A Strict Vegetarian Diet
sh...@my-deja.com
prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly impede our
progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When you get
Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper techique.
Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and confidence in
the Master."
From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
Michael Martin
A Sant Mat Guru
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jodyr
[snip]
> Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
> Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
> already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
>
> Michael Martin
> A Sant Mat Guru
It is worth noting that Swami Vivekananda, the original expounder of
Yoga in the West, enjoyed consuming meat on certain occasions.
--jodyr.
iam...@on.the.net
This is because the human body does not evolve, nor is enlightenment
dependant on the functions or state of the human body.
Enlightenment is a function of Self, by the Grace of God.
Kenneth
iam...@on.the.net
>"Insistence on a strict vegetarian diet and on non-killing, etc., is to
>prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly impede our
>progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When you get
>Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper techique.
> Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and confidence in
>the Master."
>
>From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
>published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
>
>Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
>Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
>already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
>especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
>
>Michael Martin
>A Sant Mat Guru
Michael,
Enlightenment is not dependant on karma, nor on what you eat, nor on
your behavior, nor on who you worship or follow.
The above is written as part of your plan to spread your teachings of
doom, gloom and death, hell and punishment as being more important than
enlightenment.
And a major part of your control by fear of any possible disciples you
may find.
Kenneth
sh...@my-deja.com
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
> >> Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
> >> already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> >> especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
> >>
> >> Michael Martin
> >> A Sant Mat Guru
>
> >
> >Yoga in the West, enjoyed consuming meat on certain occasions.
> >
> >--jodyr.
>
> This is because the human body does not evolve, nor is enlightenment
> dependant on the functions or state of the human body.
What you wrote is true. Enlightenment depends on concentration of the mind
at the third eye center, and that is not dependant on the functions or state
of the human body.
Now, the issue arises regarding the concentration of the mind at the third
eye center. Meat-eaters have a much harder time achieving concentration of
mind at the third eye center. The layers of karma are obscuring the
spiritual light within us. Vegetarians will have thinner layers of karma
between the Father and them. Meat-eaters will have thicker layers of karma
between the Father and them. That is the big difference.
Also, when we are conscientious about not killing animals, it invokes the
grace of the Lord. If we are merciful, then he will be merciful to us.
>
> Enlightenment is a function of Self, by the Grace of God.
Yes, and I explained above, how it is more difficult for a meat-eater to get
enlightenment.
>
> Kenneth
Michael Martin
A Sant Mat Vegetarian Guru
>
> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>
> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
sh...@my-deja.com
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:04:24 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >"Insistence on a strict vegetarian diet and on non-killing, etc., is to
> >prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly impede our
> >progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When you get
> >Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper techique.
> > Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and confidence in
> >the Master."
> >
> >From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
> >published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
> >
> >Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
> >already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> >especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
> >
> >Michael Martin
> >A Sant Mat Guru
>
>
> Enlightenment is not dependant on karma,
I almost can't believe you wrote that. If we had no karma, we would all be
with the Supreme Being. Karma is what is keeping us in darkness. It has
kept us in the dark for nearly countless ages.
> nor on what you eat,
If we eat meat, we will have thicker layers of karma standing between the
Father and us, so what we eat is extremely important.
> nor on your behavior,
I almost can't believe you wrote this. God has to be happy with our behavior
otherwise we will never be brought before the True Saviour, the Living
Master. After meeting the Master, we also have to maintain good behaviour.
Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
and be reborn in lower species.
> nor on who you worship or follow.
I almost can't believe you wrote this. There are souls burning in Hell, at
this very moment, who have followed False Masters right to the Hellfire.
If we follow a True Master, we will reach the Supreme Being.
>
> The above is written as part of your plan to spread your teachings of
> doom, gloom and death, hell and punishment as being more important than
> enlightenment.
Enlightenment is very important. I have explained above the differences of
opinions that we have. I teach to obey the Living Master, and we will regain
our lost access to the Supreme Merciful Father.
>
> And a major part of your control by fear of any possible disciples you
> may find.
It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
likely end up in Hell.
>
> Kenneth
Michael Martin
Allen Crider
>
> In article <X2BpOH7Me8Iv3e...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:35:23 -0800, jodyr <jo...@dnai.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > >[snip]
> > >
> > >> Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
> > >> Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
> > >> already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> > >> especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
> > >>
> > >> Michael Martin
> > >> A Sant Mat Guru
> >
> > >
> > >Yoga in the West, enjoyed consuming meat on certain occasions.
> > >
> > >--jodyr.
> >
> > This is because the human body does not evolve, nor is enlightenment
> > dependant on the functions or state of the human body.
>
> What you wrote is true. Enlightenment depends on concentration of the mind
> at the third eye center, and that is not dependant on the functions or state
> of the human body.
Not true. Excessive third-eye meditations may cause you to BELIEVE you are
enlightened though.
>
> Now, the issue arises regarding the concentration of the mind at the third
> eye center. Meat-eaters have a much harder time achieving concentration of
> mind at the third eye center. The layers of karma are obscuring the
> spiritual light within us. Vegetarians will have thinner layers of karma
> between the Father and them. Meat-eaters will have thicker layers of karma
> between the Father and them. That is the big difference.
>
> Also, when we are conscientious about not killing animals, it invokes the
> grace of the Lord. If we are merciful, then he will be merciful to us.
>
> >
> > Enlightenment is a function of Self, by the Grace of God.
>
> Yes, and I explained above, how it is more difficult for a meat-eater to get
> enlightenment.
>
> >
> > Kenneth
>
> Michael Martin
> A Sant Mat Vegetarian Guru
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>In article <X2BpOH7Me8Iv3e...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:35:23 -0800, jodyr <jo...@dnai.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >> Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
>> >> Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
>> >> already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
>> >> especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
>> >>
>> >> Michael Martin
>> >> A Sant Mat Guru
>>
>> >It is worth noting that Swami Vivekananda, the original expounder of
>> >Yoga in the West, enjoyed consuming meat on certain occasions.
>> >
>> >--jodyr.
>>
>> This is because the human body does not evolve, nor is enlightenment
>> dependant on the functions or state of the human body.
>
>What you wrote is true. Enlightenment depends on concentration of the mind
>at the third eye center, and that is not dependant on the functions or state
>of the human body.
>
>Now, the issue arises regarding the concentration of the mind at the third
>eye center. Meat-eaters have a much harder time achieving concentration of
>mind at the third eye center. The layers of karma are obscuring the
>spiritual light within us. Vegetarians will have thinner layers of karma
>between the Father and them. Meat-eaters will have thicker layers of karma
>between the Father and them. That is the big difference.
>
>Also, when we are conscientious about not killing animals, it invokes the
>grace of the Lord. If we are merciful, then he will be merciful to us.
>
>> Enlightenment is a function of Self, by the Grace of God.
>
>Yes, and I explained above, how it is more difficult for a meat-eater to get
>enlightenment.
Nah ! Kill off all the plants, then we get to learn how to not
breathe.
>> Kenneth
>
>Michael Martin
>A Sant Mat Vegetarian Guru
>>
>> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>>
>> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Leo Smith
sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I almost can't believe you wrote that. If we had no karma, we would all be
> with the Supreme Being. Karma is what is keeping us in darkness. It has
> kept us in the dark for nearly countless ages.
>
Speak for yourself mate!
>
> Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
> and be reborn in lower species.
>
You are then obviously bound to be reborn a vegetable, since it is these fine species
that you abuse.
I suspect you will be reborn as a cabbage. This may well be a great step in spiritual
evoluton for you.
> I almost can't believe you wrote this. There are souls burning in Hell, at
> this very moment, who have followed False Masters right to the Hellfire.
>
Yup. Can you smell the brimstone yet Michael? We are sharpening the pitchforks NOW!!!
> It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
> likely end up in Hell.
>
You poor sucker. God is a damn sight smarter than that. And if he isn't I want nothing
to do with such a poltroon!
iam...@on.the.net
Thank you for your reply.
However, according to your teachings souls may transmigrate to both
animals and plants.
So there is *no* difference in killing animals or plants, as both have
souls.
In cutting cabbage for instance, the cabbage suffers, and dies, and
begins to rot. So the cabbage is 'killed'.
I also disagree that one type of diet causes karma to come between man
and God and slow down enlightenment. The body has no say in
enlightenment, it is a function of the Self.
Kenneth
iam...@on.the.net
>In article <7XlpOC59YvJiPd...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> Michael,
>>
>> Enlightenment is not dependant on karma,
>
>I almost can't believe you wrote that. If we had no karma, we would all be
>with the Supreme Being. Karma is what is keeping us in darkness. It has
>kept us in the dark for nearly countless ages.
Yes, the belief in karma is what has kept most of us in the dark ages,
because there is no such thing as karma! The very belief of karma makes
one look forward to a life where all karma is paid off, therefore there
can never be a time when you have paid off karma.
It is always in the future, so why try now?
>> nor on what you eat,
>
>If we eat meat, we will have thicker layers of karma standing between the
>Father and us, so what we eat is extremely important.
Yes, what we eat is important. Lots of people cannot survive on a
vegetarian diet, they have to have meat. These people can still attain
enlightenment as quick as, or even quicker than veggies.
>> nor on your behavior,
>
>I almost can't believe you wrote this. God has to be happy with our behavior
>otherwise we will never be brought before the True Saviour, the Living
>Master. After meeting the Master, we also have to maintain good behaviour.
Many people who have had 'bad' lives have attained enlightenment in
their bad lives. Please do not ask me who, ?? Do you think God sees
'bad' or 'good' in His creations, when He created us, in His image?
Perfect?
>Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
>and be reborn in lower species.
Come on Michael, this is rubbish. Why would God create in His image to
punish in what you think is a lower form of life?
Listen, an animal cannot think. You teach that we must use any force to
stop thinking. The animal is therefore successful, you are not.
One to the animals.
Animals are detached from karma. You are not.
Two to the animals.
Animals are detached from suffering and worry about life. They cannot
think. Therefore they are at peace.
Three to the animals.
Animals have abundance. There is always food for them, especially
domesticated animals.
Four to the animals.
Domestic animals have incredible amounts of love to give. humanity does
not.
Five to animals.
Domestic animals get lot's of love back, lot's of grooming and good
food. Free. You do not.
Six to the animals.
God has promised in the bible to feed the animals and the lilies of the
field, 'who toil not'. As you have already been given, but have not
accepted.
Seven to the animals.
Want more? Is it not obvious that it is better to be an animal, and have
Peace, Love and Abundance? No fears, no worries, just peace?
I have this because I have chosen these things, given to me by God at
creation.
Do you have them Michael?
Why do you teach that bad karma cause transmigration of your soul into
an animal, when it is better??
>> nor on who you worship or follow.
>
>I almost can't believe you wrote this. There are souls burning in Hell, at
>this very moment, who have followed False Masters right to the Hellfire.
ha ha ha. You are a not a teacher of God, but of death, doom and gloom,
of punishment and hell.
Can you not teach of a God of Love, who practices non-judgement,
forgiveness and has already given you everything you need?
No you cannot, because you have chosen darkness, and fear.
>If we follow a True Master, we will reach the Supreme Being.
Just as well you are not a true master then, because a true master can
only teach of the love of God. :) No offence, just an observation. he
he he
>> The above is written as part of your plan to spread your teachings of
>> doom, gloom and death, hell and punishment as being more important than
>> enlightenment.
>
>Enlightenment is very important. I have explained above the differences of
>opinions that we have. I teach to obey the Living Master, and we will regain
>our lost access to the Supreme Merciful Father.
He is so merciful that He punishes by transmigration of souls, death,
doom and gloom, punishment by going into hell for eternity.
Heyl Michael, which is He? Merciful Love, or hateful punishment? He
cannot be both.
>>
>> And a major part of your control by fear of any possible disciples you
>> may find.
>
>It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
>likely end up in Hell.
Michael, is God merciful, or not? Do not give God attributes He cannot
have.
peace brother Michael
Kenneth
John Greene
field of awareness. A darkness. Messing with my concentration.
Maybe you've had a similar experience.
It's a good reason not to eat meat.
-J
<sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:848gcs$jo6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Insistence on a strict vegetarian diet and on non-killing, etc., is to
> prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly impede
our
> progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When you get
> Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper
techique.
> Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and confidence
in
> the Master."
>
> From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
> published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
>
> Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
> Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
> already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
>
> Michael Martin
> A Sant Mat Guru
>
>
Drpsionic
vegetarians.
But they were good roasted in the orange sauce.
Chuck Cosimano
http://www.petprojects.net/cosimano
Visualize World War
Leo Smith
John Greene wrote:
> Karma theory aside, meat puts a fuzz in my head. One more thing clouding my
> field of awareness. A darkness. Messing with my concentration.
> Maybe you've had a similar experience.
> It's a good reason not to eat meat.
>
It is something to be overcome. All foods have benefits and all are also
poisons.
It is just a question of which poisons you feel most like dealing with.
I don't mind the fuzz. I like the buzz.
I hope we can agree, and yet differ in our tastes..
Mathew
Vegitarian food is not poison
>
>
>
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>In article <7XlpOC59YvJiPd...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:04:24 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >"Insistence on a strict vegetarian diet and on non-killing, etc., is to
>> >prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly impede our
>> >progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When you get
>> >Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper techique.
>> > Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and confidence in
>> >the Master."
>> >
>> >From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
>> >published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
>> >
>> >Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
>> >Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
>> >already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
>> >especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
>> >
>> >Michael Martin
>> >A Sant Mat Guru
>>
>> Michael,
>>
>> Enlightenment is not dependant on karma,
>
>I almost can't believe you wrote that. If we had no karma, we would all be
>with the Supreme Being. Karma is what is keeping us in darkness. It has
>kept us in the dark for nearly countless ages.
Karma = past experience / past life Karma comes in GOOD Karma (in the
Bible good deeds are rewarded seven-fold, while sins are rewarded
three-fold) and bad karma (You are Sooo negitive, work for Satan don't
you ??)
>> nor on what you eat,
>
>If we eat meat, we will have thicker layers of karma standing between the
>Father and us, so what we eat is extremely important.
The animal is just as dead whether I eat it or not, why waste it ?
Waste is sinful.
>> nor on your behavior,
>
>I almost can't believe you wrote this. God has to be happy with our behavior
>otherwise we will never be brought before the True Saviour, the Living
>Master. After meeting the Master, we also have to maintain good behaviour.
>
>Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
>and be reborn in lower species.
BS
>> nor on who you worship or follow.
>
>I almost can't believe you wrote this. There are souls burning in Hell, at
>this very moment, who have followed False Masters right to the Hellfire.
Heaven and hell are here "fire" is symbolic for purification, like
purifying metals in a furnace
>If we follow a True Master, we will reach the Supreme Being.
>>
>> The above is written as part of your plan to spread your teachings of
>> doom, gloom and death, hell and punishment as being more important than
>> enlightenment.
>
>Enlightenment is very important. I have explained above the differences of
>opinions that we have. I teach to obey the Living Master, and we will regain
>our lost access to the Supreme Merciful Father.
>> And a major part of your control by fear of any possible disciples you
>> may find.
>
>It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
>likely end up in Hell.
Fear and faith are opposit of each other, English Bibles
misinterpreted the mss RESPECT is too often interpreted as "fear". God
desires FAITH and constantly says FEAR NOT !!
>> Kenneth
>
>Michael Martin
>>
>> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>>
>> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
>>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Michael Shealy
Certainly there are many references therein, blessing eating the pig
(oops, sorry all you Jewish folks) and other assorted animals.
We are really just turning somewhere else that supports The Master's
Teachings, right? Karma, say isn't that the old "action-reaction"
theory? I hope that's still in effect in the old by and by, Maja
Samahdi and all that.
Nam, now that's in "Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's" isn't it?
BTW what is this Sant Mat stuff you are touting brother? You have
some really cool meditation techniques? One's that nobody else knows?
> Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and
confidence in
> the Master."
>
The Confidence Master, I like this....you might sell it.
Mikey
It's never too late for a happy childhood.
<sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:848gcs$jo6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Insistence on a strict vegetarian diet and on non-killing, etc., is
to
> prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly
impede our
> progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When
you get
> Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper
techique.
> Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and
confidence in
> the Master."
>
> From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
> published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
>
> Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot,
lately.
> Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic
load is
> already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
>
> Michael Martin
> A Sant Mat Guru
>
>
sh...@my-deja.com
gw...@urjet.net (Glenn (Christian Mystic)) wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:50:28 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <7XlpOC59YvJiPd...@4ax.com>,
> > iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:04:24 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
<snip>
> >>
> >> Michael,
> >>
> >> Enlightenment is not dependant on karma,
> >
> >I almost can't believe you wrote that. If we had no karma, we would all be
> >with the Supreme Being. Karma is what is keeping us in darkness. It has
> >kept us in the dark for nearly countless ages.
>
> Karma = past experience / past life Karma comes in GOOD Karma (in the
> Bible good deeds are rewarded seven-fold, while sins are rewarded
> three-fold)
If the good karmas are with the True Masters, the rewards could even be
10-fold. Other than that, it is generally tit for tat. We reap what we sow.
> and bad karma (You are Sooo negitive, work for Satan don't
> you ??)
>
> >> nor on what you eat,
> >
> >If we eat meat, we will have thicker layers of karma standing between the
> >Father and us, so what we eat is extremely important.
>
> The animal is just as dead whether I eat it or not, why waste it ?
Allow me to explain, if you are talking about finding a dean animal in the
woods, that might have some truth, but if you are buying it in a store, then
you become part of the karmic law, and also of supply and demand. If we
create a demand for meat, then the slaughterhouses will be very happy, and
they will kill animals for us.
> Waste is sinful.
Then put it in the woods. Why eat it? Why put flesh in your system. Paul
said that he would not eat anything unclean.
>
> >> nor on your behavior,
> >
> >I almost can't believe you wrote this. God has to be happy with our behavior
> >otherwise we will never be brought before the True Saviour, the Living
> >Master. After meeting the Master, we also have to maintain good behaviour.
> >
> >Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
> >and be reborn in lower species.
>
> BS
It is the truth, whether we are brave enough to accept it or not.
>
> >> nor on who you worship or follow.
> >
> >I almost can't believe you wrote this. There are souls burning in Hell, at
> >this very moment, who have followed False Masters right to the Hellfire.
>
> Heaven and hell are here
No, Heaven and Hell are both in higher planes. Walt Whitman also pointed
this out in his poem, "Chanting the Square Deific."
>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
> purifying metals in a furnace
No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this earth. Why
can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have tried so
hard to tell you.
>
> >If we follow a True Master, we will reach the Supreme Being.
