What were you before you were a Mason?
Treeclimbr
___________________
Robert Pearson
Creative Virtue: http://www.eskimo.com/~telical/
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net/
Dr Glenn Lowry
--
Sincerely & Fraternally,
Glenn R. Lowry
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Francis Ormond No. 286, UGLV
Esk No. 60, GL Tasmania
Internet No. 9659, UGLE
Companion, Centenary Chapter No. 52, HRA
18°, Melbourne Sovereign Chapter No. 68, AASR
weaver
I believed the same things I believe now. I believed in helping other
people. I believed in improving myself. I believed that somewhere in the
world there most be others like myself, and I found many of those people
in Freemasonry.
S&F,
Peggy Butera, MM
Order of International Co-Freemasonry, Le Droit Humain
JD, Atlanta 583
JW, St. Germaine, South Florida
Floyd Dennis
treec...@aol.com (Treeclimbr) wrote:
>I'm curious what people believed before they were Masons.
>
The same as they believed after they became Masons, most likely. It's
a Fraternity, not a religion.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Floyd Dennis, Jr.
Sam Davis Lodge #661 F.&A.M., Smyrna, Tennessee
http://sam_davis.home.mindspring.com/
32° AASR, S.J. USA, Valley of Nashville, Orient of TN
fbde...@mindspring.com
Original Text Copyright 1999 Floyd Dennis, Jr. - All Rights Reserved
Tom Krummell
and baptized into the Christian belief. Since that time and due in no
way to Masonry, I've learned that religion has spawned more hate and
discontent through intolerance than any other catalyst.
Tom Krummell
Roseville, CA
============================
Treeclimbr wrote:
>
> I'm curious what people believed before they were Masons.
>
> ___________________
> Robert Pearson
-- A closed mouth gathers no foot.--
Taro Stahl
Floyd Dennis wrote:
> In article <19990710065442...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,
> treec...@aol.com (Treeclimbr) wrote:
>
> >I'm curious what people believed before they were Masons.
> >
>
Rick & Trish Rambin
community. Now I am a man that is trying to do my best and trying to
improve myself and my community with the help of other men that have this
same quest. My beliefs have not changed....they have improved through the
communion and fellowship I have with men that I call Brother.
Masonry is not a religion. No Mason has ever tried to change my beliefs in
MY God nor the way I worship Him. We are a Society of men that have a
belief in a Supreme Deity. So, once again, my beliefs have not changed . .
Treeclimbr
I am interested in the subject matter of the answers that
I received It's interesting that some
said "to be a good person" and
something to the effect that "I was
in sin." My beliefs
are that many people want to be
good, but they are so stuck along with
most other people and can't quite get
to the point where they are being
the best they can be. I see the
ritual and fraternity aspects
of masonry helping greatly in this
regard, but I am not a mason. I would
like to know more about joining. I feel
there are certain things to draw me to
it. I developed an interest in esotericism
while still a teen and yet I don't believe
in most esoteric things, my beliefs are
basically Christian. Yet, I still understand
that there are greater mysteries of life
and that there is value in a tradition that
is passed down from person to person.
I realize some things aren't meant for
everyone, perhaps including myself.
Terry Williams
stands without our portals, on the threshold of this new masonic life,
in darkness, helplessness and in ignorance. having been wandering amid
the errors and covered over with the pollutions of the outer and profane
world, he comes inquiringly to our doors, seeking the new birth, and
asking a withdrawal of the veil which conceals divine truth from his
uninitiated sight. MANUAL OF THE LODGE. sounds religious to me.
social and divine are two different things. when a man is
initiated into masonry, the senior deacon of the lodge describes him as
one "who has long been in darkness, and now seeks the light"
why would any christian allow himself to be described that way? what did
jesus say? "then spake jesus againunto them saying, i am the light of
the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall
have the light of life. (john 8:12) christian brothers, you have no
further need of light or revelation on how to be a socially good man, if
you have jesus in your life. please think about this. come out and be ye
seperate.
Terry Williams
the divine god. jesus is the way, the truth and the life. jesus came to
set the religious people free, and to look to him. read about his
interactions with the scribes and pharisees of his day. religion will
always fail. a person who believes on the lord jesus christ is not
participating in religion.
