the tithe from animals Lev. 27:32
430.Not to redeem the tithe Lev. 27:33
431.Every person must bring a sin offering (in the temple) for his
transgression Lev. 4:27
432.Bring an asham talui (temple offering) when uncertain of guilt
Lev. 5:17-18
433.Bring an asham vadai (temple offering) when guilt is ascertained
Lev. 5:25
434.Bring an oleh v'yored (temple offering) offering (if the person is
wealthy, an animal; if poor, a bird or meal offering) Lev. 5:7-11
435.The Sanhedrin must bring an offering (in the Temple) when it rules
in error Lev. 4:13
436.A woman who had a running (vaginal) issue must bring an offering
(in the Temple) after she goes to the Mikveh Lev. 15:28-29
437.A woman who gave birth must bring an offering (in the Temple)
after she goes to the Mikveh Lev. 12:6
438.A man who had a running (unnatural urinary) issue must bring an
offering (in the Temple) after he goes to the Mikveh Lev. 15:13-14
439.A metzora must bring an offering (in the Temple) after going to
the Mikveh Lev. 14:10
440.Not to substitute another beast for one set apart for sacrifice
Lev. 27:10
441.The new animal, in addition to the substituted one, retains
consecration Lev. 27:10
442.Not to change consecrated animals from one type of offering to
another Lev. 27:26
443.Carry out the laws of impurity of the dead Num. 19:14
444.Carry out the procedure of the Red Heifer (Para Aduma) Num. 19:2
445.Carry out the laws of the sprinkling water Num. 19:21
446.Rule the laws of human tzara'at as prescribed in the Torah Lev.
13:12
447.The metzora must not remove his signs of impurity Deut. 24:8
448.The metzora must not shave signs of impurity in his hair Lev.
13:33
449.The metzora must publicize his condition by tearing his garments,
allowing his hair to grow and covering his lips Lev. 13:45
450.Carry out the prescribed rules for purifying the metzora Lev.
14:2
451.The metzora must shave off all his hair prior to purification Lev.
14:9
452.Carry out the laws of tzara'at of clothing Lev. 13:47
453.Carry out the laws of tzara'at of houses Lev. 13:34
454.Observe the laws of menstrual impurity Lev. 15:19
455.Observe the laws of impurity caused by childbirth Lev. 12:2
456.Observe the laws of impurity caused by a woman's running issue
Lev. 15:25
457.Observe the laws of impurity caused by a man's running issue
(irregular ejaculation of infected semen) Lev. 15:3
458.Observe the laws of impurity caused by a dead beast Lev. 11:39
459.Observe the laws of impurity caused by the eight shratzim
(insects) Lev. 11:29
460.Observe the laws of impurity of a seminal emission (regular
ejaculation, with normal semen) Lev. 15:16
461.Observe the laws of impurity concerning liquid and solid foods
Lev. 11:34
462.Every impure person must immerse himself in a Mikvah to become
pure Lev. 15:16
463.The court must judge the damages incurred by a goring ox Ex.
21:28
464.The court must judge the damages incurred by an animal eating Ex.
22:4
465.The court must judge the damages incurred by a pit Ex. 21:33
466.The court must judge the damages incurred by fire Ex. 22:5
467.Not to steal money stealthily Lev. 19:11
468.The court must implement punitive measures against the thief Ex.
21:37
469.Each individual must ensure that his scales and weights are
accurate Lev. 19:36
470.Not to commit injustice with scales and weights Lev. 19:35
471.Not to possess inaccurate scales and weights even if they are not
for use Deut. 25:13
472.Not to move a boundary marker to steal someone's property Deut.
19:14
473.Not to kidnap Ex. 20:13
474.Not to rob openly Lev. 19:13
475.Not to withhold wages or fail to repay a debt Lev. 19:13
476.Not to covet and scheme to acquire another's possession Ex. 20:14
477.Not to desire another's possession Deut. 5:18
478.Return the robbed object or its value Lev. 5:23
479.Not to ignore a lost object Deut. 22:3
480.Return the lost object Deut. 22:1
481.The court must implement laws against the one who assaults another
or damages another's property Ex. 21:18
482.Not to murder Ex. 20:12
483.Not to accept monetary restitution to atone for the murderer Num.
