Sant Thakar Singh/Problems with Entity Possession
Robert Steinhaus
to Seekers of Truth
If you are considering initiation into the meditation practices of
Sant Thakar Singh it is valuable to disclose to you the following facts
which are sadly not always mentioned to prospective initiates by the
missionaries and representatives of the Master.
You should know about
ENTITY POSSESSION
There are major threats to your sanity and happiness that
unfortunately can and do arise out of taking the initiation and
receiving the “inner connection” from Sant Thakar Singh. A significant
number of initiates (between 10% to 30% of persons initiated) encounter
serious problems with entity possession. Entity possession entails the
loss of voluntary control over your own mind and body (some initiates
are subject to involuntary spasms, writhing, jumping, and hopping that
they can not successfully surpress) when under the influence of some
other being (an entity) that has seized control of them. Mental states
can also be profoundly affected while under the influence of an entity
and commonly they involve manipulation of the initiated by the entity
for the satisfaction of some appetite (for sex, for food, for alcohol or
drugs, or for vengeance). Entity possession is a very fundamental
violation of a person where you against your will are forced to give up
control of your self. Entity possession is a practical problem that has
contributed to the loss of capacity to hold a job, to safely drive a
car, and to the breakup of marriages and relationships among the
afflicted initiates. This serious condition occurs all too frequently
under the inner protection and guidance of Sant Thakar Singh and is
usually something not mentioned by his organization or his missionaries.
The risk of Entity possession is something you should care about and
investigate if you value your sanity and your health. The organization
of Sant Thakar Singh should be encouraged to reveal the extent of the
entity possession problems among the initiates (only the organization
has access to the membership and initiation rolls and can make the
surveys necessary to disclose the exact truth).
The minimum standard of competency in a spiritual teacher is that he
successfully defend the initiate souls from entity possession. If a
Master can not do this he is not safe to study under and sincere seekers
of truth should seek inner help elsewhere. Competent Masters of the past
like Kabir, Sawan Singh, and Kirpal Singh successfully defended the
initiate souls from the risk of entity possession. Entity Possession was
a surpassingly rare condition under these Masters and was generally only
observed momentarily at the time of initiation itself as the Masters
“cast out the demons” from the new initiates. Large number of initiates
did not have protracted chronic entity possession problems under these
previous Masters.
You should know
INITIATION is IRREVERSIBLE
Initiation is a very serious choice that has many long lasting
consequences. It is not a decision that should be entered into casually
but should rather be given the most serious consideration. The choice of
inner connection to the Master can not be undone once established
through the initiation. As part of the initiation process you will form
a subtle link with the Master sometimes called receiving “the inner
connection” that you can not give up unilaterally on your own no matter
how hard you try. Only by finding yet a higher Master and taking his
initiation can the bond to the old Master be broken. In many respects
the choice of taking a Master is a more critical choice to your
well-being and happiness than getting married as a marriage can be ended
in divorce but the inner link of connection to a Master can not be
broken by any efforts and endures even after death. It is important that
the person you are accepting initiation from be completely ethical and
perfect and that you be truly compatible with that person. After
initiation, you will be connected with your Master at high level inside
your consciousness. Your higher mind and soul will be blended or merged
to some extent with the Master. This is a powerful connection of great
intimacy and strength. Such connection can be a source for good where,
under a perfect Master, over time you take on some of the noble
qualities and competencies of the Master but can also be a source for
evil and entity possession if the Saint is not 100% ethical and
competent. Sadly, many many too many of the initiates of Sant Thakar
Singh suffer from chronic entity possession. In compassion and honesty
this fact can not be covered up and left undisclosed.
jody
>
> An Honest Disclosure
> to Seekers of Truth
[snipped total and completely irresponsible bullshit]
---
--jodyr.
