Why I Don’t Believe in Atheism

[jope]

By Joe McKeever


“In the beginning, God….” (Genesis 1:1)

"Nowhere does the Bible try to prove the existence of God. He is.
Period.

Deal with it, earthlings.

Humanistic evangelists and atheistic peddlers are sure that we
mindless theists have never considered the superior evidence for the
positions they hold. Surely, if we did, they think, we would renounce
the church and join them.

Once again, believers are lumped together by those who “just don’t
get it” as the terminally naive, the hopelessly hopeful, the
unthinking uneducated and the irrationally illiterate.

Most of the solid believers I know have considered atheism at one time
or other. I did, while in college. This is not to say I joined the
humanist society of Birmingham or majored in skepticism at Birmingham-
Southern. But I read some of the stuff, talked to a few of the people,
thought about the ramifications of it all, and made my choice to take
my stand with believers.

I’ve never regretted it.

Here’s why.

1) As a rule, atheists tend to be a pretty miserable lot, while the
best Christians I know are also the most put-together, positive, and
effective people in the room.

I heard someone say once, “The devil has no godly old people.” Indeed.
We could add that the Lord also seems to have all the best-mannered,
generous-hearted, goal-oriented achievers. If you look at the product
of atheism and Christianity, there is no contest.

2) Since faith is required for either position, choosing to believe
this amazing universe came together by chance and will go out the same
way requires far more faith than this Alabama farm boy can muster. As
has been said in the book by this title, “I don’t have faith enough to
be an atheist.”

3) While it’s true a large portion of Christians have probably not
investigated various apologetic aspects–evidence for the resurrection,
the historicity of Jesus, the integrity of Scriptures– a great many
have. I sat in the room with Dr. Carl F. H. Henry in the summer of
1978 as he said to some of us, “Christianity is the only world
religion that has come through the scientific revolution and emerged
intact.” Some of the others are fighting tooth and claw to keep
modern technology from taking a look at their authoritative writings.

4) I do like the old line of reasoning that goes: “If the atheist is
true and after death, we all disappear into nothingness, then as a
Christian I have lost nothing. But if Jesus Christ is true and after
death life just begins to get interesting, then the atheist is in a
lot of trouble.” What about that can they not see?

5) If we know people by their fruits, then philosophies should
identify themselves the same way. So, does anyone know any charitable
ministry ever started by the atheists? Show me one and I can show you
a hundred hospitals and colleges, children’s homes and crisis centers
begun by Christ-followers.

6) There are the miracles, such as the existence of Holy Scriptures
(the uniformity of them, the prophecies, the clarity, and a thousand
other aspects), the existence of the Man of Galilee (His birth, life,
death, and resurrection; His teachings and promises, etc), the
existence of the Church (so flawed, without its divine nature, surely
it would have vanished long ago), and the existence of honest inquiry
among believers (a sure sign, if you ask me, that God’s people are
into Truth and nothing else).

7) My testimony–and yours–on the power of Jesus Christ who changed our
lives. And, as C. S. Lewis pointed out, if a skeptic scoffs that my
life is so far inferior to what a true Christian should look like, I
do not argue with that, but reply that my life is still so far beyond
what it would have been without Christ.

The fact is we need God.

We need Him for the simple reason that, as the prophet said, “it is
not in man who walks to direct his own steps.”

I need God to make me more than I would ever be otherwise. I need
growth.

I need God to save me from my natural self-centeredness. I need love..

I need God to take care of friends and loved ones with real needs who
are outside my ability to help. I need prayer.

I need God to guide me in decisions since I do not know what tomorrow
holds and thus what to do with today’s opportunities. I need wisdom.

All by myself, I make a pretty small (and miserable) package.

Thank God, I am not alone here on this small planet. The living God
has singled this one out and has dwelled among us and made it possible
for us to live on a higher plane here and with Him in Heaven forever.

I need God to get me to Heaven.

And because I need God, He sent Jesus.

I could not be an atheist on my worst day. God has done far too much
for me to be so ungrateful."

http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/joe-mckeever/why-i-don-t-believe-in-atheism.html

[Free Lunch]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 09:30:11 -0700 (PDT), jope <jop...@gmail.com> wrote
in alt.talk.creationism:

>
>By Joe McKeever
>
>
>�In the beginning, God�.� (Genesis 1:1)
>
>"Nowhere does the Bible try to prove the existence of God. He is.
>Period.
>

...

>I could not be an atheist on my worst day. God has done far too much
>for me to be so ungrateful."
>
>http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/joe-mckeever/why-i-don-t-believe-in-atheism.html

Mr. McKeever shows us that he is ignorant and has no understanding of
logic or evidence. No wonder jope reposted his nonsense.

[Jope]

On May 24, 1:23 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 09:30:11 -0700 (PDT), jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote

> in alt.talk.creationism:
>
>
>
> >By Joe McKeever
>
> > In the beginning, God . (Genesis 1:1)
>
> >"Nowhere does the Bible try to prove the existence of God.  He is.
> >Period.
>
> ...
>
> >I could not be an atheist on my worst day.  God has done far too much
> >for me to be so ungrateful."
>

> >http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/joe-mckeever/why-i-don-t-believe-in-at...

>
> Mr. McKeever shows us that he is ignorant and has no understanding of
> logic or evidence.  No wonder jope reposted his nonsense.

Replacing lack of understanding with smirk is rather useless.

[David Johnston]

I don't "believe" in Atheism either. I just am one.

[Buncy]

On May 24, 2:43 pm, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
> I don't "believe" in Atheism either.  I just am one.

I don't believe in atheism. I am just an agnostic who is unconvinced
that a supreme being exists who intervenes in the affairs of humans.
So I guess that makes me an atheist because neither do I see that the
universe was "created" by a supreme being.

[Terry Cross]

On May 24, 2:25 pm, Buncy <jls1...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On May 24, 2:43 pm, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
>
> > I don't "believe" in Atheism either.  I just am one.
>
> I don't believe in atheism.  I am just an agnostic who is unconvinced
> that a supreme being exists who intervenes in the affairs of humans.

That is ALL you believe? Come now.
Try a little honestness. (Otis Redding)

> So I guess that makes me an atheist because neither do I see that the
> universe was "created" by a supreme being.

Not quite. You need a BAAWA photo ID, and a receipt for paid-up
dues.

TCross

[harry k]

On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
> By Joe McKeever
>

It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
atheism"

<snip> ridiculous crap

Harry K

[Terry Cross]

On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > By Joe McKeever
>
> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
> atheism"

In daily operation, you are quite wrong. The Communists firmly
believed in what they were doing. The people on your board are
confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
science brings only truth to the world.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."

[Terry Cross]

On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

On the contrary -- it is a package. As much as you claim Christianity
is the belief in heaven and hell, so Atheism is the unwavering belief
that the process of government and industry-financed science (and only
that process) will find the truth of black holes, quarks, and belly-
buttons.

TCross

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 12:37:08 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
wrote:

Atheism is NOT a belief. It is not something to be believed in. That
is like saying I believe in this chair. Theists everywhere just dont
have the mental apptitude to accept facts based on actual tests nor
can they accept life without some type of belief. They even have a
belief that everyone on this earth as a belief in a higher power.
Religon is much like the blind leading the blind.

[Free Lunch]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 12:25:23 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>On May 27, 10:37�am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>
>> >On May 27, 7:22�am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
>> >> On May 24, 9:30�am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > By Joe McKeever
>>
>> >> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
>> >> atheism"
>>
>> >In daily operation, you are quite wrong. �The Communists firmly
>> >believed in what they were doing. �The people on your board are
>> >confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
>> >science brings only truth to the world.
>>
>> But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."
>
>On the contrary -- it is a package.

Such hogwash you spew.

>As much as you claim Christianity
>is the belief in heaven and hell, so Atheism is the unwavering belief
>that the process of government and industry-financed science (and only
>that process) will find the truth of black holes, quarks, and belly-
>buttons.

Do you even care how wrong you are?

[Terry Cross]

On May 27, 12:35 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2013 12:37:08 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
> wrote:
> >On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

> ><tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>
> >>On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> >>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> > By Joe McKeever
>
> >>> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
> >>> atheism"
>
> >>In daily operation, you are quite wrong. The Communists firmly
> >>believed in what they were doing. The people on your board are
> >>confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
> >>science brings only truth to the world.
>
> >But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."
>
> Atheism is NOT a belief. It is not something to be believed in.

Dishonesty is not becoming. All atheists hold as an article of faith
that science will get them THERE. Science is the savior of
humanity.

> That
> is like saying I believe in this chair.

The chair is something YOU can see and feel. Scientific
accomplishments are something you only read or hear about. You don't
understand them, you cannot confirm them, but you accept them ON
FAITH.

> Theists everywhere just dont
> have the mental apptitude to accept facts based on actual tests nor
> can they accept life without some type of belief. They even have a
> belief that everyone on this earth as a belief in a higher power.

Try again?

> Religon is much like the blind leading the blind.

Atheists are willingly led by the mass media, the vested interests,
the polluters of the planet, and the exploiters of humanity. Being an
Atheist, you obviously have no problem with that.

TCross

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 15:35:48 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 27, 12:35 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 12:37:08 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
>> wrote:
>
>The chair is something YOU can see and feel. Scientific
>accomplishments are something you only read or hear about. You don't
>understand them, you cannot confirm them, but you accept them ON
>FAITH.

Ok you are jsut retarded. ya see the think about science is I CAN
CONFIRM the results. although most of the results have either been
proven or disproven multiple times. I surely can confirm them for
myself if I wish. the thing is You dont understand them. you dont have
enough education to know how the scientific process works. when the
results are repeated more than once by different parties then why
would I need to do it again. and yes there is alot of science out
there that is just specultion and I have to decide for mysef based on
my education as to weather ot not I want to accept that as fact.

>
>
>> Theists everywhere just dont
>> have the mental apptitude to accept facts based on actual tests nor
>> can they accept life without some type of belief. They even have a
>> belief that everyone on this earth as a belief in a higher power.
>
>Try again?
>
Theists everywhere just dont have the mental apptitude to accept

that atheists know god is just a myth.

>> Religon is much like the blind leading the blind.
>
>
>Atheists are willingly led by the mass media, the vested interests,
>the polluters of the planet, and the exploiters of humanity. Being an
>Atheist, you obviously have no problem with that.

where do you get this crap from? I know and I hope you know what you
are typing makes as much sense as a frog playing hockey
Atheists are not in any way led by the mass media. I very much loathe
the mass media. They do not publish the truth they publish what sells.
your entire reply can be sumed up by saying lots of words that are
saying nothing

[Terry Cross]

On May 27, 4:34 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2013 15:35:48 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 27, 12:35 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 12:37:08 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
> >> wrote:
>
> >The chair is something YOU can see and feel.  Scientific
> >accomplishments are something you only read or hear about.  You don't
> >understand them, you cannot confirm them, but you accept them ON
> >FAITH.
>
> Ok you are jsut retarded.

Negative emotions are indicators of personal failure. Ad hominem is a
fundamental logical fallacy. And all of that suggests to the jury
that you have hit a wall.

> ya see the think about science is I CAN
> CONFIRM the results.

So you have faith that if you tried and if you had the vast fortune to
expend on equipment, the lifetime of training, and the years of
research, you would get the same results.