Doug Freyburger
>
> My beliefs are that many people want to be
> good, but they are so stuck along with
> most other people and can't quite get
> to the point where they are being
> the best they can be.
Being the best you can be is a process, not a
belief. Masonry assists in the process, and
encourages members who had not though in those
terms before joining to do so.
Masonry, among organizations that I have
encountered, puts the most stress on long term
self improvement and the personal excellence
that stress tends to lead to* Note well that
as Masons, we are encouraged to use ourselves
of last year as a measure of how we have
improved ourselves this year. Some do better
at this than others, but some gain is common.
* The US Army's "Be all you can be" program is
much newer than Masonry's. If some Brother
who has been in the Army a long time would care
to compare this aspect of Masonry with the
Army's program, I would be most interested.
Another aspect of this is that we regularly
socialize with others who take the approach of
continual self improvement relative to our own
past, and the trend spreads socailly as well,
by the good influence of good company.
> I would like to know more about joining.
In most states in the US, there are no
invitations. You must ask a Mason to become a
Mason. The buildings are easily found, and
they normally have their meeting hours posted.
Go before a meeting starts, and ask for an
application.
> I developed an interest in esotericism
> while still a teen and yet I don't believe
> in most esoteric things, my beliefs are
> basically Christian.
Everyone has their own definition of what
"esotericism" means, so I don't know what you
mean by this. By some definitions, "esoteric"
simply means that one must be a member to be
told the exact wording of something, and this
is the standard Masonic meaning. Other people
use the word to refer to mystical issues.
Please understand that all religions are
mystical in nature, so if you mean it that
way, you contradict yourself by calling
Christianity non-mystical.
> Yet, I still understand
> that there are greater mysteries of life
> and that there is value in a tradition that
> is passed down from person to person.
This is what our degrees do, pass traditions
down from one person to another.
Doug Freyburger, Pasadena 272, California F&AM
Terry Williams
themselves. your worst enemy is your own writings that leak out.
yousound like a jehovah's witness when you describe jesus. my friend,
jesus is not another god, he is god come in the flesh. what would be so
improper about descussing these things right here?
Terry Williams
temple of religion, and its teachings are the instructions in
religion... this is the true religion revealed to the ancient
patriarchs; which masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it
will continue to teach as long as time endures"
Bill Maddox
213-214 is:
Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are
instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness,
affection, toleration, devotedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy
with those who stiffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the
erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, and Charity. Here, we meet
as brethren, to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each
other gladly, are lenient to each other's faults, regardful of each
other's feelings, ready to relieve each other's wants. This is the true
religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which Masonry has taught for
many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time
feelings, contempt, dislike, hatred, enter here, they are intruders and
not welcome, strangers uninvited, and not guests.
If we are going to disagree - let us disagree in truth. But a think the
disinterested reader will see a world of difference between your quote and
mine.
Bill Maddox
Perfect Union Lodge #10, AF&AM, GL of Texas
Terry Williams wrote:
--
Visit my website and get a FREE demonstration of this online, interactive
tutorial.
http://www.handtech.com/asp/public/handu/default.asp?HOST=maddox and
choose "Try a demo" & tell them "A Hand Consultant" sent you.
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Treeclimbr
Obviously, what we are seeing here
is the same anti-intellectualism that
operates in all the fundamentalisms
of the world and which causes much
hatred and other forms of evil.
You see it in communist China
under Maoism, you see it in Iran
and other Moslem fundamentalist
countries: anywhere where there is
a problem to escape, it is done
by simplification. While I am myself
a Christian, I can recognize the danger
people like "mtw...@webtv.net have
gotten themselves and others into.
For the earth to improve, we need to
overcome tribal religiousity and just
learn to respect others decisions.
KIV11
It is obvious that you have your mind made up about Freemasonry. Why then, did
you ask the question of the Brothers here? Just so that you could attempt to
deny what they are telling you?
Here is the fact, believe it or not, Freemasonry is NOT A RELIGION. Masonry
teaches each Brother to be steadfast in the faith of his conviction. We all
meet on the level, that is why Religion and Politics are forbidden within a
tiled Masonic meeting.
Now I understand that you have an agenda and that agenda does not recognize the
truth about Masonry. Why do you waste our time with your questions when you are
not willing to really hear the truthful answers?
