Studying Martial Arts & Real World Application
Miles
Hello all, I'm 20 years old and bummed out I never got into Martial Arts
as
a kid.. Now I've decided to get into it.. I'm asking for opinions on what a
good
martial art to join for my particular application. I'm not asking which one
is " better "
but for me I want to be able to use it in the real world to defend myself
and as a good
workout. With self defense being prevailent since I go to the gym for my
workout
already. So far what I've heard is Jujitsu or Tae Kwon Do would be good for
this.
Any and all ideas are welcomed... thanks in advance
Tristan (soon to be Bruce Lee)
Will Goodwin
far as Ju-Jitsu it does have a good degree, but it seems(from my
observations and the acception being BJJ) it is meant for larger people. As
far as Tae-Kwon-Do, there is a large controversy about this(almost as much
controversy as the lies about it's origin(I hope I don't start a flame war
because of that statement)). There are honestly two kinds of TKD, sport and
traditional. I personally am not in support of anything based for
sport(although I do compete in Traditional Karate Tournaents). Traditional
TKD does have some good basis for Self-Defense, if you practice properly.
Most Traditional Karate styles (Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu,
Shorin-Ryu, etc...) have a strong basis in self-defense, despite peoples
arguments about that. When it boils down to it it ultimately is up to you
and what fits your body type. Welcome to the newsgroup and good luck in
seeking the Martial Way.
Will Goodwin
"Miles" <mile...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ovlga.760$d4.128@fed1read03...
story
one
> is " better "
> but for me I want to be able to use it in the real world to defend myself
> and as a good
> workout. With self defense being prevailent since I go to the gym for my
> workout
You haven't really given us enough to go on. what size are you? What is your
personality like. Do you want to do a lot of sparring & if so how hard. Is
self defense a real priority & how soon so you want the art to give you this
capability ( Aikido for example is good for this but it does take longer to
become competent with it )
> already. So far what I've heard is Jujitsu or Tae Kwon Do would be good
for
> this.
> Any and all ideas are welcomed... thanks in advance
Which particular style of Jujitsu?? Bjj is asking for trouble. The ground in
a crouded bar is NOT where you want to be. TKD is problematic as there are
Mc Dojangs all over the place & you can get told you are slicker than a
gooses insides & then find out the hard way that they meant the contents of
a gooses insides. This is not the case with a good Dojang BTW.
..............................Tom..............................
Miles
Well Im 5'10, medium build 160lbs... Im athletic, I want to be more
flexible, have better balance, and be able to defend against larger
opponents. Medium sparring would be good.. When I get involved
in something I usually stick to it.. so I want to make the right choice
I don't know of different types of Jujitsu, I've just heard that would be
a good one for my application... also I agree on the point of Akido being
good for defense I have read that on some websites. I haven't considered
it to much because Im reading that its a lot of throws and using
momentum/weight
against opponents. They seem like very good tactics but initially I would
like to learn Strong Kicks and punching strikes and combinations.. Maybe
some Locks also. Does that help a little more ? All opinions are
appreciated...
"story" <storys@no spam.execulink.com> wrote in message
news:v844692...@corp.supernews.com...
Mike Dobony
Systems women's and children's personal safety/self-defense. There is one
problem with all the martial arts. They almost always "fight" from a static
position. You know, face each other, bow, ready, GO! That is NOT the way
confrontations go. I used the Redman2000 suit
(http://www.rad-systems.com/package.html has a picture of the old suit with
a student attacking) and gave my TKD students a shot at some more realistic
confrontations. They did very poorly the first time through. They did some
great techniques, but they were ineffective because of the lack of training
in dynamic fighting like they would encounter on the streets. Their kicks
were cut short because I moved into range too fast and they were used to
exchanging kicks in a staged, carefully controlled confrontation. They
almost always caught me with the knee instead of the foot. Boxing matches
are staged. MA matches are staged. Street fights are not staged. If you
want self-defense, find a studio that uses the Redman2000 on a regular
basis. All the martial arts have their strengths and weakness. They all
teach good techniques, but don't always apply them in a useful manner when
applied to street self-defense.
Honestly, the best defense is a confident and alert attitude. Be observant
of the things going on around you and look at the people around you.
Acknowledge they are there. Be confident, like you belong there. The
physical stuff is only about 10% of self-defense. The rest, the bulk, is
attitude along with risk reduction, risk awareness, risk recognition, and
risk avoidance.
--
Mike D.
Remove .spamnot to respond by email
--
"Listen, kid. A[n Olympic] gold medal is a
wonderful thing. But if you aren't enough without it,
believe me, you'll never be enough with it."
From the movie "Cool Runnings."
"Miles" <mile...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ovlga.760$d4.128@fed1read03...
>
>
Paul Maybury
Go to rec.martial-arts and look up the FAQ. Read it, and see what appeals
to you. If you want to learn to punch and kick, you have many choices,
including those you have mentioned. Generally, the effectiveness tends to
depend more on the instructor and the student than on the style. That said,
some striking systems which tend to be effective quickly are Muay Tai (lots
of elbow and knee strikes included) and the various Filipino Martial Arts
(Kali - as seen in the new movie The Hunted - Escrima, Arnis, etc.), which
look at stick and blade fighting as integral to the style. Aikido can be a
very effective art, more evasion than direct confrontation. Unfortunately
for your goals, it does tend to take longer to be 'street-effective'. You
could try Judo first (it tends to be everywhere and relatively cheap), which
will give you some good stand-up grappling which can be more effective in
most situations than striking.
As others have said, to be effective on a real confrontation, you have to
prepare (i.e. train) for it. See what is in your area, take a look at a few
classes, and try one out that appeals to you. And don't expect to be a
tough street fighter after 6 easy classes.
tpm
story
>
> Well Im 5'10, medium build 160lbs... Im athletic, I want to be more
> flexible, have better balance, and be able to defend against larger
> opponents. Medium sparring would be good.. When I get involved
> in something I usually stick to it.. so I want to make the right choice
> I don't know of different types of Jujitsu, I've just heard that would be
> a good one for my application... also I agree on the point of Akido being
> good for defense I have read that on some websites. I haven't considered
> it to much because Im reading that its a lot of throws and using
> momentum/weight
> against opponents. They seem like very good tactics but initially I would
> like to learn Strong Kicks and punching strikes and combinations.. Maybe
> some Locks also. Does that help a little more ? All opinions are
> appreciated...
>
O.K. A good TKD school if you can find one would be good. Unfortunately
today ( assuming you are in North America ) a good TKD school can be a tad
hard to find for a beginner. Next I would recommend a good traditional
Karate school. I say traditional as many of the non-traditional schools are
as bad as the worst of the TKD Mc Dojangs. As for the Jujitsu there are MANY
styles. Some include striking & others do not. Some include grappling and
others do not. Thus you should observe a few classes to begin with. Take the
trial period if it is offered ( these apply to whatever style ) Now ask
questions. Observe both beginners & the advanced students. Can you learn in
the beginners class? Can you see yourself as one of the advanced students at
this given dojo? I'd stay away from things like Muay Thai. It's a pure sport
like boxing. Yes it can be effective for self defense but at base it is a
sport with all that that implies. Depending on where you are Silat is
another alternative. Look into Kodokan Karate and Meibukan karate. They
would fit your body type just fine. Both involve kicking, punching and some
grappling. One caveat here. This is a journey NOT a destination. Don't
expect to become a bad assed fighter after six easy lessons. Don't expect to
get your Blackbelt in a couple of years quit for six and still be able to
fight at the end of it all. Once you start you cannot stop if you want to
maintain your skills. You can do this into extreme old age. Yagi Meitoku (
tenth dan Hanshi Meibukan Goju Ryu ) trained until just before his death
this year. He would have been 92 on his next birthday. I'm 55 myself and
probably in better shape than 90% of most 20 year olds out there. However I
train all the time.
...............................Tom................................
Miles Pro
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b5tb14$jgo$1...@ins22.netins.net...
Some good points from everyone.. this is very helpful!
DANIEL JAMES GAISH
key to staying safe.
Put yourself in the position of a mugger, attacker, etc: Do you attack the
person who is walking confidently with their head up, or the person who is
looking at the floor? As long as you don't cause trouble, and if you are
confident, trouble will avoid you. Most of the time!
In terms of what to train in, it depends what you want, as other people have
said. It sounds like you want some simple basic skills to help you protect
yourself in an emergency. For that purpose, I would recommend boxing or
wrestling, which would both give you valuable basic skills and a high degree
of fitness training. If you want to start something for life, then I would
recommend any of the main-stream martial arts. I train in Shotokan karate
and it's a good all-rounder: kicking, punching, blocking, evasion, holding,
grappling, different distances, self-defence. I would also recommend any
kung-fu style, which is excellent for strength training and learning to
control your opponent in a confined space. I have also tried judo, which is
great fun!
Hope that helps.
-Dan
Habanero
>like to learn Strong Kicks and punching strikes and combinations.. Maybe
>some Locks also. Does that help a little more ? All opinions are
>appreciated...
Take a look at what American Kenpo Karate has to offer, its a blend of
systems. It was the locks bit made me think of this.One advantage of
this system is you wont have to learn japanese, korean or chinese.(not
that thyis is a bad thing) Again like any style there are good schools
and there are bad schools
whatever you choose,
happy journey.
Lord Phoenix
> training and learning to control your opponent in a confined space.
The problem with kung-fu is the same as Aikido [real/good kung-fu]. It will
take a while to be proficient enough to use.
Lord Phoenix
trophy display. That would gear you for the wrong situation, ie.
tournament. When I first started looking around one guy I knew from school
actually owned a school which taught jujitsu [real/japanese], aikijujitsu,
aikido, kenjitsu, modern knife fighting, combat rapier fighting and some
other stuff. They had a competition kick boxing team of students that
joined in order to compete but that was it. When I asked how their rank
system worked [being multiple arts and all] he just looked at me. Then he
replied with something like "Rank doesn't matter. Its your ability that
matters." (They do have a ranking system by the way...) That is the
attitude you want from a school. Not these TKD rank factories that have 20
different belt colors and 3-5 stripes per belt [exaggerated of course]. I
never got around to studying with him and now cannot but I want to
eventually.
Okinawan Goju Ryo Karate is also good for street fighting. At least where I
train is...
As far as what Mr. Goodman said about jujitsu being for larger people, the
instructor I know who does it [damn effectively] is quite small. But I am
talking about japanese jujitsu (the traditional battlefield form, quite
deadly if you want it to be) not brazilian/gracie jujitsu [sometimes spelled
jiujitsu].
Will Goodwin
said though, it was from my observations so don't take my word for it, there
is more that I have not seen.
As far as the trophies comment, be careful about judging a school for what
is in it's windows. The dojo in which I train does have a few trophies on
display in it's windows but if you ever walked into the dojo and talked to
my sensei one of the first things he would tell you is that it doesn't
matter how many times you win at tournaments, your self-defense techniques
come first.
Just my two cents.
~Will Goodwin(not Goodman)
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
news:b62lj4$lo4$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
Lord Phoenix
Sorry, I guess when I looked back at your name I did not pay very good
attention. Whoops... Sorry...
Will Goodwin
graduation from trade school(glad they didn't do it on my certificate)
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
news:b63a6f$8b$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
Mike Dobony
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
That is exactly why I became a RAD instructor. After 9-12 hours of
training, using simple techniques (gross vs. fine motor skills) our students
have learned enough to reasonably defend themselves. Even the female police
officers feel safer when out of uniform. Testimonies range from "simple"
escapes to one in which the attacker was found cowering under the front
steps. The police simply followed the blood trail to him. She was shaking,
but basically unharmed (Always some sore muscles and some bruises when in a
physical confrontation). He was already under a restraining order to stay
away from her.