But that is a lo-o-ong way from you having any proof. Right now, you
have only FAITH.

And I have nothing against your faith. You can believe in anything
you want. But you should recognize that your faith in what you could
accomplish if you had the Carnegie Fortune, the brains of Henry Ford,
and an immortality injection, -- well, that is just a pipe dream.
Let's wait to see what results you get when and if you ever get that
far.

Right now, you couldn't compute the moon's orbit.

TCross

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 17:47:41 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 27, 4:34 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 15:35:48 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 27, 12:35 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 12:37:08 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >The chair is something YOU can see and feel.  Scientific
>> >accomplishments are something you only read or hear about.  You don't
>> >understand them, you cannot confirm them, but you accept them ON
>> >FAITH.
>>
>> Ok you are jsut retarded.
>
>Negative emotions are indicators of personal failure. Ad hominem is a
>fundamental logical fallacy. And all of that suggests to the jury
>that you have hit a wall.

no because you are trying to counter a metaphor I made

>
>> ya see the think about science is I CAN
>> CONFIRM the results.
>
>So you have faith that if you tried and if you had the vast fortune to
>expend on equipment, the lifetime of training, and the years of
>research, you would get the same results.

no it would not be done on faith it would be done for personal
knowledge and advancement

>
>But that is a lo-o-ong way from you having any proof. Right now, you
>have only FAITH.
>
>And I have nothing against your faith. You can believe in anything
>you want. But you should recognize that your faith in what you could
>accomplish if you had the Carnegie Fortune, the brains of Henry Ford,
>and an immortality injection, -- well, that is just a pipe dream.
>Let's wait to see what results you get when and if you ever get that
>far.
>
>Right now, you couldn't compute the moon's orbit.

How do you know how far I have gotten in calculus... Ahh I see. you
thought I was some uneducated fool that would not know Calculus from
algebra I feel so sorry for you. I am sorry you will live your life in
fear of things you will never know. I am sorry that you have to pray
to 2 gods <if you are a christian> even though you dogma states you
can only prey to one.

[Terry Cross]

On May 27, 6:26 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2013 17:47:41 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 27, 4:34 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 15:35:48 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
> >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >On May 27, 12:35 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 12:37:08 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >The chair is something YOU can see and feel.  Scientific
> >> >accomplishments are something you only read or hear about.  You don't
> >> >understand them, you cannot confirm them, but you accept them ON
> >> >FAITH.
>
> >> Ok you are jsut retarded.
>
> >Negative emotions are indicators of personal failure.  Ad hominem is a
> >fundamental logical fallacy.  And all of that suggests to the jury
> >that you have hit a wall.
>
> no because you are trying to counter a metaphor I made
>
>
>
> >> ya see the think about science is I CAN
> >> CONFIRM the results.
>
> >So you have faith that if you tried and if you had the vast fortune to
> >expend on equipment, the lifetime of training, and the years of
> >research, you would get the same results.
>
> no it would not be done on faith it would be done for personal
> knowledge and advancement

Read it again. It does not say "would have faith" -- it says you
"have faith" (present indicative active) that if you met all those
impossible conditions, you WOULD come up with the same results.

The point is, you believe in things you cannot know and mostly, that
you cannot understand. And that, laddie, is mysticism.

TCross

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Mon, 27 May 2013 22:46:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 27, 6:26 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 17:47:41 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

>

>Read it again. It does not say "would have faith" -- it says you
>"have faith" (present indicative active) that if you met all those
>impossible conditions, you WOULD come up with the same results.
>
>The point is, you believe in things you cannot know and mostly, that
>you cannot understand. And that, laddie, is mysticism.
>
>TCross

ya know I never thought pulling rabbits out of your ass was poaaible
but I must say you are damn good at it... Keep digging up there buddy
you may find gold in dem dere hills

[harry k]

That is still not "belief in atheism". Anyhow, that seems to be
working and has worked since the dawn of history to explain nature.
Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
with wot explain a natural fact?

Harry K

[Terry Cross]

Explanations are a dime a dozen. Producing "explanations" is not the
purpose of science.

> Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
> with wot explain a natural fact?

Explaining nature is one of the purposes of all religions, including
Atheism, your question evokes thousands of answers. The West Coast
Haidas had hundreds of explanations for natural facts, all now classed
as "Raven" stories.

TCross

[Ralph]

Well Cross, how does the record stand today for both 'beliefs'?

[Free Lunch]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:46:18 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

That makes no sense.

>> Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
>> with wot explain a natural fact?
>
>Explaining nature is one of the purposes of all religions, including
>Atheism, your question evokes thousands of answers. The West Coast
>Haidas had hundreds of explanations for natural facts, all now classed
>as "Raven" stories.

You seem to have no idea what words like "science", "explain", "nature",
"atheism", or "purpose" mean.

[Terry Cross]

On May 28, 11:58 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:46:18 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

The first purpose of the Shaman in any tribe is to provide
"explanations." Real science has a higher purpose.

> >> Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
> >> with wot explain a natural fact?
>
> >Explaining nature is one of the purposes of all religions, including
> >Atheism, your question evokes thousands of answers.  The West Coast
> >Haidas had hundreds of explanations for natural facts, all now classed
> >as "Raven" stories.
>
> You seem to have no idea what words like "science", "explain", "nature",
> "atheism", or "purpose" mean.

You seem to think you are totally right and I am totally wrong. Make
sure all the feathers on your headdress are securely fastened.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

Christianity produced a civilization. Atheism almost destroyed it
through the Communist countries.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

False on both claims.

[Immortalist]

On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/joe-mckeever/why-i-don-t-believe-in-at...

George Carlin Religion is bullshit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjVLJKR6g7U

[harry k]

I asked for an example of religion explaining a natural FACT and you
feed me religious nonsense.

Harry K

[harry k]

Wrong, the first purpose of any shaman is to have a life provided for
him so he doesn't have to work ofr it. Still operable today by the
priests.

>
> > >> Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
> > >> with wot explain a natural fact?
>
> > >Explaining nature is one of the purposes of all religions, including
> > >Atheism, your question evokes thousands of answers.  The West Coast
> > >Haidas had hundreds of explanations for natural facts, all now classed
> > >as "Raven" stories.
>
> > You seem to have no idea what words like "science", "explain", "nature",
> > "atheism", or "purpose" mean.
>
> You seem to think you are totally right and I am totally wrong.  Make
> sure all the feathers on your headdress are securely fastened.
>
> TCross

Doesn't need feathers or a headdress, only the ability to actually
think and realize wheich of the two, science or religion, has the
correct explanation for facts of nature. Clue: the sun never stopped
as in that fable and science can (and has) explained why it was
impossible. Just one example

Harry K

[harry k]

Atheism was only a minor part of communism and if you look around you
can find flourishing examples of of communist nations.

Harry K

[harry k]

On May 28, 12:16 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:

And don't for get what a good christian did in WWII. So you don't
have to guess - Hitler.

Harry K

[Terry Cross]

Ah, yes, "Tenure." Very important.

> > > >> Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
> > > >> with wot explain a natural fact?
>
> > > >Explaining nature is one of the purposes of all religions, including
> > > >Atheism, your question evokes thousands of answers.  The West Coast
> > > >Haidas had hundreds of explanations for natural facts, all now classed
> > > >as "Raven" stories.
>
> > > You seem to have no idea what words like "science", "explain", "nature",
> > > "atheism", or "purpose" mean.
>
> > You seem to think you are totally right and I am totally wrong.  Make
> > sure all the feathers on your headdress are securely fastened.
>
> > TCross
>
> Doesn't need feathers or a headdress, only the ability to actually
> think and realize wheich of the two, science or religion, has the
> correct explanation for facts of nature.  Clue:  the sun never stopped
> as in that fable and science can (and has) explained why it was
> impossible.  Just one example

From this example, I gather you equate all religion with the psychoses
you find in the Jewish Torah. Is there a reason you pick that source
above all others?

TCross

[Terry Cross]

As I told you, explanations are a dime a dozen. Providing more
explanations is not a valid scientific purpose.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

I raise you to good Atheists: Stalin and Pol Pot.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 11:57:43 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

You repeat many falsehoods.

[Terry Cross]

On May 29, 1:10 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2013 11:57:43 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

Pol Pot killed somewhere between 6 and 15 million. Stalin killed at
least 30 million Ukrainians. These figures are not normally thought
to be falsehoods.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.

[Terry Cross]

On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
had no problem with that.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

Had you said "the same" I would not have had much problem, but Hitler
was quite cheerful in his use of God and Christianity throughout his
career, including his justification for the Holocaust. Atheism was not a
core part of the murders orchestrated by Stalin or Pol Pot.

[Terry Cross]

On May 29, 4:31 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

Oh, but Atheism WAS absolutely a core part of all those Communist
murders. "Throughout his career" -- yup, yup, that fits for the "the
same" that you would have accepted.

But Karl Marx said Atheism was essential to Communism, indispensable
-- Hitler never said Christianity was indispensable to Fascism. And
all Stalin's and Pol Pot's killings were in the service of the
Communist State, of which Atheism was an "essential" and
"indispensable" part.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 17:03:25 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

Be serious. You clearly know nothing about Marx. All you have is the
evil done in his name by people like Stalin or Pol Pot.

[Jope]

On May 29, 7:31 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

" During his ascent to power, Hitler needed the support of the German
people — both the Bavarian Catholics and the Prussian Lutherans — and
to secure this he occasionally used rhetoric such as "I am doing the
Lord's work." To claim that this rhetoric makes Hitler a Christian is
to confuse political opportunism with personal conviction. Hitler
himself says in Mein Kampf that his public statements should be
understood as propaganda that bears no relation to the truth but is
designed to sway the masses.

The Nazi idea of an Aryan Christ who uses the sword to cleanse the
earth of the Jews — what historians call "Aryan Christianity" — was
obviously a radical departure from the traditional Christian
understanding and was condemned as such by Pope Pius XI at the time.
Moreover, Hitler's anti-Semitism was not religious, it was racial.
Jews were targeted not because of their religion — indeed many German
Jews were completely secular in their way of life — but because of
their racial identity. This was an ethnic and not a religious
designation. Hitler's anti-Semitism was secular.

Hitler's Table Talk, a revealing collection of the Fuhrer's private
opinions, assembled by a close aide during the war years, shows Hitler
to be rabidly anti-religious. He called Christianity one of the great
"scourges" of history, and said of the Germans, "Let's be the only
people who are immunized against this disease." He promised that
"through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity." In
fact, he blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity. He also condemned
Christianity for its opposition to evolution.

Hitler reserved special scorn for the Christian values of equality and
compassion, which he identified with weakness. Hitler's leading
advisers like Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich and Bormann were atheists
who hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence in Germany."

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>> I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
>> fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.
>
>Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
>had no problem with that.
>
>TCross

noone is blaming christianity for hitler. Although I would place a bit
of blame <but not all> on the fact that there is an idea that there is
one true god, and that god expects everyone to bow down and worship
it. Or at least the fact that humans think that people are supossed to
bow down and worship it. Oh wait we are talking aout christianity.
Sorry I mean the multiple gods expect to be worshiped.

