"Rapture" for Emma

[fact-c...@hotmail.com]

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: Emma <e...@newsguy.com>
Date: 10 Jan 2006 02:56:51 -0800
Local: Tues, Jan 10 2006 4:56 am
Subject: Re: How the Jews are Saved

Emma wrote:
...
> I see that you believe in rapture theology, Suzanne,
> but did you know that the majority of Christians don't?
> Apparently, it originated in the 19th century,
> and is more a Pentecostal theology. It's not
> mainstream.
> This theology would mean that Jesus will return a third
> time btw.

=========

The quotes below show that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church
have always believed in the Rapture, our being caught up in the air to
join Jesus at the Second Coming.

What they disagree with is the unBiblical teaching that began in the
1800's which claims that the Rapture will happen before the Great
Tribulation.

A Rapture after the Great Tribulation gives only 2 comings of Jesus and
matches what the Bible says.

Only a Rapture before the Great Tribulation would give 3 comings of
Jesus and thus contradict the Bible.

--------Catholic view of Rapture----------

Catholic Answers

...

Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the
rapture-though it was not called that at the time-would occur
immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of
persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational"
view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

...

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event
of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though
they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event
(somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text
of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17-"we will be caught up," [Latin:
rapiemur]).

...

- quoted from
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

--------Orthodox view of Rapture----------

What is 'The Rapture?' (Part 1 of 2)

By Fr. Dimitri Cozby
St. Anthony the Great Mission
San Antonio, TX

...

St. Paul does speak of a sort of rapture, in the sense of a carrying up
into the sky of the righteous at the time of the Second Coming. The
Fathers generally agree on that.

...

If we respond to His exhortation, then, when He returns, we will go to
meet Him in the clouds, escort Him to His Judgment Seat, and stand at
His Right Hand with the prophets, the apostles, the martyrs and all the
saints, ready to enter the glory of His Kingdom.

>From The Dawn
Publication of the Diocese of the South
Orthodox Church in America
September 1998

- quoted from
http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/cozby_rapture1.htm

and

http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/cozby_rapture2.htm

---------end quote------------

[Digim...@starpower.net]

That is true, however it is nowhere called "The Rapture".

[emmas...@yahoo.co.uk]

Why have you crossposted this?

And what I said is still true. Rapture theology
(and when anyone uses that term they are generally
referring to your last example above)
is only believed by a tiny, tiny, tiny minority of
Christians. Mainly in the US.

I think there is an assumption among some American
Christians that charismatic born-again Christianity, including
rapture theology, is mainstream Christianity. Whereas outside
the US, it's largely unknown.
Most christians are not born-again.

I suppose you are going to disagree with me though...

[Terry Cross]

I warned you that Emma does not know the meaning of the word. She
still thinks "rapture" means "great happiness."

TCross

[emmas...@yahoo.co.uk]

Well, I suppose it means that too.
I'm not sure why you think I don't
know the theology though.

I've read the Rapture Ready website.
And very funny it was too :-)

[fact-c...@hotmail.com]

===========

I just proved to you that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church
believe in a post-Trib Rapture.

In another thread I told you that the Rapture is described in Matthew
24:27-31, I Corinthians 15:51-53, I Thessalonians 4:13-17, and
Revelation 11:7-12.

So, you are stupidly claiming that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox
Church do not exist outside of the United States, and you are stupidly
claiming that nobody outside of the United States has read Matthew
24:27-31, I Corinthians 15:51-53, I Thessalonians 4:13-17, and
Revelation 11:7-12 which caused the Catholic Church and the Orthodox
Church to believe in the post-Trib Rapture.

"Rapture" simply refers to our being caught up into the air to be
joined with Jesus when he returns.

============

> Most christians are not born-again.
>
> I suppose you are going to disagree with me though...

===========

Emma has just grabbed Jesus' statement in John 3:3 and flushed it down
the toilet because she doesn't think that Jesus' words have any
authority in Christianity.

