Problems in Meditation
ne...@cyberway.com.sg
Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
the mind, enhancing health etc.
However it would appear that the problems attending meditation
practice have hardly been mentioned, let alone addressed in depth by
its advocates. These problems are as significant as the benefits
accruing to successful practitioners.
If you are experiencing or even suspecting any problems in or as a
result of meditation, you can e-mail me and I will try to give some
appropiate advice which may prove crucial to your progress in
meditation practice.
I have been a practitioner of various techniques of meditation for 17
years and have gone through hell and out of it.
I have also witnessed many a tragic cases among practitioners . I
have therefore done deep research into this science of human
development .
Today I hope to be of service to and share my views with other
practitioners of meditation through postings in these newsgroups and
via e-mail replies.
Best wishes!
Ken
larry semark
ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
>
> Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
> people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
> the mind, enhancing health etc.
Dear Ken,
Do you believe therefore that meditation is not good for people? If so,
what alternatives to it are there?
Larry
>
Stephen Jahner
In article <55929e$5...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
>Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
>people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
>the mind, enhancing health etc.
>
>practice have hardly been mentioned, let alone addressed in depth by
>its advocates. These problems are as significant as the benefits
>accruing to successful practitioners.
>
>If you are experiencing or even suspecting any problems in or as a
>result of meditation, you can e-mail me and I will try to give some
>appropiate advice which may prove crucial to your progress in
>meditation practice.
>
>I have been a practitioner of various techniques of meditation for 17
>years and have gone through hell and out of it.
>
>I have also witnessed many a tragic cases among practitioners . I
>have therefore done deep research into this science of human
>development .
>
>Today I hope to be of service to and share my views with other
>practitioners of meditation through postings in these newsgroups and
>via e-mail replies.
>
>Best wishes!
>
>Ken
>
>
>
Barbara
George Speer
This may have been offered from the heart...but it sounds like it creates
more fear! Particularly of the unknown problems. I have been meditating for
seven years and have not had any "problems" other than sore legs or back
from sitting for long periods. Please explain what major problems you have
had!
Stephen Jahner <sja...@sojourn.com> wrote in article
<55dqea$d...@tkhut.sojourn.com>...
Don Smith
In article <55929e$5...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
>If you are experiencing or even suspecting any problems in or as a
>result of meditation, you can e-mail me and I will try to give some
>appropiate advice which may prove crucial to your progress in
>meditation practice.
I have a sneaking suspicion that his advice would be "surrender to
Jesus" or something like that.
Perhaps you can be upfront about it and give your advice to everyone?
Don
Joseph Penney
Meditation is not scientic, and attempts to quantify or
define it seldom lead to much success.
There are more roads to where you want to go than you think.
Experimentation is not a bad thing.
Adherence to any particular religion or philosophy is
coincidental to meditation, you need not be pure of heart,
body, or mind. You can deal with that later, if you wish.
Your god Bubbha isn't really that rigid, I would suspect.
- Joe in Nova Scotia
ne...@cyberway.com.sg
larry semark <sem...@unm.edu> wrote:
>Dear Ken,
>Do you believe therefore that meditation is not good for people? If so,
>what alternatives to it are there?
>Larry
>>
Dear Larry,
The known benefits that result from success in meditation are true.
However, this statement must be qualified by the recognition of the
hazards involved:
For instance, if meditation is said to enhance mental power, then it
is also true that if not properly done -- e.g. excessive meditation --
it will lead to the opposite result.
The reasons are various, one being that the meditator could have
overtaxed, through excessive practice, the lower order (the
life-force) of his mental energy. This could lead to neurasthenia and
the loss of coherence of thought processes.
The latter could culminate in a number of psychotic problems including
insanity and possession by inimical forces. These problems are very
real and may defy orthodox medical treatment. However there are
certain self-help methods and remedies which the practitioner can
employ.
It is unfortunate that little has been said or written about such
hazards in books and instructions on meditation. In fact, schools of
meditation often instructs their followers to meditate for long hours
daily. Nothing could be more dangerous.
So am I saying that meditation is of no value? On the contrary, it is
precisely because meditation is a very powerful method of quickening
the human evolution, that a more complete knowledge is needed --
something which is unfortunately lacking even in highly esteemed
traditional meditation treatises.
I should know that because during my difficult times, I sought
everywhere for some insight into my problems -- but without avail .
In the end, I had to think deep and hard and tried out various things
to resolve the problems encountered.
My experience reminds me of Gopi Krishna, the writer of the book
Kundalini, who went through the hellish experience of raising the
kundalini, and who sought out the many the experts and masters of yoga
in India for help -- all to no avail.
If normal living is compared to walking, then meditation could be
compared to travelling in a fighter plane. No one would think of
flying a fighter plane unless he is ready -- physically fit and well
instructed in every way (e.g. understand the mechanisms, the dangers
involved in flying at high speed and how to overcome them .)
Yet the truth is that the vast majority of meditators -- including
myself -- took up meditation without being similarly prepared by their
instructors. The first one year or so of practice, things may be
alright and one reaps certain prelimary benefits as claimed by
meditation schools. However as one moves along, the hidden hazards
begin to show and yet one may yet fail to make the connection.
A friend of mine who almost went mad and nearly perished during his
sleep as a result of meditation, later told with me with deep
bitterness that two meditation schools he sought instructions from
have failed to guide him properly. He had since gave up meditaiton.
Such stories are not uncommon. In fact others are not so lucky as that
friend of mine.
What I have just said is only a few of the many hazards involved in
meditaion. The entire subject is very wide and the problems involved
differ from case to case. I would therefore suggest that anyone
experiencing any problem with meditation to contact me via e-mail.
Because I have gone through many of those problems and know how
unspeakably terrible they can be -- in terms of impacting badly on one
personal health and social, occupational and family life -- I would
not want other well-meaning individuals to go through the same.
Ken
ne...@cyberway.com.sg
Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
the mind, enhancing health etc.
However it would appear that the problems attending meditation
practice have hardly been mentioned, let alone addressed in depth by
its advocates. These problems are as significant as the benefits
accruing to successful practitioners.
If you are experiencing or even suspecting any problems in or as a
result of meditation, you can e-mail me and I will try to give some
appropiate advice which may prove crucial to your progress in
meditation practice.
I have been a practitioner of various techniques of meditation for 17
Caden Schaefer
In article <55iqrg$4...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, ne...@cyberway.com.sg says...