Then again, it is not a substitute for long term training. That is why we
are the only (that I know of) self-defense/personal safety program that
offers FREE lifetime return and practice. Just bring your signed book and
you will never have to pay again, unless attending for college credit, of
course.
It is not a substitute for MA, but as a 2nd degree black belt, I feel it is
a much better base for personal safety than the average MA program is for
self-defense. As a martial artist I have a much larger cache of weapons
available to me, but RAD gave me a better base. We always encourage further
training and recommend MA to our students.
Matt Black
>
> That is exactly why I became a RAD instructor. After 9-12 hours of
> training, using simple techniques (gross vs. fine motor skills) our
students
> have learned enough to reasonably defend themselves. Even the female
police
> officers feel safer when out of uniform.
>
(I removed the cross-posting)
Mike, that sounds reasonable, and it must be what a lot of people are really
looking for.
Would you say that the greatest thing you teach is the awakening to the
awareness of possibilities? What I mean is, you show people things that
they can do that they would have never thought of on their own, in a
self-defense situation. Shin rakes, instep stomps, palmheels to the nose,
eye gouging...things that people aren't even aware of as an effective (VERY
effective) option?
>
> Then again, it is not a substitute for long term training. That is why we
> are the only (that I know of) self-defense/personal safety program that
> offers FREE lifetime return and practice. Just bring your signed book and
> you will never have to pay again, unless attending for college credit, of
> course.
>
Do you get many RAD students who eventually transition into lifelong martial
artists?
~Matt
Anonymous
take issue with your assertion below that 9-12 hours is sufficient for
someone to "learn enough to reasonable defend themselves."
This is simply not possible...you cannot build muscle memory this fast. Nor
can you impart self protection theories (observation, threat level
assessment, etc) into someone's everyday life that fast.
Of course a female police officer already knows much of this mental stuff.
But when I taught self-protection classes a local colleges (14
weeks....twice per week) I would say barely 25% could react with some
confidence in all situations we threw at them. And yes, we trained with
full impact pads, etc. We also yelled, screamed obscenities, attached from
behind, etc to make it as real as possible....
The danger with this...and just about anything that awards a certificate
(like pepper spray) is that it fosters a sense of "I've been there, took
that class, now I'm good to go," especially in our I-want-it-now society.
Is this stuff better than nothing? Jury is still out on that. Statitstics
on assaults seem to favor both schools of thought...the "don't fight back
because it will enrage them" vs. the "if you show some fight, they'll be so
stunned that you did anything" camps.
Interesting note...I used to do a demonstration at the begining of the
second week of class with female Karate instructor. I would have her wear
instep/shin and hand pads. She was allowed to kick or punch me in the groin
as I grabbed her. We would start 10 feet apart. EVERY time I was able to
get her, grab her and get behind her in a choke. These were full power
kicks and she knew I was coming too.... (yes, many times she succeeded in
hitting "the boys" but even in pain, I was able to get to her). This was
done to disabuse incoming students the thought that they were gonna have
some sort of "one punch, one knockout mentality."
Just my thoughts/experiences.
aiki
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b64hpo$shn$1...@ins22.netins.net...
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
Shoe
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
news:b62kte$lgu$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
I have never truly trained any style in my Adult life, but have two friends
who are both practitioners. Both of them have taught me basics techniques
just for fun while we were hanging out. My Aikido friend helped my
confidence a bit in a bad situation, but my Kung Fu buddy, whom I took a
little more seriously considering the difference in their training time,
made a large difference in the way I feel about situations. Like Mike said
your approach to a situation will make a severe difference in the outcome.
But I still would fall on the little bit of Kung Fu I know before I would
try the Aikido. I feel that I can safely leave any situation I come into
with a street thug or even a weak trained aggressor. I may not hurt them
but I can defend myself enough to make them think twice before continuing
the attack.
Gym Bob
punching and kicking style, usually Kung fu and then switch or blend into
Aikido. This would give you a rounded variety of techniques, circular
techniques in offence and defence that are very compatible. The kung fu
should teach you to be fast as lightning and the aggressiveness will help
your Aikido trechniques immensely as a uke and nage. The aikido techniques
qill help your kung fu to "slide" around you opponent.
Best of luck
"Shoe" <Shoe...@Mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b6ch4n$929$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Mike Dobony
"Anonymous" <aikidok...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:b6aou1$c77$1...@nntp2-cm.news.eni.net...
> While I concur with your observations re: dynamic situations, I'd have to
> take issue with your assertion below that 9-12 hours is sufficient for
> someone to "learn enough to reasonable defend themselves."
>
> This is simply not possible...you cannot build muscle memory this fast.
Nor
> can you impart self protection theories (observation, threat level
> assessment, etc) into someone's everyday life that fast.
>
teach new skills, simply fine-tune basic skills already known. How much
muscle memory do you need to raise a knee? How much to strike effectively
with an elbow? Not much. Then again, practice DOES make permenant. That
is why we also have a free lifetime return and practice policy with every
one of the over 3,000 instructors. How much do you continue to charge
repeat students?
OTOH, 90% of personal safety is not these physical skills, but risk
recognition, risk awareness, risk reduction and risk avoidance.
> Of course a female police officer already knows much of this mental stuff.
> But when I taught self-protection classes a local colleges (14
> weeks....twice per week) I would say barely 25% could react with some
> confidence in all situations we threw at them. And yes, we trained with
> full impact pads, etc. We also yelled, screamed obscenities, attached
from
> behind, etc to make it as real as possible....
>
Did you teach fine motor skills? These definately need to be continuously
practiced in order to retain them in a conflict. These deteriate VERY
quickly in conflict. That is why we teach gross motor skills.
The female police officer does NOT necessarily know this mental stuff. In a
law enforcement situation the objective is MUCH different from just being
out and about. The mental preparation for being on duty is not what is
needed off duty. There is a totally different focus. One particular female
officer commented that seh did NOT feel safe out of uniform. The officer
mentality did not help off duty. She KNEW it was not appropriate off duty,
out of uniform. Only a stupid idiot would jump out at a uniformed police
officer from the bushes or when entering the car, etc. That is not the case
when she is off duty and out of uniform.
> The danger with this...and just about anything that awards a certificate
> (like pepper spray) is that it fosters a sense of "I've been there, took
> that class, now I'm good to go," especially in our I-want-it-now society.
>
Agreed. That is not true with RAD. We do NOT make any claims that one is
safe by taking the class. We encourage returning for more training and also
encourage other training, i.e. martial arts. BTW, pepper spray is not that
effective. It is a distraction tool only. Also a pepper spray as an award
is useless without training and having it in hand at all times.
> Is this stuff better than nothing? Jury is still out on that.
Statitstics
> on assaults seem to favor both schools of thought...the "don't fight back
> because it will enrage them" vs. the "if you show some fight, they'll be
so
> stunned that you did anything" camps.
>
If you don't fight back you will get assaulted. If you do fight back you
will not get hurt any worse than if you did not fight back. In fact, one
study actually shows the degree of injury is LESS if you fight back. About
70% of those resisting physically escape. ZERO percent who do not resist
will escape. Statistics do NOT favor don't fight. One has to evaluate the
particular situation and decide for themselves what a particular situation
calls for. There are times when not fighting may be the best choice a woman
has. She needs to evaluate things like her immediate physical condition,
the condition of the attacker, the distance to safety, the motive of the
attack. In general, the best option is usually fighting back.
> Interesting note...I used to do a demonstration at the begining of the
> second week of class with female Karate instructor. I would have her wear
> instep/shin and hand pads. She was allowed to kick or punch me in the
groin
> as I grabbed her. We would start 10 feet apart. EVERY time I was able to
> get her, grab her and get behind her in a choke. These were full power
> kicks and she knew I was coming too.... (yes, many times she succeeded in
> hitting "the boys" but even in pain, I was able to get to her). This was
> done to disabuse incoming students the thought that they were gonna have
> some sort of "one punch, one knockout mentality."
>
DUH! YOU knew it was coming too! You also knew the counter! The object of
personal safety is to cause the price to be too high. The fact is, if
someone wants you bad enough, they will get you. We also teach that. You
also taught your students that your skills you taught were not going to be
effective. Any wonder why you had such a poor confidence level and poor
performance? You destroyed your own program! They already lost! You
created victims instead of survivors! Have any of your students called you
first when they were assaulted? Some of ours called their instructor before
even calling the police! One in particular choose not to resist because she
was drunk and knew the attacker (date rape by her "boyfriend"). The first
call was to her instructor!
Also a question, what did this other instructor do when you got her in a
choke hold? How did she protect herself and was she able to escape? A few
years after a single class a student was attacked from behind in a choke
hold. In seconds he was on the ground. She ran to the store and didn't
look back until she was almost to the store entrance. He was still on the
ground. She delivered a few high elbow strikes and turned and delivered a
few knee strikes. You ignore a vital element in such an attack, SUPRISE! A
real attack is not a face-off, but a suprise attack. The defense is also a
suprise attack. He does not expect a real fight. That is why he attacked!
The attacker carefully chooses a victim he *thinks* he can control. When he
discoveres he will have to exert great energy to get and maintain that
control he will invariably disengage and look for an easier target!
Prometheus
> practiced in order to retain them in a conflict. These deteriate VERY
> quickly in conflict. That is why we teach gross motor skills.
This is a fascinating point IMHO. Primarily because I believe it's true.
Fine motor skills do deteriorate rapidly under physical and emotional
stress. I think it's safe to define fighting for your life (or your wallet)
as qualifying in that sense. So, do we as Aikidoka maintain that the fine
motor skills often used to execute technique survive intact during a true
life and death struggle? Are there "gross" motor skills employed in Aikido
techniques that continue to serve us during such events?
Oh sure, we train and train and train to develop a certain somatic memory
but can we rely on this during true episodes of maximum physical and
emotional stress? Regardless of this somatic memory, certain physiological
events occur which simply limit our control over fine motor skills. Will
that fine kokyu movement really manifest itself under maximum pressure as
our adrenaline slams into our system?
I don't ask the question rhetorically. I myself do not have an answer. But
I'd be interested to hear the group response.
Prometheus.
Lord Phoenix
retain most of your fine motor skills. Both the fact that your brain is
acting at the level of automaticity and your confidence in you ability
limiting your adrenaline would result in less loss of the FMS.
Prometheus
Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
I don't think the sports psychologist is speaking of the same sort of stress
induced event of the nature of which we are speaking. Oh sure, there's a
certain physical and emotional stress to a sporting event but it's not
nearly on par with a life and death "fight or flight" event.
One is not fighting for one's life in a sporting tournament and rarely if
ever does one perceive a life and death threat during such events. So the
sports psychologist is correct, but only insofar as the levels of stress in
his area of expertise can be managed by training and other techniques.
I don't think that's what Mike was speaking of. The physiological and
perceptual distortions Mike alluded to which are well documented, events
which are associated with law enforcement, military combat, and real world
attacks, tend to involve the "fight or flight" mechanism of the brain. This
mechanism is rarely triggered on the playing field or standing in the dojo
but it's effects are well documented as a matter of combat and law
enforcement scenarios.
From a law enforcement site: "effects include indecisiveness, an inability
to keep mental track, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, time distortion,
space distortion, importance discrepancy, denial response, temporary
blindness, bias enhancement, temporary (or even permanent) memory
suppression or loss, and other effects which include inability to control
the limbs and acute loss of fine motor skills. What most experts know is
that all of the above effects are perfectly normal and that every officer
will experience most of the above symptoms to one degree or another."
So the sports psychologist aside, I'll let my questions stand. Do you still
think that fine kokyu movement you practice to perfection will still be
there when you need it most?
Prom.
Ron
"Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3aBja.23991$ug3....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
> news:b6lp2l$6j0$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
<snip>
> So the sports psychologist aside, I'll let my questions stand. Do you
still
> think that fine kokyu movement you practice to perfection will still be
> there when you need it most?
