FYI:EGG SUCKING WEAZELS! LOOOONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Shan Leslie
group over the last 6 - 9 months due to the struggles of a small core
group of 'old timers' against the slick scam artists, bunko tricks and
spam spreading maggots targeting AMF among other news groups for
financial gain.
A few people will support and defend the hucksters who try to prevail
here..
Others want all the flaming to stop and don't care who is involved. They
just want to stick their heads in the sand and let the storm roll by.
And then there are the scammers who will in turn attack and abuse the
very people who are trying to expose their lies and hypocrisy here and
try to get the news group to believe that they are 'control freaks' who
wish to run this news group.
Let me tell you all something....I have NO wish to control or run
ANYTHING..except my own life. But I get sick and tired of seeing people
defending these bunko artists and con- men/women who try to suck the
life out of this group. I'm tired of getting flamed by the weirdos and
freaks who abuse this ng in the name of insanity and deviousness to turn
a buck!
Therefore..I spent alot of time and effort to show this news group just
a little bit about ONE of these scammers who continually surfaces
here..to sell- berate and abuse.
I asked myself if this was worth the time I spend digging up this
information. I wondered if ANYBODY would even care, with the exception
of a small loyal group, who I know do care what happens here. Am I
wasting my time posting this here..? I don't know.
What I do know is this is soild evidence that this man 'appears' to be
making a living off alot of sick people in various health related ways.
I'm talking about Capt. David 'Licorice' Williams, the flim flam man.
This guy surfaces here on a regular basis to hawk his wares. What is
note worthy to me..is he leaves a pretty interesting and revealing trail
throughout cyberspace, as he wends his way peddling his snake oil
remedies , on web pages or directly to health related news groups just
like ours.
I also noticed David Williams is adept at changing the presentation
depending on who is audience is....but trys to cleverly hide his real
name under assorted alias'es and mailing addresses.
He also promotes
NET WORK MARKETING...
no big SURPRISE!
snip..<<Spare-Time MLM but Full-Time INCOME! more options
Author: Jean L.
SanfordEmail:js...@worldnet.att.netDate:1998/05/15Forums:alt.business.multi-level.exceltel
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CONFESSIONS of aNetwork Marketing
Millionaire
Dale Calvert - The Millionaire -
and a 15 yr MLM Veteran, writes:
How would YOU like to develop a network marketing organization of 61,307
distributors and over 80 Million $$$ in sales?? YOU CAN !!>>snip
Well well..so much for his altruistic claims!!
If you notice the addy ABOVE & BELOW you'll see he used the same one
when he posted here a short time back as 'Jean Sanford' but forgot and
signed it 'david'.
snip..<<Jean L.
SanfordEmail:js...@worldnet.att.net:1998/01/24Forums:alt.med.fibromyalgia
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Over the past few months, I have corresponded with quite a few of you
via
e-mail regarding Fibromyalgia. Many of you have requested information
about the friends I have that have Fibromyalgia. Some of you have even
sent me your regular mail (snail mail) address so that I could send you
information.
For those of you that haven't written...let me update you. I have 5
friends that have Fibromyalgia. It is through these friends that I found
out about Fibromyalgia. It is through a network of support groups and
word-of-mouth that we all found out about herbal supplements that were
helping people with Fibromyalgia. As a matter of fact, my friends are
now symptom-free from the pain of Fibromyalgia; except for one - she
started in November, 1997 and is well on her way to wholeness again. I
was so excited about the results that my friends were having, that I
thought I should tell others about it! So I tried to...again and again
.. But after a few months, I came to the conclusion that a lot of the
people who frequent these bulletin boards really DO NOT want help. They
really DO NOT care to find out about what is helping other people. All
they want to do is bitch and complain and MOAN about how hard life is.
They want to talk about how no one cares and how much they hurt. People
want to get sympathy, NOT HELP.
Well... I don't have the time, nor the energy to try and help people
that really would rather bitch and complain about what life has dealt
them. You DO NOT WANT help! DO NOT E-MAIL ME if you just want to use my
time and use me or other people. I'm tired of people who just want to
sit back and have people feel sorry for them. I DO NOT feel sorry for
ANYONE that will not help themselves FIRST! For those of you who really
do want help, my advise is to try support groups in your local area. The
people on this board just want to bitch and complain. Please don't let
them lead you on and think that they care about helping you. Because
they just want people to complain to. Sorry for the long post ... I'm
outta here..... David>>
( Yeah Right!! LOL!!)
Dave Williams uses the alias ' David L. Smith' to peddle weight loss:
snip,,<<HOLIDAY WEIGHT GAIN? LOSE IT!!!!!!!! more options
Author: David L.
SmithEmail:Dad2...@juno.comDate:1997/12/31Forums:nc.charlotte.forsale,
misc.forsale more headers
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David L. Smith posted the following article in the For Sale Forum
http://www.he.net/~brumley/boards/forsaleboard.html Dated : December 31,
1997 at 19:42:51
Subject: HOLIDAY WEIGHT GAIN? LOSE IT!!!!!!!!
http://www.he.net/~brumley/boards/forsalemessages/2972.html E-MAIL FOR
INFO ON WEIGHTLOSS! All-natural. Many health benefits +
weight-loss!>>snip
How do I know it's David...???
Please check the following addys on this next one..and compare both
emails..
snip,,<<Herbal Alternative - Safe, Proven, & Effective against
ARTHRITIS more
options
Author: Jean L.
SanfordEmail:js...@worldnet.att.netDate:1997/11/30Forums:misc.health.arthritis
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I recently talked to yet another person who has had tremendous relief
from Arthritis by taking herbal supplements. I have been taking the same
thing for almost a year now.
Here is my story. I have a hair-line crack in my left knee due to
Osgood-Slater's disease, developed when I was 13 or 14 yrs. old. The
knee surgeons could promise no relief. For years, I lived with the pain.
When I turned 30, there would be days when I was taking 8-10 extra
strength Tylenol trying to dull the pain. But the pain NEVER went away!
In January, 1997 I was introduced to a herbal supplement. By this time,
the extra strength Tylenol had stopped working - even when I took up to
12 in one day! After 2 weeks f taking the supplement - the pain that I
had endured for more than 20 years HAD DISAPPEARED! Did I become a
believer? Of course! Was my case an isolated incident? Since January, I
have talked to more than 37 people who have had the same - or better -
results! It works!
Because it worked so well for me, I'll share it with you!
Just e-mail me at Dad2...@juno.com>>
He is David L. Smith, Jean L Sanford and Dad2...@juno.com...all rolled
into one snake oil salsman...!!!!!!! LOL!!.
BTW..he picked the wrong disease..
( ever notice how every ad for 'cures' he either knows someone or has it
himself with all recieving 'MIRACULOUS CURES??!!') when he picked Osgood
Schlatter because this is a predominately CHILDHOOD ailment..hahahah!!
Better luck NEXT time..david!!!
snip..<<OSGOOD-SCHLATTER DISEASE(Osteochondrosis) OSGOOD-SCHLATTER
DISEASE
(Osteochondrosis)
GENERAL INFORMATION
DESCRIPTION
Osgood-Schlatter disease is a temporary condition of the leg at the
knee, characterized by swelling, tenderness, and pain. The tibial
tubercle, a prominence just below the knee cap attached to a large thigh
muscle connecting the bone of the upper leg (femur) to the large bone in
the lower leg (tibia), is involved. This disorder often affects both
knees. Osgood-Schlatter disease is most likely to affect adolescents. It
is uncommon after age 16...From the Complete Guide to Pediatric
Symptoms, Illness & Medications by
H. Winter Griffith, M.D. © 1989 The Putnam Berkley Group, Inc.;
electronic rights by Medical Data Exchange>
BTW..david couldn't even spell this disease correctly that he's
supposely had all his life..
His claims cover a wide array of disease cures..including FIBRO - CFS -
AIDS/HIV - ATHRITIS -WEIGHT LOSS and ADD/ADHD...ect.
snip..<<Scientist writings on antioxidant. more options
Author: John
PalmerEmail:jpal...@ix.netcom.comDate:1997/12/08Forums:alt.support.attn-deficit
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On 6 Dec 1997 14:48:25 GMT, "Jean L. Sanford" <js...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
I prefer to keep things really simple by asking >myself 2 questions:
Does it work really well in dealing with ADD/ADHD?
And the answer is "no, it doesn't. There is absolutely no evidence
worthy of mention that it does, and there is no reasonable theory why it
should."
Are there any harmful side-effects or
adverse > results to taking it?
And the answer is "yes, if effective treatment
is foregone due to the pursuit of worthless treatment." The antioxidant
that I am familiar with, really works >well in helping children and
adults that have >ADD/ADHD. Then you *DO* have a study showing
this, right? Sure you do.
Post a synopsis of the results. . .
There are also no side-effects -
after all, it is all-natural.
And as everyone knows, curare has no side
effects; it is, after all, all-natural. Estrogen has no side effects; it
is, after all, all-natural. Aspirin has no side effects; it is, after
all, all-natural.
Just curious: Are you actually this stupid, or
are you just putting on an act?
Sometimes it is easy to get caught up in this Dr. >says such and such,
this research claims etc, this study shows... All I >really care
about is:
Well this has been long and drawn out..but some of the people on this
news group need a wake up call..concerning defending and supporting
people like david who come here as wolves dressed up in sheeps
clothing..actually I take that back..I DON'T want to insult EITHER sheep
OR wolves!!
But you get my drift.
Did I dig all this up only to have half of you scoff and tell me never
mind..?? I hope not..but ask yourself how many times you've REALLY
investigated these guys..before you start flaming me for trying to point
them out.
And yeah..I'll get plenty of flack from david over this..and from people
like him..but it was worth it if ONE newbie understands why all the
OLDTIMERS here are always harping on certain disreputable people popping
up here.
Food for thought.
BTW...IS THIS 'OUR' DAVE THE FLIM FLAM MAN...????
Snip...<<<Recently we've seen a proliferation of slick, four-color
mini-magazines extolling various individuals as health gurus. "Dr. David
Williams" once claimed merely to be "leading the worldwide search for
natural remedies." Since then he has humbly proclaimed himself to be
"America's #1 expert in natural healing" and "the 'Indiana Jones' of
natural medicine." Back when he was "leading the world wide search"
he was pictured in a library. After proclaiming himself "#1 expert"
he pictured himself in a white coat, holding a stethoscope, surrounded
by the trappings of medicine. Williams has a celebrity picture of
himself standing next to 60 Minutes reporter Mike Wallace who is
publicizing shark cartilage as a cancer cure. Who is this funny guy?
Williams is a chiropractor who apparently prefers publishing
medicine-bashing, health-hype to popping spines. Williams has been
writing and publishing his personal newsletter Alternatives "For the
Health Conscious Individual" since 1989. I n 1993, he went slick with "a
special supplement to Alternatives, dubbed Breakthroughs in Healing (is
this guy original, or what?!) Williams claims to have 130,000 readers
across America. (p.15) Our reading of his mini-magazines leads to
the conclusion that "#1 expert" Williams merely reiterates the same
unsubstantiated claims for health food products that have been being
made for many years. It seems like his "research" has been simply
reading health foods propaganda. Williams proclaims "the secret of the
astonishing new all-natural cancer cure!" "The secret of the
incredible new heart protection vitamin!" "The secret of the
remarkable ultratrace mineral that beats chronic arthritis!" "The
secret of nature's sure-fire cure for high cholesterol!" "The secret
of the remarkable 29 cent herb that helps revitalize your immune
system!" "The little known amino acid that reverses sexual impotence
like magic!" (Gee, Dave, these sound terrific!) "Doctor" Williams
also warns his readers about misinformation being foisted on us by the
bad old "medical monopoly." Williams tells readers not to use sunscreen,
rather, rub on "a simple solution of vitamin C and water." "Beware
of the aspirin a day craze"; if you want to "achieve the same anti-blood
clotting results as aspirin, take bromelain, an all natural extract of
pineapples."
According to the Lawrence Review of Natural Products (7/93), bromelain
is a proteolytic enzyme used to tenderize meat. Medically, it has been
used in burn injury debridement and to reduce soft tissue inflammation
and irritation. The pharmacologic effects of bromelain are caused by
an enhancement of serum fibrinolytic activity and inhibition of
fibrinogen synthesis. It lowers kininogen and bradykinin serum tissue
levels and has an influence on prostaglandin synthesis. Since
bromelain is absorbed unchanged from the intestine at a rate of about
40%, it may have some of the benefits of aspirin, which also increases
fibrinolytic activity and influences prostaglandin synthesis.
However, aspirin has an experimental research record of effectiveness
that bromelain does not. Williams has no experimental basis for his
assertion that bromelain has the same anti-clotting features and to
imply that it is preferable.
Despite Williams' overconfident proclamations, the following weasel
words* appear inside the front cover:
The approaches described in this special report are not offered as
cures, prescriptions, diagnoses or a means of diagnosis to different
conditions... The author or publisher assume no responsibility in the
correct or incorrect use of this information and no attempt should be
made to use any of this information as a form of treatment without the
approval and guidance of your doctor.
Thus, Williams taunts his readers with advice that they are warned not
to apply!
*"From the weasel's habit of sucking the contents out of an egg while
leaving the shell superficially intact: a word used in order to evade or
retreat from a direct or forthright statement or position" (Webster's
New Collegiate Dictionary>>
BTW..for those interested in licorice and possible health related
treatments..there's plenty of info on the web..just put in 'licorice
root' and take your pick.
We don't need people coming here trying to sell us something. We're all
adults and perfectly capable of finding these things our self..or
sharing what works with others without browbeating storm trooper tactics
and the hard sell shell game.
Shan :-)
Who is finished now and stepping down off her soap box..going to drink a
much longed for and needed latte now...
"When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
never tried before"
Mae West
Click here for Troll/Spam tension release
http://members.tripod.com/~webtv6/scream.wav
Cathy Wilheim
would like to rid the news group of such people, but I know that is
impossible as long as we want to maintain a free and open exchange of
information. The price of that freedom is vigilance against the scam and
spam artists.
Please don't give up.
Cathy in Wichita
Shan Leslie wrote in message
<18371-36...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Kathy
for us and I appreciate it.
Kathy in Galveston
Priestess
typing!) all this info. We all *knew* the L-man was a #$@, but YOU have
provided the solid proof!
--
Jean
ICQ# 19761807
xjeah...@mindspring.com remove the x blah blah
Breathe life into this feeble heart
Lift this mortal veil of fear
Take these crumbled hopes, etched with tears
We'll rise above these earthly cares
Cast your eyes on the ocean
Cast your soul on the sea
When the darK night seems endless
Please remember me
-- Loreena McKennitt
Dixon2rl
nothing lower than an idiot who preys on the ill and the elderly. Thanks
Katroberts
you Shan for going to all that trouble!
Kathy in Sacto
Roanna1
>Kathy in Sacto
I'm also in Sacramento. Did you about fall apart today?
Roanna
RickMo3
ANYTHING..except my own life. But I get sick and tired of seeing people
defending these bunko artists and con- men/women who try to suck the
life out of this group. I'm tired of getting flamed by the weirdos and
freaks who abuse this ng in the name of insanity and deviousness to turn
a buck! >>
I hope people took the time to really read and understand just what Shan went
thru for all of us.
To be perfectly honest, Shan has a lot more honor and stick-tuit-iveness than I
do anymore to go thru all the machinations she and a few others of the the
oldies-but-goodies here do to protect and inform members of the wierdos and
trolls that so often seem to stop by here in the last few months.
I personally can't abide it anymore and rarely visit except to check in and see
how some of my old friends are doing. There are so many good and honest people
here who deserve a place where they can go for information, some humor and
support. Instead, this has turned into a trolling spot for some of the most
obnoxious people I've ever run into!
Between Dave, Swisstime, Gabsol, Matron, Birdie ad infinitum I'm just plumb
tuckered out from fighting.
I've actually seen people make up alter egos and come here as someone else to
defend his own spamming, trollish activities. How sick is that? Pretty damn
sick...
And yet, there are those who defend and actually attack the good guys when they
haven't a clue as to what the hell is really going on. No matter what someone
says, there always seems to be someone ready to attack on topics they clearly
know "Nothing" about. ie -dmjudge on Dot... It's positively nauseating.
In all my time here, I've never seen Dot, Fran, Shan (and many others for that
matter) ever attack someone who didn't deserve it.
While I wish you all well--I really must take a long hike. It's really too
painful to see the truly sensitive and caring people being bombarded by idiots
while newbies are forced to try to come in new and decide who are "the good
guys"
In case you're interested, I believe Shan made the point far batter than
anyone..
Moe
******Half Full, Half M.T.******
Moe
HRTLDY
Thank you for opening his pandora box. The more we are informed the better we
can be prepared. Thank you.
Wishing you rainbows,
Connie
Angloanne
It must have taken you an age to do this and there is so much information
there about Capt. Dave, he may be the first professional spammer/troller !
Great work
Love
Anne (UK)
Shan Leslie
SamL99 posted in defence of Capt David Williams here..and IS'NT it
INTERESTING he's been caught doing the same thing over at CFS..!!
Jeez..will the REAL capt Dave ( alias
1) Jeans Sanford
2) dad2jane
3) David L. Smith-SamL.99..) ..PUL-EEEEZE stand up!! LOL!!!!
<<Author: SamL99Email:sam...@aol.comDate:1998/10/26Forums:alt.med.cfs
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wow, Gregg! first, i resent being called a liar and having my identy
challenged. i posted to this group many years ago under difference
server and never once got called a liar.
secondly, you should examine the site. it says nothing about what you
say it does. and everything the man says is backed by a link to a
medical abstract.
all he's saying is that hhv6 has been found to re-infect from pockets in
the gums of people with gum disease. i have had perdontal problems for
10 years and cfs for the same lenght of time so i though the stuff was
very interesting form the point of view of re-activated viral
infections.
i posted some of this guys stuff on the fm goups and many over there did
the same thing you are doing. came out on the attack with guns balzing
without having read a word of what the guy has on the web. man this guy
must have really done something awful for you to blast him without first
checking out what he is saying.
SamL99 wrote:
>> anybody seen this site?
>> http://www.serve.com/licorice/gumdisease.