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 18:31:39 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>

wrote:

>On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
><tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
>>On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>

>>> >Pol Pot killed somewhere between 6 and 15 million.  Stalin killed at
>>> >least 30 million Ukrainians.  These figures are not normally thought
>>> >to be falsehoods.
>>>
>>> I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
>>> fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.
>>
>>Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
>>had no problem with that.
>
>Had you said "the same" I would not have had much problem, but Hitler
>was quite cheerful in his use of God and Christianity throughout his
>career, including his justification for the Holocaust. Atheism was not a
>core part of the murders orchestrated by Stalin or Pol Pot.

this is true the reason stalin did the killing was because he thought
the ukrane may rise up and declare independance from the ussr

[Terry Cross]

On May 28, 5:07 am, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2013 22:46:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 27, 6:26 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 17:47:41 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
> >Read it again.  It does not say "would have faith"  -- it says you
> >"have faith" (present indicative active) that if you met all those
> >impossible conditions, you WOULD come up with the same results.
>
> >The point is, you believe in things you cannot know and mostly, that
> >you cannot understand.  And that, laddie, is mysticism.
>
> >TCross
>
> ya know I never thought pulling rabbits out of your ass was poaaible

I never thought anyone would be so arrogant they would post something
to a public forum without proofing it or using a spell checker.

TCross



> but I must say you are damn good at it... Keep digging up there buddy
> you may find gold in dem dere hills

[Terry Cross]

On May 30, 4:33 am, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2013 18:31:39 -0500, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

> ><tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>
> >>On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> >>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
> >>> >Pol Pot killed somewhere between 6 and 15 million. Stalin killed at
> >>> >least 30 million Ukrainians. These figures are not normally thought
> >>> >to be falsehoods.
>
> >>> I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
> >>> fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.
>
> >>Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
> >>had no problem with that.
>
> >Had you said "the same" I would not have had much problem, but Hitler
> >was quite cheerful in his use of God and Christianity throughout his
> >career, including his justification for the Holocaust. Atheism was not a
> >core part of the murders orchestrated by Stalin or Pol Pot.
>
> this is true the  reason stalin did the killing was because he thought
> the ukrane may rise up and declare independance from the ussr

Should we consider this to be your history Midrash? The Ukraine had
no army under its own direction, so it is no wonder you don't quote a
source.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

On May 30, 4:31 am, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
> On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> >> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
> >> I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
> >> fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.
>
> >Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
> >had no problem with that.
>
> >TCross
>
> noone is blaming christianity for hitler.

Harry K is no one?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On May 28, 10:24 pm, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
And don't for get what a good christian did in WWII. So you don't
have to guess - Hitler.

Harry K
++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> Although I would place a bit
> of blame <but not all> on the fact that there is an idea that there is
> one true god, and that god expects everyone to bow down and worship
> it.

That IS the Jewish invention. So if you must blame someone for
invention that God, you can blame the Jews.

> Or at least the fact that humans think that people are supossed to
> bow down and worship it. Oh wait we are talking aout christianity.
> Sorry I mean the multiple gods expect to be worshiped.

Since all three religions -- Judaism, Islam, and Christianity --
believe in a good god called God, and a bad god called Satan, they are
all polytheistic.

TCross

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 10:54:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 30, 4:31�am, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> >> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>> >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>> >> I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
>> >> fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.
>>
>> >Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
>> >had no problem with that.
>>
>> >TCross
>>
>> noone is blaming christianity for hitler.
>
>Harry K is no one?
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>On May 28, 10:24 pm, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
>And don't for get what a good christian did in WWII. So you don't
>have to guess - Hitler.

You are seeing shit that is not there.Christianity did not create
hitler it just gave him a good excuse he never said that christianity
created hitler he just said he was a good christian is all. Dude you
seriously have to quit nit picking it makes your side of the argument
weaker everytime you do that

>
>> Although I would place a bit
>> of blame <but not all> on the fact that there is an idea that there is
>> one true god, and that god expects everyone to bow down and worship
>> it.
>
>That IS the Jewish invention. So if you must blame someone for
>invention that God, you can blame the Jews.

actually the concept of a god was aroundf LOOONG before the jews

>
>> Or at least the fact that humans think that people are supossed to
>> bow down and worship it. Oh wait we are talking aout christianity.
>> Sorry I mean the multiple gods expect to be worshiped.
>
>Since all three religions -- Judaism, Islam, and Christianity --
>believe in a good god called God, and a bad god called Satan, they are
>all polytheistic.

oh well I was refering to your 1st god the we can call it the OG, even
though there is nothing original about it. and then your second god
jesus which was created by christianity. so you got your OG and your
JC and the devil and all of the multitudes of demigods <angels and
deamons>
>
>TCross

[bil...@microsoft.com]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 10:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 28, 5:07 am, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 22:46:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 27, 6:26 pm, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 17:47:41 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>
>> >Read it again.  It does not say "would have faith"  -- it says you
>> >"have faith" (present indicative active) that if you met all those
>> >impossible conditions, you WOULD come up with the same results.
>>
>> >The point is, you believe in things you cannot know and mostly, that
>> >you cannot understand.  And that, laddie, is mysticism.
>>
>> >TCross
>>
>> ya know I never thought pulling rabbits out of your ass was poaaible
>
>I never thought anyone would be so arrogant they would post something
>to a public forum without proofing it or using a spell checker.
>
>TCross

I say we take a vote to five TCross a new name. Lets call him
"The Picker of Nits"

would anyone ellse agree?
and maybe I am poor and can not afford a spell checker or maybe I do
have a spell checker and maybe I just never felt the need to plug the
thing in.. it goes in LPT1 doesnt it

[Terry Cross]

It goes in the Nit port, but you need NitPicker.dll installed for it
to run properly.

Believing in things you don't understand is superstition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDZFf0pm0SE

But that is EXACTLY the position of most Atheists -- they don't
understand Black Holes, Quarks, or String Theory and certainly cannot
do the math. They haven't a clue about reading carbon dating numbers,
Plutonium half lives, or the reincarnation of neutrinos. But ho boy,
do they believe it! And they are willing to disenfranchise and
incarcerate anyone who does not believe as they believe.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

"My" first god?

You are apparently addressing ME, but you don't know anything about
me. This is a good illustration of that fact that you don't know the
difference between what you know and what you presume. You say that
science depends on proof, but you have never proved any of it, and you
do not have the skills, knowledge, equipment, or time to prove most of
it. Atheism is a FAITH position for you, just as it is for 99% of all
Atheists.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 13:03:31 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

You act as if you have one. Why come up with this vague and confusing
follow up?

>You are apparently addressing ME, but you don't know anything about
>me. This is a good illustration of that fact that you don't know the
>difference between what you know and what you presume. You say that
>science depends on proof, but you have never proved any of it, and you
>do not have the skills, knowledge, equipment, or time to prove most of
>it. Atheism is a FAITH position for you, just as it is for 99% of all
>Atheists.

Not collecting stamps is a hobby position.

[bil...@m.org]

I am just not going to respond to the weak crap you keep posting faith
requires a belief. I do not believe in atheism I am just an atheist I
dont believe there is no god I just know there is no god. and for the
last freaking time QUIT NITPICKING

[Ralph]

I just checked with my neighbor across the street( he resolves many of
my theology problems for me) and he said that
none of the three religions have elevated Satan to the level of a god.

[Ralph]

Ah, the brilliant bitch strikes again, without one scintilla of
knowledge. Try here Cross, to see
just how wrong you are.

[bil...@m.nu]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 28, 11:56�am, Ralph <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 5/27/2013 3:25 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

>> >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>> >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>

>> >>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
>> >>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> By Joe McKeever
>> >>>> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
>> >>>> atheism"
>> >>> In daily operation, you are quite wrong. �The Communists firmly
>> >>> believed in what they were doing. �The people on your board are
>> >>> confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
>> >>> science brings only truth to the world.
>> >> But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."
>> > On the contrary -- it is a package. �As much as you claim Christianity
>> > is the belief in heaven and hell, so Atheism is the unwavering belief
>> > that the process of government and industry-financed science (and only
>> > that process) will find the truth of black holes, quarks, and belly-
>> > buttons.
>>
>> > TCross
>>
>> � �Well Cross, how does the record stand today for both 'beliefs'?
>
>Christianity produced a civilization. Atheism almost destroyed it
>through the Communist countries.
>
>TCross

that is just so damn stupid. so communisum is the new theist go to
excuse now eh? every few posts you seem to always get back to that.
Well everyone including you know that it is a very weak argument. just
because some communists are atheists doesnt mean they almost destroyed
civilization. I mean that statement just doesnt even make sense. tell
me what role does antheism play in the communist party. Tell me what
role atheism played in any wars started by the communists
stalin killed the ukraines not because of religon I told you that
already
Stalin feared that Ukrainian nationalism and an independent Ukraine
would wreck the Soviet Russian Empire.
http://ukrhistory.tripod.com/page-19.html
dude you are an idiot

[bil...@m.nu]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 12:57:47 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 30, 11:58 am, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 May 2013 10:45:40 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

>Believing in things you don't understand is superstition.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDZFf0pm0SE
>
>But that is EXACTLY the position of most Atheists -- they don't
>understand Black Holes, Quarks, or String Theory and certainly cannot
>do the math. They haven't a clue about reading carbon dating numbers,
>Plutonium half lives, or the reincarnation of neutrinos. But ho boy,
>do they believe it! And they are willing to disenfranchise and
>incarcerate anyone who does not believe as they believe.
>
>TCross

I would venture a guess and say that stephen hawking has a pretty damn
good grasp of all of those things you just listed. and NO you are an
extreme idiot atheists dont give a fuck about

>incarcerate anyone who does not believe as they believe.

I am an antitheist I strongly oppose the idea of a god or if you are a
christian god<s>. I will refute and lame ass claim that some dropout
makes because he feels fear about going to hell. I however will not go
to a church and start shit nor would I do it in a public place. I do
not go around preaching that god is not real. Only christians go
around preaching thier lies and 99% of the time NOONE asked for it.
you have to ask yourself why do they do that?

[bil...@m.nu]

On Tue, 28 May 2013 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 28, 11:58�am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:46:18 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>You seem to think you are totally right and I am totally wrong. Make
>sure all the feathers on your headdress are securely fastened.
>
>TCross

you seem to think that you are not totally wrong. I have never seen
you post anything even a little bit colse to correct

[Terry Cross]

On May 30, 1:10 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2013 13:03:31 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

My answer seems vague and confusing to you only because you are
dishonest, and you are too cowardly to say anything about Judaism, the
mother of these religions. You want to knock the Torah, but would
like us to forget the Torah is a Jewish invention.

I do not worship the Jewish pantheon of hatred, sexism, racism, and
world domination.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

Your religion has a deadly disease. Why should we ignore it?

> every few posts you seem to always get back to that.

I bring it up only when you boast that you could do a good job ruling
the world. Your history proves you could not.

> Well everyone including you know that it is a very weak argument. just
> because some communists are atheists doesnt mean they almost destroyed
> civilization.

One of the doctrines of Atheism requires you to forget history. The
rest of us remember.

> I mean that statement just doesnt even make sense. tell
> me what role does antheism play in the communist party.

Aggressive Atheism is an essential plank in the Communist Party. In
service of that doctrine, most of the Communist parties murdered the
members of other religions when Communism was rising to power.

