Does a Christian "follow" the Apostle Paul?

[iqn...@noemail.com]

---
[1 Cor 3:1-6]
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
---


No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.

The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.

And that is how Christian's view the Apostle Paul -- a preacher
of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is it absolutely necessary that You accept the Apostle Paul? No.

The Book of John does a very good job of "showing the way"
of Salvation, which is through Jesus Christ.

---
[John 3:16-18]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

[John 6:35]
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me
shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

[John 6:38]
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him
that sent me.

[John 6:47-51]
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat
thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: <---
if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: <---
and the bread that I will give is MY FLESH, <---
which I will give for the life of the world. <---
---


Snow, will you also dismiss the Book of John, as a hostile witness?

[Snow]

On May 24, 12:15 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> ---
> [1 Cor 3:1-6]
> 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
> but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
>
> 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
> were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
>
> 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
> and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
>
> 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
> are ye not carnal?
>
> 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
> believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
>
> 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
> ---
>
> No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>
> The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
> Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
> what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
> given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.

This you say because you are unable to formulate your position without
Paul. If I ignore the teachings of Yeshua and place a HIGHER
authority on Paul, then I would say that I follow Paul. You seem to
think that that is some kind of death sentence rather then a conscious
choice that all Christians have made.

While Yeshua taught his followers to "Be Perfect." and that he did NOT
come for the righteous but for the sinners, Christianity says ignore
what Yeshua taught because that includes KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS and
by your doctrine, you don't have to be a good person, you can be
unrepentant murderers and by FAITH ALONE, you can will yourself
straight to heaven by using Jesus as a magic ticket to bypass
judgment.

I'm find with you believing the teachings of the Pharisee.

Mat 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and
NOT OFFERING.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance,
but sinners.”

Act 23:6 Paul …cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a
Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.”

> Snow, will you also dismiss the Book of John, as a hostile witness?

Of course not but I do interpret what he said differently then you do.

In the end IQN, It's up to you to be HUMBLE and willing to consider
another position... The position that Paul was indeed the FALSE
APOSTLE spoken of in Rev. 2.

He was on trial for speaking against the Torah but more interesting is
the fact that he was and is wrong about the resurrection and this is
something that nobody reconciles.

Rom 14:9 For unto this Messiah died and rose and lived again, to rule
over both the dead and the living.

Wrong Paul:

Mar 12:27 “He is not the Elohim of the dead, but Elohim of the living.
You, then, go greatly astray.”

If we consider the motivation of this passage, “perceiving that one
part were Sadducees”, Paul was speaking on the topic that created the
most strife between the two factions and the fruit of his
pronouncement:

Act 23:7 And when he had said this, there came a dissension between
the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And the crowd was divided.

Looking at the modern Church, we see that even unto this very date,
they are divided into dozens of major denominations. Paul’s doctrine
is and has been since the beginning to divide the church of our
Messiah. It’s worked very effectively for over 1700 years now since
his doctrine was included in the Roman canon.

Mar 3:25 “And if a house is divided against itself, that house is
unable to stand.

Paul knew all too well that the best way to destroy the church that he
hated so much wasn’t to make more martyr’s, which he tried to start
with when he murdered Stephen by his false witness. He figured out
that if he faked a conversion and joined the ranks, he would be the
Trojan horse.

To this date, men argue over the words of Paul, the majority say that
he was inspired to do away with the Torah. Some of my more faithful
brothers say that he was for the Torah. My brother in Messiah tells
me, “There is no need to tackle the many problems with the letters of
Paul; just ACNOWLEDGE that they too have been corrupted, twisted and
mystified by the Jewish Scribes and the Christian Translators”

They are looking for a translation of scriptures that doesn’t exist.
The reality of today is that Paul speaks out of both sides of his
mouth so that the end result is strife. He saw our division and by
cleaver wording, speaks against and for the Torah in the same
chapters. Those who look for the doctrine to support the doctrine
find it:

Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Torah through the belief? Let it not
be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.

Those who look for evidence the law is abolished find it:

1Co 6:12 All is permitted me, but not all do profit. All is permitted
me, but I shall not be under authority of any.

Certainly if all things are permitted to us, then the law is abolished
and so, we end up in never ending arguments over whether or not Paul
is for or against the Torah. My brother went on to say, “Repair and
Restore! Weigh all testimony in the Torah. If the testimony speaks
not according to the Torah, throw it out!” Yet, in that very post
they called the works of Paul, “the Torah”.

In the very post to me they quoted:

Eze 22:25 “There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst, like a
roaring lion tearing the prey. They have devoured life, they have
taken wealth and precious matters, they have made many widows in her
midst.
Eze 22:26 “Her priests have done violence to My teaching and they
profane My set-apart matters. They have not distinguished between the
set-apart and profane, nor have they made known the difference between
the unclean and the clean. And they have hidden their eyes from My
Sabbaths, and I am profaned in their midst.

Which if applied to Paul, we see actually fits him:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor
free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in the
Messiah Yehoshua.

They have refused to acknowledge the testimony against Paul:

Act 21:28 crying out, “Men of Yisra’ĕl, help! This is the man who is
teaching all men everywhere against the people, and the Torah, and
this place. And besides, he also brought Greeks into the Set-apart
Place and has profaned this Set-apart Place.”

The entire book of John 3 is written to Gaios, the town leader in
Ephesians that Paul baptized. Gaios is recorded having said in
Ephesia:

Act 19:38 “If truly then Demetrios and his fellow craftsmen have a
case against anyone, the courts are open and there are proconsuls. Let
them accuse one another.

Of these men that cried against Paul, one was named, Demetrios the
town smith. John said of his testimony:

3Jn 1:12 Demetrios has a good witness from all, and from the truth
itself. And we also bear witness, and you know that our witness is
true.

John went on to say about the Ephesians:

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how
thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them
which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

The Ephesians had discovered the false Apostle, Paul. I believe with
all my heart that the Messiah knew that Paul would come after him and
spoke this parable:

Mat 13:24 Another parable He put before them, saying, “The reign of
the heavens has become like a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Mat 13:25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among
the wheat and went away.
Mat 13:26 “And when the blade sprouted and bore fruit, then the darnel
also appeared.
Mat 13:27 “And the servants of the master of the house came and said
to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? From where
then does it have the darnel?’
Mat 13:28 “And he said to them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ And the
servants said to him, ‘Do you wish then, that we go and gather them
up?’
Mat 13:29 “But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the darnel you
also uproot the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time
of harvest I shall say to the reapers, “First gather the darnel and
bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my
granary.”

The enemy has sown darnel and it looks just like the wheat.
Scriptures are clear in that we are to have ONE shepherd. Will you
hear the parables and the teaching of Yeshua?

I believe the reason many will not be willing to see that Paul is the
doctrine of strife is because of pride. Because everything they
believe and have posted on their web pages and ministry are based in
Paul’s words and not our Messiah and ONE shepherd and it takes an
admission that they have been deceived, just as I was deceived when I
believed him. We don’t want to admit we could be wrong. I followed
after Paul for most of my life… I was wrong and now I see this, will
you?

The fact is he was accused of preaching against the Torah and he lied
in testimony before the court in order to cause strife.

Pro 6:16 These six matters [Yahweh] יהוה hates, And seven are an
abomination to Him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, A lying tongue, And hands shedding innocent
blood,
Pro 6:18 A heart devising wicked schemes, Feet quick to run to evil,
Pro 6:19 A false witness breathing out lies, And one who causes strife
among brothers.

He covers all that pretty good. Luke gives us a clear example of the
message of Paul dividing men that occurs even to this day. It is the
doctrine of strife and those who love it, love strife.

Now I’ve just given direct evidence that Paul gave false witness and
its rock solid. What say you?

Pro 7:21 With her many words she leads him astray, With her smooth
lips she seduces him.

If you truly desire to “repair and restore”, toss out Paul. People
admit that the reason they love the NT is because of the strife..
don’t join in.

Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven
of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

It comes down to your choice and it always has... who do you follow,
Paul or Yeshua?

[Snow]

On May 24, 4:00 pm, Pete <n...@nya.biz> wrote:

> > No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>
> > The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
> > Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
> > what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
> > given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.

> AMEN!

Ironically, "Jesus Christ" wasn't his own minister, he spoke of his
deity. So while Paul points you to "Jesus", Yeshua led you to his
Father in Heaven. Christian don't want to challenge what they believe
as true which is why they don't care to examine the differences in the
two doctrines.

If this is your idea of a proper Father, you can have him. Let’s take
a moment to better expound on the deity of Paul and Hebrews because
this deity isn’t found in any other author of “scriptures”.

You believe in a deity that hates his only begotten Son, his creation
of humanity and his chosen people. Paul’s deity makes DEATH reign
from Adam to Moses, “even over those who never sinned”.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Aḏam until Mosheh, even over those
who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of
Aḏam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This deity is not the one of Hebrew scriptures:

Eze 18:20 “The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the
crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the
son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the
wrongness of the wrong is upon himself.

Paul’s deity then places a worthless and “unprofitable” command to
enslave his “chosen people”.

Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going
before for the *weakness and unprofitableness* thereof.

That he wrote with his own finger… Exo 31:18 he purposed on his
“treasure people”… a command that is “unable to bring righteousness”.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the favour of YHWH: for if righteousness
come by the law, then the Messiah is DEAD in vain.

A deity that sets impossible standards in a 613 commands (the covenant
is only 10) form of enslavement... exchanging the bondage of Egypt for
his own tyrannical 1000 year reign of cruelty, killing off all of
Israel, scattering them to the wind until he decides to send his only
begotten Son to then be murdered in the most despicable way at the
hands of ROMAN Pharisees, only to turn around and make one them the
leader of his new church that then says all my Torah was just exacting
punishment and death so that you would believe how great he is to send
his own Son to Forsake along with his chosen people.

A deity that forgets his covenant with Israel and opens the floodgates
to murderers, whores and thieves to reign as priest in his house “by
faith alone”

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is * justified by faith
*without the deeds of the law.

Instead of those who repent and do good works because as Christians
say, you can’t keep his Torah.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Yeshua the Messiah,
even we have believed in Yeshua the Messiah,
that we might be justified by the faith of the Messiah,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Anybody that believes the first part of the book is a “judaizer and a
legalist” and is CURSED..
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the
curse:

Including anybody that believes the god that became man (Jesus) and
told them to keep the Ten Commandments. So, being obedient servants
and following the Messiah’s call to guard the commandments is just
another worthless stint and we should forget what “Jesus” taught and
just believe Paul when he says no works can save you, only faith in
Paul’s deity. Still worse is the fact that the Pharisee deity saves
people by delivering them to none other them Satan himself.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the
flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Master Yahushua.

Satan himself is now the Savior of the spirit! How does he “love his
enemies”?

1Ti 1:20 Among these are Humenaios and Alexander, whom I delivered to
Satan, in order to be taught not to blaspheme.
2Ti 2:17 and their word shall eat its way like gangrene. Humenaios and
Philetos are of this sort,

I’m feeling that Christian love… Deception is alright…

Rom 3:7 For if the truth of YHWH hath more abounded through my lie
unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

And we should pretend to be whatever it takes to bring people into the
faith…

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself
servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the
Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might
gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not
without law to YHWH, but under the law to the Messiah,) that I might
gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I
am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Worse still is that you can only find perfection leaving behind the
faulted doctrine of the Messiah..

Heb 6:1 Therefore LEAVING the principles of the DOCTRINE of the
Messiah,
let us go on unto perfection;

That even the Messiah did not have a perfect doctrine! That works are
dead… That should you NOT Repent!


not laying again the foundation of repentance
from dead works, and of faith toward YHWH,

AND EVEN FAITH IN YHWH!

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of YHWH afresh, and put him
to an open shame.

One without compassion:
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without
compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses.

And that we should ONLY believe we are saved by “the blood of the
cross” shed by murdering Romans instead of the doctrine of all the
other authors of the scriptures that call for repentance, good works
and guarding the Commands of Elohim.

That is the Pharisees “Christian faith” that doesn’t believe its own
Messiah and instead says follow a Roman Pharisee that “gave you no
burden” except that you believe HIM ALONE.

2Co 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
crafty, I caught you with guile.

Instead taking on the Messiah light yoke, you should follow one who is
“CRAFTY” and call his lies “HOLY”! So we should follow a “crafty”
pretender and the chief sinner “by faith” and deliver people to Satan
to be saved in the day…

Welcome to Christianity… follow the chief sinner…
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
that the Messiah Yehoshua came into the world to save sinners; of whom
I am chief.

I am Messianic, you can follow your Pharisee and believe you are saved
by HIS Faith ALONE.

Jer 8:9 “The wise shall be put to shame, they shall be broken down and
caught. See, they have rejected the Word of Yahweh, so what wisdom do
they have?

*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)

A religious man is a person who holds God and man in one thought at
one time, at all times, who suffers harm done to others, whose
greatest passion is compassion, whose greatest strength is love and
defiance of despair.
Abraham Joshua Heschel

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 05:10:23 +0000
Message-ID: <703cbb7b-981a-4b3a...@n5g2000pbg.googlegroups.com>
Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

IQN wote:

> No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>
> The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
> Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
> what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
> given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Snow wrote:
> This you say because you are unable to formulate your position
> without Paul.

False, as I have already shown from the Book of John.

Snow wrote:
> If I ignore the teachings of Yeshua and place a HIGHER
> authority on Paul, then I would say that I follow Paul. You seem to
> think that that is some kind of death sentence rather then a conscious
> choice that all Christians have made.

No Christian, places a "HIGHER" authority on Paul.
Thats all in your head. It's playing tricks on you.

> I'm find with you believing the teachings of the Pharisee.

False Assumption.


IQN wote:

> Snow, will you also dismiss the Book of John, as a hostile witness?

Snow wrote:
> Of course not but I do interpret what he said differently then you do.

Evidently. But, you do not say How you interpret it.

Snow wrote:
> In the end IQN, It's up to you to be HUMBLE and willing to consider
> another position... The position that Paul was indeed the FALSE
> APOSTLE spoken of in Rev. 2.

I considered it. And now, I reject it, based on false premises.
Zero variables.

Snow wrote:
> Rom 14:9 For unto this Messiah died and rose and lived again, to rule
> over both the dead and the living.

I have already covered this verse. I guess you forgot it.

Jesus Christ, was spoke of the dead, SPIRITUALLY.

Paul, spoke of the dead, who are in Jesus Christ, BODILY.

There is a difference, you know.

Snow wrote:
> He figured out that if he faked a conversion and joined the ranks,
> he would be the Trojan horse.

False Assumption. Zero variables.

Snow wrote:
> The reality of today is that Paul speaks out of both sides of his
> mouth so that the end result is strife.

False Assumption. Zero variables.

Snow wrote:
> I believe the reason many will not be willing to see that Paul is the
> doctrine of strife is because of pride.

False Assumption. Zero variables.

Snow wrote:
> Because everything they believe and have posted on their

> web pages and ministry ...

WHO ARE THEY?
WHAT web page?

Snow wrote:
> The fact is he was accused of preaching against the Torah and he lied
> in testimony before the court in order to cause strife.

In order to get away from them, he pitted them against one
another over the ressurection issue. It wouldn't be the first
time someone used deception. Jacob and Esau comes to mind.

Snow wrote:
> Luke gives us a clear example of the message of Paul dividing
> men that occurs even to this day. It is the doctrine of strife
> and those who love it, love strife.

False Assumption. Zero variables.

Snow wrote:
> Now I've just given direct evidence that Paul gave
> false witness and its rock solid. What say you?

What? Because of this?....

Snow wrote:
> The fact is he was accused of preaching against the Torah and he lied
> in testimony before the court in order to cause strife.

It depends on how you look at it. I don't hold that against him.
Actually, I think it's kinda funny how that turned out.

Snow wrote:
> It comes down to your choice and it always has... who do you follow,
> Paul or Yeshua?

Jesus Christ.

