WTF
jpein
My son has just began taking TKD lessons, at a local
school, they belong to the WTF.
Is there a good site on the net that I can find examples of the katas or
forms, from start to finish. Of course of first concern would be for the
yellow belt.
Thank you in advance.
Brian
Casper
For T.K.D it is pomse not Kata, Kata is Karate. Sorry can,t help you
with the web site, The branch instructor should have them some where
to show you or for you to photo copy
Jere Hilland
are looking for is at http://webpages.marshall.edu/~shroyer1/tkd/ , you can
also check out the WTF at
http://www.worldsport.com/worldsport/sports/taekwondo/home.html
The ITF folks call it Hyung, in WTF we call it Poomse.
If they are speaking Japanese in a Korean dojang something is seriously
wrong, but I hope this helps. If you need any more information please feel
free to write me directly.
Jere Hilland Sabum
http://www.flash.net/~hinchley/hapkido/hapkido.htm
http://wwp.mirabilis.com/6423263
Schwerpunkt
> If they are speaking Japanese in a Korean dojang something is seriously
> wrong.
Why on earth would that be? TKD is rooted in Japanese Karate. Shows a
refreshing respect, rather than the typical non sequiturs about Koreanized
Shotokan Karate.
J.---
Jere Hilland
for details. Taekowndo has its roots in Hanguk mudo. Not Japanese anything.
Anyone who uses Japanese terminology in a Hanguk dojang is seriously
confused. You will also find some good threads on detailed discussion of the
kwans that formed taekwondo.
Kismet
Jere Hilland wrote:
> Taekowndo has its roots in Hanguk mudo. Not Japanese anything.
> Anyone who uses Japanese terminology in a Hanguk dojang is seriously
> confused.
Really?
Jere Hilland
Yes, really, all students should study as much history and culture as they
can if they are truely interested in the study of mudo...
T. Arthur Wheeler
----------
> Taekowndo has its roots in Hanguk mudo. Not Japanese anything.
> Anyone who uses Japanese terminology in a Hanguk dojang is seriously
> confused.
- - - - - - - - -
I'm confused. I have sources that say Taekwondo DID derive from
Japanese/Okinawan roots. Also, if Taekwondo has no roots in Japanese karate,
why do Taekwondo's early forms (historically speaking) correspond to the
Shorin-Ryu/Shotokan forms?
Art Wheeler
McGozer
>
>I'm confused. I have sources that say Taekwondo DID derive from
>Japanese/Okinawan roots. Also, if Taekwondo has no roots in Japanese
karate,
>why do Taekwondo's early forms (historically speaking) correspond to the
>Shorin-Ryu/Shotokan forms?
General Choi Hong-Hi held a 2nd degree black belt in Shotokan when he
developed TKD, thus he incorporated some of that knowledge in the basics of
the new art.
Kevdow
Korean Karate: The art of Tae Kwon Do by Duk Sung Son.
He is one of the four founders of the term TAE KWON DO
CalChulho
started...please get your facts straight
wha...@my-dejanews.com
calc...@aol.com (CalChulho) wrote:
> oh my...this is pretty sad. tkd started LONG before even karate
> started...please get your facts straight
>
So should you. TKD as it is today started in the late 40's early 50's. Not
a moment before. There were earlier styles that were incorporated into TKD,
just as earlier forms of fighting were incorporated into Karate. But, karate
came about in the late 1800's early 1900's and TKD after WW2. Fact, live with
it.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
John A. Wielmaker
McGozer wrote:
Right, what we think are TKD's 'unique' emphases (high flashy kicks and lots of
tourney
point-sparring) evolved in the U.S. tourney circuit in the 1960s. Choi hong-hi
(BTW, he is NOT a 'General', as he lost his honorary retired General Officer's
rank when he disgraced himself with the DPRK) more than incorporated 'some' of
that knowledge into his variant of Koreanized
Shotokan karate----he plagiarized practically ALL the ITF's fundamental
movements and even in Choi's 1965 text _Tae Kwon Do_ a whole chapter is
devoted to karate forms.
Many factors went into this conscious development of what is basically a
blatant lie re TKD's 'Korean' pedigree. Americans tend to believe the lie
because 1) they do not care about such historical minutiae, 2) they do not
know about such historical minutiae or 3) they choose to believe the official
Korean spin.
CalChulho
last century? no... it has a long and rich history. but we do not say that
english started this late, because there's more history to its development than
that.
you're right in that tkd was "officialized" and greatly studied during the mid
1900s. however, it does not mean that's when tkd started.
tkd has long and rich history as well...well, before the koryo dynasty. of
course, it was called differently then... but tkd's roots lies in those
ancient korean forms, not japanese.
this is a controversial topic. but i believe it was discovered in korea (in a
cave somewhere) that an ancient painting of korean kings and such practicing
movements that remarkably resembled the forms of tkd today. i think the
painting was dated in B.C. years.
of course, i do not study paintings or forensics and i have not seen it for
myself, but there are many texts out there. we're all probably saying all this
based on our own research.
where did kung fu come from? is it chinese? well, not really... because kung
fu's roots are not from china...it's in india. so it all matters how you look
at it.
oh, you're also right in that there was japanese influence in modern tkd...
when the japanese occupied korea... but influence is different than where it's
originally from.
you could say that i'm influenced by America. But that doesn't make me say
that i'm from America. I'm from korea. my roots and culture is korean, even
with influence of America.
James Mau
>cave somewhere) that an ancient painting of korean kings and such practicing
>movements that remarkably resembled the forms of tkd today. i think the
>painting was dated in B.C. years.
>
>of course, i do not study paintings or forensics and i have not seen it for
>myself, but there are many texts out there. we're all probably saying all
>this
>based on our own research.
>
>where did kung fu come from? is it chinese? well, not really... because
>kung
>fu's roots are not from china...it's in india. so it all matters how you
>look
>at it.
>
>oh, you're also right in that there was japanese influence in modern
Some people are funny, they try their best not to admit their martial arts are
copied or influenced by the other arts. The tkd is no doubt the offspring of
karate, but they refuse to admit that because of their pride I guess.
During the hundred years of occupation of Japan, the Korean people must learnt
and spoke Japanese. They went to Japan to study or work, and they learnt lots
of new things including the martial arts from the Japanese.
When you look at tkd, it is almost no different from the karate,and they even
wear the same uniforms as the Japanese. Probably that's why
the wtf change the neck to V shape and make it looks more like korean.
They also brought kendo back to Korea and they call it kumdo. On the
advertisement of some martial arts magazines, they don't even feel shame to
call it the ancient Korean sword art while they are wearing the traditional
Japanese kendo uniforms, using the traditional Japanese samurai swords. When
you look at the Korean history books, the ancient Korean warriors carried and
used the
Chinese swords and weapons. They even dressed like the chinese. So, how could a
chinese look a like solder using a japanese samurai sword, it is just
ridiculous.
I don't see those figures which were found in the cave resembled the tkd at
all. Also those figures can be found,usually in the temples or in some very old
chinese houses any where in China Does it mean the tkd is from China too?
They claim Tang Soo Do is Korean art, but to me it is just another stepchild of
karate. Don't forget,in chinese,Tang Soo means Chinese Hand which exactly what
karate means before they change the name from Tate to karate.
James Mau
>a moment before. There were earlier styles that were incorporated into TKD,
>just as earlier forms of fighting were incorporated into Karate. But, karate
>came about in the late 1800's early 1900's and TKD after WW2. Fact, live with
>it.
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
>
>
>
>
>
>
I am totally agree with you.
Slide
CalChulho wrote in message <19990123155510...@ng-fv1.aol.com>...
>this is a controversial topic. but i believe it was discovered in korea
(in a
>cave somewhere) that an ancient painting of korean kings and such
practicing
>movements that remarkably resembled the forms of tkd today. i think the
>painting was dated in B.C. years.
>
>of course, i do not study paintings or forensics and i have not seen it
for
>myself, but there are many texts out there.
Like General Choi's authoritative text "Taekwon-do". Which is rather ironic
given the subject of this discussion.
Stuart.
CalChulho
John A. Wielmaker
CalChulho wrote:
> an analogy : when did the language of english come about? just this century?
> last century? no... it has a long and rich history. but we do not say that
> english started this late, because there's more history to its development than
> that.
>
CalChulho, I completely understand what you're saying; and I respect that. To call
a wide swathe of the TKD world a plagiarism is really rough. But I still must say
the point is not really subject to further controversy. Research already done
shows a very, very clear lineage for 'TKD' deriving preponderantly from Japanese
karate. Native Korean forms (Subak & Taekkyon) were largely gone by the early 20th
century--Subak was completely gone by the Japanese occupation. Taekkyon barely
survived in the streets and is now reflourishing in Korea, but is severely divided
between two Taekyyon federations. Both federations disavow that what they do is
linked historically to TKD, esp. ITF TKD.
I'd urge you to read several articles specifically dealing with the history of
TKD and Taekkyon in the _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_ ('JAMA'). They are:
1) JAMA, v. 3, n.1, 1994 "Notes on the Development of Korean
Martial Sports..."
2) JAMA, v. 2, n.2, 1993 "The History and Development of Tae Kyon"
3) JAMA, v. 6, n.4, 1997 "The Elevation of Taekkyon from Folk Game
to Martial Art"
4) JAMA, v.6, n.1, 1997 "People and Events of Taekwondo's
Formative Years"
Good luck,
John
John A. Wielmaker
CalChulho wrote:
> oh my...this is pretty sad. tkd started LONG before even karate
> started...please get your facts straight
This is mythlogy; something that's been already researched and the topic
is largely confined to exactly how much did Choi, et al. copy karate?
75%? !00%
Let me paste my earlier suggestion to you:
I'd urge you to read several articles specifically dealing with the
history of
TKD and Taekkyon in the _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_ ('JAMA'). They
are:
1) JAMA, v. 3, n.1, 1994 "Notes on the Development of Korean
Martial Sports..."
2) JAMA, v. 2, n.2, 1993 "The History and Development of Tae
Kyon"
3) JAMA, v. 6, n.4, 1997 "The Elevation of Taekkyon from Folk
Game
to Martial Art"
4) JAMA, v.6, n.1, 1997 "People and Events of Taekwondo's
Formative Years"
John
John A. Wielmaker
James Mau wrote:
Ditto, seconded, whatever.
John A. Wielmaker
James Mau wrote:
> > So should you. TKD as it is today started in the late 40's early 50's. Not
> >a moment before. There were earlier styles that were incorporated into TKD,
> >just as earlier forms of fighting were incorporated into Karate. But, karate
> >came about in the late 1800's early 1900's and TKD after WW2. Fact, live with
> >it.
> >
>
John A. Wielmaker
James Mau wrote:
> Some people are funny, they try their best not to admit their martial arts are
> copied or influenced by the other arts. The tkd is no doubt the offspring of
> karate, but they refuse to admit that because of their pride I guess.
> During the hundred years of occupation of Japan, the Korean people must learnt
> and spoke Japanese. They went to Japan to study or work, and they learnt lots
> of new things including the martial arts from the Japanese.