Robert Steinhaus
entity possession while studying under Thakar Singh. What will help more
than diatribe and nasty names is evidence (what speaks for one side and
what speaks for the other side). Sadly, the chance to take careful,
accurate measurements of the full extent of the problem of entity
possession among the initiates of Sant Thakar Singh lies with the
organization of Sant Thakar Singh who have the names and addresses of
the initiates. A proper well conducted survey of the initiates could be
performed by the organization of Santa Thakar Singh and the facts
concerning entity possession among the initiates could be revealed to
all. Sadly, the organization of Sant Thakar Singh (Know Thyself as Soul)
shows no willingness to investigate the extent of possession problems
among the initiates. In my opinion the first step in any meaningful
effort to correct the wide spread and chronic problem of entity
possession among the initiates of Sant Thakar Singh is to determine and
measure the extent of the problem. I would propose to do that through
questioning and surveying the initiates. Sant Thakar Singh's
organization (Know Thyself as Soul) has thus far refused to consider
this step. Know Thyself as Soul is in denial of the problem and refuses
to do anything effective to help the many initiate sufferers. I feel the
problem of serious entity possession is widespread among the initiates
of Sant Thakar Singh. I would like to see all of Sant Thakar Singh's
initiates adequately protected from serious entity possession problems
as they attempt to follow his spiritual path. I would ask your help in
convincing "Know thyself as Soul" to take the first step toward
resolving this problem by making their initiate mailing list available
for the mailing of a scientific survey designed to measure the extent of
initiate entity possession problems among the initiates of Sant Thakar
Singh and then make the results of this survey available to prospective
seekers and all who wish to know. To consiously surpress information
important to the health and sanity of the large number of initiates
worldwide (in excess of 100,000) is irresponsible and lacks compassion.
jody
> > There are major threats to your sanity and happiness that
> > unfortunately can and do arise out of taking the initiation and
> > receiving the "inner connection" from Sant Thakar Singh. A significant
> > number of initiates (between 10% to 30% of persons initiated) encounter
> > serious problems with entity possession
>
> What IS it about this particular path that causes the danger?
> Would this also apply to solo practitioners of Buddhist
> mindfulness-type meditation? Any other meditative practices
> dangerous in this way?
There is no real danger, only imagined danger. The person who posted
this must have a grudge against Sant Thakar Singh.
Chances are he's got some psychological problems that have led him
to believe that he has been possessed.
If we trust God to guide us then there is no danger in *any* meditation
practice as long as it is practiced sincerely.
--jodyr.
Robert Steinhaus
Entity Possession is a very serious problem among the practitioners of
Sant Mat studing under Sant Thakar Singh. Sant Thakar Singh has well in
excess of 100,000 initiates and something between 10% to 30% of them
have serious entity possession problems. It is irresponsible to have
this much suffering taking place while making no mention of the problem
of entity possession to seekers (prospective initiates) considering
initiation. The problem of entity possession needs to be faced. The
problem of entity possession needs to be solved. The truth of the extent
of the problem needs to be revealed honestly to all considering Sant
Thakar Singh's version of Sant Mat as a path. To do less than this is
irresponsible and lacking in compassion.
I am mostly aware of the problem of Entity Possession in conjunction
with the path taught by Sant Thakar Singh. Chronic, widespread entity
possession problems are not common with most other paths I have been
exposed to. Students of the Buddist/Christian teacher Ching Hai who
teaches a sound/light meditation similar to Sant Mat do not seem to show
problems with entity possession except fleetingly at group initiations
when demons are "cast out". This is similar to what was experienced in
years gone by by Sant Mat Masters like Kabir, Nanak, Sawan Singh, and
Kirpal Singh. I am not aware of problems of entity possession
specifically with respect to Buddhist mindfulness-type meditation. I
would say, however, that the problem is of sufficient seriousness to
deserve checking on before you begin the practices. Choose a teacher and
path that has a good record on defending the initiates from entity
possession if you value your health and sanity. It is your choice and
your responsibility ultimately.
Robert Steinhaus
must respond to jody's previous post.
jody wrote:
> There is no real danger, only imagined danger. The person who posted
> this must have a grudge against Sant Thakar Singh.
The danger of Entity Possession among the Initiates of Sant Thakar Singh
is real enough. If you attended the recent tours of Sant Thakar Singh
(speciaically the stops at their Manav Kendra in Umpqua Oregon) you
would have had an opportunity to hear the back three rows (something on
the order of 20 to 30 people out of a gathering of about 150 people
screeming out of voluntary control in demon and animal voices) while
Sant Thakar Singh delivered his daily talks. Some of the entity
afflicted involuntarily flinch and hop. In some cases the possession is
more subtle and the impact is more emotional. All cases involve serious
loss of integrity where someone or something else takes over voluntary
control of you. Most of the people seriously afflicted have had their
entity problems for many years and many of them have had direct
treatments from Sant Thakar Singh to "exorcise the demons" or cast out
the entities. I am not aware of a single case where Sant Thakar Singh
has cast out an entity from an afflicted initiate and that person
remained clean and devoid of entities thereafter. All of the treated
initiates ended up acquiring other additional entities and their
suffering continued in a slightly different vein. This in my opinion is
unsatisfactory performance on the part of the Master. I believe that it
is the Master's responsibility to defend and protect all the initiated
souls entrusted to him and to provide basic protections for those souls
while they do the meditations and follow his path. If a Master can not
or will not provide basic protection for the initiates including freedom
from crippling entity possession while meditating he is not safe to
follow.