W.'. George F. Kivowitz, 32'
Guiding Light-Olympia Lodge #808
1st Nassau District (Long Island)
Valley of Rockville Centre, NY
Freeport Chapter 302 RAM
Mort Weitman Post #50 Masonic War Veterans
Grand Lodge F&AM, State of NY
KIV11
To answer your ridiculous question, I was a business owner, member of the
community, charitable giver and was born, raised and practicing member of the
Jewish religion. Since being made a Mason I am still a business owner, member
of the community, charitable giver and a practicing member of the Jewish
religion.
You know what's really funny, Jesus Christ was born, raised and died as a
member of the Jewish religion. Are you saying that since Jesus practiced the
same religion as I do, that he was wrong and since I can't accept him as my
personal savior, that I am destined for eternal damnation? I don't think so!
George F. Kivowitz
Eugene Goldman.·.
Before I was a Mason, I was a non-Mason. Nothing else in my life
changed - including my occupation, beliefs, political opinion or
marital status - by virtue of joining the fraternity.
|O| Be well. Travel with a light heart.
Who said that?
Brother Gene .*.
http://www.calodges.org/no442
http://www.blackmountainlodge.net
http://www.freemason.org
MBBFMN #387
And in case I don't see ya' - Good Afternoon, Good Evening and Good Night!
Internet newsgroup posting. Copyright 1999. All rights reserved.
Any Mason may use the contents for any valid Masonic purpose, permission may be granted to others upon request.
SClarke505
V.'.W.'.Sam Schwarzman, PM
Guiding Light/Olympia F&AM #808
South Bay F&AM #1145
Freeport LI Chapter # 302 RAM
Holy Land Chapter #8 RAM (Israel)
Mort Weitman Post # 50 Masonic War Vets
1st Nassau Dist., AGL
GLNY
Terry Williams
alters. bibles or other "books of faith". the weakening of the gospel of
christ, to be on the same level as other faiths, in the name of
tolerance is wrong. i'm sorry my friends you are mistaken. god is not
tolerant in this way. if you can't witness for christ in some place,
because of offending someone, why bother. i am speaking to my christian
brothers. how do you pray away from the lodge? do you pray in jesus'
name then? or do you still pray to the "supreme being".
Terry Williams
everything in the old testament pointed to jesus. everything was a type
of him. he is the way the truth and the life. like i have said before,
bible believing christians love the jewish people. one day they will
come to him as a nation, and realize that it is he whom they have
pierced. everybody must make that decision my friend.
News RoadRunner
lodge, I pray to him while driving.
God is not a person. God is a supernatural being. As such, he is seen in
many different ways. Just because someone was taught a different thign
about God (such as a Buddhist or a Jewist), that does not mean they are
wrong. They believe in God in their own way. They have also just not been
informed of Jesus yet. Ar eyou inplying that Jesus does or will hate these
people just because they do not know about him? That is very forward of you
to think that way.
And, who are you to say that God is not tolerant in this way? Could you
please provide scripture stating as such, as is commonplace over on
forums.crosswalk.com where we post messages that actually are based on fact
and DO contain scripture?
Peace,
-Charles K. Reed, MM
Fellowship #290
Terry Williams <mtw...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27406-37...@newsd-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Terry Williams
if you aren't allowed to name his name? god doesn't hate anyone! he sent
his son to die for mankind (john 3:16) this gospel of the kingdom will
be preached to all the world for a witness and then the end will come.
to the jew, the buddist, the moslem all will have a free choice. the
only way to god is thru jesus. the lord stated that he is a jealous god.
until one comes to jesus, he or she is lost, no matter what they have
learned or believed. one can believe something and be decieved, and be
lost. the bible says that one of the signs of the end times would be
religious compromise. satan has tried from the beginning to combine all
religions into one world religion where everybody's belief is accepted.
god hates this. please listen christian brothers.
Andrew
writes
>On Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:18:37 -0400 (EDT), mtw...@webtv.net (Terry
>Williams) wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>social and divine are two different things. when a man is
>>initiated into masonry, the senior deacon of the lodge describes him as
>>one "who has long been in darkness, and now seeks the light"
>
>candidate is instructed (in the same ceremony) about "receiving light"
>he is told that it is a commemoration (i.e. honoring, remembering)
>the original statement by God when he said "let there be light" (You
>remember God, don't you ? He was that authoritative guy in the
>Old Testament). We are not introducing "new" light here, just
>remembering the same old light.