Uh, look at me knitpic, but the occupation (1905 or 8 - 1945) wasn't 100 years.
Long enough, though, to have many Koreans absorb Japanese-Okinawan-Chinese styles!
> They also brought kendo back to Korea and they call it kumdo. On the
> advertisement of some martial arts magazines, they don't even feel shame to
> call it the ancient Korean sword art while they are wearing the traditional
> Japanese kendo uniforms, using the traditional Japanese samurai swords. When
> you look at the Korean history books, the ancient Korean warriors carried and
> used the
> Chinese swords and weapons. They even dressed like the chinese. So, how could a
> chinese look a like solder using a japanese samurai sword, it is just
> ridiculous.
The big issue that all non-Chinese Asians have re MA (or anything else) is the
profound influence China had upon all East Asian peoples. I had a long discussion
with a guy ('zark') in rec.sports.martial-arts on exactly this point.
>
>
> I don't see those figures which were found in the cave resembled the tkd at
> all. Also those figures can be found,usually in the temples or in some very old
> chinese houses any where in China Does it mean the tkd is from China too?
Those 'figures' could be doing Broadway Showgirl Dancing for all we know!!!!
>
Zojiroshi
newletter about the origin of Taekwondo. I have also voiced my opinion, and I
wish to further explain my view. I hope as critics and martial artists, you
will take the time to read this email.
"International Council on Martial Arts Education (ICMAE) is a non-profit,
professional teaching organization founded in 1978 by high ranking martial arts
educators... The council is dedicated to the development and promotion of
martial arts education... building a spirit of friendship and cooperation among
all martial artists... One of the functions of the Council is to design and
promote seminars on such topics as martial arts history and philosophy..."
Please note the last line. This Council helped publish the book, "Tae Kwon Do
Forms, Complete & Official Forms of The World TaeKwonDo Federation". This book
contains a chapter which dedicates itself to explaining the history of
Taekwondo. This chapter includes footnotes from,
Kim, Un Yong. Tae Kwon Do Korea Background Series...
Yurochka, John, Tae Kwon Do, An Ancient Art in a Modern World...
Kim, D.S., Leland, Tom. Karate.
I would actually like to type out some of the most important points mentioned
in this chapter. Please excuse my spelling errors. As you can tell, i take
great interest in this topic. I do have pride in my country, however, that is
not the reason why I firmly believe that Taekwondo has its roots in Korea. I
am part Japanese actually, although I was born and raised in Korea during my
youth.
If you disagree now, you probably won't be convinced of the following.
However, please do read on for educational purposes, for I have learned much
from your comments as well. Oh thank you by the way "publius". Your response
was EXTREMELY appreciated. I will actually try to find those articles you
mentioned.
This is not arguing (although at times I feel like I am). We all love the art.
And I want to learn from you, and I also want to share my knowledge with you.
I hope we all learned something from our exchange of ideas and knowledge.
Please view the following document. It's fairly long. I took time to type
this out to share this with you, so I hope you take only fraction of the time
it took me to type, and read this. Thank you.
ok...i couldn't send the email to some people...so i'll see if i can post it
here. it might be too large, but let me try.
"History of Tae Kwon Do"
Tae Kwon Do, a distinctly Korean martial art, has an interesting history which
spans several thousands of years. Tae Kwon Do has been practiced as a sport
and as a martial art since its inception. The Study of Tae Kwon Do not only
imporves one's physical fitness and health but also employs as its highest goal
inner peace and serenity. The lengthy history of Tae Kwon Do, and its
association with the principles of Zen Buddism, are relfected in the basic
forms and skills of this combination of healthful sport and mental discipline.
The evolution of Tae Kwon Do from its origin as a martial art and sport in a
relatively small Asian country to its present day world wide popularity is
involved and acomplex. It is the purpose of this article to describe the
influences of Korean history on the development of Tae Kwon Do over a span of
millennia, to its position today as an internationally acclaimed martial art.
The origin of Tae Kwon Do is obscured by four thousand years of Korean
history. In its earliest form, it was probably practiced as a means of
protection from the attacts of wild animals. Since these attacts could
originate from any direction, a series of self-defense movements was developed
that allowed one to instantly and reflexively defend himself from any possible
attack. Specific stylized patterns were formed for instinctive self-defense,
and these patterns became a system of blocks, kicks and punches that was the
ancestor of today's modern Tae Kwon Do.
There has been some speculation that Tae Kwon Do is not indigenous to Korea,
but is a synthesis of martial arts from China and other Asian countries. The
evidence, however, does not support this conclusion. The legendary orgins of
the Eastern martial arts are, as a rule, ascribed to a Buddhist monk from
India, Bodhidharma. According to the legend and Chan Buddhist texts,
Bodhidarma came to China in the sixth century A.D.. He founded a monastery at
Shaolin-So where he began to teach special techniques of breath control and
meditation. His followers were physcially incapable of practicing the strenous
techniques.
So Bodhiharma taught them methods of strengthening their bodies and at the
same time, their spirit. These methods later combined with the principles of
the I-Ching and Taosim, formed the basis for the Chinese martial arts forms of
Kung Fu, Kempo and Tai Chi Chuan.
In Korea, the first tangible evidence of martial art form taht resembles
modern Tae Kwon Do dates from the Three Kingdoms period. A mural painted on
the wall of a tomb which was built in the kingdom of Koguryo (37 B.C. - 66
A.D.) locatd in southern Manchuria (N. Korea) clearly shows "two youths engaged
in Tae Kwon Do sparring." Since the Myung-Chong tomb is located in Tunsko,
capital of Koguryo from 3 A.D. until 427 A.D., the evidence indicates that
Koreans were developing a native martial art form long before Bohidharma
arrived in China. The tomb mural shows one man in the left forward stance
protcting his midsection with his left hand in the left forward position while
his sparring partner is an attcking position with his left hand outstretched.
Both of these positions correspond closely to movements used in modern Tae Kwon
Do sparring. Since the tomb mural has been dated between 3 A.D. and 427 A.D.,
"It can be safely said that Tae Kwon Do was known by this time at the latest."
(my little note...this footnote is from Dr. Un Young Kim's book.)
Further evidence that Tae Kwon Do has been long practiced in Korea as a sport
as well as a martial art form has been found in another tomb of the Koguryo
period. A mural painted on the wall of this romb depicts a man in a drill suit
with a belt around the waist, much like the modern belted doboks (or practice
uniforms) used by modern students of Tae Kwon Do. The figure in the tomb
painting is posed in a pattern using his left hand is used to protect his head
with an overhand block. Both blocks are used in modern Tae Kwon Do forms and
sparring.
In the kingdom of Paekje (18 B.C. - 600 A.D.), which was located along the Han
river in southwestern Korea, martial arts were sponsored by the Paekje kings.
The ancient records show that horseback riding, archery, and bare handed
fighting arts were very popular among both the military men and common people
of this era. Records which have survived from this time "have it that in
ancient days there was a self defense art using both the arms and legs." The
fact that unarmed combat skills were practiced by the common people as well as
by military men emphasises again the body building/sport aspect that has
charcterized Korean martial art forms since their inception. The records from
Paekje offer more evidence that Tae Kwon Do is a native Korean form, handed
down from the earliest recorded eras in Korea's history
It was in the kingdom of Silla (57 B.C. - 936 A.D.) which existed along the
southeastern portion of the jKorean peninsula, that the Korean martial art
forms reached their highest level yet. Silla unified the Three Kingdoms and,
after taking over paekje in 668 A.D. and Koguryo in 670 A.D., held contorl for
three centuries. A military, educational and social organization started by
King Jin Heung, and kown as the Haw Rang Do, played a major role in the
unifying of the Three Kingdoms. The Hwa RAnd Do was made up of youths of noble
families, devoted to cultivating mind and body in order to better serve Silla.
The Martial spirit represented by the Hwa Rang Do "become the root of Sillas'
national morality and strength." The followed a code of honor comprised of
rigid loyalty to the nation, respect and obedience to one's partens, unswerving
loyalty to friends, courage in battle and prudence on using violence or taking
life. This code of honor remains the philosophical backbone of the Korean
martial arts even today. the Hwa Rang Do trained in all forms of martial
skills, incluing an unarmed fighting form known as Soo Bak, which they refined
into a highly effective series of cambative movements. In addition to
advocating the study of unarmed combat as a part of physical and military
training, the Hwa Rang Do also recommended it as a recreational activity.
Korean culture and the native martial arts were strongly influenced and
enriched by this group of men, and modern studnets of Tae Kwon Do owe them a
debt of gratitude for preserving and refining the various forms of unarmed
combat present during this era. Modern students would also do well to study
and live by this code of honor followed by the Hwa Rang Do, as an undersatnding
of this philosophy is still an essential part of mastering Tae Kwon Do.
Duringthe Koryo Dynasty (935 A.D. - 1392 A.D. ) the study of unarmed combat in
Korea reached its greatest early popularity. Soo Bak Do, as Tae Kwon Do was
then called, was practiced as sport with detailed rules as well as being a
martial arts form. It was also during the Koryo Dynasty that "the science was
first technically organized and systemized by the leading masters of those
times." The study of Soo Bak was supported by the royal family and those
skilled in the art were often favorably considered for promotion in the
military or civil service. The kings of Koryo staged matches and
demonstrations of Soo Bak Annulally. Military men and masters of the art were
invited by the royal family to demonstrate their skills at the royal court.
The support given to Soo Bak by the royal family military men and the general
public during this period indicates the strong social position it occupied as a
martial arts form and a recreational activity.
With the coming of the Yi Dynasty in 1392 A.D., however, the strong emphasis
placed on military training, physical fitness and the ability to defend the
nation was weakened. King Taejo, founder of the Yi Dynasty, replaced Buddhism
with Confucianism as the state religion. The ruling class adopted Confucian
guidelines in their political and cultural outlook as well as in their personal
lives. Confucian thinking advocated classical Chyinese learning and played
down physical activity. According to the Confucian way of thought, the
"superior man" spent his time reading the Chinese classics, composing poetry or
learning to play musical instruments. Only "inferior men" engaged in strenuous
physical activities such as the martial arts. With ideas like this dominating
the ruling class, it is little wonder that popularity of Tae Kwon Do, then
known as Tae Kyon, began to decline among the people and that its technical
development was also hindered during this period. civil officers gained higher
esteem than military officers, socially as well as politically, and the
development of Korean martial arts was stifled during the reign of the early Yi
rulers.
Ortunately for the later generations of Tae Kwon Do stuents, one Yi Dynasty
ruler, King Chongjo, took an active interest in the native martial arts in
Korea. In 1790 A.D., he rdered General Lee Duck Mu to compile an official
textbook on all martial art forms then present in korea, including a chapter on
the forms of the unarmed combat. This volume, known as the Muye Dobo Tongji,
is now considered a definitive early classic of the martial arts of Korea. The
Muye dobu Tongi was a martial arts manual of the time using drawings from
carved wooden blocks and consisting of about forty pages of Korean style paper.
the illustrations and text of the volume describe the Korean martial arts of
the Yi Dynasty very clearly. The traditional Korean unarmed combat skills,
including Soo Bak and Tae Kyon, are codified and illustrated in the Muye Dobo
Tongji as well. While King Chongjo was not able to reverse the trend of
disinterest in the martial skills, the volume he ordered General Kee Duck Mu to
complie preserved a written record of the native Korean forms for the
instruction of future generations.