Gregg wrote:
>Am I the the only one who can tell that this is spam? >Captain Dave
Williams is trying to push his licorice >under a new handle. If you
doubt that he is spamming >then consider some of his other sales pitches
are >that licorice stops smoking, cures hepatitis, cures >crohnes
disease, and enhances the taste of beer.<
Gosh..it just gets better and better..don't it folks!!???????
ROFLMAO at dave's pitiful attempts to move that thar LICORICE!!
Shan :-)
Sully&Lynn
this thread already! Can you send it to me? I know you are a valuable
person when it comes to sharing your info. with us. I`d appreciate it a
lot...TIA<LYNN
Summer Breeze
idea how badly
we could've hurt ourselves involving ourselves with that licorice.
Thanks for the tremendous amount of work. It is greatly appreciately by
all.
Cheers, Summer
kot...@webtv.net
gentle hugs,
kim
TCrab13
>From: aval...@webtv.net (Shan Leslie)
>Alot of questions, flame wars and hostilies, have erupted on this news
>group over the last 6 - 9 months due to the struggles of a small core
>group of 'old timers' against the slick scam artists, bunko tricks and
>spam spreading maggots targeting AMF among other news groups for
>financial gain.
>A few people will support and defend the hucksters who try to prevail
>here..
>Others want all the flaming to stop and don't care who is involved.
Shan,
Applaud, applaud, BRAVO BRAVO......You should even take a standing ovation.
This was a great post and I know a lot of work went into it.
Wish I would have had the smarts to do it myself!!!! You are to be commended
on the wonderful research that you did!!!!! I'm glad to be part of your
FMily......
Hey, go ahead and have several lattes!!! They are on the house!!!!
Great job!!!
Teresa
fmc...@my-dejanews.com
aval...@webtv.net (Shan Leslie) wrote:
>
> SamL99 posted in defence of Capt David Williams here..and IS'NT it
> INTERESTING he's been caught doing the same thing over at CFS..!!
>
> Jeez..will the REAL capt Dave ( alias
> 1) Jeans Sanford
> 2) dad2jane
> 3) David L. Smith-SamL.99..) ..PUL-EEEEZE stand up!! LOL!!!!
>
> more headers
> =A0author=A0profile
> view=A0thread
> never tried before"
>
> Mae West
> Click here for Troll/Spam tension release
> http://members.tripod.com/~webtv6/scream.wav
>
>
<<<man this guy must have really done something awful for you to blast him
without first checking out what he is saying.>>>
I think that about says it all!! "This guy must have really done something
awful..."--fran
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
d...@netradiomail.com
> BTW...IS THIS 'OUR' DAVE THE FLIM FLAM MAN...????
No.
> Snip...<<<Recently we've seen a proliferation of slick, four-color
> mini-magazines extolling various individuals as health gurus. "Dr. David
> Williams"...
I looked into this before Shan the oldtimer was here, Dr. David Williams
isn't David Williams of licorice fame unless he can be in two places at once.
The responsible thing for Shan to do now is admit her error and apologize,
but I won't hold my breath. The mob rule Shan has tried so hard to institute
here has now become lynch mob rule, so I don't expect sanity to prevail.
David Williams isn't an uncommon name, so making a public post alleging
that two of them are the same person without any further evidence beyond
the name is irresponsible, even by Shan's standard. The name Dr. David
Williams isn't that uncommon either, it's also the name of one of the
space shuttle astronauts. On the same evidential base and reasoning power
Shan has just used I could equally make the case that:
a) One of the astronauts also scams the sick, and/or
b) There's a licorice salesman in space
Neither of which are likely to be any more factual than Shan's defective work.
> "When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
> never tried before"
Well, trying to out someone on the flimsiest of evidence is an evil
that you probably shouldn't choose again. -g
Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime
kean
poster?
Maureen in Mukilteo
>I looked into this before Shan the oldtimer was here, Dr. David
Williams
>isn't David Williams of licorice fame unless he can be in two places at
once.
>The responsible thing for Shan to do now is admit her error and
apologize,
>but I won't hold my breath. The mob rule Shan has tried so hard to
institute
>here has now become lynch mob rule, so I don't expect sanity to
prevail.
>
>David Williams isn't an uncommon name, so making a public post alleging
>that two of them are the same person without any further evidence
beyond
>the name is irresponsible, even by Shan's standard. The name Dr. David
>Williams isn't that uncommon either, it's also the name of one of the
>space shuttle astronauts. On the same evidential base and reasoning
power
>Shan has just used I could equally make the case that:
>a) One of the astronauts also scams the sick, and/or
>b) There's a licorice salesman in space
>Neither of which are likely to be any more factual than Shan's
defective work.
>
>> "When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
>> never tried before"
>
Jo
Does the name Gary O ring a bell
Jo
Mishu Reza wrote in message <725s4k$d1g$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net>...
>
>kean <ke...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:7257ls$m...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com...
>>Who is "g" or d...@netradiomail.com ? Can anyone put a name to this
>>poster?
>>
>>Maureen in Mukilteo
>
>Maureen--he's that "love, light, laughter" guy who has a "personal problem"
>with Shan. I guess he doesn't want to be known by a name...kind of like
>that 'formerly known as Prince' fella, eh? For the life of me I can't
>figure it out--she posts, he goes ballistic. Maybe he asked her out in
>Junior High and she turned him down, and he's still holding the grudge.
Who
>knows???? You could advocate eating blended frogs or practicing satanism,
>he won't say a word. She says the sky is blue, he is on her like a cheap
>suit saying that she is misrepresenting the sky. Strange are the ways of
>this world. Cheers, M.
>
>
>
Angloanne
d...@netradiomail.com wrote in message <7254i2$r24$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
>I looked into this before Shan the oldtimer was here, Dr. David Williams
>isn't David Williams of licorice fame unless he can be in two places at
once.
>The responsible thing for Shan to do now is admit her error and apologize,
>but I won't hold my breath. The mob rule Shan has tried so hard to
institute
>here has now become lynch mob rule, so I don't expect sanity to prevail.
You are basing this hypothesis on what ???
>
>David Williams isn't an uncommon name, so making a public post alleging
>that two of them are the same person without any further evidence beyond
>the name is irresponsible, even by Shan's standard. The name Dr. David
>Williams isn't that uncommon either, it's also the name of one of the
>space shuttle astronauts. On the same evidential base and reasoning power
>Shan has just used I could equally make the case that:
>a) One of the astronauts also scams the sick, and/or
>b) There's a licorice salesman in space
>Neither of which are likely to be any more factual than Shan's defective
work.
Ah but, have YOU been to Deja News and done a search on this man/yourself
? - if you had, you would know that everything that Shan says is from
knowledge gained on Deja News - are you saying that THEY are wrong also ?
>
>> "When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
>> never tried before"
>
>Well, trying to out someone on the flimsiest of evidence is an evil
>that you probably shouldn't choose again. -g
I think that Shan has a lot more than flimsy evidence and as for your, Love,
Light Laughter sig - isn't it a bit hypocritical after posting this
nonsense?
Anne (UK)
>
MAWired
>that two of them are the same person without any further evidence beyond
>the name is irresponsible
Not when you trace the web servers back to the same locale... Dave Williams aka
Licorice Boy has more than web site that all point back to him--but you have to
dig hard to find it. Hell, he even misspells the same words consistently in his
endeavors. Gotta at least give him credit for consistency.
Thumper... Oh Majestic Goddess of the Martial Arts
http://pages.prodigy.com/thumpersworld/fibrom.htm - FMS page
http://members.aol.com/fibrodo - The Way Of The Fog
Grow your own dope... plant a man
Debihoover
WAY TO GO SHAN!!!!!!!
Rah! Rah!! If I could do cartwheels, I shure would!! You go girl!! :-)
thank you soo much for the time and effort that you put forth to ferret out the
info and time nneede to put this all together!! I for one appreciate it veryy
very much!!! I truly do appreciate and admire that fact that you won't stand
still for deception and dishonesty being force fed down unsuspecting folks
throats!! I;m right beside ya, kiddo!! I got your back, if you need it!!!
:-)
p.s. I shore hope i don't ever end up on top of your sh*t list!! hehjeheh you
truly did a marvelous job at puting all the pieces together for us!
God Bless! Debbie Hoover
http://members.tripod.com/~dbhoover/index.html
Katroberts
two of them are the same person without any further evidence beyond the name is
irresponsible>>
>Not when you trace the web servers back to the same locale... Dave Williams
aka Licorice Boy has more than web site that all point back to him--but you
have to dig hard to find it. Hell, he even misspells the same words
consistently in his endeavors. Gotta at least give him credit for consistency.
>
And also NOT when he uses a different alias then "signs" it Dave. A big DUH
there, hmm?
d...@netradiomail.com
> Who is "g" or d...@netradiomail.com ? Can anyone put a name to this
> poster?
Gary Osbourne. I've posted here for a couple of years. I once asked
you if you had ever filed a complaint with Dr. Hitzig's license board
or whether you had undertaken court action against him. I don't recall
you answering the post. Take good care. -g
d...@netradiomail.com
> Not when you trace the web servers back to the same locale... Dave Williams aka
> Licorice Boy has more than web site that all point back to him--but you have to
> dig hard to find it. Hell, he even misspells the same words consistently in his
> endeavors. Gotta at least give him credit for consistency.
I haven't seen any evidence that David Williams web servers have any
relationship to David L. Smith's web servers. Shan certainly didn't provide
any such evidence. It appears to me that Smith and Sanford are from Michael
Baugh's area. Unless David Williams travels a few hundred miles to post under
another name, I don't think they're the same people. I'm still checking into
it. But my post wasn't about the Smilth/Sanford/Williams angle, it was about
the Williams/Dr. Williams angle. I'm saying they're not the same person. Take
d...@netradiomail.com
> You are basing this hypothesis on what ???
I'm not making an hypothesis. Shan did. For the record, Shan alleged that
David Williams was David L. Smith and Jean Sanford. Shan based her hypothesis
on the fact that a Jean Sanford post was signed with the name David (there
were actually two Sanford posts signed that way). Apart from the fact that
the name David was common to Williams and Smith and that both posted here,
Shan gave no further evidence to support her hypothesis. Using that criteria,
I'm surprised no-one has accused David Williams of being Dr. David Nye.
> Ah but, have YOU been to Deja News and done a search on this man/yourself
Yes, A number of times over the last couple of years. I used to post here
about how to use Deja News to expose spammers. I can't say Shan was a
star pupil. In fact Shan's spamfighting abilities are a recent affectation,
she once flamed me here for exposing some mlm magnet salespeople.
> ? - if you had, you would know that everything that Shan says is from
> knowledge gained on Deja News - are you saying that THEY are wrong also ?
Shan has taken information from Deja News and misinterpreted it. Using Deja
News alone sometimes isn't sufficient, particularily if you are going to jump
to unwarranted conclusions. David Williams and David Smith are posting from
different computers, different software, and different areas. That seems like
a lot of work to go through to mask one's identity. I don't know whether the
tools to find this out are available on WebTV, but even a content analysis of
their posts and websites also points strongly to them being different
individuals. I'm saying Shan made a mistake. You can accept her hypothesis
and continue this thread (though you might want to rename it 'Those short of
critical thinking skills line up here') or you can reject it.
> as for your, Love, Light Laughter sig - isn't it a bit hypocritical after
> posting this nonsense?
No. -g
d...@netradiomail.com
saying that Michael Baugh is David Smith. Michael is who and where
he says he is (you're not that well hidden Michael). Take good care. -g
Shan Leslie
who is at the top..!!
shan :-)
"When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
never tried before"
Shan Leslie
ROFLMAO!!! Thanks MISH!! I needed that!
Shan :-)
<<Maureen in Mukilteo>>
>Maureen--he's that "love, light, laughter" guy who has a "personal
problem" with Shan. I guess he doesn't want to be known by a name...kind
of like that 'formerly known as Prince' fella, eh? For the life of me I
can't figure it out--she posts, he goes ballistic. Maybe he asked her
out in Junior High and she turned him down, and he's still holding the
grudge. Who knows???? You could advocate eating blended frogs or
practicing satanism, he won't say a word. She says the sky is blue, he
is on her like a cheap suit saying that she is misrepresenting the sky.
Strange are the ways of this world. Cheers, M.>>
"When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
Shan Leslie
Gary Osborn in the flesh...making his snide and condesending remarks to
me as usual..
:-)
<<Who is "g" or d...@netradiomail.com ? Can anyone put a name to this
poster?
Maureen in Mukilteo>>
kean
<I once asked you if you had ever filed a complaint with Dr. Hitzig's
license board or whether you had undertaken court action against him. I
don't recall you answering the post.>
Well then I'll answer now. In a word: no. My health does not allow it. I
should file a complaint- I'll have to see what are the time limits.
(This happened in May of 1996.) My understanding is that there are quite
a few complaints against him so I'm not too sure what good one more
would do. I know some government agency raided his office last year.
Unfortunately Dr. Hitzig is back posting to newsgroups again. He has a
new plan he is hawking. And I imagine he will continue peddling his
"cure" until he kills someone. If you hear from this guy (he used to
copy names from ngs and then contact the people by e-mail offering his
program) runs for the hills! He is a con artist. He doesn't know what he
is doing. I bet he doesn't tell his new patients that one of the old
ones developed PPH. (Also do not believe his money back if it doesn't
help spiel. He won't follow through on that either.)
I notice he has cancelled a lot of his posts from dejanews. Trying to
get rid of the evidence.
Phentermine is the "safer" half of the phen/fen combo- the part still
available. Alone is has been shown to increase the risk of developing
PPH (primary pulmonary hypertension). PWFM are already at greater risk
of getting this disease so I wouldn't recommend that anyone with FM use
phentermine.
Saturday I was at my PPH support meeting. Out of 12 patients present, 4
of us had FMS in addition to the PH. (and I know another woman with both
who was not there) These support meetings started about 18 months ago
and since then 4 of women in the original group have died, one (with FM)
has started to go downhill and the rest of us (3) are fine. It's kinda
depressing.
To summarize <eg>:
--If you hear from Dr. Hitzig make a cross with your fingers to ward him
off and then run for the hills. Garlic is optional.
--Do not take phentermine.
--Since anyone with FMS can get PPH- watch for the symptoms: shortness
of breath, dry cough, chest pain, heart palpitations, fainting, and
edema in the legs and feet. The veins in you neck can bulge. The sooner
treatment is started, the longer you will live. Untreated PPH patients
live an average of 3 years.
--If you took phen/fen for over 3 months and if you have any of the
above symptoms, have an echocardiogram. This will show any heart valve
problems and if the technician has the experience (take note of the
"if"- not all have the special training to do this) they can also
measure pulmonary pressure. However the only accurate measure of PP is a
heart cath.
This public service announcement has been brought to you by your local
PPH expert
Maureen in Mukilteo (by the sea)
ACOFTIL
>"Angloanne" <an...@hailwood.prestel.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> You are basing this hypothesis on what ???
>
>I'm not making an hypothesis. Shan did. For the record, Shan alleged that
>David Williams was David L. Smith and Jean Sanford. Shan based her hypothesis
>on the fact that a Jean Sanford post was signed with the name David (there
>were actually two Sanford posts signed that way). Apart from the fact that
>the name David was common to Williams and Smith and that both posted here,
>Shan gave no further evidence to support her hypothesis. Using that criteria,
>I'm surprised no-one has accused David Williams of being Dr. David Nye.
I was thinking the same thing. Dr. Nye and Michael Bough have the
same "attitude" when posting and Dave Williams has the same arrogance.
>
>> ? - if you had, you would know that everything that Shan says is from
>> knowledge gained on Deja News - are you saying that THEY are wrong also ?
>
>Shan has taken information from Deja News and misinterpreted it. Using Deja
>News alone sometimes isn't sufficient, particularily if you are going to jump
>to unwarranted conclusions. David Williams and David Smith are posting from
>different computers, different software, and different areas. That seems like
>a lot of work to go through to mask one's identity. I don't know whether the
>tools to find this out are available on WebTV, but even a content analysis of
>their posts and websites also points strongly to them being different
>individuals. I'm saying Shan made a mistake.
This is MY point about all this--misidentification could lead to
disaster--suicide even. Jo's post on her trouble with her ISP (she
didn't know it was the ISP and thought others were doing it too her)
shows just how a misunderstanding could lead to disaster. Please,
before you accuse someone publicly, be certain of your facts. That is
MY concern. Then kill all the spammers and trolls you can--just be
certain you aren't hurting anyone innocent.
Nancy in CA
All thoughts posted here, unless otherwise cited, are my opinion based on my research
and my experience. Everyone should do their own research and make their own choices
based on their situation.
Please visit the new fms-guaifenisin support group at alt.med.fibromyalgia.guaifenisin
To respond via email, delete "nospam" from my addy.
Jo
Yes, Gary you would know about that after what you pulled the last time.
Wouldnt you.
The light part of his sig probably means that he is the almighty and has all
wisdom, if you ever read any of his posts then you would see that is what it
probably means, and the laughter part is he sits there and laughs at the
trouble he causes here.
Jo
And get that right Gary if you want to come after anyone because of this
post yes it is Jo and she is back.
David Williams and David Smith are posting from
>different computers, different software, and different areas. That seems
like
>a lot of work to go through to mask one's identity. I don't know whether
the
>tools to find this out are available on WebTV, but even a content analysis
of
>their posts and websites also points strongly to them being different
>individuals. I'm saying Shan made a mistake.
>> as for your, Love, Light Laughter sig - isn't it a bit hypocritical after
>> posting this nonsense?
>
>No. -g
Shan Leslie
servers have any relationship to David L. Smith's web servers. Shan
certainly didn't provide any such evidence.>>
You're so full of shit gary. Better learn how to read.
<< It appears to me that Smith and Sanford are from Michael Baugh's
area. Unless David Williams travels a few hundred miles to post under
another name, I don't think they're the same people. I'm still checking
into it. But my post wasn't about the Smilth/Sanford/Williams angle,>>
No, you're posts are always mud slinging contests directed at me..
<< it was about the Williams/Dr. Williams angle. I'm saying they're not
the same person.>>
I NEVER said they were...again..LEARN how to READ..
I asked IF he were one and the same...
<< Take good care. -g>>
I always HAVE!! No thanks to scum like you.........