>
> Prom.
>
I can only keep training... and hope that training will be of use if needed.
I guess an alternative would be to not train..and just watch TV. However,
I'm pretty sure that remote control waza would be even *less* effective in a
real life-and-death situation.
Hang in
Ron
Wayne
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
How do you know this, may I ask? Does this apply to everyone?
Wayne
"Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3aBja.23991$ug3....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> news:b6lp2l$6j0$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> > The sports psychologist would say that if you are good enough that you
> will
> > retain most of your fine motor skills. Both the fact that your brain is
> > acting at the level of automaticity and your confidence in you ability
> > limiting your adrenaline would result in less loss of the FMS.
> >
> >
>
> I don't think the sports psychologist is speaking of the same sort of
stress
> induced event of the nature of which we are speaking. Oh sure, there's a
> certain physical and emotional stress to a sporting event but it's not
> nearly on par with a life and death "fight or flight" event.
>
> One is not fighting for one's life in a sporting tournament and rarely if
> ever does one perceive a life and death threat during such events. So the
> sports psychologist is correct, but only insofar as the levels of stress
in
> his area of expertise can be managed by training and other techniques.
The level is only notable difference.
> I don't think that's what Mike was speaking of. The physiological and
> perceptual distortions Mike alluded to which are well documented, events
> which are associated with law enforcement, military combat, and real world
> attacks, tend to involve the "fight or flight" mechanism of the brain.
This
> mechanism is rarely triggered on the playing field or standing in the dojo
> but it's effects are well documented as a matter of combat and law
> enforcement scenarios.
>
> From a law enforcement site: "effects include indecisiveness, an inability
> to keep mental track, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, time distortion,
> space distortion, importance discrepancy, denial response, temporary
> blindness, bias enhancement, temporary (or even permanent) memory
> suppression or loss, and other effects which include inability to control
> the limbs and acute loss of fine motor skills.
On the few occasions when I felt like my life depended on acting decisive,
you can bet a bucket of shit, I sobered up fast. Non of this
thumb-twiddling, confused muddle, which you seem to be detailing. I've
never felt more alive than on the occasions when I might have lost it.
I'll tell you what I experienced, tunnel-vision and memory, auditory
exclusion, time distortion, memory suppression or loss. You missed out
feeling of having super-man strength and extrodinay mental-clarity.
As for tunnel-vision and memory loss, consider this: you forgot to put the
cat out, may have left the key in the latch, you forgot to turn off the
oven, and someone is presently trying to kill you!! Now, if this is not a
situation which calls for tunnel vision and memory loss, I don't know what
does.
When someone is trying to kill you, nothing else matters. The cat can go
fuck itself, and the house can burn down. You should have forgotten you
have a cat, or a house. Why do these psychologists treat natural
appropriate responses as something peculiar and curious?
> What most experts know is
> that all of the above effects are perfectly normal and that every officer
> will experience most of the above symptoms to one degree or another."
Prom, these people you speak of, are expert at what? Every will experience
most? Are you sure? Sounds like alot of either ineffective or dead
officers, to me. Is their training intended to make them normal?
> So the sports psychologist aside, I'll let my questions stand. Do you
still
> think that fine kokyu movement you practice to perfection will still be
> there when you need it most?
It depends how you train. My fine motor skills, increased under stress.
John Heaney
"Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote:
>So the sports psychologist aside, I'll let my questions stand. Do you still
>think that fine kokyu movement you practice to perfection will still be
>there when you need it most?
I don't think kokyu movement is a fine motor skill. Grabbing is a fine
motor skill. Twisting the wrist is a fine motor skill. Irimi, tenkan,
extension and breathing are all gross motor skills. That is the basis of
kokyu movement and will likely be one of the few things working very
well. Grabbing for ikyo, nikyo, kote gaeshi, shihonage, etc. will be a
major problem. That's why it's important to train to get the grab at the
spot in the technique where it most naturally occurs.
----
John S. Heaney "Time flies whether you're having fun or not."
voice & fax (401) 438-4288
Paul Ross
the beautiful flowing technique becomes the sudden, nobody saw what you did
technique. i've had aikido work against very big guys who were pretty sure
that my badge was a target they planned on smashing into the pavement. they
never did figure out what i did. bystanders were just as confused. i was
tickled silly. at the time i was working as a cop i was 145 pounds soaking
wet in full gear. (unlike my portly stature now) your intention gets a lot
more focused. the stess symptoms you read about are correct. all your
perceptions change. your fine motor skills are the last of your concerns.
but, i've not approached aikido from the perspective of fine motor skills.
i've approached it from the standpoint of pattern. i try to feel where the
pattern is most effective in the relationship of two bodies and their
relative positioning and motions. i wind up doing all the things that
people say are pretty and moving in the technically correct ways, but only
because i'm trying to maintain that relationship where there is a balance in
our movements. this is an incredibly simplistic way of putting it and it
does no justice to the complexity of the dance. i know that and i apoligize
for it. it is not an intellectual exercise anyway and it would take a book
worth of writing to try to paint the picture. even then it would not be
correct because it is a feeling/experiencing/touching thing. ya gotta do
it, not think about it. i guess the biggest difference i see between this
approach and most aikidoka that i've talked with is that i don't concern
myself with where my hands and feet are or how to step. i concern myself
with a dynamic relationship. the hands and feet are in the right place when
you are in a balanced, harmonic relationship.
the "down side" to this is that i can no longer be a cop. it reached a
point that it appeared to me the relationship i was in with the citizens of
the locale i was trying to protect was no longer in balance. not because of
them. i was out of balance and i perceived the entire judicial system as
out of balance. so i stopped doing it. i was very good at it and very much
"respected", even by the "criminal" element. that would not have lasted
though. i was losing my humanity so i stopped. and i have not had to use
aikido in a physical altercation since.
kind of a long drawn out way of saying it ain't even remotely like the dojo,
but for me it worked effortlessly. i don't know how it would work for you.
--
Paul Ross
Ross Aikido
pr...@volcano.net
www.angelfire.com/ca/Aikido/
571 South Hwy 49
Jackson, CA 95642
(209) 223-4400 dojo
(209) 295-4365 home
"Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:xGrja.18044$ug3....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
John Heaney
"Wayne" <wayne_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Police officers have a different job than we do. We are just trying to
defend ourselves. Officers are trying to be law enforcers. While they
will certainly find themselves in self defense situations, their goal is
to maintain (or return to) a state in which they can make good
observations and judgements.
Prometheus
Wayne <wayne_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PsDja.93$722...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Heh, okay....all those experts must be wrong then I guess. There's no real
physiological effect from an adrenaline dump to the system and all those
studies with cops and soldiers are a bunch of hooey........LOL.
There is actual science to support this effect folks and real world studies
that confirm them.
While you may be right about in one respect, heightened response, the body
becoming stronger, faster, and more tolerant of pain. That's the good part.
The negative effects of "combat stress" are virtually ignored when police
use of force is investigated. Blood leaves the extremities and concentrates
in the major muscles making fine motor skills extremely difficult. The body
shakes, vision becomes "tunneled" (peripheral vision vanishes), hearing is
reduced (auditory exclusion) and time seems to go either in slow motion or
speed up excessively (tachypsychia). These effects are what make shooting,
fighting, and even ordinary activities like walking difficult during such
situations.
But like you say.......what do the experts know.....
Prom.
Prom
Wayne
> Heh, okay....all those experts must be wrong then I guess.
Which ones?
> There's no real
> physiological effect from an adrenaline dump to the system
Never said that.
>... and all those
> studies with cops and soldiers are a bunch of hooey........LOL.
Some of them.
> There is actual science to support this effect folks and real world
>studies that confirm them.
I consider my real-life eperience to be more valid than any number of
dubious studies.
> While you may be right about in one respect, heightened response, the body
> becoming stronger, faster, and more tolerant of pain. That's the good
part.
>
> The negative effects of "combat stress" are virtually ignored when police
> use of force is investigated.
For negative responses, read lousy training.
> Blood leaves the extremities and concentrates
> in the major muscles making fine motor skills extremely difficult.
You have a study to back this up? A study that says that tremours are a
result of blood leaving the extremities?
> The body
> shakes, ...
Maybe your body does. Mine doesn't.
> vision becomes "tunneled" (peripheral vision vanishes), ...
I call this focussing on what's important.
> hearing is reduced (auditory exclusion) ...
How about no conscious awareness at all, but able to sense footsteps?
> ...and time seems to go either in slow motion ...
Yup. Heightened awareness.
> ... or speed up excessively (tachypsychia).
Don't know what that shit is. Never experienced it.
> These effects are what make shooting,
> fighting, and even ordinary activities like walking difficult during such
> situations.
Is that so?
> But like you say.......what do the experts know.....
But like I said, Expert at what?
Wayne
Prometheus
Paul Ross <pr...@volcano.net> wrote in message
news:v8u26qp...@corp.supernews.com...
Paul,
Thanks for such a even handed reply. It's always a bit amusing to me that
academic questions like mine are often taken personally by some people as if
it was some ego based challenge to the effectiveness of someone's technique.
That's not what I intend at all, so thanks for being able to observe and
discuss without going down that road.
Look, I'm not arguing the fact that one can train to develop a certain
"muscle memory" or somatic response to an attack. I'm merely asking the
question whether or not we can rely on some of the finer motor skills we
practice in the dojo when the physiological stress response of our bodies
takes resources away from the very perceptions and muscles we require to
execute those finer techniques.
Nor am I saying Aikido is particularly prone to this problem. Hell, aiming
and firing a handgun requires fine motor skills and I think most police
officers who have been in such situations will admit that their ability to
accurately do so under high stress situations was unreliable.
That being said, there are certainly gross motor skills and larger muscle
groups in Aikido that one might employ to great effect. I'm merely thinking
out loud about the reality of our natural physiological response to stress
and the Aikido techniques one might actually rely on in actual combat.
Prometheus.
Ash Smith
Well the goal is not so much to memorize the pedantic elements of fine
control and perfect technique, but rather to get a grasp on the deeper
concept of controlling the center (and thus the person(s)). For example,
when performing shominuchi, one does not concentrait on the wrist, one
concentraits on the entire body, and if possible, mindset of uke.
So in this aspect it is all "gross" motor skills... but if the concept is
there, the "fine" motor control will follow one of the plethora of possible
specifics.
An other big element is maintaining control over YOURSELF. Panicing is the
natural response, but a key to being effective in a combat situation is NOT
to panic. Relax, and let it happen, being attacked is not a time to
concentrate or reherse, if you've learned it, you have, if not, then it is
too late to learn at that point. Sort of "being zen".
I find the mystical perspective some have of "zen" to be questionable,
however, in my experiance "being zen" is exactly the best way to let one's
training/skills come through in a real situation.
I could go into much explination and anecdote, but I think this is
sufficient to get my point acrost.
Ash
Wayne
>
> the beautiful flowing technique becomes the sudden, nobody saw what you
did
> technique. i've had aikido work against very big guys who were pretty
sure
> that my badge was a target they planned on smashing into the pavement.
they
> never did figure out what i did. bystanders were just as confused. i was
> tickled silly.
I like that. Real amusing. lol
> at the time i was working as a cop i was 145 pounds soaking
> wet in full gear. (unlike my portly stature now) your intention gets a
lot
> more focused. the stess symptoms you read about are correct. all your
> perceptions change. your fine motor skills are the last of your concerns.
> but, i've not approached aikido from the perspective of fine motor skills.
> i've approached it from the standpoint of pattern. i try to feel where
the
> pattern is most effective in the relationship of two bodies and their
> relative positioning and motions. i wind up doing all the things that
> people say are pretty and moving in the technically correct ways, but only
> because i'm trying to maintain that relationship where there is a balance
in
> our movements. this is an incredibly simplistic way of putting it and it
> does no justice to the complexity of the dance. i know that and i
apoligize
> for it.