Military training and national defense continued to be neglected in Korea
during the eighteenth and nineteenth cenuries. no organized insturction was
available and the forms were handed down from father to son, or teacher to
disciple, always in the greatest secrecy. As the Yi Dynasty came to a close in
1909 A.D. with the Japanese occupation of korea, the practice of military
skills declined even further. The Japanese colonial government banned all
cultural activities, including team sports and the practice of martial arts, in
an attempt to destroy the Korean identity. Some martial arts instructors
continued to practice their skills in secrecy, and in this way the Korean
martial arts were kept alive. Japanese Karate and various Chinese forms were
introduced into Korea during this time, and the teachers of Soo Bak and Tae
Kyon further developed and incorporated these foreign techiques into the Korean
forms already being practiced. A hybrid form developed utilyzing Soo Bak as
its core and including techniques from the Chinese Shaolin-Ssu martial arts and
Japanese Karate. This new form was called Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do.
After liberation of Korea in 1945, Tae Kwon Do began another developmental
leap. Because of the foreign influence on Korean martial arts during the
Japanese occupation, many instructors saw the need to unify the various styles
present in Korea. Immediately after World War II, many masters returned to the
traditional Korean forms of the unarmed combat and combined them into a
unified, organized national sport. There was much discussion among the master
instructors about how best to unite the various dojangs (martial arts schools)
and recover traditional Tae Kyon. The first conference taht attempted to unite
the different dojangs took place in 1946 but without much success. Still,
there was a continuing and consious effort to unite the major schools and
standardize instruction methods throughout the country. What the master
instructors sought was a return to a distinctly Korean form of unarmed martial
skills, as free as possible from the foreign influences Tae Kyon undergone
during the years of the Japanses occupation. Finally, after years of
discussion and debate, the leaders of six major schools were able to agree on a
new, unified form, and standardized methods of instruction. The name chosen
for this form was Tae Kwon Do. In the Korean language, "Tae means to jump or
kick or smash with the foot; Kwon means to punch or strike with the hand or
fist; Do means, "a philosophical way or ways of life." In English this new
unified form translates as "the way of fist and foot fighting." The form the
master instructors finally settled on was characterized bvy four basic kinds of
skills; blocking, punching and kicking techniques, coordinated sequences of
basic techniques called forms, or Poomse, free sparring, and breaking methods,
a measure of concentration or focus. Finally, after years of intense
discussion and research, the master instructors had developed a Korean martial
arts form, onte that used traditional ancient Korean movements, those in use
before foreign influences had altered the native methods of unarmed combat.
CC
McGozer
>Hi, you're probably getting this email because you voiced your opinions in
the
>newletter about the origin of Taekwondo. I have also voiced my opinion,
and I
>wish to further explain my view. I hope as critics and martial artists,
you
>will take the time to read this email.
...[Very long post snipped here for brevity]...
I appreciate that you feel strongly enough about this to create the
article you sent to my email and also posted here in the newsgroup, but I
remain unconvinced. I am not going to do a lot of research, I really don't
invest that much interest in the topic. I study TKD as a student of the
USTF, and the ITF. Grand Master Sereff and General Choi are the heads of
these organizations and men I trust. I believe there is a great deal of
politics involved in the battle over the creation and development of TKD,
and it appears to me that you are telling us exactly what one of the
political interests in the battle proposes as the absolute truth. It differs
drastically from the version I am taught by my instructors and our
organizations. I choose to believe my instructors. They, of course,
represent the other side of that political battle. We will not reconcile
this. You needn't feel like you must crusade to change my mind, I am happy
to accept the word of these men, and reluctant to accept your word as a
stranger and one who would have me believe they are lying to me. Thanks for
your efforts and your passion.
Jere Hilland
Lee,Won Kuk (Tangsoodo Chung Do Kwan),GM Noh, Byung Jick (Tangsoodo Song
MooKwan), GM Chun, Sang Sup (Chosun Yun Moo Kwan Kwon Bup Bu), and GM Yoon,
ByungIn (Kwon Bup Bu) met to discuss mudo. GM Hwang Kee of the Hwa SooDo
Moodukkwan was not present, because his two previous efforts at opening
adojang failed, and he had just joined GM Lee's Chung Do Kwan as a white
belt, where he stayed and learned for six months before reopening his
"Tangsoodo Moodukkwan" in early 1947.During the Korean War (1950-53),
martial arts training was for the most partsuspended. However, on May 25,
1953, during the Korean War, representatives of the Five Original Kwans
(Chung Do Kwan, Song Moo Kwan, Yun Moo Kwan/Ji Do Kwon Bup/Chang Moo Kwan
and Moodukkwan) met and formed the Korea KongSoo Do Association. General
Choi was NOT a member of this group and did not attend the organizational
meeting, which was held in Pusan. In September 1953,GM Hwang Kee of the
Moodukkwan resigned from the Korea Kong Soo DoAssociation and formed his own
group, the Korea Tangsoodo Association.In April 1955, a Committee was
organized by General Choi to choose a unifyingname for the art practiced by
the original Five Kwans. At that time, the namesTangsoodo, Hwa Soo Do, Kong
Soo Do and Kwon Bop were being used by the Kwans.Attending this meeting were
various business leaders and also Chung Do Kwan instructors GM Son, Duk Sung
and GM Hyun, Jong Myun. General Choi, as Chairman of the Committee, is
credited with suggesting the name "Tae Kwon". The committee unanimously
agreed. However, the name was not immediately accepted by the other Kwans.
In November 1958, the Korea Tangsoodo Association (under GM Hwang Ki)
applied for membership to the Korea Amateur Sports Association ("KASA") but
was denied because there was a rival organization, the Korea Kong Soo Do
Association. KASA agreed to accept the application if both organizations
united as one.Representatives of the two associations met and agreed to
unite under the name Korea Soo Bahk Do Association. Before the application
could be a approved,General Choi sent a petition delaying the proceedings
because his school, the Oh Do Kwan was being left out of the process. On
September 3, 1959, there presentatives of the six Kwans agreed to unite
under the name The Korea Taekwondo Association. General Choi was chosen as
President, and Moodukkwan's GM Hwang Kee was elected Secretary General.
Other officers included VicePresidents Noh Byung Jik (Song Mookwan) and Yoon
Kwe Byung (Ji Do Kwan);Senior Directors Hyun Jong Myun (Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do
Kwan), Lee Chong Woo (JiDo Kwan), Lee Nam Suk (Chang Mookwan), Ko Jae Chun
(Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan),Lee Young Suk (Song Mookwan); Directors Chung
Chang Young (Moodukkwan/Oh DoKwan), Nam Tae Hi (Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan),
Bae Young Ki (Ji Do Kwan), UhmWoo Kyu (Chung Do Kwan); and Inspectors Kim
Soon Bae (Chang Mookwan) and ChoByung Shi (I forget). These men are seen in
the group photo dated 9/3/4292 inGeneral Choi's books. However, this
organization would not last very long.General Choi was elected partially
because of his position as General in the Korean Army (under a military
regime) and also because he made big promises tothe heads of the original
kwans to promote Taekwondo. However, the country was poor and had other more
pressing concerns than spending valuable resources on martial arts. Roads
needed to be built, and the country's standard of living needed to be raised
before "frivolous" things like martial arts would be governmentally
financed. Because the government failed to come through with the things
General Choi promised, General Choi fell into disfavor with the otherkwan
heads. GM Hwang Ki pulled the Moodukkwan out of this group, and the Jidokwan
later followed suit.On May 16, 1961, a military group led by General Park
Chung Hee and his brother in law Colonel Kim Jong Pil succeeded in a
bloodless, coup d'etat. On September 19, 1961, the newly formed Korea Tae
Soo Do Association was created and this is considered the "true"
inauguration of the KTA. Mr. Che Myung Shin (a non-martial artist) was
chosen the First President and served until January 15, 1965, when he was
replaced by General Choi. From September1961 until January 1965, General
Choi did not serve the Korea Tae Soo DoAssociation either as an officer or
Director. General Choi served a ONE YEAR term as President, during which
time he convinced the Association to change its name to the Korea Taekwondo
Association. This name change was completed on August 5, 1965. General Choi
wasreplaced as President on January 30, 1966 by Song Mookwan founder Noh
Byung Jik. Less than two months later, General Choi formed the International
Taekwondo Federation, on March 22, 1966. The ITF, from day one, was
considered a PRIVATE organization, much like GM Hwang Ki's organization was
private. It was NEVER the international arm of the Korea Taekwondo
Association. On January 17, 1971, Dr. Un Yong Kim (who was serving as Deputy
Chief of the Presidential Protective Forces) was chosen as the new President
of the Korea Taekwondo Association. Two months later, on March 20, 1971,
President ParkChung Hee declared Taekwondo as Korea's national sport and
funds were set allocated to build the Kukkiwon, which would serve as the
Central Gymnasium and World Headquarters for Taekwondo. Construction was
begun on the Kukkiwon in1971, and was completed in November 1972. During
construction of the Kukkiwon, the 1st World Taekwondo Championships were
planned along with the formation of a new world governing body, called
theWorld Taekwondo Federation. Both were done at the same time, in May 1973
at the newly built Kukkiwon. A world governing body was needed in order for
Taekwondo to be selected as an Olympic sport, which the Korean government
felt was it'sway to world legitimacy, in much the same way Judo had done for
Japan at the1964 Tokyo Olympics. Dr. Kim was chosen to head both the
Kukkiwon and the World Taekwondo Federation.General Choi was not included in
this plan. In 1972, before the completion of the Kukkiwon and before the
formation of the WTF, General Choi left Korea permanently and resettled in
Canada. Because the ITF was not a governmentalentity, but rather a PRIVATE
organization, General Choi was allowed to take the ITF with him to Canada.
On January 8, 1977, nine of the largest Kwans (Chungdokwan, Jidokwan,
Moodukkwan, Changmookwan, Song Mookwan, Han Mookwan, Oh Do Kwan, Jung
DoKwan, and Kangdukwon) agreed to recognize the Kukkiwon as the ultimate
promotional authority with respect to Dan certification. The kwan leaders
realized that if the Kwans were to be truly united, then a single
promotional body needed to be recognized for certification. That body was
the Kukkiwon.Prior to this declaration, most practitioners valued their Kwan
Dan certificates and certification more so than the "official" certificates
from the Kukkiwon, and prior to that, the Korea Taekwondo Association. By
signing the declaration recognizing the Kukkiwon's ultimate promotional
authority in Korea, the Kwan Heads voluntarily gave up much of their power
and the prestige of their kwan names in order for Taekwondo to grow. This
was part of the tremendous collective effort that characterizes
theleadership and spirit of the WTF. Within the WTF framework, no single
personcan be given sole credit or even individual credit for the promotion
toTaekwondo, since to do otherwise would take away from this collective
effort and collective spirit.
bambam
James Mau wrote in message
>They claim Tang Soo Do is Korean art, but to me it is just another
stepchild of
>karate. Don't forget,in chinese,Tang Soo means Chinese Hand which exactly
what
>karate means before they change the name from Tate to karate.