- moshe

[Terry Cross]

Jesus does not rule the Church of England - the Queen does. Check it
out.

TCross

[randy]

<emmas...@yahoo.co.uk>
> fact-c...@hotmail.com

> And what I said is still true. Rapture theology
> (and when anyone uses that term they are generally
> referring to your last example above)
> is only believed by a tiny, tiny, tiny minority of
> Christians. Mainly in the US.

Actually, it's a fairly large number of evangelical
Christians in the U.S. I know that over the last several
decades, as I went into Christian book stores, I noticed
that the "prophecy" section was always dominated by those
advocating the pretribulational Rapture position. There has
been a slow stream developing that propose the
postribulational position, and I hope the trend continues.
If you consider the pretrib movies, the pretrib "Left
Behind" series, and many pretrib books, you'd have to
acknowledge that pretribism is the dominant position in some
parts of the church.

Dallas Theological Seminary, Hal Lindsay, Chuck Smith, Oral
Roberts, and many pentecostals and baptists hold to the
pretrib position. Pat Robertson and Walter Martin are a
couple of the prominent postrib Christians (Martin is dead
now). I haven't really visited the subject for some time
now.

> I think there is an assumption among some American
> Christians that charismatic born-again Christianity,
> including
> rapture theology, is mainstream Christianity. Whereas
> outside
> the US, it's largely unknown.
> Most christians are not born-again.

The pretrib position began in Great Britain, through Edward
Irving and John Darby. A foothold was gained in America
through the Scofield Reference Bible, which had pretrib
notes in it. Many naive Christians thus came to feel that
pretrib interpretations of the Bible were normal.

I wouldn't disagree with you that most Christians are not
born again. Do you consider yourself born again?
randy

[Emma]

In article <jbidnQNKxbXo_Vne...@wavecable.com>, randy says...

>
>
><emmas...@yahoo.co.uk>
>> fact-c...@hotmail.com
>
>> And what I said is still true. Rapture theology
>> (and when anyone uses that term they are generally
>> referring to your last example above)
>> is only believed by a tiny, tiny, tiny minority of
>> Christians. Mainly in the US.
>
>Actually, it's a fairly large number of evangelical
>Christians in the U.S.

Yes, I know that millions of American Christians believe
it, but I think they are still a minority even
within America.

>
>> I think there is an assumption among some American
>> Christians that charismatic born-again Christianity,
>> including
>> rapture theology, is mainstream Christianity. Whereas
>> outside
>> the US, it's largely unknown.
>> Most christians are not born-again.
>
>The pretrib position began in Great Britain, through Edward
>Irving and John Darby. A foothold was gained in America
>through the Scofield Reference Bible, which had pretrib
>notes in it. Many naive Christians thus came to feel that
>pretrib interpretations of the Bible were normal.

True, but it was largely rejected here.

>I wouldn't disagree with you that most Christians are not
>born again. Do you consider yourself born again?

Yes

--
******
Emma
http://www.cfoi.co.uk/

[Emma]

In article <1136937517....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
fact-c...@hotmail.com says...

>
>> And what I said is still true. Rapture theology
>> (and when anyone uses that term they are generally
>> referring to your last example above)
>> is only believed by a tiny, tiny, tiny minority of
>> Christians. Mainly in the US.
>>
>> I think there is an assumption among some American
>> Christians that charismatic born-again Christianity, including
>> rapture theology, is mainstream Christianity. Whereas outside
>> the US, it's largely unknown.
>
>===========
>
>I just proved to you that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church
>believe in a post-Trib Rapture.
>
>In another thread I told you that the Rapture is described in Matthew
>24:27-31, I Corinthians 15:51-53, I Thessalonians 4:13-17, and
>Revelation 11:7-12.
>
>So, you are stupidly claiming that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox
>Church do not exist outside of the United States, and you are stupidly
>claiming that nobody outside of the United States has read Matthew
>24:27-31, I Corinthians 15:51-53, I Thessalonians 4:13-17, and
>Revelation 11:7-12 which caused the Catholic Church and the Orthodox
>Church to believe in the post-Trib Rapture.
>
>"Rapture" simply refers to our being caught up into the air to be
>joined with Jesus when he returns.