>
>larry semark <sem...@unm.edu> wrote:
>A friend of mine who almost went mad and nearly perished during his
>sleep as a result of meditation, later told with me with deep
>bitterness that two meditation schools he sought instructions from
>have failed to guide him properly. He had since gave up meditaiton.
>
I don't buy it. I am not impressed in the least by accounts of people going
mad because they didn't get guidance from some wise person. Do you really
think people are at risk of losing their minds if they don't send you email
and learn the "real" way to meditate? Is sitting on a cushion not thinking
so complicated that it requires classes and gurus?
I think not. This sounds like hocus pocus to me. Your evidence is
unscientific in the extreme. Have you considered that these "deep-end" cases
could have been loopy TO BEGIN WITH? It's the old Dungeons and Dragons
argument: He was really into D&D and he killed himself. Must have been the
D&D. If only we had GUIDED him...
I don't mean to be adversarial. I just think we are in danger of trumping up
the power of a simple act because it makes us feel more adventuresome.
--caden
Gypsy Jayne
Don't post this stuff to alt.folklore.herbs and BTW
Buddha is not a god, just a wise person.
On 3 Nov 1996 20:48:07 GMT, Joseph Penney <j...@istar.ca> seemed to
type:
~Meditation is not scientic, and attempts to quantify or
~ define it seldom lead to much success.
~
~ There are more roads to where you want to go than you think.
~
~ Experimentation is not a bad thing.
~
~ Adherence to any particular religion or philosophy is
~ coincidental to meditation, you need not be pure of heart,
~ body, or mind. You can deal with that later, if you wish.
~
~ Your god Bubbha isn't really that rigid, I would suspect.
~
~
~ - Joe in Nova Scotia
Gypsy Jayne
England
. . . at least the wheels go round . . .
Dr. Larry Semark
ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
>
>>
> So am I saying that meditation is of no value? On the contrary, it is
> precisely because meditation is a very powerful method of quickening
> the human evolution, that a more complete knowledge is needed --
> something which is unfortunately lacking even in highly esteemed
> traditional meditation treatises.
>
Dear Ken,
Do you feel that most people should avoid getting into meditation until
more studies are done on it or until more knowledge is obtained?
Do you feel that some schools may have the complete knowledge?
Thanks,
Larry
sam...@aol.com
>
>Because I have gone through many of those problems and know how
>unspeakably terrible they can be -- in terms of impacting badly on one
>personal health and social, occupational and family life -- I would
>not want other well-meaning individuals to go through the same.
>
>
Your post appears to be a testimonial to being thorough from the start.
That is, before one takes instruction/initiation into meditation/sadhana,
thoroughly investigate whether or not the teacher/guru/instructor is
qualified to impart. To build on your anaolgy of the fighter pilot, are
not only the very best instructors allowed to teach? Mass initiations,
initiation thru agency, mailed instruction, and even mass acceptance of
anybody who plunks down their money to me is the root cause of yours and
others problems with meditation, not meditation per se.
Frankly, it appears most people take more time and do more research into
their dog sitter than they do their meditation instructor.
Personally, I would rather take my meditation 'problems' to one who has
finished the climb and can guide the way to the top, rather than someone
who turned-out
at the rest stop.
Sam
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker
that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."........ Adam Smith
Can we add the Living Eck Master to the list?
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."........ Adam Smith
Can we add the Living Eck Master to the list?
Haezl
ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
>Today I hope to be of service to and share my views with other
>practitioners of meditation through postings in these newsgroups and
>via e-mail replies.
>Best wishes!
>Ken
The Rolling Green Hills
How much our sense of the immediate, the “reality” depends
on little cues from our environment of which we seem so unaware.
When a portion of those cues is removed, it changes perception,
changes reality. “So much depends upon a red wheelbarrow in the rain
beside the white chickens.” (this is the talk of William Carlos
Williams) When the cues change, so does the reality. If enough
changes are happening and we have time to notice it can induce a sense
of vertigo. I have felt it so strongly it was difficult to function
in any ordinary sense.
I took it as an opportunity to purposely change many
things, embraced the vertiginous quality and rode its back like a
reeling camel. The result is the present and the knowledge that
although “reality” may be coming apart or slowly unwinding I can trust
in the landing in a new reality. I can know how the present moment is
built upon the trust in the preceeding moments and into an uncertain
future. Like a spider reeling silk I float with the prevailing wind.
The malleability of circumstance can be accepted. The future is
unknowable.
I like to think of driving long distances as a form of meditation.
We can let this overlay of reality drop for awhile yet we are busy
with the present in a mindful way. We let the extra cues drop into
the background and when the wheels in our head stop spinning what
is left is the collective sense of what is real. Forget the turn-offs
and side roads slipping by. Farmhouses in the distance keep their
coming and going, and we sit transfixed. Cars are overtaken, cars
overtake you. The white line is scattered and blinking with brilliant
yellow flashes. Don’t focus on that or you will be hypnotized and
dangerous.
Among the rolling green hills, if someone approaches from a
distance they will appear and disappear in relation to the viewer.
If the viewer keeps moving, the recurrence of this phenomenon will be
so complex that a mapping of the terrain will be necessary to keep an
overview in order to predict future sightings. But this will be
impossible as long as both keep moving. And if they stand still,
chances are good they will remain out of sight of each other.
Perhaps some kind of apparatus becomes necessary to maintain
contact. If something is hoisted high enough (an antenna) both movers
can keep track as they extend beyond the visual horizon. This will
work fine as long as they keep their antennae with them. Suppose they
periodically abandon their antennae?
Eyes on the horizon, critical thinking held to just the
immediate
adjustments and open to the present is a special kind of
consciousness. If the mind can be kept free from hours of conversation
with itself it can rest, relax and open to new perceptions. Like the
spider I float with the wind, new places in the mind can be reached
that are not on the map. Focussing only on the present does this, as
the present is all that exists.
When the thinking mind is emptied the collective mind of all
living beings becomes available. There is only one mind. With
practice that drops away, too. What remains is a collection of
ripples bouncing and reflecting each other. Wait long enough and
this will settle. Dust that has clouded the mirror that is mind will
fall away, the Goddess will speak and a new universe is born.
