Catching up!

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/5/97

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In article <33014bd9...@news.mindspring.com>, big...@mindspring.com
writes:

>Kumite training should be done without pads, and if anyone gets hurt, it
>isn't
>shotokan.
>
>

I have never had a really good sparring match where one or both of us
didn't get either a broken nose or ribs or at least some blood. When we
training for the world championships back in 94 at Dalke's dojo, the floor
and all of us were covered in blood. I'm not saying it should be that way
every day, but to say it's not Shotokan goes against my whole experience.
Just a point.

Lester Ingber

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Feb 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/5/97

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In article <19970205035...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
<allan...@aol.com> wrote:
:In article <33014bd9...@news.mindspring.com>, big...@mindspring.com

Sorry, but this is an example of lack of class discipline, and I
do know the classes you are referring to! We trained for many
years with regular hard sparring, and such accidents were the
exception, not the rule, albeit of course they did occur.

Lester
--
/* RESEARCH ing...@ingber.com *
* INGBER ftp://ftp.ingber.com *
* LESTER http://www.ingber.com/ *
* Prof. Lester Ingber __ PO Box 857 __ McLean, VA 22101-0857 __ USA */

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/6/97

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In article <5d9pb6$o...@shell3.ba.best.com>, Lester Ingber
<ing...@ingber.com> writes:

>We trained for many
>years with regular hard sparring, and such accidents were the
>exception, not the rule, albeit of course they did occur.
>
>

It is the exception, however, as a rule they should occur.

George Winter

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Feb 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/7/97

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On 5 Feb 1997 03:58:01 GMT, allan...@aol.com wrote:

>I have never had a really good sparring match where one or both of us
>didn't get either a broken nose or ribs or at least some blood.

I guess you can define "really good" anyway you want. The truth of the
matter is that if you had the same speed, kime, & spirit without the
contact, that would have been superior karate. You enjoy sparring
outside of your ability to control technique, this is certainly more
exciting, but counter to what we usually train.

I think tolerating excessive contact in the name or realism (or
whatever) breeds errors & impairs improvement. Excessively timid
sparring will also not advance the karateka as quickly. A little
blood, scrapes, or the odd banged nose is a price we are all used to
paying but should never be setup as the shotokan standard.

George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter
QSYS Ltd. gwi...@q-sys.com (work)
Information Systems Consulting George...@msn.com (home)

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/8/97

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In article <32fd9333...@news.mindspring.com>, George...@msn.com
(George Winter) writes:

>>I have never had a really good sparring match where one or both of us
>>didn't get either a broken nose or ribs or at least some blood.
>
>I guess you can define "really good" anyway you want.

Thank you. I will.

>The truth of the
>matter is that if you had the same speed, kime, & spirit without the
>contact, that would have been superior karate.

Define superior karate. I have had hundreds of great sparring matches
with no injuries on either side by choice. Then again, after a good match
with agreed upon contact levels, my sensitivity for distancing improves.

After years of sparring and training your distancing to always miss, you
may find it hard to apply maximum contact on demand. Of course you will
reply with some drivel about how "Me learna good distancing by not hitting
opponent" (little jap lingo there).

The fact is, to actually bury a punch to the gut far enough to break a
rib, while the opponent trys to escape, puts your face deep in enemy
territory. Which means you may get your face split open. But hey, that's
the price you pay to land a good one. To throw the same punch without the
extra 3-4 inches of penitration needed to bring'em down means your face is
in no danger. Now you both feel like good little karate warriors.

>You enjoy sparring
>outside of your ability to control technique, this is certainly more
>exciting, but counter to what we usually train.

99% of my sparring is non-contact. But when I have a good partner willing
to go the distance "we turn it up a notch" (Dalke expression). The
problem is most karate people are not willing to turn it on.

When I taught karate to the the troops in our camp while in Korea, after
teaching rising block and ensuring people performed it correctly, they
would pair off and throw a reverse punch to the face while the opponent
used rising block to defend. Then it would reverse. This was a non-stop
excercise. Back-and-forth building speed. The point was to try to punch
fast enough to actually strike you opponents face. Eventually one person
would land the punch, this of course, would destroy the opponents
concentration to the point he couldn't punch back right away. Meanwhile,
his partner, throws a rising block that is not needed because there was no
face punch reply. It didn't stop there, you keep throwing those punches.
Keep hitting them in the face. If they back up you shift in. There was
no escape. Eventually, all bloody and mad, they would get back in the game
and start blocking and countering.
I know this sounds mad, but we were in Korea with nothing else to do.
After the first time the would get driven to the wall in a bloody mess,
from then on if they were hit, they wouldn't even blink. They would just
keep their head up and eyes open while continuing to fight. We did the
same stuff for the gut punch and groin kick with down block.

I also realize this training doesn't work for everyday, with kids and
women, blah blah. I am speaking about people who want to do it and
volunteer.

>I think tolerating excessive contact in the name or realism (or
>whatever) breeds errors & impairs improvement. Excessively timid
>sparring will also not advance the karateka as quickly.

Nope. If you have the fortitude to drive on, you learn faster. You would
never try to train a marine with a sponge rifle to prevent him from
hurting his little fingers, then expect him to kill in spite of all pain
and suffering. You have to learn to keep going in spite of pain and
suffering. For most civilians, that means a few years of progressive
intensity. For military minded people it means, today.

A little
>blood, scrapes, or the odd banged nose is a price we are all used to
>paying but should never be setup as the shotokan standard.
>

Again, I don't speak of standards. I speak of after class, when the
recreational students go home, pull the blinds, lock the doors, sign your
insurance cards, and get down to business.

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/9/97

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In article <01bc1622$edbfcb40$8ea620cc@default>, "mark a goetsch"
<nom...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>Sounds good eh? Well too make our troops faster, let's fire live ammo not
>above their heads but as close too them as we can.

They do this. The more elite your military group the more realistic the
training. Including close quarter live fire excercises.

OOOOPs killed one, make
>that two...hey where is everyone going???

Happens every day. Sometimes the liberals booh hooh about it and it makes
the news, like all the rangers that died in training. Yes, they die in
training.

>There is usually greater force in the Karate punches than
>in a boxing punch.

Bulldoodie. Boxers hit things, including each other. Most pansy karate
people only hit the air. Then defend their lack of training with some
crap about accidently killing each other. Well I have been in a few
scuffles behind 7-11, and I have never killed with one blow. In fact the
only time I even heard about it happening was while I was living in
Hawaii, and some TKD guy did a spinning back kick to another guy and
killed him.

>A good technique can and will end a Karate carreer if caried out.

More bulldoodie. Unless you break a knee cap it won't happen. Not in a
match against to well trained people. You are thinking about a new white
belt against a sandan. Use your head.

>A cracked rib can puncture a lung (they used too teach this in the Army
but things >have changed), a broken nose if bad
>enough can kill the sniffers entirely and cause eye damage.
>Shall I go on!

Yeah!!!! Do you know how to treat a puntured lung from a broken rib?
Wrap the ribs to reduce pain and then suffer for 3-6 weeks. That's it. No
sugery, nothing. Why, it heals itself unless you rip the whole lung out.
A broken nose cannot kill the sniffers. No way, no how. At worse you
receive a deviated septum and need some minor surgery. I know, because my
nose has been broke twice and I have a deviated septum that screws up my
nose breathing. Eye damage! Help me Elmar. No way again. You cannot
lose your eyesight from a broken nose. You're thinking about a basal
fracture which causes the racoon eye look. This does not endager your
vision. Although other head strikes can. Yeah, please, go on. Go on to
the library and get an education about anatomy. Next, quit thinking that
karate techniques are going to kill people. Sheeesh!

> We have makiwaras and pads to test your distancing.

My makiwara doesn't move or strike back. Yours must be better than mine.
Pads? I can break your ribs through just about any pad you can wear and
still spar in.

>Now we haven't even talke about the brain damage
>that constant hitting with almost no padding if done over and over again.
>Any time that you go home with a headache from a technique should be an
>indication of this.

Nope. Shit, I get a headache reading karate drivel. Now I do believe
this causes brain damage. :-) You get brain damage in boxing because
the skull is rattled around. A good karate punch will split your skull
open before it rattles you brain.

Mark, I know you don't get this stuff from Sugiyama's dojo. Do you know
that they used to take all new shodans out the south side, then you had to
attack, and beat the hell out the next person that walks around the
corner. They also used to go down to the docks and get in fights with the
shoremen just to test their skills. Last of all, when they let you "in"
you will probably quit. I guarentee you, they will break all of your
ribs, your nose, and if your lucky, just knock you out. The chicago dojo
used to be a tough place to be, maybe you enlighted them and now they get
together after class for an advanced sewing session.

Don't take it personal Mark. I quit Sugiyamas dojo because the seniors
there are dirt bags and could privately e-mail you some evil stuff they
have done.

mark a goetsch

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Feb 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/9/97

to

$ After years of sparring and training your distancing to always miss, you
$ may find it hard to apply maximum contact on demand. Of course you will
$ reply with some drivel about how "Me learna good distancing by not
hitting
$ opponent" (little jap lingo there).
$ 99% of my sparring is non-contact. But when I have a good partner
willing
$ to go the distance "we turn it up a notch" (Dalke expression). The
$ problem is most karate people are not willing to turn it on.
$ I also realize this training doesn't work for everyday, with kids and
$ women, blah blah. I am speaking about people who want to do it and
$ volunteer.
$ Nope. If you have the fortitude to drive on, you learn faster. You
would
$ never try to train a marine with a sponge rifle to prevent him from
$ hurting his little fingers, then expect him to kill in spite of all pain
$ and suffering. You have to learn to keep going in spite of pain and
$ suffering. For most civilians, that means a few years of progressive
$ intensity. For military minded people it means, today.