> >>
> >> The above is written as part of your plan to spread your teachings of
> >> doom, gloom and death, hell and punishment as being more important than
> >> enlightenment.
> >
> >Enlightenment is very important. I have explained above the differences of
> >opinions that we have. I teach to obey the Living Master, and we will regain
> >our lost access to the Supreme Merciful Father.
>
> >> And a major part of your control by fear of any possible disciples you
> >> may find.
> >
> >It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
> >likely end up in Hell.
>
> Fear and faith are opposit of each other, English Bibles
> misinterpreted the mss RESPECT is too often interpreted as "fear". God
> desires FAITH and constantly says FEAR NOT !!
It is good to have a fear of offending God, as I have written above. It is
all through the Bible, and you will still, neither believe the Bible, nor me.
All I can say, is good luck to you.
>
> >> Kenneth
> >
> >Michael Martin
> >>
> >> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
> >>
> >> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
> >>
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
>
> Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>
Michael Martin
A Sant Mat Mystic
iam...@on.the.net
>>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
>> purifying metals in a furnace
>
>No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this earth. Why
>can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have tried so
>hard to tell you.
Ok Michael,
You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell? Why are
they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their karma.
Yes?
Now do not make excuses, why is, oh say Glenn [no offence Glenn, you are
someone we all know, and have told us of your disabilities], not in
hell, rather that in a wheel chair??
Because there is no hell, but Glenn has chosen his karmic debt to be as
he is.
There are six billion people in this world, how many sufferers are
there? People who are starving, diseased and so on? Why are they not in
hell, as you say they should be?
Because there is no such place as hell.
Now Michael, learn to think before you speak.
BTW, why do you not respond to my animal post? I hope it is because you
have seen some light about the non-event of transmigration of souls. And
that God is a God of Love, and consequent Forgiveness.
Not a God of hate and punishment as you have us believe.
Why do you not teach of a God of Love, Peace and Happiness? Of a God of
non-judgement and therefore of Forgiveness??
You cannot can you, because you believe that you know more than God.
Kenneth
sh...@my-deja.com
"John Greene" <jo...@goodinassociates.com> wrote:
> Karma theory aside, meat puts a fuzz in my head. One more thing clouding my
> field of awareness. A darkness. Messing with my concentration.
> Maybe you've had a similar experience.
> It's a good reason not to eat meat.
>
Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
Michael Martin
>
> <sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:848gcs$jo6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > "Insistence on a strict vegetarian diet and on non-killing, etc., is to
> > prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly impede
> our
> > progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When you get
> > Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper
> techique.
> > Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and confidence
> in
> > the Master."
> >
> > From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
> > published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
> >
> > Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot, lately.
> > Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic load is
> > already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> > especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
> >
> > Michael Martin
> > A Sant Mat Guru
sh...@my-deja.com
Here Now
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 00:51:35 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
> >> purifying metals in a furnace
> >
> >No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this
earth. Why
> >can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have
tried so
> >hard to tell you.
>
> Ok Michael,
>
> You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
>
> Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell? Why are
> they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their
karma.
> Yes?
Actually, Kenneth, it's not obvious at all. I found a few of your
earlier points well-made, but you seem to be moving into a more rigid
way of thinking here. How can one judge another's plight and the reason
for it? Can we look at the starving, diseased, the poor and believe -
oh yea - they were *really* debauched in a former life? What if that
role were chosen instead as a way to serve humanity? As an instrument
for enlightenment? What path might Buddha have taken had he not
encountered the pitiful characters outside of his family's estate?
>
> Now do not make excuses, why is, oh say Glenn [no offence Glenn, you
are
> someone we all know, and have told us of your disabilities], not in
> hell, rather that in a wheel chair??
>
> Because there is no hell, but Glenn has chosen his karmic debt to be
as
> he is.
In one breath (earlier post)you say that karma is not relevant (I
agree). And next you appear to give value to karma and suggest that
Glenn has something to pay off. Perhaps he is adding credits to his
karmic account instead. I merely contend that we DO NOT know and the
sooner we let go of our concepts, the less encumbered we will be. HN
>
> There are six billion people in this world, how many sufferers are
> there? People who are starving, diseased and so on? Why are they not
in
> hell, as you say they should be?
>
> Because there is no such place as hell.
>
> Now Michael, learn to think before you speak.
>
> BTW, why do you not respond to my animal post? I hope it is because
you
> have seen some light about the non-event of transmigration of souls.
And
> that God is a God of Love, and consequent Forgiveness.
>
> Not a God of hate and punishment as you have us believe.
>
> Why do you not teach of a God of Love, Peace and Happiness? Of a God
of
> non-judgement and therefore of Forgiveness??
>
> You cannot can you, because you believe that you know more than God.
>
> Kenneth
>
> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>
> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
>
sh...@my-deja.com
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:39:12 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Thank you for your reply.
>
> However, according to your teachings souls may transmigrate to both
> animals and plants.
That is right, soul can transmigrate to animals, birds, insects, reptiles,
water creatures, and plants.
>
> So there is *no* difference in killing animals or plants, as both have
> souls.
Both have souls, but the karma is like if you stole sombody's brand new
Lincoln, compared to stealing a brand new Escort.
If we have to kill something in order to live, then it shouls be the lowest
life forms, and that would be the plant kingdom. That would incur the least
karma. Killing an animal, which is just below humans, would incur relatively
more karma.
>
> In cutting cabbage for instance, the cabbage suffers, and dies, and
> begins to rot. So the cabbage is 'killed'.
Yes, but that killing can be justifed, because we have to kill something to
eat and live. Killing animals can't be similarly justified, because God has
provided us with so many vegetarian alternatives.
>
> I also disagree that one type of diet causes karma to come between man
> and God and slow down enlightenment. The body has no say in
> enlightenment, it is a function of the Self.
Well, then, according to your theory, why are our "Selves," operating on this
physical plane? Why are we not in higher spiritual regions, where there is
more spiritual light and sound, where the Father can be seen and heard? IMHO,
our "Self" is operating here because of "karma," which has been assigned to
it. You act like we have free will. That is antithetical to the truth. We
are like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
>
> Kenneth
>
> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
Michael Martin
sh...@my-deja.com
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:50:28 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <7XlpOC59YvJiPd...@4ax.com>,
> > iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>
> >> Michael,
> >>
> >> Enlightenment is not dependant on karma,
> >
> >I almost can't believe you wrote that. If we had no karma, we would all be
> >with the Supreme Being. Karma is what is keeping us in darkness. It has
> >kept us in the dark for nearly countless ages.
>
It is not just belief. We are sentenced to live a certain life. Our lives
are predestined according to our karmas. For example, we are assigned
certain parents, a certain country in which to be born. That assignment is
not because we "believe" in karma. It is because we are operating in a
region, which is governed by karma.
> because there is no such thing as karma!
Christ said, "Even the hairs on your head are numbered." Walt Whitman said,
"There is a strict account of all." You are very wrong, IMHO.
From higher spiritual regions, you could say that karma doesn't exist, but
since we are living here, then it controls us, unless we submit ourselves to
a True Master, and go beyond the reach of karma by meditation.
>The very belief of karma makes
> one look forward to a life where all karma is paid off, therefore there
> can never be a time when you have paid off karma.
Yes, when we reach the third spiritual region, then we will have nullified
all the "stored" karmas from millions of past lives. But the karma for the
present life will remain until we die, however.
>
> It is always in the future, so why try now?
If we don't start, we will never get out of Satan's prison. He is keeping us
prisoners due to our own karmas.
>
> >> nor on what you eat,
> >
> >If we eat meat, we will have thicker layers of karma standing between the
> >Father and us, so what we eat is extremely important.
>
> Yes, what we eat is important. Lots of people cannot survive on a
> vegetarian diet, they have to have meat.
I don't agree with that. If they can live on meat, why can't they live on
vegetables, fruits, and nuts? Meat is a much more unclean diet, as Peter said
in the Bible.
> These people can still attain
> enlightenment as quick as, or even quicker than veggies.
Generally speaking, I don't agree. Meat eating tends to keep the attention
scattered down and out from the eye center. Enlightenment is found at the
eye center.
>
> >> nor on your behavior,
> >
> >I almost can't believe you wrote this. God has to be happy with our behavior
> >otherwise we will never be brought before the True Saviour, the Living
> >Master. After meeting the Master, we also have to maintain good behaviour.
>
> Many people who have had 'bad' lives have attained enlightenment in
> their bad lives.
I think we have misjudged their lives, then, in those instances. Someone who
appears as a sinner, might have repented to the Father, and he might have a
lot of good karmas to his credit, which we don't know about. So, it is very
difficult to say that they were "bad."
Please do not ask me who, ?? Do you think God sees
> 'bad' or 'good' in His creations, when He created us, in His image?
> Perfect?
Yes, some souls have been so "bad," that now they are living as vegetables,
plants, nuts, etc....Some even live as microbes in our eyebrows. God
definitely sees everything.
>
> >Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
> >and be reborn in lower species.
>
> Come on Michael, this is rubbish.
It is the truth, and many Saints have told us that truth, but many religions
have opted to throw that part out of the religion, also. So, if we are
smart, we will listen to the testimony of the Living Master. Christ said,
"He who has ears, let him hear. There will be wailing and gnashing of
teeth." "Wailing," could be in Hell due to the hellfire, "Gnashing of
teeth," could be a rebirth in an animal form, such as a cougar, for example.
> Why would God create in His image to
> punish in what you think is a lower form of life?
He has created a creation, then he introduced the souls into it. At one time
the souls had no karma, but then they started doing karma, some good and some
bad, and after millions of lives, we are now in this hopeless situation,
where we owe so much karma, that we can't even hope to pay it back, because
our debt is so huge. Only a True Master can extricate us from this karmic
entanglement, now.
>
> Listen, an animal cannot think.
Yes.
> You teach that we must use any force to
> stop thinking.
Yes, but the only way to do that is to practice Simran, or the repetition of
the Guru's Mantra. An animal can't do repetition. We have to replace our
worldly thoughts with spiritual thoughts by doing the Simran. An animal can't
do that.
An animal might close his eyes, but that doesn't mean he will experience
mystic transport. He will simply fall asleep. So, an animal only has two
choices, if he keeps his eyes open, then his attention is scattered into the
world, and if he closes his eyes, he will fall asleep. He will not catch the
Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit, that is for sure.
> The animal is therefore successful, you are not.
I explained above.
>
> One to the animals.
No, I explained above.
>
> Animals are detached from karma. You are not.
No, an animal is like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
>
> Two to the animals.
So far, animals have zero.
>
> Animals are detached from suffering and worry about life. They cannot
> think. Therefore they are at peace.
Unless some other animal is trying to eat them. Unless the weather is bad.
Unless there is no water to drink, nor food to eat.
>
> Three to the animals.
Animals still have zero.
>
> Animals have abundance.
Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. It depends on their karma.
There is always food for them,
Sometimes, they lack food.
especially
> domesticated animals.
Many of them are better off, that is true.
>
> Four to the animals.
It is true that some animals have more to eat then some humans, but they are
still afflicted with a lack of intellect. Would you rather be a domestic cat
with plenty of food, or a human with not enough food? I would choose
"human."
>
> Domestic animals have incredible amounts of love to give. humanity does
> not.
Humanity has more love than animals, generally speaking. That could be one
reason they are born as humans. Animals are capable of loving, also, and
those animals will be born as humans, most likely.
>
> Five to animals.
I don't agree.
>
> Domestic animals get lot's of love back, lot's of grooming and good
> food. Free. You do not.
Humans sometimes have very good karmas, also.
>
> Six to the animals.
Grooming and good food doesn't take the place of "intellect." I would still
choose humans.
>
> God has promised in the bible to feed the animals and the lilies of the
> field, 'who toil not'. As you have already been given, but have not
> accepted.
Yes, God gives karmas to the animals, as well as to us, but I would still
choose humans.
>
> Seven to the animals.
>
> Want more? Is it not obvious that it is better to be an animal, and have
> Peace, Love and Abundance? No fears, no worries, just peace?
It is not obvious at all. Animals generally suffer more than humans, but
there are some exceptions, but the overriding issue with them is their lack
of ability to reason. That is a great disadvantage for them.
>
> I have this because I have chosen these things, given to me by God at
> creation.
Good for you.
>
> Do you have them Michael?
I know the truth.
>
> Why do you teach that bad karma cause transmigration of your soul into
> an animal, when it is better??
It is not better. Also, it is easy to slide down from an animal to a bird,
then to an insect, etc., etc....
>
> >> nor on who you worship or follow.
> >
> >I almost can't believe you wrote this. There are souls burning in Hell, at
> >this very moment, who have followed False Masters right to the Hellfire.
>
> ha ha ha. You are a not a teacher of God, but of death, doom and gloom,
> of punishment and hell.
I am just warning, that's all.
>
> Can you not teach of a God of Love, who practices non-judgement,
> forgiveness and has already given you everything you need?
Yes, I do teach that if we follow a True Master, we will get all of that. In
regards to non-judgement, we have to rise to higher levels to go beyond
karma. There is no other way. The Master will take us there, if we follow
him with love and devotion.
>
> No you cannot, because you have chosen darkness, and fear.
No, I choose the light. Please be accurate in your declarations.
>
> >If we follow a True Master, we will reach the Supreme Being.
>
> Just as well you are not a true master then, because a true master can
> only teach of the love of God. :) No offence, just an observation. he
> he he
A True Master teaches that, but he also warns us about Satan and Hell.
>
> >> The above is written as part of your plan to spread your teachings of
> >> doom, gloom and death, hell and punishment as being more important than
> >> enlightenment.
> >
> >Enlightenment is very important. I have explained above the differences of
> >opinions that we have. I teach to obey the Living Master, and we will regain
> >our lost access to the Supreme Merciful Father.
>
> He is so merciful that He punishes by transmigration of souls, death,
> doom and gloom, punishment by going into hell for eternity.
He is merciful if we will repent and fall in the dust at the Master's feet.
If we have too much ego to do that, then we will remain subject to our own
karmas.
>
> Heyl Michael, which is He? Merciful Love, or hateful punishment? He
> cannot be both.
You are looking at it wrongly. Which are we? We can go back to him, or we
can go back down into lower species. It is up to us. He is definitely
merciful, if we will have faith in the Master.
> >>
> >> And a major part of your control by fear of any possible disciples you
> >> may find.
> >
> >It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
> >likely end up in Hell.
>
> Michael, is God merciful, or not? Do not give God attributes He cannot
> have.
Yes, he is merciful, if we will have faith in HIM, when he incarnates himself
here, as a Saint.
>
> peace brother Michael
>
> Kenneth
peace brother Kenneth
Michael
>
> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
sh...@my-deja.com
"Michael Shealy" <Toucht...@bwn.net> wrote:
> So Master M, where is all the Bible reading (typing)?
>
> Certainly there are many references therein, blessing eating the pig
> (oops, sorry all you Jewish folks) and other assorted animals.
We can find good reliable items in the Bible, but others are not helpful,
because they have been altered and corrupted.
>
> We are really just turning somewhere else that supports The Master's
> Teachings, right? Karma, say isn't that the old "action-reaction"
> theory?
Yes.
> I hope that's still in effect in the old by and by, Maja
> Samahdi and all that.
>
> Nam, now that's in "Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's" isn't it?
I don't know.
>
> BTW what is this Sant Mat stuff you are touting brother? You have
> some really cool meditation techniques? One's that nobody else knows?
I must have posted about 4000 or 5000 postings by now. They are in the Deja
Archives written by "Shabd," or "Michael Martin."
We have to have love and devotion for a True Master, in order to contact the
Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit within us by meditation. That power, which is the
real form of the Master, will take us back to the Supreme Being.
These teachings are not "new." They are billions of years old.
>
> > Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and
> confidence in
> > the Master."
> >
> The Confidence Master, I like this....you might sell it.
I am giving spirituality away for free.
>
> Mikey
> It's never too late for a happy childhood.
Michael Martin
>
> <sh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:848gcs$jo6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > "Insistence on a strict vegetarian diet and on non-killing, etc., is
> to
> > prevent us from accruing more harmful karmas, which would greatly
> impede our
> > progress. This is only the first or the introductory part. When
> you get
> > Nam, you will receive the instructions and will be given the proper
> techique.
> > Then progress will depend on your efforts, devotion, faith and
> confidence in
> > the Master."
> >
> > From letter #258 in "Light on Sant Mat," by Maharaj Charan Singh Ji,
> > published by Radha Soami Satsang Beas, India.
> >
> > Maharaj Ji has mentioned FAITH, which has been discussed a lot,
> lately.
> > Also, he has given his opinion of the vegetarian diet. Our karmic
> load is
> > already so heavy, that we don't need to be adding more karmas to it,
> > especially heavy karmas involving KILLING.
> >
> > Michael Martin
> > A Sant Mat Guru
> >
> >
iam...@on.the.net
>
>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
>down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
>way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
>phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
Kenneth
iam...@on.the.net
iam...@on.the.net
sh...@my-deja.com
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
> >down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
> >way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
> >phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
>
> Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
If you can't have faith in what I wrote, then just forget about it. I have
no problem with that.
>
> Kenneth
Michael Martin
>
> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>
> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
>
Bart Lidofsky
: they will kill animals for us.
:
: > Waste is sinful.
:
: Then put it in the woods. Why eat it? Why put flesh in your system.
Do you have any idea what would happen if we let all food animals
go free? Obviously not.
Bart Lidofsky
Bart Lidofsky
: Karma = past experience / past life Karma comes in GOOD Karma (in the
: Bible good deeds are rewarded seven-fold, while sins are rewarded
: you ??)
What is the difference between good karma and bad karma?
Bart Lidofsky
Bart Lidofsky
: Jesus is not living, of course, but his followers claim he is the only true master
: as well. That makes 6.
: Obviously only one can be the "only one".
In Jewish tradition, in every generation there is someone who is
fit to be the Messiah (and may be more). Only through success can this
person actually become the Messiah.
But some guys just can't get hard without having people believe
that they are God.
Bart Lidofsky
iam...@on.the.net
>In article <5khuODfynkBPV3SUqwm4=FWR...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> Ok Michael,
>>
>> You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
>>
>> Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell? Why are
>> they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their
>karma.
>> Yes?
>
>Actually, Kenneth, it's not obvious at all.
Agreed. I made a statement here that cannot be proved. Although if one
believes in karma, this is a logical conclusion. I do however, believe
these people have purposely chosen this role for themselves.
>I found a few of your
>earlier points well-made, but you seem to be moving into a more rigid
>way of thinking here.
Hmmm, thanks for this, I will think about what you say.
>How can one judge another's plight and the reason
>for it?
We cannot truly judge, due to the fact that we all have choice.......
