Re: Steven Seagal takes credit for Anderson Silva's win
Mark-T
> Help me out here guys, but that's a prety rudimentary kick....
Hardly.
> In your opinion, is it because the front snap kick is
> rarely seen in MMA, that Vitor didn't see it coming?
> Or was it just Razzle Dazzle?
Both.
Apparently, nobody on this board has any experience
with this kick, which qualifies them as experts.... so
what else is new?
The mid-level front kick is standard in all the
so-called hard styles, but few can hurt you with
it. The ideal target is the solar plexus, which is
a KO shot, but most cannot reach even that high.
However, the top WUKO players are dangerous.
The front kick to the chin is gymnastics only. When
players try it in sparring - what Silva did - it's a joke.
They usually land on their ass, even competitors.
Conclusions:
o Connecting with a high front snap kick is not BASIC,
it's PHENOMENAL.
o mma training omits this tech almost entirely, except
for some rudimentary Muat Thai. Only the few with
a karate background even attempt it.
o 99.9 % of karate players cannot front kick
effectively - i.e. WITH EFFECT - above waist
level. They scoop it. or fail to get body weight
behind it, etc. Most cannot kick high at all.
o The tech, at any height, is useful mostly for
distraction. It does get the opponent's attention.
o You have to be Anderson Silva to make it work
at chin level.
o It's a highlight film when it does.
o Belfort deserves no discredit, as he never
saw it before, in training. It's not worth preparing against.
Mark
PS karotty roolz!
Greendistantstar
> On Feb 7, Mike<mkornecki2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Help me out here guys, but that's a prety rudimentary kick....
>
> Hardly.
Uh, yes it is.
>> In your opinion, is it because the front snap kick is
>> rarely seen in MMA, that Vitor didn't see it coming?
>> Or was it just Razzle Dazzle?
>
> Both.
>
> Apparently, nobody on this board has any experience
> with this kick, which qualifies them as experts.... so
> what else is new?
I do, and I said as much in my first reply.
> The mid-level front kick is standard in all the
> so-called hard styles, but few can hurt you with
> it. The ideal target is the solar plexus, which is
> a KO shot, but most cannot reach even that high.
> However, the top WUKO players are dangerous.
>
> The front kick to the chin is gymnastics only. When
> players try it in sparring - what Silva did - it's a joke.
> They usually land on their ass, even competitors.
>
> Conclusions:
> o Connecting with a high front snap kick is not BASIC,
> it's PHENOMENAL.
Nonsense.
> o mma training omits this tech almost entirely, except
> for some rudimentary Muat Thai. Only the few with
> a karate background even attempt it.
Nonsense.
> o 99.9 % of karate players cannot front kick
> effectively - i.e. WITH EFFECT - above waist
> level. They scoop it. or fail to get body weight
> behind it, etc. Most cannot kick high at all.
>
> o The tech, at any height, is useful mostly for
> distraction. It does get the opponent's attention.
It's that, and a distance-keeper; BJJ 101, and, dare I say it, TKD.
> o You have to be Anderson Silva to make it work
> at chin level.
>
> o It's a highlight film when it does.
>
> o Belfort deserves no discredit, as he never
> saw it before, in training. It's not worth preparing against.
Silva is phenomenal, and yes, it's rarely used to that degree of effectiveness, but it's hardly
non-defendable.
GDS
"Let's roll!"
usagi
I predicted something like this would happen over 10 years ago.
Pop quiz: If I said, that the earliest TMA fighters who lost in the
first UFCs, did so because they had never seen the techniques while
they were training, and then used that statement to conclude
"Therefore they are not worth preparing against"... I would have been
laughed off R.M-A.
Now, yes, I *was* laughed off R.M-A, but for a different, and much
more respectable reason. Point being, what you are saying sounds more
like apologetics than anything else.
What you will continue to see happen in MMA circles from now on is a
strong move back into traditional styles. The three main changes that
I predicted would start happening 10 years ago have already started.
1. You will see the standup game returning to the forefront of top
level MMA.
2. You will see more and more top fighters training traditionally and/
or with traditionalists. At first you will only hear big/famous names,
then you will start seeing nobodies (to the MMA world) and then it
will progress to just having trained in x or y traditional style for x
number of years. I'd say we are looking at a time horizon here of less
than 10 years.
3. The MMA people will take traditional styles and make them "MMA".
The main takeaway will be that you have to spar, and as a result
RANDORI and two person forms will be pushed hard over other forms of
traditional training such as single person forms, makiwara, and so
forth.
it will start slowly with single techniques that people drill being
combined into two person forms. It will be purt forth that it is more
efficient to train that way and it will follow into a sort of randori
style training. Then 5 to 15 years after that you will begin to see
medium and long length forms compiled from the shorter forms -- and
taken seriously -- at the top levels of MMA competition.
The final result of this is, of course, that MMA and "modern
sportfighting" will be completely sinified, swallowed up by Chinese
and other Asian martial art schools.
-
Mossingen
news:Y7Cdnb7eyrJA587Q...@westnet.com.au...