Shan
Shan Leslie
available on WebTV, but even a content analysis of their posts and
websites also points strongly to them being different individuals. I'm
saying Shan made a mistake. >>
Then Nancy chimes in..<<<This is MY point about all
this--misidentification could lead to disaster--suicide even.>>
And THATS exactly why I pasted all information to the group. It's not MY
words but hard facts of who is posting..why don't YOU take a hike over
to Deju news and run down this stuff before you start siding with jerks
like gary who'es only purpose in life is to cause controvercY???
< Jo's post on her trouble with her ISP (she didn't know it was the ISP
and thought others were doing it too her) shows just how a
misunderstanding could lead to disaster.>>
This NO misynderstanding!! Read the post again..
<< Please, before you accuse someone publicly, be certain of your
facts.>>
Are you??
<< That is MY concern. Then kill all the spammers and trolls you can-->>
Doing JUST that!!
<<just be certain you aren't hurting anyone innocent.
Nancy in CA>>
Take your own advice..
Shan :-)
Shan Leslie
like a lot of work to go through to mask one's identity.>>
So what?? Capt dave's web page.. concerning ocean cruises & marine stuff
through his Moby Dick SEAQUAKE society, has A Hawaii addy but orginates
over here in Floria...so get real!
Of course the guy changes his addy's..he gets kicked off so many news
groups he has to try and sneak back in just to sell his crap.
The Jean L. Sandford post to this group was dave williamns..LEARN TO
READ GARY..READ READ READ!!!!!!!!
He signed his Jean L. Snadford posts witha Dad2jane..and David L.
Smith..on other posts to different new groups..READ READ READ...or do
you know how...???
So try to get a life will ya..??
Shan
who is tired of this idiot alway harping and bitchin and flaming
me...but is ALWAYS ready to prove what a moron he is..
Shan Leslie
Ann replied back..<<<Shan, I have followed your posts recently and have
seen you use name calling and profanity time and again. Those on this ng
that call for a kinder gentler ng seem to accept this from you. >>
You know something? If I use profanity here people know exactly where
I'm coming from. I'm not like some of the rest of you ( and you know WHO
you are) who use condesending tones and lectures and inuendo to feel
superior.
Where was your indignation when gary was belittling and slamming people
not too long ago. OH... FORGOT!! Since he didn't use the 'F' word or the
'S' word..it's perfectly alright with you if he abuses people.
And where was your indignation when dave williams WAS calling people on
this news group names..huh???
It seems apparent to me and many others that it name calling and ng
bashing is 'OK' with you...as long as it's not one of the great so
called unwashed & seemly unlettered people , like myself, but if the
person uttering the abuse or name calling SAYS their doing IT in the
name of 'RESEARCH' you remain conspiciously quite.
<.The immunity the ng gives you is interesting and not unexpected. But I
find your foul mouth distasteful and wonder why you find it necessary.>
Well..apparently alot of people feel the same as I do about weirdos and
jerks bashing and trying to screw this ng..
<< There seems to be much concern for what newbies think when they read
posts here. One can only imagine when they read the vile stuff that
spews forth from you. Is there any reason anyone here can think of for
saying someone is full of shit?>
Yep! Especially when all they live to do is harass me...
<I find it repulsive, as I did your suggestion that someone put their
genitals in a blender.>
Well hey...don't read my posts if it upsets you THAT much...
<<<< Take good care. -g>>
<<I always HAVE!! No thanks to scum like you.........>>
<<Gary was responding to your post accusing Dave Williams of taking on
another identity.>>
Yes he was. Without quoting what I said. He objected to me posting about
Dr. David Williams..and said I said 'he' was the same as capt dave..
He is full of it..because I asked the question: "Are they one and the
same??"
If it walks ,talks and squawks like a duck..COULD it be the SAME duck??
< You recieved many many positive strokes from people here for doing
this. Now you deny doing so and end up calling Gary scum for doing the
work he did to find that these people *were not* the same person. >>
No I did not! He implied they were NOT..with NO evidence!! He simply
wanted to blast me..
I posted all eveidence of dave williams AKA..Jean L. Sanford..dad2jane
and david L, Smith SHOWING they all were coming from dave
williams...pretty hard to argue with the man using 2 different Email
addys in ONE post..wouldn't you say????
Maybe YOU need to go back and re read my original post before you start
slamming me..
<I fail to see why you need to use this language.>
I fail to see why you ALWAYS side with people like gary or dave or
others who love to beat this group up whenever they feel the urge...
<<It's clear that you were confused and assumed a person signing "David"
and selling something was going to be David Williams. It's clear you
were wrong.>>
Clear?? What?? Confused..HA! It's clear to me..just want is the MOST
important to you on this group and it's NOT the group as a whole but
certain individuals. Oh sure, you can sit and bemoan and wring your
hands at me if I say something you don't like..but you clamp your
educated mouth shut..when your research buddies get down and dirty.
<< The amt of time people spend on David borders on the obsessive.>>
Apparently you don't read ALL the ng..
<< The morbid fascination with him is getting tiresome and dreary. If I
were newly diagnosed with FM I would want to find a ng with people
obsessing over current research and the wrongs committed by the med
profession,>>
Well..why aren't you?? Why are you HERE? If we're such a pack of
uneducated know nothings..why do you and others like you keep showing up
here..???
< not a bunch of "me too'ers" slinging mud and proud of it. David is
gone.>
Yeah..but he'll be BACK!
< His work and research is on his web page. If people want that, they
can find it. It's time to call it quits with the namecalling and outing
of him. For those who don't find the idea of licorice appalling, they
might be interested to know you can read about the use of licorice and
CFS in a book by an MD. He claims to successfully reverse CFS with
licorice. I saw the book at Borders, but don't have the title or author
with me. It's a 1998 pub date with CFS in the title. I'll try and find
the specific reference again.>>
We all know we can do a search on licorice root..
<<I NEVER said they were...
<<That wasn't obvious from your post.>>
Yes it most certainly was. You are taking it OUT of context. I was
speaking of Dr. David Williams and Capt Dave..asking (ONE MORE
TIME).."are they one and the same"'
<<Most here were thanking you for doing just that. You could have
corrected this before if you didn't really say so.>>
Everyones welcome to re=read my orginal EGG SUCKING post..and see I did
exactly as I said I did..
<<again..LEARN how to READ..
I asked IF he were one and the same..>>
Looks like the answer is no.
Ann
remove spamx to reply>>
Apparently NOT! Who knows?? I was simply raising that question...
maybe you should climb down off your high horse and read it again..
Shan
Shan Leslie
Firstly I would like to say quickly that all charlatans should be
exposed for what they are by people who know. As you say you won't
always win any popularity contests for doing this but nevertheless it is
still the right thing to do. So many people can be damaged or worse,
that it is morally wrong to sit back and do nothing when you see a
potential danger to others.
Once warned as you say people are free to do as they please but at
least they have more information to make that decision from. Anyway my
motives here are not purely unselfish. I wonder if you could tell me
more about this osteochondrosis, or where I could find out more. I have
a niece who is 12 and suffering greatly with her knee. Sounds much like
what you mentioned and I'd like to research it a bit for her. I will be
steering clear of Capt/Dr. Dave.
Does it have anything to do with inflammation in the tissue behind the
kneecap?
Thanks
take care
Moira
--
~ ~ I> may you sail on \ I /
~ / | \ calm waters and O
_ /_ I__\ _never lose sight of / I \
\_______/ your goals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>
Thanks Moria! Heres the info you asked for. Hope this helps your niece!!
Shan :-)
<<OSGOOD-SCHLATTER DISEASE(Osteochondrosis)
OSGOOD-SCHLATTER DISEASE
(Osteochondrosis)
GENERAL INFORMATION
DESCRIPTION
Osgood-Schlatter disease is a temporary condition of the leg at the
knee, characterized by swelling, tenderness, and pain. The tibial
tubercle, a prominence just below the knee cap attached to a large thigh
muscle connecting the bone of the upper leg (femur) to the large bone in
the lower leg (tibia), is involved. This disorder often affects both
knees. Osgood-Schlatter disease is most likely to affect adolescents. It
is uncommon after age 16.
Appropriate health care includes:
Physician's monitoring of general condition and medications.
Self-care after diagnosis.
SIGNS & SYMPTOMS
A slightly swollen, warm and tender bump below the child's knee.
Pain with activity, especially straightening the leg against force, as
in stair-climbing, jumping, or weight-lifting.
CAUSES
Stress or injury of the tibial tubercle, which is still developing
during adolescence. Repeated stress or injury interferes with
development, causing inflammation.
RISK FACTORS
Overzealous conditioning routines, such as running, jumping, or jogging.
Being overweight.
PREVENTING COMPLICATIONS OR RECURRENCE
Help an overweight child lose weight. A reducing diet appears in
Appendix 31.
Encourage your child to exercise moderately, avoiding extremes.
BASIC INFORMATION
MEDICAL TESTS
Your own observation of symptoms.
Medical history and physical exam by a doctor.
X-ray of the knee.
POSSIBLE COMPLICATIONS
Bone infection.
Recurrence of the condition in adulthood.
PROBABLE OUTCOME
Usually curable with treatment in 4 to 8 months.
TREATMENT
HOME CARE
Use heat to relieve your child's pain. Warm compresses, heating pads,
warm whirlpool baths, heat lamps, diathermy, or ultrasound are
effective.
MEDICATION
For minor discomfort, use non-prescription drugs such as aspirin.
Your doctor may prescribe cortisone injections if other treatment fails.
Cortisone injections may weaken your child's tendons, so it is better to
give the condition more time to heal than to use them.
See Medications section for information regarding medicines your doctor
may prescribe.
ACTIVITY
Resting the child's affected leg is the most important treatment. This
is done with:
Crutches.
A leg cast or splint.
An elastic knee brace that prevents the child's knee from bending fully.
The child should not participate in sports during treatment. This is
temporary, and normal activity can be resumed when inflammation
subsides.
DIET & FLUIDS
No special diet, unless the child is overweight. See Appendix 31 for a
reducing diet.
OK TO GO TO SCHOOL?
Yes, when strength and feeling of well-being will allow.
CALL YOUR DOCTOR IF
Your child has symptoms of Osgood-Schlatter disease.
The following occurs during treatment: -- Symptoms don't improve in 4
weeks, despite treatment. -- Pain increases. -- Temperature rises to
101F (38.3C).
From the Complete Guide to Pediatric Symptoms, Illness & Medications by
H. Winter Griffith, M.D. © 1989 The Putnam Berkley Group, Inc.;
electronic rights by Medical Data Exchange
The user may download copyrighted material for personal use only. Except
as otherwise expressly permitted under the copyright law, no copying,
redistribution, retransmission, publication, or commercial exploitation
of downloaded material will be permitted without the express permission
of Medical Data Exchange and the copyright owner. >>
d...@netradiomail.com
> Then kill all the spammers and trolls you can--just be
> certain you aren't hurting anyone innocent.
David L. Smith has now lost his Dad2...@juno.com account.
Chalk one up for the little people :) His new address is
Dad2...@yahoo.com which I don't think he's used publicly yet.
It is however already on a spammer maillist, so what goes
around comes around.
If you see any spam from this guy forward it to
abuse @ yahoo.com . Jean Sanford also has an aol address
she doesn't seem to have used publicly yet of jsanf###@aol.com.
I've forgotten the numbers but it is unlikely someone else
matching that description will spam, and in either case forward
it to abuse @ aol.com . Smith and Sanford have a company called
Jedaka Marketing (there's no record of it being incorporated).
They sell Image Plus mlm, amongst others. Take good care. -g
d...@netradiomail.com
> Yes, Gary you would know about that after what you pulled the last time.
> Wouldnt you.
> The light part of his sig probably means that he is the almighty and has all
> wisdom, if you ever read any of his posts then you would see that is what it
> probably means, and the laughter part is he sits there and laughs at the
> trouble he causes here.
> post yes it is Jo and she is back.
I haven't the fibrofoggiest notion what you are talking about.
Please be a bit more specific, privately or publicly or both
and I will attempt to respond. Take good care. -g
ABrad94101
<<You're so full of shit gary. Better learn how to read.>>
Shan, I have followed your posts recently and have seen you use name calling
and profanity time and again. Those on this ng that call for a kinder gentler
ng seem to accept this from you. The immunity the ng gives you is interesting
and not unexpected. But I find your foul mouth distasteful and wonder why you
find it necessary. There seems to be much concern for what newbies think when
they read posts here. One can only imagine when they read the vile stuff that
spews forth from you. Is there any reason anyone here can think of for saying
someone is full of shit? I find it repulsive, as I did your suggestion that
someone put their genitals in a blender.
<<<< Take good care. -g>>
<<I always HAVE!! No thanks to scum like you.........>>
Gary was responding to your post accusing Dave Williams of taking on another
identity. You recieved many many positive strokes from people here for doing
this. Now you deny doing so and end up calling Gary scum for doing the work he
did to find that these people *were not* the same person. I fail to see why you
need to use this language.
It's clear that you were confused and assumed a person signing "David" and
selling something was going to be David Williams. It's clear you were wrong.
The amt of time people spend on David borders on the obsessive. The morbid
fascination with him is getting tiresome and dreary. If I were newly diagnosed
with FM I would want to find a ng with people obsessing over current research
and the wrongs committed by the med profession, not a bunch of "me too'ers"
slinging mud and proud of it.
David is gone. His work and research is on his web page. If people want that,
they can find it. It's time to call it quits with the namecalling and outing of
him. For those who don't find the idea of licorice appalling, they might be
interested to know you can read about the use of licorice and CFS in a book by
an MD. He claims to successfully reverse CFS with licorice. I saw the book at
Borders, but don't have the title or author with me. It's a 1998 pub date with
CFS in the title. I'll try and find the specific reference again.
<<I NEVER said they were...
That wasn't obvious from your post. Most here were thanking you for doing just
that. You could have corrected this before if you didn't really say so.
<<again..LEARN how to READ..
moira
Although I am very sorry to see you go I do understand the need to take a
break from all the fighting. You will be greatly missed by many and I hope
after a rest you will feel able to come back. You are one of the backbones
of this Ng. Don't let the B******** grind you down.
take care
Moira
--
~ ~ I> may you sail on \ I /
~ / | \ calm waters and O
_ /_ I__\ _never lose sight of / I \
\_______/ your goals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
moira
Firstly I would like to say quickly that all charlatans should be exposed
for what they are by people who know. As you say you won't always win any
popularity contests for doing this but nevertheless it is still the right
thing to do. So many people can be damaged or worse, that it is morally
wrong to sit back and do nothing when you see a potential danger to others.
Once warned as you say people are free to do as they please but at least
they have more information to make that decision from.
Anyway my motives here are not purely unselfish. I wonder if you could
tell me more about this osteochondrosis, or where I could find out more. I
have a niece who is 12 and suffering greatly with her knee. Sounds much
like what you mentioned and I'd like to research it a bit for her. I will
be steering clear of Capt/Dr. Dave.
Does it have anything to do with inflammation in the tissue behind the
kneecap?
Thanks
Moira
--
~ ~ I> may you sail on \ I /
~ / | \ calm waters and O
_ /_ I__\ _never lose sight of / I \
\_______/ your goals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shan Leslie <aval...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<18371-36...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Alot of questions, flame wars and hostilies, have erupted on this news
group over the last 6 - 9 months due to the struggles of a small core
group of 'old timers' against the slick scam artists, bunko tricks and
spam spreading maggots targeting AMF among other news groups for
financial gain.
A few people will support and defend the hucksters who try to prevail
here..
Others want all the flaming to stop and don't care who is involved. They
just want to stick their heads in the sand and let the storm roll by.
And then there are the scammers who will in turn attack and abuse the
very people who are trying to expose their lies and hypocrisy here and
try to get the news group to believe that they are 'control freaks' who
wish to run this news group.
Let me tell you all something....I have NO wish to control or run
ANYTHING..except my own life. But I get sick and tired of seeing people
defending these bunko artists and con- men/women who try to suck the
life out of this group. I'm tired of getting flamed by the weirdos and
freaks who abuse this ng in the name of insanity and deviousness to turn
a buck!
Therefore..I spent alot of time and effort to show this news group just
a little bit about ONE of these scammers who continually surfaces
here..to sell- berate and abuse.
I asked myself if this was worth the time I spend digging up this
information. I wondered if ANYBODY would even care, with the exception
of a small loyal group, who I know do care what happens here. Am I
wasting my time posting this here..? I don't know.
What I do know is this is soild evidence that this man 'appears' to be
making a living off alot of sick people in various health related ways.
I'm talking about Capt. David 'Licorice' Williams, the flim flam man.
This guy surfaces here on a regular basis to hawk his wares. What is
note worthy to me..is he leaves a pretty interesting and revealing trail
throughout cyberspace, as he wends his way peddling his snake oil
remedies , on web pages or directly to health related news groups just
like ours.
I also noticed David Williams is adept at changing the presentation
depending on who is audience is....but trys to cleverly hide his real
name under assorted alias'es and mailing addresses.
He also promotes
NET WORK MARKETING...
no big SURPRISE!
snip..<<Spare-Time MLM but Full-Time INCOME! more options
Author: Jean L.
SanfordEmail:js...@worldnet.att.netDate:1998/05/15Forums:alt.business.multi-
level.exceltel
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CONFESSIONS of aNetwork Marketing
Millionaire
Dale Calvert - The Millionaire -
and a 15 yr MLM Veteran, writes:
How would YOU like to develop a network marketing organization of 61,307
distributors and over 80 Million $$$ in sales?? YOU CAN !!>>snip
Well well..so much for his altruistic claims!!
If you notice the addy ABOVE & BELOW you'll see he used the same one
when he posted here a short time back as 'Jean Sanford' but forgot and
signed it 'david'.
snip..<<Jean L.
SanfordEmail:js...@worldnet.att.net:1998/01/24Forums:alt.med.fibromyalgia
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Over the past few months, I have corresponded with quite a few of you
via
e-mail regarding Fibromyalgia. Many of you have requested information
about the friends I have that have Fibromyalgia. Some of you have even
sent me your regular mail (snail mail) address so that I could send you
information.
For those of you that haven't written...let me update you. I have 5
friends that have Fibromyalgia. It is through these friends that I found
out about Fibromyalgia. It is through a network of support groups and
word-of-mouth that we all found out about herbal supplements that were
helping people with Fibromyalgia. As a matter of fact, my friends are
now symptom-free from the pain of Fibromyalgia; except for one - she
started in November, 1997 and is well on her way to wholeness again. I
was so excited about the results that my friends were having, that I
thought I should tell others about it! So I tried to...again and again
.. But after a few months, I came to the conclusion that a lot of the
people who frequent these bulletin boards really DO NOT want help. They
really DO NOT care to find out about what is helping other people. All
they want to do is bitch and complain and MOAN about how hard life is.