It never was an issue. Not for the Christian's I have known in my lifetime.

It might be different for YOU, or what YOU have experienced.

Don't think for a second, this issue is UNIVERSAL in Christianity.

I have never seen it.

[Snow]

On May 24, 5:24 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:

> Snow wrote:
> > If I ignore the teachings of Yeshua and place a HIGHER
> > authority on Paul, then I would say that I follow Paul.  You seem to
> > think that that is some kind of death sentence rather then a conscious
> > choice that all Christians have made.
>
> No Christian, places a "HIGHER" authority on Paul.
> Thats all in your head. It's playing tricks on you.

ALL the gospels say that Yeshua taught gentiles to guard the Ten
commandments, I'll post them for you to leave no doubt:

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Yashua said, Thou shalt do no
murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
neighbor as thyself.

Mar 10:18 And Yeshua said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
none good but one, that is, YHWH.
Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do
not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour
thy father and mother.

Luk 18:19 And Yeshua said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is
good, save one, that is, YHWH.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do
not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father
and thy mother.


Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who
loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall
love him and manifest Myself to him.”
Joh 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the
Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of YHWH, that we keep his commandments:
and his commandments are not grievous.

So... naturally, you are going to tell me that all Christians need to
be guarding the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath... right?

[vince garcia]

I see nowhere in the entire new testament where ANYONE was ever told
'keep the 10 comamndments.' Quite the contrary.

In fact, in the very passage you misuse/misunderstand (matt 19), where
Jesus DOES NOT list the 10 commandments, notice what comamndment He
POINTEDLY LEAVES OUT of the list: The SABBATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Terry Cross]

This says that FIVE of the Commandments are sufficient.

> Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
> Joh 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who
> loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall
> love him and manifest Myself to him.”
> Joh 14:24 “He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the
> Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.
> 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of YHWH, that we keep his commandments:
> and his commandments are not grievous.

The other FIVE are not mentioned.

TCross

[Snow]

So, your argument is that since he didn't specifically mention the
Sabbath as one of the Ten Commandments of Moses that suddenly it
doesn't matter anymore... Interesting.

Mat 12:12 “So it is right to do good on the Sabbath.”

Since most of us know that the Sabbath acknowledges the creation and
was since the first seventh day, it was made for mankind to rest.

Gen 2:3 And Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because
on it He rested from all His work which Elohim in creating had made.

The Sabbath is actually from the beginning.. Israel knew about before
having the commandments given to them at Mt. Sinia:

Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day1. Footnote: The
seventh day of the week, the weekly Sabbath, was observed before the
Ten Words were given on Mt. Sinai.

What a shame that you don't understand that because of your tradition.

[Snow]

I'm a Christian Terry.. All I need is one commandment.. I get to go
around saying I believe in Jesus and I get saved by 'faith alone'...
just because I believe it but wait... there's more and as an added
bonus, I can tell everybody else that they are going to burn in hell
for eternity if they don't believe my non-sense.

Gotta love that racket!

[r]

On May 24, 12:15 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:

> ---
> [1 Cor 3:1-6]
> 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
> but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
>
> 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
> were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
>
> 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
> and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
>
> 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
> are ye not carnal?
>
> 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
> believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
>
> 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
> ---
>
> No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.

What should be done with this injunction - "Be ye followers of me,
even as I also am of Christ" 1Co 11:1 ?

[vince garcia]

No--my argument is that the law is the law, and that the 10 do not and
cannot exist apart from the whole, and that you have totally
misunderstood what you have read, and taken an english translation of a
greek word and equated it with torah comamdnments when it doesn't mean
that at all in most cases.

You gave 3 examples where the word "comamdnments" does not refer to the
law, but rather precepts, but to YOUR mind, you THINK it means "keep the
10 comamdnmnets as covenantal law" and you're wrong

>
> Mat 12:12 “So it is right to do good on the Sabbath.”
>
> Since most of us know that the Sabbath acknowledges the creation and
> was since the first seventh day, it was made for mankind to rest.
>
> Gen 2:3 And Elohim blessed the seventh day and set it apart, because
> on it He rested from all His work which Elohim in creating had made.
>
> The Sabbath is actually from the beginning.. Israel knew about before
> having the commandments given to them at Mt. Sinia:
>
> Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day1. Footnote: The
> seventh day of the week, the weekly Sabbath, was observed before the
> Ten Words were given on Mt. Sinai.
>
> What a shame that you don't understand that because of your tradition.

Show me every command in the NT epistles for me to keep the sabbath.
Start at Romans and move forward.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 11:56:32 +0000
Message-ID: <71b86aed-2bec-4830...@kt20g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>

Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

Snow wrote:
> If I ignore the teachings of Yeshua and place a HIGHER

> authority on Paul, then I would say that I follow Paul. =A0You seem to

> think that that is some kind of death sentence rather then a conscious
> choice that all Christians have made.

IQN wrote:
> No Christian, places a "HIGHER" authority on Paul.
> Thats all in your head. It's playing tricks on you.

Snow wrote:
> ALL the gospels say that Yeshua taught gentiles to guard the Ten
> commandments, I'll post them for you to leave no doubt:
>
> Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
> none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life,
> keep the commandments.
> Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Yashua said, Thou shalt do no
> murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou
> shalt not bear false witness,
> Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy
> neighbor as thyself.
>
> Mar 10:18 And Yeshua said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is
> none good but one, that is, YHWH.
> Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do
> not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour
> thy father and mother.
>
> Luk 18:19 And Yeshua said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is
> good, save one, that is, YHWH.
> Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do
> not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father
> and thy mother.
>
>
> Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

> Joh 14:21 =93He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who

> loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall

> love him and manifest Myself to him.=94
> Joh 14:24 =93He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the

> Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.
> 1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of YHWH, that we keep his commandments:
> and his commandments are not grievous.
>
> So... naturally, you are going to tell me that all Christians need to
> be guarding the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath... right?

The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's chosen people,
to keep and observe. It was not given to the Gentiles.

Today, we have Two Commandments, which requires the balance of
the Ten for all keep - Both Jew and Gentile.

Jesus Christ said...

---
[Matt 22:37-40]
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
---

The Apostle Paul said...

---
[Romans 3:31]
31 Do we then make void the law through faith?
God forbid: <---
yea, we establish the law. <---
---

[Snow]

On May 24, 10:31 pm, vince garcia <vggarci...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > The Sabbath is actually from the beginning..  Israel knew about before
> > having the commandments given to them at Mt. Sinia:
>
> > Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day1. Footnote: The
> > seventh day of the week, the weekly Sabbath, was observed before the
> > Ten Words were given on Mt. Sinai.
>
> > What a shame that you don't understand that because of your tradition.
>
> Show me every command in the NT epistles for me to keep the sabbath.
> Start at Romans and move forward.

Why would I waste my time on that?

Isa 45:20 “No knowledge have they who are lifting up the wood of their
carved image, and pray to a mighty one that does not save.

It is your choice Vincent.. follow who you want.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 12:26:36 +0000
Message-ID: <8390fa61-6c2d-41fc...@wg15g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>
r <roy...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On May 24, 12:15=A0pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> > ---
> > [1 Cor 3:1-6]
> > 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
> > but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
> >
> > 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
> > were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
> >
> > 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
> > and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
> >
> > 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
> > are ye not carnal?
> >
> > 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
> > believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
> >
> > 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
> > ---
> >
> > No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>


r wrote:
> What should be done with this injunction - "Be ye followers of me,
> even as I also am of Christ" 1Co 11:1 ?

If you take the full context of 1 Corinthians, it's a safe
assumption, that the Apostle Paul, was saying:

HEY, don't follow those other doctrines!
All they do is cause divisions among you.

Follow the Gospel I preached to you,
and be of one mind in Jesus Christ.

---
[Gal 1:8-9]
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven,
preach any other gospel unto you than that
which we have preached unto you,
let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again,
If any man preach any other gospel unto
you than that ye have received, let him
be accursed.
---

[vince garcia]

Snow wrote:
>
> On May 24, 10:31 pm, vince garcia <vggarci...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > > The Sabbath is actually from the beginning.. Israel knew about before
> > > having the commandments given to them at Mt. Sinia:
> >
> > > Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day1. Footnote: The
> > > seventh day of the week, the weekly Sabbath, was observed before the
> > > Ten Words were given on Mt. Sinai.
> >
> > > What a shame that you don't understand that because of your tradition.
> >
> > Show me every command in the NT epistles for me to keep the sabbath.
> > Start at Romans and move forward.
>
> Why would I waste my time on that?

Because it proves my point and disproves yours that you can't find any
reference to sabbath keeping in the new covenant because it is not a
requirement of the NC

[Snow]

On May 24, 10:50 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:

> > So... naturally, you are going to tell me that all Christians need to
> > be guarding the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath... right?
>
> The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's chosen people,
> to keep and observe. It was not given to the Gentiles.

Exo 12:49 “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger
who sojourns among you.”

Um, the bible says your wrong. In Matthew when Yeshua preached the
commandments, he was teaching gentiles.

Mat 19:1 And it came to pass, that when Yeshua had finished these
sayings, he departed from Galilee (of the gentiles), and came into the
coasts of Judea beyond Jordan;

He wasn't in Israel preaching the commandments to Jews. They know them
still.

> The Apostle Paul said...
>
> ---
> [Romans 3:31]
> 31 Do we then make void the law through faith?
> God forbid: <---
> yea, we establish the law. <---

Psst: You don't establish anything but lawlessness much less uphold
it.

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the Earth pass
away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till
ALL be done.

Earth is still here.. so, like I pointed out, you are quoting Paul to
support your dogma that is suppose to give you authority over that of
what Yeshua taught in the gospels... Oh... lest you forget:

Rev 14:12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones,1 here are those
guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of Yeshua.

What are they guarding??? Uh hu, the Commandments.

Look, I'm fine with you following Paul.. Just acknowledge it and move
on. You have a choice and because you do not want to acknowledge the
ETERNAL SABBATH, you choose to follow one who gave you no yoke because
he's crafty.

Mat 11:29 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and
humble in heart

Gal 5:1 stand firm, then, and do not again be held with a yoke of
slavery.

You do realize that he is calling the commandments of the almighty,
"The yoke of slavery"?

I get that you don't care... it's more important to you that your
right. Follow who you want.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 13:35:20 +0000
Message-ID: <5731211d-ad22-4757...@z10g2000pbn.googlegroups.com>
Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

IQN wrote:
> The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's chosen people,
> to keep and observe. It was not given to the Gentiles.

Snow wrote:
> Exo 12:49 There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger
> who sojourns among you.
>
> Um, the bible says your wrong. In Matthew when Yeshua preached the
> commandments, he was teaching gentiles.

You contradicted yourself, but you don't know it.

[Snow]

On May 24, 11:51 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 13:35:20 +0000
> Message-ID: <5731211d-ad22-4757...@z10g2000pbn.googlegroups.com>
>

> Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> IQN wrote:
> > The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's chosen people,
> > to keep and observe. It was not given to the Gentiles.
> Snow wrote:
> > Exo 12:49 There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger
> > who sojourns among you.
>
> > Um, the bible says your wrong. In Matthew when Yeshua preached the
> > commandments, he was teaching gentiles.
>
> You contradicted yourself, but you don't know it.

Why do you think Yeshua title is "The light to the Gentiles"? What do
you think the light is, that Yeshua was speaking about?

Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And
reproofs of discipline a way of life

This is what you call a 'curse' because you don't know any better...
you follow after that other guy. Listen and take this to heart:

Psa 19:7 The Torah of YHWH is perfect, bringing back the being; The
witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The
command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes;
Psa 19:9 The fear of יהוה is clean, standing forever; The right-
rulings of יהוה are true, They are righteous altogether,
Psa 19:10 More desirable than gold, Than much fine gold; And sweeter
than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Also, Your servant is warned by them, In guarding them there
is great reward.


Great reward my friend... try and learn. Take care and be blessed.
The choice is yours to make.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 13:35:20 +0000
Message-ID: <5731211d-ad22-4757...@z10g2000pbn.googlegroups.com>

Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

Snow wrote:
> Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and
> humble in heart
>
> Gal 5:1 stand firm, then, and do not again be held with a yoke of
> slavery.
>
> You do realize that he is calling the commandments of the almighty,
> "The yoke of slavery"?

No. That's not what he meant. Those are two different issues.

By the way, I checked up on your sect.
You are outside of mainline Messianic beliefs.

[Snow]

On May 25, 12:03 am, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 13:35:20 +0000
> Message-ID: <5731211d-ad22-4757...@z10g2000pbn.googlegroups.com>
>

> Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> Snow wrote:
> > Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and
> > humble in heart
>
> > Gal 5:1 stand firm, then, and do not again be held with a yoke of
> > slavery.
>
> > You do realize that he is calling the commandments of the almighty,
> > "The yoke of slavery"?
>
> No. That's not what he meant. Those are two different issues.
>
> By the way, I checked up on your sect.
> You are outside of mainline Messianic beliefs.

I have my own unique beliefs.

Examining Greek text, we find that the word “Sabbath” is removed in
many locations after the resurrection.

(Mar 16:2) (Mar 16:9) (Luk 18:12) (Luk 24:1) (Joh 20:1) (Joh 20:19)
(Act 20:7) (1Co 16:2) (Heb 4:9)

In Matthew 28:1, Sabbath is in the Greek text twice. (Mat 28:1) The
text was altered to propagate the idea that somehow the Torah was
abolished even though Yeshua, the Messiah specifically stated that not
a single jot would change.

I'm certain you will find that of the 12,000 denominations of
Christians, you will find many that don't agree with you too. You do
not have to agree with me.

Luk 11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every
kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house
divided against a house falleth.

Those are the words of the Messiah Yeshua and in every bible today is
the Trojan horse of the Christian church.

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the
gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me,
as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

2 Different doctrines in the same book.

[duke]

Snow, Christianity doesn't say that. Christianity says that we are to love and
obey God and love and service our neighbor in need. Needless to say that many
protest_ants don't understand that and do draw lines of confusion, but not those
that know the bible.

The dukester, American - American

********************************************
Repeal Obama
You simply can't fix stupid.
********************************************

[duke]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 07:24:54 +0000 (UTC), iqn...@noemail.com wrote:

>On Fri, 24 May 2013 05:10:23 +0000
>Message-ID: <703cbb7b-981a-4b3a...@n5g2000pbg.googlegroups.com>
>Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
>IQN wote:
>> No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>>
>> The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
>> Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
>> what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
>> given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.
>
>Snow wrote:
>> This you say because you are unable to formulate your position
>> without Paul.
>
>False, as I have already shown from the Book of John.

Do you not understand that every book in the NT exists as canonized because it
has been determined that said book is fully in line with that which was taught
by the Lord Jesus.

[duke]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 12:50:27 +0000 (UTC), iqn...@noemail.com wrote:

>> So... naturally, you are going to tell me that all Christians need to
>> be guarding the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath... right?

>The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's chosen people,
>to keep and observe. It was not given to the Gentiles.

The Sabbath is the 7th day after 6 days of creation. All people of God are to
give 1 day in 7 to the Lord. You're trying to say that God didn't give the
sabbath to head hunters. It did upon conversion.

>Today, we have Two Commandments, which requires the balance of
>the Ten for all keep - Both Jew and Gentile.
>Jesus Christ said...

The 10 commandments of God are still in effect for all and easily satisfied by
love and obedience to God and love and service to our neighbor in need.

[Linda Lee]

I have been a Christian all of my life; I am now 60 years old.
Throughout my life, I always focused on the words of the Messiah
through his apostles, and the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, John, Luke,
and the books of John, Peter, James, Jude, and Revelation. And it was
those writings that led me to believe that the Messiah had been God in
the flesh, and not Paul's writings.

I read some of Paul's writings, but was not particularly interested in
his viewpoint, and I virtually ignored him until the late 80's (when I
was in my thirties) when I read something in Romans Chapter Seven that
I thought at the time was completely untrue and really evil, and I
began to view him as suspect.