Blessed be,
Haezl
at Brigit's Garden
an organic herbal offering
Joseph Penney
Hi Sam,
It seems to me that there is considerable debate over who is a
qualified master of meditation. The qualifications aren't standardized,
as in, say, chemistry. So, people are left to the advice of others in their
selection of a teacher.
The problem with this approach is that people often end up taking on
a whole new religion along with meditation. Buddhism, taoism, etc. are subtle
in nature, many of the concepts are alien to western thought. It takes some
time to truly understand these religions. Some people never develop more
than a half-baked understanding.
This is why I advocate self-taught meditation. You can pick and choose
from many different techniques, experiment, and maybe find a way that is good
for you. You can get the religion later, if you like.
Eran
larry semark wrote:
>
> ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
> >
> > Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
> > people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
> > the mind, enhancing health etc.
>
>
> Do you believe therefore that meditation is not good for people? If so,
> what alternatives to it are there?
>
> Larry
> >
Hi Larry,
I stopped practicing Transcendental Meditation (TM) several days ago,
because despite TM helps relax the physical body such as muscle and
brain very deeply TM is very stimulating!! In other words, it stimulates
the brain and thus it "purifies" the consciousness. Also, it can cause
emotional troubles as well as physical aggressiveness such as
hyperactive and probably wild in the long run of TM practice. Therefore,
it is not good for mental and emotional health, but it is good only for
physical health. :-) Life is unfair! So, the best alternative to it is
art!! Painting art of oil or arcylic is very soul-soothing, and it is
the best healing for mental and emotional health!! You can paint art and
at the same time it does not interfer your well-being from organic food
eating or any holistic medicine taking at all. Try art - good luck! :-)
Eran
Isabell Mori
In article <55iqrc$4...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, ne...@cyberway.com.sg says:
>
>Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
>people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
>the mind, enhancing health etc.
>
>practice have hardly been mentioned, let alone addressed in depth by
>its advocates. These problems are as significant as the benefits
>accruing to successful practitioners.
>
>If you are experiencing or even suspecting any problems in or as a
>result of meditation, you can e-mail me and I will try to give some
>appropiate advice which may prove crucial to your progress in
>meditation practice.
there's a wonderful saying that i'm sure you must have come across in
your travels:
"IF YOU SEE THE BUDDHA ON THE ROAD, KILL HIM"
... so ... "appropriate advice", "crucial to your progress" - i don't
know ... having been somewhat influenced by the zen tradition, i
personally am quite suspicious of the idea of "progressing" in meditation.
i even suspect that some problems that come up in meditation - and yes,
they do come up, inevitably - are entirely related to this need and push
for progress.
isn't it possible that we are already enlightened (whatever that means),
that we don't have anywhere to progress to because we already are where
we need to be - and that all we have to do is lift the veil of illusions?
the trick is to find out when we let this veil be lifted gently, and
when we allow it to lift more rapidly. but that's very, very personal
and has to be gauged by every individual for him or herself. how will
your adive help with that? (i am not saying that it won't, i am just
asking you)
>I have been a practitioner of various techniques of meditation for 17
>years and have gone through hell and out of it.
>
>I have also witnessed many a tragic cases among practitioners . I
>have therefore done deep research into this science of human
>development .
>
>Today I hope to be of service to and share my views with other
>practitioners of meditation through postings in these newsgroups and
>via e-mail replies.
well, yes, but i've found that wanting to be of service can be just
another trap, just another illusion - how do you deal with that?
isabella
>Best wishes!
>
>Ken
>
>
>
Isabella Mori
In article <3280F3...@earthlink.net>, Eran <mr...@earthlink.net> says:
>
>larry semark wrote:
>>
>> ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
>> >
>> > people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
>> > the mind, enhancing health etc.
>>
>>
>> Do you believe therefore that meditation is not good for people? If so,
>> what alternatives to it are there?
>>
>> Larry
>> >
>
>Hi Larry,
>
>I stopped practicing Transcendental Meditation (TM) several days ago,
>because despite TM helps relax the physical body such as muscle and
>brain very deeply TM is very stimulating!! In other words, it stimulates
>the brain and thus it "purifies" the consciousness. Also, it can cause
>emotional troubles as well as physical aggressiveness such as
>hyperactive and probably wild in the long run of TM practice. Therefore,
>it is not good for mental and emotional health, but it is good only for
>physical health. :-) Life is unfair! So, the best alternative to it is
>art!! Painting art of oil or arcylic is very soul-soothing, and it is
>the best healing for mental and emotional health!! You can paint art and
>at the same time it does not interfer your well-being from organic food
>eating or any holistic medicine taking at all. Try art - good luck! :-)
>
>Eran
hmmm ... yes ... unless you're someone like vincent van gogh ... and
oil painting is only soul soothing until you have enough toxins in
your body from inhaling oil fumes all the time ...
yes, art is/can be wonderful and soul soothing and everything else that's
good. so can TM, jogging and sex. and 500,000 other things.
sorry - but what gets my goat here and with so many other postings is
this idea that there is ONE solution to whatever problem.
isabella
Eran
Hi Isabella,
I am not someone like Vincent Van Gogh, and I am not making fun of
anybody in the alt.folklore.herbs newsgroup. I am serious.
You can try other painting's mediums that are not harmful to your
health. Nothing is impossible by the reality. :-)
When you paint any picture, you express your emotions out. Then you will
become calmer and feel much better mentally and emotionally. I am
telling you the truth. In reality, there is no proven panacea. Any
meditation does not make you calm emotionally and mentally, but it is
very stimulating your body such as blood circulation and immune system
while it is making you only relaxed physically. Art, jogging, sex and
500,000 other things are not the same solution nor the panacea. Art is
very special healing only for emotional health. You can continue any
holistic healing and paint pictures at the same time- it is no problem.
I think you do not have experience with art painting, and how it affects
you. You do not have to be an artist nor to have a talent to paint
pictures to satisfy your emotions. For example, I painted only one color
of yellow or black all over the canvas board - that helps to release my
emotions out. *You just paint pictures whatever you feel*. Please try to
paint several pictures and see for yourself; I bet you will be very
grateful! :-)
Eran
scr...@aol.com
good for you..i teach viapassana and always make sure clients know what it
is about. meditation is not visualization or guided imagery. new agers
have made meditation something it is not. Relaxation comes from reducing
the judging of contents of the mind.
namaste
stephen
Dr. Larry Semark
Eran wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> I stopped practicing Transcendental Meditation (TM) several days ago,
> art!! Painting art of oil or arcylic is very soul-soothing, and it is
> the best healing for mental and emotional health!! You can paint art and
>
> Eran
Dear Eran,
Thanks for the info, I agree with you 100%, however, I have no artistic
talent at all. I can paint stick people but that is about all!