I would put it in a similar way. My experience of multiple attackers trying
to put me down was one of balancing energies so that they cancelled. I just
'felt' it.
> it is not an intellectual exercise anyway and it would take a book
> worth of writing to try to paint the picture. even then it would not be
> correct because it is a feeling/experiencing/touching thing. ya gotta do
> it, not think about it.
Absolutely! Thinking chokes the process.
> i guess the biggest difference i see between this
> approach and most aikidoka that i've talked with is that i don't concern
> myself with where my hands and feet are or how to step. i concern myself
> with a dynamic relationship. the hands and feet are in the right place
when
> you are in a balanced, harmonic relationship.
I think once you have learned the small subtle placements, you should forget
them.
> the "down side" to this is that i can no longer be a cop. it reached a
> point that it appeared to me the relationship i was in with the citizens
of
> the locale i was trying to protect was no longer in balance. not because
of
> them. i was out of balance and i perceived the entire judicial system as
> out of balance. so i stopped doing it. i was very good at it and very
much
> "respected", even by the "criminal" element. that would not have lasted
> though. i was losing my humanity so i stopped.
I experienced something similar. I found, at the height of my powers, I was
about to out-psych, out-fight and scare the hell out of any thug, but I felt
like my humanity was threatened. I just didn't like he neccesary mindset.
Wayne
Gym Bob
of. I always thought that fine motor skills were painting, writing with a
pen or other finger, wrist manipulations of small movements. Anthing else,
including kokyu, iriminage, and most other aikido techniques would be
included in large motor movements. Nikyo/nikajo would be borderline
fine/large motor movements. Aiming a gun would be a definite fine but
smashing somebody with it would be large.
I guess I don't feel most aikido techniques involve any fine motor skills if
done correctly.
"John Heaney" <hea...@SolidObject.com> wrote in message
news:heaney-D108F8....@news.east.cox.net...
John Heaney
"Gym Bob" <None...@notspam.com> wrote:
>I guess that would come to a definition on what a fine motor skill consists
>of. I always thought that fine motor skills were painting, writing with a
>pen or other finger, wrist manipulations of small movements. Anthing else,
>including kokyu, iriminage, and most other aikido techniques would be
>included in large motor movements. Nikyo/nikajo would be borderline
>fine/large motor movements. Aiming a gun would be a definite fine but
>smashing somebody with it would be large.
>
>I guess I don't feel most aikido techniques involve any fine motor skills if
>done correctly.
I agree. If Aikido required fine motor skills to be effective then it
wouldn't be.
Lord Phoenix
> > in the major muscles making fine motor skills extremely difficult.
>
> You have a study to back this up?
It is proven. Blood leaves the extremeties [why you go pale] to get more
oxygen to the large, internal, muscles. The muschles that give you raw
power. [Surface vessels contract while internal vessels dialate.]
The biggest reason fine motor skils stop working as well when you get
nervous is that more motor units are activating. Normally you only use a
small percentage of available muscle for any task. If you are completely
calm and go lift weights you are only using a small percent of the muscles
in that muschle group. When vastly more motor units are used it is harder
to do fine tasks. Ever been really, really nervous [just survived a car
crash or gave a presentatin to thousands of people when you fear presenting
to 10] and try to write? It is hard, because you lose the fine control.
Lord Phoenix
> > will retain most of your fine motor skills. Both the fact that your
brain is
> > acting at the level of automaticity and your confidence in you ability
> > limiting your adrenaline would result in less loss of the FMS.
>
>
> How do you know this, may I ask? Does this apply to everyone?
I asked a sports psychologist. It is relatively universal but varies on the
persons personality type. Introverts would have more trouble handling the
stress of a situation like this. Extroverts are better at it. It is a bit
complicated but that is the simple version.
Lord Phoenix
stress
> induced event of the nature of which we are speaking. Oh sure, there's a
> certain physical and emotional stress to a sporting event but it's not
> nearly on par with a life and death "fight or flight" event.
It is the same. It uses the same pathways and chemiclas. Sports psychology
has direct coorilation to the military and they even use military units for
some expirements.
> One is not fighting for one's life in a sporting tournament and rarely if
> ever does one perceive a life and death threat during such events.
It does not necessarily need to be a life or death situation to trigger
fight-or-flight. It is harder to control though because one of the things
leading to arousal is fear of the consequences of failure. A fight you fear
getting your ass kicked. Military you fear getting killed. But if you are
confident enough in you ability the fear of the consequences of failure does
not affect you.
> This
> mechanism is rarely triggered on the playing field or standing in the dojo
> but it's effects are well documented as a matter of combat and law
> enforcement scenarios.
It is commonly triggered on the playing field but is easier to control
there. It is not triggered in the dojo though...
Wayne
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
> > > Blood leaves the extremities and concentrates
> > > in the major muscles making fine motor skills extremely difficult.
> >
> > You have a study to back this up?
>
>
> It is proven. Blood leaves the extremeties [why you go pale] to get more
> oxygen to the large, internal, muscles. The muschles that give you raw
> power. [Surface vessels contract while internal vessels dialate.]
>
> The biggest reason fine motor skils stop working as well when you get
> nervous is that more motor units are activating.
Why did you leave out this: "A study that says that tremours are a
result of blood leaving the extremities?" That was my question.
> Normally you only use a
> small percentage of available muscle for any task. If you are completely
> calm and go lift weights you are only using a small percent of the muscles
> in that muschle group. When vastly more motor units are used it is harder
> to do fine tasks. Ever been really, really nervous [just survived a car
> crash or gave a presentatin to thousands of people when you fear
presenting
> to 10] and try to write? It is hard, because you lose the fine control.
I agree with almost all of that, except I don't accept that the natural
stress response degrades performance in a properly trained individual.
Wayne
Wayne
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
OK You are acknowledging that the response varies between persons.
Granted, most people could suffer the effects you describe.
Wayne
Prometheus
It's probably more correct to say the "level" of response varies between
persons as a result of multiple factors including the level of perceived
threat and intensity of the event.
This is quite different than saying some people are immune from such
effects.
Prometheus
Prometheus
>
> "Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
> news:b6oiue$95n$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> > > > Blood leaves the extremities and concentrates
> > > > in the major muscles making fine motor skills extremely difficult.
> > >
> > > You have a study to back this up?
> >
> >
> > It is proven. Blood leaves the extremeties [why you go pale] to get
more
> > oxygen to the large, internal, muscles. The muschles that give you raw
> > power. [Surface vessels contract while internal vessels dialate.]
> >
> > The biggest reason fine motor skils stop working as well when you get
> > nervous is that more motor units are activating.
>
> Why did you leave out this: "A study that says that tremours are a
> result of blood leaving the extremities?" That was my question.
I don't think that was ever anyone's claim Wayne. In fact, it was you that
presented this correlation not me. What I described were some of the common
effects of an intense stress reaction. That the descriptions were combined
in one paragraph did not necessarily mean that they were directly linked
causally. Somehow you decided I was saying blood loss and muscle tremors we
directly causally linked. I don't think I ever said as much, though it may
well be partially true. I think maybe the tremors are as likely a result of
an adrenaline dump to the system and other factors.
P
Prometheus
John Heaney <hea...@SolidObject.com> wrote in message
Just so I understand John, is it your position that Aikido requires no fine
motor skills?
Prom.
John Heaney
"Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote:
>Just so I understand John, is it your position that Aikido requires no fine
>motor skills?
Believe it or not, that is a question I've been struggling with for a
long time now. I do not believe that fine motor skills are required for
the basic movements of Aikido. Even the grabs, if done at the correct
time, should be part of the natural evolution of the technique. However,
there is a kind of sensitivity in Aikido and I am not sure if that is a
function of fine motor skills or not.
John Heaney
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote:
>> One is not fighting for one's life in a sporting tournament and rarely if
>> ever does one perceive a life and death threat during such events.
>
>It does not necessarily need to be a life or death situation to trigger
>fight-or-flight. It is harder to control though because one of the things
>leading to arousal is fear of the consequences of failure. A fight you fear
>getting your ass kicked. Military you fear getting killed. But if you are
>confident enough in you ability the fear of the consequences of failure does
>not affect you.
I'll go out on a limb here and say that it really is about ego death and
there are many situations that trigger these responses beyond the
obvious ones. Stage fright is another common one. Fear of losing one's
job. Fear of losing a loved one. Any situation where emotions like shame
come up can trigger these responses.
Our bodies, in general, do not understand the difference between real
life and death encounters and other kinds of encounters where fear of
failure is important. Imagine you've failed to do a particular task for
work and you get called in to your boss's office. You might get fired.
Your body is saying fight or flight, but your socialization is saying go
in and face the music. We face these situation constantly in our lives
in a wide variety of contexts at a wide variety of levels of importance.
Gym Bob
positioning of the grab not important?
"John Heaney" <hea...@SolidObject.com> wrote in message
news:heaney-6D8FC7....@news.east.cox.net...
Paul Ross
"Gym Bob" <None...@notspam.com> wrote in message
news:e9619b986cbe920c...@news.teranews.com...
| are "grabs" not using the fine motor skills of the finger joints? Is
| positioning of the grab not important?
|
i personally don't think so. when under severe stress grabbing was a simple
thing for me to do. letting go on the other hand was hard to do sometimes.
<tiger by the tail comes to mind>
Wayne
> This is quite different than saying some people are immune from such
> effects.
Then why say it?
Wayne
John Heaney
"Gym Bob" <None...@notspam.com> wrote:
>"John Heaney" <hea...@SolidObject.com> wrote in message
>news:heaney-6D8FC7....@news.east.cox.net...
>> In article <6jXja.36086$ug3....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>,
>> "Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Just so I understand John, is it your position that Aikido requires no
>fine
>> >motor skills?
>>
>> Believe it or not, that is a question I've been struggling with for a
>> long time now. I do not believe that fine motor skills are required for
>> the basic movements of Aikido. Even the grabs, if done at the correct
>> time, should be part of the natural evolution of the technique. However,
>> there is a kind of sensitivity in Aikido and I am not sure if that is a
>> function of fine motor skills or not.
>>
>are "grabs" not using the fine motor skills of the finger joints? Is
>positioning of the grab not important?
>
I don't think grabs are necessarily fine motor skills. Latching onto
something does not imply trying to execute some fine control or small,
precise movement.
As far as positioning goes, I think many of the problems I see in
students is that they are too focused on grabbing things. They go for
eye/hand coordination and try to catch things and manipulate them. I'm
of the mind to go for large targets, like an entire arm, and allowing
the hand to slide more naturally into the correct position.
It also depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Certainly, if you
are pinning then, at some point, you will have to get a hand in the
correct place. On the other hand, a projected throw often will succeed
without getting your hand just where you wanted it.
Lord Phoenix
> stress response degrades performance in a properly trained individual.
The degree to which the stress response effects you relates to your level
training, your confidence in your training [if you *know* you will win there
is less fear], and your fear of the consequences of failure all mixed with
your personality type. The short answer is that if you are highly trained
it should not effect you nearly as much. Or if you take the "zen" approach
and just say 'whatever will happen will happen. just do what i can and
don't worry about whether i get the shit kicked out of me' it will lessen
you fear of the consequences of failure and thus lower your level of
arousal.
In addition to helping keep the level of arousal down, the more highly you
have mastered the skill the better you can perform it while aroused.
Wayne
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
Low arousal level is bad. Fear, past the point of usefulness is bad.
Training should encompass all that is required to be effective. The
training is only as good as what the performance exposes.
Wayne
Lord Phoenix
you
> > have mastered the skill the better you can perform it while aroused.
>
> Low arousal level is bad. Fear, past the point of usefulness is bad.