>
> Chances are he's got some psychological problems that have led him
> to believe that he has been possessed.
The numerous difficiencies (psychological and otherwise) of the author
of the the above quoted message may be considerable. What are the facts
concerning the extent of Entity Possession among the Initiates of Sant
Thakar Singh is more important. "Know Thyself as Soul", the organization
of Sant Thakar Singh needs to first determine the extent and severity of
entity possession problems among the initiates and then has a moral
responsibility to reveal to all who would consider Sant Mat as a path
the truth concerning the risks. First determine the extent of the
problem through honest testing/questioning and then take proper action.
>
> If we trust God to guide us then there is no danger in *any* meditation
> practice as long as it is practiced sincerely.
There are many sincere sufferers of entity affliction among the
initiates of Sant Thakar Singh (and this includes former National
Representative and missionaries in the direct service of the Master).
These sufferers have done the meditation practices for long years and
have observed the diet and the requirements explained at the time of
initiation religiously. I am happy if you have no experience of Entity
Possession (it would be a better world if it never occured). It is
commonplace among the initiates of Master Thakar Singh and routinely
explained away in various glib ways (the Master is using you to help
clear the inner realms by casting the imperfect entities into you that
you may clean yourself and them during your meditations, etc.). Until
you have stood in another man's mocassins and walked a mile with him I
do not think you are entitled to say that he does not suffer. You have
luckily not experienced serious entity possession and loss of voluntary
physical and mental control. You have probably not spent much time
around large numbers of Thakar Singh's Initiates. The problems of
serious entity possession sadly are real and the suffering resulting
from entity possession sadly is real. What is needed is to measure and
document the truth in an effort to reduce and eventually eliminate the
suffering.
>
> --jodyr.
jodyr
> It is clear we have a difference of opinion regarding the risks of
> entity possession while studying under Thakar Singh. What will help more
> than diatribe and nasty names is evidence (what speaks for one side and
> what speaks for the other side).
There can be no evidence of "entity possession" because the phenomena
does not exist, at least in the context of initiation.
This isn't a difference of opinion, it's a clear case of paranoid
fantasy vs. common sense.
--jodyr.
jodyr
> In the interest of being truthful (and just saying what is so) I find I
> must respond to jody's previous post.
>
> jody wrote:
>
> > There is no real danger, only imagined danger. The person who posted
> > this must have a grudge against Sant Thakar Singh.
>
> The danger of Entity Possession among the Initiates of Sant Thakar Singh
> is real enough. If you attended the recent tours of Sant Thakar Singh
> (speciaically the stops at their Manav Kendra in Umpqua Oregon) you
> would have had an opportunity to hear the back three rows (something on
> the order of 20 to 30 people out of a gathering of about 150 people
> screeming out of voluntary control in demon and animal voices) while
> Sant Thakar Singh delivered his daily talks.
This sounds like a case of mass hysteria. Your hysterical portrayal
of the situation confirms this.
It could also be a conspiracy against Sant Thakar Singh with the last
rows acting as if they were possessed.
Bottom line: the folks "experiencing" entity possession are probably
pretty darn unstable to begin with, and very impressionable to boot.
A good swift kick in the ass would probably bring 'em right back.
[snip]
--jodyr.
Robert Steinhaus
You are fortunate to be blissfully ignorant of the problems of those who
routinely suffer entity possession and its loss of voluntary control of
self and the attendant loss of personal integrity. Entity possession
happens to real people and the suffering is real suffering. Please do
not dismiss it out of hand because it does not fit with your
preconceived narrow view (you are lucky to have never experienced it.
You have probably not spent much time around large numbers of Sant
Thakar Singh's initiates). Why not look to see if there is any evidence
to suggest that there is a problem and try to measure its extent as a
step to eradicating the problem. Ask the national and international
organizations (Know Thyself as Soul) to reveal the accurate figures
regarding the prevalence of entity possession among the initiates.