What do you suggest?
Thanks
Larry
sam...@aol.com
> I'm ashamed of you, Sam.
Really? Please keep it for yourself.
> You're usually so good at getting down to real root causes, and here
> you lose it totally, and accuse symptoms of being root causes.
> All of the methods you describe above, have been used by totally valid
> meditation masters.
In the past I would agree with you, having experienced the difference in
transmission of information and tranmission of initiation, today I do not.
If you are talking about information about meditation I still agree. If
you are talking about the touch of the master, the activation, the
acceptance of the respective roles of guru/disciple (as when Arjuna
recognized Krishna for who he really was, not cousin, but master). I feel
this can only be accomplished in the physical presence of the permitted
master.
> The real root cause of all the problems in this thread is simply
> learning "meditation" from someone who doesn't really know what they
> are doing.
Yes, this combined with disturbing the unripe minds of curiousity seekers
by mass distribution of information guaranteed to confuse many minds.
> Simple.
> [ And, you were 95% of the way there in your message.... ] :-)
Gee, thanks. :(
Namaskar,
>>
And to you.
Marc Breault
ma...@airmail.net wrote:
Thanks for this message. I don't think you were long winded and I
think you state your case well. I have gone to some meditation
schools and even tried yoga, but I have been somewhat unlucky in
finding a good teacher. I have taught myself some basics of
meditation and it has been very helpful to me. I have also seen some
of the down side. Like most things, though, you can only go so far by
yourself, unless you happen to be Einstein, which I'm not.
Therefore, how would you go about determining whether a school or
teacher is a good one? What should I look for? I mean, you go to
some of these places and they tell you to imagine you're in a garden
and they spend half an hour describing some sort of serene flower bed
and I walk away either having fallen asleep or wondering what that was
all about. Maybe that stuff is good for relaxation, but I have found
relaxation is only one benefit of meditation.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
>I have similarly hunted the wumpus for 25 years and I have to say Ken
>has a point. From my experience, it is ESSENTIAL to prepare for the
>deeper meditation experiences by first restraining and disciplining
>the physical, emotional, and mental life as described in many yoga
>texts as the first four of the eight means to yoga. The first two
>particularly are important. These are briefly:
>
>The Commandments or Yama: Harmlessness, truth to all beings,
>abstention from theft, from incontinence, and from avarice,
>
>and,
>
>The Rules or Nijama: Internal and external purification, contentment,
>fiery aspiration, spiritual discretion, devotion to God within.
>
>The necessity for this is that the practice and disciplines above
>bring a person's behavior, from gross to subtle, under control of the
>will via the mind. Meditation is the scientific methodology of
>contacting and merging with the Soul. When the contact begins to
>occur, great energies can flow from the higher soul to the lesser
>personality thereby illuminating and energizing the mental, emotional,
>and physical aspects of the personality via the primary pranic
>distribution centers of the subtle body. If these personality aspects
>have not been integrated under control of the will, imbalance can
>occur with subtle or disastrous results.
>
>For example, a thought-life that has not been disciplined and is
>uncontrolled, when energized, can result in racing thoughts, short
>attention span, distraction, illusion, delusion, etc.. A similar
>situation exists in the emotional arena and the physical body as well.
>
>Sorry to be long-winded but I know first hand the pain of ignorance
>and defiance, as well as the ecstacy and exaltation of "right yoga".
>You may find Romans 7:14 to 8:30 interesting in light of the
>preceeding. I also recommend Book 2 of Patanjali's Yoga Sutras and
>(one more) the Bhagavad Gita is a classic allegory of the struggles of
>the awakening aspirant (Arjuna) on the battlefield of life. :)
>
>Mark
>
Eran
Hi Dr. Semark:
Thank you. You do not need to have an artistic talent to paint any
picture just to express your emotions out. If you know how to smear
butter with a knife on a slice of bread, you can paint any simple
picture with any vivid color. You can paint an abstract picture by
painting (smearing) with any color any place on a canvas board just like
that. Also, you can paint only one color on a canvas picture. For
instance, Vivid yellow color expresses as a warm sunny day. Vivid bright
blue color (mixing blue with white colors) expresses as a blue sky as
serene feeling. Black color expresses as a peaceful and quiet night.
Green expresses as a peaceful, cool lawn in a soothing shadow in a late
afternoon. You paint a picture whatever you feel. Do not critisize
yourself. You don't need to paint complicated pictures like "Mona Lisa"
picture in Louvre museum- no, no, no way. Just paint a simple or a wild
colorful picture. . . .
Good luck
Eran :-)
Marc Breault
ne...@cyberway.com.sg wrote:
>Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
>people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
>the mind, enhancing health etc.
>
>However it would appear that the problems attending meditation
>practice have hardly been mentioned, let alone addressed in depth by
>its advocates. These problems are as significant as the benefits
>accruing to successful practitioners.
>
>If you are experiencing or even suspecting any problems in or as a
>result of meditation, you can e-mail me and I will try to give some
>appropiate advice which may prove crucial to your progress in
>meditation practice.
>
>I have been a practitioner of various techniques of meditation for 17
>years and have gone through hell and out of it.
>
>I have also witnessed many a tragic cases among practitioners . I
>have therefore done deep research into this science of human
>development .
>
>Today I hope to be of service to and share my views with other
>practitioners of meditation through postings in these newsgroups and
>via e-mail replies.
>
>Best wishes!
>
>Ken
>
>
>
Dear Ken,
I find this very interesting. I look at it from another point of view
but I basically agree that we need to look into this further. I
consider prayer to be a form of meditation. I'm not talking about the
"God is great, God is good, let us thank him for our food" type of
prayer. I'm talking about intense prayer. Put another way, the same
things that happen to brain waves etc., with meditation can happen in
prayer.
If you look at most of the saints, who were known for there intensity
and almost constant prayer, most of these were sick, died young, and
were generally frail. Quite a number would be classed as crazy today.
I suppose there could be a number of causes for this. For example,
saints tended to deprive themselves of food etc.