Yes, arousal being TOO low is bad. You want some arousal, gives you
strength. You would get that just from knowing you are going to fight. The
bad stuff is when you start getting affraid or if you are not confident in
your ability. There is a perfect level of arousal but when i say "keep the
level of arousal down" i mean keep it down at that perfect level.
Gym Bob
insight into this for me. We may not react enough and then when we do we
usually overreact. (very hard on uke even though nage always swears it was
the normal intensity). I think this means we may not grab correctly but very
hard and firm to try and compensate for the lack of accuracy. This is
probably the lack of fine motor skills control being compensated by large
motor skills. (bad grab but one hell of a tenkan and uke didn't touch the
ground until his nose wore off...LOL)
I did a 13 week mini-series on aikido on a local cable TV station years ago
with a higher belt. If it wasn't for the 6 x 6 ' area surrounded by $60,000
lenses, I think he would have ruined my whole body even though he swore he
was very gentle....LOL
"Paul Ross" <pr...@volcano.net> wrote in message
news:v90ivgb...@corp.supernews.com...
Shoe
"Lord Phoenix" <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
In my own personal experience I have found this to be very true, the last
altercation I was in, I was sure wasn't going to happen until it was almost
over. I was casually dodging punches waiting on him to stop and realize
that we weren't going to fight but he never did. And once it did start to
happen I was so calm that my "adrenaline dump" never happened, I was weak
and it never truly hit me as to what happened until a good while later. We
tangled up and wrestled around with me talking to him so calmly he probably
couldn't hear me over his own breathing. I should have been able to toss
him like a rag doll but I found myself struggling, and at no point
overpowering him by any means. outweighing him by at least 100 pounds is
still let him get they best of me due to my under arousal.
Rexx Magnus
alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan writing in message news:heaney-
A65C04.112...@news.east.cox.net
> Our bodies, in general, do not understand the difference between real
> life and death encounters and other kinds of encounters where fear of
> failure is important. Imagine you've failed to do a particular task for
> work and you get called in to your boss's office. You might get fired.
> Your body is saying fight or flight, but your socialization is saying go
> in and face the music. We face these situation constantly in our lives
> in a wide variety of contexts at a wide variety of levels of importance.
<Delurk>
This is also why it is exciting to go on fairground rides, watch movies,
play computer games - and do numerous other things that can get you all
hyped up, even though there is no real (very likely) possibility of
injury/death/serious consequence to failure.
</delurk>
--
UO & AC Herbal - http://www.rexx.co.uk/herbal
To email me change the domain to the above.
Prometheus
Perhaps I mistook it for what you were saying........
Prometheus
:-)
Prom.
Mike Dobony
> > Did you teach fine motor skills? These definately need to be
continuously
> > practiced in order to retain them in a conflict. These deteriate VERY
> > quickly in conflict. That is why we teach gross motor skills.
>
>
> This is a fascinating point IMHO. Primarily because I believe it's true.
> Fine motor skills do deteriorate rapidly under physical and emotional
> stress. I think it's safe to define fighting for your life (or your
wallet)
> as qualifying in that sense.
Fighting for your wallet is plain stupid! A wallet can be replaced easily.
If all they want is a wallet, give it to them!
So, do we as Aikidoka maintain that the fine
> motor skills often used to execute technique survive intact during a true
> life and death struggle? Are there "gross" motor skills employed in
Aikido
> techniques that continue to serve us during such events?
>
> Oh sure, we train and train and train to develop a certain somatic memory
> but can we rely on this during true episodes of maximum physical and
> emotional stress? Regardless of this somatic memory, certain
physiological
> events occur which simply limit our control over fine motor skills. Will
> that fine kokyu movement really manifest itself under maximum pressure as
> our adrenaline slams into our system?
>
> I don't ask the question rhetorically. I myself do not have an answer.
But
> I'd be interested to hear the group response.
>
> Prometheus.
>
>
Mike Dobony
>
> Lord Phoenix <Phoenix140@Hot_nospam_mail.com> wrote in message
> > The sports psychologist would say that if you are good enough that you
> will
> > retain most of your fine motor skills. Both the fact that your brain is
> > acting at the level of automaticity and your confidence in you ability
> > limiting your adrenaline would result in less loss of the FMS.
> >
> >
>
stress
> induced event of the nature of which we are speaking. Oh sure, there's a
> certain physical and emotional stress to a sporting event but it's not
> nearly on par with a life and death "fight or flight" event.
>
> sports psychologist is correct, but only insofar as the levels of stress
in
> his area of expertise can be managed by training and other techniques.
>
> I don't think that's what Mike was speaking of. The physiological and
> perceptual distortions Mike alluded to which are well documented, events
> which are associated with law enforcement, military combat, and real world
> attacks, tend to involve the "fight or flight" mechanism of the brain.
This
> mechanism is rarely triggered on the playing field or standing in the dojo
> but it's effects are well documented as a matter of combat and law
> enforcement scenarios.
>
> to keep mental track, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, time distortion,
> space distortion, importance discrepancy, denial response, temporary
> blindness, bias enhancement, temporary (or even permanent) memory
> suppression or loss, and other effects which include inability to control
> the limbs and acute loss of fine motor skills. What most experts know is
> that all of the above effects are perfectly normal and that every officer
> will experience most of the above symptoms to one degree or another."
>
> So the sports psychologist aside, I'll let my questions stand. Do you
still
> think that fine kokyu movement you practice to perfection will still be
> there when you need it most?
>
I think you are getting a little too critical of the fine motor skills. You
are correct in stating that these can deteriorate quickly in a fight or
flight situation, but that does NOT mean they are gone! The more you
practice the skills, the more likely you will be able to use them in a real
confrontation. While not as serious as in a real fight, during the
simulation that all RAD trainers go through I started to use my TKD skills
automatically and had to consciously pull them back! During the simulation
I was actually reliving my past and "lost it" throughout the session, wiht
the exception of a side-kick I pulled and a poorly delivered snap-kick to an
attacker on the side of me. He remembers it too! I hit his knee instead of
the groin!
Mike
> Prom.
>
>
>
>
Mike Dobony
> as one who has used it in law enforcement scenarios...
>
> snp<
> the "down side" to this is that i can no longer be a cop. it reached a
> point that it appeared to me the relationship i was in with the citizens
of
> the locale i was trying to protect was no longer in balance. not because
of
> them. i was out of balance and i perceived the entire judicial system as
> out of balance. so i stopped doing it. i was very good at it and very
much
> "respected", even by the "criminal" element. that would not have lasted
> though. i was losing my humanity so i stopped. and i have not had to use
> aikido in a physical altercation since.
>
> kind of a long drawn out way of saying it ain't even remotely like the
dojo,
> but for me it worked effortlessly. i don't know how it would work for
you.
> --
My guess is that since you had realistic training, ongoing training, as a
police officer, that you were able to mentally take what you learned in an
academic situation, the dojo, and apply it to the streets. Would that be a
fair assessment? Do you think that without the police training you could do
just as well with your Aikido? I would guess that you simply added the
Aikido to your standard police defensive tactics.
Mike
> Paul Ross
> Ross Aikido
> pr...@volcano.net
> www.angelfire.com/ca/Aikido/
> 571 South Hwy 49
> Jackson, CA 95642
> (209) 223-4400 dojo
> (209) 295-4365 home
>
>
>
>
> "Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:xGrja.18044$ug3....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> | > Did you teach fine motor skills? These definately need to be
> continuously
> | > practiced in order to retain them in a conflict. These deteriate VERY
> | > quickly in conflict. That is why we teach gross motor skills.
> |
> |
> | This is a fascinating point IMHO. Primarily because I believe it's
true.
> | Fine motor skills do deteriorate rapidly under physical and emotional
> | stress. I think it's safe to define fighting for your life (or your
> wallet)
> | as qualifying in that sense. So, do we as Aikidoka maintain that the
Paul Ross
they didn't put out too much effort. so the ongoing training wasn't much.
it was incredibly difficult to get cops to do any training. their egos got
in the way. i haven't seen any different here in calif either. the
training is not what makes the diff... it's the firearm, the radio and
backup. not just having them, but people know it and know there will be
more cops to deal with. makes the fight a little less of a problem
*usually*. you do on occassion run across the truly badass that isn't
intimidated. then you have dead cops.
and in answer to the question, i am of the opinion that the effectiveness of
my aikido was completely unrelated to the police training. police training
was really only enough to get you hurt cuz you thought you knew more than
you did. and it's not really the fault of the training. no training can be
like combat. i think what made the aikido something i could use was time in
a combat zone and time fighting. it gets you over the worst of the fear and
you can relax and deal with it better. you have a better idea of who you
really are and what you are capable of so you can get on with things.
but i still maintain that no one should try to get that kind of experience.
the things we do to each other are appalling.
--
Paul Ross
Ross Aikido
pr...@volcano.net
www.angelfire.com/ca/Aikido/
571 South Hwy 49
Jackson, CA 95642
(209) 223-4400 dojo
(209) 295-4365 home
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b6ti9b$24m$2...@ins22.netins.net...
Wayne
> Fighting for your wallet is plain stupid! A wallet can be replaced
easily.
> If all they want is a wallet, give it to them!
Damn! What if he doesn't want to? You advocate living by fear? This sort
of attitude creates more vermin.
Wayne
Gym Bob
That was my point on the rape scenario that was being taught by rape
"quickie" courses.
If you aren't gonna' train and become good at a martial art...don't try to
defned yourself half-way.
These "10 week self defence courses" usually get raped women into more
trouble than they would had. Very unfortunate.
Sorry to be off topic here.
More on topic:
as a cop in uniform I believe the decisions may be easier with many
scenarios. Either you using unacceptable behaviour to a cop or you are not.
As a civilian when somebody is physically screwing with you, it may be
harder to know when to start kicking, or throwing bodies away from you. I am
not saying this is always the case but more the usual.
"Paul Ross" <pr...@volcano.net> wrote in message
news:v94pavt...@corp.supernews.com...
Wayne
> Paul
> That was my point on the rape scenario that was being taught by rape
> "quickie" courses.
> If you aren't gonna' train and become good at a martial art...don't try to
> defned yourself half-way.
> These "10 week self defence courses" usually get raped women into more
> trouble than they would had. Very unfortunate.
Gym Bob, you have a real knack for presenting unsubstatiated speculation as
fact. Where did you acquire this skill? I won't even ask you upon what you
base your conclusions. They appear to originate squarely in your
imaginaton.
Wayne
Prometheus
Well,
I sorta thought it nested nicely with a number of your own points Wayne.
Namely (and I paraphrase):
1. It takes time to condition ourselves to properly react effectively to
stressful situations so that we do not "freeze up" or think too much.
2. Half hearted defenses only further enrage our attackers.
3. Anything less than a 100% spontaneous unthinking defense makes one's
training useless.
As I read it Gym Bob's point he seems to be affirming yours. So I'm not
sure on what basis you are challenging him.
(Unless of course you simply don't like groundless assertions but such a
position could easily be turned back on you e.g. points 1 & 2 are basically
yours but like Gym Bob's they amount to unsubstantiated speculation
presented as facts. Unless YOU have sources to refer US to validate them,
your points are no more or less valid than any other.)
P.S. this the part is where we all agree to discuss matters of common
knowledge without having to produce laboratory studies..............
Prometheus.
Wayne
I don't think it takes a long time to condition oneself properly. It
depends, in part on how many responses you are trying to condition. The
"freeze up" response, or analysis paralysis is usually taught, through the
effects of poor training methods, in my experience, rather than the way an
untrained person, who has been attacked before might react.
> 2. Half hearted defenses only further enrage our attackers.
Half-hearted, yes. As if it is a token guesture, but you want it really.
Even if the defense does not stop, say, a rape occuring, the victim's
actions should suggest in all possible ways, that there is no complience.