>>why would any christian allow himself to be described that way? what did
>>jesus say? "then spake jesus againunto them saying, i am the light of
>>the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall
>>have the light of life. (john 8:12) christian brothers, you have no
>>further need of light or revelation on how to be a socially good man, if
>>you have jesus in your life. please think about this. come out and be ye
>>seperate.
>
>heretic here, not the Masons. God said "thou shalt have no gods before
>me". Seems your Jesus is a another God you've added to the list.
>I think you're in trouble. You'd better go back and do some more
>research.
>
>J
It is evident that some people do not know that Masonry is deeply rooted
in Judaism, the old testament; the testament of the God that asked a
father to sacrifice his son to prove that he loved his God more than his
son. What God, acceptable to modern 'educated/emancipated man, dare ask
of any father to sacrifice his son? One has to wonder why the arguments
about a secret fraternity that chooses to remain so. In any democratic
state every one should feel and be free to believe what one feels,
without acting in any way that is to the detriment or harm of any other.
Choice of religion is after all a guaranteed freedom and right. There
ought to be respect for the believes of others, not looking upon them
and or treating them as 'agnostics' and or erratic followers of presumed
wrong teachings and or dogmas. When preaching does not match practices
(as we question on our web-site) then the question arises:- "If one is
a member of a secret society but is known to be of a particular
religious following and or teaching (as many Masons freely admit) it is
the religious background of the person that is considered and not the
undisclosed membership of any other 'organisation/fraternity; and this
remains an area that has to be considered by the 'fraternity' without
hesitation because the average human is no longer an 'illiterate
ignoramus and must not be treated as such.
--
Andrew
Christopher Harris
many of us Freemasons are Christians.
Chris Harris
McDonald Lodge # 324 AF & AM Independence, Missouri
(Junior Warden & Education Officer)
York Rite RAM RSM KT; York Rite College; 32° AASR (SJ); Order of True Kindred,
Shrine; Highlander Clan # 1. Hillbilly Clan # 124; O.R.C.O.M.O.T. Shrine Club.
Christopher Harris
We never said that Freemasonry is not religious. It IS religious, but it is
NOT a religion. There is a difference.
>the weakening of the gospel of
>christ, to be on the same level as other faiths
We are NOT a Christian organization, but an organization that allows members of
any faith that believes in God (just like many other fraternal organizations).
We do not say that the Bible is equal to any other Holy Book of Religion. But
for Christians it is the Ultimate book of Faith and practice, for the Muslim it
is the Koran, and for the Jew it is the talmud and holy Scripture of the Old
Testament. Now if a brother of the Christian faith wishes to share is beliefs
to another Mason outside of lodge (since discussing religion and politics is
forbidden during a meeting) he is free to do so.
>how do you pray away from the lodge? do you pray in jesus'
>name then? or do you still pray to the "supreme being".
I pray in Jesus name in and out of the lodge. My prayers are silent and private
to myself. The Chaplain offers the public prayers, I do it privately and I am
sure every brother does as well.
Why are you not tolerant of others beliefs? I do not agree with some of my
Muslim or Hindu or Jewish brothers religous beliefs but I still respect them as
men, brothers and am proud to call them my friends. In your world, are the
only people who practice charity Christian? There are more out there that are
not Christians and do more Charity and show Christian virtues than many
Christians.
Chris Harris, MPS
Christopher Harris
>and when they come into the lodge, how would they learn of jesus there
>if you aren't allowed to name his name?
Excuse me! Lodge is not set up for the Evangelizing of persons. It is not a
Christian organization. It is a secular organization with membership
requirements. 1. A belief in God 2. A belief in Eternal Life.
As I posted before, masons are forbidden to discuss religon and politics during
meetings. One can witness to another about beliefs outside of the meeting.
There is a proper time and place for everything.
Chris Harris
Eugene Goldman.·.
Williams) wrote:
*how can it not be "religious" when you pray to the supreme being. have
*alters. bibles or other "books of faith". the weakening of the gospel of
*christ, to be on the same level as other faiths, in the name of
*tolerance is wrong. i'm sorry my friends you are mistaken. god is not
*tolerant in this way. if you can't witness for christ in some place,
*because of offending someone, why bother.