> Tell me what
> role atheism played in any wars started by the communists
> stalin killed the ukraines not because of religon I told you that
> already

Whether you believe it or not, the clergy protested the murders, and
the clergy were murdered in turn.

> Stalin feared that Ukrainian nationalism and an independent Ukraine

> would wreck the Soviet Russian Empire.http://ukrhistory.tripod.com/page-19.html

> dude you are an idiot

You said "uprising" Now you are changing the story. Can face that
without getting all nasty and hormone squirty?

TCross

[bil...@m.nu]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 30, 1:10�pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 May 2013 13:03:31 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>
>>

>I do not worship the Jewish pantheon of hatred, sexism, racism, and
>world domination.
>
>TCross

as opposed to the christian ones of liars killers and child molesters

[Terry Cross]

On May 30, 5:32 pm, bil...@m.nu wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2013 15:09:57 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 30, 1:10 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 30 May 2013 13:03:31 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
> >I do not worship the Jewish pantheon of hatred, sexism, racism, and
> >world domination.
>
> >TCross
>
> as opposed to the christian ones of liars killers and child molesters

Ooh, we touched a nerve. Isn't it funny when an Atheist takes sides
between religions? It makes one wonder how Atheistic it really is.

TCross

[bil...@m.nu]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 15:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 30, 2:15 pm, bil...@m.nu wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 May 2013 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross

>
>

>Your religion has a deadly disease. Why should we ignore it?

sorry I dont have a religon I am not an idiot like you with one
religon thats says you can only have one god but preaches of at least
2

>
>I bring it up only when you boast that you could do a good job ruling
>the world. Your history proves you could not.

seems to me you brought it up just to kake yourself feel better. ok 1.
I HAVE NEVER said I could do a good job ruling weather it is me or
atheists in general I never said that although it does bring up a good
point that atheists would be the perfect president. andI have already
proven to you I guess in another thread that the face that stalin was
an atheist doesnt mean a damn thing. but if you want to go there I can
always bring up hitler or any number of american christian presidents
that fought pointless wars.
you must think before you type

>
>
>> Well everyone including you know that it is a very weak argument. just
>> because some communists are atheists doesnt mean they almost destroyed
>> civilization.
>
>
>One of the doctrines of Atheism requires you to forget history. The
>rest of us remember.

ok first that is not even a relevant rebuttle and second WTF are you
talking about? are your hands back in your ass digging for gold?

>
>
>> I mean that statement just doesnt even make sense. tell
>> me what role does antheism play in the communist party.
>
>
>Aggressive Atheism is an essential plank in the Communist Party. In
>service of that doctrine, most of the Communist parties murdered the
>members of other religions when Communism was rising to power.

YOU IDIOT
I have never read anytrhing about them killing people because of thier
religon. and you still seem to forget hitler whose murders were done
iin the name of your god

>
>
>> Tell me what
>> role atheism played in any wars started by the communists
>> stalin killed the ukraines not because of religon I told you that
>> already
>
>
>Whether you believe it or not, the clergy protested the murders, and
>the clergy were murdered in turn.
>

show me... until then your words just doesnt mean much. oh and BTW the
clergy would protest any murder but again the murders were not because
of religon in the first place I have already proven that fact

>
>> Stalin feared that Ukrainian nationalism and an independent Ukraine
>> would wreck the Soviet Russian Empire.http://ukrhistory.tripod.com/page-19.html
>> dude you are an idiot
>
>
>You said "uprising" Now you are changing the story. Can face that
>without getting all nasty and hormone squirty?
>
>TCross

LOL that was funny I will call you the nit bitcher now. either you are
a female or a fag which is it?

[bil...@m.nu]

what the hell are you talking about?

[David Johnston]

On 5/27/2013 11:03 AM, Terry Cross wrote:
> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> By Joe McKeever
>>
>> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
>> atheism"
>
> In daily operation, you are quite wrong. The Communists firmly
> believed in what they were doing.

Communism is not the same thing as atheism.

[David Johnston]

On 5/28/2013 1:14 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
> On May 28, 11:58 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:46:18 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 28, 8:03 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:

>>>> On May 27, 12:25 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>

>>>>>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>>>>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>

>>>>>>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>> By Joe McKeever
>>
>>>>>>>> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
>>>>>>>> atheism"
>>
>>>>>>> In daily operation, you are quite wrong. The Communists firmly

>>>>>>> believed in what they were doing. The people on your board are
>>>>>>> confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
>>>>>>> science brings only truth to the world.
>>
>>>>>> But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."
>>
>>>>> On the contrary -- it is a package. As much as you claim Christianity
>>>>> is the belief in heaven and hell, so Atheism is the unwavering belief
>>>>> that the process of government and industry-financed science (and only
>>>>> that process) will find the truth of black holes, quarks, and belly-
>>>>> buttons.
>>
>>>>> TCross
>>

>>>> That is still not "belief in atheism". Anyhow, that seems to be
>>>> working and has worked since the dawn of history to explain nature.
>>
>>> Explanations are a dime a dozen. Producing "explanations" is not the
>>> purpose of science.
>>
>> That makes no sense.
>
>
> The first purpose of the Shaman in any tribe is to provide
> "explanations." Real science has a higher purpose.
>

No it isn't. The first purpose of the shaman is to protect the tribe
from hostile supernatural entities. They hardly ever explain anything.

[Terry Cross]

Communism is one of the Atheist sects.

TCross

[harry k]

On May 29, 11:53 am, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 10:22 pm, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 28, 12:14 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 28, 11:58 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
> > > > On Tue, 28 May 2013 11:46:18 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> > > > <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>

> > > > >On May 28, 8:03 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> > > > >> On May 27, 12:25 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> > > > >> > > <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>

> > > > >> > > >On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> > > > >> > > >> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >> > > >> > By Joe McKeever
>
> > > > >> > > >> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
> > > > >> > > >> atheism"
>
> > > > >> > > >In daily operation, you are quite wrong.  The Communists firmly

> > > > >> > > >believed in what they were doing.  The people on your board are
> > > > >> > > >confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
> > > > >> > > >science brings only truth to the world.
>
> > > > >> > > But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."
>
> > > > >> > On the contrary -- it is a package.  As much as you claim Christianity
> > > > >> > is the belief in heaven and hell, so Atheism is the unwavering belief
> > > > >> > that the process of government and industry-financed science (and only
> > > > >> > that process) will find the truth of black holes, quarks, and belly-
> > > > >> > buttons.
>
> > > > >> > TCross
>
> > > > >> That is still not "belief in atheism".  Anyhow, that seems to be
> > > > >> working and has worked since the dawn of history to explain nature.
>
> > > > >Explanations are a dime a dozen.  Producing "explanations" is not the
> > > > >purpose of science.
>
> > > > That makes no sense.
>
> > > The first purpose of the Shaman in any tribe is to provide
> > > "explanations."  Real science has a higher purpose.
>

> > Wrong, the first purpose of any shaman is to have a life provided for
> > him so he doesn't have to work ofr it.  Still operable today by the
> > priests.
>
> Ah, yes, "Tenure."  Very important.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > >> Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
> > > > >> with wot explain a natural fact?
>
> > > > >Explaining nature is one of the purposes of all religions, including
> > > > >Atheism, your question evokes thousands of answers.  The West Coast
> > > > >Haidas had hundreds of explanations for natural facts, all now classed
> > > > >as "Raven" stories.
>
> > > > You seem to have no idea what words like "science", "explain", "nature",
> > > > "atheism", or "purpose" mean.

>
> > > You seem to think you are totally right and I am totally wrong.  Make
> > > sure all the feathers on your headdress are securely fastened.
>
> > > TCross
>

> > Doesn't need feathers or a headdress, only the ability to actually
> > think and realize wheich of the two, science or religion, has the
> > correct explanation for facts of nature.  Clue:  the sun never stopped
> > as in that fable and science can (and has) explained why it was
> > impossible.  Just one example
>
> From this example, I gather you equate all religion with the psychoses
> you find in the Jewish Torah.  Is there a reason you pick that source
> above all others?
>
> TCross

Didn't like my ref to the Christian bible? How did you get it to be
to the Torah?
Here is another example.

Science has flat proven that the Noahic Flood never happened
andbecause of physical FACTS could not have happened.

What is your next dodge?

Harry K

[harry k]

On May 29, 11:54 am, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 28, 10:18 pm, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:

> > > > Do you have any examples of _ANY_ explanation that religion came up
> > > > with wot explain a natural fact?
>
> > > Explaining nature is one of the purposes of all religions, including
> > > Atheism, your question evokes thousands of answers.  The West Coast
> > > Haidas had hundreds of explanations for natural facts, all now classed
> > > as "Raven" stories.
>

> > > TCross
>
> > I asked for an example of religion explaining a natural FACT and you
> > feed me religious nonsense.
>
> As I told you, explanations are a dime a dozen.  Providing more
> explanations is not a valid scientific purpose.
>
> TCross

Why not just admit you can't find and example. Dodge and Weave is all
we ever get from you cfretinists.

Harry K

[harry k]

On May 29, 5:03 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 29, 4:31 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> > <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
> > >On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> > >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
> > >> >On May 29, 1:10 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> > >> >> On Wed, 29 May 2013 11:57:43 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> > >> >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
> > >> >> >On May 28, 10:24 pm, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:

> > >> >> >> On May 28, 12:16 pm, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> >> >> > On May 28, 11:56 am, Ralph <mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

> > >> >> >> > > On 5/27/2013 3:25 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>
> > >> >> >> > > > On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> > >> >> >> > > >> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> > >> >> >> > > >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
> > >> >> >> > > >>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> > > >>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope <jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> >> > > >>>>> By Joe McKeever
> > >> >> >> > > >>>> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
> > >> >> >> > > >>>> atheism"
> > >> >> >> > > >>> In daily operation, you are quite wrong. The Communists firmly
> > >> >> >> > > >>> believed in what they were doing. The people on your board are
> > >> >> >> > > >>> confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
> > >> >> >> > > >>> science brings only truth to the world.
> > >> >> >> > > >> But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."
> > >> >> >> > > > On the contrary -- it is a package. As much as you claim Christianity
> > >> >> >> > > > is the belief in heaven and hell, so Atheism is the unwavering belief
> > >> >> >> > > > that the process of government and industry-financed science (and only
> > >> >> >> > > > that process) will find the truth of black holes, quarks, and belly-
> > >> >> >> > > > buttons.
>
> > >> >> >> > > > TCross
>

> > >> >> >> > > Well Cross, how does the record stand today for both 'beliefs'?
>
> > >> >> >> > Christianity produced a civilization. Atheism almost destroyed it
> > >> >> >> > through the Communist countries.
>
> > >> >> >> > TCross
>

> > >> >> >> And don't for get what a good christian did in WWII. So you don't
> > >> >> >> have to guess - Hitler.
>

> > >> >> >I raise you to good Atheists: Stalin and Pol Pot.
>
> > >> >> You repeat many falsehoods.