You've misunderstood me.
The mainstream churches do believe in a rapture, although
they tend not to call it that.
I was just repeating my original point that pre-trib
rapture is mainly an American theology that is fairly
recent and believed by a tiny, tiny moinority of
Christians worldwide.

>
>> Most christians are not born-again.
>>
>> I suppose you are going to disagree with me though...
>
>===========
>
>Emma has just grabbed Jesus' statement in John 3:3 and flushed it down
>the toilet because she doesn't think that Jesus' words have any
>authority in Christianity.
>

What are you going on about???

"Most Christians are not born-again" is a
fact.

(Stop crossposting! This has no relevance to SCJ!)

[Cleo]

"randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote in message
news:jbidnQNKxbXo_Vne...@wavecable.com...

Randy, why is it so important that a person believes in a post trib rapture
as oppose to a pre or mid? I like what a minister that I knew said about the
whole thing, he said he was a pan, whaever happens, with G-d, it will all
pan out just fine.

Cleo

[randy]

"Cleo"
> "randy"

> Randy, why is it so important that a person believes in a
> post trib rapture
> as oppose to a pre or mid? I like what a minister that I
> knew said about the
> whole thing, he said he was a pan, whaever happens, with
> G-d, it will all
> pan out just fine.

It isn't a huge deal with me. It doesn't determine your
salvation. But the book of Revelation says that it's
important that we not add nor subtract to the contents of
the book. We shouldn't add a pretrib rapture by some
supposed symbolism if the literal theology is not there. We
shouldn't take away from the Christian experience under
Antichrist if that is what the book clearly describes. We
need to learn the things in Revelation that God says is
important. Every thing in the book of Revelation is
important, and the lion's share of the book is about
Christian endurance in the time of tribulation. This has had
great value in history in terms of encouraging the church in
hard times. And in our day, in countries such as the U.S. we
need to make sure we don't get sleepy and self-assured. The
"good times" are so fleeting, and enemies arise almost
beneath our notice. Before we know it, we've lost territory
and people are in desperate need of help.
randy

[fact-c...@hotmail.com]

=======

I have explained why several times here over the years:

1. If you believe in a pre-Trib Rapture and the Trib starts and you are
still here, you will doubt your own salvation, thinking that you must
have missed the Rapture for some reason.
You will then abandon your original, Biblical understanding of
salvation looking for some alternate understanding of salvation to
explain why you were allegedly left behind.
"I believed in Jesus and I was left behind anyway, so obviously belief
in Jesus is not really the way to salvation."

2. When the most trying time of your entire life is about to happen,
the Great Tribulation, you need to be spiritually prepared well in
advance.
Otherwise, you are like a person who suddenly tries to run the Boston
Marathon with no advance training whatsoever.
You are almost guaranteed to fail because you did not adequately
prepare.
You will be like a man who is suddenly expected to lift 100 pounds even
though he has never lifted anything heavier than 15 pounds in his
entire life.
You are almost guaranteed to fail because you did not adequately
prepare

3. There is something very wrong with the basic theology of a Christian
if he thinks that he is not expected to take up his own cross and
suffer for Jesus' sake, which is exactly what the Great Tribulation is.
Why shouldn't we be expected to suffer just as much as the original
Christians did?

Telling people that there is a pre-Trib Rapture is like telling people,
"Sure, a giant freight train is headed right at you, but don't do
anything about it because you will be magically beamed out of here just
before the train is about to hit you."