They want to talk about how no one cares and how much they hurt. People
want to get sympathy, NOT HELP.
Well... I don't have the time, nor the energy to try and help people
that really would rather bitch and complain about what life has dealt
them. You DO NOT WANT help! DO NOT E-MAIL ME if you just want to use my
time and use me or other people. I'm tired of people who just want to
sit back and have people feel sorry for them. I DO NOT feel sorry for
ANYONE that will not help themselves FIRST! For those of you who really
do want help, my advise is to try support groups in your local area. The
people on this board just want to bitch and complain. Please don't let
them lead you on and think that they care about helping you. Because
they just want people to complain to. Sorry for the long post ... I'm
outta here..... David>>
( Yeah Right!! LOL!!)
Dave Williams uses the alias ' David L. Smith' to peddle weight loss:
snip,,<<HOLIDAY WEIGHT GAIN? LOSE IT!!!!!!!! more options
Author: David L.
SmithEmail:Dad2...@juno.comDate:1997/12/31Forums:nc.charlotte.forsale,
misc.forsale more headers
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David L. Smith posted the following article in the For Sale Forum
http://www.he.net/~brumley/boards/forsaleboard.html Dated : December 31,
1997 at 19:42:51
Subject: HOLIDAY WEIGHT GAIN? LOSE IT!!!!!!!!
http://www.he.net/~brumley/boards/forsalemessages/2972.html E-MAIL FOR
INFO ON WEIGHTLOSS! All-natural. Many health benefits +
weight-loss!>>snip
How do I know it's David...???
Please check the following addys on this next one..and compare both
emails..
snip,,<<Herbal Alternative - Safe, Proven, & Effective against
ARTHRITIS more
options
Author: Jean L.
SanfordEmail:js...@worldnet.att.netDate:1997/11/30Forums:misc.health.arthrit
is
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I recently talked to yet another person who has had tremendous relief
from Arthritis by taking herbal supplements. I have been taking the same
thing for almost a year now.
Here is my story. I have a hair-line crack in my left knee due to
Osgood-Slater's disease, developed when I was 13 or 14 yrs. old. The
knee surgeons could promise no relief. For years, I lived with the pain.
When I turned 30, there would be days when I was taking 8-10 extra
strength Tylenol trying to dull the pain. But the pain NEVER went away!
In January, 1997 I was introduced to a herbal supplement. By this time,
the extra strength Tylenol had stopped working - even when I took up to
12 in one day! After 2 weeks f taking the supplement - the pain that I
had endured for more than 20 years HAD DISAPPEARED! Did I become a
believer? Of course! Was my case an isolated incident? Since January, I
have talked to more than 37 people who have had the same - or better -
results! It works!
Because it worked so well for me, I'll share it with you!
Just e-mail me at Dad2...@juno.com>>
He is David L. Smith, Jean L Sanford and Dad2...@juno.com...all rolled
into one snake oil salsman...!!!!!!! LOL!!.
BTW..he picked the wrong disease..
( ever notice how every ad for 'cures' he either knows someone or has it
himself with all recieving 'MIRACULOUS CURES??!!') when he picked Osgood
Schlatter because this is a predominately CHILDHOOD ailment..hahahah!!
Better luck NEXT time..david!!!
snip..<<OSGOOD-SCHLATTER DISEASE(Osteochondrosis) OSGOOD-SCHLATTER
DISEASE
(Osteochondrosis)
GENERAL INFORMATION
DESCRIPTION
Osgood-Schlatter disease is a temporary condition of the leg at the
knee, characterized by swelling, tenderness, and pain. The tibial
tubercle, a prominence just below the knee cap attached to a large thigh
muscle connecting the bone of the upper leg (femur) to the large bone in
the lower leg (tibia), is involved. This disorder often affects both
knees. Osgood-Schlatter disease is most likely to affect adolescents. It
is uncommon after age 16...From the Complete Guide to Pediatric
Symptoms, Illness & Medications by
H. Winter Griffith, M.D. © 1989 The Putnam Berkley Group, Inc.;
electronic rights by Medical Data Exchange>
BTW..david couldn't even spell this disease correctly that he's
supposely had all his life..
His claims cover a wide array of disease cures..including FIBRO - CFS -
AIDS/HIV - ATHRITIS -WEIGHT LOSS and ADD/ADHD...ect.
snip..<<Scientist writings on antioxidant. more options
Author: John
PalmerEmail:jpal...@ix.netcom.comDate:1997/12/08Forums:alt.support.attn-def
icit
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On 6 Dec 1997 14:48:25 GMT, "Jean L. Sanford" <js...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
I prefer to keep things really simple by asking >myself 2 questions:
Does it work really well in dealing with ADD/ADHD?
And the answer is "no, it doesn't. There is absolutely no evidence
worthy of mention that it does, and there is no reasonable theory why it
should."
Are there any harmful side-effects or
adverse > results to taking it?
And the answer is "yes, if effective treatment
is foregone due to the pursuit of worthless treatment." The antioxidant
that I am familiar with, really works >well in helping children and
adults that have >ADD/ADHD. Then you *DO* have a study showing
this, right? Sure you do.
Post a synopsis of the results. . .
There are also no side-effects -
after all, it is all-natural.
And as everyone knows, curare has no side
effects; it is, after all, all-natural. Estrogen has no side effects; it
is, after all, all-natural. Aspirin has no side effects; it is, after
all, all-natural.
Just curious: Are you actually this stupid, or
are you just putting on an act?
Sometimes it is easy to get caught up in this Dr. >says such and such,
this research claims etc, this study shows... All I >really care
about is:
Well this has been long and drawn out..but some of the people on this
news group need a wake up call..concerning defending and supporting
people like david who come here as wolves dressed up in sheeps
clothing..actually I take that back..I DON'T want to insult EITHER sheep
OR wolves!!
But you get my drift.
Did I dig all this up only to have half of you scoff and tell me never
mind..?? I hope not..but ask yourself how many times you've REALLY
investigated these guys..before you start flaming me for trying to point
them out.
And yeah..I'll get plenty of flack from david over this..and from people
like him..but it was worth it if ONE newbie understands why all the
OLDTIMERS here are always harping on certain disreputable people popping
up here.
Food for thought.
BTW...IS THIS 'OUR' DAVE THE FLIM FLAM MAN...????
Snip...<<<Recently we've seen a proliferation of slick, four-color
mini-magazines extolling various individuals as health gurus. "Dr. David
Williams" once claimed merely to be "leading the worldwide search for
natural remedies." Since then he has humbly proclaimed himself to be
"America's #1 expert in natural healing" and "the 'Indiana Jones' of
natural medicine." Back when he was "leading the world wide search"
he was pictured in a library. After proclaiming himself "#1 expert"
he pictured himself in a white coat, holding a stethoscope, surrounded
by the trappings of medicine. Williams has a celebrity picture of
himself standing next to 60 Minutes reporter Mike Wallace who is
publicizing shark cartilage as a cancer cure. Who is this funny guy?
Williams is a chiropractor who apparently prefers publishing
medicine-bashing, health-hype to popping spines. Williams has been
writing and publishing his personal newsletter Alternatives "For the
Health Conscious Individual" since 1989. I n 1993, he went slick with "a
special supplement to Alternatives, dubbed Breakthroughs in Healing (is
this guy original, or what?!) Williams claims to have 130,000 readers
across America. (p.15) Our reading of his mini-magazines leads to
the conclusion that "#1 expert" Williams merely reiterates the same
unsubstantiated claims for health food products that have been being
made for many years. It seems like his "research" has been simply
reading health foods propaganda. Williams proclaims "the secret of the
astonishing new all-natural cancer cure!" "The secret of the
incredible new heart protection vitamin!" "The secret of the
remarkable ultratrace mineral that beats chronic arthritis!" "The
secret of nature's sure-fire cure for high cholesterol!" "The secret
of the remarkable 29 cent herb that helps revitalize your immune
system!" "The little known amino acid that reverses sexual impotence
like magic!" (Gee, Dave, these sound terrific!) "Doctor" Williams
also warns his readers about misinformation being foisted on us by the
bad old "medical monopoly." Williams tells readers not to use sunscreen,
rather, rub on "a simple solution of vitamin C and water." "Beware
of the aspirin a day craze"; if you want to "achieve the same anti-blood
clotting results as aspirin, take bromelain, an all natural extract of
pineapples."
According to the Lawrence Review of Natural Products (7/93), bromelain
is a proteolytic enzyme used to tenderize meat. Medically, it has been
used in burn injury debridement and to reduce soft tissue inflammation
and irritation. The pharmacologic effects of bromelain are caused by
an enhancement of serum fibrinolytic activity and inhibition of
fibrinogen synthesis. It lowers kininogen and bradykinin serum tissue
levels and has an influence on prostaglandin synthesis. Since
bromelain is absorbed unchanged from the intestine at a rate of about
40%, it may have some of the benefits of aspirin, which also increases
fibrinolytic activity and influences prostaglandin synthesis.
However, aspirin has an experimental research record of effectiveness
that bromelain does not. Williams has no experimental basis for his
assertion that bromelain has the same anti-clotting features and to
imply that it is preferable.
Despite Williams' overconfident proclamations, the following weasel
words* appear inside the front cover:
The approaches described in this special report are not offered as
cures, prescriptions, diagnoses or a means of diagnosis to different
conditions... The author or publisher assume no responsibility in the
correct or incorrect use of this information and no attempt should be
made to use any of this information as a form of treatment without the
approval and guidance of your doctor.
Thus, Williams taunts his readers with advice that they are warned not
to apply!
*"From the weasel's habit of sucking the contents out of an egg while
leaving the shell superficially intact: a word used in order to evade or
retreat from a direct or forthright statement or position" (Webster's
New Collegiate Dictionary>>
BTW..for those interested in licorice and possible health related
treatments..there's plenty of info on the web..just put in 'licorice
root' and take your pick.
We don't need people coming here trying to sell us something. We're all
adults and perfectly capable of finding these things our self..or
sharing what works with others without browbeating storm trooper tactics
and the hard sell shell game.
Shan :-)
Who is finished now and stepping down off her soap box..going to drink a
much longed for and needed latte now...
"When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
never tried before"
Mae West
Click here for Troll/Spam tension release
http://members.tripod.com/~webtv6/scream.wav
----------
d...@netradiomail.com
> So what?? Capt dave's web page.. concerning ocean cruises & marine stuff
> through his Moby Dick SEAQUAKE society, has A Hawaii addy but orginates
> over here in Floria...so get real!
Er, I said David L. Smith was in Michael Baugh's general area, which we
know to be Louisville. I also said David would have to travel hundreds
of miles to post from there. Hundreds, not thousands. Check out a map.
I know David is in Florida and not Hawaii.
> The Jean L. Sandford post to this group was dave williamns..LEARN TO
> READ GARY..READ READ READ!!!!!!!!
The Jean L. Sanford post was signed David, as in David L. Smith. There is
less than zero evidence that either of them was, is, or ever will be David
Williams.
> So try to get a life will ya..??
Charming. And leave you to create alt.med.fibromyalgia.blender? Not likely. -g
d...@netradiomail.com
> You're so full of [****] gary. Better learn how to read.
I've read this:
http://webtv.net/home/tos_text2.html
Perhaps you should. It's your webtv terms of service and includes:
<<----
4. Standards of Behavior
4.1 Network Conduct and Proper Language.
Conduct on the WebTV Network and throughout the Internet should conform with
public standards of decency and decorum, right of quiet enjoyment and current
"netiquette" standards...
and
4.2 Disallowed Behavior.
...Vulgarity, profanity or adult material within e-mail or greeting cards to
other people (who are not personally known to you or who do not specifically
consent to such messages), chat groups, Forums or within user e-mail names is
not permitted. Users shall not publish, post, distribute or disseminate any
defamatory, infringing, obscene, indecent or unlawful material or
information... ---->>
Can I ask you to get with the program? -g
Sir Laffsalot
(snip)
> If you see any spam from this guy forward it to
> abuse @ yahoo.com . Jean Sanford also has an aol address
> she doesn't seem to have used publicly yet of jsanf###@aol.com.
> I've forgotten the numbers but it is unlikely someone else
> matching that description will spam, and in either case forward
> it to abuse @ aol.com . Smith and Sanford have a company called
> Jedaka Marketing (there's no record of it being incorporated).
> They sell Image Plus mlm, amongst others. Take good care. -g
>
> Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime
Also try js...@juno.com (jedaka) 11/4/98
Dad2...@yahoo.com (David) 10/20/98
http://www.freeyellow.com/members4/dlsmith/index.html
I was visitor number 33!
Merely FYI, but if you want to report someone on AOL, please forward
with Full Headers to ab...@aol.net <---- not .com!
If it is a TOS violation, it wouldn't hurt to also forward to
TOS1...@aol.com <--- that's TOS1(one)
--Jaimes
fmc...@my-dejanews.com
find it necessary. There seems to be much concern for what newbies think when
they read posts here. One can only imagine when they read the vile stuff that
spews forth from you. Is there any reason anyone here can think of for saying
someone is full of shit? I find it repulsive, as I did your suggestion that
someone put their genitals in a blender.>>>
Ann, I think that if you find Shan Leslies posts so "vile" you would do well
to skip them. And yes most of us can find reason to say some one is full of
shit occassionally, however if you can not, then please bi-pass those posts
that offend your sensibilities. The rest of us will continue to enjoy Shans
posts and her honest expression of her sentiments. --fran
19981109212702...@ng87.aol.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
fmc...@my-dejanews.com
<<< David is gone. His work and research is on his web page. If people want
that, they can find it. It's time to call it quits with the namecalling and
outing of him.>>>
Ann, you obviously are fairly new here if you believe David is gone, he will
be back in a few weeks as soon as there are enough new names in the posts for
him to think he may have a market here!! As for what the newbies think, I
believe that they will be grateful that an experienced member of the FMly has
cared enough to warn them of the risks of Davids product. You point out a
book written by an MD about the treatment of FMS with licorice, there is no
comparison. Would you get your chemotherapy from a sales person or an
physician? Shan has done us a service in exposing David to all of the
newcomers, and if her language offends you, don't read her posts--fran
fmc...@my-dejanews.com
d...@netradiomail.com wrote:
> aval...@webtv.net (Shan Leslie) wrote:
>
> > You're so full of [****] gary. Better learn how to read.
>
> I've read this:
> http://webtv.net/home/tos_text2.html
> Perhaps you should. It's your webtv terms of service and includes:
>
> <<----
> 4. Standards of Behavior
>
> 4.1 Network Conduct and Proper Language.
>
> Conduct on the WebTV Network and throughout the Internet should conform with
> public standards of decency and decorum, right of quiet enjoyment and current
> "netiquette" standards...
>
> and
>
> 4.2 Disallowed Behavior.
>
> ...Vulgarity, profanity or adult material within e-mail or greeting cards to
> other people (who are not personally known to you or who do not specifically
> consent to such messages), chat groups, Forums or within user e-mail names is
> not permitted. Users shall not publish, post, distribute or disseminate any
> defamatory, infringing, obscene, indecent or unlawful material or
> information... ---->>
>
>
> Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime
>
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
And what happens if she doesn't, do you run to webtv and report her. Gary
Osborne the adult hall monitor? Running to tell the principal everytime some
one says a naughty word. Grow up Gary, some of the people that you have
defended in the past have used much worse language than Shan has. You do not
have to like it, just skip her posts if you don't like them. But you can't
can you? You should probably consider why this is so.--fran
d...@netradiomail.com
> Yes he was. Without quoting what I said. He objected to me posting about
> Dr. David Williams..and said I said 'he' was the same as capt dave..
> He is full of it..because I asked the question: "Are they one and the
> same??"
To which I responded no. No, they're not one and the same. Which part of
no don't you understand?
> I posted all eveidence of dave williams AKA..Jean L. Sanford..dad2jane
> and david L, Smith SHOWING they all were coming from dave
> williams...pretty hard to argue with the man using 2 different Email
> addys in ONE post..wouldn't you say????
David Smith's and Jean Sanford's email addresses both appear in one post.
So what? That has nothing to do with David Williams. You haven't in any way
tied Williams to Smith/Sanford no matter how many times you say you have.
Please repost any section of your original post that ties David Williams
to David Smith or Jean Sanford. If you can't, and if you can't come up with
any other evidence, I certainly don't expect you to admit you were wrong,
but give it a rest.
> Well..why aren't you?? Why are you HERE? If we're such a pack of
> uneducated know nothings..why do you and others like you keep showing up
> here..???
For newbies, Ann Bradley had been here about 3 years before Shan showed up.
I suggest you compare Shan and Ann's posts in dejanews. You will see why the
newsgroup is the way it is, and the way that it could be. Take good care. -g
JP
by the foul language and twisted thoughts I see posted on this newsgroup.
If I were a newbie, I'd be more taken aback by this behavior than by anything
else here. I'd also be rather insulted by the apparently widely held assumption
that ALL newbies are clueless sitting ducks regarding spamming and trolling;
and that they need alerts and warnings ad nauseam. Newcomers are perfectly
capable of making up their own minds about a treatment without having to
endure profanity and name calling by certain writers to this newsgroup. That
you've been told to skip over the offensive posts is absurd. Vile language and
sick ideation has no place here, not in any thread, period.
Julie
remove caps to reply
d...@netradiomail.com
Good catch. As Juno has bumped Dad2Jane they'll probably bounce that one.
> Merely FYI, but if you want to report someone on AOL, please forward
> with Full Headers to ab...@aol.net <---- not .com!
My error, sorry. I've written them so often they're in my address book. :)
I should have looked. :( Take good care. -g
MAWired
>of miles to post from there.
I live in North Dakota. I can post from anywhere in the world, right from my
chair here. All it takes is the right access number, and web sites are even
easier. You open an account with an ISP and upload your stuff, and bingo--your
page appears hundreds of miles from where you live, under that geographically
marked server.