Pardon me if I am being ignorant here, but wasn't Tang Soo Do named thus as
an acknowledgement to its routes. ie it was learnt by Korean peoples and
based entirely on the martial arts of northern china.....isn't that why its
called Tang Soo Do, or did I just dream this or something....
Please tell me that you aren't suggesting that in the Tang Dynasty there
where people in northern China teaching karate to Koreans....surely not.....
BaM
bambam
question is; Taekwondo, korean martial art or bastardised version of
karate.
Surely the simple answer is that it is a korean martial art....how can it
not be.
It certainly has influences from both Chinese and Japanese martial arts, but
it would wouldn't it, being stuck between the two of them.
It is also obvious that it is heavily influenced by ancient korean martial
arts like taekyon, hwarangdo etc. to deny their influence is just stubborn.
I'm quite sure that there are some techniques that are comparable to karate
techniques, but how many different ways to kick someone are there? of
course it is comparable.....comparable to most other martial arts too....
It is simply not true to say that taekwondo is based on karate...is it
really the case that Korea during the Japanese occupation so loved their
userpers that they dropped hundreds and hundreds of years of proud
tradition, adopted karate as a mark of respect to the people occupuing their
country and jusst gave it a different name....doesn't ring true to me.....
BaM
John A. Wielmaker
bambam wrote:
it is a korean martial art....how can it
> not be.
> It certainly has influences from both Chinese and Japanese martial arts,
> It is also obvious that it is heavily influenced by ancient korean martial
> arts like taekyon, hwarangdo etc. to deny their influence is just stubborn.
>
Well, to this, I'd say it is not at all 'stubborn' to insist on proof. It is
not atall obvious that post-WWII TKD is 'heavily' influenced by Taekkyon or
HRD. HRD, by the way, is entirely a product of Joo Bang-lee's
florrid imagination----Lee was a fifth dan in Hapkido in korea in the
late 1950s. He went to CA and created HRD. HRD is Hapkido
with snazzy uniforms and a bogous pedigree.
ITF TKD is in ALL its basics Shotokan karate; the kicks and tourney
sheite evolved later.
> I'm quite sure that there are some techniques that are comparable to karate
> techniques, but how many different ways to kick someone are there? of
> course it is comparable.....comparable to most other martial arts too....
The underlying doctrine of ITF TKD and Shotokan karate are identical.
>
>
> It is simply not true to say that taekwondo is based on karate...is it
> really the case that Korea during the Japanese occupation so loved their
> userpers that they dropped hundreds and hundreds of years of proud
> tradition, adopted karate as a mark of respect to the people occupuing their
> country and jusst gave it a different name....doesn't ring true to me.....
It is true. There exists no evidence to prove otherwise----and, what's more, we
have loads of evidence arguing precisely the opposite.
>
>
> BaM
CalChulho
influenced Korea...in all ways. BUT, that influence goes both ways.
from what i know, it is because the korean martial arts contained foreign
influences that Taekwondo was to be formed officially, but shedding the
influences, and revealing the original korean martial art forms.
but, all have different opinions. there are different sources that tell
different stories. which sources do we believe? well, that's up to the
reader. but if you are to say that tkd is FROM karate, that is COMPLETELY
WRONG. if you say taekwondo has karate influences, maybe. (although i still
disagree, but that's not the point)
ok, i'm wondering... any other interesting topics to talk about? (besides the
origin of tkd)
CalChulho
like these coming...
cc
Kit890
>not atall obvious that post-WWII TKD is 'heavily' influenced by Taekkyon or
>HRD. HRD, by the way, is entirely a product of Joo Bang-lee's
>florrid imagination----Lee was a fifth dan in Hapkido in korea in the
>late 1950s. He went to CA and created HRD. HRD is Hapkido
>with snazzy uniforms and a bogous pedigree.
>
>ITF TKD is in ALL its basics Shotokan karate; the kicks and tourney
>sheite evolved later.
>
>
>
>> I'm quite sure that there are some techniques that are comparable to karate
>> techniques, but how many different ways to kick someone are there? of
>> course it is comparable.....comparable to most other martial arts too....
>
>The underlying doctrine of ITF TKD and Shotokan karate are identical.
>
>>
>>
>> It is simply not true to say that taekwondo is based on karate...is it
>> really the case that Korea during the Japanese occupation so loved their
>> userpers that they dropped hundreds and hundreds of years of proud
>> tradition, adopted karate as a mark of respect to the people occupuing
>their
>> country and jusst gave it a different name....doesn't ring true to me.....
>
>
>
>It is true. There exists no evidence to prove otherwise----and, what's more,
>we
>
>have loads of evidence arguing precisely the opposite.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> BaM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I agree with you totally.
CalChulho
complete opposite story. so it's rather hard what to believe. which sources
are credible? i don't know. i've read and heard different things about origin
of tkd. i still believe what i believed, but i can see why the opposing side
believes otherwise.
i should ask Dr. Min about this though... he is working to have a TKD minor in
Universities, starting with our school, UC Berkeley. I suppose he is a
credible source. I'll probably talk to him today... Anyways, from what "I"
know about Hwarangdo,
(this is just a cut out from what i posted couple of days ago...)
It was in the kingdom of Silla (57 B.C. - 936 A.D.) which existed along the
southeastern portion of the Korean peninsula, that the Korean martial art forms
reached their highest level yet. Silla unified the Three Kingdoms and, after
taking over paekje in 668 A.D. and Koguryo in 670 A.D., held contorl for three
centuries. A military, educational and social organization started by King Jin
Heung, and kown as the Haw Rang Do, played a major role in the unifying of the
Three Kingdoms. The Hwa RAnd Do was made up of youths of noble families,
devoted to cultivating mind and body in order to better serve Silla. The
Martial spirit represented by the Hwa Rang Do "become the root of Sillas'
national morality and strength." The followed a code of honor comprised of
rigid loyalty to the nation, respect and obedience to one's partens, unswerving
loyalty to friends, courage in battle and prudence on using violence or taking
life. This code of honor remains the philosophical backbone of the Korean
martial arts even today. the Hwa Rang Do trained in all forms of martial
skills, incluing an unarmed fighting form known as Soo Bak, which they refined
into a highly effective series of cambative movements. In addition to
advocating the study of unarmed combat as a part of physical and military
training, the Hwa Rang Do also recommended it as a recreational activity.
Korean culture and the native martial arts were strongly influenced and
enriched by this group of men, and modern studnets of Tae Kwon Do owe them a
debt of gratitude for preserving and refining the various forms of unarmed
combat present during this era. Modern students would also do well to study
and live by this code of honor followed by the Hwa Rang Do, as an undersatnding
of this philosophy is still an essential part of mastering Tae Kwon Do.
cc
CalChulho
TKD, is maybe what i know about... i know the dojangs got together to rid of
foreign influences and reveal the pure korean martial arts form. which is the
backbone of WTF, and not ITF?
but i hear that ITF started out as a private school, and WTF is now the offical
org for TKD.
So... you guys think the argument might be present because one party is talking
about the formation of WTF, while the other one is talking about ITF?
cc
bambam
John A. Wielmaker wrote in message >
>Well, to this, I'd say it is not at all 'stubborn' to insist on proof. It
is
or
>HRD. HRD, by the way, is entirely a product of Joo Bang-lee's
>florrid imagination----Lee was a fifth dan in Hapkido in korea in the
>late 1950s. He went to CA and created HRD. HRD is Hapkido
>with snazzy uniforms and a bogous pedigree.
>
are on the wrong track here....are you quite sure that Hwarang-do isn't an
ancient martial art that the korean military learnt from the Chinese and
after adapting it to suit their needs bought home and tought to the rest of
their miltary....sort of around the time of the early 6th century - Under
Queen Songduk, shortly after the 3 major kingdoms of Korea had first been
united....
Or is this all just made up as background for Koreas blatent pilfering of
karate.
>
>> I'm quite sure that there are some techniques that are comparable to
karate
>> techniques, but how many different ways to kick someone are there? of
>> course it is comparable.....comparable to most other martial arts too....
>
>The underlying doctrine of ITF TKD and Shotokan karate are identical.
>
>>
>> It is simply not true to say that taekwondo is based on karate...is it
>> really the case that Korea during the Japanese occupation so loved their
>> userpers that they dropped hundreds and hundreds of years of proud
>> tradition, adopted karate as a mark of respect to the people occupuing
their
>> country and jusst gave it a different name....doesn't ring true to
me.....
>
>
>
>It is true. There exists no evidence to prove otherwise----and, what's
more, we have loads of evidence arguing precisely the opposite.
firstly who is we? and do not a nation of Koreans....thousands of Korean
martial arts schools and well documented evidence and the very fact that the
art bares a striking resembelence to other korean arts etc etc count as
proof?
I just want to check that in reality the pure, crystallised form of your
argument is that Korea's indigenous martial arts died out about a hundred
years ago...they quite liked the Japanese occupying forces, but didn't want
people to know it so copied karate, stuck a different name on it...and then
fooled a number of international martial arts bodies and the people of Korea
and most of the world into thinking it was a Korean martial art, which
although admitting influences from both Chinese and Japanese arts was
essentially based on ancient Korean ones (which you insist were either
imaginary or long dead) and that only you and a band of dedicated historians
know the truth.
please....
bambam
Kit890 wrote in message
>
>I agree with you totally.
you do realise that its bad manners to waste bandwidth and peoples time by
posting replies that contain the full text of the previous message to add
something as purile as this don't you.
Wait till you have something of worht to say please.
BaM
Sharon Kaufman
My son' s Grandmaster's Instructor came over from KOREA for a brief visit,
and according to his book
" A Guide to Taekwondo by Kyo Yoon Lee " His Biographical sketch states that
he founded the Central
Gymnasium of Hanmookwan in aug 1954. Board of directors KTA March 1961.
First Instuctor for Taekwondo division of Seoul Metropolitian Police.
etc.etc.etc Has anyone ever heard of Kyo Yoon Lee ?
My son Grandmaster's doesn't talk much about the History of Tae Kwon Do.
CalChulho <calc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990125204217...@ng155.aol.com...
Alex
bambam heeft geschreven in bericht ...
Tang I think refers too the Tang dynasty. The Kara in Karate means empty, but
it also means Chinese.
I think it was an acknowledgement that Tang Soo Do is in fact Karate, even more
so than ITF or WTF Taekwondo are. Some of the Tang Soo Do forms even
still have their old Shotokan/Karate names (Bassai, Kusanku, etc.).
Alex
Alex
bambam heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>question is; Taekwondo, korean martial art or bastardised version of
>karate.
>
>not be.
>It certainly has influences from both Chinese and Japanese martial arts, but
>it would wouldn't it, being stuck between the two of them.
What influences does Taekwondo definitely have from China?