The truth is that Christians better be all prayed up and as spiritually
strong as the apostle Paul when the Great Tribulation hits, because God
will expect Christians to stand strong and witness for Jesus and
glorify God in the face of terrible onslaught, just as the original
Christians did.
If we spiritually are 98-pound weaklings because we did not spiritually
prepare for the Great Trib, we will be lousy witnesses who embarrass
God by folding under in the first few days.

- moshe

[fact-c...@hotmail.com]

==========

Show where any post of yours before this one spoke of a "pre-Trib
Rapture" rather than "Rapture".

==========

> that is fairly
> recent and believed by a tiny, tiny moinority of
> Christians worldwide.
>
>
> >
> >> Most christians are not born-again.
> >>
> >> I suppose you are going to disagree with me though...
> >
> >===========
> >
> >Emma has just grabbed Jesus' statement in John 3:3 and flushed it down
> >the toilet because she doesn't think that Jesus' words have any
> >authority in Christianity.
> >
>
> What are you going on about???
>
> "Most Christians are not born-again" is a
> fact.

==========

Jesus in John chapter 3 said that if you are not born again then you
are not a Christian.

===========

>
> (Stop crossposting! This has no relevance to SCJ!)

===========

Cindy says "Stay away from SCJ".

Jesus said "Take the Gospel everywhere".

Which person should we obey?

See Acts 5:29.

[randy]

<fact-c...@hotmail.com>
> Cleo

> 1. If you believe in a pre-Trib Rapture and the Trib
> starts and you are
> still here, you will doubt your own salvation, thinking
> that you must

> have missed the Rapture for some reason....

Actually, I don't think it's possible for Cleo to find
herself in the Tribulation, thinking she missed the
"Rapture." When Antichrist arises, he will look just like
any other demented political leader of the past, who hates
Christians and who hates Jews. And there certainly won't be
any grand departure of Christians throughout the world, to
make Cleo think she "missed the Rapture!" How can Cleo
possibly think she "missed" the Rapture?

> 2. When the most trying time of your entire life is about
> to happen,
> the Great Tribulation, you need to be spiritually prepared
> well in
> advance.
> Otherwise, you are like a person who suddenly tries to run
> the Boston
> Marathon with no advance training whatsoever.
> You are almost guaranteed to fail because you did not
> adequately
> prepare.
> You will be like a man who is suddenly expected to lift
> 100 pounds even
> though he has never lifted anything heavier than 15 pounds
> in his
> entire life.
> You are almost guaranteed to fail because you did not
> adequately
> prepare

Excellent!

> 3. There is something very wrong with the basic theology
> of a Christian
> if he thinks that he is not expected to take up his own
> cross and
> suffer for Jesus' sake, which is exactly what the Great
> Tribulation is.
> Why shouldn't we be expected to suffer just as much as the
> original
> Christians did?

This is so true. When I began to suffer various problems in
my life, it didn't matter whether it was due to mistakes I
made, or due to mistakes other people made. The fact is, God
forced upon me trials of many kinds, and I had to cope with
them. To my great grief I discovered that other Christians
became "Job's friends," ridiculing me as "unbelieving" and
"weak." They accused me of failing to appropriate "divine
health" and "faith healing." They accused me of being
"unforgiving" and "rebellious," of harboring "bitterness" or
just rejecting God's living word to my heart. Great cruelty
was inflicted upon me by fellow Christians in the times of
my testing, and I wasn't very well prepared. So your
warnings have tremendous weight with me (and with God, I
believe).

> Telling people that there is a pre-Trib Rapture is like
> telling people,
> "Sure, a giant freight train is headed right at you, but
> don't do
> anything about it because you will be magically beamed out
> of here just
> before the train is about to hit you."