35:31
484.The court must send the accidental murderer to a city of refuge
Num. 35:25
485.Not to accept monetary restitution instead of being sent to a city
of refuge Num. 35:32
486.Not to kill the murderer before he stands trial Num. 35:12
487.Save someone being pursued even by taking the life of the pursuer
Deut. 25:12
488.Not to pity the pursuer Num. 35:12
489.Not to stand idly by if someone's life is in danger Lev. 19:16
490.Designate cities of refuge and prepare routes of access Deut.
19:3
491.Break the neck of a calf by the river valley following an unsolved
murder Deut. 21:4
492.Not to work nor plant that river valley Deut. 21:4
493.Not to allow pitfalls and obstacles to remain on your property
Deut. 22:8
494.Make a guard rail around flat roofs Deut. 22:8
495.Not to put a stumbling block before a blind man (nor give harmful
advice) Lev. 19:14
496.Help another remove the load from a beast which can no longer
carry it Ex. 23:5
497.Help others load their beast Deut. 22:4
498.Not to leave others distraught with their burdens (but to help
either load or unload) Deut. 22:4
499.Conduct sales according to Torah law Lev. 25:14
500.Not to overcharge or underpay for an article Lev. 25:14
501.Not to insult or harm anybody with words Lev. 25:17
502.Not to cheat a convert monetarily Ex. 22:20
503.Not to insult or harm a convert with words Ex. 22:20
504.Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance with the prescribed laws Ex.
21:2
505.Not to sell him as a slave is sold Lev. 25:42
506.Not to work him oppressively Lev. 25:43
507.Not to allow a non-Jew to work him oppressively Lev. 25:53
508.Not to have him do menial slave labor Lev. 25:39
509.Give him gifts when he goes free Deut. 15:14
510.Not to send him away empty-handed Deut. 15:13
511.Redeem Jewish maidservants Ex. 21:8
512.Betroth the Jewish maidservant Ex. 21:8
513.The master must not sell his maidservant Ex. 21:8
514.Canaanite slaves must work forever unless injured in one of their
limbs Lev. 25:46
515.Not to extradite a slave who fled to (Biblical) Israel Deut.
23:16
516.Not to wrong a slave who has come to Israel for refuge Deut.
23:16
517.The courts must carry out the laws of a hired worker and hired
guard Ex. 22:9
518.Pay wages on the day they were earned Deut. 24:15
519.Not to delay payment of wages past the agreed time Lev. 19:13
520.The hired worker may eat from the unharvested crops where he works
Deut. 23:25
521.The worker must not eat while on hired time Deut. 23:26
522.The worker must not take more than he can eat Deut. 23:25
523.Not to muzzle an ox while plowing Deut. 25:4
524.The courts must carry out the laws of a borrower Ex. 22:13
525.The courts must carry out the laws of an unpaid guard Ex. 22:6
526.Lend to the poor and destitute Ex. 22:24
527.Not to press them for payment if you know they don't have it Ex.
22:24
528.Press the idolater for payment Deut. 15:3
529.The creditor must not forcibly take collateral Deut. 24:10
530.Return the collateral to the debtor when needed Deut. 24:13
531.Not to delay its return when needed Deut. 24:12
532.Not to demand collateral from a widow Deut. 24:17
533.Not to demand as collateral utensils needed for preparing food
Deut. 24:6
534.Not to lend with interest Lev. 25:37
535.Not to borrow with interest Deut. 23:20
536.Not to intermediate in an interest loan, guarantee, witness, or
write the promissory note Ex. 22:24
537.Lend to and borrow from idolaters with interest Deut. 23:21
538.The courts must carry out the laws of the plaintiff, admitter, or
denier Ex. 22:8
539.Carry out the laws of the order of inheritance Num. 27:8
540.Appoint judges Deut. 16:18
541.Not to appoint judges who are not familiar with judicial procedure
Deut. 1:17
542.Decide by majority in case of disagreement Ex. 23:2
543.The court must not execute through a majority of one; at least a
majority of two is required Ex. 23:2
544.A judge who presented an acquittal plea must not present an
argument for conviction in capital cases Deut. 23:2
545.The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning Deut.