The only thing I could think of are the emphasis on leg techniques,
which also holds true to an extent for Northern Chinese Kung Fu,
but on the other hand, there are also jumping kicks in some forms
of Karate.
Enlighten me.
Alex
James Mau
>posting replies that contain the full text of the previous message to add
>something as purile as this don't you.
>Wait till you have something of worht to say please.
>BaM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
What is your problem?
Josh Gines
older koreans, still don't like the fact that Americans are becoming higher
Dans in Tkd. My Grandmaster is open-minded about that and has no problem
with Americans. Many Koreans won't talk about something like that to anyone
but Koreans. Just ask your son's instructor for credentials, that's all I
can advise.
Tkd51
-**** Posted from remarQ, Discussions Start Here(tm) ****-
http://www.remarq.com/ - Host to the the World's Discussions & Usenet
LoriAnnWD
students. The person who helped him told him that teaching in America is WAY
different than teaching in Korea. He told this instructor that most people in
America aren't use to the harsh treatment of teaching that he does and that
they would prefer to just teach them the art, take their money and keep the
nasty comments to himself. From everything that I understood about this person
in the way he teaches that it is like a military. Is this the way that they
were taught themselves or is that just being a more than strict instructor with
a horrible attitude? It's one thing to tell someone that they did wrong and
help them correct it but not to the point of getting in someone's face and
making them feel worthless.
>Tk...@hotmail.com (Josh Gines)
bambam
bambam
>What influences does Taekwondo definitely have from China?
>The only thing I could think of are the emphasis on leg techniques,
>which also holds true to an extent for Northern Chinese Kung Fu,
>but on the other hand, there are also jumping kicks in some forms
>of Karate.
I am nogreat expert on Chinese martial arts, but much of the older Korean
arts were based on Northern Chinese techniques.....hwarangdo was an
interpritation of many N.chinese martial techniques.....this shows today, as
you said in the emphasis on leg techniques (not unique I know, but an
indicator) and the more circular motion of many hand techniques (although
admitadly this is less and less prevalent)
perhaps now I need to learn more about northern kungfu styles....hmm
bambam
>
>bambam heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>>
anywhere) but are you then suggesting that karate originated in China?
Mark Brazier
bambam wrote in message ...
<snip>
>I just want to check that in reality the pure, crystallised form of your
>argument is that Korea's indigenous martial arts died out about a hundred
>years ago...they quite liked the Japanese occupying forces, but didn't want
>people to know it so copied karate, stuck a different name on it...and then
"they quite liked the Japanese occupying forces" ??
Where did you here this? I know a lot of anti-Japanese sentiment was stirred
up in Korea in the latter half of this century, but I thought there was
always an animosity between the two nations. I've yet to meet a Korean who
"quite liked" the Japanese (nor have I met an Englishman who "quite like(s)"
the French :) )
Mark Brazier
Mark Brazier
respond to them.
I'm off to flagellate myself for penance.
Mark Brazier
CalChulho
carefully, he said that other people's main argument was "[the koreans quite
like the japanese]...", etc. that wasn't bam's words, but imitation of his
opposing side of an...argument, sadly. i say sadly because we should be
informing each other and helping each other, not alleviate oneself and
depreciate the other
cc
bambam
Mark Brazier wrote in message
<917604630.2032.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>Humble apologies for my idiocy. Next time I'll read your emails before I
>respond to them.
>
>I'm off to flagellate myself for penance.
apology accepted....
I have done exactly the same thing before, and replied wothout reading
things properly (and it is a longish and twisty thread) :o)
thanks anyway :o)
BaM
bambam
CalChulho wrote in message <19990129050657...@ng23.aol.com>...
>i'm sure bam will defend this
>informing each other and helping each other, not alleviate oneself and
>depreciate the other
quite right CC...I did get a bit carried away but it was the stubborn
assertation that taekwondo is karate.....got me wound up.
you are right though - running arguments do nobody any good....just get long
stupid threads and waste space on the newsgroup.
So I say no more on the subject now - I believe that what I know is right,
and I think that most people here are of a similarish opinion - anyway, I'll
stop going on now.
Thank you for being a voice of reason :o)
BaM
J Thomas Howard
CalChulho <calc...@aol.com> wrote:
> an analogy : when did the language of english come about? just this century?
> last century? no... it has a long and rich history. but we do not say that
> english started this late, because there's more history to its development than
> that.
Indeed. BUT, one can say the basics, for example, were greatly from
England. Similarly, the basics of TKD came from Japanese karate.
> you're right in that tkd was "officialized" and greatly studied during the mid
> 1900s. however, it does not mean that's when tkd started.
Actually, it was greatly studied after Japan withdrew from Korea.
Considering it hadn't existed as a martial art before that time, it
probably wasn't studied much. Now, the people who founded TKD were indeed
practicing in the 1900s (early and middle) but TKD as an art form didn't
exist in early 1900s.
> tkd has long and rich history as well...well, before the koryo dynasty. of
> course, it was called differently then... but tkd's roots lies in those
> ancient korean forms, not japanese.
[sigh] No. Before the koryo dynasty, we have only rudimentary knowledge
of any empty hand martial arts that were studied.
> this is a controversial topic. but i believe it was discovered in korea (in a
> cave somewhere) that an ancient painting of korean kings and such practicing
> movements that remarkably resembled the forms of tkd today. i think the
> painting was dated in B.C. years.
"Kings and such?" That is a new one. The paintings and such in question
are almost exactly the same as ones found in China, and the phrase
"remarkably resembled" is so far from the truth that it is laughable. The
poses are no closer to TKD than they are many other arts.
To be exact, the paintings there are remarkably similar to ones in China
where the only difference is that the Chinese ones have spears in their
hands. (Even the hand position is the same.)
> of course, i do not study paintings or forensics and i have not seen it for
> myself, but there are many texts out there. we're all probably saying all this
> based on our own research.
Actually, most people are probably saying whatever hearsay they have
heard, most of which is exceedingly far from the truth.
> where did kung fu come from? is it chinese? well, not really... because kung
> fu's roots are not from china...it's in india. so it all matters how you look
> at it.
> oh, you're also right in that there was japanese influence in modern tkd...
> when the japanese occupied korea... but influence is different than where it's
> originally from.
No. The japanese arts of karate directly influenced the martial artists
who created TKD. More specifically, the history of TKD is rather the
opposite of what you are saying. Karate was the basis of TKD, and the
Korean arts that were remembered/still practiced influenced and changed it
over time. The original versions of TKD that were practiced were almost
identical to the japanese styles which their founders had practiced.
Over time, that changed. What with TaeKyon coming back (after the
demonstration in ~1950, I think) more emphasis on kicks, and more
importantly, circular kicks was added that added a distinctive korean
"flavor" to the art.
Now, if you want to talk about mental and emotional influence, the group
Hwa Rang Do (ancient group, not the current-day art) probably has had the
most influence on the morals, ethics, and meaning of current day korean
arts. However, the techniques themselves, as of the time when tkd (under
the names in which it began) first started, were almost completely
japanese in origin.
I would highly suggest you read Dakin Burdick's article in the Journal of
Asian Martial Arts about the history of TKD and its founders.
> you could say that i'm influenced by America. But that doesn't make me say
> that i'm from America. I'm from korea. my roots and culture is korean, even
> with influence of America.
Similarly, TKD's roots are from Japan. However, the changes that the
korean culture and martial styles made in the original art has created
something altogether different than it's original form.
Hearsay from a particular organization tends to lend itself to
self-gratifiction in terms of each organization's founder, country, and
style. One of the most interesting things to do it to look at any
particular organization's history, and see how they have altered or
changed that history over time.
Thomas
------------------------------------
tho...@binary.net
http://www.binary.net/thomcat/
"If you aren't modeling what you are teaching
then you are teaching something else."
David Kelsen
...
> Hearsay from a particular organization tends to lend itself to
> self-gratifiction in terms of each organization's founder, country, and
> style. One of the most interesting things to do it to look at any
> particular organization's history, and see how they have altered or
> changed that history over time.
>
An excellent piece of advice. I recommend it to you. For my money, I'm a bit more
inclined to believe the Koreans I know who were in Korea in the '50's than any of the
caucasian authors I see cited in this newsgroup as 'the real story'.
Not having done the required research myself, i.e. going to personally talk with
those who were there, I find it interesting that so many of you have such firm
beliefs, based (apparently) on what you read first or most often, while deriding the
converse opinions of others, either with caustic comment or thru attitudes of
certainty and superiority.
In fact, none of you (nor I, I hasten to point out) know just which aspects of
Taekwondo were adapted from the Japanese, and which were adopted from the Hwarang-do,
and which were influenced moreso by the Chinese.
There does seem to be consensus that the Japanese got the art from the Okinawans, who
got it from the Chinese, who got it from the Indians. How true this is is also open
to conjecture.
Perhaps a bit of self-control is in order; the self-righteous opinions being bandied
about in this venue do not reflect well on we practitioners.
David Kelsen
--
theo...@mindspring.com
kel...@netscape.net
--
An unemployed court jester is nobody's fool.
J Thomas Howard
> J Thomas Howard wrote:
>> Hearsay from a particular organization tends to lend itself to
>> self-gratifiction in terms of each organization's founder, country, and
>> style. One of the most interesting things to do it to look at any
>> particular organization's history, and see how they have altered or
>> changed that history over time.
>>
> An excellent piece of advice. I recommend it to you. For my money, I'm a bit more
> inclined to believe the Koreans I know who were in Korea in the '50's than any of the
> caucasian authors I see cited in this newsgroup as 'the real story'.
That is mildly humorous. Considering every single fact that is provable
show that TKD originates in Japanese karate (including the early forms,
practice, histories) your following comments are not only ludicrous, but
actually amusing.
> Not having done the required research myself, i.e. going to personally talk with
> those who were there, I find it interesting that so many of you have such firm
> beliefs, based (apparently) on what you read first or most often, while deriding the
> converse opinions of others, either with caustic comment or thru attitudes of
> certainty and superiority.
> In fact, none of you (nor I, I hasten to point out) know just which aspects of
> Taekwondo were adapted from the Japanese, and which were adopted from the Hwarang-do,
> and which were influenced moreso by the Chinese.
Oh, the direct usage of japanese karate forms doesn't give you a clue?
Perchance the early forms of the korean arts that became tkd, in their
techniques (that are straight from japanese karate), that doesn't help?
Maybe the changing histories of the various "founders" of tkd, that
originally show a link to karate, but now amazingly don't have any
connections at all?
> There does seem to be consensus that the Japanese got the art from the Okinawans, who
> got it from the Chinese, who got it from the Indians. How true this is is also open
> to conjecture.
Wasn't commenting on that at all. Don't attempt to argue by changing the
topic, or the range of the topic.
> Perhaps a bit of self-control is in order; the self-righteous opinions being bandied
> about in this venue do not reflect well on we practitioners.
Indeed. I recommend that to you, as well as the brains to simply look at
the facts. [1]
Thomas
[1] Yes, I have an attitude---but sloppy thinking bugs me, and people who
automatically parrot the words of their instructors without thinking about
their meaning jump to the top of my list.
