Something missing
necro
missing a vital ingredient. I can't put a name on it, but I would say it
would be what Chi Sau means to Wing Chun.
I have been training in Wing Chun for a short period of time, but already I
can see how vital chi sau is. It teaches you structure, reflexes, reactions,
speed, etc.., I can't think of anything TKD has to offer.
Maybe two things could suddenly appear in your minds that would make up for
this absence, Set Sparring and Sparring.
Set Sparring - is set, so it is dead, no realism.
Sparring - sport, no realism, I am talking about attacks of shin kicks,
groin kicks, hooks, head butts. What your common thug gets up to.
My club is half a year old, apart from two of the members, the highest
member there is a yellow belt (next grading is in two weeks time, just
before Christmas). So I am considering putting together some partner, attack
defend drills using TKD techniques. And not just an attack using a straight
punch, you call that self defence?! Who attacks with a straight punch, I
know when I have been previously attacked it came in the form of brawling
hooks, swings.
When they get a belt or more higher I am considering introducing a light
realistic (as close as I can) spar, all techniques allowed, any section, as
long as fists, finger tips and feet don't actually make serious contact. i.e
Go in for a punch to the face, but just tap with the fingers to point out
that you could have made lethal contact.
I would say one person attacks, then the other defends who then has to
counter. The attacker must then counter the defenders attacker, then the
defender must counter etc.., and on and on. Just to get students
experimenting what they can do with each technique, and how to use it in
certain situations.
I love to experiment with my techniques, some unusual ones come to mind too.
A low knife hand block? Someone comes in to hook (call it an upper cut if
you want) in an upward motion to your stomach. You block the attack, but as
the attackers motion and energy is driving upwards, after deflecting and
twisting your body out of the way, travel with the punch, slide underneath
the arm and if the body is open (otherwise use a different attack) come up
under the chin with a palm strike, or knife hand to the throat.
What do you think? Quite a bit of work needs to go into it, the student will
have to be confident in using his TKD techniques as well, that is why I
would only experiment with this exercise when they have some firm roots in
the MA.
::necro::
PMDavis
extensive training in TKD self defense that includes low kicks, sweeps,
takedowns, a full compliment of hook punchs, and ground fighting. Certainly
full contact sparring (seriously going for the 10 second knockout) teaches
effective distancing, attacks, reactions, speed and discipline. Naturally
that sort of curriculum would not be appropriate in a generalized school for
kids. It also has limitations for women and anyone else not in peak
physical condition, or who is concerned about a chance of injury. But it's
very much a part of Ohdahkwan (military style) Taekwondo training as used by
the ROK military and US special forces.
The risk with that approach is a disintegration of clean style development
by attempting to overpower an opponent. Philosophically it's best to focus
on good technique and style development for several years, and then
introducing effective self defense techniques only after several years of
training, maybe black belt level.
necro wrote in message <9181fk$rlc$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>...
Bill
>Through my teaching and training experience, I have found that TKD is
>missing a vital ingredient. I can't put a name on it, but I would say it
>would be what Chi Sau means to Wing Chun.
>
>I have been training in Wing Chun for a short period of time, but already I
>can see how vital chi sau is. It teaches you structure, reflexes, reactions,
>speed, etc.., I can't think of anything TKD has to offer.
Hi Necro,
Without initiating the circle boosters of defense I would like to
respond. So I will be as politically friendly as possible.
TKD is as best linear in action and a hard style.
In it's realm can be effective in the hands of the physically gifted
or blessed athlete. But they would have been good at whatever they
would have chosen.
That aside. The sticky hand drills and balance displacement, is not
there, Many TKD players have been working at filling these gaps
being required by a more martially educated student.
>
>Maybe two things could suddenly appear in your minds that would make up for
>this absence, Set Sparring and Sparring.
>
>Set Sparring - is set, so it is dead, no realism.
>Sparring - sport, no realism, I am talking about attacks of shin kicks,
>groin kicks, hooks, head butts. What your common thug gets up to.
>
>My club is half a year old, apart from two of the members, the highest
>member there is a yellow belt (next grading is in two weeks time, just
>before Christmas). So I am considering putting together some partner, attack
>defend drills using TKD techniques. And not just an attack using a straight
>punch, you call that self defence?! Who attacks with a straight punch, I
>know when I have been previously attacked it came in the form of brawling
>hooks, swings.