I continued to ignore Paul until in the early 90's I began to read
Paul's writings in more depth, but the things I read from Paul were
then viewed from a skewed viewpoint, as I suspected his conversion had
been insincere and had rejected him as a valid minister of the Gospel,
and so I found much to criticize in his writings, although other
things seemed to contradict some of his harsher statements.

Then I began posting to the ngs in 2006, and when people argued with
my rejection of Paul, I became very harsh in my criticism of him,
saying the Messiah was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that Paul
was the way to Hell, the Lie, and Death. Nothing they said could sway
my opinion, but I did say a few times, that if I ever decided I was
wrong about Paul, I would say so on the newsgroups where I had
criticized him, and periodically I asked God to tell me if I had
misunderstood him and was wrong about Paul, as many Christians said I
was.

Finally God brought to my mind the moment in the late 80's when I
first decided something Paul said was untrue and evil and began to
view everything he said as suspect. It was Romans Chapter Seven, where
he said he wanted to do good, but did evil instead, and (I thought)
implying he could not ever do anything good (Rom. 7:19, "For the good
that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.) It
was the implication that I thought was false and evil. But I had taken
that chapter out of context of the preceding chapter, which was part
of his same speech, and in which he said to all believers that they
were no longer "servants of sin", but had become "servants of
God" (Rom. 6:20-22), able to perform good works. (Eph. 2:20, "For we
are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which
God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".)


Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye
should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of
unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that
are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of
righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not
under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law,
but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to
obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death,
or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye
have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered
you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of
righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of
your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to
uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your
members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from
righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now
ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to
God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He begins Romans Chapter Seven saying he was speaking to them that
know the law (i.e. Jewish converts to Christianity), and he was
telling them of the state he had been in when he was under the law; he
wanted to obey the law, but broke the law, even though he knew he
would be condemned for his disobedience to it, and that Christ had
saved him from that "living death" (the living death being the
knowledge that he would be condemned under the law as he was among the
"servants of sin" – Rom. 6:17). I realized in this detailed
description in Romans Seven, he was saying in essence the same thing
he had said again briefly in Eph. 2:8 ("For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".)

So I began to read Paul's writings with a different viewpoint and an
open mind, and I realized one other thing that hung me up concerning
his writings was the word "works"; he often doesn't specify whether he
was speaking of "works" of the law of Moses or good "works" under the
Gospel of Christ, and once I understood that, his writings made much
more sense to me and most of it didn't look contradictory. {Still, his
citation of the law of Moses in 1 Cor. 14:34 is such an anomoly,
conflicting with everything he says elsewhere concerning the law of
Moses (and conflicts particulary with Gal. 3:28, "There is neither Jew

nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor

female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus") that I must take it as
possibly a spurious later insertion into his writings.}

Anyway, my POINT is it was NOT ever Paul's writings that led me to
believe that Christ was God in the flesh; it was the Messiah's own
words concerning himself that led me to believe that Christ was God in
the flesh as the Saviour. My beliefs concerning the deity of Christ
did not ever change, not when I ignored Paul, not when I rejected
Paul, and not when I finally accepted Paul's conversion as genuine and
read his writings in more depth. Paul taught the SAME GOSPEL that is
taught elsewhere in the New Testament – CHRIST'S GOSPEL; those who
think otherwise, either don't understand Christ's words, OR they don't
understand Paul's words, OR THEY UNDERSTAND NEITHER.

[Linda Lee]

On May 24, 1:10 am, Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:

> On May 24, 12:15 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > ---
> > [1 Cor 3:1-6]
> > 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
> > but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
>
> > 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
> > were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
>
> > 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
> > and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
>
> > 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
> > are ye not carnal?
>
> > 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
> > believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
>
> > 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
> > ---
>
> > No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>
> > The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
> > Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
> > what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
> > given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.
>

> This you say because you are unable to formulate your position without

> Paul.  If I ignore the teachings of Yeshua and place a HIGHER
> authority on Paul, then I would say that I follow Paul.  You seem to
> think that that is some kind of death sentence rather then a conscious
> choice that all Christians have made.
>
> While Yeshua taught his followers to "Be Perfect." and that he did NOT
> come for the righteous but for the sinners, Christianity says ignore
> what Yeshua taught because that includes KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS and
> by your doctrine, you don't have to be a good person, you can be
> unrepentant murderers and by FAITH ALONE, you can will yourself
> straight to heaven by using Jesus as a magic ticket to bypass
> judgment.
>

> I'm find with you believing the teachings of the Pharisee.
>

> Mat 9:13 “But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and
> NOT OFFERING.’ For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance,
> but sinners.”
>
> Act 23:6  Paul …cried out in the council, “Men and brethren, I am a
> Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.”

>
> > Snow, will you also dismiss the Book of John, as a hostile witness?
>

> Of course not but I do interpret what he said differently then you do.

John 6:51 cannot be misinterpreted, yet you deny Christ sacrificed
himself to wash away the sins of believers:

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: <---

if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: <---
and the bread that I will give is MY FLESH, <---
which I will give for the life of the world. <---
>

> In the end IQN, It's up to you to be HUMBLE and willing to consider
> another position...

Take your own advice.

Snip the rest of your post, as it is the words of a false and
perpetually confused wannabe-teacher - Snowjob.

[Linda Lee]

He also leaves out the apostles' dismayed response to hearing this,
"WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?" (Matt. 19:25), and the Messiah's response,
"With men this is impossible; but with God all things are
possible" (Matt. 19:26), referring to belief in him/Christ as the
"gift of God" who provides the "living water" of eternal life (John
4:14).



Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed,
saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is
impossible; but with God all things are possible.



Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift
of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou
wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living
water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw
with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living
water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the
well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this
water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him
shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in
him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I
thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come
hither.
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said
unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast
is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Joh 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a
prophet.
Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in
Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh,
when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship
the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for
salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers
shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father
seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him
in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which
is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

[Linda Lee]

Also clear in Matthew 7:

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do
to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and
broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which
go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

THAT is what the Messiah required of believers.

>
> The Apostle Paul said...
>
> ---
> [Romans 3:31]
> 31 Do we then make void the law through faith?
> God forbid: <---
> yea, we establish the law. <---
> ---

And we establish the law the way the Messiah told us to do so:
"all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even
so to them: for this is the law and the prophets".

[Linda Lee]

On May 24, 11:54 am, Pete <n...@nya.biz> wrote:

> On Fri, 24 May 2013 05:26:36 -0700 (PDT), r <roym...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 24, 12:15 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> >> ---
> >> [1 Cor 3:1-6]
> >> 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
> >> but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
>
> >> 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
> >> were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
>
> >> 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
> >> and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
>
> >> 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
> >> are ye not carnal?
>
> >> 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
> >> believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
>
> >> 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
> >> ---
>
> >> No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>
> > What should be done with this injunction - "Be ye followers of me,
> > even as I also am of Christ" 1Co 11:1  ?
>

> One should read that verse in context with Chapter 10 before it when he was
> speaking to the Corinthians about how to walk in Christ, and dealing with
> those around him. Then read the verse in its context with its original
> meaning in todays English, "Imitator"
>
> 1Co 11:1  Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ.


People tend to think they can take single chapters alone, when several
chapters, or entire 'books', especially in Paul's writings, might
comprise one single speech being made.

[Linda Lee]

On May 24, 1:57 pm, Pete <n...@nya.biz> wrote:

> Thank you for your testimony!


You're welcome, and thanks for that. And you must know how I hate to
admit I'm ever wrong... Lol! I may not listen to men or to women,
but I listen to God when I feel he's speaking to me. Who knows? Maybe
God let me be in error concerning Paul for this very reason - to
declare publicly that Paul's writings had nothing to do with my belief
in Christ as God in the flesh as the only Saviour.

[Snow]

On May 25, 3:44 am, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:

> Paul taught the SAME GOSPEL that is
> taught elsewhere in the New Testament – CHRIST'S GOSPEL; those who
> think otherwise, either don't understand Christ's words, OR they don't
> understand Paul's words, OR THEY UNDERSTAND NEITHER.

Thanks for sharing Linda. All of this doesn't do a thing to reconcile
his outright lies... Lies you use to understand. You may not like it
but he is still a Pharisee and by extension, his teachings create more
every moment.

Act 23:6 Paul .. cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a
Pharisee"

This is your 'converted' Christians own words... I'm fine with you
following him but please don't assume that I need to follow him.

Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven
of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

2Co 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
crafty, I caught you with guile.

Who is 'CRAFTY" that you think I need to understand him? Look how
Crafty the serpent is... even has you questioning your own logic.

Take care.

[jwshe...@satx.rr.com]

John 3:16

For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the
dead
thou shalt be saved.

2 Peter 3:15
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
even as our beloved brother Paul
also according to the wisdom given unto him
hath written unto you;

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction.

[Snow]

On May 25, 6:15 am, "jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com"

<jwsheffi...@satx.rr.com> wrote:
> John 3:16
> For God so loved the world,
> that he gave his only begotten Son,
> that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
>  but have everlasting life.

I always find this passage interesting since it clearly establishes
two entities... The son sent by the Father that you should 'believe'.
So when he laters says,

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who

loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall

love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Why are Christians so quick to deny his commandments... You know the
ones... So why do people teach to disregard the commands? What's
also interesting is that this verse doesn't say that he sent his son
to be MURDERED by Romans. I don't think Christians understand that
they interpret this passage as saying something that it doesn't...
You can't say you believe in him and then later on ignore his
commandments... but that's my opinion. Do any of you know who you
become when you preach against them or try to redefine them?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make
war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of
YAHWEH, and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah.

The church of the dragon.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 17:44:36 +0000
Message-ID: <37838425-0f4d-47e7...@g3g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>
Linda Lee <lindag...@juno.com> wrote:

<quote>

"servants of sin" - Rom. 6:17). I realized in this detailed

</quote>


Thanks for sharing this with us, Linda.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 24 May 2013 14:46:40 +0000
Message-ID: <acbd5797-492c-43b6...@zo5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>
Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

<snip>

IQN wrote:
> By the way, I checked up on your sect.
> You are outside of mainline Messianic beliefs.

Snow wrote:
> I have my own unique beliefs.

[John 1:4-5]
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness
comprehended it not.

[Snow]

On May 25, 2:30 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 14:46:40 +0000
> Message-ID: <acbd5797-492c-43b6...@zo5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>
>

> Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> IQN wrote:
> > By the way, I checked up on your sect.
> > You are outside of mainline Messianic beliefs.
> Snow wrote:
> > I have my own unique beliefs.
>
> [John 1:4-5]
> 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
> 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness
> comprehended it not.

Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And

reproofs of discipline a way of life,

You seem to think I would disagree with John? I just happen to know
what that light is.. do you? Without the Torah, you are in darkness.
Hope that helps you understand that the law is COMPASSION. It
requires you to live actively with compassion, just like the example
set by Yeshua.

UNDERSTAND THIS:

Jas 2:13 For the judgment is without compassion to the one who has
shown no compassion. And compassion boasts over judgment.

If you have no compassion, don't expect any... The Torah is that as
you do to other people, it shall be done to you.

Mat 7:12 “Therefore, whatever you wish men to do to you, do also to
them, for this is the Torah and the Prophets.

Take your understanding from Yeshua, not me.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 09:56:50 +0000
Message-ID: <b539c728-52b9-4c0a...@a9g2000pbq.googlegroups.com>
Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

<snip previous haders>

IQN wrote:
> By the way, I checked up on your sect.
> You are outside of mainline Messianic beliefs.

Snow wrote:
> I have my own unique beliefs.

IQN wrote:
> [John 1:4-5]
> 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
> 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness
> comprehended it not.

Snow wrote:
> Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And
> reproofs of discipline a way of life,
>
> You seem to think I would disagree with John? I just happen to know
> what that light is.. do you? Without the Torah, you are in darkness.

The light, that John spoke of, is not the Torah.

[Snow]

On May 25, 8:31 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:

> Snow wrote:
> > Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And
> > reproofs of discipline a way of life,
>
> > You seem to think I would disagree with John? I just happen to know
> > what that light is.. do you? Without the Torah, you are in darkness.
>
> The light, that John spoke of, is not the Torah.

Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak
according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak1.
Footnote: 1Or light

What a shame you did not believe.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:45:10 +0000
Message-ID: <fef2f977-d4ee-4a91...@kt20g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>

Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

Snow wrote:
> Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And
> reproofs of discipline a way of life,
>
> You seem to think I would disagree with John? I just happen to know
> what that light is.. do you? Without the Torah, you are in darkness.

IQN wrote:
> The light, that John spoke of, is not the Torah.

Snow wrote:
> Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak
> according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak1.
> Footnote: 1Or light
>
> What a shame you did not believe.

False Assumption. Out of Context.

Let me provide it for you...

---
[Isaiah 8:18-20]
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD
hath given me are for signs and for wonders
in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which
dwelleth in mount Zion.

19 And when they shall say unto you,
Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
should not a people seek unto their God?
for the living to the dead?

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak
not according to this word, it is because there is
no light in them.
---


Now, that passage is very clear.

[Snow]

On May 25, 9:51 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 25 May 2013 10:45:10 +0000
> Message-ID: <fef2f977-d4ee-4a91...@kt20g2000pbb.googlegroups.com>
>

Do you think the context changes what it says? You do realize that
the name of the creator is removed from that passage you quoted?
Keep in mind, I’m a former Christian, I want to try and explain things
to you that I expect you to examine for yourself.

Imagine if somebody handed you the New Testament and the name of Jesus
Christ wasn’t in it. Imagine if instead of that, somebody told you,
the name of Jesus is too holy to print so instead they put, Name
Title. Instead of what you read now, it would say:

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Name Title, the son of David,
the son of Abraham.

Now imagine that this is the scriptures that goes into mass
distribution and a thousand years later, everybody is worshiping Name
Title, the son of David.

Then the invention of E-swords revolutionizes the world and access to
the original text is made possible for the entire world… and people
start to figure out that they aren’t suppose to be worshiping Name
Title… It would start off with one person and everybody would look at
him as if he’s a mad man.. but then, other people would look into it
and they would realize that he was right… That’s exactly what has
happened hear… Now, I’m not the one to find this but I’m one of the
people that figured out the other guys were right.

Mat 22:44

(KJVR) The NAME said unto my Name, Sit thou on my right hand, till I
make thine enemies thy footstool?

(Translit+) . kuriosG2962 epoG2036 . . kuriosG2962

Now, the Greek text says one thing but this is quoting Psalm 110:1
which in the KJV reads:
Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Nothing really in the readers mind tips them off to anything until…
You restore the name of Yahweh.

Psa 110:1 YAHWEH said unto my Master, Sit thou at my right hand, until
I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Mat 22:44 Yahweh said to my Master, “Sit at My right hand, until I
make Your enemies a footstool of Your feet” ’?

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 12:11:20 +0000
Message-ID: <c0b92f0b-92fb-444b...@a9g2000pbq.googlegroups.com>

Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:


IQN wrote:
> [John 1:4-5]
> 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
> 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness
> comprehended it not.

Snow wrote:
> Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And
> reproofs of discipline a way of life,
>
> You seem to think I would disagree with John? I just happen to know
> what that light is.. do you? Without the Torah, you are in darkness.

IQN wrote:
> The light, that John spoke of, is not the Torah.

Snow wrote:
> Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak
> according to this Word, it is because they have no daybreak1.
> Footnote: 1Or light
>
> What a shame you did not believe.

IQN wrote:
> False Assumption. Out of Context.
>
> Let me provide it for you...
>
> ---
> [Isaiah 8:18-20]
> 18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD
> hath given me are for signs and for wonders
> in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which
> dwelleth in mount Zion.
>
> 19 And when they shall say unto you,
> Seek unto them that have familiar spirits,
> and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter:
> should not a people seek unto their God?
> for the living to the dead?
>
> 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak
> not according to this word, it is because there is
> no light in them.
> ---
>
> Now, that passage is very clear.