J Thomas Howard
> oh my...this is pretty sad. tkd started LONG before even karate
> started...please get your facts straight
Says someone who hasn't bothered to study ANYTHING resembling history,
whether Korean history, martial history, or TKD history.
Thomas
J Thomas Howard
[snip]> Well.....as I see this argument going...and going..and going....the basic
> question is; Taekwondo, korean martial art or bastardised version of
> karate.
I'm not really sure that is the question. I wouldn't consider it a
bastardised version of karate. It certainly was based on karate, but it
has changed greatly over the years to a singular art of its own.
> Surely the simple answer is that it is a korean martial art....how can it
> not be.
> It certainly has influences from both Chinese and Japanese martial arts, but
> it would wouldn't it, being stuck between the two of them.
> It is also obvious that it is heavily influenced by ancient korean martial
> arts like taekyon, hwarangdo etc. to deny their influence is just stubborn.
[sigh] Hwarangdo wasn't a martial art. True, there is a martial art of
that name now, however THEY don't even claim to directly use the
techniques of the ancient Hwa Rang Do.
Taekyon had all but died in Korea, but more importantly, the people who
founded the styles that later became TKD didn't practice TaeKyon, or at
the very least, didn't practice them long.
It became common, after the occupation, for korean instructors to add
"also a master of taekyon" to whatever advertisements they were creating
to collect students. Considering the occupation, it isn't surprising that
the Koreans wanted NO connection with the Japanese, and thus attributing
their martial knowledge to something innately Korean was a good tactic.
> I'm quite sure that there are some techniques that are comparable to karate
> techniques, but how many different ways to kick someone are there? of
> course it is comparable.....comparable to most other martial arts too....
Not really. What about the forms? So many people who have knee-jerk
reactions to TKD history (and we know the important and operative part of
the phrase "knee-Jerk reaction") ignore most facts about that
history---such as the original forms of many styles that became TKD were
forms straight from Karate.
> It is simply not true to say that taekwondo is based on karate...is it
> really the case that Korea during the Japanese occupation so loved their
> userpers that they dropped hundreds and hundreds of years of proud
> tradition, adopted karate as a mark of respect to the people occupuing their
> country and jusst gave it a different name....doesn't ring true to me.....
Thinking of it that way, of course not. Of course, that isn't the correct
way to think about it. And your initial statement isn't simply not true,
and factually provably so.
David Kelsen
> David Kelsen <theo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > J Thomas Howard wrote:
>
> >> Hearsay from a particular organization tends to lend itself to
> >> self-gratifiction in terms of each organization's founder, country, and
> >> style. One of the most interesting things to do it to look at any
> >> particular organization's history, and see how they have altered or
> >> changed that history over time.
> >>
>
> > An excellent piece of advice. I recommend it to you. For my money, I'm a bit more
> > inclined to believe the Koreans I know who were in Korea in the '50's than any of the
> > caucasian authors I see cited in this newsgroup as 'the real story'.
>
> That is mildly humorous. Considering every single fact that is provable
> show that TKD originates in Japanese karate (including the early forms,
> practice, histories) your following comments are not only ludicrous, but
> actually amusing.
>
So you are simply amused at the actual history; pray tell what is the source of your
'provable facts', if it is not from those who were there?
>
> > Not having done the required research myself, i.e. going to personally talk with
> > those who were there, I find it interesting that so many of you have such firm
> > beliefs, based (apparently) on what you read first or most often, while deriding the
> > converse opinions of others, either with caustic comment or thru attitudes of
> > certainty and superiority.
> > In fact, none of you (nor I, I hasten to point out) know just which aspects of
> > Taekwondo were adapted from the Japanese, and which were adopted from the Hwarang-do,
> > and which were influenced moreso by the Chinese.
>
> Oh, the direct usage of japanese karate forms doesn't give you a clue?
> Perchance the early forms of the korean arts that became tkd, in their
> techniques (that are straight from japanese karate), that doesn't help?
> Maybe the changing histories of the various "founders" of tkd, that
> originally show a link to karate, but now amazingly don't have any
> connections at all?
>
Your statement indicates that you have proof of the form and practice of Taekyon, Subak,
and the Hwarang. I find that interesting. Further, you inanely attempt to imply that I
indicated there is no connection. I have in fact stated specifically that we do not know
just what the roots are. For example (and I'm not suggesting this is the case - try to
read slowly) if the same Okinawans who introduced karate to Japan introduced it in Korea,
then the source would not be Japanese at all, even though the techniques were very similar
or identical. You assume facts not in evidence, which is ignorant, but your right. It is
entirely inappropriate for you to attempt to change what I have said into something
altogether different.
To recap, the point I made earlier is that we do not know (precisely) the arts that were
practiced in Korea which led to the form and function of what is now taekwondo. At no time
did I indicate that it is not karate-influenced; I did say that I tend to believe those
Koreans I know who were there - although I did not say what they have said to me.
>
> > There does seem to be consensus that the Japanese got the art from the Okinawans, who
> > got it from the Chinese, who got it from the Indians. How true this is is also open
> > to conjecture.
>
> Wasn't commenting on that at all. Don't attempt to argue by changing the
> topic, or the range of the topic.
>
Imprimus, I was not arguing with you; I did not take up a contrary position. I simply
pointed out that we don't know much more than what we are told, and hoped to help folks
here recall that history is written by the victors, i.e. not to believe all that you
read. This does not seem to be to difficult to understand, and you even allude to it
somewhat yourself, albeit only with respect to what does not coincide with your own beliefs
on the subject.
Secundus, the point of my statement above, while perhaps somewhat obsequious, is that the
entire argument raging in the newsgroup and elsewhere is somewhat moot; for example, what
do you feel is so important about TKD acknowledging that its' roots are in Japanese karate,
and are you as vociferous in demanding the Japanese acknowledge the Okinawan roots of their
practice, and in turn the Okinawans acknowledge the Chinese, etc.? What is the crux of the
argument? Do you wish to ultimately pay homage to the Indian martial arts, and have others
do the same, or will you stop in Japan? What do you wish to achieve by attacking others
here with this rationale?
>
> > Perhaps a bit of self-control is in order; the self-righteous opinions being bandied
> > about in this venue do not reflect well on we practitioners.
>
> Indeed. I recommend that to you, as well as the brains to simply look at
> the facts. [1]
>
> Thomas
> [1] Yes, I have an attitude---but sloppy thinking bugs me, and people who
> automatically parrot the words of their instructors without thinking about
> their meaning jump to the top of my list.
I have parroted nothing; nor have I given voice to my own opinions on the matter, except to
say that I tend to believe those people who 1.) were there, and 2.) have spoken to me about
it. You not only don't know what they have said to me, you don't know who they are; yet
you have indicated I have engaged in sloppy thinking, having decided what my opinion is.
Are you in high school yet?
David Kelsen
--
theo...@mindspring.com
kel...@netscape.net
--
A bad day on the bike always beats a good day at the office.
bambam
J Thomas Howard wrote in message ...
> So many people who have knee-jerk
>reactions to TKD history (and we know the important and operative part of
>the phrase "knee-Jerk reaction") ignore most facts about that
>history---
ooh...personal insults now.....never mind :o)
>Thinking of it that way, of course not. Of course, that isn't the correct
>way to think about it. And your initial statement isn't simply not true,
>and factually provably so.
>
not sure what you're trying to say.....'isn't simply not true', I am tired
so maybe I'm not reading it right Thomas but it seems not to make much
sense.
anyway....we're getting nowhere you and I....we both have our sources of
information, we both have different opinions, we both keep repeating the
same things, and filling this NG with it....so once and for all I state my
spin on things....and shall be drawn on it no more.
I believe that taekwondo is based primarily on indigenous Korean martial art
systems. I am happy to acknowledge that it carries influences from both
Japanese and Chinese martial arts, but hold that it is primarily Korean in
origin.
You disagree with that and thats fine...but I don't think that we should
continue repeating the same argument over and over.
So thats my line anyway and until I come across something to change my mind,
I will stick with it.
BaM
PS I read somewhere recently that martial arts came to Japan from India
originally....through China.....through Korea....through Okinawa....
I have know proof of it...but its a nice idea :o)
J Thomas Howard
> J Thomas Howard wrote:
>> David Kelsen <theo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> > J Thomas Howard wrote:
>> >> Hearsay from a particular organization tends to lend itself to
>> >> self-gratifiction in terms of each organization's founder, country, and
>> >> style. One of the most interesting things to do it to look at any
>> >> particular organization's history, and see how they have altered or
>> >> changed that history over time.
>> > An excellent piece of advice. I recommend it to you. For my money, I'm a bit more
>> > inclined to believe the Koreans I know who were in Korea in the '50's than any of the
>> > caucasian authors I see cited in this newsgroup as 'the real story'.
>> That is mildly humorous. Considering every single fact that is provable
>> show that TKD originates in Japanese karate (including the early forms,
>> practice, histories) your following comments are not only ludicrous, but
>> actually amusing.
> So you are simply amused at the actual history; pray tell what is the source of your
> 'provable facts', if it is not from those who were there?
Since you apparently are believing people who obviously have a personal
stake in their claims, without bothering to check on the actual history of
the time, indeed, I am amused at what you claim. Saying it is "actual
history" is simply not provable by the facts of the case.
Do tell----these "masters of TKD"----where did they learn these ancient
korean arts? When? How? Many of them were in Japan from a young age on.
Are you telling me they learned ancient hidden korean arts while in a
different country?
People who were there can indeed give interesting stories about the
happenings of the times. The problem is, people lie. Or they obsfucate.
Or they "adjust" the truth to put themselves in a better light. Or, in
the example of the Koreans, change history so as to not mention the
Japanese at all, given any other choice.
Considering the history, that isn't surprising----after the occupation, I
wouldn't particularly be inclinced to give any shrift to the Japanese
either. However, that doesn't make this new revisionist history any more
true.
>> > Not having done the required research myself, i.e. going to personally talk with
>> > those who were there, I find it interesting that so many of you have such firm
>> > beliefs, based (apparently) on what you read first or most often, while deriding the
>> > converse opinions of others, either with caustic comment or thru attitudes of
>> > certainty and superiority.
And I find it amusing that you parrot what you apparently have heard from
your instructors so vehemently without having done any of the "required
research" ----which some of the rest of us have.
>> > In fact, none of you (nor I, I hasten to point out) know just which aspects of
>> > Taekwondo were adapted from the Japanese, and which were adopted from the Hwarang-do,
>> > and which were influenced moreso by the Chinese.
>> Oh, the direct usage of japanese karate forms doesn't give you a clue?
>> Perchance the early forms of the korean arts that became tkd, in their
>> techniques (that are straight from japanese karate), that doesn't help?
>> Maybe the changing histories of the various "founders" of tkd, that
>> originally show a link to karate, but now amazingly don't have any
>> connections at all?