>
> > >> >Pol Pot killed somewhere between 6 and 15 million.  Stalin killed at
> > >> >least 30 million Ukrainians.  These figures are not normally thought
> > >> >to be falsehoods.
>

> > >> I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
> > >> fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.
>
> > >Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
> > >had no problem with that.
>

> > Had you said "the same" I would not have had much problem, but Hitler
> > was quite cheerful in his use of God and Christianity throughout his
> > career, including his justification for the Holocaust. Atheism was not a
> > core part of the murders orchestrated by Stalin or Pol Pot.
>

> Oh, but Atheism WAS absolutely a core part of all those Communist
> murders.  "Throughout his career" -- yup, yup, that fits for the "the
> same" that you would have accepted.
>
> But Karl Marx said Atheism was essential to Communism, indispensable
> -- Hitler never said Christianity was indispensable to Fascism.  And
> all Stalin's and Pol Pot's killings were in the service of the
> Communist State, of which Atheism was an "essential" and
> "indispensable" part.
>
> TCross

Careful there, you will give yourself a hernia straining at a gnat
that hard.

Neither Pol Pot nor Stalin ever claimed any of their mass murders was
because of atheism, Hitler claimed much of his was justified by
Christianity.

Harry K

[harry k]

On May 30, 10:54 am, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 30, 4:31 am, bil...@microsoft.com wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 29 May 2013 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
> > <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >On May 29, 4:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
> > >> On Wed, 29 May 2013 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
> > >> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
> > >> I am not calling the estimates of deaths falsehoods. I am calling your
> > >> fraudulent attempt to blame atheism for it a falsehood.
>
> > >Makes much more sense than blaming Christianity for Hitler, and you
> > >had no problem with that.
>
> > >TCross
>
> > noone is blaming christianity for hitler.
>
> Harry K is no one?
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> On May 28, 10:24 pm, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> And don't for get what a good christian did in WWII.  So you don't
> have to guess - Hitler.
>
> Harry K
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>

Try reading that again and then point out where I said anything about
blaming Christanity.
Of coure if it weren't for distorting posts and outright lies, you
wouldn't have anything in hyour arsenal.

<snip> more TC crap.

Harry K

[Terry Cross]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_ravens

TCross

[Terry Cross]

It's only a copy of the Jewish Torah. You should name things by what
they are.

> How did you get it to be
> to the Torah?

It was always the Torah.

> Here is another example.
>
> Science has flat proven that the Noahic Flood never happened
> andbecause of physical FACTS could not have happened.
>
> What is your next dodge?

I don't give a fig for Noah's Flood. That is in the Jewish Torah,
which we know is full of psychosis, racism, sexism, massacres, and
just plain evil. Following the Torah is what has made Judaism so
twisted.

And "science" does no proving. "Science" does not gather evidence or
write papers. Your persistent anthropomorphism is pitifully primitive
and animistic.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaman
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Shamans perform a variety of functions depending upon their respective
cultures;[19] healing,[20][21] leading a sacrifice,[22] preserving the
tradition by storytelling and songs,[23] fortune-telling,[24] and
acting as a psychopomp (literal meaning, "guide of souls").[25] A
single shaman may fulfill several of these functions.[19]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TCross

[bil...@m.nu]

look we have already done this dance. you say the torah is full of
alkl that stguff but have you ever read it? I have not. but I have
read the bible and I can tell you with the utmost assuredness that it
is full of lies , deciet, and murder and that is all by yout own god

>
>And "science" does no proving. "Science" does not gather evidence or
>write papers. Your persistent anthropomorphism is pitifully primitive
>and animistic.
>
>TCross

you are all fucked up in the head

[bil...@m.nu]

OMFG are you seriously thinking this? has some priest or preacher told
you this?oh I truly pity you

[Terry Cross]

On May 30, 5:56 pm, bil...@m.nu wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2013 15:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 30, 2:15 pm, bil...@m.nu wrote:
> >> On Tue, 28 May 2013 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>
> >Your religion has a deadly disease. Why should we ignore it?
>
> sorry I dont have a religon I am not an idiot like you with one
> religon thats says you can only have one god but preaches of at least
> 2

Once again you confuse truth with your presumptions. It's cute in a
child, but merely pitiful in an adult.

> >I bring it up only when you boast that you could do a good job ruling
> >the world. Your history proves you could not.
>
> seems to me you brought it up just to kake yourself feel better. ok 1.
> I HAVE NEVER said I could do a good job ruling weather it is me or
> atheists in general I never said that although it does bring up a good
> point that atheists would be the perfect president. andI have already
> proven to you I guess in another thread that the face that stalin was
> an atheist doesnt mean a damn thing.

You did not prove it -- you asserted it. You might not know, but
there is a difference.

> but if you want to go there I can
> always bring up hitler or any number of american christian presidents
> that fought pointless wars.

Hitler was not really Christian, as has been REALLY proved by others
who quoted from Table Talk. But as to the vicious Christians, there
are plenty and you can discuss them all you wish. They really are not
a patch on the thousands of Atheist murderers throughout the world.
They just couldn't keep up.

> you must think before you type
>
> >> Well everyone including you know that it is a very weak argument. just
> >> because some communists are atheists doesnt mean they almost destroyed
> >> civilization.
>
> >One of the doctrines of Atheism requires you to forget history. The
> >rest of us remember.
>
> ok first that is not even a relevant rebuttle and second WTF are you
> talking about? are your hands back in your ass digging for gold?

You have shown you know nothing of Communist history. Stalin was not
the only Communist murderer -- all the "great" ones were except
Trotsky after the Revolution.

> >> I mean that statement just doesnt even make sense. tell
> >> me what role does antheism play in the communist party.
>
> >Aggressive Atheism is an essential plank in the Communist Party. In
> >service of that doctrine, most of the Communist parties murdered the
> >members of other religions when Communism was rising to power.
>
> YOU IDIOT
> I have never read anytrhing about them killing people because of thier
> religon.

Judging by your spelling, you read very little of anything. Try
reading this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
According to Rudolph Joseph Rummel, the killings done by communist
regimes can be explained with the marriage between absolute power and
an absolutist ideology – Marxism.[25]

"Of all religions, secular and otherwise," Rummel positions Marxism as
"by far the bloodiest – bloodier than the Catholic Inquisition, the
various Catholic crusades, and the Thirty Years War between Catholics
and Protestants. In practice, Marxism has meant bloody terrorism,
deadly purges, lethal prison camps and murderous forced labor, fatal
deportations, man-made famines, extrajudicial executions and
fraudulent show trials, outright mass murder and genocide."[26] He
writes that in practice the Marxists saw the construction of their
utopia as "a war on poverty, exploitation, imperialism and inequality
– and, as in a real war, noncombatants would unfortunately get caught
in the battle. There would be necessary enemy casualties: the clergy,
bourgeoisie, capitalists, 'wreckers', intellectuals,
counterrevolutionaries, rightists, tyrants, the rich and landlords. As
in a war, millions might die, but these deaths would be justified by
the end, as in the defeat of Hitler in World War II. To the ruling
Marxists, the goal of a communist utopia was enough to justify all the
deaths."[26]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> and you still seem to forget hitler whose murders were done
> iin the name of your god

Who do you think is my god?

> >> Tell me what
> >> role atheism played in any wars started by the communists
> >> stalin killed the ukraines not because of religon I told you that
> >> already
>
> >Whether you believe it or not, the clergy protested the murders, and
> >the clergy were murdered in turn.
>
> show me... until then your words just doesnt mean much. oh and BTW the
> clergy would protest any murder but again the murders were not because
> of religon in the first place I have already proven that fact

You haven't shown me anything to bolster your claims, above.

> >> Stalin feared that Ukrainian nationalism and an independent Ukraine
> >> would wreck the Soviet Russian Empire.http://ukrhistory.tripod.com/page-19.html
> >> dude you are an idiot
>
> >You said "uprising" Now you are changing the story. Can face that
> >without getting all nasty and hormone squirty?
>

> LOL that was funny I will call you the nit bitcher now. either you are
> a female or a fag which is it?

So you can't deal with your own contradictions.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

On May 31, 6:18 am, bil...@m.nu wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2013 22:24:41 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>

> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 30, 9:58 pm, harry k <turn...@q.com> wrote:
> >> On May 29, 11:53 am, Terry Cross <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't give a fig for Noah's Flood.  That is in the Jewish Torah,
> >which we know is full of psychosis, racism, sexism, massacres, and
> >just plain evil.  Following the Torah is what has made Judaism so
> >twisted.
>
> look we have already done this dance. you say the torah is full of
> alkl that stguff but have you ever read it?

Of course. Regardless of your religious stand, if you don't read the
Torah, you won't understand European culture.

> I have not. but I have
> read the bible and I can tell you with the utmost assuredness that it

Right there you prove you don't know whereof you speak.

TCorss
\

[bil...@m.nu]

Terry cross is no female. I think fag fits the bill a bit better
and when you reply be sure to include the entire quote.

[bil...@m.nu]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 09:05:31 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
<tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On May 30, 5:56 pm, bil...@m.nu wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 May 2013 15:52:19 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>
>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 30, 2:15 pm, bil...@m.nu wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 28 May 2013 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>
>> >Your religion has a deadly disease. Why should we ignore it?
>>
>> sorry I dont have a religon I am not an idiot like you with one
>> religon thats says you can only have one god but preaches of at least
>> 2
>
>
>Once again you confuse truth with your presumptions. It's cute in a
>child, but merely pitiful in an adult.
>

no no christianity says pray to god AND pray to jesus. so take it as
you want.

>
>> >I bring it up only when you boast that you could do a good job ruling
>> >the world. Your history proves you could not.
>>
>> seems to me you brought it up just to kake yourself feel better. ok 1.
>> I HAVE NEVER said I could do a good job ruling weather it is me or
>> atheists in general I never said that although it does bring up a good
>> point that atheists would be the perfect president. andI have already
>> proven to you I guess in another thread that the face that stalin was
>> an atheist doesnt mean a damn thing.
>
>
>You did not prove it -- you asserted it. You might not know, but
>there is a difference.
>
>
>> but if you want to go there I can
>> always bring up hitler or any number of american christian presidents
>> that fought pointless wars.
>
>
>Hitler was not really Christian, as has been REALLY proved by others
>who quoted from Table Talk. But as to the vicious Christians, there
>are plenty and you can discuss them all you wish. They really are not
>a patch on the thousands of Atheist murderers throughout the world.
>They just couldn't keep up.
>

yes yes he REALLY was a christian
yup I am sure that terry cross is NOT a female
females are just not that stupid. However fags are

>
>> you must think before you type
>>
>> >> Well everyone including you know that it is a very weak argument. just
>> >> because some communists are atheists doesnt mean they almost destroyed
>> >> civilization.
>>
>> >One of the doctrines of Atheism requires you to forget history. The
>> >rest of us remember.
>>
>> ok first that is not even a relevant rebuttle and second WTF are you
>> talking about? are your hands back in your ass digging for gold?
>
>
>You have shown you know nothing of Communist history. Stalin was not
>the only Communist murderer -- all the "great" ones were except
>Trotsky after the Revolution.

>
>
>> >> I mean that statement just doesnt even make sense. tell
>> >> me what role does antheism play in the communist party.
>>
>> >Aggressive Atheism is an essential plank in the Communist Party. In
>> >service of that doctrine, most of the Communist parties murdered the
>> >members of other religions when Communism was rising to power.
>>
>> YOU IDIOT
>> I have never read anytrhing about them killing people because of thier
>> religon.
>
>
>Judging by your spelling, you read very little of anything. Try
>reading this:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes

Read it And I would totally agree that communism is a horrible
government; however, it has nothing to do with atheistism which I have
said multiple multiple times already but you just dont have anything
else tto argue but that so this post will end this needless bickering
abou t something we all know.