Thumper... Oh Majestic Goddess of the Martial Arts
http://pages.prodigy.com/thumpersworld/fibrom.htm - FMS page
http://members.aol.com/fibrodo - The Way Of The Fog
Grow your own dope... plant a man
ABrad94101
<<You know something? If I use profanity here people know exactly where
I'm coming from.>>
Undoubtably. But ng's are not here to be a forum for us to know where you are
coming from. Your choice of words is not condoned by ng's in general, ISPs
(yours included I should imagine) and by people who prefer proper use of the
English language. It's been mentioned here many times that children and teens
with FM read this ng and we should respect their right to not have to wade
through coarse language because you choose this as a vehicle to let people know
where you are coming from.
<<Where was your indignation when gary was belittling and slamming people
not too long ago. >>
What has this got to do with your choice of language? And I've never seen him
curse at people, nor demean them as you do.
<<It seems apparent to me and many others that it name calling and ng
bashing is 'OK' with you...as long as it's not one of the great so
called unwashed & seemly unlettered people , like myself,>>
I've never seen name calling like you do it Shan. And I find it as unseemly to
call anyone unwashed and unlettered as I do to use profanity. I dislike you
using those terms on yourself as much as I do your reference to others that
way. I think that often education gets in the way of common sense and believe
that people, given respect, can get to the places they need to be with or
without education. But often, the abuse people have endured in life have made
them so bitter they lash out in fear and anger.
And no, of course I don't have to read your posts. No one does. But that is not
and never has been the point. A public forum is not private email. There is a
difference. You want to be free of spam and make an entire career here of
letting everyone here know you think its dangerous and life-threatening. I
couldn't disagree more. But no matter what I think, I want to be free of your
choice of language in this public forum as much as you want to be free of spam.
<<I posted all eveidence of dave williams AKA..Jean L. Sanford..dad2jane
and david L, Smith SHOWING they all were coming from dave
williams...pretty hard to argue with the man using 2 different Email
addys in ONE post..wouldn't you say????>>
I tried to follow your logic in this. I see no evidence that these people are
all one and the same . If you have absolute certainty of this, pls explain it
again. I need to see the evidence, i.e., direct correlation between Williams
and Sanford/Smith. How does the use of 2 different emails by Sanford/Smith
prove that they are Dave Williams?
<<but you clamp your
educated mouth shut..when your research buddies get down and dirty.>>
I dislike much of what goes on in the med profession amongst highly educated
people. I dislike a lot of nonsense from people who have convinced themselves
they have found the only answer to something. But unlike many here, I do keep
quiet so that I can learn from what they have to say. I follow their work, I
think about it and I integrate what they have done into my knowledge base. From
there, I can make informed decisions about further action. David Williams has
done so much research that its folly to throw the message out with the
messenger. I don't condone his words or actions here, but he was the victim of
mob mentality that thought he was a charlatan. I disagree completely. His work
is awesome in its scope. His belief that his licorice extract is the only one
to buy is bothersome and I disagree with his techniques here and believe it
weakens his position as a thoughtful researcher. He is not educated in the med
field and one has to carefully watch their step when dealing with people who
think having a degree confers abilities others don't have. His position would
have been stronger had he left out the sales pitch. But failing to recognize
his worth because of the sales is non productive.
So, is there a place for profanity here? Am I accepting of it if it comes with
information and research and techniques I can use? Frankly, I have no clue as I
haven't seen anything to equal what you have done.
<<
Why are you HERE? If we're such a pack of
uneducated know nothings..why do you and others like you keep showing up
here..???>>
This is a public place for people with FM. I would like to see it become a
place for information and learning. I learn much from reading posts and
contribute when I can. I don't know what you mean by 'others like me' and I
can't speak for them. I don't know if you are uneducated, but that doesn't
influence me at all. You probably know more than you think you do, most people
underestimate themselves.
ABrad94101
<<Ann, you obviously are fairly new here if you believe David is gone, he will
be back in a few weeks as soon as there are enough new names in the posts for
him to think he may have a market here!!>>
New is relative. Been here for five years, approx. I'm quite familiar with DW.
David's main interest is his research, not licorice sales. I find his theories
most compelling and can only hope he will find his way back here to share more
of them. I doubt that will happen as I understand David got pushed to extremes
and offended people here tremendously. Truly a loss. David was never able to
speak to this newsgroup in the manner they expected from a researcher with no
degree. He never was polite or terribly nice, but he had info for us. His work
is valuable. I understand Robert Frost is still being read in schools today
even though he was a spouse abuser. I suspect David's crimes are less
offensive, but he's been kicked out anyway.
<<As for what the newbies think, I
believe that they will be grateful that an experienced member of the FMly has
cared enough to warn them of the risks of Davids product.>>
I haven't seen any one warn of risks from David's products better than David
himself. They are clearly articulated on his web page. Newbies can read it and
decide for themselves.
<< You point out a
book written by an MD about the treatment of FMS with licorice, there is no
comparison.
I agree. The doctor used it experientally with not half the references David
has.
<<Would you get your chemotherapy from a sales person or an
physician?>>
Sales person. Who do you think trains the MD's? Ever been in an operating room
when a surgeon is using a new tool? The sales rep is present to use it the
first couple times to show him how to do it. But an academic question as chemo
is toxic to all cells and I would *never* poison my body in that manner. There
are far better non toxic treatments available.
<<Shan has done us a service in exposing David to all of the
newcomers,
No, she has not. She and others have simply and effectively shut out
information as well as any censor could do. For those people that could benefit
from licorice extracts this rush to judgment from a mob hell bent on getting DW
at any cost is one of the most shameful acts in the history of this ng.
<<and if her language offends you, don't read her posts->>
That Shan's language is acceptable to you and others is not the criteria for
what is acceptable posting on a public ng. If you base your derision of David
on his language and treatment of people, then the same standards should be
applied to others who also find it necessary to humiliate and degrade others
thru language.
d...@netradiomail.com
> And what happens if she doesn't, do you run to webtv and report her.
OK. Her behavior is clearly in violation of her TOS, and the newsgroup
netiquette suggested in multiple FAQ's and Usenet for Dummies books.
There have been numerous complaints about Shan to her ISP by various
people in her time here. One person even went to WebTV headquarters in
person. It is unlikely WebTV will do anything about it. WebTV is a
special case because they don't just sell internet access, they sell
the unit that is used as well, so kicking someone off gets more complex
for them. When I ran an FMS/CFS listserv WebTV was one of the worst for
not dealing with spammers. They even refused to get involved when a WebTV
subscriber was suicidal.
>Gary Osborne the adult hall monitor?
LOL! I once called Mark London the same thing. Karma, I guess :)
Nope, there's probably people on here who were on my listserv and
they didn't even know I ran it. I'm not a control freak. The only
people who heard from me were the spammers and scammers as they
were shown the door. Shan's behavior wouldn't have been welcome
there either. Not that I would have done anything about it, or
would have had to. There were about 100 people on the list and
any 20 of them would have read her the riot act. Here there's about
1000 posters and very few are willing to speak up. Not surprising
considering the viciousness that Shan and her acolytes (yourself
among them) use to remake this newsgroup into your own image.
>Running to tell the principal everytime some one says a naughty word.
People of all ages get fibromyalgia. I don't think Cybersitter and other
programs have this newsgroup rated adult only. Nor should they have to.
> You do not have to like it, just skip her posts if you don't like them.
If you don't like mine, shouldn't you take your own advice? Nope, if I
ignore Shan's posts she will continue to turn this newsgroup into the
worst gathering place for those with fibromyalgia on the internet. If it
was her playground I'd leave her to it, but as this is an entry point for
newbies, I'd like them to know that there is a better way.
>But you can't can you? You should probably consider why this is so.
I have. I know why this is so. I have watched Shan attack me when I
was exposing spammers. I have no idea what that was about, it was an
unfocussed attack, not dealing with anything I had actually said.
I have watched her attack Ann Bradley and Steve Emerson and Michael
Baugh when they were posting useful information for dealing with
fibromyalgia. Again, there was no discernible point to her attacks.
She wasn't arguing with anything specific the others had said. I
started to notice a pattern. If someone posts here about something
useful Shan may well attack them. Neither I, Ann, Steve, or Michael
have shown any indication that we are spammers. We've all been here
far longer than Shan. What is her agenda, and by implication, yours?
Stifling the free flow of information about fibromyalgia is the end
result of your actions and you even seem to take pride in this. I
find this sad and tragic. -g
d...@netradiomail.com
> I can post from anywhere in the world, right from my chair here.
> All it takes is the right access number, and web sites are even
> easier. You open an account with an ISP and upload your stuff, and bingo--your
> page appears hundreds of miles from where you live, under that geographically
> marked server.
Agreed. But I'm not going by the servers, there isn't sufficient information
to make the call. So in the cases of Smith/Sanford and David Williams, I
looked at whether they have left enough of a real life trail in their
respective areas that it would be unlikely they were all one and the same. I
think they have. I'm saying Sanford/Smith aren't David Williams. Take good
care. -g
Katroberts
>I've never seen name calling like you do it Shan. >
You then missed all of David Williams posts?
>David Williams has done so much research that its folly to throw the message
out with the messenger. >
Well Shan's done "so much research, too" so folly again to throw out the
message with the messenger!
> I don't condone his words or actions here, but he was the victim of mob
mentality that thought he was a charlatan. I disagree completely. >
We can see. And that wasn't mob mentality. It was an entire group sick to
death of David Williams.
>His work is awesome in its scope. >
Now isn't that the truth? You sick? Disabled? Christian? Have CF? Have MF?
Have a weight problem? Need the Lord? Have MS? Even a bit of cancer? You
are absolutely right. It IS awesome in scope, now isn't it?
>So, is there a place for profanity here? Am I accepting of it if it comes with
information and research and techniques I can use? Frankly, I have no clue as I
haven't seen anything to equal what you have done.>
You're kidding, right? David Williams screaming that everyone was a f******
idiot over and over was blinded to you? And that was some of the nicer
things. You seem somewhat educated. Go fish him out of Dejanews and read what
he said. I don't recall you ever saying, "Dave, there is no call for this type
of language on this NG." Shan must have magnet appeal. You all just start
coming out of the woodwork after her. And dang if it doesn't even work. She
STILL stays. That must *really* make you mad.
Kathy in Sacto
Nancy J. Bond
wrote:
<snip>
>I haven't seen any one warn of risks from David's products better than David
>himself. They are clearly articulated on his web page. Newbies can read it and
>decide for themselves.
><<Shan has done us a service in exposing David to all of the
>newcomers,
>
>No, she has not. She and others have simply and effectively shut out
>information as well as any censor could do. For those people that could benefit
>from licorice extracts this rush to judgment from a mob hell bent on getting DW
>at any cost is one of the most shameful acts in the history of this ng.
>Ann
At the risk of being flamed (again), I agree with Ann on this point.
I do sincerely appreciate it when anyone issues a warning about a
product that is proven and known to be unsafe and about those who
might try to "push it" on newcomers or anyone else in this group.
But Ann has made two very important points, that (1) "newbies can read
it and decide for themselves" and (2) that by verbally chasing anyone
away from posting on this newsgroup, it "simply and effectively
shut[s] out information as well as any censor could do." What works
for some may not work for others, certainly, but at the same time,
"One man's poison is another man's cure." Everyone who posts on this
group seems pretty intelligent to me and perfectly capable of
researching and drawing their own conclusions about a product or those
who represent it.
This is not intended in any way to undermine the considerable amount
of time and work that Shan put into her research on this person in
question and I know that her heart is in the right place and that her
intentions were good. Nor is it meant to sound condescending and, no,
I am not trying to perpetuate the seemingly never-ending thread of
nastiness which runs through these posts. I'm just posting my
opinion, such as it is, and for what it's worth.....Nancy Bond
"Nature has given to men one tongue, but two ears,
that we may hear from others twice as much as we speak."
-----
Remove the * to reply
-----
Nancy J. Bond
<jcrbR...@CAPSsd.cybernex.net> wrote:
<snip>
>If I were a newbie, I'd be more taken aback by this behavior than by anything
>else here. I'd also be rather insulted by the apparently widely held assumption
>that ALL newbies are clueless sitting ducks regarding spamming and trolling;
>and that they need alerts and warnings ad nauseam. Newcomers are perfectly
>capable of making up their own minds about a treatment without having to
>endure profanity and name calling by certain writers to this newsgroup. That
>you've been told to skip over the offensive posts is absurd. Vile language and
>sick ideation has no place here, not in any thread, period.
>
>Julie
Katroberts
Take good care. -g >
That's funny Gary. When I first came aboard last year you were spitting mad
at Shan THEN. I didn't know anyone but sat back and watched you try and try
and try to pick apart Shan. You would get even MORE mad when she signed off
she was sippin' a latte and making Gary mad. I even did the "dreaded Dejanews"
stuff just to get a little background.
Mishu is right. You're on her like a cheap suit every time she posts. And she
doesn't even post that much. You have little bells and whistles that go off
every time a Shan post comes on? I can just see you running out to get a
coffee then a little bell goes off. "Dang! Have to jump Shan again. And I
was JUST going to get coffee." But then you were a team, then right? Weren't
you Holly and Gary? I thought I saw those two names signed together several
times. Just remembering "what it was like."
Kathy in Sacto
Katroberts
Shan's posts she will continue to turn this newsgroup into the worst gathering
place for those with fibromyalgia on the internet. If it was her playground I'd
leave her to it, but as this is an entry point for newbies, I'd like them to
know that there is a better way. >
And you don't point them to Fibrom-L because......?
Kathy in Sacto
Angloanne
d...@netradiomail.com wrote in message <7276u8$f1t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>"Angloanne" <an...@hailwood.prestel.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> You are basing this hypothesis on what ???
>
>I'm not making an hypothesis. Shan did. For the record, Shan alleged that
>David Williams was David L. Smith and Jean Sanford. Shan based her
hypothesis
>on the fact that a Jean Sanford post was signed with the name David (there
>were actually two Sanford posts signed that way). Apart from the fact that
>the name David was common to Williams and Smith and that both posted here,
>Shan gave no further evidence to support her hypothesis. Using that
criteria,
>I'm surprised no-one has accused David Williams of being Dr. David Nye.
>
>> Ah but, have YOU been to Deja News and done a search on this man/yourself
>
>Yes, A number of times over the last couple of years. I used to post here
>about how to use Deja News to expose spammers. I can't say Shan was a
>star pupil. In fact Shan's spamfighting abilities are a recent affectation,
>she once flamed me here for exposing some mlm magnet salespeople.
>
>> ? - if you had, you would know that everything that Shan says is from
>> knowledge gained on Deja News - are you saying that THEY are wrong also ?
>
>Shan has taken information from Deja News and misinterpreted it. Using Deja
>News alone sometimes isn't sufficient, particularily if you are going to
jump
>to unwarranted conclusions. David Williams and David Smith are posting from
>different computers, different software, and different areas. That seems
like
>a lot of work to go through to mask one's identity. I don't know whether
the
>tools to find this out are available on WebTV, but even a content analysis
of
>their posts and websites also points strongly to them being different
>individuals. I'm saying Shan made a mistake. You can accept her hypothesis
>and continue this thread (though you might want to rename it 'Those short
of
>critical thinking skills line up here') or you can reject it.
>
>> as for your, Love, Light Laughter sig - isn't it a bit hypocritical after
>> posting this nonsense?
>
>No. -g
>
>Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime
>
?, that is Sam - 51, lives in Chicago and is no-one else ! - but in fact Sam
was Capt Dave so whether Capt Dave is a liar or Sam is a liar is like
arguing with yourself over what to wear ! Shan did her work well and she
has provided enough evidence to prove what she has written, she may, in your
opinion, not have been a star pupil of yours but then again, looking at your
"defence", I would say that the pupil appears to have outdone the teacher,
is this the problem perhaps ? As for all the trouble that Capt Dave would
have had to go to, well he DID, he has posted on this NG under several "non
de plumes", all in a pitiful attempt to get people to listen to his inane
ramblings, I would suggest that you go to Deja News and do your own search
and then come back with positive proof that Shan is, as you allege, wrong -
until then, I think I'll tend to believe that the man who came here calling
everyone hypochondriacs, old crows, etc. cannot let it rest and for that
reason alone, keeps returning with a "masking device" that is as pitiful and
inneffective as his salesmanship.
"L" as in Love, light, laughter and licquorice,
Anne (UK)
Angloanne
"L" as in "Love", "light", "laughter" and "licquorice".
"G" as in "Gary", "grudge", and "graduate" - of the Capt Dave school of
denial
Anne (UK)
Angloanne
too'ers"
>>slinging mud and proud of it.
>>
>>David is gone. His work and research is on his web page. If people want
that,
>>they can find it. It's time to call it quits with the namecalling and
outing of
>>him. For those who don't find the idea of licorice appalling, they might
be
>>interested to know you can read about the use of licorice and CFS in a
book by
>>an MD. He claims to successfully reverse CFS with licorice. I saw the book
at
>>Borders, but don't have the title or author with me. It's a 1998 pub date
with
>>CFS in the title. I'll try and find the specific reference again.
>>
>><<I NEVER said they were...
>>
>>That wasn't obvious from your post. Most here were thanking you for doing
just
>>that. You could have corrected this before if you didn't really say so.
>>
>><<again..LEARN how to READ..
>>I asked IF he were one and the same..>>
>>
>>Looks like the answer is no.
>>
>>Ann
I can only say Ann, that you obviously were never the recipient of one of
Dave's private posts that delved into the realms of profanity to a level
hitherto unseen !
Also, I am assuming that you didn't actually peruse adequately the posts
from both David and Sam, because if you had done so then you would have seen
that the use of the word Sh** is mild compared with some of the terms that
these "two" used to describe certain members of this NG. Could it be a case
of seeing what one wants to see perhaps ?
The writing is on the wall and those who wish to ignore it, do so at their
own peril, if for one mad moment, you think that D Williams will not return,
albeit under yet another disguise, then I fear that you are sadly and
mistakenly optimistic. Regarding your assertion that all the information
pertaining to Dave's posts are on his web site then I really feel that I
must ask - which one ?
I have seen books pertaining to countless ailments, all written by "Doctors"
claiming magic cures for everything from cancer to ingrowing toe-nails but
let me just ask you one final question - if the licquorice treatment is so
good, then how come it is not being widely used by hopitals, doctors etc.?