22:24
546.The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning Lev. 20:14
547.The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword Ex.
21:20
548.The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation Lev.
20:10
549.The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry Deut.
21:22
550.Bury the executed on the day they are killed Deut. 21:23
551.Not to delay burial overnight Deut. 21:23
552.The court must not let the sorcerer live Ex. 22:17
553.The court must give lashes to the wrongdoer Deut. 25:2
554.The court must not exceed the prescribed number of lashes Deut.
25:3
555.The court must not kill anybody on circumstantial evidence Ex.
23:7
556.The court must not punish anybody who was forced to do a crime
Deut. 22:26
557.A judge must not pity the murderer or assaulter at the trial Deut.
19:13
558.A judge must not have mercy on the poor man at the trial Lev.
19:15
559.A judge must not respect the great man at the trial Lev. 19:15
560.A judge must not decide unjustly the case of the habitual
transgressor Ex. 23:6
561.A judge must not pervert justice Lev. 19:15
562.A judge must not pervert a case involving a convert or orphan
Deut. 24:17
563.Judge righteously Lev. 19:15
564.The judge must not fear a violent man in judgment Deut. 1:17
565.Judges must not accept bribes Ex. 23:8
566.Judges must not accept testimony unless both parties are present
Ex. 23:1
567.Not to curse judges Ex. 22:27
568.Not to curse the head of state or leader of the Sanhedrin Ex.
22:27
569.Not to curse any upstanding Jew Lev. 19:14
570.Anybody who knows evidence must testify in court Lev. 5:1
571.Carefully interrogate the witness Deut. 13:15
572.A witness must not serve as a judge in capital crimes Deut. 19:17
573.Not to accept testimony from a lone witness Deut. 19:15
574.Transgressors must not testify Ex. 23:1
575.Relatives of the litigants must not testify Deut. 24:16
576.Not to testify falsely Ex. 20:13
577.Punish the false witnesses as they tried to punish the defendant
Deut. 19:19
578.Act according to the ruling of the Sanhedrin Deut. 17:11
579.Not to deviate from the word of the Sanhedrin Deut. 17:11
580.Not to add to the Torah commandments or their oral explanations
Deut. 13:1
581.Not to diminish from the Torah any commandments, in whole or in
part Deut. 13:1
582.Not to curse your father and mother Ex. 21:17
583.Not to strike your father and mother Ex. 21:15
584.Respect your father or mother Ex. 20:12
585.Fear your father or mother Lev. 19:3
586.Not to be a rebellious son Deut. 21:18
587.Mourn for relatives Lev. 10:19
588.The High Priest must not defile himself for any relative Lev.
21:11
589.The High Priest must not enter under the same roof as a corpse
Lev. 21:11
590.A Kohen must not defile himself (by going to funerals or
cemeteries) for anyone except relatives Lev. 21:1
591.Appoint a king from Israel Deut. 17:15
592.Not to appoint a foreigner Deut. 17:15
593.The king must not have too many wives Deut. 17:17
594.The king must not have too many horses Deut. 17:16
595.The king must not have too much silver and gold Deut. 17:17
596.Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17
597.Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
598.Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
599.Remember what Amalek did to the Jewish people Deut. 25:17
600.Not to forget Amalek's atrocities and ambush on our journey from
Egypt in the desert Deut. 25:19
601.Not to dwell permanently in Egypt Deut. 17:16
602.Offer peace terms to the inhabitants of a city while holding
siege, and treat them according to the Torah if they accept the terms
Deut. 20:10
603.Not to offer peace to Ammon and Moab while besieging them Deut.