> 3. Anything less than a 100% spontaneous unthinking defense makes one's
> training useless.
I don't mean this. I mean defence which bears no resemblence to what was
trained, even when said trained defense was most appropriate.
> As I read it Gym Bob's point he seems to be affirming yours. So I'm not
> sure on what basis you are challenging him.
>
> (Unless of course you simply don't like groundless assertions but such a
> position could easily be turned back on you e.g. points 1 & 2 are
basically
> yours but like Gym Bob's they amount to unsubstantiated speculation
> presented as facts.
I don't think those ponts are basically mine, or even like my points. My
position is simply that I hear an odd sounding statement, which is the
converse of my own experience and most other credible sources, that I know
of. I then ask myself, "how could this person possible know that?" I
arrive at no answer. I look for clues, in the text. I see non. I then
decide that the conclusion is a groundless fantasy, probably.
> Unless YOU have sources to refer US to validate them,
> your points are no more or less valid than any other.)
That's fine if you don't believe something I say. It's not that I'll always
be right, but I'll make an effort to have some sort of grounds to my
assertions. I do get slightly heated when, in my estimation, important
matters are not treated with enough care. If it was a discussion on whether
or not chicken had taste, well that would be a different matter. :)
> P.S. this the part is where we all agree to discuss matters of common
> knowledge without having to produce laboratory studies..............
Great! Now the unschooled can speak :)
Wayne
Wayne
> 1. It takes time to condition ourselves to properly react effectively to
> stressful situations so that we do not "freeze up" or think too much.
Just out of interest, how long does it take to learn not to freeze up when
attacked? Do children usually freeze up when attacked? If not, who taught
them that reaction is better than inaction?
Wayne
Shoe
have no scientific basis to prove this on. I do know that when I was a kid
I wasn't afraid of anything except these two freaky ass "Tales From the
Crypt" stories I saw when I was real young, and that was only because I
could relate them to real life extremely easily.
Just a thought
Shoe
"Wayne" <wayne_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Otdla.6267$Bj3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Prometheus
>
> "Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:wA3la.419348$S_4.486197@rwcrnsc53...
>
> > 1. It takes time to condition ourselves to properly react effectively
to
> > stressful situations so that we do not "freeze up" or think too much.
>
> Just out of interest, how long does it take to learn not to freeze up when
> attacked?
Gee, I don't really know. I guess it depends on a number of things like the
nature of the training we receive, whether we train with a proper simulation
of reality, and the intensity and the level of surprise associated with the
real world attack.
I'm merely saying that becoming startled or even momentarily frozen by an
unexpected attack is common and quite natural. I'm speaking of the initial
involuntary initial response to surprise in which we do not exercise
conscious control over our bodies. I believe it takes some conditioning to
make our involuntary response a coordinated one.
> Do children usually freeze up when attacked?
I don't know.....maybe, probably, see above.
> If not, who taught
> them that reaction is better than inaction?
I have a hard time following your logic sometimes Wayne so forgive me if I
failed to address the intent of your questions. I took from your previous
posts that you were arguing for point #1. It now seems you are refuting it.
Let me say this though: There's a reason for words like "startled" and
phrases like "scared stiff" in the English language. Reactions such as
these are expressions of a rather common, almost universal, involuntary
initial response to intense surprise and they are generally accepted as
quite natural and unremarkable. These involuntary reactions are not
precisely the same as the other stress responses which I was speaking of
earlier in this thread. (Those are an equally common result of prolonged
exposure to the stress hormones released into the system during intense
stress, but they are kin.) Both are natural physiological responses to
surprise and intense stress. Both are generally involuntary.
These natural reactions can be overcome and coordinated by proper and
repetitive conditioning but not easily and not overnight IMHO.
Prometheus
Wayne
"Prometheus" <ucen...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:Afgla.402010$F1.60403@sccrnsc04...
>
> "Wayne" <wayne_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Otdla.6267$Bj3....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >
> > "Prometheus" <neol...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:wA3la.419348$S_4.486197@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> > > 1. It takes time to condition ourselves to properly react effectively
> to
> > > stressful situations so that we do not "freeze up" or think too much.
> >
> > Just out of interest, how long does it take to learn not to freeze up
when
> > attacked?
>
> Gee, I don't really know. I guess it depends on a number of things like
the
> nature of the training we receive, whether we train with a proper
simulation
> of reality, and the intensity and the level of surprise associated with
the
> real world attack.
Well, I thought you were suggesting that training an action to become
automatic took a long time. I don't believe this is neccesarily so.
Imagine jumping out and giving someone a powerful thrash with a banboo shoot
on some exposed flesh. Do this a few times and you have already trained in
them an automatic jumpy response. But I see you have already acknowledged
that the nature of the training plays a part, in the duration needed.
> I'm merely saying that becoming startled or even momentarily frozen by an
> unexpected attack is common and quite natural. I'm speaking of the
initial
> involuntary initial response to surprise in which we do not exercise
> conscious control over our bodies. I believe it takes some conditioning
to
> make our involuntary response a coordinated one.
I think you moved from overal response to initial response. My point is
that being crudely effective can be imparted by any competent trainer in a
short space of time. Naturally, more finely honed responses take longer.
> > Do children usually freeze up when attacked?
>
> I don't know.....maybe, probably, see above.
>
> > If not, who taught
> > them that reaction is better than inaction?
>
> I have a hard time following your logic sometimes Wayne so forgive me if I
> failed to address the intent of your questions. I took from your previous
> posts that you were arguing for point #1. It now seems you are refuting
it.
You're forgiven. lol Please make explicit, the contradiction.
> Let me say this though: There's a reason for words like "startled" and
> phrases like "scared stiff" in the English language.
There is also a reason for the phrases "scared shitless," and it's converse,
"to poo one's pants." Are you suggesting that everyone is hard-wired with a
single response to fear?
> Reactions such as
> these are expressions of a rather common, almost universal, involuntary
> initial response to intense surprise and they are generally accepted as
> quite natural and unremarkable.
I could just as easily describe to you a number of involuntary defensive
moves which I have excuted, that I was not born with and did not have up
until I trained them.
> These involuntary reactions are not
> precisely the same as the other stress responses which I was speaking of
> earlier in this thread. (Those are an equally common result of prolonged
> exposure to the stress hormones released into the system during intense
> stress, but they are kin.) Both are natural physiological responses to
> surprise and intense stress.
I am taking your use of the word 'natural' to mean something akin to genetic
or immutable. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> Both are generally involuntary.
Once you are thoroughly trained one way, it is hard to act another way.
> These natural reactions can be overcome and coordinated by proper and
> repetitive conditioning but not easily and not overnight IMHO.
Yes overnight, in my opinion this is possible and also documented. Is it
likely, probably not in all cases. I don't like your use of 'overcme.' I
feel that the body's natural responses should be augmented and channeled,
rather than suppressed or removed. Isn't this in keeping with the Aikido
philosophy?
Wayne
Prometheus
Fair enough.... I think I understand your position quite a bit better. I
see your point with regard to negative or aversion conditioning e.g. wacking
someone with a bamboo shoot. You do get a "jumpy" response in fairly short
order.
I'd only comment that I was thinking more along the lines of complicated or
highly coordinated responses such as one sees in Aikido techniques. I think
these highly coordinated responses are much harder to make automatic as
reflexive startle responses.
Yes/no??
Prom
Simon Slavin
"Gym Bob" <None...@notspam.com> wrote:
>More on topic:
For what ? This thread is cross-posted to all these groups
alt.martial-arts.aikido,
alt.martial-arts.karate,
alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan,
alt.martial-arts.tae-kwon-do
and it's not on-charter for three of them, possibly not for the
fourth. Could you all please stop posting to groups you don't
read ? Thanks for your help.
Mike Dobony
> That was my point on the rape scenario that was being taught by rape
> "quickie" courses.
> If you aren't gonna' train and become good at a martial art...don't try to
> defned yourself half-way.
> These "10 week self defence courses" usually get raped women into more
> trouble than they would had. Very unfortunate.
>
Prove it my something other than your opinion. Give me some actual studies
to back up your opinion.
Are you saying that prevention techniques are a waste of time? Are you
suggesting that unless a woman has a black belt and 10 years of training
that it would be useless to resist?
Surviving Sexual Violence, 1988. Liz Kelly, University of Minnesota. A
study of 60 women who had been assaulted. "It is only by resisting, that
women have a chance to avoid being raped." "In each case, it was the
woman's resistance which resulted in them being able to avoid rape."
Stopping Rape: Successful Survival Strategies, 1985. Pauline B. Bart, UCLA,
Patrica H. O'Brien, St. Zavier College. A study of 94 women who had been
assaulted. ". . . women who made absolutely no attempt to resist were all
raped."
United States Department of Justice, Bureau of Statistics - 1991. Between
1973 and 1987 over 2.3 million women *reported* sexual assaults in the US.
71% of these victims *avoided* being raped by taking self-defense protective
measures.
University of Nebraska-Omaha study published in the American Journal of
Public Health, November 1993. A study of 150 women in a year-long sampel of
sexual assaults reported to the police. Women who were forceful about
resisting a would-be rapist were less likely to be raped and no more likely
to be injured thatn those who resist weakly or not at all.
The fact is that simply "correcting" a woman's natural physical defenses
tremendously improves a woman's success rate in defending herself. Look at
the student the first day of class. Consider how effective they could be if
instead of teaching just the right stance, the language, and the ceramony
they concentrated on just practicing how to make a fist and striking, how to
do a simple kick to the groin by lifting the knee and then extending the
foot. What about ignoring the fringe and focus on only the meat of a
physical confrontation? What about focusing on the 90% of safety instead of
the 10%? Do you know the safe way to walk to your car or hold your keys?
Were you taught how to make your home unwelcome to rapists and thieves? Do
you know what to do or where to go if you think you are being followed?
Again, a lesson from Karate Kid, it is not how much you know, but how well
you know it. Even through the Redman2000 suit, I have had injuries from
these women who can now do some serious injury after 9 FOCUSED hours of
training, usually 12 hours. They can kick extremely well. They can do some
serious damage with a fist and elbow. As a MA instructor, I can vouch for
the effectiveness of the training. Actually, I feel more confident in RAD
training than I do in MA training! MA ignores the fundamentals in favor of
the fancy stuff. RAD is a better base to build a MA program. No, I
wouldn't put a RAD student up against a black belt, but in a street fight I
would trust an average RAD student over an average green or blue belt TKD
student.
Mike
Mike Dobony
problem. A sensible person would just throw the wallet and run. A stupid
idiot risks life and limb over a few dollars and credit cards that can be
easily canceled and replaced.
Mike
"Wayne" <wayne_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:CYvka.1022$4N5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
Tony Barajas
Person A asked persons B " Will you sleep with me for $100. Person B says
"not in your life time!" Person A asked " will you sleep with me for
$10,000" Person B says "no way!" Person A asked " will you sleep with me
for $1,000,000" Person B says "ok!" Person A then says " ok we have
determine that you are a whore now we are just haggling over the price!
My point. If any one decides to risk their life for anything they chose
too. This is now a mater of personal morals. NO ONE can assign morals to
some one else. To tell some one they are STUPID for risking ones life to
save ones wallet is a personal choice and that person has no right in
placing a moral judgment on some one else. I may not have worded this
appropriately, but I hope I got my point across. Does any one else agree?
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b76mhh$vpq$1...@ins22.netins.net...
Gym Bob
ever gone in the ring with a black belt non-contact martial artist. The
first punch contact they quit!
If you haven't had your head knocked senseless before you don't know what to
expect. It is fine to practice all this theory for years and years bit
people practicing full contact for a few months can usually make Karate and
othe MA people give up real quick.