A suggestion, would be to begin with sets of initiated body mechanics
to intercept and neutralize given sets of attacks with the below using
entrance techniques followed by checks, Checks being the follow up
response or interfering with the ability of your opponent to launch
continuing attacks. We use the end goal of finishing by putting the
enemy to the ground. Usually in a destructive manner <g>
The checks can be a simple as a parry then cover the other limb with a
preemptive touch to start with.
>
>When they get a belt or more higher I am considering introducing a light
>realistic (as close as I can) spar, all techniques allowed, any section, as
>long as fists, finger tips and feet don't actually make serious contact. i.e
>Go in for a punch to the face, but just tap with the fingers to point out
>that you could have made lethal contact.
>I would say one person attacks, then the other defends who then has to
>counter. The attacker must then counter the defenders attacker, then the
>defender must counter etc.., and on and on. Just to get students
>experimenting what they can do with each technique, and how to use it in
>certain situations
.
This is good stuff, We use a progressive set of trapping drills
starting from a very simple set to a complex set while in motion.
We also use what I call surrender sparring. The attacker launches an
attack and the defender reacts with realistic intent. Resistance once
the defender starts is minimal due to the destructive nature of the
responses. The object is to attack the weapons, (hands, feet,whatever)
on the way in, then move to the head(for disorientation)and body as we
take the balance. During this we refine the amount of destruction and
available actions of movements to cause injury and pain.
Communication is important between partners at this time, to let each
other know they point of success at application, where it was not so
successful etc. They would be looking at which point and the speed the
attack was neutralized and control was lost by the attacker.
>
>I love to experiment with my techniques, some unusual ones come to mind too.
>A low knife hand block? Someone comes in to hook (call it an upper cut if
>you want) in an upward motion to your stomach. You block the attack, but as
>the attackers motion and energy is driving upwards, after deflecting and
>twisting your body out of the way, travel with the punch, slide underneath
>the arm and if the body is open (otherwise use a different attack) come up
>under the chin with a palm strike, or knife hand to the throat.
>
>What do you think? Quite a bit of work needs to go into it, the student will
>have to be confident in using his TKD techniques as well, that is why I
>would only experiment with this exercise when they have some firm roots in
>the MA.
>
>::necro::
I like your theories, You can actually start students in this from the
beginning with trapping drills and simple technique drills that expand
as they progress. Small sets as they progress. It is harder to develop
the relaxed, circular, yielding actions once the hard linear power is
firmly in place. Kinda like teaching an old dog new tricks, to many
other habits to deal with.
Good Luck,
Regards,
Bill
Carlucci
punch. But you gotta learn to crawl before you can walk, right?
So for most colour belt students, dealing with the straight on punch is a
good start. At black belt, though, you often find more 'realistic' self
defense drills. Some do still deal with the straight punch, but others also
deal with knives and other types of attacks.
One defense in particular that my master showed us one night is FINALLY a
defense against all of those grappling fools that like to talk shit:
When an attacker makes a dive for your legs, slide back and stick your butt
out as far as possible, allowing your upper body to learn forward, and
getting your legs out of their grasping range. At the same time, intercept
their shoulders with your hands, in a short of blocking/pushing motion, that
also grabs at the same time. Then, use a knee to smash into their face,
while grasping pressure points around the neck with boths hands and getting
a bit of a grip around the collar bone to force the head down towards your
knee for added force.
Nasty, but you'd be surprised at how easy it is. (I probably didn't type it
well enough for you guys to understand fully, but I'm thinking you all get
the jist, right?)
He's also showed us some good stuff for dealing with those hooking punches.
This stuff is harder to type than to show, so I'm not gonna mess with
confusing anybody. Bottom line, though, is that it's simple and effective.
The fact of the matter is that the self defense techniques are there. TKD
has more than enough techniques to deal with just about any situation. It's
just that it's sometimes difficult to see how they can be applied. The knee,
for instance, is not often described as a TKD weapon, because it is illegal
in sparring. HOWEVER, every kick begins with a raising of the bent leg, with
the knee out in front!!! The technique is sort of "hidden" within the
others. Some schools teach knees, I'm sure; in fact, there is a
knee-sequence in Tae Guek Chil Jhang. But most TKD schools won't actually
teach the knee itself as an entirely seperate weapon, when in fact it is.