> Your statement indicates that you have proof of the form and practice of Taekyon, Subak,
> and the Hwarang. I find that interesting. Further, you inanely attempt to imply that I
> indicated there is no connection. I have in fact stated specifically that we do not know
> just what the roots are. For example (and I'm not suggesting this is the case - try to
> read slowly) if the same Okinawans who introduced karate to Japan introduced it in Korea,
> then the source would not be Japanese at all, even though the techniques were very similar
> or identical. You assume facts not in evidence, which is ignorant, but your right. It is
> entirely inappropriate for you to attempt to change what I have said into something
> altogether different.
How odd. Apparently you can't read. I didn't say that Taekyon and TKD
have no connection. What I said was that the original versions of TKD (or
more appropriately, what BECAME Taekwondo) were almost solidly versions of
karate. This changed over time. The koreans fairly solidly altered TKD
in its formative years (1950 on) ---- there are still similarities between
karate and TKD, and but TKD is obviously a seperate art. It was
influenced by many things in Korean culture, one of which was Taekyon.
HOWEVER, this doesn't change the initial fact of the art's inception,
at which time it was very much karate, for the most part.
MOST importantly, it would be highly idiotic for anyone to attempt to say
TKD was from "the art of Hwarangdo" ---for several reasons.
The Hwa Rang Do wasn't an art. It was a group of people. More precisely,
it was a group of people who among other things, practiced some fighting
techniques. However, they studied many things also. And while they did
study unarmed techniques, they also spent much time studying weapons
techniques (which was intelligent of them, considering the time).
No direct line of martial arts knowledge from the Hwa Rang Do exists in
this time. I suggest you speak to historians about that one also.
For more information, I suggest you do some of that research you haven't
done yet.
> To recap, the point I made earlier is that we do not know (precisely) the arts that were
> practiced in Korea which led to the form and function of what is now taekwondo. At no time
> did I indicate that it is not karate-influenced; I did say that I tend to believe those
> Koreans I know who were there - although I did not say what they have said to me.
Your comments were directly against someone who said tkd was karate based.
You further said you have done no research yourself, but simply believed
what you were told.
You then put down people who had down research, simply because of their
ethnic background.
Do tell, what amazing things DO you believe about the origins of TKD?
>> > There does seem to be consensus that the Japanese got the art from the Okinawans, who
>> > got it from the Chinese, who got it from the Indians. How true this is is also open
>> > to conjecture.
>> Wasn't commenting on that at all. Don't attempt to argue by changing the
>> topic, or the range of the topic.
> Imprimus, I was not arguing with you; I did not take up a contrary position. I simply
> pointed out that we don't know much more than what we are told, and hoped to help folks
> here recall that history is written by the victors, i.e. not to believe all that you
> read. This does not seem to be to difficult to understand, and you even allude to it
> somewhat yourself, albeit only with respect to what does not coincide with your own beliefs
> on the subject.
[sigh] The number of people who make statements based on "what they are
told" as opposed to what facts are known is legion. I find it amusing
that your comments about history above are exactly wrong---"History is
written by the victors" --- except in this case, history was rewritten by
the losers. (Being a statement of the results of war, as opposed to a
personal comment.)
The korean culture has almost completely managed to eradicate japan from
its history. It has done the same thing to martial arts history.
> Secundus, the point of my statement above, while perhaps somewhat obsequious, is that the
> entire argument raging in the newsgroup and elsewhere is somewhat moot; for example, what
> do you feel is so important about TKD acknowledging that its' roots are in Japanese karate,
> and are you as vociferous in demanding the Japanese acknowledge the Okinawan roots of their
> practice, and in turn the Okinawans acknowledge the Chinese, etc.? What is the crux of the
> argument? Do you wish to ultimately pay homage to the Indian martial arts, and have others
> do the same, or will you stop in Japan? What do you wish to achieve by attacking others
> here with this rationale?
Actually, I don't really care. I just despise sloppy thinking, and the
"TKD is thousands of years old, based on the ancient Hwarangdo" myth ranks
right up there with the "the belts go from white to black because in old
times, the more you worked, the darker it got, etc..."
My comments were the origins of TKD. The further lineage wasn't something
I was particularly concerned with.
>> > Perhaps a bit of self-control is in order; the self-righteous opinions being bandied
>> > about in this venue do not reflect well on we practitioners.
>> Indeed. I recommend that to you, as well as the brains to simply look at
>> the facts. [1]
>> [1] Yes, I have an attitude---but sloppy thinking bugs me, and people who
>> automatically parrot the words of their instructors without thinking about
>> their meaning jump to the top of my list.
> I have parroted nothing; nor have I given voice to my own opinions on the matter, except to
> say that I tend to believe those people who 1.) were there, and 2.) have spoken to me about
> it. You not only don't know what they have said to me, you don't know who they are; yet
> you have indicated I have engaged in sloppy thinking, having decided what my opinion is.
What, saying that caucasians who have done research don't have any idea,
and you prefer to believe hearsay? That isn't sloppy? Directly from your
words.
> Are you in high school yet?
Have you thought on your own yet?
Ez040198
Well, if you must be that precise, then Hwarang Do is an art. That is why it
has "do" at the end to signify the way. The Hwarang warriors of ancient Korea,
specifically the Silla kingdom were an elite noblemen class/warrior group that
led the way for Silla to conquer its neighboring kingdoms.
Also, although there is Japanese influence in TKD, there is just as much
influence from the Korean art of Taekyon and other Chinese arts. I could tell
you right now, my master from Korea studied Moo Duk Kwan in Manchuria (China)
and after the Japanese left Korea, came back to Korea to serve his country.
Moo Duk Kwan has heavy influence from Chinese arts as well as Korean arts. If
you remember your TKD history, TKD is a derivative of the main Kwans of Korea
and its birth was an attempted unification of these Kwans under one curriculum.
Of course that really never happened. But nonetheless, TKD did come from
various forms of Kwans such as Moo Duk Kwan and JiDo Kwan and others.
I am sure that Japanese arts did influence heavily the other Kwans but I am
also sure that some Kwans were more influenced by Chinese arts rather than
Japanese (being they did learn and study in Manchuria). As for Korean martial
arts being Japanese in origin is wrong. They were influenced by japanese
martial arts but to say that the origins were japanese is inaccurate. In fact,
most Moo Duk Kwan masters have family trees that extend as far as 500 years ago
(and yes, they are Koreans and Chinese) that traces its lineage to its current
of development.
EZ
Jane Southworth
It was in the kingdom of Silla (57 B.C. - 936 A.D.) which existed along the
southeastern portion of the Korean peninsula, that the Korean martial art
forms
reached their highest level yet. Silla unified the Three Kingdoms and,
after
taking over paekje in 668 A.D. and Koguryo in 670 A.D., held contorl for
three
centuries. A military, educational and social organization started by King
Jin
Heung, and kown as the Haw Rang Do, played a major role in the unifying of
the
Three Kingdoms. The Hwa RAnd Do was made up of youths of noble families,
devoted to cultivating mind and body in order to better serve Silla. The
Martial spirit represented by the Hwa Rang Do "become the root of Sillas'
national morality and strength." They followed a code of honor comprised of
rigid loyalty to the nation, respect and obedience to one's partens,
unswerving
loyalty to friends, courage in battle and prudence on using violence or
taking
life. .... the Hwa Rang Do trained in all forms of martial
skills, incluing an unarmed fighting form known as Soo Bak, which they
refined
into a highly effective series of combative movements.
to which
>John A. Wielmaker wrote in message >
> ....are you quite sure that Hwarang-do isn't an ancient martial art that
the korean > military learnt from the Chinese and
>after adapting it to suit their needs bought home and tought to the rest of
>their miltary....sort of around the time of the early 6th century - Under
>Queen Songduk, shortly after the 3 major kingdoms of Korea had first been
united
No need to post any info on the three kingdoms!
1. The Yamato (Japanese) conquered parts of Southern Korea in the 5th
century and became rich on the tribute they forced the Korean kings to pay.
The tribute and influenced ceased around the end of the 5th century.
2. From 265 to 317 China was largely united under the Western Chin. After
this period the north divided into many small states (although culturally
related) under waves of nomadic invaders / settlers. The east and south were
largely united undr the Eastern Chin. The north (the area closest to korea)
remained fragmented until in 581 Yang Chien seized power and re-united China
under the Sui dynasty. Under Yang Chien and his son Yang Di who suceeded him
China became influential. Key events: Great Wall of China, 607 (built by the
1 million + political dissidents, objectors etc.), spread of Buddishm
through china along the Silk roads.
(Note however that the Sui capital, Chang'an was over 1000 miles from
Korea.)
Although the Sui dynasty collapsed (rebellion, Yang di killed) it was
suceeded by the influential Tang Dynasty (618-906) which extended China's
empire between 660-680. The Tang effectively controlled many of the silk
roads linking China to Persia and the Mediterranean which encouraged the
spread of ideas (eg. polo, the stirrup introduced to Europe, mainstay of
Carolingian heavy cavalry etc.). their influence also extended east to Korea
and Japan. Additional capitals were established eh. Taiyuan c. 50 miles from
Korea.
3. The Silla monarchy sought to unify the three kingdoms by introducing
common concepts throughout the land. (For those unfamiliar with early korean
history there were 3 kingdoms whose borders until the unification of 668 had
been fairly fluid). The korean alphabet is possibly the best example - I
would need to check it's date of introduction to be 100% sure - an example
of taking something deemed to be the best, improving it (from their
perspective) and introducing it. (Simplistically: Chinese style caligraphy
was replaced by a 24 letter roman aphabet established by scholars at the
instruction of the monarchy).
Summary:
The Yamato, a warlike Japanese tribe, conquered parts of southern Korea and
claimed tribute until c. the end of the 5th century. Korea was eventually
united under the southern Silla. Silla sort to unify the country, with
evidence that they imported best practise. There is evidence that ideas were
flowing out of China. The influence of China was significant at the time of
unification. Which tends to support both of the above, although whether the
Hwa Rang Do were a group or it was a style (or both?) i can't say.
Which lends a nice angle on the which style influenced which style debate
over a thousand years later. Needless to say the exact facts are harder to
pin down when (None of which detracts from the TKD today is what TKD is
statement of fact but history can enrich and educate us).
Chris
Filmagic01
>
>> Taekowndo has its roots in Hanguk mudo. Not Japanese anything.
>> Anyone who uses Japanese terminology in a Hanguk dojang is seriously
>> confused.
>
>- - - - - - - - -
>
>I'm confused. I have sources that say Taekwondo DID derive from
>Japanese/Okinawan roots. Also, if Taekwondo has no roots in Japanese karate,
>why do Taekwondo's early forms (historically speaking) correspond to the
>Shorin-Ryu/Shotokan forms?
Only a moron would say TKD has it's roots in something called hanguk mudo. You
are absolutely correct, Mr. Wheeler. It is basically a dumbed down version of
karate as practiced by some 2 dans when they returned to Korea.
--
* Having control over myself is nearly as good as having control over others.
Filmagic01
>
>oh my...this is pretty sad. tkd started LONG before even karate
>started...please get your facts straight
>
practice your korean phrases. You're too stupid to understand.
Filmagic01
>It is simply not true to say that taekwondo is based on karate...is it
>really the case that Korea during the Japanese occupation so loved their
>userpers that they dropped hundreds and hundreds of years of proud
>tradition, adopted karate as a mark of respect to the people occupuing their
>country and jusst gave it a different name....doesn't ring true to me.....