These "quickie" courses are just waste of money for most women. If they had
the inner aggression they usually don't get raped in the first place. Now
the confidence boost (for some) is all that is needed to hopefully keep them
out of trouble in the first place.
The stats you provide with "got away" figures are determined by somebody's
perception of the situation and nothing else. I can't consider them honestly
in most cases because they appear to conflict with most other stats that can
be provided with a little research. It all depends on how you interpret
them.
Every rape situation is different. Interpretation and cool thinking on the
woman's part is usually all that is needed. Sure if she co-operates under
even the most wimpey rape attempt it is a definite but, if some big guy has
no problem screwing an unconscious bleeding woman then faking it and taking
it usually causes less physical damage to an unskilled woman. Three days of
anything may help her "avoid" the bad situation but 99% of women aren't
going to make good out of 3 days of training they took 10 years ago.
Don't get me wrong. I hope they would all fight for their rights but 3 days
does NOT teach some frightened woman how to fight well enough not to just
piss off the violent raper. The overzealous date probably!
An analogy the gun hold up.
If you know you can take this wimpey guy out and are sure of it, most of us
would probably do it if we feel our life was threatened but, if the huge
guy looks drug crazed, excited as hell and only wants a little money... and
you have only done nikyo/nikajo 3 times.......give it to him!
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b76md3$6vp$1...@ins22.netins.net...
Mike Dobony
> Talk to a full contact kick boxer or a full contact boxer. Ask if they
have
> ever gone in the ring with a black belt non-contact martial artist. The
> first punch contact they quit!
>
> If you haven't had your head knocked senseless before you don't know what
to
> expect. It is fine to practice all this theory for years and years bit
> people practicing full contact for a few months can usually make Karate
and
> othe MA people give up real quick.
>
Going into the ring is NOT the same as fighting for your life. There is NOT
comparison and to try to do that is total stupidity or total ignorance. Are
you stupid or ignorant?
> These "quickie" courses are just waste of money for most women. If they
had
> the inner aggression they usually don't get raped in the first place. Now
> the confidence boost (for some) is all that is needed to hopefully keep
them
> out of trouble in the first place.
>
Total ignorance on the subject. You know absolutly nothing about rape or
rapists or rape victims. Every person is a potential victim. These
"quickie" courses can help a woman do better what she is going to do anyway.
It is natural to punch and kick. What these "quickie" courses do, or
*should* do is help them to punch and kick more effectively. They should
make the women "cost" more to take on, more trouble then it is worth. You
seem to think that it is all or nothing. The fact is these
short, focused coursed DO work. You want to blame the victim for lack of
inner aggression.
Many have great inner aggression, but loose most of their power because they
do ignorant things like wrap their fingers around their thumb, or bend their
wrist and inflict more pain on themselves than on their attacker. They lack
focus by trying to just hit the opponent instead of picking out a specific
vulnerable target. They hit the guy in the chest, a very ineffective
target, instead of the nose or throat.
> The stats you provide with "got away" figures are determined by somebody's
> perception of the situation and nothing else. I can't consider them
honestly
> in most cases because they appear to conflict with most other stats that
can
> be provided with a little research. It all depends on how you interpret
> them.
>
Not at all! They got away because they did something. Every taregeted
women who did nothing got raped. Most of those who resisted excaped. There
is no intepretation needed in that. Either they were raped or they were
not. That is NOT subjected to "perception." Got away means escaped without
being raped.
> Every rape situation is different. Interpretation and cool thinking on the
> woman's part is usually all that is needed. Sure if she co-operates under
> even the most wimpey rape attempt it is a definite but, if some big guy
has
> no problem screwing an unconscious bleeding woman then faking it and
taking
> it usually causes less physical damage to an unskilled woman. Three days
of
> anything may help her "avoid" the bad situation but 99% of women aren't
> going to make good out of 3 days of training they took 10 years ago.
>
And without training they do not remain cool thinking. Your last point is
why we offer FREE lifetime training. I NEVER said that one class is enough.
How skilled does she need to be to make the effort cost too much to the
attacker? First, if somebody wants you bad enough you are his or hers,
PERIOD! However, in MOST cases she is better off resisting. If a short
course can help her focus on vital targets instead of wild flailing that
accomplishes nothing then the short course will be of benefit. If a short
course can help her keep the energy she has, eliminating energy leaks, then
the short course will be of benefit. Obviously the more weapons a woman has
and the more she practices, the better off she will be.
I have personally been involved in teaching over 100 women, many of them
police officers. There has been marked improvement in almost every one.
The others were already quite skilled. I would be proud to have each and
every one in my MA class.
> Don't get me wrong. I hope they would all fight for their rights but 3
days
> does NOT teach some frightened woman how to fight well enough not to just
> piss off the violent raper. The overzealous date probably!
>
PROVE IT!! You talk from total ignorance! The facts prove that ANY
resistance increases the chances of escape. The facts prove that ANY
increase in the effectiveness of an attack increases the chances of escape.
The facts show that teh risk of injury is equal if you resist or submit.
> An analogy the gun hold up.
> If you know you can take this wimpey guy out and are sure of it, most of
us
> would probably do it if we feel our life was threatened but, if the huge
> guy looks drug crazed, excited as hell and only wants a little money...
and
> you have only done nikyo/nikajo 3 times.......give it to him!
>
Skip the part about "have only done nikyo/nikajo 3 times" and you are
correct. The best thing to do is give the idiot the money and run!
You seem to think I am promoting EITHER a 12 hr course OR a long-term MA
class. I am NOT. A MA class that teaches from a self-defense point of view
is obviously better than a short course done once. Then again, how much of
a MA class is totally unnecessary to defend oneself, such as learning the
names of the movements in Korean, Chinese, Japanese, etc., perfect foot
placement for a stance, holding the arm at exactly a 90 degree angle with
the wrist at exactly the right spot, saluting the flags, the tenets of the
MA, etc. Without all these fringe items, you would be surprised at how much
you can teach and practice in 12-15 hours. By focusing on a specific threat
and the common profiles of such attacks you do not have to waste time on a
startling array of defenses and attacks. You focus on specific, common
attacks instead of theoretical attacks that happen once every 1,000 attacks.
You don't need to have the feet in exactly the perfect place. You need to
be balanced and stable. You don't need to have the arm and hand in exactly
the proper TKD, or Karate, or Aikido position. You just need the hand in a
reasonable position that allows good visibility and ready to block and
strike.
You are partially correct, one short course is not good for a lifetime.
Again, that is why we not only offer, but encourage students to return to
practice, and they return for FREE, no matter what they paid for the first
class. Many of our one-time students who have found themselves in a
position to have to physically defend themselves have done an excellent job
of defending themselves. Only those who choose to submit for one reason or
another were raped. Then there were those who, because of the training,
were able to recognize the warning signs and left BEFORE needing to resort
to physical defenses to escape.
Many of our certified instructors are martial artists. I do not know of a
single one that does not prefer RAD over traditional martial arts. Most
still do MA, but if forced to give up one or the other would give up MA
before RAD because it is so efficient and effective. I happen to be one of
those. I have too much going on and would rather do something that does
more good for general public.
--
Mike D.
Remove .spamnot to respond by email
--
"The brave may not live forever,
but the cautious never live at all."
From "Princess Diaries"
Mike Dobony
"Tony Barajas" <rapi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dLCla.415734$3D1.223787@sccrnsc01...
> Putting in my 2 cents. This is a joke that goes something like this.
> Person A asked persons B " Will you sleep with me for $100. Person B says
> "not in your life time!" Person A asked " will you sleep with me for
> $10,000" Person B says "no way!" Person A asked " will you sleep with me
> for $1,000,000" Person B says "ok!" Person A then says " ok we have
> determine that you are a whore now we are just haggling over the price!
>
>
>
> My point. If any one decides to risk their life for anything they chose
> too. This is now a mater of personal morals. NO ONE can assign morals to
> some one else. To tell some one they are STUPID for risking ones life to
> save ones wallet is a personal choice and that person has no right in
> placing a moral judgment on some one else. I may not have worded this
> appropriately, but I hope I got my point across. Does any one else agree?
>
Truth is in the eyes of the individual? So it was okay for Sadam to murder
hundreds of thousands of his own people? So it was okay for Hitler to take
over Europe and exterminate the Jews?
Why do you mix morals with intelligence? They are two separate issues. If
you want to address the morals of the scenerio how about this, it is totally
immoral to encourage someone to fight to protect one's wallet. It could
also lead, and rightfully so, (hopefully so!) to a lawsuit against the
idiot who encourages people to needlessly risk life and limb over $10, 2
credit cards, some lipstick, and a hairbrush. Someone might actually do it
and end up in either the hospital or morgue. THAT is immoral!
Gym Bob
you react the same way you are teaching these "rape victims". You imagine
somewhere in your mind you are being attacked and then righteously defend
and call it a success adding to your statistics for the future sale.
I made no evaluation at all of yourself before your post. What I do know
now is that you have invested a fair amount of time and money. It is good
that you publicly demonstrate you believe in what you sell.
As for ignorance of these matters, you have no idea of my experiences at all
and speak blindly, aloud.
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b79dt4$lqa$1...@ins22.netins.net...
> Total ignorance on the subject. You know absolutly nothing about rape or
> rapists or rape victims. Every person is a potential victim. These
> "quickie" courses can help a woman do better what she is going to do
anyway.
> It is natural to punch and kick.
> And without training they do not remain cool thinking. Your last point is
> why we offer FREE lifetime training. I NEVER said that one class is
enough.
>
> > Don't get me wrong. I hope they would all fight for their rights but 3
Gym Bob
dollars that is important, it is the 6 months of applying for new cards and
straightening your financial crap out that counts. Mine wasn't all settled
for almost a year.
On one hand you promote women crushing some guy's windpipe and rupturing his
balls because of the funny wink or the perceived slight of hand he did on
their breast at the party/dance, (and now you might say they learn graduated
levels of defence in 12 hours??) and on the other hand you think it is
immoral to defend your wallet? I think it is a personal decision that can
only be made by the person at the time. Who knows how attacked or
intimidated he/she felt. Sometimes the bully will get away with it and
sometimes the weakling is going to jail for swearing back. It's a bitch.
When you speak blindly, do it a little softer perhaps.
I hope tommorrow will be a better day for you and everyone.
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b79ker$kgf$1...@ins22.netins.net...
>
> "Tony Barajas" <rapi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:dLCla.415734$3D1.223787@sccrnsc01...
> > My point. If any one decides to risk their life for anything they chose
Steve Tew
<rapi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Putting in my 2 cents. This is a joke that goes something like this.
>Person A asked persons B " Will you sleep with me for $100. Person B says
>"not in your life time!" Person A asked " will you sleep with me for
>$10,000" Person B says "no way!" Person A asked " will you sleep with me
>for $1,000,000" Person B says "ok!" Person A then says " ok we have
>determine that you are a whore now we are just haggling over the price!
>
>
>
>My point. If any one decides to risk their life for anything they chose
>too.
Right on...
>This is now a mater of personal morals.
Not in total. Morals might have something to do with the mix of
complex reactive forces that make up the response, though.
>NO ONE can assign morals to
>some one else.
Pretty well accepted exept in the sense of an active assignment rather
than an informed judgement.
>To tell some one they are STUPID for risking ones life to
>save ones wallet is a personal choice and that person has no right in
>placing a moral judgment on some one else.
Do you mean that a person should not pass judgement on another, after
the fact of an altercation, where that other person has elected to
defend something as trivial as the wallet?
> I may not have worded this
>appropriately, but I hope I got my point across. Does any one else agree?
I agree because of the dynamics of conflict and the varying degrees of
and types of training (or lack thereof) that are manifest in the
population. There are certain cases where it is obviously foolish to
try to defend by force, though. This is something that has no pat
answer.