23:7
604.Not to destroy fruit trees even during the siege Deut. 20:19
605.Prepare latrines outside the camps Deut. 23:13
606.Prepare a shovel for each soldier to dig with Deut. 23:14
607.Appoint a priest to speak with the soldiers during the war Deut.
20:2
608.He who has taken a wife, built a new home, or planted a vineyard
is given a year to rejoice with his possessions Deut. 24:5
609.Not to demand from the above any involvement, communal or military
Deut. 24:5
610.Not to panic and retreat during battle Deut. 20:3
611.Keep the laws of the captive woman Deut. 21:11
612.Not to sell her into slavery Deut. 21:14
613.Not to retain her for servitude after having sexual relations with
her Deut. 21:14
>
>Eze 13:22 “Because with falsehood you have made the heart of the
>righteous sad, whom I have not made sad. And you have strengthened the
>hands of the wrong, so that he does not turn from his evil way, to
>keep him alive.
>
>I’ve posted to my brothers that there are 10 commandments in the
>covenant:
Then you ate wrong. The Ten Utterances (which not speaking Hebrew,
you keep mistranslatons as "ten words") include 14 Commandments.
>
>Deu 4:13 “And He made known to you His covenant which He commanded you
>to do, the Ten Words, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.
>
>His response back? Bill Farkas said, “Disregarding 603 commandments
>in favor of ten is only a shade away from what you accuse Paul of
>anyway. What about the entire law? Why are you excused from the laws
>you either can't or just plain don't want to comply with.”
>
>Isa 28:13 But the Word of Yahweh was to them, “Command upon command,
>command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little,
>there a little,” so that they go and shall stumble backward, and be
>broken and snared and taken captive.”
Yes, the in some generations the people, opposed the totality of the
613 Commandments and were broken by their rejection of the
Commandments
>
>Notice you are again taken captive. There are not 613 commandments
>that are the covenant unless of course you do not believe the very
>words of the Torah. You illustrate the same faulty teachings of the
>Pharisees in that you ignore the fact that there is in fact layers to
>the Torah just like you can have Federal, State and Local laws and
>then ordinances such as parking violations.
Snow, I have seen you use this before, but I thought you had dropped
it when you saw that the Torah specifically states Commandments that
God gave other than the fourteen which you keep calling "ten."
***SNIP***
Snow
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:39:10 -0800 (PST), Snow
> The following are the 613 Commandments and their source in scripture,
> as enumerated by Maimonides:
Isa 28:13 But the Word of Yahweh was to them, “Command upon command,
Linda Lee
But it is not Rebbe, it is "rhabbi" there, and Rabboni, a name applied
to Messiah, is Chaldean and means the same thing as the Hebrew rhabbi/
rabbi. It doesn't matter anyway whether the word in the Hebrew Gospel
of Matthew is Rebbe; they all mean "my master", and Christ said we
weren't to call men that. Interesting that the Catholics call their
priests "father" when the Messiah also said not to call men father.
It also doesn't matter whether rabbi or rebbe is used there, because
no one in the Scriptures ever called Paul a rabbi/rebbe, and Paul
never called himself rabbi/rebbe, rather he claimed to be an apostle.
Linda Lee
Torah is translated as "law" in the Scriptures.
Law - Heb. 8451
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
"From Heb. 3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or
Pentateuch."
The Pentateuch is "the five books of Moses" (first five books of the
OT). And the Decalogue is the Ten Commandments. So Torah refers to
BOTH the five books of Moses and/or the Ten Commandments. And the
Scriptures confirm those definitions.
Torah Heb. 8451 is from Heb. 3384:
ירא ירה
yârâh yârâ'
yaw-raw', yaw-raw'
"A primitive root; properly to flow as water (that is, to rain);
transitively to lay or throw (especially an arrow, that is, to shoot);
figuratively to point out (as if by aiming the finger), to TEACH".