Snow wrote:
> Do you think the context changes what it says?

From what you were presenting previously - YES.

Snow wrote:
> You do realize that the name of the creator is removed from
> that passage you quoted?

I know of who and what it says.


Snow wrote:
> Keep in mind, I'm a former Christian, ...

Interesting.

Snow wrote:
> I want to try and explain things to you that I expect
> you to examine for yourself.

No need - I have already, thanks.

Snow wrote:
> Imagine if somebody handed you the New Testament and
> the name of Jesus Christ wasn't in it.

But, it's not That way.

AND, I know the difference between LORD and Lord.
AND, every language has a different name.
AND, every language knows the difference.
AND, God has many names.
AND, God knows the heart.

[jwshe...@satx.rr.com]

On May 24, 4:02 pm, Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:

"I always find this passage interesting since it clearly establishes
two entities... The son sent by the Father that you should 'believe'.
So when he laters says,
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 “He who possesses My commands and guards them, it is he who
loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I
shall
love him and manifest Myself to him.”

The Law teaches us that we are sinners, and Jesus
gives us the pearl of great price in the Gospel of forgiveness,
so we press on,always keeping our eyes on the prize.

I suggest you read.

The Pilgrim's Progress: Both Parts and with Original Illustrations
[Paperback]
John Bunyan (Author), Frederick Barnard (Illustrator)

Book Description
Publication Date: October 3, 2011 | ISBN-10: 1936830213 | ISBN-13:
978-1936830213
Many editions of John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress only have the first
half, which follows the journey of Christian, written c. 1678. They
omit the second part, written c. 1684, where Christian's wife,
Christiana, follows her husband. This edition, however, has both parts
together as a single volume. Moreover, it contains the original
illustrations by Frederick Barnard (which were engraved by the Dalziel
brothers) and an index of Bible references Bunyan cited. These
features allow the modern reader to experience the full weight of this
classic allegory. Bunyan began writing this work while imprisoned for
not obeying the state church in England. Still, Bunyan considered
life's trials to be mild compared to the prospect of eternal
separation from God. He reminds us that we are only pilgrims here; our
home is elsewhere. To get there, we must mind our step.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Pilgrims-Progress-Original-Illustrations/dp/1936830213/

[Snow]

On May 25, 11:09 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:


It's always your choice.

Pro 30:4 Who has gone up to the heavens and come down? Who has
gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name, AND what
is His Son’s Name, If you know it?


Since people continue with man’s tradition of hiding and removing his
name from scriptures, true believers must know what they say.

Jer 12:16 And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the
ways of my people, to swear by my name, YAHWEH liveth; as they taught
my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of
my people.
Jer 12:17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and
destroy that nation, saith YAHWEH.

Baal is translated LORD as shown here:

Isa 16:8 the lord1167 of the heathen1471
H1167
בּעל
baal

How many people swear by the false name of “LORD”? The earth,
everyone has been deceived into worship of the Freemasonry elohim
“God”, the world religion. Moses and Abraham are called “Elohim”
translated “God” usually in the KJV and various misleading
translations of scriptures.

Gen 23:5 And the sons of Ḥĕth answered Aḇraham, saying to him, 6
“Hear us, my master [adonai also translated LORD in KJV]: You are a
Elohim [translated mighty in kjv but also GOD] prince among us. Bury
your dead in the choicest of our burial places. None of us withholds
from you his burial site, from burying your dead.”

Here Abraham is also called adonai and Elohim, Lord and God in KJV
translation, the same is used for “Jesus” in the equivalent Greek text
“Kurious and Theos”. He also has the title of Elohim but they
correctly translate the word "mighty" but is usually translated
“God”. Does Yahweh share his name with Abraham now? Of course not.

YHWH is Elohim of Elohim and to continue to mistranslate the
scriptures for the sake of personal dogma is transgression of Torah.

We have ONE SAVIOR in Yahweh alone who sent us his Elohim and Savior
son Yehoshua.

Hos 2:16 “And it shall be, in that day,” declares [Yahweh] יהוה, “that
you call Me [One Husband] ‘אישׁ,’ and no longer call Me ‘My Baal.’
Hos 2:17 “And I shall remove the names of the Baals from her mouth,
and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

I hope that you are not “utterly plucked up and destroyed”. That you
will listen to the voice of the Prophets and restore the name of
YAHWEH on your heart.

Jer 23:27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their
dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers
have forgotten my name for Baal.
Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he
that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff
to the wheat? saith YAHWEH.
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith YAHWEH; and like a
hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Baal can be translated either “Lord” or “Adonai”, Jews and Christians
alike fail:

Exo 9:16 “And for this reason I have raised you up, in order to show
you My power, and in order to declare My Name in all the earth.


Let’s quote Judaism 101 for an answer:

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm

“With the Temple destroyed and the prohibition on pronouncing The Name
outside of the Temple, pronunciation of the Name fell into disuse.
Scholars passed down knowledge of the correct pronunciation of YHVH
for many generations, but eventually the correct pronunciation was
lost, and we no longer know it with any certainty. We do not know what
vowels were used, or even whether the Vav in the Name was a vowel or a
consonant. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about the
difficulties in pronouncing Hebrew. Some religious scholars suggest
that the Name was pronounced "Yahweh," but others do not find this
pronunciation particularly persuasive. “

Why did the recently published “New International Version” (NIV) of
the Bible fail to use the name of Elohim Yahweh when it appears about
7,000 times in ancient Bible manuscripts?

In response to a person who inquired about this, Edwin H. Palmer,
Th.D., Executive Secretary for the NIV’s committee wrote:

“Here is why we did not: You are right that Jehovah is a distinctive
name for God and ideally we should have used it. But we put 2 1/4
million dollars into this translation and a sure way of throwing that
down the drain is to translate, for example, Psalm 23 as, ‘Yahweh is
my shepherd.’ Immediately, we would have translated for nothing.
Nobody would have used it. Oh, maybe you and a handful [of] others.
But a Christian has to be also wise and practical. We are the victims
of 350 years of the King James tradition. It is far better to get two
million to read it—that is how many have bought it to date—and to
follow the King James, than to have two thousand buy it and have the
correct translation of Yahweh. . . . It was a hard decision, and many
of our translators agree with you.”


Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of YAHWEH is with us?
Lo, certainly the lying pen of the scribes hath made it falsehood. 9
The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have
rejected the word of YAHWEH; and what wisdom is in them?

Ironically, Yahweh name is removed from this passage by the scribes.
The lying pen of the scribes has made it falsehood by corrupting the
name of Yahweh with that of Baal, which means “Lord”. So many people
refuse to acknowledge the set apart name of our Father in Heaven.

Of the many scripture prefaces:

New International Version - Preface

In the Preface of the New International Version they state; "In regard
to the divine name YHWH, commonly referred to as the Tetragrammaton,
the translators adopted the device used in most English versions of
rendering that name as "LORD" in capital letters to distinguish it
from Adonai , another Hebrew word rendered "Lord" for which small
letters are used.

Today's English Version in their Preface says; “Following an ancient
tradition...begun by the first translation of the Hebrew Scriptures
(the Septuagint) and followed by the vast majority of English
translations, the distinctive Hebrew name for God (usually
transliterated …Yahweh), is in this translation represented by "LORD."
When Adonai, normally translated "Lord," occurs preposed to Yahweh,the
combination is rendered by the phrase "Sovereign LORD."

In the Introduction to the Old Testament in the Revised English Bible
this statement is made; “The divine name (YHWH in Hebrew characters)
was probably pronounced 'Yahweh',”

The Moffatt Translation in its Introduction, Page XX says; “Strictly
speaking, this ought to be rendered Yahweh, which is familiar to the
modern readers in the erroneous form of Jehovah.”

The American Translation:

In this translation we have followed the orthodox Jewish tradition and
substituted ‘the Lord’ for the name ‘Yahweh’ and the phrase ‘the Lord
God’ for the phrase ‘the Lord Yahweh.’ In all cases where ‘Lord’ or
‘God’ represents an original ‘Yahweh’ small capitals are employed.

Steven T. Byington, translator of The Bible in Living English (p. 7),
made the following remarks with respect to God’s name and
pronunciation:

The avoidance of pronouncing God’s name by the Jews of latter
times likely resulted from a misunderstanding of one of the “Ten
Words” or “Ten Commandments,” “Thou shall not take the name of the
LORD [Jehovah] thy God in vain.” (Exodus 20:7, KJV). As one source
commented:

Whenever readers came to the word YHWH, they read adonai [‘lord’],
lest they should ‘blaspheme’ God by pronouncing his name out loud.
Never did God Himself require them to takes such measures, but that is
how they interpreted Exodus 20:7... In order to ensure that they would
not take his name in vain, they simply refused to speak His name at
all. It is hard to imagine that God intended such an extreme position,
considering the fact that his name occurs 6,823 [or 6,828] times in
the Old Testament. Furthermore, God inspired a Psalmist to say that he
would call on ‘the name of [Jehovah]” in response to His goodness:
Psalm 116:13, 17 (13) I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on
the name of [Jehovah] (17) I will sacrifice a thank offering to you
and call on the name of [Jehovah].’

Unger’s Bible Dictionary, p. 1177 says -" Yahweh (ya' we). The Hebrew
tetragrammation (YHWH) traditionally pronounced Jehovah is now known
to be correctly vocalized Yahweh. New inscriptional evidence from the
second and first millennia B.C. point toward this fact...."

Isa 26:13 . YahwehH3068 . 'elohiymH430 .
'adonaiH113 .zuwlahH2108 . . .baalH1166 . . . . . badH905 . . .
zakarH2142 . . shemH8034

Isa 26:13 O Yahweh our Elohim [translated god], other masters [LORDS]
besides You have had rule [Baal] over us; only in You do we make
mention of Your Name.

> The fact is that the prophets referred to YHWH called Him both Adonai
> and Elohim. And yes, Abraham was called adonai and Moses was as
> elohim to Pharaoh. Sounds like you have some theology to adjust. You
> consider sharing the same name or title as sharing the glory. Deal
> with it.

Ah, but ... YAHWEH knew beforehand that men would play games with his
name. Abraham wasn't just called adonai, he was called elohim in the
same verse and that's “LORD GOD”. This same title in the Greek is
used with Yehoshua. People confuse Yehoshua with YAHWEH and it's this
lack of clarity that you are attempting to promote. You are again
dodging the issue of removing the name. You said, "The fact is that
the prophets referred to YHWH called Him both Adonai and Elohim."

What you didn't say is that the prophets NEVER excluded his name as 99
percent of all scriptures do these days and as you normally do. Since
both Abraham and Yehoshua and Elohim Yahweh EL Shaddai have similar
titles the only thing that does set apart the Almighty is his name
that you continue to argue is justified in removal of which you again
failed to find any scriptural support to continue.

In fact... I have scriptural support that says not to call YAHWEH by
anything but his name.

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the
name of YAHWEH shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem
shall be deliverance, as YAHWEH hath said, and in the remnant whom
YAHWEH shall call.

It doesn't say all who call on adonai, all who call on baal, all who
call on elohim... THREE times it tells us to call on the name of
YAHWEH. Is it your desire that men not be saved?
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Isa 42:8 I am YAHWEH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to
another, neither my praise to graven images.

There is only ONE.

Mar 12:29 And Yehoshua answered him, The first of all the commandments
is, Hear, O Israel; YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.

Here we have a direct quote of Deuteronomy so that we can have no
doubt exactly what is said in the Hebrew:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: YAHWEH is our Elohim, YAHWEH is one:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love YAHWEH thy Elohim with all thine heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Can we have any doubt that Yehoshua made known the name of YAHWEH, his
Father’s name.

Exo 3:15 And Elohim said further to Mosheh, “Thus you are to say to
the children of Yisrael, YAHWEH Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of
Aḇraham, the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Yaaqoḇ, has sent
me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My remembrance to all
generations.’

This is the ONLY name ever given.

Act 2:21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of
Yahweh shall be saved.’

One of the names of Baal was G-d.

H1409

גּד
Gawd;g-d

A variation of H1409; Fortune, a Babylonian deity: - that troop.

For some reason it’s translated “that troop” in the KJV. But if we
look at the “variation”:

Notice first that there is NO difference between the two words
characters in Hebrew. Gawd is pronounced god.

Isa 65:11 “But you are those who forsake YAHWEH, who forget My set-
apart mountain, who prepare a table for G-d, and who fill a drink
offering for Meni.

This is the ONLY listing for gawd of furtune in the entire scriptures.
So, next I figure I’ll look into Baal Gad.

H1171
בּעל גּד
ba‛al gd
bah'-al gawd
From H1168 and H1409; Lord of Fortune; Baal G-d, a place in Syria: -
Baal-gad.

Notice again... same characters for Gawd. It also confirms again that
Baal, means “Lord”. Interesting that so many treat this name as if
it’s sacred and type G-d. When you consider the fact that Hebrew
doesn’t have vowels, G-d is exactly what is written. Notice that the
name gawd is in fact Gad as recorded as H1409.

Baal’s name is what the world considers a sacred name! No wonder it
says, “In God we trust” on all the money in the United States.

Jos 11:17 from Mount Ḥalaq that goes up to Sĕʽir, and as far as Baʽal
Gaḏ in the Valley of Leḇanon below Mount Ḥermon. And he captured
all their sovereigns, and smote them and killed them.
Jos 11:18 Yehoshua fought with all those sovereigns for a long time.

Yehoshua is also the name of the Messiah! (Zec 6 11-12)


If you would like to comment on this, feel free to add them to this
web page.

Shalom,
*´¨)
¸.•´ ¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.• (Snow(.¸.•*´¨)

If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is
really true, there would be little hope of advance.
Orville Wright


If history is any indication, all truths will eventually turn out to
be false.
Dean Kamen

__,
.-'_-'`
.' {`
.-'````'-. .-'``'.
.'(0) '._/ _.-. `\
} '. )) _<` )` |
`-.,\'.\_,.-\` \`---; .' /
) ) '-. '--:
( ' ( ) '. \
'. ) .'( / )
)/ ( '. /
'._( ) .'
gs ( (
`-.

[Linda Lee]

>
> Mat 22:44
>
> (KJVR)  The NAME said unto my Name, Sit thou on my right hand, till I
> make thine enemies thy footstool?
>
> (Translit+) . kuriosG2962 epoG2036 . . kuriosG2962
>
> Now, the Greek text says one thing but this is quoting Psalm 110:1
> which in the KJV reads:
> Psa 110:1  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
> until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
>
> Nothing really in the readers mind tips them off to anything until…
> You restore the name of Yahweh.
>
> Psa 110:1 YAHWEH said unto my Master, Sit thou at my right hand, until
> I make thine enemies thy footstool.
> Mat 22:44 Yahweh said to my Master, “Sit at My right hand, until I
> make Your enemies a footstool of Your feet” ’?

David used the phrase "my Lord" only three times (3X) throughout the
Psalms, and it always referred to YHWH:

David only had ONE Lord (Master), and that was YHWH. David said who
his Lord was in Psa. 16:2 and Psa. 35:23; David said his Lord was
YHWH, and David's Lord remained the same in Psa. 110:1 & 5 (both
verses refer to the same Lord).


Psa 16:1 Michtam of David. Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put
my trust.
Psa 16:2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD [YHWH], Thou art my
Lord [ADONAY]: my goodness extendeth not to thee;


Psa 35:23, "Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my
cause, my God and my Lord [Adonay]."



Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD [YHWH] said unto my Lord
[ADON] , Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy
footstool.
Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the
beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew
of thy youth.
Psa 110:4 The LORD [YHWH] hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a
priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psa 110:5 The Lord [ADONAY] at thy right hand shall strike through
kings in the day of his wrath.

[NOTE THIS ADONAY/Lord IN VERSE 5 IS THE SAME AS THE ADON/Lord IN
VERSE 1]


Lord in Psa. 110:1/ADON:
Heb. 113
אדן אדון
'âdôn 'âdôn
aw-done', aw-done'
From an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, that is, controller
(human or divine): - translated in the KJV as lord, master, owner.