[Ralph]

On 5/28/2013 3:16 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
> On May 28, 11:56 am, Ralph<mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> On 5/27/2013 3:25 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch<lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

>>>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>>>>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k<turn...@q.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope<jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> By Joe McKeever
>>>>>> It may come as news to you but even atheists don't "believe in
>>>>>> atheism"
>>>>> In daily operation, you are quite wrong. The Communists firmly

>>>>> believed in what they were doing. The people on your board are
>>>>> confident to the point of arrogance that the process of industrial
>>>>> science brings only truth to the world.
>>>> But, as you know, neither of those things are "believing in atheism."
>>> On the contrary -- it is a package. As much as you claim Christianity
>>> is the belief in heaven and hell, so Atheism is the unwavering belief
>>> that the process of government and industry-financed science (and only
>>> that process) will find the truth of black holes, quarks, and belly-
>>> buttons.
>>> TCross

>> Well Cross, how does the record stand today for both 'beliefs'?
> Christianity produced a civilization. Atheism almost destroyed it
> through the Communist countries.
>
> TCross

Christianity has produced many civilizations, mostly by force, and this
is a huge part of the problems we have today.
Atheism didn't destroy anything, it doesn't have the power. Bad people
did most of this, including that great Christian, Adolph Hitler.
Any other falsehoods you need to insert at this point, bitch???

[Terry Cross]

That statement alone shows that you do not understand civilization. Not
even slightly.

> and this
> is a huge part of the problems we have today.

I agree that you and yours do not understanding civilization is a HUGE
PROBLEM.

> Atheism didn't destroy anything, it doesn't have the power.

Ideas have consequences. Power is not in the backs of the slaves the
who build the pyramids, nor in the arms the overseers who wield the
whips, but in the mind of the Pharaoh who speaks the order that it shall
be done. And his mind is swayed by the priest who whispered that it
should be.

> Bad people
> did most of this, including that great Christian, Adolph Hitler.

I had no idea that Hitler was into genetically modifying food. Are you
sure you have your facts right?

> Any other falsehoods you need to insert at this point, bitch???

Yours are numerous enough to serve for both of us.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

Civilization existed before Christianity and Europe had its longest
period of stasis, even reverse, while Christianity held sway over
Europe. Nations began to prosper and learn again after the hold of the
Church over nations was broken.

>> and this
>> is a huge part of the problems we have today.
>
>I agree that you and yours do not understanding civilization is a HUGE
>PROBLEM.

Christianity did not give us civilization.

>> Atheism didn't destroy anything, it doesn't have the power.
>
>Ideas have consequences. Power is not in the backs of the slaves the
>who build the pyramids, nor in the arms the overseers who wield the
>whips, but in the mind of the Pharaoh who speaks the order that it shall
>be done. And his mind is swayed by the priest who whispered that it
>should be.

Christianity caused Europe to suffer the same restrictions on thought
and progress.

>> Bad people
>> did most of this, including that great Christian, Adolph Hitler.
>
>I had no idea that Hitler was into genetically modifying food. Are you
>sure you have your facts right?

That is a bizarre response.

>> Any other falsehoods you need to insert at this point, bitch???
>
>Yours are numerous enough to serve for both of us.

Clearly you will never allow your opinions to be corrected by mere
facts.

[Terry Cross]

Since you have records only of the Christian period, your statement is
without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems. One thing that
disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.

> Nations began to prosper and learn again after the hold of the
> Church over nations was broken.

Are you equating Christianity with "the church"? How dishonest! Europe
continued to be Christian throughout the Reformation.

We might not that the Eastern European nations suffered a terrible
setback in economy and repression once Atheism took over, both before WW
II and afterwards.

>>> and this
>>> is a huge part of the problems we have today.
>>
>> I agree that you and yours do not understanding civilization is a HUGE
>> PROBLEM.
>
> Christianity did not give us civilization.

The principles expressed in the teachings of Jesus WARE what gave us
civilization. Sometimes those principles were embodied in Christianity,
sometimes not. Sometimes "the church" expressed those principles,
sometimes not.

We can show conclusively, though, that wherever Atheism held sway,
civilization was almost destroyed.

>>> Atheism didn't destroy anything, it doesn't have the power.
>>
>> Ideas have consequences. Power is not in the backs of the slaves the
>> who build the pyramids, nor in the arms the overseers who wield the
>> whips, but in the mind of the Pharaoh who speaks the order that it shall
>> be done. And his mind is swayed by the priest who whispered that it
>> should be.
>
> Christianity caused Europe to suffer the same restrictions on thought
> and progress.

"The same" as what? Are you admitting to the terrible blight of Atheism?

>>> Bad people
>>> did most of this, including that great Christian, Adolph Hitler.
>>
>> I had no idea that Hitler was into genetically modifying food. Are you
>> sure you have your facts right?
>
> That is a bizarre response.
>
>>> Any other falsehoods you need to insert at this point, bitch???
>>
>> Yours are numerous enough to serve for both of us.
>
> Clearly you will never allow your opinions to be corrected by mere
> facts.

Have you resented any?

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:07:19 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>

Your ignorance is not the ignorance of historians.

>your statement is without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems.

My statement was correct. I had no idea that you were so profoundly
ignorant about history.

>One thing that disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.

Will you ever learn to treat atheism as a common noun?

>> Nations began to prosper and learn again after the hold of the
>> Church over nations was broken.
>
>Are you equating Christianity with "the church"? How dishonest! Europe
>continued to be Christian throughout the Reformation.

The Thirty Years' War, one of the bloodiest wars of all time was fought
over religion and over the right of governments to be free of control by
priests. I don't care if people are religious. I care if a religion is
able to control a country. Could you provide one example of a country
controlled by a religion that did well?

>We might not that the Eastern European nations suffered a terrible
>setback in economy and repression once Atheism took over, both before WW
>II and afterwards.

I see that you are still trying to sell that Communism = atheism lie.

>>>> and this
>>>> is a huge part of the problems we have today.
>>>
>>> I agree that you and yours do not understanding civilization is a HUGE
>>> PROBLEM.
>>
>> Christianity did not give us civilization.
>
>The principles expressed in the teachings of Jesus WARE what gave us
>civilization.

Civilization existed before Jesus taught anything. The teachings
attributed to Jesus in the gospels existed in a number of forms in
various places before Jesus was said to have taught.

>Sometimes those principles were embodied in Christianity,
>sometimes not. Sometimes "the church" expressed those principles,
>sometimes not.

But Jesus was not original.

>We can show conclusively, though, that wherever Atheism held sway,
>civilization was almost destroyed.

Then show us that you can. So far all you have done is made unsupported
claims.

>>>> Atheism didn't destroy anything, it doesn't have the power.
>>>
>>> Ideas have consequences. Power is not in the backs of the slaves the
>>> who build the pyramids, nor in the arms the overseers who wield the
>>> whips, but in the mind of the Pharaoh who speaks the order that it shall
>>> be done. And his mind is swayed by the priest who whispered that it
>>> should be.
>>
>> Christianity caused Europe to suffer the same restrictions on thought
>> and progress.
>
>"The same" as what? Are you admitting to the terrible blight of Atheism?

Egypt was not an atheist nation during the height of its ancient power.
Your question makes no sense.

>>>> Bad people
>>>> did most of this, including that great Christian, Adolph Hitler.
>>>
>>> I had no idea that Hitler was into genetically modifying food. Are you
>>> sure you have your facts right?
>>
>> That is a bizarre response.
>>
>>>> Any other falsehoods you need to insert at this point, bitch???
>>>
>>> Yours are numerous enough to serve for both of us.
>>
>> Clearly you will never allow your opinions to be corrected by mere
>> facts.
>
>Have you resented any?

How can one resent facts? Why would one resent facts? Every opinion you
ever arrive at should be consistent with all of the facts you know and
you should always adjust your opinion if new facts show that your
opinion was not accurate.

[bil...@m.nu]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>

wrote:

>Ralph wrote:
>> On 5/28/2013 3:16 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>> On May 28, 11:56 am, Ralph<mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 5/27/2013 3:25 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch<lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>>>>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>>>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k<turn...@q.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope<jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> By Joe McKeever

>> Atheism didn't destroy anything, it doesn't have the power.
>
>
>Ideas have consequences. Power is not in the backs of the slaves the
>who build the pyramids, nor in the arms the overseers who wield the
>whips, but in the mind of the Pharaoh who speaks the order that it shall
>be done. And his mind is swayed by the priest who whispered that it
>should be.

that makes no sense what so ever and does not even in the slightest
relate to the commet

>
>
>> Bad people
>> did most of this, including that great Christian, Adolph Hitler.
>
>
>I had no idea that Hitler was into genetically modifying food. Are you
>sure you have your facts right?

see my previous statement

>
>
>> Any other falsehoods you need to insert at this point, bitch???
>
>
>Yours are numerous enough to serve for both of us.
>
>TCross

refer to my first statement

[bil...@m.nu]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:07:19 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Free Lunch wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>>> even slightly.
>>
>> Civilization existed before Christianity and Europe had its longest
>> period of stasis, even reverse, while Christianity held sway over
>> Europe.
>
>
>Since you have records only of the Christian period, your statement is
>without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems. One thing that
>disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.

well there was the all the various asians. there were the native
americans including the incas and the mayans there was that whole
jewish thing that existed before christianity. and I am sorry to tell
you this but there is not a christian on this earth that can be
trusted alive or dead. your jesus christ cant be trusted. yout god can
not be trusted. according to your bible both were hypocrits and liars

>
>
>> Nations began to prosper and learn again after the hold of the
>> Church over nations was broken.
>
>
>Are you equating Christianity with "the church"? How dishonest! Europe
>continued to be Christian throughout the Reformation.

all of christianity is based on the church.

>
>We might not that the Eastern European nations suffered a terrible
>setback in economy and repression once Atheism took over, both before WW
>II and afterwards.

dumbass. tell that to china

>> Christianity did not give us civilization.
>
>
>The principles expressed in the teachings of Jesus WARE what gave us
>civilization. Sometimes those principles were embodied in Christianity,
>sometimes not. Sometimes "the church" expressed those principles,
>sometimes not.
>

idiot

>We can show conclusively, though, that wherever Atheism held sway,
>civilization was almost destroyed.
>

idiot

>
>> Christianity caused Europe to suffer the same restrictions on thought
>> and progress.
>
>
>"The same" as what? Are you admitting to the terrible blight of Atheism?

idiot. you can not see the forest for the trees

[Terry Cross]

bil...@m.nu wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ralph wrote:
>>> On 5/28/2013 3:16 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>>> On May 28, 11:56 am, Ralph<mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 5/27/2013 3:25 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch<lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>>>>>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>>>>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k<turn...@q.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope<jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> By Joe McKeever
>
>>> Atheism didn't destroy anything, it doesn't have the power.
>>
>>
>> Ideas have consequences. Power is not in the backs of the slaves the
>> who build the pyramids, nor in the arms the overseers who wield the
>> whips, but in the mind of the Pharaoh who speaks the order that it shall
>> be done. And his mind is swayed by the priest who whispered that it
>> should be.
>
> that makes no sense what so ever and does not even in the slightest
> relate to the commet

Your contract says you should write English, not babble. Plase check
clause 23, and consult with your supervisor if you need further
clarification.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

bil...@m.nu wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:07:19 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>> even slightly.
>>>
>>> Civilization existed before Christianity and Europe had its longest
>>> period of stasis, even reverse, while Christianity held sway over
>>> Europe.
>>
>>
>> Since you have records only of the Christian period, your statement is
>> without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems. One thing that
>> disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.
> well there was the all the various asians.