But meditation involves more than simply relaxing. You can relax
mentally by playing basketball or riding a bicycle. Meditation often
brings on an altered state of consciousness which stimulates certain
parts of the brain not normally stimulated. If one has too much
intensity (meditating too much) it makes sense to me that this could
have some bad effects.
Marc
Isabell Mori
>> >Hi Larry,
>> >
>> >I stopped practicing Transcendental Meditation (TM) several days ago,
>> >brain very deeply TM is very stimulating!! In other words, it stimulates
>> >the brain and thus it "purifies" the consciousness. Also, it can cause
>> >emotional troubles as well as physical aggressiveness such as
>> >hyperactive and probably wild in the long run of TM practice. Therefore,
>> >it is not good for mental and emotional health, but it is good only for
>> >art!! Painting art of oil or arcylic is very soul-soothing, and it is
>> >the best healing for mental and emotional health!! You can paint art and
>> >
>> >Eran
>>
i hope i didn't offend anyone here with my comment re art, jogging, sex,
etc. i think the way i put it was somehow flippant. however, i meant
what i said. you see, i still have the impression that you tout
art as a panacea. and if it works for YOU, fine, all the power to you!
but i am serious that sex and jogging and music and cooking and 500,000
other things can be just as miraculous an experience for someone else.
i have done a lot of painting and drawing in my life (can't help it when
you grow up among artists). have also done art therapy, and have
gained valuable experiences that way. but i also know that the deep
involvement with art, just like the deep involvement with meditation,
just like all the other 500,000 things, can bring with it pain and
sorrow and desperation on many levels. that's what my vincent van gogh
comment was about.
again, if i have offended someone with my flippancy, i apologize.
isabella
Steven M. Stoltz
sam...@aol.com writes:
>If you are talking about information about meditation I still agree. If
>you are talking about the touch of the master,
The true touch of a Master is the "kiss" of glimpses into his omnipresence.
>the activation, the
>acceptance of the respective roles of guru/disciple (as when Arjuna
>recognized Krishna for who he really was, not cousin, but master). I feel
>this can only be accomplished in the physical presence of the permitted
>master.
Didn't anyone ever tell you that to make love to a woman, you had to
take off her clothes ? So, you must see the omnipresence behind the mask.
Steve
Steven M. Stoltz
sam...@aol.com writes:
>>
>>Because I have gone through many of those problems and know how
>>unspeakably terrible they can be -- in terms of impacting badly on one
>>personal health and social, occupational and family life -- I would
>>not want other well-meaning individuals to go through the same.
>>
>>
>Your post appears to be a testimonial to being thorough from the start.
>That is, before one takes instruction/initiation into meditation/sadhana,
>thoroughly investigate whether or not the teacher/guru/instructor is
>qualified to impart.
I have found that the guru-disciple relationship works best when there
is absolute trust in the guru. Yes, one should look for a true
guru that is qualified to impart divine consciousness, however, once one
has made up their mind that they have found what they are looking for - they
should be absolutely committed to the sadhana, or else it isn't a sadhana.
What this means in practical terms is that one should get busy with their end
of the guru-disciple relationship committment - by surrendering to their
guru's teachings as fully as possible - without any further suspicious
investigations (i.e. ego rebellions ... ) After all, if you don't obey
the Master's teachings, how can you ever expect to make any progress towards
an unconditionally blissful existence ?
>To build on your anaolgy of the fighter pilot, are
>not only the very best instructors allowed to teach?
Yes, that would be true. However, the proof is in the pudding of one's
actual experience of faithful practice - i.e. one should learn not to get
too caught up in mere claims which appeal to the ego and to the conditioned
intellect These things don't equate to actual success.
>Mass initiations,
>initiation thru agency, mailed instruction, and even mass acceptance of
>anybody who plunks down their money to me is the root cause of yours and
>others problems with meditation, not meditation per se.
To me root causes of failure come from anything less than unconditional
loyalty to the practice one is involved in - even if that practice is
only on the level of dogmatic religion. After all, you get what you put
into it - if your love is unconditional - so will be your reward.
For that reason, I regard your comment about mass initiations as a rather
humorous rebellion of the ego. After all, not only is it clear that you
regard the mere act of initiation as a substitute for actual attainment, but
that you are also stuck in some false country club notion about which finite
mask the omnipresent must wear once it finally condescends to give you
initiation.
Rather than concentrating on what tools you have been given to dig the dirt,
get busy digging. After all, a sledge hammer in a weak man's hands will yield
less results than a jail-breaker's ice pick.
>Frankly, it appears most people take more time and do more research into
>their dog sitter than they do their meditation instructor.
Yes, but some people spend all their time looking, and none of their time
striving ...
>Personally, I would rather take my meditation 'problems' to one who has
>finished the climb and can guide the way to the top, rather than someone
>who turned-out at the rest stop.
Frankly, I would rather take my problems to someone who can give me the
endurance that I need to run uphill without stopping ...
>Sam
Steve
sam...@aol.com
In article <568dhv$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
sto...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Steven M. Stoltz) writes:
>>If you are talking about information about meditation I still agree. If
>>you are talking about the touch of the master,
>
>The true touch of a Master is the "kiss" of glimpses into his
omnipresence.
Perhaps you should study the subject more in depth. The physical touch of
the master has played an integral part in the lives of countless spiritual
aspirants. I believe Yogananda had his first experience with Samadhi when
his guru, Sri Yukteswar tapped him over the heart. Ramakrishna sent many
of his disciples into Bliss with a touch. The examples are multitudinous.
>>the activation, the
>>acceptance of the respective roles of guru/disciple (as when Arjuna
>>recognized Krishna for who he really was, not cousin, but master). I
feel
>>this can only be accomplished in the physical presence of the permitted
>>master.
>
>Didn't anyone ever tell you that to make love to a woman, you had to
>take off her clothes ? So, you must see the omnipresence behind the
mask.
You've obviously not been 'initiated' into the joys of clothed
love-making.
Ah well.
Be diligent in your digging......
sam...@aol.com
In article <568d6k$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
sto...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Steven M. Stoltz) writes:
>
>I have found that the guru-disciple relationship works best when there
>is absolute trust in the guru. Yes, one should look for a true
>guru that is qualified to impart divine consciousness, however, once one
>has made up their mind that they have found what they are looking for -
they
>should be absolutely committed to the sadhana, or else it isn't a
sadhana.