Lord in Psa. 110:5/ADONAY:
Heb. 136
אדני
'ădônây
ad-o-noy'
An __emphatic form of Heb. 113;__ the Lord (used as a proper name of
God only): - translated in the KJV as (my) Lord.

[Linda Lee]

On May 25, 6:31 am, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> On Sat, 25 May 2013 09:56:50 +0000
> Message-ID: <b539c728-52b9-4c0a...@a9g2000pbq.googlegroups.com>
>

> Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
> <snip previous haders>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> IQN wrote:
> > By the way, I checked up on your sect.
> > You are outside of mainline Messianic beliefs.
> Snow wrote:
> > I have my own unique beliefs.
> IQN wrote:
> > [John 1:4-5]
> > 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
> > 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness
> > comprehended it not.
> Snow wrote:
> > Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah a light, And
> > reproofs of discipline a way of life,
>
> > You seem to think I would disagree with John? I just happen to know
> > what that light is.. do you? Without the Torah, you are in darkness.
>
> The light, that John spoke of, is not the Torah.

Words confuse him; he misinterprets _everything,_ so you're fighting a
losing battle; his misconceptions are endless.

The Messiah, not the Torah, is "the true Light" (John 1:9) AND "the
Truth" (John 1:17), and Matt. 7:12 ("all things whatsoever ye would

that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law

and the prophets") is not an endorsement of following all the commands
in the old covenant of the law of Moses; it refers to the law of God
written on the hearts of believers under the new covenant.


No, we cannot replace every instance of the word Light/light in John
One with the word Torah or law...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the LIGHT of men.
Joh 1:5 And the LIGHT shineth in darkness; and the darkness
comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the LIGHT,
that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that LIGHT, but was sent to bear witness of that
LIGHT.
Joh 1:9 That was the TRUE LIGHT, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the
world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of
whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he
was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for
grace.
Joh 1:17 For THE LAW WAS GIVEN BY MOSES, __BUT GRACE and TRUTH CAME
BY JESUS CHRIST.__



BUT LET'S TRY REPLACING THE WORD "LIGHT" WITH THE WORD "TORAH" (along
with the pronouns referring to the Light) HERE IN JOHN CHAPTER ONE
(WHERE, IN JOHN 1:17, THE "GRACE AND TRUTH" OF CHRIST, WHO IS "the
TRUE Light", IS EVEN _CONTRASTED WITH_ "THE LAW ...GIVEN BY
MOSES" (i.e. the TORAH):

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any
thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the TORAH of men.
Joh 1:5 And the TORAH shineth in darkness; and the darkness
comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the TORAH,
that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was NOT that TORAH, but was sent to bear witness of that
TORAH.
Joh 1:9 That was the true TORAH, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world.
Joh 1:10 He [Torah] was in the world, and the world was made by him
[Torah], and the world knew him [Torah] not.
Joh 1:11 He [Torah] came unto his own, and his [Torah's] own received
him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him [Torah], to them gave he power
to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we
beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of
whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he
was before me.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for
grace.
Joh 1:17 For THE LAW WAS GIVEN BY MOSES, __BUT GRACE and TRUTH CAME
BY JESUS CHRIST.__




Gee, I wonder why The Scriptures 1998 didn't explain that John meant
Torah when he said "light" in John Chapter One? Likely because that
misconception is unique to Snowjob.

[The Scriptures 1998]
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim,
and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3 All came to be through Him,1 and without Him not even one
came to be that came to be. Footnote: 1Eph. 3:9, Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2,
Heb. 11:3, 2 Peter 3:5, Ps. 33:6.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has
not overcome it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from Elohim, whose name was Yoḥanan.
Joh 1:7 This one came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,
that all might believe through him.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but that he might bear witness of that
Light.
Joh 1:9 He was the true Light, which enlightens every man, coming
into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world came to be through Him,
and the world did not know Him.
Joh 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority
to become children of Elohim, TO THOSE BELIEVING IN His Name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the desire of flesh nor
of the desire of man, but of Elohim.
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and pitched His tent1 among us,
and we saw His esteem, esteem as of an only brought-forth of a father,
complete in favour and truth. Footnote: 1An indication that His birth
was during the Festival of Booths.
Joh 1:15 Yoḥanan bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This
was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has become before me,
because He was before me.’ ”
Joh 1:16 And out of His completeness we all did receive, and favour
upon favour,
Joh 1:17 for THE TORAH WAS GIVEN THROUGH MOSHEH – THE FAVOR AND THE
TRUTH CAME THROUGH יהושע MESSIAH.


The Lamb/Christ - the light of New Jerusalem:
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and
the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon,
to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and THE LAMB IS
THE LIGHT thereof.


CHRIST REFERRING TO HIMSELF AS "THE LIGHT":

John 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light
of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but
shall have the light of life."

John 9:5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the
world."

John 12:35 "Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the
light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon
you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth."

John 12:36 "While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be
the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did
hide himself from them."

John 12:46 "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever
believeth on ME should not abide in darkness."

[Linda Lee]

Prov. 30:4 "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath
gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a
garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? WHAT IS HIS
NAME, and WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell?"

GOD'S NAME:
YHWH (translated Jehovah and the LORD in the KJV)
Heb. 3068
יהוה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From Heb. 1961 [hayah]; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah,
Jewish national name of God.


GOD'S NAME:
YAHH (translated "Jah" in the KJV)
Heb. 3050
יהּ
yâhh
yaw
Contracted for Heb. 3068 [YHWH], and meaning the same; Jah, the sacred
name


GOD'S SON'S NAME:
YAHASHUA` - LITERALLY YAHH the Saviour.

[Linda Lee]

Nominally maybe...

>
> Interesting.
> Snow wrote:
> > I want to try and explain things to you that I expect
> > you to examine for yourself.
>
> No need - I have already, thanks.
>
> Snow wrote:
> > Imagine if somebody handed you the New Testament and
> > the name of Jesus Christ wasn't in it.
>
> But, it's not That way.
>
> AND, I know the difference between LORD and Lord.
> AND, every language has a different name.
> AND, every language knows the difference.
> AND, God has many names.
> AND, God knows the heart.

Yes. I've had miraculous answers to fervent prayer using the
Messiah's English name of Jesus (when I knew no other name for him)
and prayer using his Hebrew name of Yahashua` - once each.

It seems the Messiah gave Saul (Paul) his name in the Hebrew language:
Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, __I heard a
voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue,__ Saul, Saul,
why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the
pricks.
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus
whom thou persecutest.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

Snow,

With all that information that you posted...

1) It's very hard to know if it is you, that is speaking, or
whoever wrote the webpage information that you copied
from.

2) GoogleGroup code for punctuation, is very annoying
when reading what you are trying to say.

Here is an example of what it looks like in a news reader
that is not using GoogleGroups:

------------
> Hos 2:16 =E2=80=9CAnd it shall be, in that day,=E2=80=9D declares [Yahweh] =
> =D7=99=D7=94=D7=95=D7=94, =E2=80=9Cthat
> you call Me [One Husband] =E2=80=98=D7=90=D7=99=D7=A9=D7=81,=E2=80=99 and n=
> o longer call Me =E2=80=98My Baal.=E2=80=99
> Hos 2:17 =E2=80=9CAnd I shall remove the names of the Baals from her mouth,

> and they shall no more be remembered by their name.

------------


I know... it's not your fault. It's Googles.

But...

Would you spend the time, reading through a large
post of information like THAT?

When usenet was set up, it was determined by
the developers, not to change any character
that was typed into any post.

Google, decided to ignore it. Bad choice, on their part.

GoogleGroup's is web based -- usenet is not.

In the future, if you can, try to avoid using anything
for punctuation, except: commas, colons, periods and
question marks. No colors, bold or italic, either.

Just write as plain as you can, please.

Thanks.

[Snow]

On May 26, 9:28 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> Snow,
>
> With all that information that you posted...
>
> 1) It's very hard to know if it is you, that is speaking, or
> whoever wrote the webpage information that you copied
> from.
>
> 2) GoogleGroup code for punctuation, is very annoying
> when reading what you are trying to say.
>
> Here is an example of what it looks like in a news reader
> that is not using GoogleGroups:
>
> ------------> Hos 2:16 =E2=80=9CAnd it shall be, in that day,=E2=80=9D declares [Yahweh] =

Actually, it's not punctuation at all, it's Hebrew that looks so
unusual. Many times there is such a discussion about how to translate
the sacred name, I simply don't bother to translate it and just put it
up in Hebrew. It's the Messianic tradition of keeping the name of the
creator in tact so that it removes confusion.

http://www.isr-messianic.org/

This is the version of scriptures that I use, just in case you care to
investigate it. Anyways, sorry if it looked so bad but I did right
all that myself and I'm sorry that it looked so messy on your end. If
it helps, I mainly wanted you to see that almost all the Christian
versions speak to removing the name of YAHWEH.

Putting the name back gives you a whole new perspective. I do hope
you investigate the matter for yourself. Take care and be blessed.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Sun, 26 May 2013 12:56:21 +0000
Message-ID: <145f0e2d-3020-47a0...@g5g2000pbp.googlegroups.com>
Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:

As soon as I posted that reply, I knew Google would re-convert it.
So, we'll try it again by replacing the equals sign with a dash.

------------
> Hos 2:16 -E2-80-9CAnd it shall be, in that day,-E2-80-9D declares [Yahweh] -
> -D7-99-D7-94-D7-95-D7-94, -E2-80-9Cthat
> you call Me [One Husband] -E2-80-98-D7-90-D7-99-D7-A9-D7-81,-E2-80-99 and n-
> o longer call Me -E2-80-98My Baal.-E2-80-99
> Hos 2:17 -E2-80-9CAnd I shall remove the names of the Baals from her mouth,

> and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
------------

There was 42 replacements by the way.

Now, something like what you described, will work in a web based
forum - but, not on usenet. The best you can do from [GoogleGroups
to usenet], (which it is: [usenet], that you are using to communicate
via GoogleGroups), is give a link to a web site.

Which you did, here: http://www.isr-messianic.org/

And.. then describe what it is to look for, and where.

Thanks.

---



By the way,

there is no point in continuing this discourse. I know where it leads.

The Bible, whether KJV or others, decided to use "lord" for all 3.

And, I certainly understand why. Most translators were scared
to death, that existed a chance, that God's name would be
blasphemed in some manner, or in some way.

One must consider the Culture and Time, the KJV was written.

I can't say, I blame them.

So... they decided to use designation "Titles" instead,
Given the Context of what was written.


1) LORD --> The CREATOR, of Heaven and Earth.

2) Lord --> The Son of the CREATOR.

3) lord --> Anyone lower than the first two.


Now...

You may have an issue with it. I don't.

The Lamb of God, will make everything right,
in the end. Of this, I have no doubt.

And, God knows if a soul, has His light.

And, God knows the heart of His children.

[Linda Lee]

On May 24, 3:29 pm, Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> On May 25, 3:44 am, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>

> > Paul taught the SAME GOSPEL that is
> > taught elsewhere in the New Testament – CHRIST'S GOSPEL; those who
> > think otherwise, either don't understand Christ's words, OR they don't
> > understand Paul's words, OR THEY UNDERSTAND NEITHER.
>

> Thanks for sharing Linda. All of this doesn't do a thing to reconcile
> his outright lies... Lies you use to understand. You may not like it
> but he is still a Pharisee and by extension, his teachings create more
> every moment.
>
> Act 23:6 Paul .. cried out in the council, "Men and brethren, I am a
> Pharisee"
>
> This is your 'converted' Christians own words...

You really should have kept reading; as Paul confessed to his
conversion when he said the following from Acts 24:14-15. And do not
be confused; "the way which they call heresy" ("they" being the
Pharisees and Sadducees who were accosting Paul in Acts 23 and were
accusing him before the priests, elders, and governor in Acts 24) was
what we call Christianity, and he was saying "the way" (Christianity)
was valid and is verified by the prophesies in the 5 books of Moses
(commonly called "the law") and the books of the prophets:

The Way the Jews called heresy = Christianity = sect of the Nazarenes.

Acts 24:5 "For we have found this man [Paul] a pestilent fellow, and
a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a
ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes".

The "NAZARENES" was a name the Jews (both the Pharisees and Sadducees)
then applied to followers of Christ the Nazarene.

Matt. 2:23 "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it
might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be
called a Nazarene."


Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after THE WAY WHICH THEY
CALL HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things
which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves [the
Pharisees] also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead,
both of the just and unjust.



Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover
of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader
of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Act 24:6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we
took, and would have judged according to our law.
Act 24:7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great
violence took him away out of our hands,
Act 24:8 Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of
whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we
accuse him.
Act 24:9 And the Jews also assented, saying that these things were
so.
Act 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to
speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years
a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
Act 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but
twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
Act 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any
man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in
the city:
Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse
me.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they
call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things
which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and
unjust.


You have E-Sword. Click on the C icon for Chapter notes under Clarke's
commentary in E-Sword; that will explain chapters 21-24 briefly to
you.

This whole bruhaha began in Acts 21:27 when a large crowd of Jews were
about to kill Paul, and Roman soldiers intervened in the riot, and
Paul spoke to their captain and to the crowd (Acts 21:37ff), and
explained how he had persecuted the Christians, and how then Christ
had appeared to him and sent him to preach. The chief captain
determined to beat him, but when he found out he was a Roman citizen
as well as a Jew, he delivered Paul before the council of Jews, the
Sanhedrin (Act 22:29-30), and that did not go at all well as they also
determined to murder him, and when the chief captain learned of their
plans, he decided to deliver Paul before the governor Felix (Acts
23:33). Then in Acts 24, the Sanhedrin came to accuse him before
Felix, and that is when Paul explained he was a member of the sect the
Jews called heresy, the Nazarenes, i.e. Christianity.

>
> I'm fine with you
> following him but please don't assume that I need to follow him.

Do what you please. I do not 'follow' Paul, but you did recently say
that I'd taught you about Paul, so I certainly feel free to address
your misconceptions about Paul. And as you'll someday realize, this
is a discussion group, and unless you're ignored, your posts will
likely be discussed, and many will disagree with you no matter what
your position.

> Mar 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the

> of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

As Matthew explained, it was the doctrines of the Pharisees (and
Sadducees and Herodians) Christ warned against, and they certainly
didn't teach that Christ was God as you claim only Paul taught:

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to
you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the
Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of
the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the
Sadducees.

"Mark 8:15
And he charged them,.... When they were in the ship, and had just
recollected themselves, that they had took no care to bring any
provisions with them:

saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees; and of the
leaven of Herod: in Matthew, instead of "the leaven of Herod", it is
read, "the leaven of the Sadducees": which are either the same, Herod
and his courtiers being Sadducees, or favourers of them; or the
Sadducees being sticklers for Herod, and his government, which the
Pharisees had no good opinion of; or else distinct from one another;
and so Christ cautions against the doctrines of the Pharisees, which
regarded the traditions of the elders, and of the Sadducees,
concerning the resurrection, and of the Herodians, who thought Herod
to be the Messiah; and against the unreasonable request and demand of
them all to have a sign from heaven, in proof of his own Messiahship;
See Gill on Mat_16:6." - John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible.

>
> 2Co 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
> crafty, I caught you with guile.
>
> Who is 'CRAFTY" that you think I need to understand him? Look how
> Crafty the serpent is... even has you questioning your own logic.
>

Many others besides the serpent, including yourself, are crafty.

[Snow]

On May 27, 1:06 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:

> > 2Co 12:16  But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
> > crafty, I caught you with guile.
>
> > Who is 'CRAFTY" that you think I need to understand him?  Look how
> > Crafty the serpent is... even has you questioning your own logic.
>
> Many others besides the serpent, including yourself, are crafty.