>
Filmagic01
> Modern students would also do well to study
>and live by this code of honor followed by the Hwa Rang Do, as an
>undersatnding
>of this philosophy is still an essential part of mastering Tae Kwon Do.
>
What does having to learn some revisionist nonsense for which there is no
historical record have to do with learning to drop your arms and kick a guy in
the chest? Get a clue.
Filmagic01
>quite right CC...I did get a bit carried away but it was the stubborn
>assertation that taekwondo is karate.....got me wound up.
Okay, I'm willing to let you prove you're not a moron. What are the major
differences between TKD and Karate, and when did they originate?
Filmagic01
>Taekyon had all but died in Korea, but more importantly, the people who
>founded the styles that later became TKD didn't practice TaeKyon, or at
>the very least, didn't practice them long.
>
>It became common, after the occupation, for korean instructors to add
>"also a master of taekyon" to whatever advertisements they were creating
>to collect students. Considering the occupation, it isn't surprising that
>the Koreans wanted NO connection with the Japanese, and thus attributing
>their martial knowledge to something innately Korean was a good tactic.
>
early missionaries, claim it was played both in Korea and Japan, and describe
something that is a far cry from "Korean Karate".
Filmagic01
>
>you could say that i'm influenced by America. But that doesn't make me say
>that i'm from America. I'm from korea. my roots and culture is korean, even
>with influence of America.
>
made an exception. Now, since you seem really stupid, and don't get things the
first twenty times, I'm going to make it easy on you... As we all know, there
were newspapers, ect. in Korea prior to the Japanese occupation, there were
newspapers during the occupation, and the Japanese were meticulous record
keepers. Can you find one pre-occupation record of this great national sport of
yours? No. Why? Because there aren't any.
Filmagic01
>Pardon me if I am being ignorant here, but wasn't Tang Soo Do named thus as
>an acknowledgement to its routes. ie it was learnt by Korean peoples and
>based entirely on the martial arts of northern china.....isn't that why its
>called Tang Soo Do, or did I just dream this or something....
Most likely.
>Please tell me that you aren't suggesting that in the Tang Dynasty there
>where people in northern China teaching karate to Koreans....surely not.....
Actually it was when the Korean soldiers were in Manchuria, in the Japanese
Imperial Army.
Filmagic01
>I am sure that Japanese arts did influence heavily the other Kwans but I am
>also sure that some Kwans were more influenced by Chinese arts rather than
>Japanese (being they did learn and study in Manchuria).
From Japanese soldiers....
As for Korean
>martial
>arts being Japanese in origin is wrong.
It takes a special sort of idiot to make a statement such as this.
Congratulations. Most of the founders of TKD have at one time or another
disagreed with you.
>most Moo Duk Kwan masters have family trees that extend as far as 500 years
>ago
>
They've made the stuff up to sell it to gullible foreigners. Originally it was
Tang So Do Moo duk kwan, and even the workout was the JKA workout. In many
schools it still is.
I'll give you an assignment... how would you say Song Moo Kwan in Japanese?
If you don't know, ask one of these ancient Korean grandmasters. I've never met
one that didn't know.
Ez040198
>>also sure that some Kwans were more influenced by Chinese arts rather than
>>Japanese (being they did learn and study in Manchuria).
>
>From Japanese soldiers....
>
> As for Korean
>>martial
>>arts being Japanese in origin is wrong.
>It takes a special sort of idiot to make a statement such as this.
>Congratulations. Most of the founders of TKD have at one time or another
>disagreed with you.
>
>>most Moo Duk Kwan masters have family trees that extend as far as 500 years
>>ago
>>
>
>They've made the stuff up to sell it to gullible foreigners. Originally it
>was
>Tang So Do Moo duk kwan, and even the workout was the JKA workout. In many
>schools it still is.
>
>I'll give you an assignment... how would you say Song Moo Kwan in Japanese?
>If you don't know, ask one of these ancient Korean grandmasters. I've never
>met
>one that didn't know.
You know, you really are a moron. First of all, Tang Soo Do came AFTER the
creation of Moo Duk Kwan. In fact, MDK has two factions. Yes two factions.
One call themselves TKD and the other Tang Soo Do and this split was for
political reasons. Secondly, TKD is a conglomeration of arts and to say it is
of Japanese origin is inaccurate. You want to compare techniques, go ahead.
Don't give me that crap that Japanese shotokan kicks look even remotely like
TKD kicks. Oh, they changed them later! Please. Go find a real MDK
grandmaster and he'll show you the kicks he learned in China.
As for that Song Moo Kwan assignment. Probably means shotokan huh. And as I
said earlier that some of the Kwans WERE of japanese origin.
You know, I stopped reading rec.martial arts to get away from trolls like you.
You pretty much use the word idiot and moron pretty frequently. I guess
everyone is a gullible foreigner to you. Well, if you are korean then you know
what i'm saying. Nu nun nu moo ba bo ya. Got that. Or should i insult you in
Japanese, Anata wa baka desu. See, pretty easy to insult somebody. Doesn't
take much talent.
Filmagic01
>
>You know, you really are a moron. First of all, Tang Soo Do came AFTER the
>creation of Moo Duk Kwan.
Hardly. They were at one time the same thing. Go ask someone who's not trying
to make a quick buck off you.
>In fact, MDK has two factions. Yes two factions
We were discussing the origins of Korean Karate, not how many 8 dans it takes
to divide up the dollars.
.
>One call themselves TKD and the other Tang Soo Do and this split was for
>political reasons. Secondly, TKD is a conglomeration of arts and to say it
>is
>of Japanese origin is inaccurate.
Prove it.
> You want to compare techniques, go ahead.
>Don't give me that crap that Japanese shotokan kicks look even remotely like
>TKD kicks. Oh, they changed them later! Please. Go find a real MDK
>grandmaster and he'll show you the kicks he learned in China.
When? What year did this MDK grandmaster learn the ancient Chinese secret
kicks? The kicks developed out of the tournament circuit of the 1970s, for the
most part.
>As for that Song Moo Kwan assignment. Probably means shotokan huh.
No kidding.
>You know, I stopped reading rec.martial arts to get away from trolls like
>you.
They ran you out because you don't know what you are talking about.
>You pretty much use the word idiot and moron pretty frequently.
There is a lot of call for it on this newsgroup. It should probably be renamed
alt.korean.historical.revision
> Well, if you are korean then you
>know
>what i'm saying. Nu nun nu moo ba bo ya.
Why are you offering to eat my dog?
> Got that. Or should i insult you
>in
>Japanese, Anata wa baka desu.
No, I don't want to buy your virgin 10 year old sister for a night.
Ez040198
Thats what i thought. Just a foreigner spewing whatever propoganda he reads.
Hahahahaha. Anyway here are some facts. Tang Soo Do was created by a man
called Hwang Kee. He chose that name because he learned in China. If you want
more evidence go read his book. Anyway, he of course neglects to recognize who
actually taught him his martial art. Yes, a bunch of Korean masters did who
taught MDK. Anyway, there were other masters who did not want to be a part of
his federation therefore split with him.
The other Korean MDK masters chose to be called TKD for political reasons. If
you've taken any tkd, you must realize that each dojang teaches a different way
to kick. That's of course dependent on the person teaching it. And yes my
Grandmaster learned in Manchuria. He was in fact a medal of honor recipient in
the Korean war. And if you think the kicks came out of 1970's circuit then
you really are ignorant. Go look for yourself in ANY MDK book. Hell make sure
you look at the copyright and get one before the 1970s. I'll guarantee you the
kicks these days are exactly the same as they were taught 30 years ago in any
MDK school.
Filmagic01
> And yes my
>Grandmaster learned in Manchuria. He was in fact a medal of honor recipient
>in
>the Korean war.
Exactly which part of the Korean war was fought in Manchuria?
Jhan312
During the Japanese occupation, many Koreans fled to Manchu to fight for the
independence (Manchu was also sort of Japanese control). After independence in
1945, many came back to Korea. The Korean started 6/25/50 and lasted about 3
years.
George Winter
This is an article on the historical connection between TKD & shotokan
karate posted in another MA Group. Perhaps it is of interest.
------
Tang Soo Do is for the most part, Shotokan Karate. Many believe that
GM Hwang Kee and the Moo Duk Kwan was the original kwan to use the
designation "Tang Soo Do". That is incorrect. During and immediately
after World War II, two kwans taught what they called "Tang Soo Do":
the Chung Do Kwan and the Song Moo Kwan. Two kwans, the Chosun Yun Moo
Kwan and the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu used the name "Kwon Bup". The Moo Duk
Kwan used the name "Hwa Soo Do" for its art. The term "Kong Soo Do"
wasn't used until after the Korean War, and the term "Tae Soo Do"
wasn't used until 1961.
Most Tang Soo Do stylists today trace their roots to the Moo Duk Kwan.
In his book, "The History of the Moo Duk Kwan", GM Hwang Kee says that
in May 1936, he travelled to Manchuria and learned chinese martial
arts from Master Yang, Kuk Jin. He studied with Master Yang until
August 1937, when he went back to Korea.
In 1941, GM Hwang Kee went back to Manchuria for a "short time to
visit Master Yang for instruction. This was the last time he was able
to enjoy Master Yang's instruction." Judging from the techniques shown
in his early books as well as some of the forms, GM Hwang most
probably learned Shaolin Long Fist from Master Yang, along with some
Tai Chi.
In 1939, GM Hwang began working in the Survey Department of the Chosun
Railway Bureau. There was a library at his working place and GM Hwang
found a book on Okinawan Karate. GM Hwang studied and learned Okinawan
Karate from these books.
Korea became an independent country on August 15, 1945. On November 9,
1945, GM Hwang Kee founded the Hwa Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, with three
students. All three quit after less than three months. GM Hwang tried
again with another group of five students, but they also all quit
after less than three months.
Discouraged, GM Hwang visited the Yun Moo Kwan (headed by GM Chun,
Sang Sup) and Chung Do Kwan (headed by GM Lee, Won Kuk) and made the
decision to "integrate the art of Tang Soo Do into the Hwa Soo Do
discipline." GM Hwang did this by becoming a student of the Chung Do
Kwan under GM Lee. He studied for six months, after which he started
up a new Moo Duk Kwan class in early 1947.
GM Hwang produced his first black belts in 1948, and the rest is
history.
The Tang Soo Do that GM Hwang learned from GM Lee at the Chung Do Kwan
was GM Lee's version of Shotokan Karate which he learned while a law
student at Chuo University in Japan. The Tang Soo Do that was taught
at the Song Moo Kwan was Song Moo Kwan founder Rho, Byung Jick's
version of the Shotokan he learned while also in Japan. Therefore, all
of the Tang Soo Do based arts, whether from the Chung Do Kwan, Song
Moo Kwan or Moo Duk Kwan (the only three schools that called their art
Tang Soo Do) are all korean interpretations of Shotokan Karate.
--
George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter gwi...@q-sys.com
Qsys Ltd.
Information Systems Consulting