But the cause of their choices are very clear. They do not believe in a
God of Love, Peace, Joy and Happiness. And of course, Abundance.
>Can we look at the starving, diseased, the poor and believe -
>oh yea - they were *really* debauched in a former life?
Yes, we can. But of course, one's belief is not always correct.
>What if that
>role were chosen instead as a way to serve humanity?
It is difficult to imagine the starving and almost dead as serving
humanity?? grin. But I know what you mean. So my reply would be, they
have not chosen to serve humanity, but want humanity to be victims of
their suffering. That is, they want sorrow and compassion for
themselves, with the attendant guilt trips humanity experiences when
they do not assist the suffering.
Which is why the starving and suffering do not do anything to help
themselves. They have the choice of asking for the return of their
Abundance from God, given them at creation, or continue to suffer.
Their education should be of a God of Love and Abundance, but you cannot
eat this message, so it would be rejected immediately. Also who will
educate them?? Is there anyone on this planet enlightened enough to do
so, as Jesus and Buddha did?
>As an instrument
>for enlightenment? What path might Buddha have taken had he not
>encountered the pitiful characters outside of his family's estate?
This has happened only once [as far as I am aware] in the history of man
as happened to the wonderful teacher, Buddha.
As there are millions suffering, the chances of one or two becoming
enlightened are very good. Suffering is a good teacher, and makes one
turn to, or away from God.
But Buddha himself was not a sufferer, he was well off. It was only when
he saw the suffering of others, that he began to think about 'why do
they suffer'?? I conclude his self-enlightenment may be a result of this
thinking. By realizing they had choice to suffer or not? I think aloud
here.
>> Now do not make excuses, why is, oh say Glenn [no offence Glenn, you
>are
>> someone we all know, and have told us of your disabilities], not in
>> hell, rather that in a wheel chair??
>>
>> Because there is no hell, but Glenn has chosen his karmic debt to be
>as
>> he is.
>
>In one breath (earlier post)you say that karma is not relevant (I
>agree). And next you appear to give value to karma and suggest that
>Glenn has something to pay off.
You are correct. I do not believe in karma, but was using Michael's
belief in karma as a question to Michael. I do not believe in hell
either, and I am trying to show Michael an alternative to the belief in
hell, as taught by himself.
As an aside, Glenn does believe he is repaying karma. I do not believe
him. He has chosen his body as a lesson, for him to realize that the
body is of no value in enlightenment, and is just a teaching aid for his
own Self Realization. The human body has no value in anything, except in
showing it has no value.
Sickness and suffering are chosen by those who need a lesson about the
body. This lesson is of the uselessness of the body in attaining God
Realisation.
>Perhaps he is adding credits to his
>karmic account instead. I merely contend that we DO NOT know and the
>sooner we let go of our concepts, the less encumbered we will be. HN
Yes, you are correct, and I teach detachment from all, especially from
suffering. I am trying to teach/show Michael, and Glenn [with whom I
have had dialogues on similar matters], that there is no hell, and no
karma, but rather that we make choices to suffer, wherein these choices
are based on false thinking, ie the illusion [maya] of karma and hell.
The excuses people use for suffering of any kind are karma, last
judgement and hell; as a re-payment of karma.
Not required, as God is a God of Love, and so would not punish.
I hope I have clarified my position.
In the final analysis of course, I have not the right to interfere with
other's choices, especially their beliefs, but usenet is for
discussion.....
iam...@on.the.net
>In article <Wt5qONaOGy0HY=wzN=UHQna...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:39:12 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for your reply.
>>
>> However, according to your teachings souls may transmigrate to both
>> animals and plants.
>
>That is right, soul can transmigrate to animals, birds, insects, reptiles,
>water creatures, and plants.
>
>>
>> So there is *no* difference in killing animals or plants, as both have
>> souls.
>
>Both have souls, but the karma is like if you stole sombody's brand new
>Lincoln, compared to stealing a brand new Escort.
So according to you, it is ok to kill someone who is poor, and can only
afford an Escort?? But to not kill a Lincoln owner?
Michael, theft/killing is theft/killing. Regardless of what you
steal/kill, the results are the same. Humanity will punish you equally.
And besides, a person who can afford a Lincoln, will not suffer as much
as those who can only afford an Escort.
Lincoln owners will have more money, and can repurchase immediately,
whereas the Escort owners will be worse off financially, therefore their
suffering will be greater, as they cannot afford another car, nor the
higher insurance premiums that an insurance claim would bring into
effect.
Think Michael, think.
>If we have to kill something in order to live, then it shouls be the lowest
>life forms, and that would be the plant kingdom.
You are looking for excuses. A soul is a soul is a soul. All created by
God.
>That would incur the least
>karma. Killing an animal, which is just below humans, would incur relatively
>more karma.
A human soul is a soul. An animal soul is a human soul, transmigrated,
according to you. A plant soul is a human soul transmigrated according
to you.
A soul is created by God. So there is no difference in killing a human
soul, an animal soul, [which is a human soul in disgrace], or a plant
soul [which is a human soul in disgrace].
Your thinking is very poor, and shows you do not understand that there
is no transmigration of souls, and also that a veggie or meat diet is of
no consequence in enlightenment.
You see Michael, it is not the body that attains enlightenment, but the
soul.
Please have a rethink about your pet theories.
>> In cutting cabbage for instance, the cabbage suffers, and dies, and
>> begins to rot. So the cabbage is 'killed'.
>
>Yes, but that killing can be justifed, because we have to kill something to
>eat and live. Killing animals can't be similarly justified, because God has
>provided us with so many vegetarian alternatives.
Your killing of anything is not justified, as all have souls, according
to you.
You are justifying your pet theories.
Please re-think your position here.
>> I also disagree that one type of diet causes karma to come between man
>> and God and slow down enlightenment. The body has no say in
>> enlightenment, it is a function of the Self.
>
>Well, then, according to your theory, why are our "Selves," operating on this
>physical plane?
Well, you *do* know the answer to this question, because you yourself
teach this.
We are separated from God. We, as 'Self', separated from God. That is,
the Self created this body in it's attempts to separate Self from God.
That is why we try to attain 'Self Realization'. To get back to God.
Self = the Image of God.
>Why are we not in higher spiritual regions, where there is
>more spiritual light and sound, where the Father can be seen and heard? IMHO,
>our "Self" is operating here because of "karma," which has been assigned to
>it.
Self is operating here because it 'separated' from God. Actually it
cannot, because we are always Self, therefore are always God. That is
why we seek to 'return to God via Self Realization'.
The belief in karma is a trap, designed to stop us from returning to
God. Which you want for yourself and others, according to your
teachings.
>You act like we have free will.
We do not have free will. I have taught this from day one usenet.
>That is antithetical to the truth.
Correct, we both know this.
> We
>are like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
But we should not let karma do this, because God did not create karma.
Self did in it's attempt to separate; therefore karma is illusion. Put
this illusion of karma behind you, and realize you have the choice to do
so, if you wish.
Love and blessings to you and yours,
iam...@on.the.net
The answer to all your comments in this thread is brief:
They are false, illusions. [maya]
You yourself have taught that we separated from God.
This separation was caused by "SELF", which was God's creation, in the
Image of God Himself.
This Self has separated itself from God [well it thinks is has], and
that is why we are 'here', and not aware of Self or God anymore. eg
'Heaven'
Anything not created by God cannot exist, so all here is illusion.
Including all our pet theories, and pet theories are all the opposite of
God.
None of your theories are based on the Love, Peace, Joy, Abundance and
Happiness of God.
All you wish to see is suffering, and therefore you can only teach
suffering.
Have you ever tried to see people as they really are? As huge Beings of
Light, created in God's image?
Try it, you will see then that you too are a huge Being of Light, and
therefore can 'return' to God at any instant you wish.
Peace and love to you Michael.
I have snipped your long reply, for which I thank you.
Please re-think your understanding of the separation of Self from God,
as this was the very first mistake Self made, and consequently
everything else is a mistake, including the belief in karma, hell, last
judgement, transmigration of souls and other doom and gloom theories.
Meditate on the attributes of God, and that you were given these at
Creation.
iam...@on.the.net
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>>our "Self" is operating here because of "karma," which has been assigned to
>>it. You act like we have free will. That is antithetical to the truth. We
>>are like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
>
>
>How can a puppet make good or bad karma in the first place, since a puppet has no
>control over its actions?
Brilliant!!
I wish I had thought of this! :-))
Jahnu
Lidofsky),wrote:
You enjoy the good karma and suffer the bad one. In other words, if
you suffer in the present you can understand you did something bad in
the past, and if you enjoy now it means that you did something good in
the past. Similarly if you do something bad in the present you will
suffer the reactions in the future and if you do something good you
will enjoy the reactions.
In this way karma exists along with free will. Karma simply means
actions and reactions. Once we act we are bound to receive the
reactions, but we are at any moment free to change our activities so
that they will bring about good reactions in the future. The art is to
know how. This is described by the vedic sages in the Vedas. Over and
above that one can get free from the bandage of his own actions only
by changing ones activities from being selfishly oriented to being
oriented towards God or Krishna. The science of how to act for the
pleasure of God rather than for one's own pleasure is called bhakti
and is explained by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita.
The secret is that as one learns to direct one's actions towards
Krishna's pleasure, one experiences a far greater pleasure than if one
were to act only for one's own or someone else's pleasure.
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Jahnu
Lidofsky),wrote:
>sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>: they will kill animals for us.
>:
>: > Waste is sinful.
>:
>: Then put it in the woods. Why eat it? Why put flesh in your system.
>
> Do you have any idea what would happen if we let all food animals
>go free? Obviously not.
Do you have any idea how few food animals we would have if we didn't
raise them for slaughter?
Do you have any idea how fast all the food animals would reduce in
number if we stopped eating them?
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Jahnu
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
>>down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
>>way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
>>phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
>
>Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
VEGETARIAN FLESH-EATER HUMAN
Hands / hoofs Claws as append- Hands as
as appendages ages appendages
Teeth flat Teeth sharp Teeth flat
Alkaline saliva; Acid saliva; no Alkaline saliva;
much ptyalin ptyalin enzyme much ptyalin
enzyme enzyme
Stomach acid 10 Much strong hydro- Stomach acid 10
times weaker chloride acid in times weaker than
than meat-eaters stomach meat-eaters
Long intestines Short intestines; Long intestines;
to digest nutrients rapidly excrete digest nutrients in
in plant foods fully putrefying flesh plant foods fully
Sweats to cool Pants to cool Sweats to cool
body body body
Sips water Laps water Sips water
Vitamin C obtained Vitamin C manu- Vitamin C obtained
solely from diet factured internally solely from diet
Exists largely on Consumes flesh Diet depends
fruit and nut diet; exclusively on environment
Grasping hands No manual dexte- Grasping hands
capable of using terity capable of using
tools and weapons tools and weapons
Inoffensive Putrid Offensiveness of excrement
excrement excrement depends on diet
Snack feeder Large meals infre- Combines worst of
frequently taken both worlds
Predominantly Preference for salty Likes both sweet and
sweet toothed / fatty food salty / fatty food
Likes to savor Bolts down Likes to savor food,
food, experiment food experiment with
with variety, com- variety, com-
bine flavors bine flavors
Large brains, able Small brains, less Large brains, able
to rationalize capable of adaptive to rationalize
behavior
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www.iskcon.com, www.iskcon.org, www.iskcon.net
Jahnu
>x-no-archive:yes
>
>>our "Self" is operating here because of "karma," which has been assigned to
>>it. You act like we have free will. That is antithetical to the truth. We
>>are like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
>
>
>How can a puppet make good or bad karma in the first place, since a puppet has no
>control over its actions?
The human puppet has control over his actions by the desires he
cultivates. As he desires he will act, or rather as he desires
material nature under the direction of the Supersoul will carry out
his desires in the form of activities.
>
>
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www.iskcon.com, www.iskcon.org, www.iskcon.net
Jahnu
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
>>down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
>>way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
>>phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
>
>Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
The Hunger Argument
Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
million.
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
Human beings in America: 243 million
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by
U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein waste by cycling grain through livestock: 99
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20.OOO
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16
The Environmental Argument
Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from
fossil fuels.
Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free
diet: 50 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising:
85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce
meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds
Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador,
Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S.
housecat.
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every 1/4 pound hamburger: 55
sq.ft.
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical
rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1.000 per year
The Cancer Argument
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week
vs. less than once a week: 4 times
For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or
more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs.
sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times
The Natural Resources Argument
Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.:
livestock portion.
Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to
float a destroyer.
Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2.500
Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not
subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: 35 dollars a pound
Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no
longer subsidized: 89 dollars
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a
meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260
Barrels of oil imported into U.S. daily: 6.8 million
Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient
factory farming of meat: 34.5
Percentage returned from least efficient plant food: 32.8
Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present
meat-centered diet: 33
The Cholesterol Argument
Number of U.S. medical schools: 125
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30
Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four
years in medical school: 25 hours
Most common cause of death in U.S.: heart attack
How frequently a heart attack kills in U.S.: every 45 seconds
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 perc.
Risk for average U.S. man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15 perc.
Meat industry claims you should not be concerned about your blood
cholesterol if it is: normal
Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your
blood cholesterol is ÐnormalÐ: over 50 perc.
The Antibiotic Argument
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in
1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of
antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding
of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support
The Pesticide Argument
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by grains:
1
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by fruits:
4
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet suppl. by dairy
products: 23
Percentage of pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by meat: 55
Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat-eating mothers vs.
non meat-eating: 35 times higher
What USDA tells us: meat is inspected
Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxin
chemicals including dioxin and DDT: less than 0.00004
The Ethical Argument
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.: 500.000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job injury in
U.S:slaughterhouse worker
Cost to render animal unconscious with captive bolt pistol before
slaughter.: 1 cent
Reason given by meat industry for non using that pistol: too expensive
The Survival Argument
Athlete to win Ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time
winner) Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
Largest meat eater than ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex
Last sighting of Tyrannosaurus Rex: 100.000.000 B.C.
Famous pop stars - vegetarians:
-------------------------------
Candice Bergen, David Bowie, Paul Mc Cartney, Darryl Hannah, Janet
Jackson, k.d.lang, Sting
'I am a great eater of beef, and I believe that does harm to my wit.'
--William Shakespeare "Twelfth Night," Act I, Scene 3
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Jahnu
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
>>down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
>>way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
>>phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
>
>Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
Facts excerpted from the Pulitzer Prize nominated
DIET FOR A NEW AMERICA
By John Robbins
**** **** ****
Human population of United States: 243,000,000
Number of human beings who could be fed by the grain and soybeans
eaten by U.S. livestock: 1,300,000,000
Sacred food of Native Americans: Corn
Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by human beings: 20
Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in United States eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90
Percentage of carbohydrate wasted by cycling grain through livestock:
99
Percentage of dietary fibre wasted by cycling grain through livestock:
100
How frequently a child dies of starvation: Every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on 1 acre of land: 20,000
Pounds of beef that can be produced on 1 acre of land: 165
Percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce beef: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce
1 pound of feedlot beef: 16
Pounds of protein fed to chickens to produce
1 pound of protein as chicken flesh: 5 pounds
Pounds of protein fed to hogs to produce
1 pound of protein as hog flesh: 7.5 pounds
Number of pure vegetarians who can be fed on the amount of land needed
to feed 1 person consuming meat-based diet: 20
Number of people who will starve to death this year: 60,000,000
Number of people who could be adequately fed by the grain saved if
Americans their intake of meat by 10%: 60,000,000
**** **** ****
Historic cause of demise of many great civilizations: Topsoil
depletion
Percentage of original U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Amount of U.S. cropland lost each year to soil erosion:
4,000,000 acres, the size of Connecticut
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly associated with livestock
raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest which have been cleared to create
cropland to produce a meat-centred diet: 260,000,000
How often an acre of U.S. trees disappears: Every 8 seconds
Amount of trees spared per year by each individual who switches to
pure vegetarian diet: 1 acre
**** **** ****
A driving force behind the destruction of the tropical rainforests:
American meat habit
Amount of meat imported annually by U.S. from Costa Rica, El
Salvador,Guatemala, Nicaragua,Honduras and Panama: 200,000,000 pounds
Amount of meat eaten by average person in Costa Rica, El
Salvador,Guatemala, Nicaragua,Honduras and Panama: Less than average
American housecat
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical
rainforests and related habitats: 1,000/year
**** **** ****
Length of time the world's petroleum reserves would last if all human
beings ate meat-centred diets: 13 years
Length of time the world's petroleum reserves would last if all human
beings are vegetarian diet: 260 years
Principal reason for U.S. military intervention in Persian Gulf:
Dependence on foreign oil
Barrels of oil imported daily by U.S.: 6,800,000
Percentage of energy return (as food energy per fossil energy
expended) of most energy efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5%
Percentage of energy return (as food energy per fossil energy
expended) of least energy efficient plant food: 32.8%
Pounds of soybeans produced by the amount of fossil fuel needed to
produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 40
Percentage of raw materials consumed in U.S. for all purposes
presently consumed to produce current meat-centred diet: 33
Percentage of raw materials consumed in U.S. for all purposes needed
to produce fully vegetarian diet: 2
User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the
United States: Livestock production
Quantity of water used in the production of the average cow sufficient
to: Float a destroyer
Water needed to produce 1 pound of wheat: 25 gallons
Water needed to reduce 1 pound of meat: 2,500 gallons
Cost of common hamburger meat if water used by meat industry was not
subsidized by U.S. taxpayers: $35/pound
Current cost for pound of protein from wheat: $1.50
Current cost for pound of protein from beefsteak: $15.40
Cost for pound of protein from beefsteak if U.S. taxpayers ceased
subsidizing meat industry's use of water: $89
**** **** ****
Production of excrement by total U.S. human population: 12,000
pounds/second (DON'T FORGET TO FLUSH!)
