The Pierced LORD
Frank
for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
(Isaiah 53:5 NIV)
For he was cut off
from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people
he was stricken.
(Isaiah 53:8)
After the sixty-two "sevens,"
the Anointed One will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the ruler who will come
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
(Daniel 9:26)
When you see Jerusalem
being surrounded by armies,
you will know that its desolation is near.
(Luke 21:20)
Jerusalem will be trampled on
by the Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Luke 21:24)
Israel has experienced a hardening in part
until the full number of the Gentiles
has come in.
And so all Israel will be saved,
as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;"
(Romans 11:25-26)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way,
for that day will not come
until the rebellion occurs....
(2 Thessalonians 2:3)
The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
(Isaiah 24:5)
And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
a spirit of grace and supplication.
They will look on me,
the one they have pierced....
(Zechariah 12:10)
--
http://roines.home.mindspring.com
Mordecai!
Frank wrote:
I prefer you telling us about how Morris is persecuted for acting like JC
...
Especially as he went talking about my genitalia.
I am not interested in JC whom I do not know ... I judge dear Christian
brothers - who I can see and touch.
And when you make a choice about how to judge dear Christian brothers -
THAT is your deeds ...
And when words and actions disagree - I believe actions.
I cannot judge JC who is invisible - I judge Christians.
And YOU testify to me that the NT is crap.
Because you refuse to do as JC says.
So take your religion - and shove it.
And go back to dear Jack (oh my dear brother - Hallelujah - how good it is
to hear your lovely words of life) as he spews hatred and condemnation out
of his mouth.
Because - I believe your testimony.
And I have responded - you consider the NT shit - and I agree with your
rejection of it!
--
Mordecai!
When words and actions disagree, believe actions.
When rhetoric and reality disagree, either rhetoric is wrong or reality is
wrong, and reality is Never wrong.
Bear
: But he was pierced
: for our transgressions,
: he was crushed for our iniquities;
: (Isaiah 53:5 NIV)
Your transgressions and iniquities.
: For he was cut off
: from the land of the living;
: for the transgression of my people
: he was stricken.
: (Isaiah 53:8)
That is talking about Israel.
: After the sixty-two "sevens,"
: the Anointed One will be cut off
: and will have nothing.
: The people of the ruler who will come
: will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
: (Daniel 9:26)
Not about your Jesus.
: When you see Jerusalem
: being surrounded by armies,
: you will know that its desolation is near.
: (Luke 21:20)
Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies several times.
: Jerusalem will be trampled on
: by the Gentiles
: until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
: (Luke 21:24)
What is the "times of the Gentiles"?
: Israel has experienced a hardening in part
: until the full number of the Gentiles
: has come in.
: And so all Israel will be saved,
: as it is written:
: "The deliverer will come from Zion;"
: (Romans 11:25-26)
One of Paul's lies.
: Don't let anyone deceive you in any way,
: for that day will not come
: until the rebellion occurs....
: (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
Yawn!
: The earth is defiled by its people;
: they have disobeyed the laws,
: violated the statutes
: and broken the everlasting covenant.
: (Isaiah 24:5)
The laws, statutes and everlasting covenant weren't given to the all the
people of the earth.
: And I will pour out on the house of David
: and the inhabitants of Jerusalem
: a spirit of grace and supplication.
: They will look on me,
: the one they have pierced....
: (Zechariah 12:10)
Nothing to do with Christians.
--
Bear
There but for circumstances go I.
Being an atheist isn’t a choice or act of will — like theism; it’s a
consequence of what one knows and how one reasons.
joes...@hotmail.com
...
> my genitalia.
...
===========
Yes. We know.
joes...@hotmail.com
> "Frank" wrote
> : But he was pierced
> : for our transgressions,
> : he was crushed for our iniquities;
> : (Isaiah 53:5 NIV)
>
> Your transgressions and iniquities.
>
> : For he was cut off
> : from the land of the living;
> : for the transgression of my people
> : he was stricken.
> : (Isaiah 53:8)
>
> That is talking about Israel.
===========
-------begin quote---------
The Rebbe - The Messiah - and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference by
David Berger. The Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, Portland
2001;195pp.
Review Essay by Rabbi J. Immanuel Schochet
Rabbi Schochet has asked to inform the Shluchim & public NOT TO REPRINT
OR PUBLISH IN ANY WAY the following essay without his explicit
permission.