The context of the statement and rebuttal is Europe, not Asia.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:31:53 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>

wrote in alt.talk.creationism:

>bil...@m.nu wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:07:19 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>> even slightly.
>>>>
>>>> Civilization existed before Christianity and Europe had its longest
>>>> period of stasis, even reverse, while Christianity held sway over
>>>> Europe.
>>>
>>>
>>> Since you have records only of the Christian period, your statement is
>>> without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems. One thing that
>>> disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.
>> well there was the all the various asians.
>
>
>The context of the statement and rebuttal is Europe, not Asia.

Civilization is not limite to Europe, though Christianity came well
after European civilization.

[Terry Cross]

There is very little written record of continental Europe prior to the
invasion of Julius Caesar. To support your statement, you would need
thousands of years of such records. You haven't a shred older than one
thousand years prior to the time of Jesus.

>> your statement is without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems.
>
> My statement was correct. I had no idea that you were so profoundly
> ignorant about history.

Haul out your proof.

>> One thing that disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.
>
> Will you ever learn to treat atheism as a common noun?

I give your august institution the respect it deserves, despite its
compulsive humility. Grammar trumps whim.

>>> Nations began to prosper and learn again after the hold of the
>>> Church over nations was broken.
>>
>> Are you equating Christianity with "the church"? How dishonest! Europe
>> continued to be Christian throughout the Reformation.
>
> The Thirty Years' War, one of the bloodiest wars of all time was fought
> over religion and over the right of governments to be free of control by
> priests.

You are one of those truth-challenged people, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War
++++++++++++++++++
The origins of the conflict and goals of the participants were complex
and no single cause can accurately be described as the main reason for
the fighting. Initially, it was fought largely as a religious war
between Protestants and Catholics in the Holy Roman Empire, although
disputes over internal politics and the balance of power within the
Empire played a significant part. Gradually, it developed into a more
general conflict involving most of the great powers of the time.[11] In
this general phase the war became less specifically religious and more a
continuation of the Bourbon�Habsburg rivalry for European political
pre-eminence, leading in turn to further warfare between France and the
Habsburg powers.[citing Encyclopedia Brittanica]
++++++++++++++++++

That page claims the total casualties was about 8 million.

In contrast, the total casualties for WW I for the Allied Powers was
22,477,500. For the Central Powers it was 16,403,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_war

WW II dwarfs both of those. The Allies suffered 61,000,000 casualties
and the Axis 12,000,000.

> I don't care if people are religious. I care if a religion is
> able to control a country.

You should. When Atheism came to power, it made the Thirty Years' War
look like an argument in a sandbox.

> Could you provide one example of a country
> controlled by a religion that did well?

Can you provide an example of a country controlled by Atheism that
banned other religions and did well?

>> We might not that the Eastern European nations suffered a terrible
>> setback in economy and repression once Atheism took over, both before WW
>> II and afterwards.
>
> I see that you are still trying to sell that Communism = atheism lie.

Your prophet Karl Marx spoke and millions died.

>>>>> and this
>>>>> is a huge part of the problems we have today.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that you and yours do not understanding civilization is a HUGE
>>>> PROBLEM.
>>>
>>> Christianity did not give us civilization.
>>
>> The principles expressed in the teachings of Jesus WARE what gave us
>> civilization.
>
> Civilization existed before Jesus taught anything. The teachings
> attributed to Jesus in the gospels existed in a number of forms in
> various places before Jesus was said to have taught.

Read it again.

>> Sometimes those principles were embodied in Christianity,
>> sometimes not. Sometimes "the church" expressed those principles,
>> sometimes not.
>
> But Jesus was not original.

Oh, of course -- the Jews -- between days when they were stoning each
other in the streets -- they had it all nailed down before Jesus came to
town. Sure.

Those two terms may be in contradiction. In the first place, very few
people have the time or the intellect to integrate everything they know.
In the second place, too much of what we know is only "perhaps" true --
and cannot be used as a foundation for integration with other facts. In
the third place, you cannot always determine which of two contradictory
assertions is true.

Is DDT harmful to humans as many claim, or is it harmless as someone
claimed endlessly on these groups a year or two ago. Integrate that.
What about the Alar they used on apples?

Is the warrantless search of your email legal? Does the order signed by
a secret judge in a secret court make it legal under US law?

Did WTC 7 fall at the speed of a free-falling body? If so, is that
consistent with the collapse of a building caused by heat-fatigue of the
steel frame?

Could you send slaves into a cyanide gas chamber without thoroughly
airing it? Could you air a cyanide chamber without a huge stack to
preserve the air quality of he rest of the camp?

Was Kimble a traitor?

Of course, you could just slavishly accept whatever you were fed by the
mass media. If Opra says it's true, it's true and it never shall be
questioned. But that wouldn't be consistent with the rules you have
just laid down.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 18:00:30 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>

Where do you think that Greece and Rome are?

>To support your statement, you would need
>thousands of years of such records. You haven't a shred older than one
>thousand years prior to the time of Jesus.

Which is more than a thousand years before Christianity arose or
mattered.

>>> your statement is without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems.
>>
>> My statement was correct. I had no idea that you were so profoundly
>> ignorant about history.
>
>Haul out your proof.

Your statements are the evidence that you don't know what you are
talking about. Civilization arose before Christianity.

>>> One thing that disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.
>>
>> Will you ever learn to treat atheism as a common noun?
>
>I give your august institution the respect it deserves, despite its
>compulsive humility. Grammar trumps whim.

Whatever.

>>>> Nations began to prosper and learn again after the hold of the
>>>> Church over nations was broken.
>>>
>>> Are you equating Christianity with "the church"? How dishonest! Europe
>>> continued to be Christian throughout the Reformation.
>>
>> The Thirty Years' War, one of the bloodiest wars of all time was fought
>> over religion and over the right of governments to be free of control by
>> priests.
>
>You are one of those truth-challenged people, right?
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War
>++++++++++++++++++
>The origins of the conflict and goals of the participants were complex
>and no single cause can accurately be described as the main reason for
>the fighting. Initially, it was fought largely as a religious war
>between Protestants and Catholics in the Holy Roman Empire, although
>disputes over internal politics and the balance of power within the
>Empire played a significant part. Gradually, it developed into a more
>general conflict involving most of the great powers of the time.[11] In
>this general phase the war became less specifically religious and more a

>continuation of the Bourbon�Habsburg rivalry for European political

>pre-eminence, leading in turn to further warfare between France and the
>Habsburg powers.[citing Encyclopedia Brittanica]
>++++++++++++++++++
>
>That page claims the total casualties was about 8 million.
>
>In contrast, the total casualties for WW I for the Allied Powers was
>22,477,500. For the Central Powers it was 16,403,000.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_war
>
>WW II dwarfs both of those. The Allies suffered 61,000,000 casualties
>and the Axis 12,000,000.

Apparently no one told you that there were larger populations involved
in the later wars. Whatever.

>> I don't care if people are religious. I care if a religion is
>> able to control a country.
>
>You should. When Atheism came to power, it made the Thirty Years' War
>look like an argument in a sandbox.

But you know that atheism never came to power.

>> Could you provide one example of a country
>> controlled by a religion that did well?
>
>Can you provide an example of a country controlled by Atheism that
>banned other religions and did well?

No countries were controlled by atheism.

>>> We might not that the Eastern European nations suffered a terrible
>>> setback in economy and repression once Atheism took over, both before WW
>>> II and afterwards.
>>
>> I see that you are still trying to sell that Communism = atheism lie.
>
>Your prophet Karl Marx spoke and millions died.

You also are ignorant about what Marx wrote.

>>>>>> and this
>>>>>> is a huge part of the problems we have today.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that you and yours do not understanding civilization is a HUGE
>>>>> PROBLEM.
>>>>
>>>> Christianity did not give us civilization.
>>>
>>> The principles expressed in the teachings of Jesus WARE what gave us
>>> civilization.
>>
>> Civilization existed before Jesus taught anything. The teachings
>> attributed to Jesus in the gospels existed in a number of forms in
>> various places before Jesus was said to have taught.
>
>Read it again.

Christianity came along well after civilization.

>>> Sometimes those principles were embodied in Christianity,
>>> sometimes not. Sometimes "the church" expressed those principles,
>>> sometimes not.
>>
>> But Jesus was not original.
>
>Oh, of course -- the Jews -- between days when they were stoning each
>other in the streets -- they had it all nailed down before Jesus came to
>town. Sure.

Once again, you show us that you know nothing about any of the ancient
civilizations.

...

>>>>>> Any other falsehoods you need to insert at this point, bitch???
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours are numerous enough to serve for both of us.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly you will never allow your opinions to be corrected by mere
>>>> facts.
>>>
>>> Have you resented any?
>>
>> How can one resent facts? Why would one resent facts? Every opinion you
>> ever arrive at should be consistent with all of the facts you know and
>> you should always adjust your opinion if new facts show that your
>> opinion was not accurate.
>
>Those two terms may be in contradiction. In the first place, very few
>people have the time or the intellect to integrate everything they know.

Possibly true, but unsubstantiated.

> In the second place, too much of what we know is only "perhaps" true --
>and cannot be used as a foundation for integration with other facts. In
>the third place, you cannot always determine which of two contradictory
>assertions is true.

Name facts that are contradictory.

>Is DDT harmful to humans as many claim, or is it harmless as someone
>claimed endlessly on these groups a year or two ago. Integrate that.

There are actual facts about DDT

>What about the Alar they used on apples?

and about Alar.

>Is the warrantless search of your email legal? Does the order signed by
>a secret judge in a secret court make it legal under US law?

That is not about science.

>Did WTC 7 fall at the speed of a free-falling body? If so, is that
>consistent with the collapse of a building caused by heat-fatigue of the
>steel frame?

Anyone can see from the video what happened.

>Could you send slaves into a cyanide gas chamber without thoroughly
>airing it? Could you air a cyanide chamber without a huge stack to
>preserve the air quality of he rest of the camp?
>
>Was Kimble a traitor?
>
>Of course, you could just slavishly accept whatever you were fed by the
>mass media. If Opra says it's true, it's true and it never shall be
>questioned. But that wouldn't be consistent with the rules you have
>just laid down.

You clearly will never let mere facts get you to change your opinion.
--

English has no word for "the constant, repetitive reiteration of strong
prior [belief]s". Yet it is a well-known phenomenon in the world of
punditry, debate, and public affairs. On Twitter, we call it "derp".