Production of excrement by U.S. livestock: 250,000 pounds/second
Sewage systems in U.S. cities: Common
Sewage systems in U.S. feedlots: Nil
Amount of waste produced annually by U.S. livestock in confinement
operations which is not recycled: 1 billion tons
Relative concentration of feedlot wastes compared to raw domestic
sewage: Ten to several hundred times more highly concentrated
Where feedlot waste often ends up: In our water
**** **** ****
Most common cause of death in U.S.: Heart attack
Risk of death from heart attack by average American man: 50%
Risk of death from heart attack by average American vegetarian man:
15%
Risk of death from heart attack by average American pure vegetarian
man: 4%
Amount you reduce your risk of heart attack by reducing your
consumption of meat, dairy products and eggs 10%: 9%
Amount you reduce the risk of heart attack by reducing your
consumption of meat, dairy products and eggs by 50%: 45%
Amount you reduce your risk of heart attack by reducing your
consumption of meat, dairy products and eggs by 100%: 90%
Rise in blood cholesterol level from consuming 1 egg per day: 12%
Rise in heart attack risk from 12% rise in blood cholesterol: 24%
Meat, dairy and egg industries claim there is no reason to be
concerned about your blood cholesterol as long as it is: "normal"
Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries
if your blood cholesterol is "normal": over 50%
Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries
if you do not consume saturated fat and cholesterol: 5%
Leading sources of saturated fat and cholesterol in American diets:
Meat, dairy products and eggs
World populations with high meat intakes who do not have
correspondingly high rates of colon cancer: None
World populations with low meat intakes who do not have
correspondingly low rates of colon cancer: None
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat daily compared
to women who eat meat less than once a week: 4 times higher
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat eggs daily compared
to women who eat eggs less than once a week: 3 times higher
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat butter and cheese 3
or more times a week compared to women who eat these foods less than
once a week: 3 times higher
Part of female chicken's body that produces eggs: Ovaries
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or
more times a week compared to women who eat eggs less than once a
week: 3 times higher
Foods males in U.S. are conditioned to think of as "manly": Animal
products
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume
meats, cheese, eggs and milk daily compared to men who eat these foods
sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times higher
**** **** ****
Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein
according to World Health Organization: 4.5%
Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein
according to Food and Nutrition Board of the U.S.D.A: 6%
Recommended percentage of daily calories to be derived from protein
according to National Research Council: 8%
Percentage of calories as protein in wheat: 17%
Percentage of calories as protein in broccoli: 45%
Percentage of calories as protein in rice: 8%
Disease linked to inadequate protein consumption: Kwashiorkor
Number of cases of kwashiorkor in United States: Virtually none
Diseases linked to excess protein consumption: Osteoporosis and Kidney
failure
Number of cases of osteoporosis and kidney failure in the United
States: Tens of millions
The average measurable bone loss of female meat-eaters at age 65: 35%
The average measurable bone loss of female vegetarians at age 65: 18%
Health status of pure vegetarians from many populations of the world
according to the Food and Nutrition Board of the National Academy of
Sciences: Excellent
The dairy industry tells us: Whole milk is 3.5% fat
The dairy industry doesn't tell us:
That 3.5% figure is based on weight, and most of the weight in milk is
water
The dairy industry doesn't want us to know:
The amount of calories as fat in whole milk is 50%
The Dairy Council tells us: Milk is nature's most perfect food
The Dairy Council doesn't tell us:
Milk is nature's food for a baby calf, who has four stomachs, will
double its weight in 47 days and is destined to weigh 300 pounds
within a year
The Dairy Council tells children:
To grow up big and strong, drink lots of milk
The Dairy Council occasionally tells children:
The enzyme necessary for digestion of milk is lactase
The Dairy Council never tells children:
20% of caucasian children and 80% of Black children have no lactase in
their intestines.
The meat,dairy and eggs industries don't tell us:
The diseases which are commonly prevented, consistently improved, and
sometimes cured by llow-fat vegetarian diet include:
Strokes Heart disease Osteoporosis
Kidney stones Breast cancer Colon cancer
Prostate cancer Pancreatic cancer Ovarian cancer
Cervical cancer Stomach cancer Endometrial cancer
Diabetes Hypoglycaemia Kidney disease
Peptic ulcers Constipation Haemorrhoids
Hiatal hernias Diverticulosis Obesity
Gallstones Hypertension Asthma
Salmonellosis Trichinosis Irritable colon
syndrome
**** **** ****
Chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied
by meat: 55%
Pesticide residues in the U.S. diet supplied by Dairy products: 23%
Pesticide residues in U.S. diet supplied by vegetables: 6%
Pesticide residues in U.S. diet supplied by fruits: 4%
Pesticide residues in U.S. diet supplied by grains: 1%
Percentage of U.S. mother's milk
containing significant levels of DDT: 99%
Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk
containing significant levels of DDT: 8%
Relative pesticide contamination in breast milk of meat-eating mothers
compared to pesticide contamination in breast milk of vegetarian
mothers:
35 times as high
Percentage of male college students sterile in 1950: 0.5
Percentage of male college students sterile in 1978: 25
Sperm count of average American male compared to 30 years ago: Down
30%
Principle reason for sterility and sperm count reduction in U.S.
males:
Chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides, including dioxin, DDT, etc
Percentage of chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticide residues in American
diet attributable to meats, dairy products, fish and eggs: 94%
The meat Board tells us not to be concerned about the dioxin and other
pesticides in today's beef because: the quantities are to small
The meat board doesn't want us to know:
How potent dioxin and the other pesticides are.
The meat board particularly doesn't want us to know:
A mere ounce of dioxin could kill 10 million people
The USDA tells us: Our meat is inspected
The USDA doesn't tell us: Less than 1 out of every quarter million
slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical residues
The dye used for many years by the USDA for many years to stamp meats
"Choice", "Prime", or "U.S. No.1 USDA": Violet Dye No.1.
Current status of Violet Dye No.1:
Banned as proven carcinogen
**** **** ****
Wingspan of average leghorn chicken: 26 inches
Space average leghorn chicken given in egg factories: 6 inches
Number of 700 plus pounds pigs confined to space the size of a twin
bed in typical factory farm: 3
Number of animals killed for meat per hour in U.S.:
500,000
Occupation with highest employee turnover rate in U.S.:
Slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest employee rate of injury in U.S.:
Slaughterhouse worker
Cost to render an animal unconscious prior to slaughter with captive
bolt pistol so that process is done humanely: 1 penny
Reason given by meat industry for not utilizing captive bolt pistol:
Too expensive
**** **** ****
Percentage of total antibiotics used in U.S. fed routinely to
livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in
1960: 13
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in
1988: 91
Reason:
Breeding of antibiotic resistant bacteria in factory farms due to
routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock
Effectiveness of all "wonder-drug" antibiotics:
Declining rapidly
Reason:
Feeding of antibiotics resistant bacteria in factory farms due to
routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock
Response by entire European Economic Community to routine feeding of
antibiotics to livestock:
Ban (Don't let down your guard, EU!)
Response by American meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine
feeding of antibiotics to livestock: Full and complete support
Only man to win ironman Triathlon more than twice: Dave Scott, 6 time
winner
Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
World record holder for 24 hour triathlon, swim 4.8 miles, cycle 185
miles, run 52.5 miles: Sixto Linares
Food choices of Sixti Linares: Strict vegetarian
Athlete who most totally dominated Olympic sport in track and field
history: Edwin Moses, undefeated in 8 years, 400 meter hurdles
Food choices of Edwin Moses: Vegetarian
Other notable vegetarian athletes:
* Stan Price: World record-bench press
* Robert Sweetgall: World's premier ultra-distance walker
* Paavo Nurmi: 20 World's records in distance running, 9 olympic
medals
* Bill Pickering: World record swimming english channel
* Murray Rose: World records 400 and 1500 meter freestyles
* Andreas Cahling: Winner Mr International body building
championships
* Roy Hilligan: Winner Mr America body building championships
* Pierreo Verot: World's record for downhill endurance skiing
* Estelle Gray and Cherly Marek: World's record for cross country
tandem cycling
* James and Johnathon deDonato: World's record for distance
butterfly stroke swimming
* Ridgely Abele: Winner of 8 national championships in
Karate,including U.S.
Karate Association World Championships
**** **** ****
For the complete documentation of all the facts contained in
"Realities 1989", read DIET FOR A NEW AMERICA.
_____________________________________________
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Leo Smith
Jahnu wrote:
> The Hunger Argument
>
> Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
> million.
>
> Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if
> Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10 perc.: 60 million
>
Amount of global warming produced by transporting grain from where it is produced
to where it is needed.
Probably ten times the fuel already used to get Americans to the Mcdonalds and back
every day.
Amount of arms needed to overthrow local governments who don't want all that grain
being fed to their people by the USA.
About ten times what we have available.
Amount of babies that would grow up and, lacking anything else interesting to do,
have yet more babies....
more than we could feed.
This isn'rt a hunger problem.
Its a socio-political-cultural-educational and historical one. Hunger is the
symptom. Not the cause.
> The Environmental Argument
>
> Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
>
> Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from
> fossil fuels.
>
> Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free
> diet: 50 times more
99% of all fossil fuels are burnt to keep cars on the roads, people warm and in
their offices and homes, and in industrial production.
Very little fuel is used in agrculture. It takes more energy to cook vegetables as
well....
Get facts right first.
:-)
John Mercer
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:28:18 -0800, iam...@on.the.net,wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our
> >>attention down and out from the eye center. It interferes with
> >>concentration in that way. That is why many of the world's great
> >>artists, thinkers, and phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be
> >>vegetarians.
> >
> >Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
>
> Facts excerpted from the Pulitzer Prize nominated
> DIET FOR A NEW AMERICA
> By John Robbins
> **** **** ****
---snip---
>
> For the complete documentation of all the facts contained in
> "Realities 1989", read DIET FOR A NEW AMERICA.
"The Vegetarian Society of Minnesota strongly recommends that you not
draw upon the works of John Robbins for health advice or other factual
information. These works are well known to contain many glaring errors
regarding nutrition, the environment, and other scientific issues. In
particular, there are much better books available for advice on
vegetarian nutrition."
John
sh...@my-deja.com
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:05:26 -0500, "netwatcher" <nw...@aol.moc> wrote:
>
> >x-no-archive:yes
> >
> >>our "Self" is operating here because of "karma," which has been assigned to
> >>it. You act like we have free will. That is antithetical to the truth. We
> >>are like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
> >
> >
> >How can a puppet make good or bad karma in the first place, since a puppet has no
> >control over its actions?
We have a tiny amount of free will. We are 99.9% puppets, but even so, there
is a tiny amount of free will left, and we can sow good or bad seeds within
those limitations or conditions.
Free will would mean by definition "free." But it is not that, because we
can't select our country in which to be born, we can't select our parents, we
can't select our education, health, wealth, poverty, or riches. All of that
is preordained, but even though most of our life is already decided, there is
still enough free will, that we can sow good seeds or bad seeds, but even the
sowing of those seeds is influenced by so many conditions. That is why I
wrote that we have no "free will." We are not totally free, but we do have a
tiny amount of free will, within certain conditions and limitations.
>
> Brilliant!!
>
> I wish I had thought of this! :-))
Michael Martin
sh...@my-deja.com
chek...@bahnhof.se wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:05:26 -0500, "netwatcher" <nw...@aol.moc>,wrote:
>
> >x-no-archive:yes
> >
> >>our "Self" is operating here because of "karma," which has been assigned to
> >>it. You act like we have free will. That is antithetical to the truth. We
> >>are like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
> >
> >
> >How can a puppet make good or bad karma in the first place, since a puppet has no
> >control over its actions?
>
> cultivates.
Just having desires will not give us control of the mind, unless our desire
is for the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit.
Whatever actions we sow now will be reaped in following lives, not in this
life. This life as already been planned out.
> As he desires he will act, or rather as he desires
> material nature under the direction of the Supersoul will carry out
> his desires in the form of activities.
But, we need to get control of our mind. I wrote about what Paul wrote in
"Romans." He wrote that he wanted to be spiritual, but yet he was always
committing sins. It is not so easy to control our mind. It takes for most
of us a lifetime of meditation. Mind has to be taken to its True Home, the
Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit, for it to be completely brought under control.
Then we will sow good seeds and not bad seeds.
Michael Martin
>
> >
> >
>
> _____________________________________________
> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
> www.iskcon.com, www.iskcon.org, www.iskcon.net
Jahnu
<snip>
>Whatever actions we sow now will be reaped in following lives, not in this
>life. This life as already been planned out.
This you know because of...?
-Jahnu
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Jahnu
Mercer),wrote:
>"The Vegetarian Society of Minnesota strongly recommends that you not
>draw upon the works of John Robbins for health advice or other factual
>information. These works are well known to contain many glaring errors
>regarding nutrition, the environment, and other scientific issues. In
>particular, there are much better books available for advice on
>vegetarian nutrition."
I don't think this report was so much about vegetarian nutrition as it
was about statistics showing the foolishness and the cruelty of a
meat-based diet.
_____________________________________________
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netwatcher
>>draw upon the works of John Robbins for health advice or other factual
>>information.
>
>was about statistics showing the foolishness and the cruelty of a
>meat-based diet.
Nor will it save meat-eaters from the premature death that meat-eating often
brings. It does, however, provide a salve for the conscience of the meat-eater,
and lulls the mind into a false sense of complacency about one's diet.
The fact remains that Robbin's book contains powerful arguments against eating
meat at many, many levels, and never would have been published if it was incorrect
from cover to cover. And I also wonder why it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
if its overall message and conclusions are substantially erroneous.
And, of course, the report (and Robbin's mistakes) do not alleviate the suffering
of the animals and humans who participate in the meat producing industry.
Dan Barkye
As far as my higher self tells me, current life allows for reaping
previous sowings, because every combination of action/time is
possible, if only because what you say implies a serial streaming
of time, and time as such doesn't exist; in fact, there is no time,
only on our material plain we have this illusion.
Human-beings with enough "luck" to have a current life action/
time combination, will exhaust their karma faster and this is a bless,
because then, some will terminate their earth sojourn in current life.
Danny,
http://sites.netscape.net/dbjesi
http;//sites.netscape.net/dbjesi/meditexplain
You will be wellcome to my sites dedicated to The Teaching of The Art of
Meditation.
Jahnu
<snip>
>The fact remains that Robbin's book contains powerful arguments against eating
>meat at many, many levels, and never would have been published if it was incorrect
>from cover to cover. And I also wonder why it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
>if its overall message and conclusions are substantially erroneous.
>
>And, of course, the report (and Robbin's mistakes) do not alleviate the suffering
>of the animals and humans who participate in the meat producing industry.
Precisely
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________
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iam...@on.the.net
>In article <l+pwOHhwDiWafe6G=Q7sC8...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
>> >down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
>> >way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
>> >phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
>>
>> Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
>
>If you can't have faith in what I wrote, then just forget about it. I have
>no problem with that.
>
>>
>> Kenneth
>
>Michael Martin
>>
You are correct, I have no faith in your teachings of doom and gloom,
death judgement and hell.
If you make such statements above, unfounded, you have to be considered
a liar. Sorry, but that is how it is....
Kenneth
iam...@on.the.net
>On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:20:22 -0800, iam...@on.the.net,wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
>>>down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
>>>way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
>>>phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
>>
>>Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
This thread is about the spiritual eating or not eating meat, and how
that affects enlightenment.
>HOW TO WIN AN ARGUMENT WITH A MEAT EATER
>
>The New York Times, Tuesday, June 20, 1989
>
>
>The Hunger Argument
>
>Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60
>million.
This has nothing to do with eating or not eating meat.
But Jahnu.....
If you had your way, then suddenly, when all meat production world wide
is stopped, there will be countless millions of people un-emeployed.
How may more starving and dying people would there be then??
iam...@on.the.net
>Free will would mean by definition "free." But it is not that, because we
>can't select our country in which to be born, we can't select our parents, we
>can't select our education, health, wealth, poverty, or riches.
As you believe in karma........ you karma from previous lives
predetermines you current situation.
That means you yourself chose it. By your previous actions.
In the very next post of yours in this thread, I see you wrote this:
>Whatever actions we sow now will be reaped in following lives, not in this
>life. This life as already been planned out.
Yet you deny this above????
You are confused, and need to sit down and think about karma, my friend.
iam...@on.the.net
> That is why I
>wrote that we have no "free will." We are not totally free, but we do have a
>tiny amount of free will, within certain conditions and limitations.
Limitations and conditions remove the 'free' from 'free' will.
That is, it is no longer free.
C'mon Michael.
John Mercer
> >>"The Vegetarian Society of Minnesota strongly recommends that you not
> >>draw upon the works of John Robbins for health advice or other factual
> >>information.
> >
> >I don't think this report was so much about vegetarian nutrition as it
> >was about statistics showing the foolishness and the cruelty of a
> >meat-based diet.
>
>
> Nor will it save meat-eaters from the premature death that meat-eating often
> brings.
Do you always confuse correlation with causation? Here's what happened
when some honest vegan researchers made an effort to select a
better-matched control group of omnivores:
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/313/7060/775
> It does, however, provide a salve for the conscience of the meat-eater,
> and lulls the mind into a false sense of complacency about one's diet.
That's a fine example of projection. Can you explain why those who claim
to be modifying their own diets to minimize animal deaths and suffering
know nothing at all (and are complacent) about the animal deaths and
suffering caused by their own food choices?
> The fact remains that Robbin's book contains powerful arguments against eating
> meat at many, many levels,
All of them profoundly fallacious, too.
> and never would have been published if it was incorrect
> from cover to cover.
Now that's a hoot!
> And I also wonder why it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
> if its overall message and conclusions are substantially erroneous.
Perhaps you should look into the meaning of the deceptive phrase
"nominated for a Pulitzer Prize," then!
> And, of course, the report (and Robbin's mistakes) do not alleviate the
> suffering of the animals and humans who participate in the meat producing
> industry.
But your babbling about the suffering associated with meat does nothing
to alleviate the suffering of the animals drowned, shredded, poisoned
and shot so that you may have cheap vegetables.
John
iam...@on.the.net
>And, of course, the report (and Robbin's mistakes) do not alleviate the suffering
>of the animals and humans who participate in the meat producing industry.
Agreed, but this will not stop meat eaters either, including myself.
BUT, and this is a big but, there will be many more millions of people
suffering if meat eating were stopped.
Those in the meat industry would suddenly be un-employed. Then the
starving would increase 10 fold, if not more.
Naw, chaps, let us eat meat, if we suffer it is our doing, and we suffer
not you.
Besides, we do not tell you what to eat, but then neither do the
animals.
If you do not like meat eaters because of moral reasons, well that is
your problem, not ours.
You will die before us, because of your feelings against us. These
feelings will create cancers and other diseases within yourselves.
grin......
he he he Kenneth
I await with bated breath all the do-gooders rushing in to tell me that
I am.............. [fill in here all your pet hates and phobia's about
meat eaters]
and get another cancer he he he
iam...@on.the.net
>>>"The Vegetarian Society of Minnesota strongly recommends that you not
>>>draw upon the works of John Robbins for health advice or other factual
>>>information.
>>
>>I don't think this report was so much about vegetarian nutrition as it
>>was about statistics showing the foolishness and the cruelty of a
>>meat-based diet.
>
>
>Nor will it save meat-eaters from the premature death that meat-eating often
>brings. It does, however, provide a salve for the conscience of the meat-eater,
>and lulls the mind into a false sense of complacency about one's diet.