>
>
>What this means in practical terms is that one should get busy with their
end
>of the guru-disciple relationship committment - by surrendering to their
>guru's teachings as fully as possible - without any further suspicious
>investigations (i.e. ego rebellions ... ) After all, if you don't obey
>the Master's teachings, how can you ever expect to make any progress
towards
>an unconditionally blissful existence ?
So, you are one of those who sacrifices their critical faculties in order
to seek bliss?
As Ken Wilber so aptly put it (paraphrase) "Some people want to come from
their heart thereby avoiding that obstruction known as their brain."
>>To build on your anaolgy of the fighter pilot, are
>>not only the very best instructors allowed to teach?
>
>Yes, that would be true. However, the proof is in the pudding of one's
>actual experience of faithful practice - i.e. one should learn not to get
>too caught up in mere claims which appeal to the ego and to the
conditioned
>intellect These things don't equate to actual success.
Thank you master for overstating the obvious.
>>Mass initiations,
>>initiation thru agency, mailed instruction, and even mass acceptance of
>>anybody who plunks down their money to me is the root cause of yours and
>>others problems with meditation, not meditation per se.
>
>To me root causes of failure come from anything less than unconditional
>loyalty to the practice one is involved in - even if that practice is
>only on the level of dogmatic religion. After all, you get what you put
>into it - if your love is unconditional - so will be your reward.
>For that reason, I regard your comment about mass initiations as a rather
>humorous rebellion of the ego. After all, not only is it clear that you
>regard the mere act of initiation as a substitute for actual attainment,
but
>that you are also stuck in some false country club notion about which
finite
>mask the omnipresent must wear once it finally condescends to give you
>initiation.
Spoken like a true fanatic. If you think it is humorous then why are you
not laughing? Why is your reaction so full of rancor? Unconditional
loyalty not to Self, not to Truth, not to Freedom; but to one's practice.
:(
Mass initiation is, in my opinion, a disservice to the seeker, who is
unique in his/her spiritual needs.
Do not put words in my mouth, young man. Nowhere do I say the act of
initiation is a substitute for anything. Your comment is false,
misleading, and self-serving and is counter-productive to whatever cause
it is that you play frontman.
>Rather than concentrating on what tools you have been given to dig the
dirt,
>get busy digging. After all, a sledge hammer in a weak man's hands will
>yield less results than a jail-breaker's ice pick.
Thank you, master.
>>Frankly, it appears most people take more time and do more research into
>>their dog sitter than they do their meditation instructor.
>
>Yes, but some people spend all their time looking, and none of their time
>striving ...
>
>>Personally, I would rather take my meditation 'problems' to one who has
>>finished the climb and can guide the way to the top, rather than someone
>>who turned-out at the rest stop.
>
>Frankly, I would rather take my problems to someone who can give me the
>endurance that I need to run uphill without stopping ...
Without stopping?? What on earth is your hurry?
Swa...@www.cardnet.net
In article <328b678e....@news.zippo.com> <19961108060...@ladder01.news.aol.com> <568dhv$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
sto...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Steven M. Stoltz) wrote:
>
> sam...@aol.com writes:
> >If you are talking about information about meditation I still agree. If
> >you are talking about the touch of the master,
> The true touch of a Master is the "kiss" of glimpses into his omnipresence.
> >acceptance of the respective roles of guru/disciple (as when Arjuna
> >recognized Krishna for who he really was, not cousin, but master). I feel
> >this can only be accomplished in the physical presence of the permitted
> >master.
> Didn't anyone ever tell you that to make love to a woman, you had to
> take off her clothes ? So, you must see the omnipresence behind the mask.
Radhe Radhe !!!
For best on meditation, you might want to check out
Iwas finishing the PhD. program in India,
(Sanskrit grammar), when I stumbled across some
things that were too fantastic to pass on. Just trying
to pass it on. It's there if you go deep. Sorry about the
packaging material, but it's so difficult, but not impossible
to express it in English. Let me know if it helps.
Fundamental difference: 3D Meditation makes it very
easy to engage the entire mind.
There's a little that's not at the site yet, but you'll
have to write me to get it, pluss oodles of science that
provides the backgraound that'll be there soon, plus pictures.
BUT: the 2 key meditations are there. They work, and fast. All
yours. Right? Write.
Radhe Radhe(=Hi&Bye in some Dialects, Pure LOve in Sanskrit)
Swami Shridhar Anand.
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News]
Steven M. Stoltz
sam...@aol.com writes:
>In article <568d6k$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>sto...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Steven M. Stoltz) writes:
>>What this means in practical terms is that one should get busy with their
>end of the guru-disciple relationship committment - by surrendering to their
>>guru's teachings as fully as possible - without any further suspicious
>>investigations (i.e. ego rebellions ... ) After all, if you don't obey
>>the Master's teachings, how can you ever expect to make any progress
>towards an unconditionally blissful existence ?
>So, you are one of those who sacrifices their critical faculties in order
>to seek bliss?
I'm not sure what "sacrificing one's critical faculties" has to do with
applying a Master's teachings as best one can to their life.
>As Ken Wilber so aptly put it (paraphrase) "Some people want to come from
>their heart thereby avoiding that obstruction known as their brain."
Putting the heart in charge of the brain's activities doesn't mean that
the brain is incapacitated ...
>>>Mass initiations,
>>>initiation thru agency, mailed instruction, and even mass acceptance of
>>>anybody who plunks down their money to me is the root cause of yours and
>>>others problems with meditation, not meditation per se.
>>
>>To me root causes of failure come from anything less than unconditional
>>loyalty to the practice one is involved in - even if that practice is
>>only on the level of dogmatic religion. After all, you get what you put
>>into it - if your love is unconditional - so will be your reward.
>>For that reason, I regard your comment about mass initiations as a rather
>>humorous rebellion of the ego.
>> .... etc. ...
>Spoken like a true fanatic.
Fanatics have only one way of seeing things - their way. When confronted
with an opinion that contradicts what they have been conditioned to accept
as true, rather than trying to support their view with a more detailed
explanation; they usually divert the attention away from the issue with an
emotional outburst. :)
>If you think it is humorous then why are you not laughing?
>Why is your reaction so full of rancor?
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I am full of rancor.
I admit, that in my younger days I used to get upset when people disagreed
with me - but, now I know that rational people can discuss their different
viewpoints without resorting to anger.
>Mass initiation is, in my opinion, a disservice to the seeker, who is
>unique in his/her spiritual needs.