Sounds good eh? Well too make our troops faster, let's fire live ammo not

above their heads but as close too them as we can. OOOOPs killed one, make
that two...hey where is everyone going??? Realism can be gained in many
different ways. There is usually greater force in the Karate punches than
in a boxing punch. The opponents don't train to take the hits like boxers,
and hey like who needs gloves for this. A good technique can and will end a
Karate carreer if caried out. A cracked rib can puncture a lung (they used

too teach this in the Army but things have changed), a broken nose if bad
enough can kill the sniffers entirely and cause eye damage.

Shall I go on! When the Japanese trained this way (at least this is what
they say) classes of 1000 could be whittled down to 10-20 in a couple of
months, and a number of good fighters were forced out of Karate with
serious injuries (kidney operations and the like.). To invite this even
with a willing opponent is just plain stupid. We have makiwaras and pads to
to test your distancing. Now we haven't even talke about the brain damage

that constant hitting with almost no padding if done over and over again.
Any time that you go home with a headache from a technique should be an
indication of this.

Mark Goetsch
Member JKA of Chicago

mark a goetsch

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Feb 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/9/97

to

Allender wrote :

$$ I have never had a really good sparring match where one or both of us
$$ didn't get either a broken nose or ribs or at least some blood.

George wrote :

$ I guess you can define "really good" anyway you want. The truth of the
$ matter is that if you had the same speed, kime, & spirit without the
$ contact, that would have been superior karate. You enjoy sparring
$ outside of your ability to control technique, this is certainly more
$ exciting, but counter to what we usually train.

$ I think tolerating excessive contact in the name or realism (or
$ whatever) breeds errors & impairs improvement. Excessively timid
$ sparring will also not advance the karateka as quickly. A little
$ blood, scrapes, or the odd banged nose is a price we are all used to
$ paying but should never be setup as the shotokan standard.

I agree with George. Most of the times that I have seen rampant injuries
have occured where the fighters were ill-trained or out of practice. The
only way that you can cause bad injury is too hit into the target, a good
free-sparrer will pull the majority of his power if he sees his distance as
being too close. Even if the hit is there the punch is stopped on the
surface of the target which saves the teeth and nose. Accidents do happen
but they should be rare.

mark a goetsch

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Feb 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/9/97

to

$ The Marine Force Recon does this regularly. Some police forces in
Georgia
$ play army with live ammo, too, although they aren't aiming at each other.
If
$ you cannot control live ammo fire, how can you be expected to make a
living
$ carrying a gun?

Handling Live Ammo is one thing. Being shot at is another. of these groups
(long story, but I've In Advanced Basic accidents did happen but there
safety was also stressed. If for example you had a rifle and fired that
rifle in the direction of someone else with live ammo, even if you weren't
aiming at that person a DI would pound you into the ground. They will fire
live rounds over the head but not at a person.

$ Sure. Regular recruits die in the Okeefenokee Swamp during training
exercises
$ out of Fort Benning, GA all the time. Navy Aviators fly their f-18's
into the
$ drink and die almost monthly. Etc etc...

If the commanding Officer is found negligent he is thrown out and arrested
as well as being open fo a number of lawsuits which are usually won.

$ I have to agree, if you are comparing top boxers with top karateka, the
$ difference is usually astoundingly clear. Top karateka don't train much,
are
$ usually 10 or 20 lbs overweight, and are in the "retired" mode. That's
about
$ when their technique gets interesting. Boxers, on the other hand, are
usually
$ conditioning all day everyday.

$ However, a karate punch from a large man, perfectly executed, will have a
nice
$ amount of pressure that it can deliver, and sharp knuckles are better
than
$ what boxers use (the whole fist.)

I'll agree here.

$$ Well I have been in a few
$$scuffles behind 7-11, and I have never killed with one blow.

I don't believe I said killed.

$ And, you never will. Get those combinations ready. Your reverse punch
to the
$ solar plexus loses potential effectiveness as the height, width, and
strength
$ of the opponent increases. Case in point: I allow some of my smaller
$ students to use me for a makiwara. My stomach is hardly strong enough to
$ withstand a full-blown karate punch, but little people cannot hurt me.

The stomache can take a good deal of punishment. A good front kick just
below the stomache will involve a trip to the hospital. Floating Ribs are
extremely vulnerable to being broken. The sternum even for big people
doesn't require a huge amount of pressure to break (of course minus the
heavy winter clothes). The temple is an obvious problem in particular when
facing spinning back roundhouse kickers. Just above the eye with a good
punch will leave stitches. There is also a book out (I'll get the ISBN when
I have a chance) that some Brirish M.D.'s did that have some surprising
results.

$ Yes. You cannot break your nose. There are no bones in it. There is
$ cartilage, nothing more.

I'm not a Doctor but I did see a bad hit too the nose that had blood all
over the place and after two years only a potion of his ability too smell
is back.

$ Pads are not good for distancing. They inhibit it, in my opinion.

By pads I mean pads you hit not pads on your hands.Sorry.

$$ Mark, I know you don't get this stuff from Sugiyama's dojo. Do you know
$$ that they used to take all new shodans out the south side, then you had
to
$$ attack, and beat the hell out the next person that walks around the
$$ corner. They also used to go down to the docks and get in fights with
the
$$ shoremen just to test their skills. Last of all, when they let you "in"
$$ you will probably quit. I guarentee you, they will break all of your
$$ ribs, your nose, and if your lucky, just knock you out. The chicago
dojo
$$ used to be a tough place to be, maybe you enlighted them and now they
get
$$ together after class for an advanced sewing session.

No, we just added control. Of course there are times that you get tagged
but even if their is getting tagged there is enough control to avoid
permanent injury. Bruises are part of the training, it's the excess stuff
that is the problem. The Chicago Dojo can still be a tough place, mainly
because many of the Seniors are still around. The two things that are not
allowed and have never been allowed are emotional matches where there is
clearly anger being shown (this can lead to the person being removed from
sparring altogether) and excess hitting or hitting without showing control
(which means you don't go to an advanced class for a couple of months). On
the other hand we allow the ladies to kick to the groin in freesparring and
hit with full contact to the stomache as well as a number of things.

$$ Don't take it personal Mark. I quit Sugiyamas dojo because the seniors
$$ there are dirt bags and could privately e-mail you some evil stuff they
$$ have done.

Let me know. I probably have heard about most of them anyhow and
experienced a couple.

George Winter

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Feb 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/10/97

to

On 8 Feb 1997 21:37:36 GMT, allan...@aol.com wrote:

>In article <32fd9333...@news.mindspring.com>, George...@msn.com
>(George Winter) writes:
>

>>>I have never had a really good sparring match where one or both of us

>>>didn't get either a broken nose or ribs or at least some blood.
>>

>>I guess you can define "really good" anyway you want.
>

>Thank you. I will.

I think that is the crux of the disagreement. If you define good=(good
stuff)+injury that's that. I say good=speed+power+quality
technique+spirit. I have had ribs broken & my nose mushed & I do not
recall that they were particularly good matches.

>
>Define superior karate. I have had hundreds of great sparring matches
>with no injuries on either side by choice.

Then why do you say "I have never had a really good ...". Don't bother
responding, I realize its 90% hyperbole. Its a good technique to
generate responses in Usenet.

>After years of sparring and training your distancing to always miss, you

>may find it hard to apply maximum contact on demand. Of course you will

>reply with some drivel about how "Me learna good distancing by not hitting

>opponent" (little jap lingo there).
>

Me learna good distancing by practicing. I know I can whack someone if
I want to. I use the same rule of thumb that Dan mentioned. Hit me too
hard & I will thump you back.

>99% of my sparring is non-contact. But when I have a good partner willing

>to go the distance "we turn it up a notch" (Dalke expression). The

>problem is most karate people are not willing to turn it on.
>

The concept of consenting adults certainly applies to karate training.
What pisses me off is a lot of time people go too hard without prior
notification. I think it is part of karate training to be able to
stand up to a fight. I won't back down from someone who wants to go
hard. Its not my preference, but its an understandable extension of
kumite. What annoys me is people think this level of unpleasant
contact represents "real" fighting. I sparred with a Kyokushinkai guy
who thought all other karate guys were fags in pajamas. He sparred
"full power" all the time. Ha!

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/10/97

to

On 9 Feb 1997 07:03:09 GMT, allan...@aol.com wrote:

>Nope. Shit, I get a headache reading karate drivel. Now I do believe
>this causes brain damage. :-) You get brain damage in boxing because
>the skull is rattled around. A good karate punch will split your skull
>open before it rattles you brain.

Gotta agree here <g>. Man, I'm glad you're back.

>Mark, I know you don't get this stuff from Sugiyama's dojo. Do you know

>that they used to take all new shodans out the south side, then you had to

>attack, and beat the hell out the next person that walks around the

>corner. They also used to go down to the docks and get in fights with the

>shoremen just to test their skills. Last of all, when they let you "in"

>you will probably quit. I guarentee you, they will break all of your

>ribs, your nose, and if your lucky, just knock you out. The chicago dojo

>used to be a tough place to be, maybe you enlighted them and now they get

>together after class for an advanced sewing session.