<http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/what-is-derp-answer-is-technical.html>

[bil...@m.nu]

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 18:00:30 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Free Lunch wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:07:19 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>
>>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>
>>>>> Ralph wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/28/2013 3:16 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>>>>>> On May 28, 11:56 am, Ralph<mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 5/27/2013 3:25 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch<lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>>>>>>>>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>>>>>>>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k<turn...@q.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope<jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> By Joe McKeever

>

>You should. When Atheism came to power, it made the Thirty Years' War
>look like an argument in a sandbox.

the deaths resulting from comunism had nothing to do with religon or
the lack there of

>
>
>> Could you provide one example of a country
>> controlled by a religion that did well?
>
>
>Can you provide an example of a country controlled by Atheism that
>banned other religions and did well?

China

>>
>> I see that you are still trying to sell that Communism = atheism lie.
>
>
>Your prophet Karl Marx spoke and millions died.

again nothing to do with religon or god

>>> Sometimes those principles were embodied in Christianity,
>>> sometimes not. Sometimes "the church" expressed those principles,
>>> sometimes not.
>>
>> But Jesus was not original.
>
>
>Oh, of course -- the Jews -- between days when they were stoning each
>other in the streets -- they had it all nailed down before Jesus came to
>town. Sure.

your jesus christ was a jew. not that it existed but for the sake of
argument. jesus was born a jew and stayed a jew

>> How can one resent facts? Why would one resent facts? Every opinion you
>> ever arrive at should be consistent with all of the facts you know and
>> you should always adjust your opinion if new facts show that your
>> opinion was not accurate.
>
>Those two terms may be in contradiction. In the first place, very few
>people have the time or the intellect to integrate everything they know.
> In the second place, too much of what we know is only "perhaps" true --
>and cannot be used as a foundation for integration with other facts. In
>the third place, you cannot always determine which of two contradictory
>assertions is true.

idiot

>
>Is DDT harmful to humans as many claim, or is it harmless as someone
>claimed endlessly on these groups a year or two ago. Integrate that.
>What about the Alar they used on apples?

idiot

>
>Is the warrantless search of your email legal? Does the order signed by
>a secret judge in a secret court make it legal under US law?

idiot

>
>Did WTC 7 fall at the speed of a free-falling body? If so, is that
>consistent with the collapse of a building caused by heat-fatigue of the
>steel frame?

idiot

>
>Could you send slaves into a cyanide gas chamber without thoroughly
>airing it? Could you air a cyanide chamber without a huge stack to
>preserve the air quality of he rest of the camp?

ask hitler he was after all a christian

>
>Was Kimble a traitor?
>
>Of course, you could just slavishly accept whatever you were fed by the
>mass media. If Opra says it's true, it's true and it never shall be
>questioned. But that wouldn't be consistent with the rules you have
>just laid down.

idiot
>
>TCross is a complete idiot

[Sam Taylor]

Dearest Jope,
To sum it up, I believe in G-D because,
I am an optimist, not that I go to their
Meetings and prance around in my
underwear, like official optimist do.
I am in the Amatuer Optimist Class,
and find being Optimistic makes the
Days go better.
All that I didn't have to be Blindfolded,
nor swear an oath.
love
Sam

[bil...@m.nu]

On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 13:08:00 -0700, "Sam Taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com>
wrote:

>Dearest Jope,
>To sum it up, I believe in G-D because,
>I am an optimist, not that I go to their

No you donty believe in god. you can not even say god so that tells me
that you are afraid of the idea of god. and anyone whom is afraid only
believes in an idea not the real thing. Why would you fear something
that is supossed to love you and have created you. you are actually
an agnostic. you know that the idea of a god cant not be proven so you
sit on the fence. You say you believe but it is because of your fear
that you say this. you worry about well what if there is a god, do you
think that if there actually was an omniptotent god that it would not
know what you actually are thinking. I mean cmon dude just stop lying
to yourself and then maybe youu will; not have to live you life afraid
anymore.

[Terry Cross]

bil...@m.nu wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 18:00:30 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:07:19 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>
>>>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ralph wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/28/2013 3:16 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>>>>>>> On May 28, 11:56 am, Ralph<mmman...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 5/27/2013 3:25 PM, Terry Cross wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On May 27, 10:37 am, Free Lunch<lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 27 May 2013 10:03:03 -0700 (PDT), Terry Cross
>>>>>>>>>>> <tcros...@hotmail.com> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 27, 7:22 am, harry k<turn...@q.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On May 24, 9:30 am, jope<jope...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> By Joe McKeever
>
>>
>> You should. When Atheism came to power, it made the Thirty Years' War
>> look like an argument in a sandbox.
>
> the deaths resulting from comunism had nothing to do with religon or
> the lack there of

Of course they did. The many attacks on churches and monasteries showed
that the Communist wars were religious wars -- Communism was in both
theory and in practice an attempt to supplant the religions of the land
with the Atheist-Communist religion. And long after the Revolution,
practicing any religion other than Atheism was forbidden in most
Communist countries.

>>> Could you provide one example of a country
>>> controlled by a religion that did well?
>>
>>
>> Can you provide an example of a country controlled by Atheism that
>> banned other religions and did well?
>
> China

Your self-irony is appreciated, but it is brutal, too. A hundred
million deaths is not usually consider "doing well."

>>> I see that you are still trying to sell that Communism = atheism lie.
>>
>>
>> Your prophet Karl Marx spoke and millions died.
>
> again nothing to do with religon or god

"Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism." -- Karl Marx

I guess Marx was rather ignorant about Communism, eh?

>>>> Sometimes those principles were embodied in Christianity,
>>>> sometimes not. Sometimes "the church" expressed those principles,
>>>> sometimes not.
>>>
>>> But Jesus was not original.
>>
>>
>> Oh, of course -- the Jews -- between days when they were stoning each
>> other in the streets -- they had it all nailed down before Jesus came to
>> town. Sure.
>
> your jesus christ was a jew. not that it existed but for the sake of
> argument. jesus was born a jew and stayed a jew

Jesus kicked Judaism to the curb. Jesus was no more a Jew than George
Washington was a loyal subject of the king.

>>> How can one resent facts? Why would one resent facts? Every opinion you
>>> ever arrive at should be consistent with all of the facts you know and
>>> you should always adjust your opinion if new facts show that your
>>> opinion was not accurate.
>>
>> Those two terms may be in contradiction. In the first place, very few
>> people have the time or the intellect to integrate everything they know.
>> In the second place, too much of what we know is only "perhaps" true --
>> and cannot be used as a foundation for integration with other facts. In
>> the third place, you cannot always determine which of two contradictory
>> assertions is true.
>
> idiot

Can't refute? OK.

>> Is DDT harmful to humans as many claim, or is it harmless as someone
>> claimed endlessly on these groups a year or two ago. Integrate that.
>> What about the Alar they used on apples?
> idiot
>>
>> Is the warrantless search of your email legal? Does the order signed by
>> a secret judge in a secret court make it legal under US law?
> idiot
>>
>> Did WTC 7 fall at the speed of a free-falling body? If so, is that
>> consistent with the collapse of a building caused by heat-fatigue of the
>> steel frame?
>
> idiot

Can't refute? OK.

>> Could you send slaves into a cyanide gas chamber without thoroughly
>> airing it? Could you air a cyanide chamber without a huge stack to
>> preserve the air quality of he rest of the camp?
> ask hitler he was after all a christian
>
>>
>> Was Kimble a traitor?
>>
>> Of course, you could just slavishly accept whatever you were fed by the
>> mass media. If Opra says it's true, it's true and it never shall be
>> questioned. But that wouldn't be consistent with the rules you have
>> just laid down.
>
> idiot

Can't refute? OK.

TCross

[Free Lunch]

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 03:00:59 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>

Yes, the Orthodox Church did go to war against the Bolsheviks.

[bil...@m.nu]

On Thu, 04 Jul 2013 03:00:59 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>> idiot
>
>Can't refute? OK.
>
>TCross
>

ya see this is what you dont realuize noone needs to refute your
uneducated unfounded unproven claims. however sometimes we do because
we get bored and we have fun making you look all the ass you are. and
there are times when you post something so stupid if anyone were to
actually refute it then they would look the idiot. and it is these
times I let you know just how stupid what you posted actually was by
calling you an idiot

[Terry Cross]

Free Lunch wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 23:31:53 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
>> bil...@m.nu wrote:
>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 12:07:19 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Free Lunch wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 10:25:40 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>>>>>> even slightly.
>>>>>
>>>>> Civilization existed before Christianity and Europe had its longest
>>>>> period of stasis, even reverse, while Christianity held sway over
>>>>> Europe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since you have records only of the Christian period, your statement is
>>>> without foundation -- deliberately deceptive, it seems. One thing that
>>>> disgusts people about Atheism is its dishonesty.
>>> well there was the all the various asians.
>>
>>
>> The context of the statement and rebuttal is Europe, not Asia.
>
> Civilization is not limite to Europe, though Christianity came well
> after European civilization.

Support your statement with evidence that shows "Europe had its longest

period of stasis, even reverse, while Christianity held sway over

Europe." What other periods of Europe are you using for comparison, and
what is your evidence for those periods.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

Free Lunch wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 18:00:30 -0700, Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com>
> wrote in alt.talk.creationism:
>
>> Free Lunch wrote:
>
>>>
>>> How can one resent facts? Why would one resent facts? Every opinion you
>>> ever arrive at should be consistent with all of the facts you know and
>>> you should always adjust your opinion if new facts show that your
>>> opinion was not accurate.
>>
>> Those two terms may be in contradiction. In the first place, very few
>> people have the time or the intellect to integrate everything they know.
>
> Possibly true, but unsubstantiated.
>
>> In the second place, too much of what we know is only "perhaps" true --
>> and cannot be used as a foundation for integration with other facts. In
>> the third place, you cannot always determine which of two contradictory
>> assertions is true.
>
> Name facts that are contradictory.
>
>> Is DDT harmful to humans as many claim, or is it harmless as someone
>> claimed endlessly on these groups a year or two ago. Integrate that.
>
> There are actual facts about DDT

"There are ..." Where? Oh, that's right, you have a tap into the
ultimate truth, and it never changes except sometimes.

So from your infallible oracle, tell us which of these effects is
absolute truth, and which can be ignored:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ddt#Effects_on_human_health

>> What about the Alar they used on apples?
>
> and about Alar.

Where is your source?

>> Is the warrantless search of your email legal? Does the order signed by
>> a secret judge in a secret court make it legal under US law?
>
> That is not about science.

This is about human life, and you wrote, "Every opinion you ever arrive

at should be consistent with all of the facts you know and you should
always adjust your opinion if new facts show that your opinion was not
accurate."

You did not restrict your statement to science. Would you like to
revise your pronouncement?

>> Did WTC 7 fall at the speed of a free-falling body? If so, is that
>> consistent with the collapse of a building caused by heat-fatigue of the
>> steel frame?
>
> Anyone can see from the video what happened.

You are dodging.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

What a stupid statement. The Church fielded not a single regiment,
fired not a single shot, and killed not a single person.

>>>>> Could you provide one example of a country
>>>>> controlled by a religion that did well?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you provide an example of a country controlled by Atheism that
>>>> banned other religions and did well?
>>>
>>> China
>>
>>
>> Your self-irony is appreciated, but it is brutal, too. A hundred
>> million deaths is not usually consider "doing well."

TCross