Jas 4:11 Brothers, do not speak against one another. He that speaks
against a brother and judges his brother, speaks against Torah and
judges Torah. And if you judge Torah, you are not a doer of Torah but
a judge.
Jas 4:12 There is one Lawgiver and Judge, who is able to save and to
destroy. Who are you to judge another?

[Linda Lee]

On May 26, 11:44 pm, Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> On May 27, 1:06 pm, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > > 2Co 12:16  But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being
> > > crafty, I caught you with guile.

ISV:
2Co 12:15 I will be very glad to spend my money and myself for you.
Do you love me less because I love you so much?
2Co 12:16 Granting that I have not been a burden to you, was I a
clever schemer who trapped you by some trick?
2Co 12:17 I did not take advantage of you through any of the men I
sent you, did I?
2Co 12:18 I encouraged Titus to visit you, and I sent along with him
the brother you know so well. Titus didn't take advantage of you, did
he? We conducted ourselves with the same spirit, didn't we? We took
the very same steps, didn't we?

>
> > > Who is 'CRAFTY" that you think I need to understand him? Look how
> > > Crafty the serpent is... even has you questioning your own logic.
>
> > Many others besides the serpent, including yourself, are crafty.

Crafty - Gk. 3835
panourgos
pan-oor'-gos
From G3956 and G2041; all working, that is, adroit (shrewd).

[Linda Lee]

He has a lot of issues, and is very thick-skulled.

[Linda Lee]

On May 25, 11:16 am, Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> On May 25, 11:09 pm, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
>
> It's always your choice.
>
> Pro 30:4 Who has gone up to the heavens and come down? Who has
> gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment?
> Who established all the ends of the earth? What is His Name, AND what
> is His Son’s Name, If you know it?
>
> Since people continue with man’s tradition of hiding and removing his
> name from scriptures, true believers must know what they say.
>
> Jer 12:16 And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the
> ways of my people, to swear by my name, YAHWEH liveth; as they taught
> my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of
> my people.
> Jer 12:17 But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and
> destroy that nation, saith YAHWEH.
>
> Baal is translated LORD as shown here:
>
> Isa 16:8   the lord1167 of the heathen1471
> H1167
> בּעל
> baal
>
> How many people swear by the false name of “LORD”?
>

By that reasoning, you're also calling the Messiah baal when you call
him "Master":

Baal - Heb. 1167
בּעל
ba‛al
bah'-al
From H1166; A MASTER; hence a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often
used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense.

Baal - Heb. 1168
בּעל
ba‛al
bah'-al
The SAME AS Heb. 1167; Baal, a Phoenician deity

[Snow]

On May 28, 6:30 am, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:

> > How many people swear by the false name of “LORD”?
>
> By that reasoning, you're also calling the Messiah baal when you call
> him "Master":
>

True but master promotes a better understanding without promoting
confusion or promoting the idea of a monarchy. Lord after all is a
title that is granted by Kings to subjects. An example of this is the
Lord Mayor of London or Lord Byron the famous poet. Be thou the
rainbow.. :)

[Linda Lee]

On May 27, 7:29 pm, Snow <snowpheo...@eck.net.au> wrote:
> On May 28, 6:30 am, Linda Lee <lindagirl...@juno.com> wrote:
>
> > > How many people swear by the false name of “LORD”?
>
> > By that reasoning, you're also calling the Messiah baal when you call
> > him "Master":
>
> True but master promotes a better understanding without promoting
> confusion or promoting the idea of a monarchy.  Lord after all is a
> title that is granted by Kings to subjects.

Baal actually means master, but "master "promotes a better
understanding" - what bull. Even where Christ is called Master, the
Greek words translated Master means teacher and guide or instructor.
The English called their teachers 'master'; hence, the translation in
the KJV.


Baal

Heb. 1168
בּעל
ba‛al
bah'-al

The same as Heb. 1167; Baal, a Phoenician deity:


Baal

Heb. 1167
בּעל
ba‛al
bah'-al

From H1166; a master; hence a husband, or (figuratively) owner (often

used with another noun in modifications of this latter sense


>

[Snow]

Thanks, I knew. Why do you assume I must think like you?

[Up from the Abyss]

"vince garcia" wrote:
> Snow wrote:
> >
> > Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
> > Footnote: The seventh day of the week, the weekly Sabbath,
> > was observed before the Ten Words were given on Mt. Sinai.
> >
> > What a shame that you don't understand that because of your
> > tradition.
>
> Show me every command in the NT epistles for me to keep the
> sabbath. Start at Romans and move forward.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people
of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also
rested from his works, as God did from his. 11 Let us therefore
give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same
example of disobedience.

[Up from the Abyss]

iqnews wrote:
> Snow wrote:
> >
> > So... naturally, you are going to tell me that all Christians
> > need to be guarding the Ten Commandments, including
> > the Sabbath... right?
>
> The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's
> chosen people, to keep and observe. It was not given
> to the Gentiles.

Isa 56:6 Also the foreigners that join themselves to YHVH,
to minister unto him, and to love the name of YHVH, to be
his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from
profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will
I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices
shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be
called a house of prayer for all peoples. 8 The Lord YHVH,
who gathereth the outcasts of Israel, saith, Yet will I gather
others to him, besides his own that are gathered.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Thu, 30 May 2013 15:35:44 -0700
Message-ID: <Z-2dnRGeV8rcSTrM...@earthlink.com>

"Up from the Abyss" <U...@Abyss.net> wrote:

>
>
> iqnews wrote:
> > Snow wrote:
> > >
> > > So... naturally, you are going to tell me that all Christians
> > > need to be guarding the Ten Commandments, including
> > > the Sabbath... right?
> >
> > The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's
> > chosen people, to keep and observe. It was not given
> > to the Gentiles.


> Isa 56:6 Also the foreigners that join themselves to YHVH,
> to minister unto him, and to love the name of YHVH, to be
> his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from
> profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will
> I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
> house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices
> shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be
> called a house of prayer for all peoples. 8 The Lord YHVH,
> who gathereth the outcasts of Israel, saith, Yet will I gather
> others to him, besides his own that are gathered.

I stand by my statement as "the primary intention".

There were amendment's...

ie:
If a Gentile visited Jerusalem --
Upon leaving, they were under no such ordinance's or law's.

To clarify, Gentiles that came and went.
ie: visiting, merchants, just passing thru, etc.

> Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the
> people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath
> himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.
> 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest,
> that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.

These are [things to come]; see below.



Subject: The New Testament in regard to the Gentile's:

Context and Scope: To the Gentile's, ca. 30-70 AD.

---
[Acts 15:19-20]
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them,
which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: <---

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things
strangled, and from blood.
---


Backup - keeping in context with the verses above...

---
I Jn 5:16
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,
he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto
death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray
for it.

[I Jn 5:21]
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
---


Continuing...

---
Acts [15:24]
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went
out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your
souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: <---
to whom we gave no such commandment: <---

[Acts 15:28-29]
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; <---

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood,
and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if
ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

[Col 2:13-17]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision
of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having
forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out
of the way, nailing it to his cross; <---

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made
a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of
the sabbath days: <---

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; <---
but the body is of Christ. <---
---


To love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as
yourself, Requires more of us than the Ten Commandment's.

For instance:
Do you harbor discord, anger, revenge, ill will of your brother?
I'm sure the list is veery long.

On an individual level, it comes to this...
The righteousness of your heart, toward God and your neighbor.

At the highest level...
That righteousness is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

[Up from the Abyss]

iqnews wrote:
> Up from the Abyss wrote:

> > iqnews wrote:
> > >
> > > The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's
> > > chosen people, to keep and observe. It was not given
> > > to the Gentiles.
> >
> > Isa 56:6 Also the foreigners that join themselves to YHVH,
> > to minister unto him, and to love the name of YHVH, to be
> > his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from
> > profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will
> > I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
> > house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices
> > shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be
> > called a house of prayer for all peoples. 8 The Lord YHVH,
> > who gathereth the outcasts of Israel, saith, Yet will I gather
> > others to him, besides his own that are gathered.
>
> I stand by my statement as "the primary intention".
>
> There were amendment's...
>
> ie:
> If a Gentile visited Jerusalem --
> Upon leaving, they were under no such ordinance's or law's.

Ummm, you may want to reread the above.

It does not say those "visitors" to Yerushalaim. It says, those
who *join* themselves to YHVH, to love Him, to keep the
covenant.

Are you not also through Jesus joined unto YHVH?
To love Him?

> To clarify, Gentiles that came and went.
> ie: visiting, merchants, just passing thru, etc.

Again, that is *not* what the above is referring unto.

> > Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the
> > people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest hath
> > himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.
> > 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest,
> > that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
>
> These are [things to come]; see below.

When are they to come?

Do you see any indication of it being future tense within
the verbs?

> Subject: The New Testament in regard to the Gentile's:
>
> Context and Scope: To the Gentile's, ca. 30-70 AD.
>
> ---
> [Acts 15:19-20]
> 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them,
> which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: <---
>
> 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from
> pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things
> strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every
city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues
every sabbath.

What does that mean?

Where did the "Gentiles" go to hear the Word of YHVH?

What Scriptures did they learn from?

> Backup - keeping in context with the verses above...
>
> ---
> I Jn 5:16
> 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,
> he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto
> death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray
> for it.
>
> [I Jn 5:21]
> 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Expound upon v16.

> Continuing...
>
> ---
> Acts [15:24]
> 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went
> out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your
> souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: <---
> to whom we gave no such commandment: <---

Act 15:1 And certain men came down from Judaea and taught
the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom
of Moses, ***ye cannot be saved.***

Which was the crux of this.

> [Acts 15:28-29]
> 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
> upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; <---
>
> 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood,
> and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if
> ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, they needed to know and learn nothing more of their "God"?

What "Scriptures" were they going unto? [cf Acts 17:11]

<snip>

> To love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as
> yourself, Requires more of us than the Ten Commandment's.

Indeed. So, what is it to love "God" with all your heart?

What does it require? How does one do so?

Can you answer that without invoking the second great
command or anything that would covered by the second
great command.

<snip>

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Fri, 31 May 2013 08:01:06 -0700
Message-ID: <ZaydneWe5sWpJjXM...@earthlink.com>

"Up from the Abyss" <U...@Abyss.net> wrote:

>
>

> iqnews wrote:
> > Up from the Abyss wrote:
> > > iqnews wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Sabbath was given to the Hebrews only, as God's
> > > > chosen people, to keep and observe. It was not given
> > > > to the Gentiles.
> > >
> > > Isa 56:6 Also the foreigners that join themselves to YHVH,
> > > to minister unto him, and to love the name of YHVH, to be
> > > his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from
> > > profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant; 7 even them will
> > > I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my
> > > house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices
> > > shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be
> > > called a house of prayer for all peoples. 8 The Lord YHVH,
> > > who gathereth the outcasts of Israel, saith, Yet will I gather
> > > others to him, besides his own that are gathered.
> >
> > I stand by my statement as "the primary intention".
> >
> > There were amendment's...
> >
> > ie:
> > If a Gentile visited Jerusalem --
> > Upon leaving, they were under no such ordinance's or law's.
>
> Ummm, you may want to reread the above.

I read it.

---

There was a time when I was angry with God, and then
went my own way. It's not a good place to be.

[Up from the Abyss]

Understood.

[Linda Lee]

OUR REST IS IN CHRIST.


CHRIST SAID:
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man
knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father,
save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I
WILL GIVE YOU REST.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and
lowly in heart: and YE SHALL FIND REST UNTO YOUR SOULS.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.



Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of
ENTERING INTO HIS REST, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Heb 4:2 FOR UNTO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED, as well as unto them:
but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith
in them that heard it.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As
I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although
the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this
wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein,
and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of
unbelief:
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day,
after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice,
harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8 For if Jesus [i.e. JOSHUA, son of Nun] had given them rest,
then would he [God] not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, HE HATH ALSO CEASED
FROM HIS OWN WORKS, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any
man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than
any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and
spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the
thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his
sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with
whom we have to do.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed
into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our
profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with
the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as
we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that
we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


"Hebrews 4:8 - For if Jesus - Margin, “That is, Joshua.” The Syriac
renders it, “Joshua the son of Nun.” “Jesus” is the Greek mode of
writing “Joshua,” and there can be no doubt that Joshua is here
intended. The object is to prove that Joshua did ”not” give the people
of God such a rest as to make it improper to speak of a “rest” after
that time. “If Joshua had given them a complete and final rest; if by
his conducting them to the promised land all had been done which had
been contemplated by the promise, then it would not have been alluded
to again, as it was in the time of David.” Joshua “did” give a rest in
the promised land; but it was not all which was intended, and it did
not exclude the promise of another and more important rest." - Albert
Barnes' Notes on the Bible.


"Hebrews 4:8 - For if Jesus had given them rest - It is truly
surprising that our translators should have rendered the Ιησους of the
text Jesus, and not Joshua, who is most clearly intended. They must
have known that the יהושע Yehoshua of the Hebrew, which we write
Joshua, is everywhere rendered Ιησους, Jesus, by the Septuagint; and
it is their reading which the apostle follows. It is true the
Septuagint generally write Ιησους Ναυη, or Υἱος Ναυη, Jesus Nave, or
Jesus, son of Nave, for it is thus they translate יהושע בן נון
Yehoshua ben Nun, Joshua the son of Nun; and this is sufficient to
distinguish it from Jesus, son of David. But as Joshua, the captain
general of Israel, is above intended, the word should have been
written Joshua, and not Jesus. One MS., merely to prevent the wrong
application of the name, has Ιησους ὁ του Ναυη, Jesus the son of
Nave. Theodoret has the same in his comment, and one Syriac version
has it in the text. It is Joshua in Coverdale’s Testament, 1535; in
Tindal’s 1548; in that edited by Edmund Becke, 1549; in Richard
Cardmarden’s, Rouen, 1565; several modern translators, Wesley,
Macknight, Wakefield, etc., read Joshua, as does our own in the
margin. What a pity it had not been in the text, as all the smaller
Bibles have no marginal readings, and many simple people are
bewildered with the expression.
The apostle shows that, although Joshua did bring the children of
Israel into the promised land, yet this could not be the intended
rest, because long after this time the Holy Spirit, by David, speaks
of this rest" - Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible.

[Up from the Abyss]

"Linda Lee" wrote:
> iqnews wrote:
> >
>

<snip>

> Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
> for I am meek and lowly in heart: and YE SHALL
> FIND REST UNTO YOUR SOULS.

Jer 6:16 This is what the LORD says:

Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the
ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and
walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.

But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'

<snip>

> Heb 4:2 FOR UNTO US WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED,

Indeed.

> as well as unto them:

Who are the "them" spoken of, and when is it referring to?

> but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed
> with faith in them that heard it.

Why did it not profit them?

> Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest,
> as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter
> into my rest: although the works were finished from the
> foundation of the world.
> Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day
> on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his
> works.

Did "God" rest in Christ, or did "God" rest on the 7th day?

> Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people
> of God.
> Heb 4:10 For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS
> REST, HE HATH ALSO CEASED FROM HIS OWN
> WORKS,

> ***as God did from his.***

[additional emphasis mine]

<snip>

[Sam Taylor]

wrote in message
news:bd23ffb285af40ee9f2f63dcc2f49d11-knmejk$6ur$1...@speranza.aioe.org...


---
[1 Cor 3:1-6]
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
---


No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
......................................................................................................................
Are You saying YOU ARE NOT A Christian? since You Yourself
ignore what Paul taught?
Sam
......................................................................................................................
The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.

And that is how Christian's view the Apostle Paul -- a preacher
of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is it absolutely necessary that You accept the Apostle Paul? No.

The Book of John does a very good job of "showing the way"
of Salvation, which is through Jesus Christ.

---
[John 3:16-18]
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting
life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that
the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

[John 6:35]
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me
shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

[John 6:38]
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him
that sent me.