Reminds me of when I moved down here and wanted to learn to fight and be
national champion (like I had a chance in hell - but hey I was young and
stupid), i asked sensei and the reply was "go to bars and get in fights"

I would not recommend this behavior today. The headline would read "karateka
killed by mac10 after bruising drunk"

>
>Don't take it personal Mark. I quit Sugiyamas dojo because the seniors

>there are dirt bags and could privately e-mail you some evil stuff they

>have done.
>
Well, that was true of most of the older JKA elders. I know those that hate
Dalke. Chuck Colburn was evil, Frank Smith was not nice, etc. etc.

dan

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/10/97

to

On 9 Feb 1997 23:40:34 GMT, mark a goetsch wrote:

>$$ Don't take it personal Mark. I quit Sugiyamas dojo because the seniors
>$$ there are dirt bags and could privately e-mail you some evil stuff they
>$$ have done.
>
>Let me know. I probably have heard about most of them anyhow and
>experienced a couple.
>

Gee, I wonder why???? (snicker,snicker). Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

dan

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

to

In article <32fe063...@news.mindspring.com>,
Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com writes:

>However, a karate punch from a large man, perfectly executed, will have a
>nice

>amount of pressure that it can deliver, and sharp knuckles are better
than

>what boxers use (the whole fist.)
>

You're gett'n me excited!!!! :-@

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

to

In article <01bc16e3$6255aae0$5b685ecf@default>, "mark a goetsch"
<nom...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>$ The Marine Force Recon does this regularly. Some police forces in
>Georgia
>$ play army with live ammo, too, although they aren't aiming at each
other.
> If
>$ you cannot control live ammo fire, how can you be expected to make a
>living
>$ carrying a gun?
>
>Handling Live Ammo is one thing. Being shot at is another. of these
groups
>(long story, but I've In Advanced Basic accidents did happen but there
>safety was also stressed. If for example you had a rifle and fired that
>rifle in the direction of someone else with live ammo, even if you
weren't
>aiming at that person a DI would pound you into the ground. They will
fire
>live rounds over the head but not at a person.
>

You're talking about boot. It's like saying, we should pound the crap out
of white belts. You're still not using your head.

>$ And, you never will. Get those combinations ready. Your reverse punch
>to the
>$ solar plexus loses potential effectiveness as the height, width, and
>strength
>$ of the opponent increases. Case in point: I allow some of my smaller
>$ students to use me for a makiwara. My stomach is hardly strong enough
to
>$ withstand a full-blown karate punch, but little people cannot hurt me.
>
>The stomache can take a good deal of punishment. A good front kick just
>below the stomache will involve a trip to the hospital. Floating Ribs are
>extremely vulnerable to being broken. The sternum even for big people
>doesn't require a huge amount of pressure to break (of course minus the
>heavy winter clothes). The temple is an obvious problem in particular
when
>facing spinning back roundhouse kickers. Just above the eye with a good
>punch will leave stitches. There is also a book out (I'll get the ISBN
when
>I have a chance) that some Brirish M.D.'s did that have some surprising
>results.
>

The entire body can take a "good deal of punishment." Yes floating ribs
are easily broken, then again so is the pinky toe. If you're in karate
long enough, both will be broken many times. You learn to say to yourself
during a good match, "Oh, hell, he broke my ?" Then you follow the FIDO
"F*** It & Drive On."

Have you ever, ever, heard of a broken sternum???????????????????????????
I want to read the freaking article. That kind of crap does not happen.
If it ever has it was so rare even the ER doc. was shocked. I know, my
sister-in-law is an ER doc.

Leave stitches? again, I have enough stitches in me to sew together a new
gi. They don't hurt or slow you down. I had one cut on my hand that bled
sooo bad I went into shock (quite scary when you know you are going down)
what did I do? I finished fixing the tank, treated myself for shock, then
walked to the feild hospital. I am no hero, and there was no great war
problem at the time. If I can do it to finish my job, a bad guy can do it
to finish me.

>$ Yes. You cannot break your nose. There are no bones in it. There is
>$ cartilage, nothing more.
>
>I'm not a Doctor but I did see a bad hit too the nose that had blood all
>over the place and after two years only a potion of his ability too smell
>is back.
>

Deviated septum. Simple surgery can fix it. I have the same thing. Why?
My wonderful senior kept nagging me about dropping my lead hand. So, in
a final act of help, he broke my nose in regular class one night. Thank
you Garcia.

>$ Pads are not good for distancing. They inhibit it, in my opinion.
>
>By pads I mean pads you hit not pads on your hands.Sorry.

OK. I hit the pads under people's eyes, lips, belt, etc.....

>
>$$ Mark, I know you don't get this stuff from Sugiyama's dojo. Do you
know
>$$ that they used to take all new shodans out the south side, then you
had
>to
>$$ attack, and beat the hell out the next person that walks around the
>$$ corner. They also used to go down to the docks and get in fights with
>the
>$$ shoremen just to test their skills. Last of all, when they let you
"in"
>$$ you will probably quit. I guarentee you, they will break all of your
>$$ ribs, your nose, and if your lucky, just knock you out. The chicago
>dojo
>$$ used to be a tough place to be, maybe you enlighted them and now they
>get
>$$ together after class for an advanced sewing session.

>The two things that are not
>allowed and have never been allowed are emotional matches where there is
>clearly anger being shown (this can lead to the person being removed from
>sparring altogether) and excess hitting or hitting without showing
control
>(which means you don't go to an advanced class for a couple of months).
On
>the other hand we allow the ladies to kick to the groin in freesparring
and
>hit with full contact to the stomache as well as a number of things.

Why is this? Because they can't hurt you no matter how much they try.
Same with wimpy boys that think they are dangerous because "they know
karate."

mark a goetsch

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

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$ The entire body can take a "good deal of punishment." Yes floating ribs
$ are easily broken, then again so is the pinky toe. If you're in karate
$ long enough, both will be broken many times. You learn to say to
yourself
$ during a good match, "Oh, hell, he broke my ?" Then you follow the FIDO
$ "F*** It & Drive On."

I've only had mine broken once. It kills your training for about a month
and you walk hunched over for a while. The more this happens though the
worse it gets and the longer it takes to healt.

$ Have you ever, ever, heard of a broken sternum???????????????????????????

$ I want to read the freaking article. That kind of crap does not happen.
$ If it ever has it was so rare even the ER doc. was shocked. I know, my
$ sister-in-law is an ER doc.

I'll try to get some MD's to explain this more. But the sternum sits at a
point where the hand hits the bone. As you know that means no protection of
that bone and most bones have a tendancy to break that way.

$ Leave stitches? again, I have enough stitches in me to sew together a
new
$ gi. They don't hurt or slow you down. I had one cut on my hand that
bled
$ sooo bad I went into shock (quite scary when you know you are going
down)
$ what did I do? I finished fixing the tank, treated myself for shock, then
$ walked to the feild hospital. I am no hero, and there was no great war
$ problem at the time. If I can do it to finish my job, a bad guy can do
it
$ to finish me.

I don't usually open up that easily, I do have some scars ( a knife
encounter, having my face smashed in concrete). But there are some that
have much bigger scars and missing teeth. You probably met a few of those
at Mr. Sugiyama's.

$ Why is this? Because they can't hurt you no matter how much they try.
$ Same with wimpy boys that think they are dangerous because "they know
$ karate."

I usually avoid wimpy boys (my interests just don't run that way). Karate
can deliver alot of force. There is no magic in this just the simple use of
body dynamics. There are a number of lousy free-sparrers that think that
causing injury or receiving injury is the height of Karate training. This
is just masculine crap. There is absolutely no reason that a person should
have this lack of control. As far as training goes I faced the lines of
people just like you did, you know the ones where you spar continously
against different opponents for up to a half hour with your back against
the post. During this time yes there were occasional hits but none were
that severe. This still goes on. The same people that you faced I'm sure
(at least if you were there in the last 20 yrs.). We have a lot more
control than the old days and there is more emphasis on building power
through relaxation and contraction than the old muscle days. In the las
year some things have changed, Mr. Sugiyama has gotten older, the Dojo as a
whole has gotten older, and there is far more emphasis on breathing and
technique than their used to be. As far a woman sparring I can assure you
getting hit in the groin with or without a cup will drop you, it might not
injure you but it hurts like hell. If you want to test this out though we
could probaly scare up a few that would want to see if they could test this
type of toughness. But then again I've run into the tough guy's before,
usually they dropped out of the Karate Schools like Mr. Sugiyama for
whatever reason. The ones that stay though have taken a good number of
lumps and have moved on to sharper technique and better control. The others
stay brown belts. Of course if you have any questions or the stories you
mentioned feel free to E-mail me nom...@netcom.com.

Mark Goetsch

mark a goetsch

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

to

$ And did you whack him? I often have students from a school down the
$ street come into my regular "fight night" for sparring. It seems they
$ don't do this because "they might kill someone". A hotshot 19 year old
$ came in and wanted to spar so like I always do I sparred him first to
$ make sure he had control and to protect my liability. He hit me in the
$ groin 5 times (this was when I trained with a cup and didn't watch it
$ quite as close) and finally after warning him on the 3rd, 4th and 5th
$ time I had had enough. I shmaked him with 2 consectuive reverse
$ punches and then a side kick that doubled him over for a couple of
$ minutes prior to his loosing his cookies in the bathroom. Wanna go
$ hard ... no problem as long as we understand each other. Control says
$ more about technique and what "you could have done" than all the words
$ in the world. Shmack 'em one time. Twice if necessarry. They will
$ understand rather quickly.

1st. I think that we all agree on one thing that self defense starts in the
Dojo. This means that if someone hits you because they are loosing control
(not by some accident) then it is in the best interests of the Dojo that
you make sure that they learn their lesson or they will do it over and
over. This also occurs with cheap shots, these have to be dealt with
immediately before the situation degenerates into a bad injury (I've seen
two situations of this).