Yes, Christianity is not "Star Trek!" ;)

> The truth is that Christians better be all prayed up and
> as spiritually
> strong as the apostle Paul when the Great Tribulation
> hits, because God
> will expect Christians to stand strong and witness for
> Jesus and
> glorify God in the face of terrible onslaught, just as the
> original
> Christians did.
> If we spiritually are 98-pound weaklings because we did
> not spiritually
> prepare for the Great Trib, we will be lousy witnesses who
> embarrass
> God by folding under in the first few days.

Well said!
randy

[fact-c...@hotmail.com]

randy wrote:
> <fact-c...@hotmail.com>
> > Cleo
>
> > 1. If you believe in a pre-Trib Rapture and the Trib
> > starts and you are
> > still here, you will doubt your own salvation, thinking
> > that you must
> > have missed the Rapture for some reason....
>
> Actually, I don't think it's possible for Cleo to find
> herself in the Tribulation, thinking she missed the
> "Rapture." When Antichrist arises, he will look just like
> any other demented political leader of the past, who hates
> Christians and who hates Jews. And there certainly won't be
> any grand departure of Christians throughout the world, to
> make Cleo think she "missed the Rapture!" How can Cleo
> possibly think she "missed" the Rapture?

=========

The anti-Christ would be sitting in a Temple in Jerusalem commanding
the killing of Christians making the presence of the Great Trib
unmistakable.

Since the anti-Christ would be sitting in the Temple, Cleo would assume
that somebody somewhere *must* have been raptured even though she is
unable to see that anyone in particular is missing from among her
acquaintances.

The fact that everyone in Cleo's church would still be around could be
interpreted as:
"We *all* in this church missed the Rapture because we *all* had
incorrect doctrines regarding salvation! The only people missing are
people we didn't fellowship with! When Jesus said that only a few
people would find their way through the narrow gate, that apparently
meant so few people that when they disappear we won't necessarily
notice the difference!"

- moshe

[Terry Cross]

You realize, of course, that one of the signs of the Great Tribulation
is people using "fellowship" as a verb?

TCross

[fact-c...@hotmail.com]

==========

That was a typo.

It should have read:

"Hanging in my crib with my homies 'cause I don't care of the man
disses us and gives us no juice in the hood 'cause we got our own juice
in the crib."

[Translation for the people in Arkansas: "You city folk laugh at us? We
ain't the ones payin' $2 for for 16 ounces of water in a bottle. We're
the ones who spent 15 cents puttin' that water in the bottle so that we
could ship it to you city folk and charge you $2 for it. "Francois'
Mineral Springs" used to be the well for waterin' Bubba's hogs."]

- moshe

[Cleo]

<fact-c...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137002679....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Oh Morris, you are so funny. Yes there would be people that would leave
their salvation. But these will be people who do not have an indept
knowledge of what the Word says. They will be people who got "saved" to
excapt the firey death of hell. But not those who love the L-rd their G-d
with all their heart mind soul and strength, also Morris I have read what
you have said so I have been forwarned.

Cleo
>
> - moshe
>

[Lester John]

> That is true, however it is nowhere called "The Rapture".

Nowhere does scripture speal about "The Great Tribulation", is does however
speak about:

1. Tribulation [John 16:33]
2. Great Tribulation [Revelation 7:14]
3. Great Tribulation such as there has never been before and will not be
after: [Matthew 24:21]

[3] may be considered to be *The* Great Tribulation", but [2] is great
tribulation.

[2] occurs at the 6th seal, but things get really bad after the 7th seal
[Revelation 8]. In the times of the 7th seal, then the 2 witnesses prophesy.
However by then the "rapture"= first part of the "first resurrection" has
already occured (6th seal).

in Jesus' Name,
Lester

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have
peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have
overcome the world.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These
are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

[Cleo]

"randy" <rkl...@wavecable.com> wrote in message

news:oKCdnfgYI4dfolje...@wavecable.com...