The first two times the word Torah/"law" is used in the Hebrew
Scriptures, it is referring to the ordinances concerning how to
observe Passover, which included anyone observing it be circumcised:
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep
the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then
let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in
the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49 One LAW [TORAH] shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto
the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exo 13:6 Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the
seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
Exo 13:7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall
no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven
seen with thee in all thy quarters.
Exo 13:8 And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is
done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out
of Egypt.
Exo 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and
for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S LAW [TORAH] may be
in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of
Egypt.
Here it seems the Torah/Law alludes to more than being circumcised and
keeping the Passover; it alludes to the Ten Commandments, as God for
the first time refers to the SABBATH here (contained in the Ten
Commandments) regarding gathering the "manna" from Heaven (Exo.
16:15), and the next 'law' He gives, after saying this, is the TEN
COMMANDMENTS:
Exo. 16:4, "Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread
from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain
rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my
LAW [TORAH], or no."
...
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my
commandments [mitzvah/commands] and my laws [torah]?
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the SABBATH
In Ex. 20:1-17, GOD SPOKE the TEN COMMANDMENTS. Then in Exodus
Chapters 21-23, God gave/spoke MANY MORE "judgments" [defined verdict,
sentence, law] for Moses to give the people, ending with Exo. 24:3-4,
which says, "And Moses came and told the people all the words of the
LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one
voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.
And MOSES WROTE all the words of the LORD".
...
Exo 24:7 And he took the BOOK OF THE COVENANT, and read in the
audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said
will we do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people,
and said, Behold the blood of the COVENANT, which the LORD hath made
with you concerning all these words.
...
Exo 24:12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount,
and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law
["torah"], and commandments ["a command"] which I have written; that
thou mayest teach them.
...
Exo 24:18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up
into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty
nights.
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily
my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you
throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that
doth sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto
you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for
whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from
among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the
sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the
sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall KEEP THE SABBATH, to
observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL
COVENANT.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for
ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the
seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of
communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables
of stone, WRITTEN WITH THE FINGER OF GOD.
Exo 32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two
tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on
both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
Exo 32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was
the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
Exo 32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they
shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
Exo 32:18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for
mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome:
but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
Exo 32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp,
that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and
he cast the TABLES out of his hands, and BRAKE THEM beneath the
mount.
Exo 34:1-29 -
Exo 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone
like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that
were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
...
Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for
after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and
with Israel.
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights;
he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the
tables the words of the COVENANT, the TEN COMMANDMENTS [words].
Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his COVENANT, which he commanded
you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS [words]; and he wrote them upon
two tables of stone.
Deu 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes
and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to
possess it.
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing,
the TEN COMMANDMENTS [words], which the LORD spake unto you in the
mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the
LORD gave them unto me.
The Messiah made it very clear that we were to obey the Ten
Commandments:
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what
good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no
murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept
from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell
that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in
heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away
sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
And the Messiah's apostles said we were not to sin, but that if we did
sin, we had an advocate (in other words, repent and return to
obedience):
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye
sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father,
Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours
only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God
perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to
walk, even as he walked.
Linda Lee
> Snow wrote:
>
> What are you doing CHANGING THE THREAD NAME, you hypocrite?!
You'll see a lot of that if you pay attention.
vince garcia
That's called "deception", linda. His whole thological world view is a
deception, and that's why he perverts paul into his own deceived image,
and renames him "rabbi shaul", putting back on the man a name he
rejected and a title he never ever claimed, and a theology he not only
didn't teach, but fought against. And he does it, absolutely convinced
he is walking in the truth, and has an accurate understanding of the
scriptures and paul.
And if you criticize him and his false theology, you're "antisemitic"
FOOEY as rob says.