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

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In article <32ff2b7c...@news.mindspring.com>, George...@msn.com
(George Winter) writes:

>The concept of consenting adults certainly applies to karate training.
>What pisses me off is a lot of time people go too hard without prior
>notification.

This is never spoken. I hit you, you hit me, this crap continues until we
are bleeding all over the place. When I visited Kubota's dojo here in LA
it did not happen this way. I went to Kubota, told him one of his new
students came from Dalke's dojo and I heard he was bad mouthing our dojo.
Then I asked if I could join his class one evening to work on teaching
good karate manners. He said sure. I came back, with my wife, a great
shodan. We began to spar. Me with Kubota's #1 fifth dan, my wife with
one of his puny nidans. Their job was to teach us not to come into his
dojo to "teach" others. Well the only lessons learned that night were,
(in the words of Al Bundy) "Lets Rock." Great hair pulling, nut
crunching, real fight, for me and my wife. Result, he would not let
either of us spar our "ex-student" drats! Think I am blowing snuff,
call'em. Hell, I beat all his people in his own world championships in
1995, except his fifth dan. But that was great, just like you read in the
books. Double overtime, nobody moves the whole time, then "BANG" end of
match. He won. :-(

WOW, did I get off the subject. But, hey, that was fun.

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

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In article <32ff2b7c...@news.mindspring.com>, George...@msn.com
(George Winter) writes:

>What annoys me is people think this level of unpleasant
>contact represents "real" fighting. I sparred with a Kyokushinkai guy
>who thought all other karate guys were fags in pajamas. He sparred
>"full power" all the time. Ha!
>
>
>

To some it is not unpleasent. At first it is, I remember dreading those
morning workouts for the world championships. Blood everywhere, my fear
is that it would be mine.

Most karate people are fags in pajamas. As far as Kyokushinkai, wild
bunch. I have nothing good to say about their karate, but boy are the
tough. I remember visiting there when I was in Japan. I told them I had
trained with Bobbie Low and asked if I could join a class. They said no,
not without a current membership card. I then encouraged them to call Mr.
Lowe and verify me. No way. They said the only way I could come in for
training was to challange them. That meant I had to go to a downstairs
room, beat the hell out of the two guards (yes they have door guards) then
they would tell their seniors that I needed a "lesson." This would
continue until I either beat Darth Vader himself, or was defeated by his
storm troopers. That's when I fell in love with the Kyokuhsin dojo. No
Pansies allowed!!!

(G.H. Bush)

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

to

Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com wrote while consuming beers and
thinking deep thoughts:

}Yes. You cannot break your nose. There are no bones in it. There
}is

}cartilage, nothing more. You could separate this from the bone, I
}imagine.
}I'mnot sure. I drove a snowmobile off of a cliff in Japan and busted
}my
}forehead wide open. Believe me, you *cannot* break your nose. You
}can,
}however, make it more ugly.

I believe you on an intelectual level however I have had my nose
broken 5 times. ( and a blowout fracture of the sinus to boot ). No
you cannot "break" cartilage but when that sucker slews across your
face you damn well know it's broke! Funny thing though, I have never
gotten the racoon eyes that is most often associated with a "broken
nose" <shrug> I ain't complainin' though ;) .

jiin

mark a goetsch

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Feb 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/11/97

to

$ I believe you on an intelectual level however I have had my nose
$ broken 5 times. ( and a blowout fracture of the sinus to boot ). No
$ you cannot "break" cartilage but when that sucker slews across your
$ face you damn well know it's broke! Funny thing though, I have never
$ gotten the racoon eyes that is most often associated with a "broken
$ nose" <shrug> I ain't complainin' though ;) .

This might have to do with where are hit. I had a nose break on the bump at
the top of the nose. To this day I occasionally feel it and where I never
had sinus problems I now do. But I had no bruising with it, we'll a little
bit but not so anyone would notice. But if I had gotten hit lower I
probably would have.

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97

to

In article <33022187...@news.mindspring.com>,
Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com writes:

>Hey, Allan... I think they are all worried that should they ever meet
you
>that you will *make* them do this with you. <snicker> You have to have
a
>special relationship with someone to turn up the heat like that on a
regular
>basis. You have to *know* that they won't lose it when they get winded,
and
>you have to *know* that they will surrender when they are beaten. If you
>cannot play nice, then don't play the game.
>
Good point. You are right. I would never do this with people I don't
know. If I do, it's not sparring, it's a fight.

>I am, unfortunately, not in your position. My club is not composed of
high
>ranking "freaks." At one time it was, and we had a ball. I have a dead
>tooth, I've broken every toe on both feet, I've got vertical calcium
deposits
>through many ribs, and I've got some perma-bruises on my shins and
forearms
>that never did seem to heal from those days. Loved it.
>
I am starting to feel close to you Rob ;-)

>Lester has popped someone for getting aggressive with him before.
Sparring
>with Smith and Dalke, I'm almost *sure* of it.
>
ALMOST!!!!!!

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97

to

In article <01bc17fe$55167b40$96cb23c7@default>, "mark a goetsch"
<nom...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>I've only had mine broken once. It kills your training for about a month
>and you walk hunched over for a while. The more this happens though the
>worse it gets and the longer it takes to healt.

Bulldoodie. It only takes longer as you get older. It has nothing to do
with the amount of time.

>$ Have you ever, ever, heard of a broken
sternum???????????????????????????
>
>$ I want to read the freaking article. That kind of crap does not
happen.
>$ If it ever has it was so rare even the ER doc. was shocked. I know, my
>$ sister-in-law is an ER doc.
>
>I'll try to get some MD's to explain this more. But the sternum sits at a
>point where the hand hits the bone. As you know that means no protection
of
>that bone and most bones have a tendancy to break that way.
>

>As far as training goes I faced the lines of
>people just like you did, you know the ones where you spar continously
>against different opponents for up to a half hour with your back against
>the post. During this time yes there were occasional hits but none were
>that severe. This still goes on. The same people that you faced I'm sure
>(at least if you were there in the last 20 yrs.). We have a lot more
>control than the old days and there is more emphasis on building power
>through relaxation and contraction than the old muscle days.

Bad guess. Again it had to with desire to hurt, not lack of F****
CONTROL.
Build power through relaxation? Yea. To a point. But, if you really
believe that tell Dr. Hatfeild (World powerlifting champion) that he
doesn't need to be strong, he just needs to relax. Boy, is he wasting his
time lifting all those weights.

>In the lasyear some things have changed, Mr. Sugiyama has gotten older,

the Dojo as a
>whole has gotten older, and there is far more emphasis on breathing and
>technique than their used to be.

Sure. Like Dalke says, the old masters never talk about relaxing,
breathing and "nice" karate, until they are so old they know their
students can beat the shit out of them.

>As far a woman sparring I can assure you
>getting hit in the groin with or without a cup will drop you, it might
not
>injure you but it hurts like hell.

Yeah it hurts. Big deal. I have been and have whacked the nut during
sparring before and you FIDO.

> The ones that stay though have taken a good number of
>lumps and have moved on to sharper technique and better control. The
others
>stay brown belts.

If you people don't get of the control thing I will lose
mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97

to

In article <01bc1804$268334c0$96cb23c7@default>, "mark a goetsch"
<nom...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>This might have to do with where are hit. I had a nose break on the bump
at
>the top of the nose. To this day I occasionally feel it and where I never
>had sinus problems I now do. But I had no bruising with it, we'll a
little
>bit but not so anyone would notice. But if I had gotten hit lower I
>probably would have.

When a friend or student thinks they broke their nose it's easy to
determine, just push on the area under the nose. If the jump out of their
gi, it's broke.

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97

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In article <01bc1806$bd8658a0$96cb23c7@default>, "mark a goetsch"
<nom...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>This depends upon what you mean by playing for keeps. But let's bring
back
>a memory I'm sure that you remember. Mr. Sugiyama used to take a Shinai
and
>go after the head of his students full speed to make them react faster.
The
>times that were missed hurt but you never blacked out, ofcourse a shinai
>with no snap and control will drop you like an eggplant . This was
thougth
>to be better than a the Katana or Boken since you could do this at full
>speed. Of course if you want the real reaction, really put it to the
metal
>you use a Boken or Katana, done as a real fight. If you miss you die. A
>bruise is one thing missing teeth or permanent damage is another. Of
course
>if you're hitting with full power and can only bruise the person we'll
work
>on the punch some more.

Mark, the first day you have a new student and teach him rising block, do
you flatten his face and make him permenatly ugly? Or, do you go slow and
let him get accustomed to the attack? Now, picture yourself as a 3rd or
4th dan teacher and you have a peer (not student) and you work on rising
block. Do you go to a different level and smack him, or punch slow like
he was an FNG (f****** new guy)? You take it up a notch. If I were to
visit Rob, and we sparred after class, as two Sandans that know each other
(never for the first time, until you know each others idiosynchronies you
can't go full speed or it will be a battle of egos and someone will not
just get hurt they will be badly injured) we would turn it up. The beauty
is, I would know Rob's weaknesses and he would know mine. Now I try to
exploit his (i.e. strengthen them) and he would exploit mine. By the end,
we would be much better karate people, and could fit a lot more beer in
our guts.

I hope this is clear. I do not advocate going balls-to-the-wall with
someone you don't know. People get really hurt. However, if Rob knows
and I know, that my face blocks suck. I will kick his ass into the next
dojo if he does not help me overcome this weakness. Of course, as a good
partner, I would definitly help him on his weaknesses. :-D

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97

to

In article <19970211132...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
allan...@aol.com writes:

>By then you are dreaming about hitting me back.

Oh yeah, I forgot how scared I was. :-($

George Winter

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97

to

Are you responding to your own post? If so try to avoid getting
yourself really riled & sinking into a flame war.