>
>The fact remains that Robbin's book contains powerful arguments against eating
>meat at many, many levels, and never would have been published if it was incorrect
>from cover to cover.
Millions of books are sold as 'fact' every year. People are incredibly
gullible.... because it appears in a book, does not mean it is correct,
as gullible people just assume. It is usually money that makes most
authors write. [I have no idea if this comment applies to robbin].
>And I also wonder why it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
>if its overall message and conclusions are substantially erroneous.
What makes you think the Pulitzer Prize people are experts on meat
eating and vegetarians??
What are the criteria for the Pulitzer Prize? Certainly not eating
habits and their effects on humanity.
Jahnu
>This thread is about the spiritual eating or not eating meat, and how
>that affects enlightenment.
Why shouldn't we discuss that, too? In the Vedas it is said that out
of all people only a meat-eater cannot understand God. How can you
profess love for all of God's creatures and then involve yourself in
the cruelty of the meat-production? It's absurd. Meat-eating is
contrary to spiritual enlightenment.
>If you had your way, then suddenly, when all meat production world wide
>is stopped, there will be countless millions of people un-emeployed.
No they would have to grow grains and produce food instead.
>How may more starving and dying people would there be then??
It is a statistical fact that if more people were vegetarians there
would be a lot more food in the world and less would starve. Instead
of using all the food-grains for feeding animals and then eating them
people would be eating the food-grains directly which is much more
economical, since it takes 10 kg of plant protein to produce 1 kg of
meat protein.
regards
jahnu
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Jahnu
Mercer),wrote:
>That's a fine example of projection. Can you explain why those who claim
>to be modifying their own diets to minimize animal deaths and suffering
>know nothing at all (and are complacent) about the animal deaths and
>suffering caused by their own food choices?
Two wrongs don't make one right. The fact remains that it is
unecological, unethical, cruel, and very bad karma to eat meat.
>> The fact remains that Robbin's book contains powerful arguments against eating
>> meat at many, many levels,
>
>All of them profoundly fallacious, too.
What makes you think that?
>> and never would have been published if it was incorrect
>> from cover to cover.
>
>Now that's a hoot!
Well, listen who is hooting.
>> And I also wonder why it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
>> if its overall message and conclusions are substantially erroneous.
>
>Perhaps you should look into the meaning of the deceptive phrase
>"nominated for a Pulitzer Prize," then!
What's the big deal? There are countless of good arguments supporting
a plant-based diet for humans where as there are none in favor.
>But your babbling about the suffering associated with meat does nothing
>to alleviate the suffering of the animals drowned, shredded, poisoned
>and shot so that you may have cheap vegetables.
What are you talking about? Growing of grains and vegetables doesn't
necessitate cruelty towards animals, meat-production does, so what's
your point? Just because animals are treated badly on the modern
industrial farms doesn't make it less feasible to be a vegetarian. You
are simply dodging the issue and creating strawmen arguments.
regards
Jahnu
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Jahnu
>Millions of books are sold as 'fact' every year. People are incredibly
>gullible.... because it appears in a book, does not mean it is correct,
>as gullible people just assume. It is usually money that makes most
>authors write. [I have no idea if this comment applies to robbin].
Millions of people are also so gullible that they believe the
propaganda they are fed by the meat-industry, which, BTW, happens to
be the second largest business in the world (after arms). You can
understand that it is a very powerful factor in the creation of values
in the Western consumer society.
>>And I also wonder why it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
>>if its overall message and conclusions are substantially erroneous.
>
>What makes you think the Pulitzer Prize people are experts on meat
>eating and vegetarians??
This is pathetic. I have scientific research from as far back as the
50s and 60s showing that it is foolish and un-necessary to eat meat.
Do you want me to post it?
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Jahnu
>Agreed, but this will not stop meat eaters either, including myself.
That's because the brain of meat-eaters have become so dull that they
cannot see anything wrong in what they are doing. They are so
brain-washed that they can't even look through the garbage propaganda
they are fed by their degenerated culture.
>BUT, and this is a big but, there will be many more millions of people
>suffering if meat eating were stopped.
How is that? All the suffering the humans inflict on animals will come
back to the human society in the form of bad karmic reactions. If we
stop slaughtering animals immediately the collective bad karma of the
human society, which manifests as suffering, will be relieved.
>Those in the meat industry would suddenly be un-employed. Then the
>starving would increase 10 fold, if not more.
Well, maybe they should find another way to maintain themselves than
slaughtering innocent, defenseless creatures by the billions every
day. What kind of sick job is that? That must be like working in hell.
Besides, the worker in the meat-industry will have to suffer a lot of
bad karma. If he finds another job he will create less suffering for
himself.
>Naw, chaps, let us eat meat, if we suffer it is our doing, and we suffer
>not you.
It's just that we don't like to see others suffer neither you nor the
animals, so therefore we speak up.
>Besides, we do not tell you what to eat, but then neither do the
>animals.
No you don't tell me what to eat... the Coca-cola and MacDonalds
culture is doing it for you. It has a huge propaganda machinery that
fills people's heads with garbage non-stop via every imaginable media
first and foremost on the TV of course.
>If you do not like meat eaters because of moral reasons, well that is
>your problem, not ours.
It's is our problem, because the mindless activities of the
meat-eaters affect everyone on the planet. The poor countries must
starve because of the Western meat-eaters.
>You will die before us, because of your feelings against us. These
>feelings will create cancers and other diseases within yourselves.
>grin......
It is a scientific fact that vegetarians live a longer and more happy
life than meat-eaters. Meat-eaters catch all kinds of diseases like
salmonella and this bacteria and that bacteria, mad-cow-disease, heart
and blood diseases etc. Because of the rotten meat they eat they
contract cancer in the stomach and intestines. And they have to use
all kinds of sprays and mints to disguise the rotten stink that
emanate from their intestines. Pretty pathetic.
Apart from that meat-eaters create a lot of bad karma due to their
violent actions towards sentient creatures and for that they will have
to suffer a lot. Therefore it is really a disservice to oneself to eat
meat.
>he he he Kenneth
>I await with bated breath all the do-gooders rushing in to tell me that
>I am.............. [fill in here all your pet hates and phobia's about
>meat eaters]
>and get another cancer he he he
hehe.. you are either a bone-head or playing games or both. What-ever,
I tell you, as your friend, that it is bad for you to eat meat. It is
not that I hate you of feel bad inside. I couldn't really care less
how you fare in life, but I am duty-bound to inform everyone of the
vedic version and that includes a vegetarian diet.
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iam...@on.the.net
>On Wed, 05 Jan 2000 20:06:17 -0800, iam...@on.the.net,wrote:
>
>
>>This thread is about the spiritual eating or not eating meat, and how
>>that affects enlightenment.
>
>Why shouldn't we discuss that, too?
If you wish.....
>In the Vedas it is said that out
>of all people only a meat-eater cannot understand God.
Bullshit. I AM proof that that is not the case. Besides, the body is not
the part that understands God. The body does not evolve, nor ascend to
heaven.
Do you, a vegetarian I presume, understand God? Have you had or
experienced any form of Self Realization?
No? Try eating meat, it will help you to experience God. :)
>How can you
>profess love for all of God's creatures
I do not profess love for *all of God's creatures*. Where did I say
this?
>and then involve yourself in
>the cruelty of the meat-production?
I am not involved in the cruelty of meat production. I only eat the end
product.
>It's absurd.
That is your opinion. Based on what?
>Meat-eating is
>contrary to spiritual enlightenment.
This statement shows your distinct lack of knowledge of enlightenment.
Enlightenment is not of the body. The body does not experience
enlightenment.
>>If you had your way, then suddenly, when all meat production world wide
>>is stopped, there will be countless millions of people un-emeployed.
>
>No they would have to grow grains and produce food instead.
And those who work in other areas of meat production? and so on?
>>How may more starving and dying people would there be then??
>
>It is a statistical fact that if more people were vegetarians there
>would be a lot more food in the world and less would starve.
There is already a huge surplus of grain in the world. Over 60 million
tons of it. Where is it? And why is it not been fed to the starving?
Because YOU have not done anything about it.
Yet you want me to do something. What is wrong here??
>Instead
>of using all the food-grains for feeding animals and then eating them
>people would be eating the food-grains directly which is much more
>economical, since it takes 10 kg of plant protein to produce 1 kg of
>meat protein.
If you say so. Why do you not do something concrete instead of telling
me? I have no interest in your pet theories, nor can I do anything about
them. It is up to you to act, if you are so strong about it.
>regards
>jahnu
Peace to you
Kenneth
iam...@on.the.net
>On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:13:14 -0700, um...@montana.edu (John
>Mercer),wrote:
>
>>That's a fine example of projection. Can you explain why those who claim
>>to be modifying their own diets to minimize animal deaths and suffering
>>know nothing at all (and are complacent) about the animal deaths and
>>suffering caused by their own food choices?
>
>Two wrongs don't make one right. The fact remains that it is
>unecological, unethical, cruel, and very bad karma to eat meat.
There is no karma. End of Story.
Please prove to me that meat eating is very bad karma. You cannot.
Kenneth
iam...@on.the.net
>On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:21:10 -0800, iam...@on.the.net,wrote:
>
>>Millions of books are sold as 'fact' every year. People are incredibly
>>gullible.... because it appears in a book, does not mean it is correct,
>>as gullible people just assume. It is usually money that makes most
>>authors write. [I have no idea if this comment applies to robbin].
>
>Millions of people are also so gullible that they believe the
>propaganda they are fed by the meat-industry, which, BTW, happens to
>be the second largest business in the world (after arms). You can
>understand that it is a very powerful factor in the creation of values
>in the Western consumer society.
I do not eat meat because of the propaganda about it.
You do not eat meat because of the vegetarian propaganda.
You are the gullible one here.
I eat meat because I like it, it provides something my body needs. I do
not know what, but a vegetarian diet makes me very tired, regardless of
any supplements I may take. I have tried many different diets, and they
are all the same.
And no, it did not make me more spiritual.
Please no advice to me, I will not accept it.
>>>And I also wonder why it was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
>>>if its overall message and conclusions are substantially erroneous.
>>
>>What makes you think the Pulitzer Prize people are experts on meat
>>eating and vegetarians??
>
>This is pathetic.
Now, it is a serious question that you cannot answer. Please check the
requirement for the Pulitzer Prize. Then answer my question.
>I have scientific research from as far back as the
>50s and 60s showing that it is foolish and un-necessary to eat meat.
>Do you want me to post it?
I have no interest in your pet theories. I AM what I AM, and that is
that.
Besides, the statement about un-necessary does not apply to me. See
above.
Kenneth
iam...@on.the.net
>On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 11:21:11 -0800, iam...@on.the.net,wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:31:25 -0500, "netwatcher" <nw...@aol.moc> wrote:
>>
>>>And, of course, the report (and Robbin's mistakes) do not alleviate the suffering
>>>of the animals and humans who participate in the meat producing industry.
>>
>>Agreed, but this will not stop meat eaters either, including myself.
>
>That's because the brain of meat-eaters have become so dull that they
>cannot see anything wrong in what they are doing. They are so
>brain-washed that they can't even look through the garbage propaganda
>they are fed by their degenerated culture.
You are talking through a haze of self delusion here. You have no proof
of this statement.
Yet you are the one who is brain-washed by all the vegetarian material
you claim to have.
Please look at yourself before you make absurd claims as you are doing.
Please name some people who are brilliant, and who are vegetarians. And
I will name brilliant people who are meat eaters. The ratio will
astonish you, because there are more brilliant people who eat meat, than
those who do not.
So your claim is just hot air.
>>BUT, and this is a big but, there will be many more millions of people
>>suffering if meat eating were stopped.
>
>How is that? All the suffering the humans inflict on animals will come
>back to the human society in the form of bad karmic reactions. If we
>stop slaughtering animals immediately the collective bad karma of the
>human society, which manifests as suffering, will be relieved.
>
>>Those in the meat industry would suddenly be un-employed. Then the
>>starving would increase 10 fold, if not more.
>
>Well, maybe they should find another way to maintain themselves
Just because you want it? What about my wants? You vegetarians are all
the same. You want meat eaters to stop eating meat, yet we do not bother
you, or ask you to eat meat.
>than
>slaughtering innocent, defenseless creatures by the billions every
>day.
You are the worst one here. You are the one who complains, but does
absolutely nothing to defend these 'defenseless' creatures, you are the
hypocrite. Not me.
>What kind of sick job is that?
No one has asked you to do it, so why worry? Have you asked the workers
if it is a sick job? Why do you not get them work in the production of
grain, if you do not like what they do?
Stop talking and arguing with me and other meat eaters. DO SOMETHING.
>That must be like working in hell.
There is no hell, except what you make.
>Besides, the worker in the meat-industry will have to suffer a lot of
>bad karma. If he finds another job he will create less suffering for
>himself.
What rubbish. There is no such thing as karma. You are just guessing
here, talking to try and make me and others guilty. Bad luck, mate.
>>Naw, chaps, let us eat meat, if we suffer it is our doing, and we suffer
>>not you.
>
>It's just that we don't like to see others suffer neither you nor the
>animals, so therefore we speak up.
Stop speaking up, do something else to stop it. Talk does nothing.
Action does.
>>Besides, we do not tell you what to eat, but then neither do the
>>animals.
>
>No you don't tell me what to eat... the Coca-cola and MacDonalds
>culture is doing it for you. It has a huge propaganda machinery that
>fills people's heads with garbage non-stop via every imaginable media
>first and foremost on the TV of course.
And the vast amount of vegetarian scientific data you have is not
propaganda, that you have fallen for, hook, line and sinker.??
You are the gullible one.
BTW, I have been eating meat from a child. Many years before Macdonalds
or Coca-cola.
>>If you do not like meat eaters because of moral reasons, well that is
>>your problem, not ours.
>
>It's is our problem,
But you are a talker. talk, talk, talk, But do something active? What
me, I hear you cry??
>because the mindless activities of the
>meat-eaters affect everyone on the planet. The poor countries must
>starve because of the Western meat-eaters.
You are being extremely stupid, and very short-sighted. To blame meat
eaters for the lack of food in starving countries shows your lack of
understanding of the world situation. And your totally gullibilty.
There are millions of tons of grain through out the world, that lie and
rot where they lay.
No one is interested in giving it to the poor starving people of the
world.
So to blame meat production is very stupid, when there is a huge grain
surplus already.
If you are so concerned about the starving, why are you not out there
feeding them?
talk talk talk.
>
>>You will die before us, because of your feelings against us. These
>>feelings will create cancers and other diseases within yourselves.
>>grin......
>
>It is a scientific fact that vegetarians live a longer and more happy
>life than meat-eaters. Meat-eaters catch all kinds of diseases like
>salmonella and this bacteria and that bacteria, mad-cow-disease, heart
>and blood diseases etc.
Hoot. ROTFLMHO
>Because of the rotten meat they eat they
>contract cancer in the stomach and intestines. And they have to use
>all kinds of sprays and mints to disguise the rotten stink that
>emanate from their intestines. Pretty pathetic.
That is rubbish, and you know it. You are getting angry. Why? You are
the one who gets cancer from your anger. He he he
>Apart from that meat-eaters create a lot of bad karma due to their
>violent actions towards sentient creatures and for that they will have
>to suffer a lot. Therefore it is really a disservice to oneself to eat
>meat.
Prove this para above. It is just repeated by you from all those stupid
materials you want to post.
>>he he he Kenneth
>
>>I await with bated breath all the do-gooders rushing in to tell me that
>>I am.............. [fill in here all your pet hates and phobia's about
>>meat eaters]
>
>>and get another cancer he he he
>
>hehe.. you are either a bone-head or playing games or both. What-ever,
>I tell you, as your friend, that it is bad for you to eat meat.
Rubbish.
>It is
>not that I hate you of feel bad inside. I couldn't really care less
>how you fare in life,
Then stop talking about your pet theories if you do not care about how
people fare in life. LEAVE THEM BE.
>but I am duty-bound
You are not. You have taken it upon yourself to do so. No one has asked
you to, nor do the average people care about you and your campaigns.
>to inform everyone of the
>vedic version and that includes a vegetarian diet.
Which you have done, now go away and do something. Like really do
something, not just inform.
You cannot can you?
Kenneth
Bart Lidofsky
: >: three-fold) and bad karma (You are Sooo negitive, work for Satan don't
: >: you ??)
: >
: > What is the difference between good karma and bad karma?
:
: You enjoy the good karma and suffer the bad one. In other words, if
: you suffer in the present you can understand you did something bad in
: the past, and if you enjoy now it means that you did something good in
: the past. Similarly if you do something bad in the present you will
: suffer the reactions in the future and if you do something good you
: will enjoy the reactions.
How does the karma know what you will enjoy, and what will make
you suffer?
: In this way karma exists along with free will. Karma simply means
: actions and reactions.
But that implies that there is no such thing as good karma and bad
karma, at least by your definition. Because between the creation of an
action and the reception of a reaction, there is no control over what
forms it will take.
: Once we act we are bound to receive the
: reactions, but we are at any moment free to change our activities so
: that they will bring about good reactions in the future. The art is to
: know how. This is described by the vedic sages in the Vedas. Over and
: above that one can get free from the bandage of his own actions only
: by changing ones activities from being selfishly oriented to being
: oriented towards God or Krishna.
But that is not "good karma" and "bad karma". That is "personal
karma" and "non-personal karma". If your chains are made of gold or iron,
you are still chained.
Bart Lidofsky
E. Louise Van Hine
> are predestined according to our karmas. For example, we are assigned
> certain parents, a certain country in which to be born. That assignment
is
> not because we "believe" in karma. It is because we are operating in a
> region, which is governed by karma.
I would rather abstain from determinism than meat; the effects are far more
devastating.
E. Louise Van Hine
> What is the difference between good karma and bad karma?
>
Good karma is the outcome you desire and create: bad karma is the outcome
you fear and resist. Remove your fear and there is no 'bad' in 'karma.'
Karma is simply a law.
So what is the difference between 'good gravity' and 'bad gravity'? Good
gravity keeps your car on the road when it's slippery out. Bad gravity is
the gravity that smacks you onto the foot of the cliff when you jump off.
Bruce Morgen
Powerful, plain-language
clarity, thanks for posting
this!
__________________________________________________
http://come.to/realization
http://www.atman.net/realization
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
m(_ _)m
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>In article <QeBqOPC3eA03yT...@4ax.com>,
> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:50:28 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <7XlpOC59YvJiPd...@4ax.com>,
>> > iam...@on.the.net wrote:
<snip>
>> Yes, what we eat is important. Lots of people cannot survive on a
>> vegetarian diet, they have to have meat.