...
A typical example would be the Jewish responses about "the suffering
servant" of Isaiah 53. The polemicists follow the majority opinion of
mediaeval Jewish exegetes that it speaks of the Jewish people, as
opposed to the Christian claim that it speaks of the messiah. This view
is found also among some Talmudic rabbis. It does not negate, however,
the validity of the pervasive Talmudic-Midrashic-Zoharic interpretation
that the subject of that chapter is indeed Mashiach.
...
- quoted from
http://www.shmais.com/printchabad.cfm?ID=279
--------end quote--------
Bear
: Bear wrote:
: > "Frank" wrote
: > : But he was pierced
: > : for our transgressions,
: > : he was crushed for our iniquities;
: > : (Isaiah 53:5 NIV)
: >
: > Your transgressions and iniquities.
: >
: > : For he was cut off
: > : from the land of the living;
: > : for the transgression of my people
: > : he was stricken.
: > : (Isaiah 53:8)
: >
: > That is talking about Israel.
: David Berger. The Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, Portland
: 2001;195pp.
:
: Review Essay by Rabbi J. Immanuel Schochet
Forget the commentaries, read the original.
--
Bear
There but for circumstances go I.
Being an atheist isn't a choice or act of will - like theism; it's a
Mordecai!
joes...@hotmail.com wrote:
Now that's a good little Christian - so loving and kind.
Praise the L_rd and Hallelujah ... what a sweat Christian brother.
Testify of your G_d in public ... How great is the G_d of the Christians -
how kind. I sure want to go tot he G_d of the Christians.
Hallelujah!
This is LOVE ... I so LOVE Christian love.
Oh - I apologize - I have been told this is a joke!
I do so love Christian jokes.
Praise the L_rd - what a JOKE.
And all the Christians burst into laughter ... it is a wonderful joke to
play on your enemies.
Frank
that they may know you, the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
(John 17:3 NIV)
Frank
a stumbling block to Jews
and foolishness to Gentiles,
but to those whom God has called,
both Jews and Greeks,
Christ the power of God
and the wisdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 1:23-24 NIV)
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
Not only that but it does say "THEY have pierced." Now, as far as
anyone can gather from the text of the New Testament, only one person
actually pierced Jesus. So "THEY" didn't pierce him. A p'shat reading
of the text is proof that Jesus didn't fulfill this. If, by "THEY",
one interprets that to mean "by proxy, more than one pierced Jesus",
then that is proof that one must drash in order to get anywhere near
fulfillment of this.
> --
> Bear
>
> There but for circumstances go I.
>
> Being an atheist isn't a choice or act of will - like theism; it's a
Bear
Agreed!
--
Bear
There but for circumstances go I.
Being an atheist isn’t a choice or act of will — like theism; it’s a
Frank
(Psalm 22:16 NIV)
Unless I see the nail marks in his hands
and put my finger where the nails were,
and put my hand into his side,
I will not believe it.
...My Lord and my God!
(John 20:25, 28)
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
Frank wrote:
> they have pierced my hands and my feet.
> (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
>
The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
ripped through from his weight. This is standard Roman technique.
Even the forgers of the Shroud of Turin got THAT right.
Terry Cross
> Frank wrote:
> > they have pierced my hands and my feet.
> > (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
> >
>
> The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
> and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
> ripped through from his weight.
Proof?
> This is standard Roman technique.
And the Roman soldiers always followed the standard, of course. They
were widley noted for being neat and tidy.
TCross
Frank
Reach out your hand and put it into my side.
Stop doubting and believe.
(John 20:27 NIV)
Emma
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>Frank wrote:
>> they have pierced my hands and my feet.
>> (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
>>
>
>The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
>and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
>ripped through from his weight.
This is an interesting point, Patrick.
I've read a bit about it, and one of the theories
is that the nails were hammered through the palms
at an angle and emerged through the wrists.
> This is standard Roman technique.
>Even the forgers of the Shroud of Turin got THAT right.
This interests me too, because it's still a bit
of a mystery.
It was originally thought to be from the Middle
Ages, but the dating was made by taking a
piece of cloth that was part of a re-weaving.
The original cloth is much older.