[John 6:47-51]
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting
life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat
thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: <---
if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: <---
and the bread that I will give is MY FLESH, <---
which I will give for the life of the world. <---
---


Snow, will you also dismiss the Book of John, as a hostile witness?

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 22:27:57 -0700
Message-ID: <zZuyt.58882$O61....@newsfe14.iad>

"Sam Taylor" <cyg...@cncnet.com> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
> news:bd23ffb285af40ee9f2f63dcc2f49d11-knmejk$6ur$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>
>
> ---
> [1 Cor 3:1-6]
> 1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
> but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
>
> 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye
> were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
>
> 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying,
> and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
>
> 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos;
> are ye not carnal?
>
> 5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye
> believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
>
> 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
> ---
>



> No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.


> ................................................................................................

> Are You saying YOU ARE NOT A Christian? since You Yourself
> ignore what Paul taught?
> Sam
> ................................................................................................

No Sam, thats not what I said at all. Did you read the entire post?

[Sam Taylor]

wrote in message
news:7627f5887cbd46c5ae03dfe1a60e8d9d-kqf8ig$rgg$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

..................................................................................................................
Why don't you believe Paul?, Yes but Your doctrines
call Paul a Liar.
Sam
..................................................................................................................

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 11:47:07 -0700
Message-ID: <NGGyt.54212$ny5....@newsfe24.iad>

> ...................................................................................................................

> Why don't you believe Paul?, Yes but Your doctrines
> call Paul a Liar.
> Sam

> ...................................................................................................................


No Sam, I think you are misunderstanding the intent of the original post.

[Terry Cross]

I would say that someone who does not follow Paul is not a Christian.
That includes me. I do not use the word because it would deceive and
confuse people.

In addition, of course, I do not call myself a Christian because to do
so implicitly endorses the Torah and the Pharisees, which Jesus
attacked. "Christ" means the "anointed one," which carries all the
baggage of Judaism. Jesus was not a Jew -- he was a incarnation of the
Creator of all races. Judaism has Jehovah riding around in a box and
hoping one day to live among the Jews! Jehovah is a pitiful degraded image.

I believe Jesus was a rebel against Judaism. He attacked all the major
pillars of Judaism, including Sabbath, Torah, Moses, chattel marriage,
sexism, neighborhood stoning, death penalty, racism, the priesthood, the
Temple, animal sacrifice, and the sanctity of greed.

TCross

[Terry Cross]

Paul contradicts Jesus in many important ways. Paul never repented of
being a Pharisee.

TCross

[Sam Taylor]

wrote in message
news:092b14afcb704879899e0529ecad4b98-kqfd74$ata$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

......................................................................................................................................
it is clear that Paul DID NOT believe in the Trinity.
In fact He started EVERY ONE of His letters with
"Grace and Peace from G-D our Father, AND FROM
the Lord (not LORD) Jesus Christ.
then He wrote this in the Eight Chapter of First
Corinthians, and I quote
"
1 Now concerning the [things] offered to idols, we know that we all have
knowledge.
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he has come to know
nothing yet
as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, this one has been known by Him.
4 Therefore concerning the eating of the things offered to idols,
we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God
but one.
5 For even if they are being called "gods" whether in heaven or on earth
(just as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we
for Him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [are] all things, and through whom
we [live].
7 However, this knowledge is not in all [people]; rather some, with
consciousness of the idol,
until now eat it as [something] offered to idols; and their conscience,
being weak, is defiled.
DON"T BLAME ME, BLAME PAUL!
Love
Sam
.............................................................................................................................................................................

[Linda Lee]

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 8:04:32 PM UTC-4, Sam Taylor wrote:
> wrote in message
>
>
>

> it is clear that Paul DID NOT believe in the Trinity.
>
> In fact He started EVERY ONE of His letters with
>
> "Grace and Peace from G-D our Father, AND FROM
>
> the Lord (not LORD) Jesus Christ.

Paul wrote in I Tim. 3:16, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

[Sam Taylor]

"Linda Lee" wrote in message
news:3dbe4ce5-2066-4872...@googlegroups.com...

On Wednesday, June 26, 2013 8:04:32 PM UTC-4, Sam Taylor wrote:
> wrote in message
>
>
>
> it is clear that Paul DID NOT believe in the Trinity.
>
> In fact He started EVERY ONE of His letters with
>
> "Grace and Peace from G-D our Father, AND FROM
>
> the Lord (not LORD) Jesus Christ.


Paul wrote in I Tim. 3:16, "And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of
angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up
into glory."

......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
The Proper translation is
"
16 And truly great is this mystery of righteousness, d
which was revealed in the flesh, and justified by the Spirit,
and seen of angels, and preached among the peoples,
and believed in the world, and taken up into glory.


16 And without controversy great is the mystery of reverence:
who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,

preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into
glory.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of Holiness;(1)
He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels,
Preached among the(2) nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in
glory.(1)
The word God , in place of He who , rests on no sufficient ancient evidence.
Some ancient authorities read which 2) Or Gentiles )




16 And avowedly great is the secret of devoutness which was manifested in
Flesh, Justified in spirit, seen (By) Messengers, Hearolded among the
Nations
believed in (the) World, Taken up (in) Glory


KIA HOMOOLOGOUMENOS MEGA ESTIN TO TES EUSEBEIAS MUSTERION
THEOS

EPHANEROTHE EN SARKI EDIKAIOTHE EN PNEUMATI OPHTHE AGGALOIS

EKERUCHTHE EN ETHNESIN EPISTEUTHE EN KOSMOS ANEIPHTHE EN
DOXIE
Sam
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 17:04:32 -0700
Message-ID: <rkLyt.65166$Pn4....@newsfe28.iad>

Okay Sam, even though you are off-topic from the original post, I'm still listening.

Before you continue, be advised, that I don't hold to the man-made doctrine of
'the trinity'. I won't put God in a box, constructed by men. It's not very wise.

Your turn...

[Sam Taylor]

wrote in message
news:bb0f39481996486d9d67dfbf1417738d-kqgij6$50b$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

.............................................................................................................................
Paul, is a trip.....Just when You think he is teaching against the
Law..........
He comes out with........."Nay we establish the Law".....and is the Law Sin?
in no way, for without the law I could not recognize sin.......
people read a few verses, and get Paul entirely WRONG.
How many times do you hear Ephesians 2 verses 8&9 and then
they Stop, but verse 10 Sums up what Paul is saying.
most preach Paul entirely out of Context, and have no idea of
what He really taught
Sam
..................................................................................................................................

[Terry Cross]

Paul taught that ALL kings and politicians are put over their subjects
by God. To rebel against the rulers is to rebel against God. Read it
in Romans 13.

That and many other teaspoons of sewage contaminate Paul's letters. And
a teaspoon of sewage in a barrel of wine -- is a barrel of sewage.

TCross

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 23:29:32 -0700
Message-ID: <iZQyt.53612$B82....@newsfe07.iad>

> ..............................................................................................................................

> Paul, is a trip.....Just when You think he is teaching against the
> Law..........
> He comes out with........."Nay we establish the Law".....and is the Law Sin?
> in no way, for without the law I could not recognize sin.......
> people read a few verses, and get Paul entirely WRONG.
> How many times do you hear Ephesians 2 verses 8&9 and then
> they Stop, but verse 10 Sums up what Paul is saying.
> most preach Paul entirely out of Context, and have no idea of
> what He really taught
> Sam

> ...................................................................................................................................


You're right, many do quote him out of context.

Paul was a good teacher. And he was especially good at making his
points to the Gentiles, in a way that even they could understand.

There are a few things that Paul says, that are hard to understand
for some people. But, it is only because they don't understand the
full scope in which he is speaking.

He does so, from a 'righteousness' aspect, while maintaining a
human way of expression. Some people just don't understand it.

Another thing they don't take into consideration is the culture
of that time period -- 2000 years ago.

Alot has changed with culture since then.

I believe a person can be 'too critical' for their own good.

[Terry Cross]

Paul's endorsement of tyranny, sexism, and slavery is not just cultural.
Those are bedrock elements of society, and Paul was miserably wrong.
And right after he relegates women to the status of domestic animals, he
starts boasting that everything he says is from God and you must not
question it. Corinthians 14:34.

If Paul were running the churches today, American Christians would be in
burkas. If you don't wear a burka, you are insincere endorsing Paul.

TCross

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 03:53:27 -0700
Message-ID: <kqh5iq$qv5$1...@speranza.aioe.org>
Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip previous dialog>

Sam wrote:
> Paul, is a trip.....Just when You think he is teaching against the
> Law..........
> He comes out with........."Nay we establish the Law".....and is the Law Sin?
> in no way, for without the law I could not recognize sin.......
> people read a few verses, and get Paul entirely WRONG.
> How many times do you hear Ephesians 2 verses 8&9 and then
> they Stop, but verse 10 Sums up what Paul is saying.
> most preach Paul entirely out of Context, and have no idea of
> what He really taught
> Sam

IQN wrote:
> You're right, many do quote him out of context.
>
> Paul was a good teacher. And he was especially good at making his
> points to the Gentiles, in a way that even they could understand.
>
> There are a few things that Paul says, that are hard to understand
> for some people. But, it is only because they don't understand the
> full scope in which he is speaking.
>
> He does so, from a 'righteousness' aspect, while maintaining a
> human way of expression. Some people just don't understand it.
>
> Another thing they don't take into consideration is the culture
> of that time period -- 2000 years ago.
>
> Alot has changed with culture since then.
>
> I believe a person can be 'too critical' for their own good.

Terry Cross wrote:
> Paul's endorsement of tyranny, sexism, and slavery is not just cultural.
> Those are bedrock elements of society, and Paul was miserably wrong.
> And right after he relegates women to the status of domestic animals, he
> starts boasting that everything he says is from God and you must not
> question it. Corinthians 14:34.
>
> If Paul were running the churches today, American Christians would be in
> burkas. If you don't wear a burka, you are insincere endorsing Paul.
>
> TCross

I suppose from a feminist point of view, you would think that.

As far as the culture of that time period is concerned, thats just
the way it was. It is, what it is. Nothing will change that.

Putting that aside while you are reading Paul, is where one gains
insight into the salvation of God through the Messiah.

With the additional information as to common everyday troubles
of that era, we can readily see the battles being fought for the
Gospel. And there were many, including all kinds of divisions,
which he desperately tried to mend.

It's interesting how Paul uses human arguments to plow
through misconceptions.

For example -- doing a search in Romans for "God forbid".

This was his way, putting forth questions, as being asked by
others, rebuking their idea or their understanding of various
issues, and then providing the answer as the right view of it:

---
[Romans 3:3-4]
3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief
make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;
as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy
sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

[Romans 3:31]
31 Do we then make void the law through faith?
God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[Romans 6:1-3]
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that
grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any
longer therein?

[Romans 7:7]
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid.
Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had
not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt
not covet.

[Romans 7:12-13]
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy,
and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me?
God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death
in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment
might become exceeding sinful.

[Romans 11:1]
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the
tribe of Benjamin.
---

[Up from the Abyss]

iqnews wrote:
>
<snip>

> For example -- doing a search in Romans for "God forbid".

<snip>
> [Romans 3:3-4]
> [Romans 3:31]
> [Romans 6:1-3]
> [Romans 7:7]
> [Romans 7:12-13]
> [Romans 11:1]

Good post Iqnews, I enjoyed that one.

[Terry Cross]

Either you are a feminist or a sexist.

> As far as the culture of that time period is concerned, thats just
> the way it was.

?? 'Fraid not. Paul pretended to be speaking for God. He says it
right there in Corinthians 14. And you are saying that the commandments
of God are culturally relative. On age true, next age false. Things
change.

I don't believe it. God never came out and canceled those commandments,
so how were we supposed to know when rebelling against a tyrant or
permitting women to speak in church was acceptable to God?

How could they be right then and not right now? When did they change
and how did YOU know they changed? How do you know that our current
government of the United States is not just a horrible sin against the
Pauline laws?

Did you get a message from God that I didn't hear about?

It is, what it is. Nothing will change that.

On the contrary, Paul's ideas of divine tyranny helped to shape divine
right of kings for more than a thousand years. His ideas were an
abomination that caused immeasurable cruelty in Europe.

> Putting that aside while you are reading Paul,

Ain't going to happen. That is like asking you to put aside your
objections and read the shear beauty of philosophy in Mein Kampf.

TCross

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Thu, 27 Jun 2013 19:50:47 -0700
Message-ID: <kqitlq$hib$1...@speranza.aioe.org>

Terry Cross <tcro...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Either you are a feminist or a sexist.

Kinda like black and white are the only two colors in the spectrum?

[Terry Cross]

Kind of like you believe the sexes have equal rights, or they do not.
If the former, you are a feminist; if that latter, a sexist. Can you
split the difference between equal and not equal?

TCross

[duke]

I think you should change "messiah" to Lord Jesus. After all, messiah means
warrior king, or the one expected when Jesus arrived instead.

>With the additional information as to common everyday troubles
>of that era, we can readily see the battles being fought for the
>Gospel. And there were many, including all kinds of divisions,
>which he desperately tried to mend.
>
>It's interesting how Paul uses human arguments to plow
>through misconceptions.
>
>For example -- doing a search in Romans for "God forbid".
>
>This was his way, putting forth questions, as being asked by
>others, rebuking their idea or their understanding of various
>issues, and then providing the answer as the right view of it:

The dukester, American - American

********************************************
Repeal Obama - most impotent president ever.
Five major US scandals and still going strong:
a)Fast/Furious,b)IRS,c)NSA d)News Phone Records,
e)Selective enforcement of environmental laws
********************************************

[duke]

The selection of Paul's letters, as is all non-gospel books of the NT, are
included because they are fully in accordance with the teaching of Jesus.

>He says it
>right there in Corinthians 14. And you are saying that the commandments
>of God are culturally relative. On age true, next age false. Things
>change.

He can't. God spoke in the 10 commandments. Jesus gave us 2 new ways to
fulfill the 10 commandments of God by 1) love and obey God with all your soul
body, and mind, and 2) love your neighbor as yourself. Do this and you will, by
definition fulfill the 10 commandments.

>I don't believe it. God never came out and canceled those commandments,

Exactly. God spoke. And Jesus demonstrated in his words and deeds the way we
need to live in order to attain the kingdom of heaven as he, flesh, did.

>so how were we supposed to know when rebelling against a tyrant or
>permitting women to speak in church was acceptable to God?
>
>How could they be right then and not right now? When did they change
>and how did YOU know they changed? How do you know that our current
>government of the United States is not just a horrible sin against the
>Pauline laws?
>
>Did you get a message from God that I didn't hear about?
>
>
>It is, what it is. Nothing will change that.
>
>
>On the contrary, Paul's ideas of divine tyranny helped to shape divine
>right of kings for more than a thousand years. His ideas were an
>abomination that caused immeasurable cruelty in Europe.
>
>
>> Putting that aside while you are reading Paul,
>
>
>Ain't going to happen. That is like asking you to put aside your
>objections and read the shear beauty of philosophy in Mein Kampf.
>
>TCross

[Paul]

In article <kqjmda$94o$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, tcro...@hotmail.com
says...

1Co 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and
likewise also the wife unto the husband.
1Co 7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and
likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a
time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come
together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.


1Pe 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not
corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in
the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who
trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own
husbands:
1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters
ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
1Pe 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge,
giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being
heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of
another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Here are a couple statements from the Bible, Peter and Paul. Peter
brings up that in the Old Testament days that women obeyed their
husbands calling them "Lord".

Women are what they are. The first to sin, weaker, etc. And just because
some churches allow them leadership roles without being under the
heading of men does not mean that it is fine.

That said, like Jesus taking care of the Church/Believers while yet
being the head, men are to serve their wives in a similar fashion. Doing
so men do not give up but fulfill their positions as head of the family
or the local body of Christ.

[Terry Cross]

"Etc."? That certainly says it all. We may presume you mean the usual
hatred and suppression of women dogma that we inherited from the Middle
East. Why don't you just come out and admit you think women ought to
wear burqas.