> On 10/02/2011 1:30 PM, Mark-T wrote:
>> On Feb 7, Mike<mkornecki2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Help me out here guys, but that's a prety rudimentary kick....
>>
>> Hardly.
>
> Uh, yes it is.
How so? The contact is with the ball of the foot rather than the heel,
correct? Silva knocked out another man doing that. The delivery of that
kick would seem to me to require a great deal of skill under any conditions,
much less in a real fight before an live and PPV audience. That move was
stunning.
On what basis do you claim it's rudimentary? If your claim is that it's
rudimentary because it's taught at low levels (but not used at high levels),
then your position is direct conflict with Seagal's since his claim is that
virtually no one knows about that kick the way he teaches it.
If your claim is that it's rudimentary because it's a simple kick, then I
don't think you understand at all how it works.
>>> In your opinion, is it because the front snap kick is
>>> rarely seen in MMA, that Vitor didn't see it coming?
>>> Or was it just Razzle Dazzle?
>>
>> Both.
>>
>> Apparently, nobody on this board has any experience
>> with this kick, which qualifies them as experts.... so
>> what else is new?
>
> I do, and I said as much in my first reply.
Now, wait a minute. Seagal said that he has tweaked the technique from the
kick he learned in Japan 30-40 years ago. Are you saying you have
experience with simple front kicks (using the ball of the foot) or are you
saying you have experience with the way Seagal teaches it?
From your statements on this subject, I am skeptical of your claims that you
have experience with this kick.
>> The mid-level front kick is standard in all the
>> so-called hard styles, but few can hurt you with
>> it. The ideal target is the solar plexus, which is
>> a KO shot, but most cannot reach even that high.
>> However, the top WUKO players are dangerous.
>>
>> The front kick to the chin is gymnastics only. When
>> players try it in sparring - what Silva did - it's a joke.
>> They usually land on their ass, even competitors.
>>
>> Conclusions:
>> o Connecting with a high front snap kick is not BASIC,
>> it's PHENOMENAL.
>
> Nonsense.
How so?
I'd say phenomenal is a great descriptor. You have to admit you were very
surprised to see Silva even attempt that, and then even more wowed when it
actually worked to end the fight. I can't recall ever seeing that in an MMA
fight.
>> o mma training omits this tech almost entirely, except
>> for some rudimentary Muat Thai. Only the few with
>> a karate background even attempt it.
>
> Nonsense.
How so?
>> o 99.9 % of karate players cannot front kick
>> effectively - i.e. WITH EFFECT - above waist
>> level. They scoop it. or fail to get body weight
>> behind it, etc. Most cannot kick high at all.
>>
>> o The tech, at any height, is useful mostly for
>> distraction. It does get the opponent's attention.
>
> It's that, and a distance-keeper; BJJ 101, and, dare I say it, TKD.
>
>> o You have to be Anderson Silva to make it work
>> at chin level.
>>
>> o It's a highlight film when it does.
>>
>> o Belfort deserves no discredit, as he never
>> saw it before, in training. It's not worth preparing against.
>
> Silva is phenomenal, and yes, it's rarely used to that degree of
> effectiveness, but it's hardly non-defendable.
No one said it's "non-defendable." This entire discussion has centered
around whether Seagal taught it to ASS.
Pierre Honeyman
wrote:
If Belfort had simply closed the hole in his arms he would have
defended against this kick. That said, I think he was expecting to
just take it on the chest or midsection. But it's easy for me to see
what happened after seeing it in super-slo-mo about a hundred times.
Probably much less easy for Belfort.
Pierre
Mossingen
news:59ba6b42-66a0-4094...@y35g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>If Belfort had simply closed the hole in his arms he would have
>defended against this kick. That said, I think he was expecting to
>just take it on the chest or midsection. But it's easy for me to see
>what happened after seeing it in super-slo-mo about a hundred times.
>Probably much less easy for Belfort.
Sure, but the same can be said about any technique. They're all defensible
if you know they are coming in slow motion. That's why GDS's statement
doesn't mean anything.
That's also why Seagal was brilliant for conceiving that the kick would work
against Belfort and advising ASS to do it. The kick was so unexpected and
so expertly delivered that no one saw it coming. Yet, for some reason no
one wants to give Seagal any props for it. Strange.
Pierre Honeyman
> "Pierre Honeyman" <pear...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I think we're all just deeply suspicious that a guy like Steven Seagal
actually has anything useful to teach a guy like Anderson Silva. I
know that's my reason for, um, confusion at this point I guess. My
*assumption* has been that Anderson Silva has more practical MMA
knowledge than Seagal does, and I have a hard time figuring out what
practical advice/training/techniques a guy like Seagal could be
teaching a guy like Silva. Clearly Silva sees it differently, and he's
the only one that matters!
Pierre
Mhoram
Pierre
*********************
Even the top guys still bring in various experts to help them fine-tune
their game. See below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3N5Rnx37O0
Greendistantstar
I'll sum up my position. The kick itself is taught by several MA's, which I have mentioned.