--
*~~~*Emma*~~~*
http://www.christmas-time.com/deck.htm
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
Terry Cross wrote:
> PatrickDH...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Frank wrote:
> > > they have pierced my hands and my feet.
> > > (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
> > >
> >
> > The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
> > and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
> > ripped through from his weight.
>
> Proof?
>
It wasn't reported that his hands ripped through from his weight, as
would have been the case had the nails gone through his hands.
> > This is standard Roman technique.
>
> And the Roman soldiers always followed the standard, of course. They
> were widley noted for being neat and tidy.
>
They wanted those who were nailed to stay put. He'd have been face
first in the dirt had they not followed the technique.
> TCross
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
Emma wrote:
> In article <1133743622.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> PatrickDH...@hotmail.com says...
> >
> >
> >Frank wrote:
> >> they have pierced my hands and my feet.
> >> (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
> >>
> >
> >The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
> >and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
> >ripped through from his weight.
>
> This is an interesting point, Patrick.
>
> I've read a bit about it, and one of the theories
> is that the nails were hammered through the palms
> at an angle and emerged through the wrists.
>
I don't see how that would have worked without completely
destroying his wrists. The nails need to be between the radius and
ulna so that the weight can be held by an "intact" set of carpels,
i.e., the wrist. If the carpels were disturbed, you wouldn't be able
to rely on the ligaments and tendons to hold them together. Also, you
would risk nicking an artery, which would have resulted in the victim
bleeding to death in about 15 minutes. Since Jesus' death took several
hours, it's safe to assume that wasn't the case.
Terry Cross
> Terry Cross wrote:
>
> > PatrickDH...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Frank wrote:
> > > > they have pierced my hands and my feet.
> > > > (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
> > > >
> > >
> > > The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
> > > and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
> > > ripped through from his weight.
> >
> > Proof?
>
> It wasn't reported that his hands ripped through from his weight, as
> would have been the case had the nails gone through his hands.
You just said the same thing again. What is your evidence that the
hands would have "ripped through from his weight?"
> > > This is standard Roman technique.
What is your authority on that? The Roman Crucifixion Instruction
Manual, field edition?
> > And the Roman soldiers always followed the standard, of course. They
> > were widley noted for being neat and tidy.
>
> They wanted those who were nailed to stay put. He'd have been face
> first in the dirt had they not followed the technique.
Assertion with no proof.
TCross
Bear
: Assertion with no proof.
Somebody intruding on your territory Terry?
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
Terry Cross wrote:
> PatrickDH...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > Terry Cross wrote:
> >
> > > PatrickDH...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > Frank wrote:
> > > > > they have pierced my hands and my feet.
> > > > > (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
> > > > and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
> > > > ripped through from his weight.
> > >
> > > Proof?
> >
> > It wasn't reported that his hands ripped through from his weight, as
> > would have been the case had the nails gone through his hands.
>
> You just said the same thing again. What is your evidence that the
> hands would have "ripped through from his weight?"
>
> > > > This is standard Roman technique.
>
> What is your authority on that? The Roman Crucifixion Instruction
> Manual, field edition?
>
If your interested, you'll do some research. I did.
> > > And the Roman soldiers always followed the standard, of course. They
> > > were widley noted for being neat and tidy.
> >
> > They wanted those who were nailed to stay put. He'd have been face
> > first in the dirt had they not followed the technique.
>
> Assertion with no proof.
>
That's your story. Do you accept the Shroud of Turin? If it's real,
it stands as my proof; if it's not, it stands as proof that my
assertion has a bloody long history of being accurate.
> TCross
Terry Cross
> Terry Cross wrote:
> > PatrickDH...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Terry Cross wrote:
> > >
> > > > PatrickDH...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Frank wrote:
> > > > > > they have pierced my hands and my feet.
> > > > > > (Psalm 22:16 NIV)
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The nails were not put in Jesus' hands, they were put between the ulna
> > > > > and radius just proximal to the wrist; otherwise, his hands would have
> > > > > ripped through from his weight.
> > > >
> > > > Proof?
> > >
> > > It wasn't reported that his hands ripped through from his weight, as
> > > would have been the case had the nails gone through his hands.
> >
> > You just said the same thing again. What is your evidence that the
> > hands would have "ripped through from his weight?"
> >
> > > > > This is standard Roman technique.