>
>I don't agree with that. If they can live on meat, why can't they live on
>vegetables, fruits, and nuts? Meat is a much more unclean diet, as Peter said
>in the Bible.
May we see your medical degree ?
I was a vegetarian, I found meat offensive, I was dying... until I was
instructed to eat meat. Vegetables and fruits broke-down too quickly
in my digestive tract, I passed into the toilet most every benifit
they were supposed to give me... I was starving. Nuts were the
opposit, which is why peanutbutter was invented, although high in
nutriants, our bodies are unable to break the nut down, so they fill
the stomach and give us next to no value, they just pass through
whole.
So for me starvation would be more moral ? Sorry, I believe suicide to
be wrong.
Peter was arguing with God, God ORDERED Peter EAT!!!!!
>> These people can still attain
>> enlightenment as quick as, or even quicker than veggies.
>
>Generally speaking, I don't agree. Meat eating tends to keep the attention
>scattered down and out from the eye center. Enlightenment is found at the
>eye center.
Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian, so he is better than the rest of us ?
>> >> nor on your behavior,
>> >
>> >I almost can't believe you wrote this. God has to be happy with our behavior
>> >otherwise we will never be brought before the True Saviour, the Living
>> >Master. After meeting the Master, we also have to maintain good behaviour.
>>
>> Many people who have had 'bad' lives have attained enlightenment in
>> their bad lives.
>
>I think we have misjudged their lives, then, in those instances. Someone who
>appears as a sinner, might have repented to the Father, and he might have a
>lot of good karmas to his credit, which we don't know about. So, it is very
>difficult to say that they were "bad."
So none of us qualify to judge others, I quite agree.
> Please do not ask me who, ?? Do you think God sees
>> 'bad' or 'good' in His creations, when He created us, in His image?
>> Perfect?
>
>Yes, some souls have been so "bad," that now they are living as vegetables,
>plants, nuts, etc....Some even live as microbes in our eyebrows. God
>definitely sees everything.
ROFWL !!!
>> >Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
>> >and be reborn in lower species.
>>
>> Come on Michael, this is rubbish.
>
>It is the truth, and many Saints have told us that truth, but many religions
>have opted to throw that part out of the religion, also. So, if we are
>smart, we will listen to the testimony of the Living Master. Christ said,
>"He who has ears, let him hear. There will be wailing and gnashing of
>teeth." "Wailing," could be in Hell due to the hellfire, "Gnashing of
>teeth," could be a rebirth in an animal form, such as a cougar, for example.
Quoting the Bible without understanding it, again, I see ! The Bible
is symbolic in many places, on the bases of the original linguistics.
Show me a Jew that believes in a literal hell, and I will show you a
person lying about being a Jew.
"Hell" = death (nothingness), or any and all things unpleasant. Fire
is God's tool to refine or to purify us. 1 Cor.3:15 describes the
truth about "hell fire" it is the purifying fire of God that EVERYONE
must pass through to get to heaven. As a matter of fact it is the
highest level just below Heaven.
Teeth represents power, God sets us into battle aray, "Think not that
I came to bring peace, I bring not peace, but the sword"
<snip>
>It is true that some animals have more to eat then some humans, but they are
>still afflicted with a lack of intellect. Would you rather be a domestic cat
>with plenty of food, or a human with not enough food? I would choose
>"human."
Bull, animals have as much intellect as you do, just with animals
people call intellect "instict".
>> Domestic animals have incredible amounts of love to give. humanity does
>> not.
>
>Humanity has more love than animals, generally speaking. That could be one
>reason they are born as humans. Animals are capable of loving, also, and
>those animals will be born as humans, most likely.
Wrong again, their love is unconditional, like God, a much higher form
of love. Humans suffer from puttinng conditions on love.
<snip>
>> God has promised in the bible to feed the animals and the lilies of the
>> field, 'who toil not'. As you have already been given, but have not
>> accepted.
I would see being born as an animal as a step closer to heaven !!!
<snip>
>> >It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
>> >likely end up in Hell.
>>
>> Michael, is God merciful, or not? Do not give God attributes He cannot
>> have.
>
>Yes, he is merciful, if we will have faith in HIM, when he incarnates himself
>here, as a Saint.
He is incarnated in each of us, I am a Saint.
>> peace brother Michael
>>
>> Kenneth
>
>peace brother Kenneth
>
>Michael
PEACE !!!
>> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>>
>> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
>>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>In article <386d28eb....@news.urjet.net>,
> gw...@urjet.net (Glenn (Christian Mystic)) wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:50:28 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <7XlpOC59YvJiPd...@4ax.com>,
>> > iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:04:24 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
><snip>
>> >>
>> >> Michael,
>> >>
>> >> Enlightenment is not dependant on karma,
>> >
>> >I almost can't believe you wrote that. If we had no karma, we would all be
>> >with the Supreme Being. Karma is what is keeping us in darkness. It has
>> >kept us in the dark for nearly countless ages.
>>
>> Karma = past experience / past life Karma comes in GOOD Karma (in the
>> Bible good deeds are rewarded seven-fold, while sins are rewarded
>> three-fold)
>
>If the good karmas are with the True Masters, the rewards could even be
>10-fold. Other than that, it is generally tit for tat. We reap what we sow.
Yes, some Scriptures say ten.... This is based entirely on cause and
effect though, and masters have NOTHING to do with it, except God
Him/Her/Itself.
>> and bad karma (You are Sooo negitive, work for Satan don't
>> you ??)
>>
>> >> nor on what you eat,
>> >
>> >If we eat meat, we will have thicker layers of karma standing between the
>> >Father and us, so what we eat is extremely important.
>>
>> The animal is just as dead whether I eat it or not, why waste it ?
>
>Allow me to explain, if you are talking about finding a dean animal in the
>woods, that might have some truth, but if you are buying it in a store, then
>you become part of the karmic law, and also of supply and demand. If we
>create a demand for meat, then the slaughterhouses will be very happy, and
>they will kill animals for us.
Thhe "demand" existed before my birth. A dead animal in the woods may
have been sick, thus by far more unclean than that found in a store.
Have you ever been involved in farming ???
>> Waste is sinful.
>
>Then put it in the woods. Why eat it? Why put flesh in your system. Paul
>said that he would not eat anything unclean.
Jesus said "All things are clean" And so did Paul, I think you lie...
Or once more have no idea of what you are talking about.
>> >> nor on your behavior,
>> >
>> >I almost can't believe you wrote this. God has to be happy with our behavior
>> >otherwise we will never be brought before the True Saviour, the Living
>> >Master. After meeting the Master, we also have to maintain good behaviour.
>> >
>> >Those who commit sins with reckless disregard, will surely be sent to Hell
>> >and be reborn in lower species.
>>
>> BS
>
>It is the truth, whether we are brave enough to accept it or not.
Humans are never re-incarnated as anything BUT human, unless the
person makes an appeal to be born as something else and is deserving
of a REWARD. We are born into our nearest relative who economic
situation comes closest to what our "karma" deserves.
But you may well be born as a carrot :-)
>> >> nor on who you worship or follow.
>> >
>> >I almost can't believe you wrote this. There are souls burning in Hell, at
>> >this very moment, who have followed False Masters right to the Hellfire.
>>
>> Heaven and hell are here
>
>No, Heaven and Hell are both in higher planes. Walt Whitman also pointed
>this out in his poem, "Chanting the Square Deific."
Walt Whitman's poems have nothing to do with it.
Jesus declared they are here, but yes they are in a higher plane of
our understanding.
>>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
>> purifying metals in a furnace
>
>No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this earth. Why
>can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have tried so
>hard to tell you.
No your misinterpretations of their words may be trying to tell me
this falsehood, All three were Jews, and spoke in Jewish linguistics,
"Hell" is a misinterpretation (in English) of three words hades,
sheol, and gahanna (the grave, death, and the trash-heap) no fire.
Fire represents God's purifying furnance.
In the fire, we are purified the final time before entering Heaven.
<snip>
>> >> And a major part of your control by fear of any possible disciples you
>> >> may find.
>> >
>> >It is up to us. If we don't have a fear of offending God, we will very
>> >likely end up in Hell.
>>
>> Fear and faith are opposit of each other, English Bibles
>> misinterpreted the mss RESPECT is too often interpreted as "fear". God
>> desires FAITH and constantly says FEAR NOT !!
>
>It is good to have a fear of offending God, as I have written above. It is
>all through the Bible, and you will still, neither believe the Bible, nor me.
> All I can say, is good luck to you.
It is all through the MISINTERPRETED English TRANSLATIONS of the
Bible, "fear" was not intended, the intended word is RESPECT.
God wants us to have FAITH in Him, you can't have faith without trust,
you fear that which you cannot trust.
Sorry about this, but he wants to argue with a minister about the
Bible !
Bible quotes for fear not....
Gen.15:1; 21:17; 26:24; 35:17; 43:23; 46:3; 50:19-21
Ex. 14:13; 20:20
Num.14:9; 21:34
Deut.1:21; 3:2; 3:22; 20:3; 31:6, 8
Josh.8:1; 10:8,25
Judg.4:18; 6:10,23
Ruth 3:11
1 Sam.4:20; 12:20; 22:23; 23:17
2 Sam.9:7; 13:28
1 Kings 17:13
2 Kings 6:16; 17:34; 25:24
1 Chr.28:10
2 Chr.20:17
Ps.55:19; 64:4
Is.7:4; 35:4; 41:10,13,14; 43:1,5; 44:2,8; 51:7; 54:4
Jer.5:22; 30:10; 40:9; 46:27,28
Lam.3:57
Ezek.3:9
Dan.10:12,19
Joel 2:21
Zeph.3:16
Hag.2:5
Zech.8:13,15
Mal.3:5
Matt.1:20; 10:26,28,31; 28:5
Luke 1:13,30; 2:10; 5:10; 8:50; 12:7,32; 18:4
John 12:15
Acts 27:24
Rev.1:17
>> >> Kenneth
>> >
>> >Michael Martin
>> >>
>> >> iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>> >>
>> >> www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
>> >>
>> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>> >Before you buy.
>>
>> Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>>
>Michael Martin
>A Sant Mat Mystic
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 00:51:35 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
>>> purifying metals in a furnace
>>
>>No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this earth. Why
>>can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have tried so
>>hard to tell you.
>
>Ok Michael,
>
>You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
>
>Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell? Why are
>they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their karma.
>Yes?
This IS our hell, I was a Nazi who aided in the deaths of cripples,
and later Jews in the death camps. And became a crippled Jew,
>Now do not make excuses, why is, oh say Glenn [no offence Glenn, you are
>someone we all know, and have told us of your disabilities], not in
>hell, rather that in a wheel chair??
Same place ! Very well put Kenneth :-) This was just what I was
pointing out.
>Because there is no hell, but Glenn has chosen his karmic debt to be as
>he is.
This is where we split company, I did not chose this.
>There are six billion people in this world, how many sufferers are
>there? People who are starving, diseased and so on? Why are they not in
>hell, as you say they should be?
They are in hell, but Kenneth stating this does not justify our not
doing all we can to bring them up and out of this hell. Ignoring their
condition invites their present fate to become our future fate.
<snip>
>Kenneth
>
>iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>
>www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 08:19:16 GMT, Here Now <ia...@asia.com> wrote:
>
>>In article <5khuODfynkBPV3SUqwm4=FWR...@4ax.com>,
>> iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>
>>> Ok Michael,
>>>
>>> You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
>>>
>>> Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell? Why are
>>> they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their
>>karma.
>>> Yes?
>>
>>Actually, Kenneth, it's not obvious at all.
>
>Agreed. I made a statement here that cannot be proved. Although if one
>believes in karma, this is a logical conclusion. I do however, believe
>these people have purposely chosen this role for themselves.
>
>>I found a few of your
>>earlier points well-made, but you seem to be moving into a more rigid
>>way of thinking here.
>
>Hmmm, thanks for this, I will think about what you say.
>
>>How can one judge another's plight and the reason
>>for it?
>
>We cannot truly judge, due to the fact that we all have choice.......
>But the cause of their choices are very clear. They do not believe in a
>God of Love, Peace, Joy and Happiness. And of course, Abundance.
>
>>Can we look at the starving, diseased, the poor and believe -
>>oh yea - they were *really* debauched in a former life?
>
>Yes, we can. But of course, one's belief is not always correct.
>
>>What if that
>>role were chosen instead as a way to serve humanity?
>
>It is difficult to imagine the starving and almost dead as serving
>humanity?? grin
Matt.25:31-46, Jesus choses to BE the Least among us.
They SERVE humanity as a TEST !
We went around on this before.
> But I know what you mean. So my reply would be, they
>have not chosen to serve humanity, but want humanity to be victims of
>their suffering.
WRONG ! It would be NICE if this were true so we would be "doing God's
will" to let them starve... Then we can happily be greedy and selfish
:-(
>That is, they want sorrow and compassion for
>themselves, with the attendant guilt trips humanity experiences when
>they do not assist the suffering.
>
>Which is why the starving and suffering do not do anything to help
>themselves. They have the choice of asking for the return of their
>Abundance from God, given them at creation, or continue to suffer.
That is really be-sides the point isn't it ?
>Their education should be of a God of Love and Abundance, but you cannot
>eat this message, so it would be rejected immediately. Also who will
>educate them??
They can learn NOTHING on an empty stomach, that is what I hated about
the Christian Fundamentalist "Missionaries". I led more to Jesus than
they because, while they were eating they would ask "Why are you doing
this for me ?" and the Testimony Doors were opened.
>Is there anyone on this planet enlightened enough to do
>so, as Jesus and Buddha did?
Are you willing to do it ? Is the question,,, Many of us are
"enlightened" UNTIL it comes to DOING SOMETHING.
Yes, I was enlightened enough, until my body gave out... There ARE a
damn few of us out there.
<snipped cop-outs for not helping others>
>The excuses people use for suffering of any kind are karma, last
>judgement and hell; as a re-payment of karma.
>
>Not required, as God is a God of Love, and so would not punish.
>
>I hope I have clarified my position.
>
>In the final analysis of course, I have not the right to interfere with
>other's choices, especially their beliefs, but usenet is for
>discussion.....
We have the OBLIGATION to interfer in the suffering of other, by doing
all we can to alleviate as much of it as possible. And as you know
from our conversation, I ACTIVELY attempted to do just that for over a
decade.
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
wrote:
>Glenn (Christian Mystic) (gw...@urjet.net) wrote:
>: Karma = past experience / past life Karma comes in GOOD Karma (in the
>: Bible good deeds are rewarded seven-fold, while sins are rewarded
>: three-fold) and bad karma (You are Sooo negitive, work for Satan don't
>: you ??)
>
> What is the difference between good karma and bad karma?
For a Christian stand-point, good karma would be the good you do for
the sake of others. And bad karma would be the things you do that
cause other harm, pain, or discomfort.
But it realy depends on your religious path.
> Bart Lidofsky
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
<nu...@direct.ca> wrote:
>
>> What is the difference between good karma and bad karma?
>>
>
>Good karma is the outcome you desire and create: bad karma is the outcome
>you fear and resist. Remove your fear and there is no 'bad' in 'karma.'
>Karma is simply a law.
>
>So what is the difference between 'good gravity' and 'bad gravity'? Good
>gravity keeps your car on the road when it's slippery out. Bad gravity is
>the gravity that smacks you onto the foot of the cliff when you jump off.
ROFWL :-)
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:20:22 -0800, iam...@on.the.net,wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
>>>down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
>>>way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
>>>phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
>>
>>Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>VEGETARIAN FLESH-EATER HUMAN
>
>Hands / hoofs Claws as append- Hands as
>as appendages ages appendages finger-nails = claws
>
>Teeth flat Teeth sharp Teeth flat Front teeth sharp
>
>Alkaline saliva; Acid saliva; no Alkaline saliva;
>much ptyalin ptyalin enzyme much ptyalin
>enzyme enzyme
>
>Stomach acid 10 Much strong hydro- Stomach acid 10
>times weaker chloride acid in times weaker than
>than meat-eaters stomach meat-eaters
>
>Long intestines Short intestines; Long intestines;
>to digest nutrients rapidly excrete digest nutrients in
>in plant foods fully putrefying flesh plant foods fully
>
>Sweats to cool Pants to cool Sweats to cool
>body body body
>
>Sips water Laps water Sips water, and laps water, when in the wilds and lacking a glass
>
>Vitamin C obtained Vitamin C manu- Vitamin C obtained
>solely from diet factured internally solely from diet
>
>Exists largely on Consumes flesh Diet depends
>fruit and nut diet; exclusively on environment (Thank you, we class as an <forgot the word, means BOTH a flesh eat
AND a
meat
eater>)
>
>Grasping hands No manual dexte- Grasping hands
>capable of using terity capable of using
>tools and weapons tools (See above monkeys, like us eat meat and vegies)
(horses and other vegetarians
cannot do this, this is a none
argument
>
>Inoffensive Putrid Offensiveness of excrement
>excrement excrement depends on diet
>
>Snack feeder Large meals infre- Combines worst of
> frequently taken both worlds
>
>Predominantly Preference for salty Likes both sweet and
>sweet toothed / fatty food salty / fatty food (because we are BOTH)
>
>Likes to savor Bolts down Likes to savor food,
>food, experiment food experiment with
>with variety, com- variety, com-
>bine flavors bine flavors
>
>Large brains, able Small brains, less Large brains, able
>to rationalize capable of adaptive to rationalize
> behavior
> Cats and other
meateaters, must
outwit their prey.
I would rethink this!
>_____________________________________________
>¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
>www.iskcon.com, www.iskcon.org, www.iskcon.net
>
Jon Brooks
American with a love for his fellow man, and a heart for Isra'el and all
Jewish people...oh my, what terrible or great deeds did i do?
could it be that i never existed until now?..hmm...I THINK SO
:)..sorry just visiting, I don't think i'll be here often
--
In Christ Jesus, His disciple Jonathan
email at xrist...@hotmail.com
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood,
a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you
may declare praises to Him who called you out of
darkness into His wonderful light.
-1 Peter 2:9
Glenn (Christian Mystic) <gw...@urjet.net> wrote in article
<3877cfa3....@news.urjet.net>...
> On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 10:57:20 -0800, iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 00:51:35 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >>>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
> >>> purifying metals in a furnace
> >>
> >>No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this
earth. Why
> >>can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have
tried so
> >>hard to tell you.
> >
> >Ok Michael,
> >
> >You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
> >
> >Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell? Why are
> >they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their karma.
> >Yes?