Lester Ingber

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Feb 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/12/97

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In article <33022187...@news.mindspring.com>,
<Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com> wrote:
:On 11 Feb 1997 05:59:11 GMT, allan...@aol.com wrote:
:
:
:>Once again, I have great control. If I break your body, I meant to do so.
:> If I don't, I chose not to do so. IS THIS CLEAR!!!!!!! PEOPLE GET
:>HURT SPARRING BECAUSE THEY WANT TO SUFFER FOR FU**ING UP. NOW, GET OFF
:>THE FREAKING BAD CONTROL GARBAGE. [excuse me, lost it for a second.]
:>
:>I am not talking about lack of control you morons. I am talking about two
:>consenting advanced karate freaks saying, "hey, lets play for keeps."
:>
:>SHEEEEESH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:
:Hey, Allan... I think they are all worried that should they ever meet you

:that you will *make* them do this with you. <snicker> You have to have a
:special relationship with someone to turn up the heat like that on a regular
:basis. You have to *know* that they won't lose it when they get winded, and
:you have to *know* that they will surrender when they are beaten. If you
:cannot play nice, then don't play the game.

:
:...
:
:C'mon guys. Everyone here has pounded someone at some point, right? I *know*
:Lester has popped someone for getting aggressive with him before. Sparring

:with Smith and Dalke, I'm almost *sure* of it.

Yes, of course I've "popped" people before, in and out of the dojo.
That has nothing to do with exercising and teaching proper control in
regular classes. I have several times stopped sparring when the head
instructor called an end to the sparring, only to be hit by some jerk
who lacked any discipline. In such a situtation, rather than join the
jerk and continue such sparring without discipline, I always have
preferred to wait for some other opportunities (plural) to make my
point.

It has been my interesting experience that schools that lack class
discipline (I don't mean just "oooosssss'ing" every time there's a
chance for a breather) -- and therefore have little disciplined control
when they spar -- most often also lack the discipline to regularly
train hard, train often, and just shut up and pay attention while
training!

There definitely is a common profile of many such schools. Too often
the black belts in such schools are too busy strutting around or
telling other people what to do, rather than seriously training
themselves. Their claim for respect stems from intimidation of lesser
ranks and people who are prone to be so intimidated, rather than from
their abilities per se or from any wisdom they might have to impart.
The top black belts in such schools most often have learned by being
able to imitate the movements of their instructors, but since they know
so little of what they are doing or what they are not doing, they are
of little use to the rest of the class.

In many of these schools, when I have been a guest instructor, the head
instructor has asked me not to train his class too hard, or he has
complained of my teaching techniques his students never learned, but
should have learned. That usually pissed me off, leaving me somewhat
frustrated, since I had enough respect for the head instructor as an
individual expert to even consider being a guest instructor, but I
could not respect his class or the way they were taught and trained.

I trust I've put in enough politically correct "many" and "most often"
comments to permit anyone to believe the above has nothing to do with
their own school. On the other hand, if you take offense at my
remarks, look within your own self and your own class for the reasons
for your frustration and anger.

Lester
--
/* RESEARCH ing...@ingber.com *
* INGBER ftp://ftp.ingber.com *
* LESTER http://www.ingber.com/ *
* Prof. Lester Ingber __ PO Box 857 __ McLean, VA 22101-0857 __ USA */

Deanna

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97

to

>the other hand we allow the ladies to kick to the groin in freesparring
and
>hit with full contact to the stomache as well as a number of things.

allan...@aol.com wrote in article ;

Why is this? Because they can't hurt you no matter how much they try.
Same with wimpy boys that think they are dangerous because "they know
karate."

Sorry, I have to interrupt here. I am a female martial artist. No, I do not
think I'm bad because I know karate! I have studied 8yrs, have a 3rd degree
black belt, and my instructor would never have promoted me if he didn't
give credibility to my techniques. I was never allowed to give a wimpy
technique and if he didn't feel it, then he continued attacking until a
good, effective technique was thrown. Please don't take away from someone's
hard training, based on their sex. I know this is always a huge discussion,
so let's just respect each other and our individual abilities.

allan...@aol.com wrote in article
<19970211055...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97

to

In article <5dsi2o$p...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, Lester Ingber <ing...@ingber.com> writes:

>Yes, of course I've "popped" people before, in and out of the dojo.
>That has nothing to do with exercising and teaching proper control in
>regular classes. I have several times stopped sparring when the head
>instructor called an end to the sparring, only to be hit by some jerk
>who lacked any discipline. In such a situtation, rather than join the
>jerk and continue such sparring without discipline, I always have
>preferred to wait for some other opportunities (plural) to make my
>point.

Elmar will attest to the fact that I am anything but gentle with all students. I have never injured anybody in normal training, or tournaments.

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97

to

In article <330a35c3...@news.mindspring.com>, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com writes:

>This is incorrect. Weightlifting *coupled with stretching* will only enhance
>any athletic activity that you wish you persue. Boxers, baseball pitchers,
>just about anyone looking for speed and power uses weights to get there. If
>a
>"weightlifter" is stiff, it is because their training regimen has been
>without
>stretching.
>
>

Good point. Anybody who thinks weight lifting will make their karate slow needs to read the book "Power" by Fred Hatfield. He points out that for power lifting, which requires speed-strength you must eliminate the eccentric movement as much as possible and exellerate as fast a possible through the concentric lift. Bodybuilders, on the other hand, tend to lift slowly, which according to scientific study slows you down. i.e. the muscles learn what you teach them. If you lift slow with constant tension, your muscles will learn to be slow and tense, if you lift fast and powerful, the same.

mark a goetsch

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97

to

$ This is incorrect. Weightlifting *coupled with stretching* will only
enhance
$ any athletic activity that you wish you persue. Boxers, baseball
pitchers,
$ just about anyone looking for speed and power uses weights to get there.
If a
$ "weightlifter" is stiff, it is because their training regimen has been
without
$ stretching.

There is a difference between doing weights and being a "weightlifter" in
the sense of what was described in the original article. Weightlifting in
the sense of building huge muscles or of pressing bigger and bigger weights
will build only one set of muscle fibers and it does stiffen the muscles.
Just regular stretching is in these cases a necessity to keep normal
movement in their arms. Cross training is a different regimen than this,
more time is spent on reps with smaller weights with the occasional push
for bigger weights. This is not just in Karate but in just about every
sport as well.

Mark

Elmar Schmeisser

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Feb 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/13/97

to

In message <19970209070...@ladder01.news.aol.com> -
allan...@aol.com writes:

#A broken nose cannot kill the sniffers. No way, no how. At worse you
#receive a deviated septum and need some minor surgery. I know, because my
#nose has been broke twice and I have a deviated septum that screws up my
#nose breathing.

As do I (deviated septum that is - also a karate injury), but you are not
quite correct here -- depending on how the nose is broken, if the accident
exerts a shear force into the cribiform plate, you _can_ lose your sense
of smell.

# Eye damage! Help me Elmar. No way again. You cannot
#lose your eyesight from a broken nose. You're thinking about a basal
#fracture which causes the racoon eye look. This does not endager your
#vision. Although other head strikes can.

Again it depends o the precise strike, and if an orbital floor fracture
produces a splinter of bone that penetrates the eyeball. While this in
itself may not automatically become a disaster, it can.

#...You get brain damage in boxing because
#the skull is rattled around. A good karate punch will split your skull
#open before it rattles you brain.

We are not necessarily talking about "good" punches....and a "good" punch
won't split the skull, it will hemmorhage the brain from countre-coup
injury.

Elmar T. Schmeisser oph...@pop.uky.edu Univ. of Kentucky, Lexington
http://www.uky.edu/~oph001/PERSONAL.HTM

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/14/97

to

On 12 Feb 1997 13:54:32 GMT, Lester Ingber wrote:

>Yes, of course I've "popped" people before, in and out of the dojo.
>That has nothing to do with exercising and teaching proper control in
>regular classes. I have several times stopped sparring when the head
>instructor called an end to the sparring, only to be hit by some jerk
>who lacked any discipline. In such a situtation, rather than join the
>jerk and continue such sparring without discipline, I always have
>preferred to wait for some other opportunities (plural) to make my
>point.

See, I respect that. I am however not that big a man.

>
>It has been my interesting experience that schools that lack class
>discipline (I don't mean just "oooosssss'ing" every time there's a
>chance for a breather) -- and therefore have little disciplined control
>when they spar -- most often also lack the discipline to regularly
>train hard, train often, and just shut up and pay attention while
>training!

I agree.

>
>There definitely is a common profile of many such schools. Too often
>the black belts in such schools are too busy strutting around or
>telling other people what to do, rather than seriously training
>themselves. Their claim for respect stems from intimidation of lesser
>ranks and people who are prone to be so intimidated, rather than from
>their abilities per se or from any wisdom they might have to impart.
>The top black belts in such schools most often have learned by being
>able to imitate the movements of their instructors, but since they know
>so little of what they are doing or what they are not doing, they are
>of little use to the rest of the class.

Actually the HQ club where I train has somewhat degenerated in this regard.

>I trust I've put in enough politically correct "many" and "most often"
>comments to permit anyone to believe the above has nothing to do with
>their own school. On the other hand, if you take offense at my
>remarks, look within your own self and your own class for the reasons
>for your frustration and anger.

I think that you are right on the money. No need for many and most often.
Anyone who takes offense is probably guilty of such behavior.

It's something that I learned from Rob. All students are important, and all
should feel welcome. It's our job.

dan

mark a goetsch

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Feb 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/14/97

to

> I know that if you are a sandan in a mere 8 years you aint shotokan.