You can find a LOT of practical self defense in the forms of TKD. It may not
seem so when you first watch them, but when you break it down and ask
yourself what you might be doing, then you'll find some pretty, well,
"interesting" answers. Look at Koryo for instance. Spend a few hours
dissecting that form, and tell me there's nothing "down-&-dirty" about
TKD...
Luc...@prodigy.net
If you want to be a winner, all you have to give is everything you've got.
Paul Dunphy
Paul
"necro" <ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9181fk$rlc$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
Wade Smith
1. Body conditioning
2. Forms (basics, history, art, & spirit)
3. Kick training
4. Punch training
5. Blocks
6. Breaks (confidence in power)
7. 1 step sparring (reactions to an enemy focus)
8. 3 step sparring (combination responses to an enemy focus)
9. seft defense tactics (breaking holds, throws, falls, rolls, and basic
graph)
10. Sparring (live action with many unknowns)
"necro" <ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9181fk$rlc$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
Bill
<pdun...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
>Ever heard of Chung Do Kwan? Obviously not.
>
>Paul
>
The depth of your contribution is amazing.
Such witty sarcasm that says so much!
Bill
Linda
anything else...
Enough said. Sometimes saying alot just makes a person sound long-winded,
and senseless...
Linda
Signature Linda R TKDcollege www.homestead.com/leestkdcollege Site
Founder --------------------------------------------------------------------
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"Bill" <perk...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:3a3831fa...@news.compuserve.com...
necro
>If you study Chung Do Kwan TKD, then you know that he doesn't need to say
>anything else...
>
>Enough said. Sometimes saying alot just makes a person sound long-winded,
>and senseless...
>
Nope. Sorry Linda, Bill's reply was correct, Paul Dunphy's comment sounded
very "my art is better then your art," not contributing what so ever.
I asked what people thought of my idea, trying actually to help develop the
MA world, only to have a "oh from the sounds of it you are studying the
wrong style, you should study mine" comment, which really helps no one, does
it?
::necro::
necro
>anything else...
>
>Enough said. Sometimes saying alot just makes a person sound long-winded,
>and senseless...
>
Nope. Sorry Linda, Bill's reply was correct, Paul Dunphy's comment sounded
necro
>anything else...
>
>Enough said. Sometimes saying alot just makes a person sound long-winded,
>and senseless...
>
Nope. Sorry Linda, Bill's reply was correct, Paul Dunphy's comment sounded
Linda
wrong for pursuing what you feel is the right path for yourself....
And as far as that goes, I think that most people in most organizations of
TKD feel that their art is fine without making any changes to it....
But if that is the path you pursue, we wish you all the luck.
Linda
Signature Linda R TKDcollege www.homestead.com/leestkdcollege Site
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"necro" <ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:91a7ca$5oc$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
Seeker
what you're describing, but a lot of it that I teach my students I just
brought in when I felt it appropriate. I felt that my students (living in a
somewhat nasty area of my neck of the woods) needed to know some low down
dirty tricks sooner rather than later!
No style is better than any other, and I think Chung Do Kwan is often guilty
of doing this *we're better than the rest* thing. I just think that you
can't say this if you haven't seen the rest for real, and I've certainly
discovered plenty of weaknesses in CDK too. Don't get me wrong, I'm
fiercely loyal to my organisation, but I still think we should value what
others have to offer. Lose the judging, guys...
Necro, sounds like you've found an interesting track to follow. I say give
it a go. Set it up correctly, emphasise the dangers and so on, and let them
try. If it doesn't work, it was still a learning experience (for you and
them), and if it does, it will improve their self defence immensely (my
students loved it and work much better for it, as well as being able to face
their neighbourhood a little better prepared).
Let us know how it goes...
...Jamie
No offence meant to anyone, I'm sick of the politics...
"Carlucci" <Luc...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:918ljt$fkqu$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Paul Dunphy
respective value. Basically the point I was trying to make is that we do
practice the scenarios you were describing as deficient in your own craft.
Sorry if I came off a little harsh. Take it easy and good luck with your
studies.
Paul
"necro" <ne...@earendil.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
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