I was not saying that there are no advantages to the one-on-one approach,
after all; I'm rather open minded ... :) ....
All I was saying is that your post places more emphasis on the initiation
than on what comes afterwards. Further, your post doesn't give any
justification for why mass initiations are a diservice. In effect, all
you are saying is that, "My way is true, everyone else's way is not valid,
sorry that's the way it is ... " Further, since you keep putting the
statement "shall we include the Eck Master on the list" as your closing
remark, then perhaps the following statement is appropriate:
Mr. McElwaine are you above an explanation ? :)
>Do not put words in my mouth, young man.
Would I act like such a bad dude ?
>Nowhere do I say the act of
>initiation is a substitute for anything.
I agree with you on that - your words do not say it. However, your words
*DO* imply it. After all, you DID say that certain forms of initiation
were invalid, which means that you feel that one is better off spiritually
merely because of the vehicle through which the initiation came to him.
Thus, while your words do not explicitly say that initiation is a substitute
for spiritual progress, you do imply that - one cannot advance spiritually
unless one is granted a face-to-face initiation.
>Sam
>Can we add the Living Eck Master to the list?
Let's not invite him to our party .... let's wait until he starts talking
for himself instead of letting his thugs do all his "fantastic P.R." work for
him ...
Steve
bevs...@aol.com
Steven M. Stoltz writes:
>Didn't anyone ever tell you that to make love to a woman,
------------------
Steven,
You write about the true touch of a master.
And then you write this.
Your master's been hiding some important secrets
from you.
Pause from teaching for a moment,
and use your mind, dear.
----Just B
sam...@aol.com
In article <568dhv$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
sto...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Steven M. Stoltz) writes:
>>If you are talking about information about meditation I still agree. If
>>you are talking about the touch of the master,
>
>The true touch of a Master is the "kiss" of glimpses into his
omnipresence.
Perhaps you should study the subject more in depth. The physical touch of
the master has played an integral part in the lives of countless spiritual
aspirants. I believe Yogananda had his first experience with Samadhi when
his guru, Sri Yukteswar tapped him over the heart. Ramakrishna sent many
of his disciples into Bliss with a touch. The examples are multitudinous.
>>the activation, the
>>acceptance of the respective roles of guru/disciple (as when Arjuna
>>recognized Krishna for who he really was, not cousin, but master). I
feel
>>this can only be accomplished in the physical presence of the permitted
>>master.
>
>Didn't anyone ever tell you that to make love to a woman, you had to
>take off her clothes ? So, you must see the omnipresence behind the
mask.
You've obviously not been 'initiated' into the joys of clothed
love-making.
Ah well.
Be diligent in your digging......
Sam
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker
that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
interest."........ Adam Smith
Can we add the Living Eck Master to the list?
sam...@aol.com
In article <568d6k$5...@prometheus.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
sto...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Steven M. Stoltz) writes:
>
>I have found that the guru-disciple relationship works best when there
>is absolute trust in the guru. Yes, one should look for a true
>guru that is qualified to impart divine consciousness, however, once one
>has made up their mind that they have found what they are looking for -
they
>should be absolutely committed to the sadhana, or else it isn't a
sadhana.
>
>
>What this means in practical terms is that one should get busy with their
end
>of the guru-disciple relationship committment - by surrendering to their
>guru's teachings as fully as possible - without any further suspicious
>investigations (i.e. ego rebellions ... ) After all, if you don't obey
>the Master's teachings, how can you ever expect to make any progress
towards
>an unconditionally blissful existence ?
So, you are one of those who sacrifices their critical faculties in order
to seek bliss?
As Ken Wilber so aptly put it (paraphrase) "Some people want to come from
their heart thereby avoiding that obstruction known as their brain."
>>To build on your anaolgy of the fighter pilot, are
>>not only the very best instructors allowed to teach?
>
>Yes, that would be true. However, the proof is in the pudding of one's
>actual experience of faithful practice - i.e. one should learn not to get
>too caught up in mere claims which appeal to the ego and to the
conditioned
>intellect These things don't equate to actual success.
Thank you master for overstating the obvious.
>>Mass initiations,
>>initiation thru agency, mailed instruction, and even mass acceptance of
>>anybody who plunks down their money to me is the root cause of yours and
>>others problems with meditation, not meditation per se.
>
>To me root causes of failure come from anything less than unconditional
>loyalty to the practice one is involved in - even if that practice is
>only on the level of dogmatic religion. After all, you get what you put
>into it - if your love is unconditional - so will be your reward.
>For that reason, I regard your comment about mass initiations as a rather
>humorous rebellion of the ego. After all, not only is it clear that you
>regard the mere act of initiation as a substitute for actual attainment,
but
>that you are also stuck in some false country club notion about which
finite
>mask the omnipresent must wear once it finally condescends to give you
>initiation.
Spoken like a true fanatic. If you think it is humorous then why are you
not laughing? Why is your reaction so full of rancor? Unconditional
loyalty not to Self, not to Truth, not to Freedom; but to one's practice.
:(
Mass initiation is, in my opinion, a disservice to the seeker, who is
unique in his/her spiritual needs.
Do not put words in my mouth, young man. Nowhere do I say the act of
initiation is a substitute for anything. Your comment is false,
misleading, and self-serving and is counter-productive to whatever cause
it is that you play frontman.
>Rather than concentrating on what tools you have been given to dig the
dirt,
>get busy digging. After all, a sledge hammer in a weak man's hands will
>yield less results than a jail-breaker's ice pick.
Thank you, master.
>>Frankly, it appears most people take more time and do more research into
>>their dog sitter than they do their meditation instructor.
>
>Yes, but some people spend all their time looking, and none of their time
>striving ...
>
>>Personally, I would rather take my meditation 'problems' to one who has
>>finished the climb and can guide the way to the top, rather than someone
>>who turned-out at the rest stop.
>
>Frankly, I would rather take my problems to someone who can give me the
>endurance that I need to run uphill without stopping ...
Without stopping?? What on earth is your hurry?
Sam
ma...@airmail.net
OK Zen....meditation is an adventure of discovery of what is NOT.
..I agree that "service" to others can be a potent bond of attachment.
I have often engaged in this with tragic (yet humorous...now) results.
I embarassed myself quite thouroughly many times. :) ...like the
foolish cyote who chewed off his other three legs to get out of the
trap.