> And just because
> some churches allow them leadership roles without being under the
> heading of men does not mean that it is fine.

Moses hated and feared women so badly, he could not even address them.
With Moses, it was always "your wives" etc. Moses was a psychotic
cripple. He wanted women to be banished from the camp whenever they
menstruated, and he wrote a law that forbade women from even using the
furniture.

> That said, like Jesus taking care of the Church/Believers while yet
> being the head, men are to serve their wives in a similar fashion. Doing
> so men do not give up but fulfill their positions as head of the family
> or the local body of Christ.

Yes, we know what Paul the Pharisee wrote. But Jesus did not dispense
any of that nonsense. Jesus saw women as human beings.

TCross


TCross

[Paul]

In article <krhpqk$pu1$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, tcro...@hotmail.com
says...

What you should have presumed is that they need extra help. I chose to
follow the word, not the folly of women. The word says,
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the
church, and gave himself for it;
Col 3:19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Here you see what God ordained for man. It is far different than your
personal opinions.

>
>> And just because
>> some churches allow them leadership roles without being under the
>> heading of men does not mean that it is fine.
>
>
>Moses hated and feared women so badly, he could not even address them.
>With Moses, it was always "your wives" etc. Moses was a psychotic
>cripple. He wanted women to be banished from the camp whenever they
>menstruated, and he wrote a law that forbade women from even using the
>furniture.
>

There was good reason for this, part of which is that blood carries
diseases and so on. Cleanliness of all types was enforced and enforced
heavily as they were camped in close quarters and God did not was
diseases to germinate and spread. Some women would want to enforce their
"rights" with total disregard to all about them. This ensures that they
cannot run amuck. They did not have secure containers to put any tampax,
etc. in nor did they have the luxury of that item. The upside is, that
the woman who also had emotional issues during tht life cycle were
outside the camp where they could scream and rant. :)

>
>> That said, like Jesus taking care of the Church/Believers while yet
>> being the head, men are to serve their wives in a similar fashion. Doing
>> so men do not give up but fulfill their positions as head of the family
>> or the local body of Christ.
>
>
>Yes, we know what Paul the Pharisee wrote. But Jesus did not dispense
>any of that nonsense. Jesus saw women as human beings.
>

As did Paul, what Paul wrote was inspired of God and His Holy Spirit.
Priscilla and Aquila travel with Paul and worked with Him.

Have you ever wondered why what you think and what the bible actually
says is so different?

[Linda Lee]

On Friday, May 24, 2013 3:24:54 AM UTC-4, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> On Fri, 24 May 2013 05:10:23 +0000
>
> Message-ID: <703cbb7b-981a-4b3a...@n5g2000pbg.googlegroups.com>
>
> Snow <snowp...@eck.net.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> IQN wote:

>
> > No Christian, "follows" Paul. Otherwise, we would not be Christians.
>
> >
>

> > The Apostle Paul was a minister of Jesus Christ, which other
>
> > Apostles accepted as forgiven by God, (it does not matter
>
> > what his past was, because he was forgiven), and who was
>
> > given the task of preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles.
>
>
>

> Snow wrote:
>
> > This you say because you are unable to formulate your position
>
> > without Paul.
>
>
>
> False, as I have already shown from the Book of John.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > If I ignore the teachings of Yeshua and place a HIGHER
>
> > authority on Paul, then I would say that I follow Paul. You seem to
>
> > think that that is some kind of death sentence rather then a conscious
>
> > choice that all Christians have made.
>
>
>
> No Christian, places a "HIGHER" authority on Paul.
>
> Thats all in your head. It's playing tricks on you.
>
>
>
>
>
> > I'm find with you believing the teachings of the Pharisee.
>
>
>
> False Assumption.
>
>
>
>
>
> IQN wote:

>
> > Snow, will you also dismiss the Book of John, as a hostile witness?
>
>
>

> Snow wrote:
>
> > Of course not but I do interpret what he said differently then you do.
>
>
>
> Evidently. But, you do not say How you interpret it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > In the end IQN, It's up to you to be HUMBLE and willing to consider
>
> > another position... The position that Paul was indeed the FALSE
>
> > APOSTLE spoken of in Rev. 2.
>
>
>
> I considered it. And now, I reject it, based on false premises.
>
> Zero variables.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > Rom 14:9 For unto this Messiah died and rose and lived again, to rule
>
> > over both the dead and the living.
>
>
>
> I have already covered this verse. I guess you forgot it.
>
>
>
> Jesus Christ, was spoke of the dead, SPIRITUALLY.
>
>
>
> Paul, spoke of the dead, who are in Jesus Christ, BODILY.
>
>
>
> There is a difference, you know.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > He figured out that if he faked a conversion and joined the ranks,
>
> > he would be the Trojan horse.
>
>
>
> False Assumption. Zero variables.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > The reality of today is that Paul speaks out of both sides of his
>
> > mouth so that the end result is strife.
>
>
>
> False Assumption. Zero variables.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > I believe the reason many will not be willing to see that Paul is the
>
> > doctrine of strife is because of pride.
>
>
>
> False Assumption. Zero variables.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > Because everything they believe and have posted on their
>
> > web pages and ministry ...
>
>
>
> WHO ARE THEY?
>
> WHAT web page?
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > The fact is he was accused of preaching against the Torah and he lied
>
> > in testimony before the court in order to cause strife.
>
>
>
> In order to get away from them, he pitted them against one
>
> another over the ressurection issue. It wouldn't be the first
>
> time someone used deception. Jacob and Esau comes to mind.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > Luke gives us a clear example of the message of Paul dividing
>
> > men that occurs even to this day. It is the doctrine of strife
>
> > and those who love it, love strife.
>
>
>
> False Assumption. Zero variables.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > Now I've just given direct evidence that Paul gave
>
> > false witness and its rock solid. What say you?
>
>
>
> What? Because of this?....
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > The fact is he was accused of preaching against the Torah and he lied
>
> > in testimony before the court in order to cause strife.
>
>
>
> It depends on how you look at it. I don't hold that against him.
>
> Actually, I think it's kinda funny how that turned out.
>
>
>
>
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > It comes down to your choice and it always has... who do you follow,
>
> > Paul or Yeshua?
>
>
>
> Jesus Christ.
>
>
>
> It never was an issue. Not for the Christian's I have known in my lifetime.
>
>
>
> It might be different for YOU, or what YOU have experienced.
>
>
>
> Don't think for a second, this issue is UNIVERSAL in Christianity.
>
>
>
> I have never seen it.



You didn't address something else that Snowjob erroneously said in that post; in the following quote, he calls the Pharisees and Sadducees who were on "the council" (i.e. the Sanhedrin) part of "the church of our Messiah", which is false; no believers were on "the council".

Snowjob wrote:
<BEGIN QUOTE>
"If we consider the motivation of this passage, “perceiving that one
part were Sadducees”, Paul was speaking on the topic that created the
most strife between the two factions and the fruit of his
pronouncement:

Act 23:7 And when he had said this, there came a dissension between
the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And the crowd was divided.

Looking at the modern Church, we see that even unto this very date,
they are divided into dozens of major denominations. Paul’s doctrine
is and has been since the beginning to divide the church of our
Messiah. It’s worked very effectively for over 1700 years now since
his doctrine was included in the Roman canon."
<END QUOTE>


WRONG, SNOWJOB.

Act 22:30 On the morrow, because he would have known the certainty wherefore he was accused of the Jews, he loosed him from his bands, and commanded the CHIEF PRIESTS AND ALL THEIR COUNCIL to appear, and brought Paul down, and set him before them.
Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding THE COUNCIL, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?
Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?
Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
Act 23:6 But when ___Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in THE COUNCIL,___ Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 05:19:45 +0000
Message-ID: <b571032b-ecb5-47e5...@googlegroups.com>

Linda Lee <lindag...@juno.com> wrote:

> You didn't address something else that Snowjob erroneously said in that
> post; in the following quote, he calls the Pharisees and Sadducees who
> were on "the council" (i.e. the Sanhedrin) part of "the church of our Messiah",
> which is false; no believers were on "the council".

You're right, I didn't catch it. Very interesting that he would say that.

He never did respond to what website he was referring to:

------------

Snow wrote:
> Because everything they believe and have posted on their
> web pages and ministry ...

IQN wrote:
> WHO ARE THEY?
> WHAT web page?

------------

Evidently, he was basing most of his information from it.



> Snowjob wrote:
> <BEGIN QUOTE>
> "If we consider the motivation of this passage, =93perceiving that one
> part were Sadducees=94, Paul was speaking on the topic that created the

> most strife between the two factions and the fruit of his
> pronouncement:
>
> Act 23:7 And when he had said this, there came a dissension between
> the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And the crowd was divided.
>
> Looking at the modern Church, we see that even unto this very date,

> they are divided into dozens of major denominations. Paul=92s doctrine

> is and has been since the beginning to divide the church of our

> Messiah. It=92s worked very effectively for over 1700 years now since

> his doctrine was included in the Roman canon."
> <END QUOTE>
>
>
> WRONG, SNOWJOB.
>

> Act 22:30 On the morrow, because he would have known the certainty wherefo=
> re he was accused of the Jews, he loosed him from his bands, and commanded =
> the CHIEF PRIESTS AND ALL THEIR COUNCIL to appear, and brought Paul down, a=

> nd set him before them.

> Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding THE COUNCIL, said, Men and brethren=

> , I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.

> Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to s=

> mite him on the mouth.

> Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: =
> for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten=

> contrary to the law?
> Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?

> Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest=
> : for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.=
>
> Act 23:6 But when ___Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and =
> the other Pharisees, he cried out in THE COUNCIL,___ Men and brethren, I am=
> a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dea=

> d I am called in question.

> .

[Up from the Abyss]

Terry Cross wrote:
> Paul wrote:
> >

<snip>

> Why don't you just come out and admit you think
> women ought to wear burqas.

I object!!!

I think women within 20% of the body mass index
should be required to wear bikinis!

Yeah! I know this is going to go bad for me. But I
can't help it.

<snip>

[Up from the Abyss]

"Linda Lee" wrote:
> iqnews wrote:
> > Snow wrote:
> >>

<snip>

> You didn't address something else that Snowjob
> erroneously said in that post; in the following quote,
> he calls the Pharisees and Sadducees who were on
> "the council" (i.e. the Sanhedrin) part of "the church
> of our Messiah", which is false; no believers were
> on "the council".

Which, may or may not be true. That depends entirely
upon the manner in which one reads that which Snow
wrote. And of course we all know, you would never
paint someone's words in the worst possible light, nor
would you ever not give them the benefit of the doubt.

> > Snow wrote:
> <BEGIN QUOTE>
> >> "If we consider the motivation of this passage, "perceiving
> >> that one part were Sadducees", Paul was speaking on the
> >> topic that created the most strife between the two factions
> >> and the fruit of his pronouncement:
> >>
> >> Act 23:7 And when he had said this, there came a dissension
> >> between the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And the crowd
> >> was divided.
> >>
> >> Looking at the modern Church, we see that even unto this very
> >> date, they are divided into dozens of major denominations.
> >> Paul's doctrine is and has been since the beginning to divide the
> >> church of our Messiah. It's worked very effectively for over
> >> 1700 years now since his doctrine was included in the Roman
> >> canon."
> <END QUOTE>

Now iqnews, read that again more objectively. Snow *never*
called the Sanhedrin, or council of the Pharisees and Sadducees
"part of the church of our Messiah" as Linda has attempted to
lead some to believe.


> WRONG, SNOWJOB.

Yet, you are also incorrect Linda.

<snip>

[iqn...@noemail.com]

On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 18:33:44 -0700
Message-ID: <zt6dnSwTPNTklkPM...@earthlink.com>

Up from the Abyss wrote:
> Now iqnews, read that again more objectively. Snow *never*
> called the Sanhedrin, or council of the Pharisees and Sadducees
> "part of the church of our Messiah" as Linda has attempted to
> lead some to believe.

I read it 3 more times, and I'll concede -- but still amiss in content.


Linda Lee wrote:
> WRONG, SNOWJOB.

[Linda Lee]

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 2:47:53 AM UTC-4, iqn...@noemail.com wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2013 05:19:45 +0000
>
> Message-ID: <b571032b-ecb5-47e5...@googlegroups.com>
>
> Linda Lee <lindag...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > You didn't address something else that Snowjob erroneously said in that
>
> > post; in the following quote, he calls the Pharisees and Sadducees who
>
> > were on "the council" (i.e. the Sanhedrin) part of "the church of our Messiah",
>
> > which is false; no believers were on "the council".
>
>
>
>
>
> You're right, I didn't catch it. Very interesting that he would say that.
>

It didn't matter that it was a false statement; it was convenient to his argument that Paul allegedly created strife in the church of God from the beginning of his conversion.

The validity of Paul's conversion was controversial in the beginning because of his persecution of the church, and he no doubt had a strong 'take-charge' type of personality, but Paul was NOT creating strife in the church of God by trying to get the Pharisees on the council/the sanhedrin to take his side by bringing up the fact that the Pharisees (unlike the Sadducees who were also on the council) likewise believed in the resurrection of the dead just like "the way which they [the council/sanhedrin] call heresy" believed in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6). (The unbelieving Jews called followers of the Nazarene/Jesus of Nazareth "the sect of the Nazarenes" (Acts 24:5) and called the sect heresy.) As his support, in Acts 24:14, Paul said to the governor (to whom the high priest and sanhedrin had delivered him) that he believed in the resurrection of the dead because he believed "all things which are written in the law and in the prophets" ("the law" commonly referring to the five books of Moses/the Penteteuch - see below).


Acts 24:5 For we [the SANHEDRIN] have found this man [PAUL] a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the SECT OF THE NAZARENES:
...
Act 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered...
...
Acts 24:14 But this I [PAUL] confess unto thee, that after THE WAY WHICH THEY [THE SANHEDRIN] CALL HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAW AND IN THE PROPHETS:



Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Act 23:2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
Act 23:3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?

Act 23:4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest?

Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.
Act 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: OF THE HOPE AND RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD I AM CALLED IN QUESTION.
Act 23:7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
Act 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
Act 23:9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.


Luk 24:44 And he [CHRIST] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

"In the law of Moses - The five books of Moses - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Among the Jews this was the first division of the Old Testament, and was called the “law.”" - Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible.



John 1:45, "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in THE LAW, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph".

"and saith unto him, we have found him of whom Moses, in the law, and the prophets, did write. He does not say, that he, and Andrew, and Simon, had found the Messiah; though he designs him by this circumlocution; Nathanael being, as is generally thought, a person well versed in the law, and the prophets, and so would at once know who Philip meant: for Moses, in the law, or Pentateuch, in the five books written by him, frequently speaks of the Messiah as the seed of the woman, that should break the serpent's head; as the seed of Abraham, in whom all nations should be blessed; and as the Shiloh to whom the gathering of the people should be; and as the great prophet, like to himself, God would raise up among the children of Israel, to whom they were to hearken: and as for the prophets, they wrote of his birth of a virgin; of the place of his birth, Bethlehem; of his sufferings, and the glory, that should follow; of his resurrection from the dead, his ascension to heaven, and session at the right hand of God; and of many things relating to his person, and office, and work" - John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible.

>
>
> He never did respond to what website he was referring to:

Because he's all smoke and mirrors.

>
>
>
> ------------
>
> Snow wrote:
>
> > Because everything they believe and have posted on their
>
> > web pages and ministry ...
>
>
>
> IQN wrote:
>
> > WHO ARE THEY?
>
> > WHAT web page?
>
> ------------
>
>
>
> Evidently, he was basing most of his information from it.

You will find that he says whatever he feels like saying, regardless of the truth of the matter. He often misquotes even the ISR Scriptures bible version that he promotes. Convenient since most people can't check it out to see if he's quoting it correctly; myself, I've downloaded that version to e-sword just so I can check on his claims.