I have in my possession a mailshot that contends that it is safe and easy to
lose 28 pounds in 2 weeks, this product also has references from "doctors",
but would you use it?, if you have a modicom of sense then the only answer
can be NO because everyone knows that this is a dangerous regime to follow
and until the day when Mr. Williams gets rave reviews in the medical
journals of the world, then I, for one, will still hold with my initial
views on this type of "pressure marketing".
Anne (UK)
>>
>>
>
>
d...@netradiomail.com
> That's funny Gary. When I first came aboard last year you were spitting mad
> at Shan THEN.
I've never been spitting mad. It gets spittle on the computer screen. Hmmm,
mebbe if I had a webtv unit... naw, that's too cheap. This isn't the first
time Shan has made a mistake and I've called her on it. Your point is...?
> You're on her like a cheap suit every time she posts.
Well, if she could manage to post about fibromyalgia once in a hundred posts,
or post without profanity, or post without attacking those who were paying
dues long before she got here, then I'd cut her some slack. She's the one who
came here spoiling for a fight. Now she's got one. What a surprise.
> But then you were a team, then right? Weren't you Holly and Gary?
No. I am not Holly, Holly is not me. David Williams is not David Smith, I am
not David (any of them) and I don't think you are either. Francis Bacon may
or may not have posted as William Shakespeare. Are we clear on this yet?
> I thought I saw those two names signed together several times.
Not by me. Any post of mine is mine and mine alone. That's why I sign it -g
Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
RickMo3
break from all the fighting. You will be greatly missed by many and I hope
after a rest you will feel able to come back. You are one of the backbones
of this Ng. Don't let the B******** grind you down.>>
Thanks Moira, but it really isn't the fighting here that gets to me. I've very
often professed my feeling about the slugs who come in here trying to disrupt
the peace and tranquility we all work so hard to establish.
This ng has been a long term haven for many people. It has also been a place
for humor and support and very solid information.
Unfortunately, it's the people like Matron, Capt. Dave, Gabsol and all the
other multi-named idiots who can't help but intrude on the good people of this
group and cause all kinds of havoc. What their motives (other than greed) are,
I couldn't say. But the recent "tell-all" authored by Shan was a classic. It
showed some of the idiots for who they are and yet--there are those--who may
also be aliases for all I know, who insist on defending Dave et al.
It's too insane... I've got a lot of stuff going on in my life right now that
doesn't leave me much time to wander over here much anymore.
That is why I'm not in here every 10 minutes responding to the bs posted by the
trolls and spammers. In a way I wish I did, but in the long run, it's probably
best I'm not since I'd like to see them all get what's coming to them.
Moe
******Half Full, Half M.T.******
Moe
RickMo3
a lot of work to go through to mask one's identity.>>
No one has ever accused you of not going to a lot of trouble to try and prove
others were simpletons--face it--you're snagged!
And as for your
<<Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime>>
I also remember that you helped push Gretchen/Holly over the edge right about
the time you both started functioning as if you were joined at the hip..
Another one of your disasters--have you no shame?
RickMo3
to
dig hard to find it. Hell, he even misspells the same words consistently in his
endeavors. Gotta at least give him credit for consistency.>>
/you're absolutely right on Thump--some of these idiots don't even realize they
are so recognizable because of their spelling, the tone of their e-mail and the
cadence... Amazing that they don't know how obvious they are--and when
fingered--they say, "Duh, that's not me--how could it be me? I don't live in
Bolivia... Nuts to all of them!
RickMo3
Who are you now? Oprah???
d...@netradiomail.com
> ><much snippage>
> Oh PLEASE !, next you will be telling us that Sam99 wasn't Capt Dave either
No I won't. What makes you think you know what I'll do next?
> Shan did her work well and she
> has provided enough evidence to prove what she has written...
Prove to whom? Not to anyone who has the slightest understanding of the
net or spammers. I suggest Shan take her proof over to news.net.abuse or
one of the other ng's that deal with spammers. They'd point out the same
errors of fact and reasoning I already have.
> As for all the trouble that Capt Dave would have had to go to, well he DID
For David Williams to have assumed the persona of David Smith he would have
had to maintain a second life in a city hundreds of miles away from where he
lives. This strains my credulity far beyond the breaking point.
> I would suggest that you go to Deja News and do your own search
The first time you said this I let it slide as you seem to be fairly new
to some things, but twice is enough. Please read the footer at the bottom
of this and every one of my posts. I don't need to go to dejanews, I'm
already there. I've searched and read every post of D. Williams at least
once. I've read every post from D. Smith/J. Sanford at least twice. They
aren't the same people IMHO. I've been busting spammers here for years and
elsewhere on the net since before deja existed so I might know a bit. I don't
trumpet that information, I just go ahead and do it, it's part of keeping the
neighbourhood a better place to be. There used to be a team of us here who
had spammers nailed before most people had even seen their posts, but the
rest of the team has been driven off, not by spam, but by Shan and her fans.
> and then come back with positive proof that Shan is, as you allege, wrong -
You're asking me to go out and prove that there isn't a unicorn. One cannot
positively prove a negative. Feel free to continue believing Shan's version,
it isn't true but it makes for a good story. But arguing with me about it is
pointless as you have no evidence (Shan's fans use quantity rather than
quality to try to crush a contrary opinion but I try to keep up). Making
fun of my sig is pointless too. -g
Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime
ABrad94101
<<I can only say Ann, that you obviously were never the recipient of one of
Dave's private posts that delved into the realms of profanity to a level
hitherto unseen !>>
No. But I've never called David names either. We don't correspond. I simply
read his research.
I've seen some of David's anger on this ng. I never have justified his use of
it, but he has been the recepient of some of the most mindless baiting that his
anger doesn't surprise me. I probably was gone during the worst of this and
didn't see some of the nastier remarks he made. But I do recall the poster that
said he got what he deserved when his son died last year. I wonder what level
of baiting he was supposed to hold out for. He's no saint, but this ng treated
his attempt to share information as if he were trying to kill them.
<<Regarding your assertion that all the information
pertaining to Dave's posts are on his web site then I really feel that I
must ask - which one ?>>
The licorice site.
<<let me just ask you one final question - if the licquorice treatment is so
good, then how come it is not being widely used by hopitals, doctors etc.?>>
There are a number of answers to this. Are you aware of the battles, primed
with pharmco money that are being fought to keep non-patented and therefore non
-profitable treatments away from people? That's the first part of the answer.
The profit motive.
The second part has to do with education. Herbalists and medical docs prior to
WWII used licorice extensively for many illnesses. Most herbs were phased out
as chemicals from WWII began to become an industry. As this took place, doctors
were not trained in the use of herbs anymore. The use of herbs was looked upon
as old fashioned and was suspect. I can remember my dad (an MD) laughing at the
old time remedies he grew up with (his dad was a pharmacist of the old school -
compounded everything). Funny, how I see those coming back into favor now as
people become aware of the danger posed by toxic drugs. Licorice falls into
this category. Very few doctors know of the pharmacological properties of this
herb. However I did post a web site devoted to the medical uses of licorice
several weeks ago. It was written by a professor of pharmacology. Actually,
licorice is widely used. We tend to think that only the English speaking world
counts. Licorice is used in many many cultures all over the world by thousands
of doctors and millions of people. If you want further information about the
efficacy of licorice or how it is used by many all over the world you might
want to read an interesting book entitled The Scientific Validation of Herbal
Medicine. The discussion on the dangers of inadequate familiarity with an herb
might be of particular interest.
<< have in my possession a mailshot that contends that it is safe and easy to
lose 28 pounds in 2 weeks, this product also has references from "doctors",
but would you use it?, if you have a modicom of sense then the only answer
can be NO because everyone knows that this is a dangerous regime to follow>>
My answer would *not* be an unqualified no. Why? Because wholesale dismissal of
anything is not my style. If this were a product that was of interest to me I
would look at the list of ingredients and see if I wanted to research this
product further. I might put the name of it in a search engine and gather data.
I would not rely on the mailer alone, nor would I rely on one or two hits from
a search engine. After I had researched the product and understood the
mechanisms of action I would then decide what action I wanted to take. And if I
liked what I found, I'd then shop around for a similar product at a better
price, or perhaps look for the individual ingredients at the hfs. This method
works for me. I like people who bring information to me. I find that most
everything that comes across my path has proved to be of some interest in one
way or another. With the internet at your fingertips the knowledge base you
have available is tremendous. You don't have to rely on others to make
decisions for you. You can make decisions based on information, not fear that
someone is out to rip you off. I love the information that flows from people
here - it simply means more for me to learn about. The research DW brought to
me was extraordinarily interesting. To miss this would have been a shame.
Some used DW's posts as an opportunity for learning. Others chose to view him
as the devil, a spammer, a charlatan, a user. He never deserved the derision of
this group, the wholesale trashing he rec'd. That he responded by calling
people old crows is not right and I don't admire this in him. He has a mouth ,
no doubt about it. He also tried to bring a body of information and was treated
as an undesirable. He sells licorice extract that he believes is standardized
and better than what others have. If you are interested in the information,
David was always willing to discuss theories and studies - studies in
mainstream journals. Most chose to ignore this. No one would talk about his
studies except for a very few. Most people chose to focus on his sales of
licorice. I suppose we all have our areas of interest.
As for rave reviews in med journals...well, the number of ad pages in med
journals is more than the number of text pages. What that means is that the
pharmacuetical companies are what keep the med journals alive. A product that
they can't make a profit from will not be receiving rave reviews too soon.
OTOH, times are changing and if you want to wait for some researcher to tell
you what you could learn yourself, you just might have your chance. BTW - a
powerful statistical test is individual AB AB testing. More powerful than
waiting for a group to determine an "average". That's all you find in journals.
Frankly, if I were interested in taking licorice I'd contact the doctor writing
about it in his book on CFS. He's a clinician with real life patients. Not a
researcher with a statistical norm.
Martron
her illogical utterances. So what is it this time, dear? I'm a
'multi-named idiot,' is it? Oh well, we all know by this point that you and
your ilk make no attempt to have a fact or two to back up your demagogic
tongue aerobics, so we just sort of take everything you say with a grain of
salt. I've never posted under any aliases, but Nancy has, so I guess you're
including her in your general insult, too, eh? Or were you just shooting
blindly from the hip, without regard to whom you might nick?
Haven't missed a beat,--I've been lurking for many months just to see
whether you and your historically revisionary misfit hatemonger friends
could possibly move on to new subjects. Of course the situation has not
changed. What a surprise! It's the same old show: Shan, Moe, Fran and
company unendingly gang up on the tolerant and logical, in fact upon anyone
who isn't willing to toe their pronouncements as to what is right or wrong
on this group. The names of the logical and open-minded opponents change
from time to time, but the arguments, the points against your unacceptable
obstruction of the free exchange of information, the virulent name calling
that you both instigate and perpetuate, all else remains the same.
You seem to be incapable of seeing that the "problem" could lie with you. I
read speech after speech after speech from you and members of your clique
about how they wish the conflict and newsgroup wars and battles would cease,
and yet the simplest, most effective manner of dealing with that which you
offends you, to ignore it, is an avenue that none of you seems capable of
traveling. You've advised countless times to the people who oppose these
objectionable posting practices that they "skip" or "delete" or "pass over"
your posts, and yet the fact that you continue these petty battles and
combative threads is prima facie proof that you do not follow your own
advice. Just how is it that you believe you work hard to establish peace
and tranquility? By name calling? By throwing eggs of insult? By
spreading lies and false rumors? That was your contribution today by
calling me an idiot without provocation and insinuating that I had posted
under more than one name. You people have done this so many times to anyone
that opposes you that it has become laughable to us--an inside joke and
proof of an (apparently) incurable lack of desire on your part to see the
Truth, apart from your tinted version of truth. We accept that not everyone
will see life from our point of view, and let it stand at that. Why is it
so difficult for you people to do the same? It is the only way that people
from diverse backgrounds and with diverse priorities can possibly get along.
The alternative is to segregate people of different idiologies. And yet,
the loudest objections to a spin off or splitting of the group usually comes
from someone in your camp, too. It makes you wonder about the sincerity of
your desire (let alone the effort) to have a peaceful and tranquil newsgroup
experience.
And finally, just what is it that you think all "us" undesirables ought to
have coming to us for our assorted sins and transgressions? I'd really like
to know and have it become a permanent part of the deja news record for all
see if they bother to do the research necessary uncover the truth about the
politics on alt.med.fibromyalgia. I suspect it was a reference to Shan's
man-hating "blender" remedy, but why don't you eliminate any doubt and make
yourself perfectly clear?
Martron
P.S. You guys are really consistent at misspelling my name. Is that
indicative of your intelligence and educational levels, like you imply that
spelling errors are of your opponents, or do you just have trouble fingering
certain typing combinations occasionally, like the rest of us?
RickMo3 wrote in response to Moira's message
<19981110224527...@ng87.aol.com>...
Moira: Although I am very sorry to see you go I do understand the need to
take a
>break from all the fighting. You will be greatly missed by many and I hope
>after a rest you will feel able to come back. You are one of the backbones
>of this Ng. Don't let the B******** grind you down.>>
>
>Moe: Thanks Moira, but it really isn't the fighting here that gets to me.
Deirdre MacKenzie
> (hefty snips) BTW - a
> powerful statistical test is individual AB AB testing. More powerful than
> waiting for a group to determine an "average". That's all you find in journals.
> Frankly, if I were interested in taking licorice I'd contact the doctor writing
> about it in his book on CFS. He's a clinician with real life patients. Not a
> researcher with a statistical norm.
>
> Ann
Hello, Ann. A great pleasure. Would you be so good as to describe "AB
AB" testing?
Deirdre
.
d...@netradiomail.com
> And you don't point them to Fibrom-L because......?
What are you on about? For those who don't know, Fibrom-L is a listserv
(an email list) for those with fibromyalgia). For info go to:
http://www.fibrom-l.org/
I've posted this before. Thanks for the reminder. -g
d...@netradiomail.com
> No one has ever accused you of not going to a lot of trouble to try and prove
> others were simpletons
Why should I try to prove that?
> I also remember that you helped push Gretchen/Holly over the edge right about
> the time you both started functioning as if you were joined at the hip..
I did nothing of the sort. What on earth are you talking about?
> Another one of your disasters--have you no shame?
I assume this is meant to be nasty. Perhaps you could rephrase it so I have
some idea of what you are talking about. -g
Michael Baugh
dear? I'm a>
No, Martron, you've got it all wrong. You see, it wasn't Moe's petulantly
inane comments that dragged you back in, it was YOU that dragged you back
in. Instead of going on along, and viewing them as meaningless attempts
to fling out in as many directions as possible and somehow feel better
for it afterwards, you gave credence to them by responding. You gave the
troll under the bridge yet another target by jumping up and yelling
'Ouch! That hurt!' And you pointed out another one of the reasons that
this NG can only be considered supportive if a person happens to prefer
the use of profanity and generalized character assaults and demonization.
The EGG-SUCKING WEAZELS should have given you a hint at the start of the
thread. The animal's name isn't even spelled correctly.
And the use of the analogy of the eggs being sucked out, leaving the
shell apparently intact is an apt one. Certain people seem to have it as
their crusade to jump on anyone that does not personify their notion of a
'member', and try to take that as their cybernet persona. And for that
they get all kinds of positive strokes. And get defensive if someone
suggests another direction. And such an antic just shows how shallow and
empty they really are.
Shan did a good bit of research. Likely for the wrong reasons, but it is
a step in the right direction. She actually left this safe haven, and
actually did some research. Granted, it wasn't about a treatment
protocol, a new product, etc. But it is quite possible that she
accidentally glanced at some of the information that was being presented
in some of those posts she researched. It's a start.
Martron, there are some things you can change. There are other things you
cannot. In order for you to reduce your personal stress level, you need
to look at those posts trying to drag you in as amusing. You need to
think 'Better ones than you have tried'.
And that's the point of several of the previous posters. Keep or delete,
notice or ignore. And if you can't do that, you are contributing to the
problem.
Me? Hey, I really don't care. I don't have fibro, the people that I know
that do have it avoid this NG as dysfunctional, and are working on
getting better, or staying the same, without the 'help' offered by its
'members'. And you know, they are managing to survive without it. Quite
likely better than if they were here.
> salt. I've never posted under any aliases, but Nancy has, so I guess you're
> including her in your general insult, too, eh? Or were you just shooting
> blindly from the hip, without regard to whom you might nick?
Got that wrong too. The term, in this case, would be 'shooting from the
lip'.
Katroberts
>
>What are you on about? For those who don't know, Fibrom-L is a listserv (an
email list) for those with fibromyalgia). For info go to:
http://www.fibrom-l.org/ I've posted this before. Thanks for the reminder. -g
It's a suggestion because you don your superman suit and try to erase the evil
Shan does to this newsgroup. Like it's the one and only goal in your pathetic
life is to show Shan up. Yet you STILL post here. Post over to Fibrom-L. A
bunch of like people who don't have to put up with friendly chit chat, but gets
down to the medical profession of it all. You said yourself, if it weren't for
you, Shan would run wide. Why it's up to you and you only to save us all.
Ain't gonna happen. All that's gonna happen is you picking on Shan. You want
the REAL medical fibro group, direct, direct, dircect over to to Fibrom-L.
It's moderated, wouldn't take the likes of YOU or SHAN, but people would get
what you are saving them all for. Oh yeah. If you all went over there, there
would be no talk of alt.med.fibromyalgia.blender. I know how you so want to
stop that. Sollution? Fibrom-L. And of one who sings the praises of it, STAY
THERE. We don't need you to save us. We need you to leave us. See the
difference? You wouldn't. You're too busy coming over to the unmoderted group
and searchiing out Shan. And darn the luck, it doesn't work!
Kathy in Sacto
Katroberts
>Me? Hey, I really don't care. I don't have fibro.
Well what a surprise! Kind of like people without kids giving great advice on
how to RAISE those kids.
Martron
I envy your ability to deal with these things with such concise aplomb.
Wish it were as easy for me!
Martron
d...@netradiomail.com wrote in message <72c4rd$k36$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Fran
else remains the same.>>>
Come on Martron, you're the one who called me a member of the EVIL
TRIUMVERATE!!! I find it interesting that you and a few other men find
Shan so threatening that anyone who supports her and her right to speak
out are called lackeys, a clique or horrors "an evil triumverate". You,
Gary, David, and Michael all seem to share the same fear, perhaps that
is why you all hide and lurk for so long, and leap in consortium on her
when she posts. And then you complain when others support her. I'm
sure you don't mean to be, but you certainly are pathetically laughable.