It is possible under both ISKF and AAKF. They put the average time for
Shodan at 4-5 Years (note that this is an averager there is no official
time for lower grades). The min. Time from there to Nidan is 2 years (It
used to be 1 in the ISKF but that was changed I believe), and min. for
Sandan is 3 years after that (that is the AAKF has the ISKF upped there
time as well). Thats 8-10 years. There are alot of exceptions to this in
both organizations as well particularily those with previous MA background.
This is all based of course on 2-3 days of training a week, some train 4-5
days a week and some 6-7 days a week. Mr. Mikami incidently made Shodan in
a year, Nidan the next year and 3 years later was Sandan, that was a total
of 5 years. Of course he did do very well n the tournaments after that and
he had some previous Karate training (which wasn't recognized at Hosie or
the JKA).

mark a goetsch

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Feb 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/14/97

to

$ Well, at my age I might jump out of my gi, but I thought you guys were
$ in shape and full of all kinds of bravado!? I'm disappointed!

$ When I was in top shape, for example, during sparring Yaguchi bent my
$ nose, way over to the side. I considered it an accident (hell, my nose
$ is so big, he could have been threatened by it). I just stopped, went
$ over to the mirror, straightened it out, and continued sparring.

Who says anything about stopping, I had two more matches after that and
really didn't know until the next day when I had trouble breathing. But
then again if I had had to straigthen the nose maybe I would've done
differently. Then I would've at least noticed..........

Mark Goetsch

George Winter

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Feb 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/14/97

to

On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:08:45 GMT, shot...@mindspring.com (Daniel M.
Arner) wrote:

Re: Sigh, why can't we all just get along.

Deanna's first post reminded me of a those goats you stake out over a
tiger trap. People really need to lurk for a week or two before they
post here. But in "peoples" defense. Most other newsgroups organized
around hobby activity are warm, fuzzy, friendly places that welcome
newcomers.

Example: Alt.spoon-collecting

Hi my name is bob, I am from urugay and I collect forks, could
everyone email me with an extensive list of fork collections in my
area.

Chuck: HI BOB, Welcome aboard!

Louis: Bob, great to see you! Sorry I only collect spoons.

Denise: Hey Bob, Do you know Louis, he lives in Guatemala & also
collects old silver.

My point is that the casual newcomer to the newsgroup expects the
above & gets the below.

Dan: Bob, or Dung for Brains, You are a flaming Idiot. Here we collect
SPOONS. The forks are pointy & I can crush any fork between my massive
fingers. I often crush forks just for fun. If you collect forks you
must be mentally defficient, or a Homosexual. Go away and never
return,

I think the new Netiquette guide is Ideal, It says Hello, here are the
rules, stop screwing up (in a pretty normal fashion).

Re: No one can hang with me.
All you need to find for comparison is a 320 lb Athlete who is about
7'4" tall and has trained as long and hard as you have. Being big &
athletic makes it easy to be arrogant. I REALLY appreciate women in
the dojo, what I can do with size & power, they have to do with
technique. FACT: Most Woman cannot spar full-on with men. But most men
could not spar with the 300lb gorilla described above.

Re San Dan.
From Rob's commentary, most japanese would expect to be san-dan in 8
years. All you need to do to get San Dan in 8 years in america Is run
your own club. I am used to 5 years between dan promotions, but have
been informed that the official minimim is actually 1 year per dan
grade, Ie 2yr period between 2nd & third.

George
_____________________________________________________________________
George Winter
QSYS Ltd. gwi...@q-sys.com (work)
Information Systems Consulting George...@msn.com (home)

Jeremy A Schiffer

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Feb 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/14/97

to

In article <01bc1a4c$e41d66a0$87cb23c7@default>,

mark a goetsch <nom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I know that if you are a sandan in a mere 8 years you aint shotokan.
>
>It is possible under both ISKF and AAKF. They put the average time for
>Shodan at 4-5 Years (note that this is an averager there is no official
>time for lower grades). The min. Time from there to Nidan is 2 years (It
>used to be 1 in the ISKF but that was changed I believe), and min. for
>Sandan is 3 years after that (that is the AAKF has the ISKF upped there
>time as well). Thats 8-10 years.

While it's *possible* I don't know of anyone that could go to Nidan in
two years from getting Shodan. You'd pretty much have to dedicate every
waking hour to training and still be in the upper echelon of athletic
people. Darell Fusaro has been training for about fifteen years seriously
and is still only a Nidan. I would like to think that anyone who could
get promoted that quickly in AAKF (I know nothing of the ISKF) is a minor
diety. I have always been told that from Shodan to Nidan on average is
about five to six years and at least another seven to ten before getting
Sandan. After that, there are age restrictions (must be forty before
getting Godan...).

jeremy schiffer
eventualdan

Jeremy A Schiffer

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Feb 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/15/97

to

In article <3305693c...@nntp3.mindspring.com>,
Rob Redmond <big...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On 14 Feb 1997 15:49:44 GMT, schi...@gridley.acns.carleton.edu (Jeremy A

>Schiffer) wrote:
>
>>While it's *possible* I don't know of anyone that could go to Nidan in
>>two years from getting Shodan.
>

>I did.
>
>-Rob
>

Aren't you ISKF though? I was referring specifically to ITKF/AAKF, the
only organizations I have trained under at my three dojos (the three I
have trained in).

-jeremy schiffer
futuredan

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 08:34:48 GMT, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:39:41 GMT, Daniel M. Arner wrote:
>
>> All students are important, and all
>>should feel welcome. It's our job.
>

>Except for that German guy... <bang!>

Are we talking goat boy??? And let's not forget Tony.
Is this just a European thing or what?

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
ditto

dan
>

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 07:45:02 GMT, Rob Redmond wrote:

>On 14 Feb 1997 15:49:44 GMT, schi...@gridley.acns.carleton.edu (Jeremy A
>Schiffer) wrote:
>
>>While it's *possible* I don't know of anyone that could go to Nidan in
>>two years from getting Shodan.
>
>I did.
>
>-Rob

I have to inteject my two cents here. Rob cetainly deserved nidan, no doubt
about it. However, it was unheard of for anyone to do this in the region. If
Rob had not been the instructor of the Atlanta club, he would not have passed,
or even been allowed to test.

As George has stated, the way to higher rank is to instruct a club.
Especially if its strategically located geographically.

dan

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:16:21 GMT, George Winter wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Feb 1997 23:08:45 GMT, shot...@mindspring.com (Daniel M.
>Arner) wrote:
>

Sorry If I offended your sense of harmony. Unfortunately, this post had recma
written all over it. We don't want them here, and I will not encourage them
to stay.

>Re: No one can hang with me.
>All you need to find for comparison is a 320 lb Athlete who is about
>7'4" tall and has trained as long and hard as you have. Being big &
>athletic makes it easy to be arrogant. I REALLY appreciate women in
>the dojo, what I can do with size & power, they have to do with
>technique. FACT: Most Woman cannot spar full-on with men. But most men
>could not spar with the 300lb gorilla described above.

Well who cares??? This was flamebait for the little woman George.

>Re San Dan.
>From Rob's commentary, most japanese would expect to be san-dan in 8
>years. All you need to do to get San Dan in 8 years in america Is run
>your own club. I am used to 5 years between dan promotions, but have
>been informed that the official minimim is actually 1 year per dan
>grade, Ie 2yr period between 2nd & third.

Well in the region where I train, you could not get sandan in 8 years. 9 is
the minimum. 4 to shodan, 2 more (minimum) to nidan, 3 more (minimum) to
sandan. Minimum 9. And no one has done it in nine. Not the national champs,
not the club instructors, no one.

I was shodan over five years and have been nidan over four. And it took me
over six years to make shodan. And I don't "suck". Never did.

Seventeen years of training and a nidan. I bet my technique, speed, power,
and understanding are least twice hers. She ain't no sandan. Not where I
come from.

Bottom line, Ginger takes her in under 30 seconds.

dan

allan...@aol.com

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

In article <01bc1969$ead02020$caa620cc@default>, "mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com> writes:

>There is a difference between doing weights and being a "weightlifter" in
>the sense of what was described in the original article. Weightlifting in
>the sense of building huge muscles or of pressing bigger and bigger weights
>will build only one set of muscle fibers and it does stiffen the muscles.

Actually, Weightlifting is an Olympic event. The objective in weightlifting is to increase power. It is typical to workout twice a day, six days per week. On the seventh day perform other sports. The competitive exercises of snatch and clean with jerk require that the weight move from the floor to a fully locked out positioni overhead where it is held secure for two seconds. To accomplish this, most of the muscle groups must work at once. THis is technically sophisticated. Weightlifters train medium-resistance medium-repetitions for speed-strength, and heavy-resistance low-repetitions for power-strength.

Bodybuilding is the act of lifting weights that isolate individual muscle groups to develop size and shape. Strength and power are of no concern.

Powerlifting is a competitive sport divided by weight classes. The purpose of powerlifting is to show power-strength in the arms, back, and legs. Physical appearance, speed and flexibility are not essential to being successful at Powerlifting. The trainin method is to lift heavy weights with low repetitions.

The most relevant to karate training are first Weightlifting, then Powerlifting. Bodybuilding really has no place in karate training. However it will give the best beach body.

Just in case you were interested.