>
Bruce Morgen
>On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 22:19:02 GMT, ba...@escape.com (Bart Lidofsky)
>wrote:
>
>>Glenn (Christian Mystic) (gw...@urjet.net) wrote:
>>: Karma = past experience / past life Karma comes in GOOD Karma (in the
>>: Bible good deeds are rewarded seven-fold, while sins are rewarded
>>: three-fold) and bad karma (You are Sooo negitive, work for Satan don't
>>: you ??)
>>
>> What is the difference between good karma and bad karma?
>
>For a Christian stand-point, good karma would be the good you do for
>the sake of others. And bad karma would be the things you do that
>cause other harm, pain, or discomfort.
>But it realy depends on your religious path.
>
>> Bart Lidofsky
>
>Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Heeding love's behest with
no attachment to outcome =
*no* karma. This fact is
independent of ones nominal
"path," "lineage," etc.
Bruce Morgen
>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 10:57:20 -0800, iam...@on.the.net wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 00:51:35 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
>>>> purifying metals in a furnace
>>>
>>>No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this earth. Why
>>>can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have tried so
>>>hard to tell you.
>>
>>Ok Michael,
>>
>>You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
>>
>>Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell? Why are
>>they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their karma.
>>Yes?
>
>This IS our hell, I was a Nazi who aided in the deaths of cripples,
>and later Jews in the death camps. And became a crippled Jew,
>
>>Now do not make excuses, why is, oh say Glenn [no offence Glenn, you are
>>someone we all know, and have told us of your disabilities], not in
>>hell, rather that in a wheel chair??
>
>Same place ! Very well put Kenneth :-) This was just what I was
>pointing out.
>
>>Because there is no hell, but Glenn has chosen his karmic debt to be as
>>he is.
>
>This is where we split company, I did not chose this.
Ah, but if we believe your
past-life description, a
previous edition of you
did exactly that, Glenn!
You have chosen to work
off that karma, you can
also choose to be free of
it -- this will not
necessarily make your
current body whole, of
course, but it bodes well
for the drop of the divine
ocean that inhabits it!
>
>>There are six billion people in this world, how many sufferers are
>>there? People who are starving, diseased and so on? Why are they not in
>>hell, as you say they should be?
>
>They are in hell, but Kenneth stating this does not justify our not
>doing all we can to bring them up and out of this hell. Ignoring their
>condition invites their present fate to become our future fate.
>
In a sense both of you are
correct. The alleviation
of physical suffering can
be an effective tool by
which an authentic realizer
(a "Teacher Of God" in
Ken's parlance) may
communicate her/his nature
to the sufferer(s), thus
pointing toward the source
of that nature. That said,
such succor is best given
to those aware and humble
enough to ask for or at
least clearly consent to
it. Remember, my friends,
this kind of charity is for
the benefit of the giver
*at least* as often as the
receiver, and karma yoga is
certainly a legitimate and
viable approach to ones
personal realization.
><snip>
>
>>Kenneth
>>
>>iam...@globalnet.co.uk
>>
>>www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
>
>Glenn (Christian Mystic)
Bruce Morgen
Seemingly Preaching To Two
Of The Choir's Best Singers
sh...@my-deja.com
We have no choice in the matter, or I should say very little choice. Our
life is mostly predetermined with very little "free will."
Michael Martin
sh...@my-deja.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Glenn (Christian Mystic) (gw...@urjet.net) wrote:
> >>: Karma = past experience / past life Karma comes in GOOD Karma (in the
> >>: Bible good deeds are rewarded seven-fold, while sins are rewarded
> >>: three-fold) and bad karma (You are Sooo negitive, work for Satan don't
> >>: you ??)
> >>
> >> What is the difference between good karma and bad karma?
> >
> >For a Christian stand-point, good karma would be the good you do for
> >the sake of others. And bad karma would be the things you do that
> >cause other harm, pain, or discomfort.
> >But it realy depends on your religious path.
Glenn, you have the right idea, but we don't know the difference between good
and bad. If we did, the slaughterhouses would not exist. Their existence is
a testimony to the ignorance of mankind.
> >
> >> Bart Lidofsky
> >
> >Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>
> Heeding love's behest with
> no attachment to outcome =
> *no* karma.
Bruce, whenever we sow a seed, we will, sooner or later, have to reap that
crop. That is regardless whether we have an attachment to it or not, with
one exception, that we have gone beyond the reach of karma in our meditation.
In that case, no karma could pull us back, but only a handful of people in
the entire world are in that category.
Another problem is that we sometimes think we are doing something at love's
behest, when actually it is at lust's behest, or greed's behest, or ego's
behest. Often we think we are doing the right thing, but we really are just
dancing to the tune of Satan. This is how Satan has cleverly deceived the
entire world.
We need a Master to help us to avoid the sinister deceptions of Satan.
> This fact is
> independent of ones nominal > "path," "lineage," etc.
Unless we are following a True Master, we will not know the difference
between right and wrong in many cases, not every case, but we will remain
deceived, and we will continue to dance to his (Satan's) tune.
Michael Martin
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
> m(_ _)m
>
c.g. van der mark
sh...@my-deja.com heeft geschreven in bericht
<85a14f$813$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
seem devasting, yet if i had to choose only one then it would probably be
meat, as i feel that meat helps to keep determinism alive and active.
Love and peace to all living
Chilia
I would find it difficult to
Bruce Morgen
Horse puckey. You have
an ego investment in the
exclusivity of the tiny
"Param Sant Sat Guru"
club you have invented.
Direct embodiment of the
divine will is end of
karma as it applies to
the nominal individual
involved. With the end
of labels like "good"
and "bad" karma comes
the end of the relevance
of causality with regard
to said individual.
Ones actions originate
with the truly sacred
and are karmically
transparent, love that
gives all and asks
nothing but to serve.
>
>Another problem is that we sometimes think we are doing something at love's
>behest, when actually it is at lust's behest, or greed's behest, or ego's
>behest.
Yes, this is a definite
possibility. If such an
error persists and
becomes ones raison
d'etre, it is called an
obsessive delusion.
>Often we think we are doing the right thing, but we really are just
>dancing to the tune of Satan. This is how Satan has cleverly deceived the
>entire world.
"Satan" in relation to
human consciousness is
nothing more or other
than the self-deceptive
activity of thought --
the so-called "mind." In
it's most extreme from,
this activity is called
an obsessive delusion.
>
>We need a Master to help us to avoid the sinister deceptions of Satan.
To consider oneself such
"a Master" in the face
of massive indications to
the contrary is called an
obsessive delusion.
>
>> This fact is
>> independent of ones nominal > "path," "lineage," etc.
>
>Unless we are following a True Master, we will not know the difference
>between right and wrong in many cases, not every case, but we will remain
>deceived, and we will continue to dance to his (Satan's) tune.
>
One can also be the devoted
chela of a famous "True
Master" and *still* find
oneself in the thrall of
Kal in the form of an
obsessive delusion.
Bruce Morgen
>In article <mXud4.420$mK.4...@brie.direct.ca>,
> "E. Louise Van Hine" <nu...@direct.ca> wrote:
>> > It is not just belief. We are sentenced to live a certain life. Our lives
>> > are predestined according to our karmas. For example, we are assigned
>> > certain parents, a certain country in which to be born. That assignment
>> is
>> > not because we "believe" in karma. It is because we are operating in a
>> > region, which is governed by karma.
>>
>> I would rather abstain from determinism than meat; the effects are far more
>> devastating.
>>
>
>We have no choice in the matter, or I should say very little choice. Our
>life is mostly predetermined with very little "free will."
>
So those who would have
us see them to be the
sole escape route from a
dire predetermined fate
would have us believe.
This is Kal in his
stealthiest form: the
deluded would-be savior,
enrobed in good
intentions and spouting
earnest rhetoric.
Louise is right, it's
less harmful to eat
flesh than to fall prey
to such a sadly self-
fulfilling
misunderstanding.
Unicorn
Jahnu , sh...@my-deja.com,wrote:
|
| <snip>
|
| >Whatever actions we sow now will be reaped in following lives, not in
this
| >life. This life as already been planned out.
|
The yearning of Gnostics is: not to experience any following lives.
Breaking out of the circle of birth & death.
COPY:
We are making a pilgrimage, well-considered and methodical. We no longer
want to be found anywhere, in whatever sphere of this nature-order. We want
to enter into the Eternal Nothingness, as it has been called by dialectics
and its aeons and entities. We have examined the All of dialectical nature.
This we were able to do, because we are in this nature. With our I-beings we
were able to taste and examine everything this world has to offer. And
everything was... trouble and sorrow. We found this nature to be a Nature of
Death and we did not long to jubilate with the blessed before the throne,and
neither did we want to be zealous in the cause of making this accursed order
acceptable in whatever way. After years of trial and error we came to the
conclusion that it was not right to co-operate any longer with those who
deluded people in this nature of death. One may well draw these conclusions
but then one cannot but take a decision. At a certain moment one has to be
able to transcend ones momentary existence. Consequently we were obliged to
fathom the Tao of Antiquity objectively and not through authorities. We soon
found out that on all sides everything was being done to prevent these
discoveries. Many sources has been destroyed, other sources were
unobtainable and the rest had been heavily damaged. We began with those
broken fragments of the Holy Language that remained.Through our search it
became clear that apart from this nature order an Original Realm exists;a
Realm existing far , far beyond the highest Nirvanic Domain, a realm that is
very emphatically disassociated from both spheres of this nature of death.
When we discovered this, we began a search to find out whether there had
been people, or groups of people, who had striven for this Other Realm; to
find out what their lives had been like and what distinguished them from the
others.We investigated whether these people, however far away from each
other and separated by time, had nevertheless gone the same path. And we
discovered that all these people and groups had striven in the same
organised way.
suggested nice link for further investigation:
with best thoughts,
John Lastborn
To BE or not to BE that's the Quest ion
Unicorn
| >If you had your way, then suddenly, when all meat production world wide
| >
| >How may more starving and dying people would there be then??
Producing 1 kilo meat takes about 10 kg vegetables (or grain).
Common sense will give the answer to y'r question what would happen.
D i c k
jody
[snip]
> There is certainly no harm in submitting to a True Master, in fact, that is
> the only way to Spiritual Salvation.
>
> Michael Martin
It is dangerous to submit to you as you are seriously deluded about your
"nature" as a "True Master."
--jodyr
sh...@my-deja.com
sh...@my-deja.com
"Unicorn" <dicklast.nospam.@worldonline.nl> wrote:
>
> Jahnu , sh...@my-deja.com,wrote:
> |
> | <snip>
> |
> | >Whatever actions we sow now will be reaped in following lives, not in
> this
> | >life. This life as already been planned out.
> |
>
> The yearning of Gnostics is: not to experience any following lives.
> Breaking out of the circle of birth & death.
Yes, that is the goal of those who practice Sant Mat, also. My reply,
however, was for everybody, and that is why I replied as I did.
If we can follow a True Master's instructions, and practice the Shabd
meditation, then we can break all bonds that would cause us to be reborn. If
we can reach the center of the first level of consciousness, known as the
Astral Plane, then we avoid rebirth in this world, but we will have to put in
some effort to get there. We must have love, faith, and devotion for the
True Master, and we must work hard on our meditation with regularity,
punctuality, and perseverance. Our effort invokes the Master's grace, and
that ultimately gives us spiritual salvation, and we can reach back to the
Supreme Being.
Thank you, I enjoyed reading that. We need to lose our inviduality and
become "one" with the Supreme Being. That is the way to achieve eternal
peace.
Michael Martin
>
> suggested nice link for further investigation:
>
> http://come.to/emporium
>
> with best thoughts,
>
> John Lastborn
>
> To BE or not to BE that's the Quest ion
>
>
sh...@my-deja.com
"c.g. van der mark" <mc....@hccnet.nl> wrote:
>
> sh...@my-deja.com heeft geschreven in bericht
> <85a14f$813$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > "E. Louise Van Hine" <nu...@direct.ca> wrote:
> >> > It is not just belief. We are sentenced to live a certain life. Our
> lives
> >> > are predestined according to our karmas. For example, we are assigned
> >> > certain parents, a certain country in which to be born. That
> assignment
> >> is
> >> > not because we "believe" in karma. It is because we are operating in a
> >> > region, which is governed by karma.
> >>
> >> I would rather abstain from determinism than meat; the effects are far
> more
> >> devastating.
> >>
> >We have no choice in the matter, or I should say very little choice. Our
> >life is mostly predetermined with very little "free will."
> >
> >>
> >I would find it difficult to decide which to abstain frm, as they both
> seem devasting, yet if i had to choose only one then it would probably be
> meat, as i feel that meat helps to keep determinism alive and active.
> Love and peace to all living
> Chilia
There is only one way to abstain from determinism, and that is to find a True
Master, and become one with him. He is beyond all traces of karma, in
reality, he takes enough karma to live in this world, but he is really
karmaless. A True Master can pay off his karma any time he wishes. He has
unlimited spiritual wealth and can pay off any karmic debts. So, if we
become "one" with a True Master, then we will inherit his wealth, and thus be
free from determinism.
You're right, "killing," especially killing to eat meat, is one of the most
severe karmic debts. It keeps souls prisoners of karma.
Michael Martin
> >
> >Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >Before you buy.
>
> I would find it difficult to
>
>
sh...@my-deja.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
> sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <mXud4.420$mK.4...@brie.direct.ca>,
> > "E. Louise Van Hine" <nu...@direct.ca> wrote:
> >> > It is not just belief. We are sentenced to live a certain life. Our lives
> >> > are predestined according to our karmas. For example, we are assigned
> >> > certain parents, a certain country in which to be born. That assignment
> >> is
> >> > not because we "believe" in karma. It is because we are operating in a
> >> > region, which is governed by karma.
> >>
> >> I would rather abstain from determinism than meat; the effects are far more
> >> devastating.
> >>
> >
> >We have no choice in the matter, or I should say very little choice. Our
> >life is mostly predetermined with very little "free will."
> >
> us see them to be the
> sole escape route from a
> dire predetermined fate
> would have us believe.
Yes, that is right. Saints are sent to this world by the Supreme Being, and
they tell us that we are dancing to the tune of the devil. They tell us that
karma is what is keeping us separated from the Supreme Being, and they tell
us that the Shabd, Nam, or Holy Spirit, is the REAL form of the Master. We
follow that form of the Master back to the Almighty, if we can just have love
and faith in the physical form of the Master.
> This is Kal in his
> stealthiest form: the
> deluded would-be savior,
> enrobed in good
> intentions and spouting
> earnest rhetoric.
Kal is like a drop. Saints are like an ocean. Why do you want to reduce the
Ocean to a Drop, Bruce? The Saviour tells us what the situation is, and he
tells us the remedy.
We can reject the Saints, if we like, but then we run the risk of not meeting
another Saint for, perhaps, millions of years. We should try to have faith
in the Living Master of the time, now.
>
> Louise is right, it's
> less harmful to eat
> flesh than to fall prey
> to such a sadly self-
> fulfilling
> misunderstanding.
There is certainly no harm in submitting to a True Master, in fact, that is
the only way to Spiritual Salvation.
Michael Martin
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
> m(_ _)m
>
sh...@my-deja.com
"Jon Brooks " <xrist...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> AHHHH! my karma must be the worst, I came back as a Christian Irish
> American with a love for his fellow man, and a heart for Isra'el and all
> Jewish people...oh my, what terrible or great deeds did i do?
>
> could it be that i never existed until now?..hmm...I THINK SO
Mystic Adepts tell us that we have had thousands, even millions of past
lives. It is easily seen, if we go in to the mystic levels of consciousness.
I have seen them. It is true, what they tell us. We have all descended
from a Perfect Master named Adam.
>
> :)..sorry just visiting, I don't think i'll be here often
>
> --
> In Christ Jesus, His disciple Jonathan
> email at xrist...@hotmail.com
>
> But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood,
> a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you
> may declare praises to Him who called you out of
> darkness into His wonderful light.
> -1 Peter 2:9
The praise is for the Living Master. We should seek a True Living Master to
extricate us from Satan's prisonhouse and take us back to the Supreme Being.
>
Please read on as I have commented on other's postings, as well.
> Glenn (Christian Mystic) <gw...@urjet.net> wrote in article
> <3877cfa3....@news.urjet.net>...
> > On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 10:57:20 -0800, iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> >
> > >On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 00:51:35 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >
> > >>>"fire" is symbolic for purification, like
> > >>> purifying metals in a furnace
> > >>
> > >>No, fire is fire, in Hell. It is more real than the fire of this
> earth. Why
> > >>can't you face the truth, which Christ, Peter, Paul and others have
> tried so
> > >>hard to tell you.
> > >
> > >Ok Michael,
> > >
> > >You say we go to hell for bad deeds.
> > >
> > >Why are not people who have terrible disabilities not in hell?
We are here due to a mixture of good and bad karmas. Those with disabilities
had enough "good" karmas to keep them out of hell.
> > >Why are
> > >they here on earth? They are obviously disabled because of their karma.
> > >Yes?
Yes, but their karma didn't deserve hell.
> >
> > This IS our hell, I was a Nazi who aided in the deaths of cripples,
> > and later Jews in the death camps. And became a crippled Jew,
Sometimes, this world seems like a hell due to our karmas, that's true.
> >
> > >Now do not make excuses, why is, oh say Glenn [no offence Glenn, you are
> > >someone we all know, and have told us of your disabilities], not in
> > >hell, rather that in a wheel chair??
He also had some beneficial karmas that needed to be reaped here, and not in
hell.
> >
> > Same place ! Very well put Kenneth :-) This was just what I was
> > pointing out.
> >
> > >Because there is no hell, but Glenn has chosen his karmic debt to be as
> > >he is.
No, we don't choose. Satan does the choosing (sentencing).
> >
> > This is where we split company, I did not chose this.
See, he agrees with me.
> >
> > >There are six billion people in this world, how many sufferers are
> > >there? People who are starving, diseased and so on? Why are they not in
> > >hell, as you say they should be?
I already discussed this.
Michael Martin
> >
> > They are in hell, but Kenneth stating this does not justify our not
> > doing all we can to bring them up and out of this hell. Ignoring their
> > condition invites their present fate to become our future fate.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >Kenneth
> > >
> > >iam...@globalnet.co.uk
> > >
> > >www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~iamone
> >
> > Glenn (Christian Mystic)
> >
> >
>
sh...@my-deja.com
edi...@juno.com wrote:
No, Bruce, I'm just giving the True Teachings.
> Direct embodiment of the
> divine will is end of
> karma as it applies to
> the nominal individual
> involved.
Yes, and that is what I wrote. When we go beyond the reach of karma, then
naturally we are able to know the divine will. Saints become "one" with that
divine will.