Is it true that you and another FMly member are starting your own
moderated group (with you as moderator). That will be nice for you, no
dissenting voices to upset you.--fran
JP
>Another one of your disasters--have you no shame?
Have YOU no shame?! Remember this?
http://x12.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=332521334&CONTEXT=910802754.18532
I do, and it stands out as the meanest, cattiest and most uncalled-
for message I've read on amf in two years. I've no desire to play a
part in resurrecting an old controversy, but you brought it up, and
your hypocrisy here won't go unchallenged by me.
Julie
remove caps to reply
Katroberts
group (with you as moderator). That will be nice for you, no dissenting voices
to upset you.>
Ooooh! Could it be called The Evil Quadumverate Home Shopping Network?
And Martron, why DID you tell us Nancy used an alias. I don't recall her
telling the group she did. Did she write you a personal email and say, "Oh I
have a headache. Please go back in the group and tell something I may have
told you privately? Nice friend. Yeah, I can tell your group will go far.
We'll sure as hell miss you. But as has been said before, DLTDHYOTWO. Or let
it. Who cares?
Kathy in Sacto
d...@netradiomail.com
> It's a suggestion because you don your superman suit and try to erase the evil
> Shan does to this newsgroup.
Fibroman suit actually. Thanks for another reminder. Time to repost that
story.
> Like it's the one and only goal in your pathetic life
Flame bait. You should know by now I don't respond to that.
> You said yourself, if it weren't for you, Shan would run wide.
Feel free to repost where I said that.
> Why it's up to you and you only to save us all.
It isn't. I didn't say that. You're saying I said that.
> It's moderated, wouldn't take the likes of YOU or SHAN,
I was on FM-L for over a year, I left of my own accord.
> We need you to leave us.
When fibromyalgia is eradicated I will. -g
ACOFTIL
wrote:
>I've never posted under any aliases, but Nancy has,
I need to say some things publicly at thispoint.
First, I originaly posted anon to demonstrate to all how it is done
and how easy it is--I didnt consider it anon because I told you who I
was and did it to "show" how it can be done.
Then I posted as peace...@love.com to make a point that *all* sides
of the argument had gotten out of hand. I did this twice and 4 people
on this ng knew (or figured it out) that told me--others may have, but
they did not tell me. In recent weeks, I HAVE NOT POSTED ANON--I have
said my piece under my real name. You can look me up in the phone
book--I'm there.
I post anon on another group--everyone does--it is a necessary fact of
life and I will not disclose that id--I would be at great risk. And
the remailers have been down for over 2 months, so I've not posted
there at all for a long time.
Lastly, I referred to some people here as having an arrogant
attitude--including Michael--I include myself in that catgegory--I
have a hard time seeing how my words may be taken as arrogant, or
like I have the attitude that I *know* everything. It is my style, it
is michaels style, it is david's style and others. That is just an
observation--not a criticism. Communicating on the net is
difficult--words and symbols are used to convey messages, but others
may interpret them differently or hear a different tone. So it is
important to see beyond the online attidue and glean what information
there is.
I use my signature to try to level my words and show that even though
they may sound arrogant, I'm just trying to help or voice my opinion.
It is my way of mitigating how I come across.
This type of argument will continue here. It has been here since I
started reading 2 years ago. Also the trolls and spam artistist will
continue to show up. Each of us chooses how to respond, to ignore, to
report, or to start a posting war. It is your choice--so make one
that is the least stressful for you.
I *LIKE* Shan, Moe, Fran, Kathy, Martron, Michael, even David at
times, I *LIKE* all of you and you are all part of this fmily. I hope
you all stay and are able to argue with a bit less profanity and name
calling. ARguments are good--name calling is not good.
Off my soap box and confessional.
May your good days be many and your bad days fade away,
Nancy
To respond via email, delete "nospam" from my addy.
Dingaling Debbie
"I used to be snow white, but I drifted"
Mae West
--
dingaling deb
Shan Leslie <aval...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<26138-36...@newsd-164.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> I said..<<<<You're so full of shit gary. Better learn how to read.>>
ABrad94101
<<Hello, Ann. Would you be so good as to describe "AB
AB" testing?>>
Sure.
A=take product(drug, herb, homepathic remedy, etc) B= don't take it.
wait a day, week, month - (whatever time you choose)
begin again.
Do this as much as you like. You are the control because you are the one
monitoring the experiment. You are comparing yourself with the substance to
yourself without the substance. You are comparing yourself to yourself. In
other words, you don't have to fill out a questionnaire in a research setting
about how you feel (subjective ) and have the results pooled and analyzed. The
end result of that is a normative figure - a statistical norm, which altho you
can do many powerful statitistical tests and think all variables have been
controlled for, in fact this never happens.
Why? Well, let's take a look at Prozac. Under the Freedom of Information Act it
was found that Prozac was tested for 6 weeks on homeless men. Forget the
inanity of 6 weeks - take a look at the population tested. How many of the
people taking Prozac fit the biochemical profile of a homeless male? I would
imagine liver enzymes for one are very different not to mention nutritional
status and other biochem markers. And self reporting is a big part of drug
testing (feel better, get dizzy? nauseous?, etc). Well, it's not unlikely that
people lie to give what they think the researchers want (not only homeless for
sure - anyone in a study can do that) and often people forget to take the drugs
yet report they have. And so we have a drug tested on males with a lifestyle
very different than the population the drug is sold to. The validity of this
kind of research reaches nil quite quickly. Yet, people tend to trust this
research (done by the drug co's themselves - talk about self serving!) rather
than a substance used for thousands of years by millions of people. Go figure.
Sure wish I had the drug co PR people working for me.
BTW - this kind of testing (AB, AB) may seem common sense and it is. And while
some might not find this to their liking it is no different than when a doctor
says to you , "Well, let's try this drug for a while and see how you do." Then
you try it, and self report if you feel better or worse. Then based on what you
say the dr stops it or continues.
I've done lots of smart drugs this way. I must add that I research the
substance I take for weeks, sometimes months before I take anything because I
don't use doctors so I tend to be quite cautious. I am much less cautious with
supplements . As a matter of fact I found out thru AB AB testing that I needed
to triple my supplements four yrs ago. I was taking way too little of
everything. Tripled all and that was the beginning of improvement for me. Since
then I constantly refine , delete and add based on my own reactions.
Katroberts
>> It's a suggestion because you don your superman suit and try to erase the
evil Shan does to this newsgroup.
>
>Fibroman suit actually. Thanks for another reminder. Time to repost that
story.
>
>> Like it's the one and only goal in your pathetic life
>
>Flame bait. You should know by now I don't respond to that.
>
>> You said yourself, if it weren't for you, Shan would run wide.
>
>Feel free to repost where I said that.
>
>> Why it's up to you and you only to save us all.
>
>It isn't. I didn't say that. You're saying I said that.
>
>> It's moderated, wouldn't take the likes of YOU or SHAN,
>
>I was on FM-L for over a year, I left of my own accord.
>
>> We need you to leave us.
>
>When fibromyalgia is eradicated I will. -g
BINGO!!! "When fibromyalgia is eradicated I will." Wowweee! When your job on
earth is complete, you shall rest. Until then, you will fight the good fight,
and apparently only in a group you WISH were moderatated, but somehow left the
one that was. Go figure. I guess we're just plain unlucky.
Kathy in Sacto
Martron
pleased as pie at her success in learning to post anonymously and boasted
loudly at the time for 'all' to see (<g>, Nancy). You merely forgot, or
chose to distort, as is your wont. I didn't refer to her posts as
peacemaker. She had told me that the group didn't know and I respected
fully her right to choose if and when to reveal herself. As for the rather
incoherent umbrage that comprises the rest of your note, all I can say is
that Nancy has written to me today--we discussed her appreciation for some
humor I passed on that made her husband laugh, her exasperation at a mistake
one of the kids made and her excitement about new car shopping--in other
words, we carry on normal conversations: nothing at all to hint at the
melodramatic notion of betrayal and subterfuge that has somehow risen in
your head out of my allusion to her having posted anonymously. Perhaps
egg-sucking causes one to become an expert at making a mountain out of a
molehill--a fascinating but off-topic discovery for fibromyalgia.
The rest of your post is a mere unsuccessful attempt at
Katroberts wrote in message <19981111140736...@ng18.aol.com>...
Katroberts
as pie at her success in learning to post anonymously and boasted loudly at the
time for 'all' to see (<g>, Nancy). >
Nope! She said she knew *how* to post annoymously. She didn't say, "and by
the way here IS my alias." Nor did she say she would try it and see if it
fooled us. Thanks to you, Nancy had to come forward and say what it was. Were
it not for you, she wouldn't have had to. You spilled the beans Matrton and I
couldn't care less if she wrote you sharing recipes. You spilled the beans and
that's all there is to it. Deal with it.
Kathy in Sacto
Martron
>I find it interesting that you and a few other men find Shan so threatening
I wouldn't call her so much threatening as she is demeaning or possibly
man-hating. There is an obvious lack of tolerance for those who vocalize
different thinking
>You, Gary, David, and Michael all seem to share the same fear, perhaps that
is why you all >hide and lurk for so long, and leap in consortium on her
when she posts.
Ha ha. As Gary says, you're flame baiting. Although I think you're lumping
me in with good company, I am quite sure it's not fear we share. We do
share a few common traits, though--the belief that if we keep digging we
will uncover the cause of fibromyalgia or a treatment that offers relief to
most everyone, despite the lackadaisical approach of mainstream medicine;
the notion that such a discovery is more likely to come about from a free
exchange of experiences/investigation/research helped along by constructive
questioning and refutation rather than insulting drivel; a belief that
name-calling and inflammatory remarks do not need to constitute the front
line of our communication efforts (although we're split on whether one
should partake of the customs of our attackers occasionally to make a
point.)
>And then you complain when others support her. I'm sure you don't mean to
be, but you >certainly are pathetically laughable.
More flame bait. I mean (and am meant) to be however I am. As are you. As
are we all. If you find yourself laughing pathetically, perhaps you have
some innate need to do so and should find out why. Then again, self
examination would be a trait more likely found among the company you lump me
into. So again, I take no offense at the company you compare me to.
Martron
Shan Leslie
When I first came to this news group I was excited and stimulated by
different
posters here because of their indept research and writing abilities as
they wrestled with different therories and ideas about the cause of FM.
Yes, I was intriqued and interested in most of the med posters like Ann
Brad, Steve Emerson, and even Michael Baugh, ect. I even posted support
on various topics Steve or Ann discussed.
But a very interesting pattern began to immerge. I saw alarming and
vicious attacks from these very same people toward innocent and
questioning news group members.
The worst offenders were David Williams, Martron and a person called
Birdie.. Oh sure, Steve swore a few times..called Moe some nasty
names..Ann spoke in haughty pear shaped patronizing tones as her
insults were worded in polished yet snide ways against ALL members of
this news group: Ann Brad says to David Williams on Sunday
12/28/97::snip<< I dispair that anyone doing research and going to this
ng has to read the thousands of words on whatever the brain drain topic
of the day..>>snip
How utterly mean spirited and condesenting! Proof of how she really
REALLY views this group..inspite of her high opinion of herself. (An she
didn't even use the S**t word! LOL!!)
So I began to question the tactics and ethics of researchers like these
who presented, for the most part, good information, with one side of
their mouth , yet belittled, intimidated and bashed the members of this
news group who either questioned or just didn't 'get' the so called
message, outa the other side.
Because I questioned them, I was labeled a 'troublemaker'. Nevermind
that these people were lording it over this news group and had for some
time, I was automactically cast as the 'bad guy.'
It didn't really matter what I posted about, whether it was humor, chat,
pets, sorrow, Clinton, sex, food..whatever.. I was NOW labeled. My words
were twisted by whatever person of this ilk I responded to.
And yes, I did post some medical topics concerning magnet therapy,
Lipofucin, The Zone Diet, Hypoglycemia and doctors, to name a few, even
though Gary Osborn still can't get by my 'latte' drinking.
But in speaking up and pointing out their behaviors I was still branded
and named a 'attacker' and a 'troublemaker'. The funny part is..the VERY
people calling me those names..were slugging it out , either with each
other, or hurling patronizing insults at other members here.! Yes, these
nice, highly educated (?), articulate and polished researchers who so
wanted to run and control this news group with nasty, snide and veiled
insulting inuendoe, were accusing me of all sorts of things
because I was calling 'them' on it!!
Go figure!!
Apparently...my name strikes an uncalled for chain reaction in their
little twisted hearts..to be assinine and surly towards me, no matter
what. Don't believe it? Well fasten your seat belts ..because they will
climbing all over each other to get to me now.
The funny part of all of this is..I rather enjoyed and respected the
medical info by these people, the hard work and diligence of posting med
related news and research, and had they played nice would have continued
to do so.
But..aside from the others..Gary Osborn strikes everytime my name is on
a post, any post. The difference between Gary and the above mentioned
posters, is that I have NOW caught him in lies concerning me. I have
become a 'fetish' for him. I have been flamed and bombarded with
countless nasty ,assinine, untruthful and silly "excremente" ( Anne said
I shouldn't say 'Shit') posts from him for months now. The man can't get
'enough ' of me!! Ha hahaha!!
Gary can't stand anything I post (ask me if I care) and will go to any
length to snipe at me with his usual chatty, inane , mean spirited &
spiteful way.
Case in point: EGG SUCKING WEAZELS
When I posted about Capt. David Williams and his numerous alias'es, Gary
whined and cried that I was not doing the news group any help by posting
this important revelation. Why? Simply because it was 'ME' that posted
it. Apparently Gary and friends 'think' they have a corner on exposing
spammers and trolls here. They can not stand it if I do. Had it been
'Joan Smoe' from Cocoa Moe, he wouldnt have uttered a sound. How do I
know?
By Gary's own words...<<when someone posts here with the latest wonder
cure. Those should be responded to, not directly, but on the newsgroup
so newbies aren't taken in (and to their ISP if you know what you're
doing). Like I said, that's in my humble opinion. Take good care. -g>>
So, had it been anyone else who gathered this info..like Ann or
Steve..ect. , he would have applauded and sent prose dripping with with
praise.
Case in point: EGG SUCKING
Mr Osborn also takes issue with the ability to post under different
alias'es and says to me..after I reminded him ..snip<< Which we ALL know
YOU bragged about doing it...gary!>>
Gary lies and said..<<Wrong. I said it is easy to post under different
addresses to hide one's identity. I didn't say I had done it. Any and
all posts I have ever sent here in over two years may have come from
different addresses but have all clearly been mine.>>
And so HERES the proof that Gary said he'd DONE it...after saying HE
DIDN'T.
snip<<If you're going to use different addresses to get the group to go
where you want you should do like me. Use an entirely different address
and a laptop at a payphone. No, I don't support myself that way. I am
being scrupulously fair. I may also be devious enough to be one of those
disagreeing with me. Like I said, this is cyberspace.
g-..>>snip
Well gary said he was 'devious enough to do it'..not me!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Case in point: EGG SUCKING
Gary snivels about my post concending Capt Dave Williams being AKA: Jean
L. Sanford and David L. Smith, saying,,<<
<<So in the cases of Smith/Sanford and David Williams, I looked at
whether they have left enough of a real life trail in their respective
areas that it would be unlikely they were all one and the same. I think
they have. I'm saying Sanford/Smith aren't David Williams.>>
And YET in a later post states they have a company together!!! LOL!!
Gee...what a
coincidence!! Well DUH!!!!!!
How come if they're at opposite sides of the universe as Gary
whines...they have a business TOGETHER???????? LOL!!!
He states it himself here..snip<<Smith and Sanford have a company called
Jedaka Marketing (there's no record of it being incorporated). They sell
Image Plus mlm, amongst others. Take good care. -g
Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime>>..snip
Case in point: EGG SUCKING
Gary loves to paint me in as bad a light as possible, and sobs..<<There
have been numerous complaints about Shan to her ISP by various people in
her time here. One person even went to WebTV headquarters in person.>>
Ha ha ha..in yer dreams!!
snip-g Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime -----------==
Posted via Deja >>
Folks, I NEVER EVER had one incident of such a thing EVER happening. I
have NEVER been contacted in any way shape or form by Web Tv for any
post of mine.
But you see, Gary lies and manipulates and twists the truth concerning
me. He is ruthless in this, as others have so well noted.
When he's been called on it he evades and twists the truth , but he does
admit it here..<<snip<<Author: Gary
OsbourneEmail:d...@bc.sympatico.caNOS
PAMDate:1998/02/17Forums:alt.med.fibro
myalgia more headers
author profile
view thread
Shan Leslie wrote:
Gary musta got up on the wrong side of
the bed this >past few months, as he's
been pretty down right rude >to this group.
<<Cheap trick Shan. I've been rude to you
and a coupla others, not the group.>>
So he admits he's ONLY rude to me..and
a few others..Gee whiz..NO WONDER I feel like a target!!
And then he admits...<<I never claimed I was rational. Who wants to be
rational?
This is cyberspace.>>
Well gee Gary, I been saying that about you all along!! Thanks for
finally agreeing!! LOL!!!
I'll admit..I've used profanity here. But it's interesting to note none
of the above posters EVER EVER call their cronies on the VERY same
stuff.
Steve can call Moe a 'controling bitch"...Dave can tell all of the news
to go Fuck it'self'..Call people hyponcodriacs and idiots, braindead and
stupid..' Martron can stomp , rant and rave over perfectly nice people
here , like an imbecile, frothing big pointy words to hurt and
abuse....and NARY a word of CAUTION.. or a 'TSK TSK' from Ann or any
other such poster who ridicules me for saying shit...oops!
"EXCREMENT!!!"
Interesting..huh???
Ok..I'm done now with gary and his silly tantrums. As well as the
research crowd..
I'm staying and so is he...thats life. But I wanted to set the record
straight about a few things here. I have a lot of other info concerning
gary and his tactics..Martron, Ann and Dave..but I'm too weary and tired
to drag this out any further. And I'm just as bored by this as the rest
of you...but I'm sure Gary and his minions..will draw ranks and start
taking pop shots at me again...so I better go have a LATTE!!!
And gary & all complains I NEVER do research...!!!!!!!!!!