>
> <fact-c...@hotmail.com>
> > Cleo
>
> > 1. If you believe in a pre-Trib Rapture and the Trib
> > starts and you are
> > still here, you will doubt your own salvation, thinking
> > that you must
> > have missed the Rapture for some reason....
>
> Actually, I don't think it's possible for Cleo to find
> herself in the Tribulation, thinking she missed the
> "Rapture." When Antichrist arises, he will look just like
> any other demented political leader of the past, who hates
> Christians and who hates Jews. And there certainly won't be
> any grand departure of Christians throughout the world, to
> make Cleo think she "missed the Rapture!" How can Cleo
> possibly think she "missed" the Rapture?

Thank you Randy.

Cleo

[Emma]

In article <1137005270.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
fact-c...@hotmail.com says...

>
>
>That was a typo.
>
>It should have read:
>
>"Hanging in my crib with my homies 'cause I don't care of the man
>disses us and gives us no juice in the hood 'cause we got our own juice
>in the crib."
>
>[Translation for the people in Arkansas: "You city folk laugh at us? We
>ain't the ones payin' $2 for for 16 ounces of water in a bottle. We're
>the ones who spent 15 cents puttin' that water in the bottle so that we
>could ship it to you city folk and charge you $2 for it. "Francois'
>Mineral Springs" used to be the well for waterin' Bubba's hogs."]
>

Could I have a translation of the translation?

[fact-c...@hotmail.com]

=======

Queen's English: "Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango"

[Ha SATAN [Sin Tet Nun]]

fact-c...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Emma wrote:
> > In article <1136937517....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > fact-c...@hotmail.com says...
> > >

> > >:7-12.
> > >
> > >So, you are stupidly claiming that the Catholic Church and the

> Cindy says "Stay away from SCJ".
>
> Jesus said "Take the Gospel everywhere".
>
> Which person should we obey?
>
> See Acts 5:29.

so you obey the RaPa, not the Yeshua character.
The Yeshua character came to Yisrael.
His work was finished, he said so.

[Emma]

In article <1137041778....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
fact-c...@hotmail.com says...

Ah yes. That's better.

[Emma]

In article <1136999082.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
fact-c...@hotmail.com says...

>
>>
>> You've misunderstood me.
>> The mainstream churches do believe in a rapture, although
>> they tend not to call it that.
>> I was just repeating my original point that pre-trib
>> rapture is mainly an American theology
>
>==========
>
>Show where any post of yours before this one spoke of a "pre-Trib
>Rapture" rather than "Rapture".

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

...Although I'm only saying that because I think it's
impolite to suggest that you're stupid! :-)

==========
>> that is fairly
>> recent and believed by a tiny, tiny moinority of
>> Christians worldwide.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> Most christians are not born-again.
>> >>
>> >> I suppose you are going to disagree with me though...
>> >
>> >===========
>> >
>> >Emma has just grabbed Jesus' statement in John 3:3 and flushed it down
>> >the toilet because she doesn't think that Jesus' words have any
>> >authority in Christianity.
>> >
>>
>> What are you going on about???
>>
>> "Most Christians are not born-again" is a
>> fact.
>
>==========
>
>Jesus in John chapter 3 said that if you are not born again then you
>are not a Christian.

Actually, it doesn't.

Also, you are assuming that everyone agrees with your
definition, which is mainly an American definition.
That's my point; a lot of Americans assume that
all Christians interpret the Bible as they do.

Most Christians are not "born again"
in the sense that many Evangelical Christians in
America would understand it.

>> (Stop crossposting! This has no relevance to SCJ!)
>
>===========
>
>Cindy says "Stay away from SCJ".
>
>Jesus said "Take the Gospel everywhere".
>
>Which person should we obey?
>
>See Acts 5:29.
>

First of all, you aren't taking the Gospel
to anyone. What you do is not evangelism.
The only success you have is in turning people
off Christianity.

Also, the NT tells you to leave when
the message is not welcome.

And you are told to try to live in peace with
everyone...

Romans 12:
If it is possible, as far as it depends on you,
live at peace with everyone.