Steve
Mike Dobony
> Some good points there but let me comment on your personal attacks. It
seems
> you react the same way you are teaching these "rape victims". You imagine
> somewhere in your mind you are being attacked and then righteously defend
> and call it a success adding to your statistics for the future sale.
>
> I made no evaluation at all of yourself before your post. What I do know
> now is that you have invested a fair amount of time and money. It is good
> that you publicly demonstrate you believe in what you sell.
>
> As for ignorance of these matters, you have no idea of my experiences at
all
> and speak blindly, aloud.
>
Your ignorance is obvious. Ignorance is only lack of the facts. You
demonstrate that in heaps by giving personal opinion that has no link to the
truth. You show no knowledge of how or why people attack. You show no
knowledge of risks. You show no knowledge of the effects of sexual assault.
You show know knowledge of the risks of various defenses. You show no
knowledge of assault at all. That is ignorance.
Mike
Gym Bob
from a perceived attack.
Have a good one
"Mike Dobony" <tkd...@hotmailspamnot.com> wrote in message
news:b7d52g$m38$1...@ins22.netins.net...
Mike Dobony
> Obviously you have never had your wallet stolen or missing. It isn't the
ten
> dollars that is important, it is the 6 months of applying for new cards
and
> straightening your financial crap out that counts. Mine wasn't all settled
> for almost a year.
>
Compare that to being in the hospital and having huge hospital bills for
surgery and lost time from work. Consider the very real possibility that
fighting might make your wife a widow. If it is simply your wallet on the
line, is it really smart (keep your morality out of the discussion, it does
not apply and you are the one who wants to include it, not me) to elevate
the risks? If they want your wallet and you, then you really do not have a
choice. That is a different situation and needs to be addressed separately.
> On one hand you promote women crushing some guy's windpipe and rupturing
his
> balls because of the funny wink or the perceived slight of hand he did on
> their breast at the party/dance, (and now you might say they learn
graduated
> levels of defence in 12 hours??) and on the other hand you think it is
> immoral to defend your wallet? I think it is a personal decision that can
> only be made by the person at the time. Who knows how attacked or
> intimidated he/she felt. Sometimes the bully will get away with it and
> sometimes the weakling is going to jail for swearing back. It's a bitch.
>
We do NOT NOT NOT promote crushing some guy's windpipe and rupturing his
balls because of a funny wink. You are a total idiot for trying to imply
that I did. It is totally contrary to everything I have said so far. Talk
about immorality, what about lying and slander?
Why do you insist on referring to morality? What is your hangup? Why do
you insist on bringing up morality? I am talking about being smart. I am
also talking about being legal.
Steve Tew
wrote:
A guy grabbed my niece when she was about eight years old. He dragged
her to his car and threw her in the back seat. She screamed and
kicked and managed to climb out the window as he was getting into the
drivers seat. By then some bystanders were gathering and the guy took
off. If she had not fought with all her might to get away, if she had
been passive, I am convinced that she would be dead.
I don't think she had anyone teach her to react that way in such a
scenario, as the event took place long before there were any such
classes as there are now... But she has always been competitive and
athletic. Her natural inclinations to fight, kick, scream, and try to
get away saved her. I believe that the trendy "compliance" training
that is still pushed in some places is a parallel development of a
politically - correct appeasement mentality that is contrary to human
nature, and a destructive process that has caused many people to
become victims, when they otherwise would have been victors.
>
Steve Tew
wrote:
>Some good points there but let me comment on your personal attacks. It seems
>you react the same way you are teaching these "rape victims". You imagine
>somewhere in your mind you are being attacked and then righteously defend
>and call it a success adding to your statistics for the future sale.
>
>I made no evaluation at all of yourself before your post. What I do know
>now is that you have invested a fair amount of time and money. It is good
>that you publicly demonstrate you believe in what you sell.
>
>As for ignorance of these matters, you have no idea of my experiences at all
>and speak blindly, aloud.
What is your experience in these matters?
Steve
<Snipotherstuff>
Gym Bob
through a 3 hours street proofing course to not talk to strangers. Every
last oneof the 20 or so kids got in the stranger's car when offerred or
promised candy or toys that very afternnoon after the course. It was all
hidden camera filmed and concluded most of it was a waste of time.
but.............
It made the parents feel a whole lot more secure and helped them spend some
of their nonessential funds.
Very unfortunate stuff.
"Steve Tew" <sat...@attbidot.com> wrote in message
news:u76k9vg4put2th1fa...@4ax.com...
Prometheus
Good story Steve. I guess my point (and in a way it's not really even my
point since I was trying to summarize what I thought others had written)
dealt with a coordinated response like we see being trained in Aikido.
To borrow the piano analogy, your story amounts to this: when confronted
with a particular situation your niece managed to scream and bang on the
keys. Effective, no doubt, as your story attests but I was speaking more
along the line of the training required to be able to play a tune during the
same event I guess.
Prometheus.
Steve Tew
wrote:
Thanks,
But I was responding to Wayne's question with a roundabout "I dunno,
but I have a story" sort of approach.
As far as the issue of fine and gross motor control, and accumulated
trained skills (I do not tend to lump them together) I am convinced
that the individual and the event make up the moment... That is, that
although there are specific principles at work, the averages will vary
as the demographic is segmented into more minute samples.
Some things are clear, like fine motor control suffers under stress,
and there are training methods that can overcome this to certain
degrees. One of the better examples of this is the "point shooting"
training that is becoming popular. It relies on the body's natural
inclination to look at the attacker's weapon and the tendency to
freeze and have tunnel vision... When one trains to use body movement
that actually uses the natural reaction in the first place, the first
shot is quick and accurate, and follow-up aimed fire may be
accomplished afterwards.
Changing course slightly, I knew a guy some time back who was a black
belt in Shotokan who was accosted by a fellow in a stairwell. The
perp drew a gun and pointed it at the guy, who as soon as he saw it
crescent kicked and snap kicked, knocking the gun from the baddies
hand, and clocking him in the chin, sending him down the stairs
unconscious. He didn't even think about it, as it was automatic.
Training took over. He said that had he thought about it he never
would have done it. I am sure the results would have been quite
different with a change in the level of training that my friend had
had.
Steve
>
Prometheus
We're in total agreement. Thanks for the good post.
Prom.
Gym Bob
"what ifs"
LOL
"Prometheus" <ucen...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:8qTma.489004$S_4.542992@rwcrnsc53...
Tony
> belt in Shotokan who was accosted by a fellow in a stairwell. The
> perp drew a gun and pointed it at the guy, who as soon as he saw it
> crescent kicked and snap kicked, knocking the gun from the baddies
> hand, and clocking him in the chin, sending him down the stairs
> unconscious. He didn't even think about it, as it was automatic.
> Training took over. He said that had he thought about it he never
> would have done it. I am sure the results would have been quite
> different with a change in the level of training that my friend had
> had.
>
> Steve
What a crock of crap. I have a black belt in Shotokan, but to suggest that
training creates automatic reflexes is utterly stupid. If that were the
case, karateka would continually be killing and maiming friends who happen
to startle them inadvertently. If you don't believe me, go up to the
baddest self-proclaimed black belt badass you know (he'll probably tell
folks he's an 8th dan although only 30 years old) and during a casual
conversation, quickly fling your hand at his face. I'll bet you $10k that
he blinks rather than levels you.
Please do yourself a favor and visit 24fightingchickens.com.
Steve Tew
>> Changing course slightly, I knew a guy some time back who was a black
>> belt in Shotokan who was accosted by a fellow in a stairwell. The
>> perp drew a gun and pointed it at the guy, who as soon as he saw it
>> crescent kicked and snap kicked, knocking the gun from the baddies
>> hand, and clocking him in the chin, sending him down the stairs
>> unconscious. He didn't even think about it, as it was automatic.
>> Training took over. He said that had he thought about it he never
>> would have done it. I am sure the results would have been quite
>> different with a change in the level of training that my friend had
>> had.
>>
>> Steve
>
>What a crock of crap.
It's a true story.
>I have a black belt in Shotokan, but to suggest that
>training creates automatic reflexes is utterly stupid.
It would be stupid to suggest that training does not instill reflexive
responses that were not present before the training. For you to infer
that these responses are uncontrollable is idiotic in the extreme.
> If that were the
>case, karateka would continually be killing and maiming friends who happen
>to startle them inadvertently.
Only if the actions of the karateka were uncontrolable. But the
reason we train is get control of ourselves.
> If you don't believe me, go up to the
>baddest self-proclaimed black belt badass you know (he'll probably tell
>folks he's an 8th dan although only 30 years old) and during a casual
>conversation, quickly fling your hand at his face. I'll bet you $10k that
>he blinks rather than levels you.
That is the dumbest thing I have ever had anyone suggest to me. To
equate that little test with having a stranger approach with a weapon
in hand is really stupid.
>
>Please do yourself a favor and visit 24fightingchickens.com.
>
I've spent plenty of time at 24fc, but notice that the site has
changed quite a bit since my last visit.
You claim my little story is a crock of crap and launch into a tirade
that has nothing to do with the topic. If I was less polite I would
just call you a dipshit and move on. Since I assume that you have
some intent to contribute I offer further explanation.
I did not suggest that training builds uncontrolable automatic
reflexes. I just told a story that relates to the overall development
of the person. The fact that the guy said he didn't think about it,
as in ruminating over the social, legal, moral, tactical, aspects of
the encounter, or agonize over what to do since he hadn't probably
practiced the "gun defense in the stairwell" maneuver, has nothing to
do with uncontrolled automatic reflexes. It has everything to do with
being able to react in a way that is proper for the situation instead
of freezing and becoming a victim.
Your claim that training could result in inadvertant injury is valid
to a certain extent. In truth, if you have been training for some
time, you should be able to interpret the intent of someone a bit
better than the average person, and if you are surprised be able to
recover faster. There are cases where a "friendly test" has gotten
the tester injured, though.
Take a chill pill and try not to spend so much time being pissed off.
Rob has cooled slightly over the years, but as vitriolic as he was at
times, he was usually able to at least read what was written and did
not make such silly statements as you have made..
Steve
Prometheus
Just curious, did you miss this post or simply lose interest in answering?
I was interested in your response to this particlar question.
Prom
Tony
Steve, you also wrote:
"One of the black belts at the first dojo I attended talked about the
Goju Ryu dojo he studied in while stationed in Japan. One of the guys
that he loved to tell stories about liked "digital" blocks.... He
would use his index finger to strike the knee of an atackers kicking
leg, sometimes aparently sending the more serious oponents to the
hospital down the road.
Steve"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You know karate no better than you can spell!
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Steve Tew
It's a story that a guy who studied in Japan related to me back around
1971. I see you deftly sidestepped the issue at hand and just want to
sling mud.
I have never won a spelling bee... or is it be?
Oh. By the way. You have confirmed that you are a dipshit.
Thanks for playing.
Steve
CR
stuff that works. Haven't had to use it, (other than sparring other
students which is similar but not really like being on the street) and I
don't plan on picking fights in bars but if I get into a situation I feel
like the odds have been slanted in my favor dramatically over the past 2
years of Kenpo training.
Has both circular AND straight line techniques, some kicks, punches, elbows,
knees as well as some locks.
As with any style, has to be a good instructor and school or else style does
not matter..
"Habanero" <n...@spam.com> wrote in message
news:tl688v0jbm2fb84ee...@4ax.com...
>
> >like to learn Strong Kicks and punching strikes and combinations.. Maybe
> >some Locks also. Does that help a little more ? All opinions are
> >appreciated...
>
> Take a look at what American Kenpo Karate has to offer, its a blend of
> systems. It was the locks bit made me think of this.One advantage of
> this system is you wont have to learn japanese, korean or chinese.(not
> that thyis is a bad thing) Again like any style there are good schools
> and there are bad schools
>
> whatever you choose,
>
> happy journey.