Mark
ivon...@sfu.CA (Isabell Mori) stated:
>In article <55iqrc$4...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, ne...@cyberway.com.sg says:
>>
>>Meditation has always been touted as a universal panacea for troubled
>>people -- dissolving stress, achieving self enlightenment, empowering
>>the mind, enhancing health etc.
>>
>>However it would appear that the problems attending meditation
>>practice have hardly been mentioned, let alone addressed in depth by
>>its advocates. These problems are as significant as the benefits
>>accruing to successful practitioners.
>>
>>If you are experiencing or even suspecting any problems in or as a
>>result of meditation, you can e-mail me and I will try to give some
>>appropiate advice which may prove crucial to your progress in
>>meditation practice.
>there's a wonderful saying that i'm sure you must have come across in
>your travels:
>"IF YOU SEE THE BUDDHA ON THE ROAD, KILL HIM"
>... so ... "appropriate advice", "crucial to your progress" - i don't
>know ... having been somewhat influenced by the zen tradition, i
>personally am quite suspicious of the idea of "progressing" in meditation.
>i even suspect that some problems that come up in meditation - and yes,
>they do come up, inevitably - are entirely related to this need and push
>for progress.
>isn't it possible that we are already enlightened (whatever that means),
>that we don't have anywhere to progress to because we already are where
>we need to be - and that all we have to do is lift the veil of illusions?
>the trick is to find out when we let this veil be lifted gently, and
>when we allow it to lift more rapidly. but that's very, very personal
>and has to be gauged by every individual for him or herself. how will
>your adive help with that? (i am not saying that it won't, i am just
>asking you)
>>I have been a practitioner of various techniques of meditation for 17
>>years and have gone through hell and out of it.
>>
>>I have also witnessed many a tragic cases among practitioners . I
>>have therefore done deep research into this science of human
>>development .
>>
>>Today I hope to be of service to and share my views with other
>>practitioners of meditation through postings in these newsgroups and
>>via e-mail replies.
ma...@airmail.net
ma...@airmail.net
By "initiation" I presume you mean transmission of shakti?...i.e. the
"quickening"?...
Mark
In the End there can be only One.
kst...@mail.telis.org (Ken Stuart) stated:
>Hello,
>In an eloquent manner, sam...@aol.com elucidated:
>>If you are talking about the touch of the master, the activation, the
>>acceptance of the respective roles of guru/disciple (as when Arjuna
>>recognized Krishna for who he really was, not cousin, but master). I feel
>>this can only be accomplished in the physical presence of the permitted
>>master.
>The Mahabharata (same scripture as Krishna and Arjuna) tells the
>famous story of the disciple who is initiated
>without the knowledge of the guru. Dronacharya was the
>world-reknowned guru of the warriors. Ekalavya wanted nothing more
>in life than to be the disciple of Dronacharya, but Drona could not
>take disciples (like Ekalavya) who were not warrior-caste.
>So, Ekalavya made a statue of Drona and worshipped it as his Guru.
>After such worship, he would practice archery (the epitome of warrior
>skill at that time). After a time, Ekalavya becamed reknowned as
>perhaps the most skilled warrior in the land, and when some of Drona's
>students asked him who his Guru was, they were surprised to hear him
>answer "Drona". When they mentioned this to Drona himself, he
>confirmed that he had not instructed Ekalavya in any way, and knew
>nothing of Ekalavya's discipleship.
>The clear point of this scriptural story is that it is the intention
>of the disciple that is the key, not any action taken by the guru.
>The intention does not need to happen in the physical presence of the
>guru.
>Furthermore, scriptures say that when a realized master does intend to
>initiate a disciple (ie the intention is mutual), then the master can
>initiate by touch, look, thought, or intention.
>Namaskar,
>Ken
Steven M. Stoltz
bevs...@aol.com writes:
>Steven M. Stoltz writes:
>>Didn't anyone ever tell you that to make love to a woman,
>>you had to take off her clothes ? [...]
>------------------
>Steven,
>You write about the true touch of a master.
>And then you write this.
>Your master's been hiding some important secrets
>from you.
>Pause from teaching for a moment,
>and use your mind, dear.
>----Just B
After thinking about your post, I was wrong about one thing. I
didn't mention that half the fun is trying hard to get a woman
to consent to the whole process ...
So, I was wrong about not mentioning about this consent process ...
After all, not only is consent needed, but it can often be
difficult to attain ...
:)
Steve
P.S.
Of course, once consent is given, then my original comments are fully valid.
bevs...@aol.com
Steven M. Stoltz writes:
>bevs...@aol.com writes:
>
>>Steven M. Stoltz writes:
>>>Didn't anyone ever tell you that to make love to a woman,
>>>you had to take off her clothes ? [...]
>>------------------
>>Steven,
>
>>You write about the true touch of a master.
>>And then you write this.
>
>>Your master's been hiding some important secrets
>>from you.
>
>>Pause from teaching for a moment,
>>and use your mind, dear.
>
>>----Just B
--------------------
>After thinking about your post, I was wrong about one thing. I
>didn't mention that half the fun is trying hard to get a woman
>to consent to the whole process ...
>
>So, I was wrong about not mentioning about this consent process ...
>After all, not only is consent needed, but it can often be
>difficult to attain ...
>
>:)
>
>Steve
>
>P.S. Of course, once consent is given, then my original
>comments are fully valid.
>
>-------------------
Steve,
Admirable try.
Still not it.
Regards,
----Just B
JiMMER
This is about where i'd like to start...
I've dabbled with a couple of techniques, but would like to get some opinions on a
good starting technique that I can stick with, and have it evolve into much more..
Just out of curiosity, a friend of mine mentioned that meditation can produce
halucinations - is this true?
I've heard that it is all about the sould being located in the third eye (forehead),
and when meditating or on a halucinogen the sould is shifted onto a different plane,
in which everything is seen differently... Is this close to what anyone else
believes/knows?
Please excuse my ignorance!
--
___ ___ _ _
: |___> ..'may the forewinds blow you safely home'.. (_\ /_)
| |---./--\/--\/--,/--\/--\/--\/----\.-----. "Happiness \_\ /_/ - - /:
/--;| | : : ; o | .'__) is a \_\/_/ - - / |
| | | | | ; | | ; | .---' | hand-held / _/ ) - -/ |
| v | | | | : | | : \___. | sail..." | /(_/ ) - /___|
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