> With the end
> of labels like "good"
> and "bad" karma comes
> the end of the relevance
> of causality with regard
> to said individual.
Yes, it certainly does.
> Ones actions originate
> with the truly sacred
> and are karmically
> transparent, love that
> gives all and asks
> nothing but to serve.
If you are referring to the Saints, and I think you are, then I can agree
with this.
You have not really addessed what we were discussing, have you? You are
writing about Saints, but how many of us are Saints?
> >
> >Another problem is that we sometimes think we are doing something at love's
> >behest, when actually it is at lust's behest, or greed's behest, or ego's
> >behest.
>
> Yes, this is a definite
> possibility. If such an
> error persists and
> becomes ones raison
> d'etre, it is called an
> obsessive delusion.
Yes, and most of the world fits into that category. That is why I say, that
we are dancing to the tune of Satan, with a very few exceptions.
>
> >Often we think we are doing the right thing, but we really are just
> >dancing to the tune of Satan. This is how Satan has cleverly deceived the
> >entire world.
>
> "Satan" in relation to
> human consciousness is
> nothing more or other
> than the self-deceptive
> activity of thought --
> the so-called "mind."
No, Satan is a soul. He is a highly evolved soul, compared to most people.
He is "one" with Universal Mind. We can't comprehend what he is, actually,
unless we reach his level of consciousness.
Yes, he is mind, but he is a soul, also. He is a ruler. He governs the
three worlds, Astral, Physical, and Causal.
> In
> it's most extreme from,
> this activity is called
> an obsessive delusion.
Only those with access to the third major "heaven," can go beyond Satan.
That means, that practically the whole world is deluded. Only a handful of
people can go beyond Satan.
> >
> >We need a Master to help us to avoid the sinister deceptions of Satan.
>
> To consider oneself such
> "a Master" in the face
> of massive indications to
> the contrary is called an
> obsessive delusion.
One who is "one" with the Supreme Being is a Master, regardless what anybody
else thinks.
> >
> >> This fact is
> >> independent of ones nominal > "path," "lineage," etc.
> >
> >Unless we are following a True Master, we will not know the difference
> >between right and wrong in many cases, not every case, but we will remain
> >deceived, and we will continue to dance to his (Satan's) tune.
> >
> One can also be the devoted
> chela of a famous "True
> Master" and *still* find
> oneself in the thrall of
> Kal in the form of an
> obsessive delusion.
Possibly, but just because "False Masters" exist, doesn't mean we should
reject the "True Master." We have to make the best use of this human form,
while we have it.
Michael Martin
>
> __________________________________________________
> http://come.to/realization
> http://www.atman.net/realization
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucemrg.htm
> http://www.users.uniserve.com/~samuel/brucsong.htm
>
> m(_ _)m
>
sh...@my-deja.com
chek...@bahnhof.se wrote:
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2000 10:20:22 -0800, iam...@on.the.net,wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 01 Jan 2000 17:00:33 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Yes, John, what you write is true. Meat has a tendency to keep our attention
> >>down and out from the eye center. It interferes with concentration in that
> >>way. That is why many of the world's great artists, thinkers, and
> >>phisophers, let alone Mystics, have chosen to be vegetarians.
> >
> >Please prove this statement with names......... and supporting facts.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> VEGETARIAN FLESH-EATER HUMAN
>
> Hands / hoofs Claws as append- Hands as
> as appendages ages appendages
>
>
> much ptyalin ptyalin enzyme much ptyalin
> enzyme enzyme
>
> Stomach acid 10 Much strong hydro- Stomach acid 10
> times weaker chloride acid in times weaker than
> than meat-eaters stomach meat-eaters
>
> Long intestines Short intestines; Long intestines;
> to digest nutrients rapidly excrete digest nutrients in
> in plant foods fully putrefying flesh plant foods fully
>
> Sweats to cool Pants to cool Sweats to cool
> body body body
>
> Sips water Laps water Sips water
>
> solely from diet factured internally solely from diet
>
> Exists largely on Consumes flesh Diet depends
> fruit and nut diet; exclusively on environment
>
> capable of using terity capable of using
>
> Inoffensive Putrid Offensiveness of excrement
> excrement excrement depends on diet
>
> Snack feeder Large meals infre- Combines worst of
> frequently taken both worlds
>
> Predominantly Preference for salty Likes both sweet and
> sweet toothed / fatty food salty / fatty food
>
> food, experiment food experiment with
> with variety, com- variety, com-
> bine flavors bine flavors
>
> Large brains, able Small brains, less Large brains, able
> to rationalize capable of adaptive to rationalize
> behavior
>
> ¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤¤
> www.iskcon.com, www.iskcon.org, www.iskcon.net
Thanks for posting this, Jahnu. I think it helps us to understand the
situation.
Michael Martin
Bruce Morgen
I'm sure you see it that
way, but your presence
and discourse fairly
*shouts* otherwise.
>
>> Direct embodiment of the
>> divine will is end of
>> karma as it applies to
>> the nominal individual
>> involved.
>
>Yes, and that is what I wrote. When we go beyond the reach of karma, then
>naturally we are able to know the divine will. Saints become "one" with that
>divine will.
Understood. Of course
one can read of this in a
book.
>
>> With the end
>> of labels like "good"
>> and "bad" karma comes
>> the end of the relevance
>> of causality with regard
>> to said individual.
>
>Yes, it certainly does.
I'm glad we agree.
>
>> Ones actions originate
>> with the truly sacred
>> and are karmically
>> transparent, love that
>> gives all and asks
>> nothing but to serve.
>
>If you are referring to the Saints, and I think you are, then I can agree
>with this.
I do not harbor this group
identity of "the Saints,"
but there is nothing of
substance to argue with in
your statement.
>
>You have not really addessed what we were discussing, have you? You are
>writing about Saints, but how many of us are Saints?
>
All of us -- all that must
occur is the blessed grace
of discovery.
This is fanciful dogma
designed to appeal to the
fearful and gullible.
>
>> In
>> it's most extreme from,
>> this activity is called
>> an obsessive delusion.
>
>Only those with access to the third major "heaven," can go beyond Satan.
>That means, that practically the whole world is deluded. Only a handful of
>people can go beyond Satan.
>
I would agree to the
extent that the realized
comprise a tiny minority
of our species. I
regard the rest of your
statement as applicable
only in the context of
Sant Mat theory and
otherwise irrelevant.
>> >
>> >We need a Master to help us to avoid the sinister deceptions of Satan.
>>
>> To consider oneself such
>> "a Master" in the face
>> of massive indications to
>> the contrary is called an
>> obsessive delusion.
>
>One who is "one" with the Supreme Being is a Master, regardless what anybody
>else thinks.
>
I agree, and one who has
been convinced by Kal that
he is "one" is suffering
from an obsessive
delusion.
>> >
>> >> This fact is
>> >> independent of ones nominal > "path," "lineage," etc.
>> >
>> >Unless we are following a True Master, we will not know the difference
>> >between right and wrong in many cases, not every case, but we will remain
>> >deceived, and we will continue to dance to his (Satan's) tune.
>> >
>> One can also be the devoted
>> chela of a famous "True
>> Master" and *still* find
>> oneself in the thrall of
>> Kal in the form of an
>> obsessive delusion.
>
>Possibly, but just because "False Masters" exist, doesn't mean we should
>reject the "True Master."
I agree, with the caveat
that you are no such
"True Master." You aren't
a "False Master," either
-- an honest, generous man
with an obsessive delusion
is in neither category.
>We have to make the best use of this human form,
>while we have it.
Of course, although fear
and desperation are not a
reaction likely to lead
to "the best use."
>
>Michael Martin
>>
Bruce Morgen
Bruce Morgen
>In article <4ooh7sk5kisf30s1j...@4ax.com>,
> edi...@juno.com wrote:
I'm doing no such thing.
Please get over yourself,
as you are certainly no
"Saint."
>The Saviour tells us what the situation is, and he
>tells us the remedy.
What "The Saviour" does
has nothing to do with
your and your activity.
>
>We can reject the Saints,
We should embrace
everyone, even those who
deusionally believe
themselves to be "Saints."
Love takes many forms,
not all of them amounting
to a bow of obeisance or a
pat on the back.
>if we like, but then we run the risk of not meeting
>another Saint for, perhaps, millions of years.
Meeting a "Saint" may or
may not be part of the
the appropriate "path" for
any particular incarnation.
>We should try to have faith
>in the Living Master of the time, now.
>
When one shows up, (s)he
will inspire the requisite
"faith."
>>
>> Louise is right, it's
>> less harmful to eat
>> flesh than to fall prey
>> to such a sadly self-
>> fulfilling
>> misunderstanding.
>
>There is certainly no harm in submitting to a True Master,
Correct!
>in fact, that is
>the only way to Spiritual Salvation.
Incorrect!
Bruce Morgen
>
>
>>>I don't agree with that. If they can live on meat, why can't they live on
>>>vegetables, fruits, and nuts? Meat is a much more unclean diet, as Peter said
>>>in the Bible.
>
>The meat in the bible of which peter spoke was goat meat.
>
>Look up 'cloven hoof' animals in the bible.
>
>Like I said above, I tried for 3 years to be a vegetarian, and become
>weaker and weaker. Regardless of the supplements that I was taking.
>
>A phsysic homeopath I visisted immediately said to me, "you are a
>vegatarian, the diet is not working, go and buy yoursefl a beef steak.
>Now."
>
>I did, and I have never looked back.
>
>Quetsion:
>
>Why do vegatarians take supplements if their diet is so good?
The same reason meat-
eaters take them, as a
"belt & suspenders"
measure to make sure
certain nutrients are
consumed in sufficient
quantities on a daily
basis. MDieties now
routinely recommend
them, regardless of
overall diet.
>
>Why do vegatarians eat :
>
>vegatarians burgers?
>vegatarian steak?
>vegararian patties?
Never touch any of the
above, although my elder
son is fond of those
veggieburgers -- his
grandparents introduced
that product to him and
he liked it. It really
bears little if any
resemblence to meat,
other than its shape.
>
>These are meat terms. You guys cannot give up eating meat, so you
>disguise your food.
>
I'll tell you what, Ken,
if you refrain from
generalizing about those
who don't eat flesh, I'll
continue to refrain from
doing so about those who
do. Folks who thrive on
a well-balanced meatless
diet *far* outnumber the
few who can't, but I'm
certainly not going to
classify *anyone* as a
drooling, slack-jawed
blood guzzler. You eat
meat for very sensible
reasons -- you
investigated and found
out what your body needed,
most people eat meat out
of pure, unexamined habit.
>Huh. ?
Indeed! :-)
sh...@my-deja.com
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 14:57:06 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >In article <Wt5qONaOGy0HY=wzN=UHQna...@4ax.com>,
> > iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> >> On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 20:39:12 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >>
> >> Thank you for your reply.
> >>
> >> However, according to your teachings souls may transmigrate to both
> >> animals and plants.
> >
> >That is right, soul can transmigrate to animals, birds, insects, reptiles,
> >water creatures, and plants.
> >
> >>
> >> So there is *no* difference in killing animals or plants, as both have
> >> souls.
> >
> >Both have souls, but the karma is like if you stole sombody's brand new
> >Lincoln, compared to stealing a brand new Escort.
>
> So according to you, it is ok to kill someone who is poor, and can only
> afford an Escort?? But to not kill a Lincoln owner?
No, what I was saying is this. If we kill an animal, it will bring us more
karma, than if we kill a bird. If we kill a bird, it will bring us more
punishment than if we kill and insect. If we kill an insect, it will bring
more karma than killing a plant. That was my point.
>
> Michael, theft/killing is theft/killing. Regardless of what you
> steal/kill, the results are the same. Humanity will punish you equally.
No, you are wrong. The degree of punishment will differ, as I wrote above.
>
> And besides, a person who can afford a Lincoln, will not suffer as much
> as those who can only afford an Escort.
You're way off the point.
>
> Lincoln owners will have more money, and can repurchase immediately,
> whereas the Escort owners will be worse off financially, therefore their
> suffering will be greater, as they cannot afford another car, nor the
> higher insurance premiums that an insurance claim would bring into
> effect.
>
> Think Michael, think.
>
> >If we have to kill something in order to live, then it should be the lowest
> >life forms, and that would be the plant kingdom.
>
> You are looking for excuses. A soul is a soul is a soul. All created by
> God.
No, I'm looking for something to eat, which will bring the least karmic debt
with it. It is vegetariasnism.
A soul is a soul, bodies have different values, as I pointed out above.
Having different values means, that we will get different punishment for
killing the different types of bodies. The plant kingdom brings us the least
punishment.
>
> >That would incur the least
> >karma. Killing an animal, which is just below humans, would incur relatively
> >more karma.
>
> A human soul is a soul. An animal soul is a human soul, transmigrated,
> according to you. A plant soul is a human soul transmigrated according
> to you.
>
> A soul is created by God. So there is no difference in killing a human
> soul, an animal soul, [which is a human soul in disgrace], or a plant
> soul [which is a human soul in disgrace].
>
> Your thinking is very poor, and shows you do not understand that there
> is no transmigration of souls, and also that a veggie or meat diet is of
> no consequence in enlightenment.
There is a big difference in the karma which a meat-eater adds to his
account, vis-a-vis a vegetarian.
>
> You see Michael, it is not the body that attains enlightenment, but the
> soul.
I never said that it was the body which attains enlightenmen. You are
straying from the point again. The soul can attain enlightenment, if it can
wash all the karmas off itself, by practicing Sat Guru Bhakti, and being
vegetarian.
>
> Please have a rethink about your pet theories.
My theory is the truth.
>
> >> In cutting cabbage for instance, the cabbage suffers, and dies, and
> >> begins to rot. So the cabbage is 'killed'.
> >
> >Yes, but that killing can be justifed, because we have to kill something to
> >eat and live. Killing animals can't be similarly justified, because God has
> >provided us with so many vegetarian alternatives.
>
> Your killing of anything is not justified, as all have souls, according
> to you.
God knows we have to eat something organic. We can't eat rocks.
>
> You are justifying your pet theories.
>
> Please re-think your position here.
I would advise you to rethink yours.
>
> >> I also disagree that one type of diet causes karma to come between man
> >> and God and slow down enlightenment. The body has no say in
> >> enlightenment, it is a function of the Self.
> >
> >Well, then, according to your theory, why are our "Selves," operating on this
> >physical plane?
>
> Well, you *do* know the answer to this question, because you yourself
> teach this.
>
> We are separated from God. We, as 'Self', separated from God. That is,
> the Self created this body in it's attempts to separate Self from God.
>
> That is why we try to attain 'Self Realization'. To get back to God.
> Self = the Image of God.
You didn't mention anything about the huge karmic debt, which we have
accumulated. We have to clear that, now, if we want that enlightenment,
which we used to have.
Shabd meditation and Sat Guru Bhakti is the only way to do that, now.
>
> >Why are we not in higher spiritual regions, where there is
> >more spiritual light and sound, where the Father can be seen and heard? IMHO,
> >our "Self" is operating here because of "karma," which has been assigned to
> >it.
>
> Self is operating here because it 'separated' from God. Actually it
> cannot, because we are always Self, therefore are always God. That is
> why we seek to 'return to God via Self Realization'.
Do you have access to him? We have forgotten how to go back to the Father.
Why did we forget? Our karmas made us forget.
>
> The belief in karma is a trap, designed to stop us from returning to
> God. Which you want for yourself and others, according to your
> teachings.
No, to not believe in karma is a trap. Bible says, "Forgive us our debts, as
we forgive our debtors." Everybody is separated from the Father, because of
that huge outstanding karmic debt.
>
> >You act like we have free will.
>
> We do not have free will. I have taught this from day one usenet.
>
> >That is antithetical to the truth.
>
> Correct, we both know this.
>
> > We
> >are like a puppet and karma is pulling the strings.
>
> But we should not let karma do this, because God did not create karma.
> Self did in it's attempt to separate; therefore karma is illusion.
Karma is very real, until we go beyond it. God created this illusion, also.
He has created everything. Just to say karma is illusion, or to say, "I am
one with God," will not remove the spiritual darkness which we are
experiencing. It will not give us access to the Father. Only Sat Guru Bhakti
and Shabd meditation will do that.
> Put
> this illusion of karma behind you, and realize you have the choice to do
> so, if you wish.
It is not that easy. There are Rishis, Munis, and Yogishwars, who have been
meditating for thousands of years, and still they are caught up in the
illusion. That is why it is imperative, that we find a True Master to take
us out of this illusion. We can't save ourselves at all.
>
> Love and blessings to you and yours,
Likewise,
sh...@my-deja.com
iam...@on.the.net wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2000 15:47:07 GMT, sh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> The answer to all your comments in this thread is brief:
>
> They are false, illusions. [maya]
>
> You yourself have taught that we separated from God.
>
> This separation was caused by "SELF", which was God's creation, in the
> Image of God Himself.
It is karma or ego, which is keeping us separated. We have sown seeds and
now we are reaping those crops.
>
> This Self has separated itself from God [well it thinks is has], and
> that is why we are 'here', and not aware of Self or God anymore. eg
> 'Heaven'
Yes, that is right, but this way of thinking can not change to an enlightened
way of thinking without the help of a Master and/or Mystic Transport.
>
> Anything not created by God cannot exist, so all here is illusion.
Yes, but it was created by him, also.
> Including all our pet theories, and pet theories are all the opposite of
> God.
Just because it is illusion, you contend that it is all right to kill
animals? Is that what you are saying? We will have to reap that ugly crop,
if that is the kind of seeds we will sow.
>
> None of your theories are based on the Love, Peace, Joy, Abundance and
> Happiness of God.
I have love for the animals, that is why I am vegetarian. Why don't you have
a similar love for them?
>
> All you wish to see is suffering, and therefore you can only teach
> suffering.
You are the one supporting the slaughterhouses, not me!!
>
> Have you ever tried to see people as they really are? As huge Beings of
> Light, created in God's image?
Have you ever tried to have love and respect for the animals' right to live?
>
> Try it, you will see then that you too are a huge Being of Light, and
> therefore can 'return' to God at any instant you wish.
If we practice Sat Guru Bhakti and follow a STRICT VEGETARIAN DIET, then we
can do that, but not as long as we are supporting the slaughterhouses.
>
> Peace and love to you Michael.
Likewise,
Michael Martin
>
> I have snipped your long reply, for which I thank you.
>
> Please re-think your understanding of the separation of Self from God,
> as this was the very first mistake Self made, and consequently
> everything else is a mistake, including the belief in karma, hell, last
> judgement, transmigration of souls and other doom and gloom theories.
>
> Meditate on the attributes of God, and that you were given these at
> Creation.