Silva's *delivery* of the kick is a tweak that anyone other than Silva would have found difficult to
do. Seagal helped him tweak it...good for him, good for both of them.
The front kick is generally a distance-creating technique, also useful if your opponent has a longer
arm reach. Silva's dimensions and attributes are such that he could deliver the kick offensively.
But the MMA world isn't suddenly going to be rushing out to learn Aikido, which Sinophile nuthuggers
like Oliver Richman would have us believe.
GDS
"Let's roll!"
Pierre Honeyman
All the top guys bring in experts to help them fine tune their game,
I, personally, have a problem considering Seagal an "expert." That's
all.
Pierre
Greendistantstar
Yup, that sums it up pretty well.
GDS
"Let's roll!"
usagi
In the beginning you had people from strip mall dojos who didn't
really spar enter the UFC and get destroyed by, essentially, high
school wrestling.
Later on "Ninjas" and "Karate Black Belts in White Gis" stopped
entering the UFC. Things moved towards a more streamlined, BJJ-
oriented (although BJJ was not the only grappling and/or
groundfighting discipline) plateau.
The main problem with what happened is that people assumed traditional
arts were all bullshit because the people who were fighting in the UFC
and what not really weren't fighters at all. Here, take a look at this
Tai Chi video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PKWaECjf-I
As a Tai Chi expert let me point out that this guy, if this is his
skill, would get destroyed in the ring with any decent MMA fighter.
First, he demonstrates no closing skill. Secondly even if he speeds up
his movement his range isn't any greater than anyone else's and his
mechanics are outward stretch and up and down, which is flawed because
there's no real emphasis on waist power.
I also don't need to mention that not only do these people not spar,
they never even drill with a partner.
So what's the point. The point is, the guy can't fight but he's doing
Tai Chi. The MMA crowd looks at this guy and thinks "Tai Chi sucks".
But that's not logical. Within Tai Chi and many other traditional
martial arts there is actually a hell of a lot for even a top MMA
fighter to learn. There are however several big problems preventing
TMA from moving into the world of MMA or for a MMA fighter to get
involved with TMA.
1. TMA people generally do not want to train the way MMA people train.
Even the hardcore TMA people are more aligned with "doing more forms"
or (dare I say it) training with heavier weapons. They generally don't
spar and fight more. They may spar and fight. But as an afterthought.
The main focus is on forms.
2. Those few who enjoy focusing on two person exercises do just that;
and they almost never spar or fight.
3. Who would the MMA people train with? There are a lot of places you
can go and not learn anything. It can take a long time to find someone
who knows what they are doing. And here's a big problem, it is often
not possible for a beginner to determine if someone knows something
valuable or not because they often look like the guy in the video
above.
4. More often than not you have to "steal" someone's kung fu; they may
not even be aware that they know something valuable.
So long story.. yeah.. made short.. what you are seeing now is top MMA
guys taking a second look at TMA, FINDING SOMETHING VALUEABLE,
training the FUCK out of it, making it real, and then using it. But
when you look what they are actually doing, when you see it come off,
it looks just like TMA.
The big lesson here is not actually that MMA has a lot to learn from
TMA, which it does. No, although that is a huge lesson in and of
itself.
The big lesson here is that TMA people need to wake the fuck up.
Thank god I found good people to train with in Toronto, but shit, it
took me over 6 years to find them, and I was visiting a different
school every other week.
-
usagi
wrote:
> On 11/02/2011 3:16 AM, Mossingen wrote:
>
>
>
*shrug* I was right, but it took something like 10 years for it to
come out.
And I'll be right in another 10 years. And now, you laugh, just like
you did 10 years ago.
-
Greendistantstar
Right about what? If you want to see this kick used prior to Silva, go to the first few UFCs. You'll
see Royce use it, and he very nearly lands it in exactly the same way. The fact that occassionally a
low % tech works doesn't validate its use in a general sense.
> And I'll be right in another 10 years.
Right about what?
> And now, you laugh, just like
> you did 10 years ago.
Ollie, being right once every decade is a low % technique.
GDS
"Let's roll!"
Rabid Weasel Lawson
> *shrug* I was right, but it took something like 10 years for it to
> come out.
>
> And I'll be right in another 10 years. And now, you laugh, just like
> you did 10 years ago.
Right about what?
The front kick gets used in MMA on a rare but regular basis, usually
as a distancing tool, as Peter says, though I've also seen it used as
a sort of "Stop Thrust" to arrest the opponent's forward momentum.
The fact that Silva is some sort of preternatural predator or an alien
or something is neither news nor a radical game changer. He's just
really that freaking good.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
usagi
> On Feb 11, 7:58 am, usagi <oliver.rich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > *shrug* I was right, but it took something like 10 years for it to
> > come out.
>
> > And I'll be right in another 10 years. And now, you laugh, just like
> > you did 10 years ago.
>
> Right about what?
That we would eventually see top MMA people training with
traditionalists because they would recognize value in TMA.
-