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:11:03 GMT, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com wrote:

>On Fri, 14 Feb 1997 14:16:21 GMT, George Winter wrote:
>
>

>>Example: Alt.spoon-collecting
>>Hi my name is bob, I am from urugay and I collect forks, could
>>everyone email me with an extensive list of fork collections in my
>>area.
>>Chuck: HI BOB, Welcome aboard!
>>Louis: Bob, great to see you! Sorry I only collect spoons.
>>Denise: Hey Bob, Do you know Louis, he lives in Guatemala & also
>>collects old silver.
>

>I agree that it would be nice if we were able to do this. We are not.
>Unfortunately, the differences between practitioners of various martial arts
>are so wide that spoons and forks really do not do justice to the problem.
>That is my problem with rec.m-a. The entire premise that "all martial-arts
>have something in common" is false, I think.
>
Let's not forget our friends in the cyber dojo.

Bunch of mcwannabes (tm), with a few notable exceptions.

>For example, Aiki-X has *nothing* to do with the aggressive art of karate.
>The only similarities that may exist are that two people partner up to train.
>Other than that, nothing else is common ground. What would be? Kata? Theirs
>are two-man kumite drills? Kumite? They never *hit* anyone. Kihon? Ours is
>structured to supply heavy, snapping, limb thrusts like a tank. Theirs is
>designed to throw, twist, and twirl opponents. They move with, we destroy.

They spar us, they lose. Seen it a bunch o times. They can philosophise,
however handling a 230 lb, fast guy with intent to harm is different than
anything that they are prepared to do.

This is my sanctuary from the "all martial arts are equal" crappola. Let's
leave it that way.

dan

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

$ Well in the region where I train, you could not get sandan in 8 years. 9
is
$ the minimum. 4 to shodan, 2 more (minimum) to nidan, 3 more (minimum) to
$ sandan. Minimum 9. And no one has done it in nine. Not the national
champs,
$ not the club instructors, no one.

I thought the ISKF requirements have changed. I do know of at least one
Shodan in the ISKF (he's probably much higher now) who received Shodan from
Mr. Mikami in six months (he came from TKD and was good enough from what I
remember) but this was in 1980 so things might have changed since then, the
requirements at that time were 1 yr. from shodan to nidan and 2 yrs from
nidan to sandan but that has obviously changed since then. The average
thought that the ISKF reports (in one of the Spotlight Articles) for Shodan
were 4-5 yrs. but then again maybe your region is different.

$ I was shodan over five years and have been nidan over four. And it took
me
$ over six years to make shodan. And I don't "suck". Never did.

$ Seventeen years of training and a nidan. I bet my technique, speed,
power,
$ and understanding are least twice hers. She ain't no sandan. Not where
I
$ come from.

The levels that are attained by different clubs tend to be club
independant, regional HQ's are usually treated harder than the other clubs
.. It is that way in the AAKF and from from what I remeber the ISKF. In ISKF
Master Camp they just look at the promotion card of your last promotion and
let you test, they don't question time (I know this for a fact since I had
a friend test thier), and they don't ask for Instructors permission, just
test, are you good enough or not.

To carry this a little further I think it is how the club want's to be
percieved. If your from a good club that has tough members it shows in the
long run anyhow regardess of rank. Shodan's for example represent the
basics of your club (and different clubs focus on different basics), the
Nidan's represent more your free-sparring ability of your club, and Sandan
represents the Teaching ability of your club. By this I mean this as a base
level for these skills. Above that there isn't much you can tell. If Deanna
is representing a club and she can't free-spar at all or teach correct
worth a damn we'll then that is easy to see the level of her club, on the
other hand if she just happens to be a great fighter and correct people
correctly with no problem we'll then maybe we have to retink this year
thing.

Mark Goetsch
Member JKA of Chicago, HQ for the Great Lakes Region of the ITKF.

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 08:03:32 GMT, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com wrote:

>On 16 Feb 1997 06:46:54 GMT, mark a goetsch wrote:
>
>ors, no one.
>>
>>I thought the ISKF requirements have changed.
>

>The ISKF doesn't operate like the AAKF. They are more a confederation of
>regions. The regions all have different requirements, different tests, and
>different standards. The South Atlantic region's practices are not comparable
>to those of East Coast or Central States.
>
>
Yep. we have a little saying down here, throw a rock in the east coast region,
hit a godan in the head.

dan

rto...@aol.com

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

In article <330986ec...@news.mindspring.com>, shot...@mindspring.com (Daniel M. Arner) writes:

>>Re San Dan.
>>From Rob's commentary, most japanese would expect to be san-dan in 8
>>years. All you need to do to get San Dan in 8 years in america Is run
>>your own club. I am used to 5 years between dan promotions, but have
>>been informed that the official minimim is actually 1 year per dan
>>grade, Ie 2yr period between 2nd & third.
>

>Well in the region where I train, you could not get sandan in 8 years. 9 is

>the minimum. 4 to shodan, 2 more (minimum) to nidan, 3 more (minimum) to

>sandan. Minimum 9. And no one has done it in nine. Not the national
>champs,

>not the club instructors, no one.
>
>

Hmmm. How's the following for group fodder? In the summer of 1992, I met a woman at the ISKF Master camp who was a 1st kyu. In November of 1996, I visited the ISKF HQ in Philadelphia, and her name was listed on the board under the Sandan column. She is not the head instructor of her club.

Ray

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/16/97

to

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 07:52:25 GMT, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:55:35 GMT, Daniel M. Arner wrote:
>
>
>>>Except for that German guy... <bang!>
>>
>>Are we talking goat boy??? And let's not forget Tony.
>>Is this just a European thing or what?
>

>Perhaps. I was referring to "Mr. Please don't touch my face. It's rude."
>HAHAHAHA!

i kinda figured that out before the post. interesting similarities though,
huh?

dan

Daniel M. Arner

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97

to

Again, I REPEAT, not in the region where I train. No way, no how.

dan

George Winter

unread,

Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97

to

On 16 Feb 1997 00:46:42 GMT, allan...@aol.com wrote:

>Actually, Weightlifting is an Olympic event. The objective in weightlifting is to increase power. It is typical to workout twice a day, six days per week. On the seventh day perform other sports. The competitive exercises of snatch and clean with jerk require that the weight move from the floor to a fully locked out positioni overhead where it is held secure for two seconds. To accomplish this, most of the muscle groups must work at once. THis is technically sophisticated. Weightlifters train medium-resistance medium-repetitions for speed-strength, and heavy-resistance low-repetitions for power-strength.
>
>Bodybuilding is the act of lifting weights that isolate individual muscle groups to develop size and shape. Strength and power are of no concern.
>
>Powerlifting is a competitive sport divided by weight classes. The purpose of powerlifting is to show power-strength in the arms, back, and legs. Physical appearance, speed and flexibility are not essential to being successful at Powerlifting. The trainin method is to lift heavy weights with low repetitions.
>
>The most relevant to karate training are first Weightlifting, then Powerlifting. Bodybuilding really has no place in karate training. However it will give the best beach body.
>
>Just in case you were interested.

Thanks, just the same points I wanted to make. Bodybuilding is
building muscles for show, weight training is something most atheletes
do. I think it goes without saying that most karateka do not train
like athletes.

George Winter

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97

to

On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 21:11:03 GMT, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com
wrote:

>

>I agree that it would be nice if we were able to do this.

I did not mean to imply that I am FOR this attitude. Screw those fork
people. Let them get their own group. But I am in favor of a mild
rebuke for first time posters, which I think is what is normally done.
I think any and all efforts should be taken to keep the group on track
& focused on Shotokan Karate.

>I created this group using Lester's suggested alt.martial-arts.karate.shotokan
>to facilitate creation of:
>
>alt.martial-arts.karate.goju-ryu
>alt.martial-arts.aikido
>alt.martial-arts.aikijutsu
>alt.martial-arts.kendo
>

Perhaps we should send a quick "How To" to all those "does anyone know
about wushukai karate..." posters, I am sure there must be FAQs on
creating new groups in the ALT. hierarchy. To my knowledge we have
seen few serious students of the other arts who are languishing for a
place to take their discussions.

George Winter

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97

to

ouch!

George Winter

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Feb 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/17/97

to

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997 04:18:13 GMT, shot...@mindspring.com (Daniel M.
Arner) wrote:
>>

>They spar us, they lose. Seen it a bunch o times. They can philosophise,
>however handling a 230 lb, fast guy with intent to harm is different than
>anything that they are prepared to do.

see below

>
>This is my sanctuary from the "all martial arts are equal" crappola. Let's
>leave it that way.
>

I totally agree. All martial arts cannot be equal, this is self
evident. Where it gets hard for me is how should we define success.
Are we supposed to be training to defeat Thugs, trained Shotokan
Karateka, just to achieve spiritual oneness with the cosmos, or all of
the above.

The fact that we can beat an Aikidoka one on one is just one item on
the balance sheet (and a pretty damn important one). What are the
goals of the art & do you meet them.

Suppose I say the best martial art will be measured by taking 10
random college freshman, training them for 3 years & then sending them
to Alabama with NY Yankee baseball hats & a T shirt that says "If you
can read this you probably aren't from around here". Would Shotokan
qualify? Maybe, probably not. I think we usually measure our success
by competing against each other in Shotokan only tournements. Where
pretty much everyone agrees, we are the best style present.

If we cannot teach women to be dangerous, our ART sucks in a critical
dimension, It means we rely almost entirely on muscle to get our
techniques to work. Despite our training we will lose if our opponent
is bigger & stronger. If this is true, lets clue in the students early
enough so they can quit & lean something useful elsewhere.

Fact of the matter, the women I see at the tournaments impress the
hell out of me. I love the clean way they do kata, their kihon is like
a textbook for perfect technique. But I outweigh them by about 100lbs
and outreach them by a foot or so. Ha Ha I win!