>
> --jodyr.
jody
I don't see anyone jumping to your defense Robert. Is entity possession
a known malady in Sant Mat? If so that says a lot about the practice.
Why don't you take this issue to alt.meditation.shabda? It seems more
appropriate there.
The fact is that we are all the Self, which cannot be possessed. This
leaves your phenomenon a psychological one, which is why I contend that
it is hysteria, and not entity possession, that is affecting those "large
numbers" you are so concerned with.
--jodyr.
Robert Steinhaus
Entity possession is unusual in Sant Mat under previous Masters such as
Kirpal Singh and Sawan Singh. What tended to happen under previous
Masters of Sant Mat is that entity displays/problems only tended to be
seen at large mass initiations of typically 100 or more people in India.
These displays were temporary and limited to the time of initiation when
in most situations the entities or demons were "cast out". Under very
very rare circumstances there were rare cases where initiates for a
time showed some symptoms of entity possession after initiation (karmic
requirements might prevent release from entity possession at the time of
initiation in a few rare instances). These cases were surpassingly rare.
Other modern practitioners/Masters of Sant Mat do not have large number
of initiates suffering from entity possession. Entity Possession is not
a common condition in Sant Mat. The problem seems to surround Sant
Thakar Singh and his initiates. Any discussion of entity possession
problems is denied and suppressed by the national organization of Sant
Thakar Singh (Know Thyself as Soul). No information regarding the
prevalence of entity possession is given by missionaries and initiating
representatives of Sant Thakar Singh when seekers come to learn about
the path of Sant Thakar Singh.
Initiates can not protect themselves from entity possession (they
depend on the Master to protect them). If the Master can not or will not
protect the initiates they will become more wretched and sick as they
continue with the practices. Responsible compassion requires that honest
effort be made to reveal the extent of the problem and break to
conspiracy of silence and suppression of truth engaged in by the
national and international organizations of Sant Thakar Singh (Know
Thyself as Soul).
People do get sick and entity possessed while practicing the
meditation practices of Sant Thakar Singh. This problem is not isolated
to a few "hysteria" types but include large numbers of good people (10%
to 30%) of the initiates around the world. Honest efforts need to be
made by the organization of Sant Thakar Singh to survey and determine
the extent and seriousness of the problem prior to eradicating the
problem of entity possession among the initiates.
Yes we are all the Self, which is perfect (not possessed and not
sick). Practically, people on this plane (real beings in bodies) do get
possessed and do get sick. Initiate souls practically need the
protection of the Master while they strive to relies themselves as soul.
That protection must be provided for the path to be safe.
jodyr
[nsip]
> Yes we are all the Self, which is perfect (not possessed and not
> sick). Practically, people on this plane (real beings in bodies) do get
> possessed and do get sick. Initiate souls practically need the
> protection of the Master while they strive to relies themselves as soul.
> That protection must be provided for the path to be safe.
All real beings in bodies are still the Self and as such are in
no danger whatsoever. It is the suggestion you yourself are
providing by your paranoid rants that might lead folk into fear,
and then into a hysterical rendering of "entity possession."
My initiation did not include "protection" from entity possession,
as my guru knows that such is mere fantasy projection.
It is the fear of entity possession that manifests as entity
possession. Without fear there is no possession. The possession
is a direct result of the fear of the possession. It is a self
fulfilling prophecy, which you have unwittingly been promoting
via your unsubstantiated and seemingly delusional rants.
--jodyr.
Hc7900
If we trust God to guide us then there is no danger in *any* meditation
practice as long as it is practiced sincerely.
Hal> There can be great danger if you think you are more advanced that you
really are. Sometimes people are so arrogant that they call themself a Buddha
and drag all their students to the Avici Hells. Never trust a teacher who
calles him/herself a Buddha. They are just self possed demons from god realms
sent to take advantage of you in your time of weakness. Practice the Way with
humility.
Hal Cooper - hc7...@cs.com
Bowline Music Licensing / Enterprise Information Systems
jodyr
> If we trust God to guide us then there is no danger in *any* meditation
> practice as long as it is practiced sincerely.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is God's honest Truth.
Sincerity will, *in each and every case*, bring the seeker to the state
of grace.
We need not concern ourselves with demons or planes or spheres. They
all fold into the world of Maya and as such are non-issues.
Entity possession is a manifestation of hysteria, nothing more.
Its manifestation says a lot more about the person so affected than
it does about the guru giving the initiation.
[snip]
--jodyr.