Deception wouldn't be deception if you weren't deceived
vince garcia
>
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 01:39:10 -0800 (PST), Snow
> <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 27, 7:01� pm, Pastor Dave <newsgroup-mail @ tampabay.rr.com>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sat, 26 Dec 2009 23:34:50 -0800 (PST), Snow
> >> <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
> >>
> >> > On Dec 27, 10:40� am, Pastor Dave wrote:
> >>
> >> >> And it was this new covenant that they were awaiting:
> >>
> >> >> "In that He says; A NEW COVENANT, He has made
> >> >> � the first obsolete. � Now what is becoming obsolete
> >> >> � and growing old is ready to vanish away."
> >> >> - Heb 8:13
> >>
> >> > Interesting post Dave and food for thought.
> >>
> >> Okay, fair enough.
>
> But is there a basis elsewhere in the Bible for Paul to say this?
> If so, that passage must be taken into account when interpreting this
> one.
>
> There is in Jeremiah 31 which takes place after all the Jews are
> gathered to Israel never to be scattered again, which in turn happens
> after Messiah's return. (So, we know that this is a future event.)
>
> In the Passage, God make a renewed covenant with Israel and Judah
> excluding all non-Jewish people.
And that is the very heart of messianic heresy: Denial of a NEW covenant
by claiming a RENEWED covenant, which means messianics cleave to the
FIRST covenant at sinai, deny there is a NEW one, and thus are heretics
with a false gospel
Terry Cross
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 17:01:19 -0800 (PST), Linda Lee
>
That Christianity fell under the rule of the Pharisees so soon after
the death of Jesus is one of the unsurpassed ironies of history. It
foreshadows such events as Rabbi Joseph Ratzinger ascending to Pope
over the Catholic Church, and the Church of Scientology acquiring the
Cult Awareness Network.
From the context of the whole of the Synoptic Gospels, it is obvious
that Jesus rejected every jot and tittle of Judaism, including Kosher,
Sabbath, blood sacrifice, Temple worship, professional divine
intermediaries (Aronite priests), public prayer, stoning, legalism,
racism, Jewish specialness, the Pharisaic tradition, and the
personality of Jehovah. Even the veil in the Holy of Holies was
ripped from top to bottom.
When Jesus said, "Call no man 'rabbi'," his disgust for the whole
tradition was obvious. When he said the Temple would be reduced to
rubble, we can take that as his meaning.
TCross
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
The word "Torah", simply means "law". The Hebrew
word behind the word translated to "law" is "Towrah",
which we spell as "Torah". What I said stands.
Moses did not sit there and divide up his writing.
All five books were just called "the book of the law"
and all I'm telling you, is that in the earlier OT books,
you'll see references to "the law" and they are
referring to all of the writings that contain laws
that Moses wrote.
I don't know why it is such a problem for you to
accept this, unless you must have your doctrine
and that's that.
You want to talk about what stands today and
this and that and it was all part of the law and
nowhere did God say to keep part of the law
and not the rest.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"To walk in darkness is enlightenment to the carnal mind
and without knowledge of Truth they will deny the same
until the day of judgement." - Unknown
Snow
wrote:
> > The books are called, THE TORAH, not the law.
>
> The word "Torah", simply means "law". The Hebrew
> word behind the word translated to "law" is "Towrah",
> which we spell as "Torah". What I said stands.
Torah, (תורה) is a Hebrew word meaning "teaching", "instruction", or
especially "law". It primarily refers to the first section of the
Tanakh–the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, or the Five Books of
Moses.
@tampabay.rr.com Pastor Dave
<snowp...@eck.net.au> spake thusly:
> On Dec 28, 10:46�pm, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>>> The books are called, THE TORAH, not the law.
>>
>> The word "Torah", simply means "law". �The Hebrew
>> word behind the word translated to "law" is "Towrah",
>> which we spell as "Torah". �What I said stands.
>
> Torah is a Hebrew word meaning "teaching",
> "instruction", or especially "law".
That's what I said.
> It primarily refers to the first section of the Tanakh
> the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, or the
> Five Books of Moses.
Quoting a text (without giving credit btw) does not
make you look smart.
Fact: The Torah is the first five books of the Bible,
which are also the first five books of Moses,
which was the books he wrote anyway.