> >
> > What is your authority on that? The Roman Crucifixion Instruction
> > Manual, field edition?
> >
>
> If your interested, you'll do some research. I did.
All I asked you to do is to share your research, the same as would be
asked of anyone else making incredible statements.
> > > > And the Roman soldiers always followed the standard, of course. They
> > > > were widley noted for being neat and tidy.
> > >
> > > They wanted those who were nailed to stay put. He'd have been face
> > > first in the dirt had they not followed the technique.
> >
> > Assertion with no proof.
>
> That's your story. Do you accept the Shroud of Turin?
I have never seen the Shroud, and I don't trust anyone who would test
it. I consider the validity not provable because I cannot prove it
myself. The origin of the Shroud is itself shrouded in convenient
mystery.
> If it's real,
> it stands as my proof; if it's not, it stands as proof that my
> assertion has a bloody long history of being accurate.
You are not making a coherent statement. Accuracy can only be measured
by comparison with a known truth. In this case the truth is in
dispute. Hence the accuracy of the (unaccredited) Shroud is not known.
TCross
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
Irrespective of your inability to grasp what I said. I'll submit this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion
It says, quite clearly, what I've been saying all along.
> TCross
fla...@verizon.net
On 5-Dec-2005, "Bear" <bigbe...@nativeweb.net> wrote:
> "Terry Cross" wrote
> : Assertion with no proof.
>
> Somebody intruding on your territory Terry?
Knowing Terry, it's doubtless another projectionary episode.
Susan
Terry Cross
- Showing that you have found at least one other person to agree with
you. That, however, is insufficient authority on which to base a
statement of fact.
So you have religious relic of nebulous origin and an anything-goes
Hawaiian poi-pot of an encyclopedia. So far you have sufficient basis
to found an urban legend.
TCross
Boed...@isp.com
Psalm 22.
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
The urban legend is that his hands were pierced. I'll submit a few
more sites for your perusal, then:
http://www.dyeager.org/skeptic/deathofjesus.php
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1115727/posts
http://www.wesleymission.org.au/ministry/TRA/2002/020421.html
http://beta.communities.jp.msn.com/TwelveTribesLiveUp/stigmata.msnw
http://www.konnections.com/Kcundick/crucifix.html
http://www.apu.edu/infocus/2002/03/crucifixion/
That OUGHT to be enough. There are hundreds out there and they
all say the same thing. The nails would rip through the hands if
placed in the "traditional" location of the palms. It's all down to
poor translation, though, really.
> TCross
Terry Cross
I don't see any lab tests among your references. So far, we have just
the speculation. Is that good enough for you?
I note this: The Greek meaning of "hands" includes the wrist.
http://www.apu.edu/infocus/2002/03/crucifixion/
Is that ambiguous Greek hand/wrist word used in the Gospels?
I not also that you are quoting from Christian web pages. Does this
indicate a change in Patrick's assessment of the truth of Christian
literature?
TCross
PatrickDH...@hotmail.com
No. The first site I provided gives a doctor's analysis of
crucifixion. The third site sites archaeological evidence of the fact.
I don't give a single turd if you believe archaeological evidence or
not. The fifth site mentions "Historical Roman accounts and
experimental work have established that the nails were driven between
the small bones of the wrists (radial and ulna) and not through the
palms." A statement that experiments were performed.
> I note this: The Greek meaning of "hands" includes the wrist.
> http://www.apu.edu/infocus/2002/03/crucifixion/
>
Thus my reference to a poor translation.
> Is that ambiguous Greek hand/wrist word used in the Gospels?
>
Yes. And poorly translated as "hand". Thus, all the stupid paintings
giving a false impression.
> I not also that you are quoting from Christian web pages. Does this
> indicate a change in Patrick's assessment of the truth of Christian
> literature?
>
As I've said many times, I don't disagree with every single word
in the New Testament. If Jesus was crucified, then it was done
according to Roman traditions and the facts of how that was done are
known. I don't care what site has the truth regarding the topic of
discussion. I'm only listing a few sites that spoke the truth
regarding crucifixion. I wasn't looking for anything else. You might
well find, on balance, more truth on those kind of sites than in the
New Testament itself; but, I'm not going to be studying them looking
for that possibility, that's for sure.
> TCross