Then I presume you do not shop, go to movies, or have a job?
*i am speaking to my christian
*brothers. how do you pray away from the lodge? do you pray in jesus'
*name then? or do you still pray to the "supreme being".
Do you not believe Jesus to be that Supreme Being? How odd. I
thought you said you were Christian.
Who do you believe Jesus was?
Terry Williams
works are not enough. we are saved by grace through faith and that not
of yourselves, it is the gift of god; not of works lest any man should
boast. all the kindness and charity in the world will never earn our
way. and will never be some kind of covering in the judgement. jesus is
the only way!
Bill Bleasdale
Treeclimbr wrote:
> I'm curious what people believed before they were Masons.
>
> ___________________
> Robert Pearson
> Creative Virtue: http://www.eskimo.com/~telical/
> ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net/
--
Web Page; http://www.npiec.on.ca/~williamb/
Fax; 1-905-894-1875
E-mail; wblea...@geocities.com (Bill)
E-mail; nblea...@geocities.com (Nancy)
Doug Freyburger
>
> how can it not be "religious" when you pray to the supreme being.
This is the same old excuse used by Antis to claim that Masonry
is a religion. Requiring members to have religion makes
Masonry 'religious', but it does NOT make it a religion. You
can define religion any way you want, but redefining to make
Masonry a religion is deception. You may as well call Masonry
a pizza.
> the weakening of the gospel of christ, to be on the same level
> as other faiths, in the name of tolerance is wrong.
I agree to disagree with you on this subject. I will tolerate
anyone who is tolerant. I will be intolerant of anyone who is
intolerant.
> if you can't witness for christ in some place, because of
> offending someone, why bother.
I am glad to see that you agree that people should not witness
where it is not welcome. This newsgroup is one such place. I
apologize for the off-topic nature of this paragraph.
> how do you pray away from the lodge? do you pray in jesus'
> name then? or do you still pray to the "supreme being".
Now this is a sticking point. I have seen people pray to
Christ. Do you object to that? Consider carefully! Christ
is not a name, it is a title, just as Great Architect Of The
Universe is a title. I have seen people pray to God. Do
you object to that? Consider carefully! God is not a name,
it is a title, just as GAOTU is a title.
The claim that Christians praying to the GAOTU are praying
to some diety other than the Christian God is wrong, foolish
and deceptive. Someone smart enough to post on a newsgroup
can hardly be so stupid as the think that "Mr President"
means something different than "Mr Clinton" when talking to
that one specific president, so they can hardly be so stupid
as to think that using a general purpose title like GAOTU
means something different than using a specific name.
Doug Freyburger Pasadena 272 California F&AM
Garrett Fitzgerald
> satan has tried from the beginning to combine all
> religions into one world religion where everybody's belief is accepted.
> god hates this.
And they've both told you this personally? Funny, I can't remember seeing
anything in the Bible about the tempter (literal translation of Satan)
trying to combine religions. I'll bet you think that the devil's name is
Lucifer, too.....
Russ Bonchu
reference to god, religion, conversion, or acceptance of religious or other
principles. All it says is that the initiate outside has not been explained
the principles (in darkness) and is waitting to be clued in (brought to the
light). This is a very common metaphor, not always having to do with
religion.
Do you have any facts or quotes that actually claim Masonry to be a
religion?
--
------------------------------
Russell Bonchu, III
klje...@usa.net
russb...@earthlink.net
Mt. Ararat Lodge #44
A Mason, and Proud of it!
Terry Williams <mtw...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:391-378...@newsd-251.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> from manual of the lodge. "there he
> stands without our portals, on the threshold of this new masonic life,
> in darkness, helplessness and in ignorance. having been wandering amid
> the errors and covered over with the pollutions of the outer and profane
> world, he comes inquiringly to our doors, seeking the new birth, and
> asking a withdrawal of the veil which conceals divine truth from his
> uninitiated sight. MANUAL OF THE LODGE. sounds religious to me.
> social and divine are two different things. when a man is
> initiated into masonry, the senior deacon of the lodge describes him as
> one "who has long been in darkness, and now seeks the light"