Fact: When the word "law" was used, to denote
reading the law, it is the word "towrah"
that is there.
Fact: "The law" was considered to be those books.
You tried to quote someone else, not even understanding
and thinking they were saying there is some kind of
difference between the books mentioned. There isn't.
You did not "save yourself" from being wrong.
You are wrong. The law is the first five books,
that is what I said it is, so again, you were wrong.
Now just 'fess up and get over it and stop pretending
that you get to pick out what you want and call that
"the law".
Linda Lee
translated "law" to refer to the five books of Moses AS WELL AS OTHER
WRITINGS IN THE TANAKH/Hebrew Scriptures:
The "law" referring to the Psalms (Psa. 35:19 & 69:4):
John 15:25 "But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled
that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause".
The "law" referring to the Psalms (Psa. 110:4):
John 12:34 "The people answered him, We have heard out of the law
that Christ abideth for ever".
The "law" referring to the Psalms (Psa. 82:6):
John 10:34 "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I
said, Ye are gods?"
The "law" referring to the Pentateuch (five books of Moses):
Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake
unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,
which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in
the psalms, concerning me."
Concerning the "great commandment" in the "law" referring to Deut. 6:5
in the Pentateuch:
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
randy
"Snow"
randy
> "...Because of Jesus remarks to the young rich man, I think it best to
> just
> say the 10 commandments apply to all NT christians, as well as all
> sojourner
> commands in the Hebrew Scriptures."
> I think it needs to be reaffirmed again and again that the covenant of Law
> is done away with, kaput!
"Yehoshua never made such a statement, why do you?"
First of all, on the Mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were clearly
given to *defer to Christ.* Secondly, Jesus predicted the complete collapse
of the temple system, which implies that the entire covenant system of the
Law would collapse with his own death.
Over and over again Jesus emphasized that his death would serve a special
purpose in the salvation of Israel, by providing the basis for a hope in
resurrection. Resurrection was critical for salvation, to Jesus, and was
based exclusively on adherance to the spirituality of Jesus--having nothing
to do whatsoever with the Law of Moses, which was a system doomed to fail.
Finally, I would point out that Jesus repeatedly consigned the leadership
under the Law of Moses to failure. Their spirituality was found lacking, as
demonstrated in their failure to receive messianic teachings.
The teachings of Messiah are squarely focused on *Jesus alone,* and not on
the Law. Even while Israel was still under the Law, Jesus made it clear that
salvation was based squarely on himself, who alone was the key to eternal
life. Observing the Law was therefore just a temporary conformity to
righteousness, until the basis for resurrection could be established with
the death of Jesus.
All righteousness today is based not on the Law of Moses, but rather on the
spirituality of Jesus, to which the Law pointed. Once the system of Law had
collapsed, all that remained was our conformity to the *spirituality of
Jesus.* And I do admit that Jesus' commandments do bear a resemblance to the
moral aspects of the Law of Moses.
randy
randy
"Snow"
randy
> "doug delt"
> "...Because of Jesus remarks to the young rich man, I think it best to
> just
> say the 10 commandments apply to all NT christians, as well as all
> sojourner
> commands in the Hebrew Scriptures."
> I think it needs to be reaffirmed again and again that the covenant of Law
> is done away with, kaput!
"Yehoshua never made such a statement, why do you?"
As I have been saying, everything Jesus said about the continuing validity
of the Law took place *while the Law remained in effect.* Jesus did *not*
assume the Law would remain in effect beyond his generation because he said
the infrastructure of the Law, the temple, would completely be demolished in
his own generation. Even more importantly, Jesus said the basis of fidelity
under the Law, acceptance of his messiahship, would be lost, and he himself
would be murdered. This means that Jesus viewed the Law as lost as a
contract at the point where he would be delivered up to the Romans to death.
Both the Jewish people and the religious leadership would be held
accountable, and salvation at that point would depend upon his own mercy,
following his resurrection from the dead.
randy