<wink>
Shan :-P
"When choosing between two evils I always like to take the one I've
never tried before"
Mae West
Click here for Troll/Spam tension release
http://members.tripod.com/~webtv6/scream.wav
Martron
>Now Matron has descended to the very depths by trying to maintain that
>everyone else is a "hatemonger" and she is the "angel of peace"
Hyperbole gets you nowhere--there is a huge difference between the bulk of
this group--hundreds of decent, respectful posters--and the handful of your
friends who qualify as hatemongers and perpetuate unending newsgroup wars.
>
>I agree completely with you Matron, people with different backgrounds and
>ideals should be separated
You should reread what you thought you were paraquoting. I said people of
different backgrounds should accept that there are others who won't share
their viewpoint. What you wrote was an alternative--and the undesirable one
at that.
>You have been as confrontational as ANYONE on this group and yet you then
>deem to set yourself up as some sort of "higher being",
Utter nonesense. There's Saddam Hussain and there's the World Coalition.
Is the Coalition confrontational for standing up to Saddam? Well, perhaps
so, but certainly not to the same degree as Saddam, who started everything.
(and for the sake of clarity, I am not comparing myself or those who think
like me to Saddam--that honor goes to your cronies). Ask your grandparents
what their rewards were for not standing up to evil aggression from Germany
during the world wars. Britain suffered greatly. In fact your capitol was
pulverized, and it was knocked off its pedestal as the pre-eminant world
power. No small price to pay for appeasing bullies.
Where's the "higher being" stuff coming from? That's a new twist on the
same old same old. Cute.
> well that is fine
>because the real sufferers
sounds to me as though you might agree with Dave that there are some
hypochondriacs here ("non" real sufferers). I'm so glad you two have
something in common. (Horrors--you have something in common with good old
Dave!!--he'll probably knock off a cybersalvo at me for that)
> I don't see many posts from you in support of people,
obviously you've neither asked anyone, except perhaps your cronies, or
checked deja news. If you had you wouldn't make such a silly, false
statement.
>you just
>seem to pop up whenever there is a "war" going on
??? when could one possibly pop up on this newsgroup WITHOUT a war going on?
At least I'm not in the middle of them all.
>is this what lights your
>fire ?
No, dear, Brad Pitt lights my fire. Anybody want to trade jpegs? (I've got
the nudies!!)
>Separate from me as from now because I find you an obnoxious person with no
>idea of compassion at all
You're the one who addressed me. Separate yourself! I didn't address you
or even include your name in my posts 'til now.
You and yours have never understood that there's a goodly portion of us who
don't buy into this newsgroup's vision of self-pitying compassion. We want
ANSWERS to a devasting illness, and we don't want to wade through hundreds
of bullshit posts everyday to glean out a few good posts. Every single
person that points that out gets ostracized, attacked, dragged into
wasteful, fruitless arguments, has their posts misquoted and misinterpreted,
is libeled and invited to take a hike (as if YOU had held the key to the
newsgroup). And then you have the consummate gall to suggest that I (we)
lack compassion! Well who's sitting on their high horse now, Ms. UK? Your
compassion is sitting on your lapel for all to see. Alas, my magnifying
glass isn't that powerful.
>I shall take your advice and skip your posts
Sure you will, just like you did this one.
>they are not worth reading anyway
Say what? if you really had the low-down on me from way back, what did you
read this post for?
>PLEASE don't try to Email me privately
Yeah, right, like I'd ever have reason. Save your melodramatics,
lady--outside your clique they aren't worth squat.
>I have a filter which automatically deletes the rubbish that I receive.
It must work well, as you are obviously oblivious to the trash your friends
send out, and yet you receive MY posts. Are you sure you have that filter
set up the way you want it?
>
>Roll on separation day.
You know, that sounds a little like a play on Armistice or Veterans Day (of
course, it's always possible that you're completely ignorant of it).
Perhaps it was just an unfortunate coincidence, but if it was a play on the
date, shame on you for defiling so solomn a commemoration. Much American
blood was spent protecting your precious island country from its foes. The
least you could do is show a little respect.
Martron
Martron
Shan Leslie obsessed for 10 incredible kilobytes of her unique revisionist
history about how Gary Osborn is obsessed with her
<1208-364...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net
I'm so astonished by the magnitude of such a waste of bandwidth that I'll
throw my hat into the ceasefire, too.
Martron
Angloanne
d...@netradiomail.com wrote in message <72avsc$n44$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>"Angloanne" <an...@hailwood.prestel.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> ><much snippage>
>
>> Oh PLEASE !, next you will be telling us that Sam99 wasn't Capt Dave
either
>
>No I won't. What makes you think you know what I'll do next?
What makes me think that you are avoiding the question ?
>> Shan did her work well and she
>> has provided enough evidence to prove what she has written...
>
>Prove to whom? Not to anyone who has the slightest understanding of the
>net or spammers. I suggest Shan take her proof over to news.net.abuse or
>one of the other ng's that deal with spammers. They'd point out the same
>errors of fact and reasoning I already have.
I assue you that Capt. Dave and all his cronies have been reported to their
ISP's by many people but the problem is that they come back as different
people, AOL send out "free one month trials" all the time - so anyone can be
who they want to be and some people DO take advantage of this.
>
>> As for all the trouble that Capt Dave would have had to go to, well he
DID
>
>For David Williams to have assumed the persona of David Smith he would have
>had to maintain a second life in a city hundreds of miles away from where
he
>lives. This strains my credulity far beyond the breaking point.
It may well strain your brain to think that someone may go to such lengths
but the sad fact is that they do so I suggest you try and stretch your brain
a little more.
>
>> I would suggest that you go to Deja News and do your own search
>
>The first time you said this I let it slide as you seem to be fairly new
>to some things, but twice is enough. Please read the footer at the bottom
>of this and every one of my posts. I don't need to go to dejanews, I'm
>already there. I've searched and read every post of D. Williams at least
>once. I've read every post from D. Smith/J. Sanford at least twice. They
>aren't the same people IMHO. I've been busting spammers here for years and
>elsewhere on the net since before deja existed so I might know a bit. I
don't
>trumpet that information, I just go ahead and do it, it's part of keeping
the
>neighbourhood a better place to be. There used to be a team of us here who
>had spammers nailed before most people had even seen their posts, but the
>rest of the team has been driven off, not by spam, but by Shan and her
fans.
Oh, there you go again, what IS IT with you and Shan? do you have some sort
of crush on her that you have to stalk her posts ? If you are AT deja news
then you obviously have not "got the hang" of it even after all your years
of being a "spam buster"
>
>> and then come back with positive proof that Shan is, as you allege,
wrong -
>
>You're asking me to go out and prove that there isn't a unicorn. One cannot
>positively prove a negative. Feel free to continue believing Shan's
version,
>it isn't true but it makes for a good story. But arguing with me about it
is
>pointless as you have no evidence (Shan's fans use quantity rather than
>quality to try to crush a contrary opinion but I try to keep up). Making
>fun of my sig is pointless too. -g
Oh, did we hit a bit of a sore spot there, I merely asked you for proof of
your hypothesis that D Williams is D Williams and no-one else, is he a
unicrorn too ??. It appears that making fun of your sig hits home whether
you like it or not.
>
>Love light laughter... and a cure in our lifetime
Yes - a cure from spam and trolls and people who think that they know more
than anyone else, you may be rusty Gary, I haven't seen you around for a
while, in fact I only ever seem to see you when Shan posts - sgrange that ?
Anne (UK)
No love, light and laughter - just facts.
Angloanne
Martron wrote in message <72baht$to2$1...@nw001t.infi.net>...
Oh dear me,
Now Matron has descended to the very depths by trying to maintain that
everyone else is a "hatemonger" and she is the "angel of peace"
I agree completely with you Matron, people with different backgrounds and
ideals should be separated and YOU would be one of the first on the list to
be separated, do you think that attacking another member of the NG in this
fashion is classed as "acceptable", well perhaps you do but most people know
where you are coming from and it is not the "supportive" role that you
strive to convince people that you have.
You have been as confrontational as ANYONE on this group and yet you then
deem to set yourself up as some sort of "higher being", well that is fine
because the real sufferers and the ones who try to give support as opposed
to hanging on to every word of the trolls etc. know exactly where you are
coming from - I don't see many posts from you in support of people, you just
seem to pop up whenever there is a "war" going on, is this what lights your
fire ?
Separate from me as from now because I find you an obnoxious person with no
idea of compassion at all, I shall take your advice and skip your posts as
they are not worth reading anyway, oh and PLEASE don't try to Email me
privately, I have a filter which automatically deletes the rubbish that I
receive.
Roll on separation day.
Anne (UK)
Angloanne
Michael Baugh wrote in message <3649C7...@aye.net>...
>Martron wrote:<Well, well, well, leave it to good old "half empty" Moe to
>drag me back into her illogical utterances. So what is it this time,
>dear? I'm a>
>
>inane comments that dragged you back in, it was YOU that dragged you back
>in. Instead of going on along, and viewing them as meaningless attempts
>to fling out in as many directions as possible and somehow feel better
>for it afterwards, you gave credence to them by responding. You gave the
>troll under the bridge yet another target by jumping up and yelling
>'Ouch! That hurt!' And you pointed out another one of the reasons that
>this NG can only be considered supportive if a person happens to prefer
>the use of profanity and generalized character assaults and demonization.
If ou don't have fibro then what the hell are you doing here ? (besides
telling everyone how to get cured !)
Anne (UK)
>
>
bozoth...@whatamess.com
To set the record as straight as my foggy brain can. The first time I
posted anon it was as: canyo...@anon.com or something like that
with a screen name of something like, "can you figure out who I am"
I did it to demonstrate how easy it is to post anon--I did it more
than once to show different ways of posting anon. I was playing
around with a new toy.
I did not post anon on AMF for many months until this argument started
and (IMO) got out of hand--then I posted about 3 times as
peace...@love.com
I fully expected everyone to figure out who I was by my writing
style--guess I did a better job than I thought <sticking out what
little chest I have><EG>
Now, you all go to your rooms for a five minute time out. Breath
deeply and let this one go--it does not bother me either way--so my
friends, and you are *all* my friends, you needn't argue about me
anymore. You may call me names and email me all you want--I have a
tough skin--been through 25 yrs of counseling! :-)
Nancy
aka bozo the clown
aka peacemaker
aka one of the arrogant ones
aka not the baby, the momma
aka (oh, I cant tell you that one!)
Angloanne
ABrad94101 wrote in message <19981111012749...@ng91.aol.com>...
>Angloanne" <an...@hailwood.prestel.co.uk>said:
>
><<I can only say Ann, that you obviously were never the recipient of one of
>Dave's private posts that delved into the realms of profanity to a level
>hitherto unseen !>>
>
>No. But I've never called David names either. We don't correspond. I simply
>read his research.
And you obviously never questioned the sources or the results of that or you
would have been honoured with one of his "you are a hypochondriac and
deserve to be ill" posts.
>
>I've seen some of David's anger on this ng. I never have justified his use
of
>it, but he has been the recepient of some of the most mindless baiting that
his
>anger doesn't surprise me. I probably was gone during the worst of this
and
>didn't see some of the nastier remarks he made. But I do recall the poster
that
>said he got what he deserved when his son died last year. I wonder what
level
>of baiting he was supposed to hold out for. He's no saint, but this ng
treated
>his attempt to share information as if he were trying to kill them.
His anger doesn't surprise you because you only saw the abridged version of
it, he NEVER posted on the NG what he posted in private. He has been to so
many NG's with the same old jargon that we know what he is doing, he went
away and then came back as someone else, does this tell you anything about
him ? I was not here at the time of his son's death so cannot comment on
that. I do know that he is so obsessed with getting his message across to
anyone who will listen that he will not take part in rational debates, he
would rather insult anyone who questions him, are these the actions of a man
who we are supposed to rust ?
>
> <<Regarding your assertion that all the information
>pertaining to Dave's posts are on his web site then I really feel that I
>must ask - which one ?>>
>
>The licorice site.
Which one ?
>
>
><<let me just ask you one final question - if the licquorice treatment is
so
>good, then how come it is not being widely used by hopitals, doctors
etc.?>>
>
>There are a number of answers to this. Are you aware of the battles, primed
>with pharmco money that are being fought to keep non-patented and therefore
non
>-profitable treatments away from people? That's the first part of the
answer.
>The profit motive.
Oh come on, if this is THE cure that Dave makes it out to be, someone could
make a million out of it, after all do you know of any other "cures" on the
market at present ?
>
>The second part has to do with education. Herbalists and medical docs prior
to
>WWII used licorice extensively for many illnesses. Most herbs were phased
out
>as chemicals from WWII began to become an industry. As this took place,
doctors
>were not trained in the use of herbs anymore. The use of herbs was looked
upon
>as old fashioned and was suspect. I can remember my dad (an MD) laughing at
the
>old time remedies he grew up with (his dad was a pharmacist of the old
school -
>compounded everything). Funny, how I see those coming back into favor now
as
>people become aware of the danger posed by toxic drugs. Licorice falls into
>this category. Very few doctors know of the pharmacological properties of
this
>herb. However I did post a web site devoted to the medical uses of licorice
>several weeks ago. It was written by a professor of pharmacology. Actually,
>licorice is widely used. We tend to think that only the English speaking
world
>counts. Licorice is used in many many cultures all over the world by
thousands
>of doctors and millions of people. If you want further information about
the
>efficacy of licorice or how it is used by many all over the world you might
>want to read an interesting book entitled The Scientific Validation of
Herbal
>Medicine. The discussion on the dangers of inadequate familiarity with an
herb
>might be of particular interest.
Lots of herbs have been "resurrected" and as far as I am aware, licquorice
is not one of them. Many doctors now use medicines that are herbally based
but the reason that the licquorice was not put into the medical itinerary
was that it has potentially lethal side effects for people with hypertension
and his is something that has been overlooked by Capt. Dave and yourself.
Most of the modern medicines used today are either herbal or fungal based
and if there was any medicinal benefit to be gained from licqurice then it
would have been done but as it has not then we can only assume that the
dangers oputweigh the benefits. The toxicity issue of drugs is a major
debatable question and many people do turn to alternatives but only SAFE
alternatives, why take something that is potentially as dangerous as a
precription drug by choice ? A Professor of Pharmacology is NOT a doctor,
do you go to your pharmacist for medical information ?
>
><< have in my possession a mailshot that contends that it is safe and easy
to
>lose 28 pounds in 2 weeks, this product also has references from "doctors",
>but would you use it?, if you have a modicom of sense then the only answer
>can be NO because everyone knows that this is a dangerous regime to
follow>>
>
>My answer would *not* be an unqualified no. Why? Because wholesale
dismissal of
>anything is not my style. If this were a product that was of interest to
me I
>would look at the list of ingredients and see if I wanted to research this
>product further. I might put the name of it in a search engine and gather
data.
>I would not rely on the mailer alone, nor would I rely on one or two hits
from
>a search engine. After I had researched the product and understood the
>mechanisms of action I would then decide what action I wanted to take. And
if I
>liked what I found, I'd then shop around for a similar product at a better
>price, or perhaps look for the individual ingredients at the hfs. This
method
>works for me. I like people who bring information to me. I find that most
>everything that comes across my path has proved to be of some interest in
one
>way or another. With the internet at your fingertips the knowledge base you
>have available is tremendous. You don't have to rely on others to make
>decisions for you. You can make decisions based on information, not fear
that
>someone is out to rip you off. I love the information that flows from
people
>here - it simply means more for me to learn about. The research DW brought
to
>me was extraordinarily interesting. To miss this would have been a shame.
You would ten be putting your life in danger, if you were to lose that
amount of weight in such a short time, you would be losing lean muscle along
with the fat and you would also be putting a burden on your whole system
that nature NEVR intended. If you are so ill informed that you would even
bother to look into such a ludicrous claim then you are a "safe bet" for
Capt. Dave's ventures - end of debate.
>
>Some used DW's posts as an opportunity for learning. Others chose to view
him
>as the devil, a spammer, a charlatan, a user. He never deserved the
derision of
>this group, the wholesale trashing he rec'd. That he responded by calling
>people old crows is not right and I don't admire this in him. He has a
mouth ,
>no doubt about it. He also tried to bring a body of information and was
treated
>as an undesirable. He sells licorice extract that he believes is
standardized
>and better than what others have. If you are interested in the information,
>David was always willing to discuss theories and studies - studies in
>mainstream journals. Most chose to ignore this. No one would talk about his
>studies except for a very few. Most people chose to focus on his sales of
>licorice. I suppose we all have our areas of interest.
We all have one area of interest and that is a "cure", we have seen so many
potential "cures" come and go that we tend to look at everything in great
detail, we do research into the benefits and the side effects and if we
don't like what we find then we ask questions. This was what happened with
Capt. Dave but rather than gove anyone answers to their questions if they
were of a dubious nature, he chose to attack the people involved, thereby
giving everyone the impression that h had no "back up" for his information
and did not take kindly to anyon asking him for further information. If
your doctor treated you in such a fashion, would you trust him ?
>
>As for rave reviews in med journals...well, the number of ad pages in med
>journals is more than the number of text pages. What that means is that the
>pharmacuetical companies are what keep the med journals alive. A product
that
>they can't make a profit from will not be receiving rave reviews too soon.
>OTOH, times are changing and if you want to wait for some researcher to
tell
>you what you could learn yourself, you just might have your chance. BTW - a
>powerful statistical test is individual AB AB testing. More powerful than
>waiting for a group to determine an "average". That's all you find in
journals.
>Frankly, if I were interested in taking licorice I'd contact the doctor
writing
>about it in his book on CFS. He's a clinician with real life patients. Not
a
>researcher with a statistical norm.
AND if I wanted clinical information on anything, I would ask a REAL doctor,
which I did, the doctor who I approached about the licquorice told me that
it was as much use as eating any other "candy" but had the added danger of
being a definite danger to people with hypertension. My findings are based
on personal experience with a REAL doctor who may well read all the "ads" in
the medical journals and may well have been given some sort of "incentive"
to use certain drugs - BUT all the drugs he prescribes have been tested and
authorised - has the licquorice extract ?
Anne (UK)
Angel
>Here's an old one from my files, posted every fall, er, autumn:
<snip>
Thanks for the *smile*! ....Angel
"Nature has given to men one tongue, but two ears,
that we may hear from others twice as much as we speak."
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