Shawn

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97

to

On Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:23:06 GMT, George...@msn.com (George Winter)
wrote:

>If we cannot teach women to be dangerous, our ART sucks in a critical
>dimension, It means we rely almost entirely on muscle to get our
>techniques to work. Despite our training we will lose if our opponent
>is bigger & stronger. If this is true, lets clue in the students early
>enough so they can quit & lean something useful elsewhere.
>
>Fact of the matter, the women I see at the tournaments impress the
>hell out of me. I love the clean way they do kata, their kihon is like
>a textbook for perfect technique. But I outweigh them by about 100lbs
>and outreach them by a foot or so. Ha Ha I win!
>

Which art do you consider *better* for teaching women to defend
themselves? Certainly not Aikido, if a 230lb reasonably fast guy
could take them down?

Any way you dice it, women are (usually) physically smaller and weaker
than most males. And most arts use the body as a weapon. Smaller
weapon smaller chance of hitting (usually again.) "You call that a
knife? THIS is a knife!" Get a gun, no strength required to pull
that little trigger, and effective as hell, if trained to use it.
Mace?

Shawn

George Winter

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Feb 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/19/97

to

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 04:56:45 GMT, sjef...@direct.ca (Shawn) wrote:

>Which art do you consider *better* for teaching women to defend
>themselves? Certainly not Aikido, if a 230lb reasonably fast guy
>could take them down?
>

Let me put it this way

Boxing is better for women than greco roman wresteling
Karate is better than boxing
Dirty tricks are better than reverse punches to the midsection
Weapons beat most dirty tricks.

Each art has an arsenal of technique. Pretty much the same arsenal in
fact, but we emphasise or specialize in different stuff. Being large &
strong I use what works for me, being human I teach what I am good at.
I am currently trying to revise my thinking & am practicing gedan
techniques more than jodan.

Shawn

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Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97

to

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 05:52:20 GMT, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com
wrote:

>Nope. Here's the problem with fast & easy weapons. The people who carry them
>do not know about the *inhale.* Anytime you are surprised, you will *inhale*
>most sharply, and you will be virtually frozen for more than a second. After
>a mace purchasing frenzy at an office I worked in for years, I challenged the
>buyers to use it on me. We'd play tag for a $1.00. I touch you without
>getting maced, I get $1. You can mace me all you want.

You still have to train with your weapon. You cannot expect to use a
weapon that you've never trained with. This *fear* thing is addressed
by any self-defense program that is worth it's salt, it can be
overcome with training. True, most people who carry these weapons do
so because they believe them 'easy' to use. I'm not saying these
weapons cannot be used without training. What I am saying is that
these weapons can be a great equalizer for a woman or small man
against a larger opponent if used correctly. Why do the police use
pepper spray?

>After about a week, I hid behind a post in the parking deck. I popped out and
>screamed. All three women dropped their mace and their purses, put their
>hands to their faces, and screamed, "EEEEEK!" I made $10.00 doing this before
>I was told to stop it by my boss. Every time, even when they knew it was
>coming, I was able to take the mace, the purse, and their keys without anyone
>even raising one of the things to point it at me.
>
And so they should have given you money, after all you were helping to
*train* them. ;)

Shawn

unread,

Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97

to

On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 05:52:20 GMT, Atlanta-K...@mindspring.com
wrote:

>Nope. Here's the problem with fast & easy weapons. The people who carry them
>do not know about the *inhale.* Anytime you are surprised, you will *inhale*
>most sharply, and you will be virtually frozen for more than a second. After
>a mace purchasing frenzy at an office I worked in for years, I challenged the
>buyers to use it on me. We'd play tag for a $1.00. I touch you without
>getting maced, I get $1. You can mace me all you want.

You still have to train with your weapon. You cannot expect to use a
weapon that you've never trained with. This *fear* thing is addressed
by any self-defense program that is worth it's salt, it can be
overcome with training. True, most people who carry these weapons do
so because they believe them 'easy' to use. I'm not saying these

weapons can be used without training. What I am saying is that these

weapons can be a great equalizer for a woman or small man against a
larger opponent if used correctly. Why do the police use pepper
spray?

>After about a week, I hid behind a post in the parking deck. I popped out and
>screamed. All three women dropped their mace and their purses, put their
>hands to their faces, and screamed, "EEEEEK!" I made $10.00 doing this before
>I was told to stop it by my boss. Every time, even when they knew it was
>coming, I was able to take the mace, the purse, and their keys without anyone
>even raising one of the things to point it at me.
>
And so they should have given you money, after all you were helping to
*train* them. ;)

Shawn

PS. I made a small mistake in the first message I sent of this,
hopefully your server will only get this one. <g>

Joel Young

unread,

Feb 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/22/97

to

In article <330d8716...@news.direct.ca>,

sjef...@direct.ca (Shawn) writes:
>
> knife? THIS is a knife!" Get a gun, no strength required to pull
> that little trigger, and effective as hell, if trained to use it.
> Mace?
>
> Shawn
>

Haven't you seen:

Smith and Wesson, Karate Weapon of Self-Defense
by Fumio Demura

Joel

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 23, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/23/97

to

$ You still have to train with your weapon. You cannot expect to use a
$ weapon that you've never trained with. This *fear* thing is addressed
$ by any self-defense program that is worth it's salt, it can be
$ overcome with training.

This is a favorite topic of mine since I don't think there is a
self-defense program that is worth anything. One of the benefit's of
training in a Martial Art where there is contact (such as Kumite in
Shotokan Karate) is that you are forced to face situations that you might
be uncomfortable with over and over. These situations are very similar in
spontanaety and idea that they build a comfort layer over time.

Self -defense programs are panacea's. Take the empowerment training method
of suiting up some guy in an outfit and letting a woman attack him. This
sounds good on the surface, bring out your animal instinct, kill the fear.
But the truth is without constant reinforcement it lasts for 1 day at most
and cost $75 to $125 to boot for one session!

The same goes with weapons. Outside of a person that practices every day
with a firearm, and at least a number of times in hostile or hostile
simulated environments, the normal person even with 100 hrs. of training is
going to hesitate and fail in an actual situation.

While Karate is not perfect in self-defense it can build a mind-set that is
better adapted to a real life problem.

Shawn

unread,

Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97

to

On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:02:31 GMT, big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond)
wrote:

>You cannot train away the surprise reaction. The sharp inhalation
>will occur in you, also, given the same situation. If I hide in your
>bathroom, and you get up late at night to take a whiz, and I jump out
>and scream at you, you'll inhale sharply and stand there like an
>idiot, I don't care how much training you have. If you are lucky,
>you'll fall over yourself backing away and get hurt.
>

Perhaps not, but you can become more accustomed to it, and recover
more quickly. Granted someone with a will to kill you and the
patience to allow no thought of this to occur in your mind will indeed
succeed, training or not. But if some guy jumps out of the bushes and
trys to grab or whatever, the surprise reaction could be overcome and
an effective attempt at escape/survival made.

Shawn

unread,

Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97

to

On 23 Feb 1997 07:26:02 GMT, "mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

> Self -defense programs are panacea's. Take the empowerment training method

>of suiting up some guy in an outfit and letting a woman attack him. This
>sounds good on the surface, bring out your animal instinct, kill the fear.
>But the truth is without constant reinforcement it lasts for 1 day at most
>and cost $75 to $125 to boot for one session!
>
>The same goes with weapons. Outside of a person that practices every day
>with a firearm, and at least a number of times in hostile or hostile
>simulated environments, the normal person even with 100 hrs. of training is
>going to hesitate and fail in an actual situation.

Training once at a seminar isn't really training. It's more like
trying it out to see if you would like to continue it. Even 100 hours
of training is nothing. This isn't what I meant by training, or a
*good* self-defense program. There do exist self-defense oriented
training programs that do not just teach one seminar over a long
weekend.

My sister who aspires to be a police officer takes one such program
that some of the other police and reserves take on a regular basis. I
can't vouch 100% for the effectiveness of this program, but I can say
that anyone who has trained in this "self-defense" would be better
prepared to face a bad situation than someone with an equal time in
karate.

Shawn

unread,

Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97

to

On Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:04:16 GMT, big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond)
wrote:

>> Why do the police use pepper
>>spray?
>
>They don't, not here. Part of their training consists of getting hit
>in the face with a blast of it and standing their suffering. They
>then come to realize the limited effect that it has as a weapon, and
>abandon it except when fired in cans from a cannon.
>

All the police use it here, and don't hesitate to use it pro-actively.
It's better than beating the snot outta someone who could possibly
cause a threat, and it allows the police to more effectively restrain
someone. It of course has it's limitations as a weapon, but
none-the-less offers the police some option other than to go "toe to
toe."

Shawn

Lester Ingber

unread,

Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97

to

In article <01bc215b$992c7760$d2a620cc@default>,

mark a goetsch <nom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

:
:
:$ You still have to train with your weapon. You cannot expect to use a

:$ weapon that you've never trained with. This *fear* thing is addressed
:$ by any self-defense program that is worth it's salt, it can be
:$ overcome with training.
:
:This is a favorite topic of mine since I don't think there is a
:self-defense program that is worth anything. One of the benefit's of
:training in a Martial Art where there is contact (such as Kumite in
:Shotokan Karate) is that you are forced to face situations that you might
:be uncomfortable with over and over. These situations are very similar in
:spontanaety and idea that they build a comfort layer over time.

:
: Self -defense programs are panacea's. Take the empowerment training method

:of suiting up some guy in an outfit and letting a woman attack him. This
:sounds good on the surface, bring out your animal instinct, kill the fear.
:But the truth is without constant reinforcement it lasts for 1 day at most
:and cost $75 to $125 to boot for one session!
:
:The same goes with weapons. Outside of a person that practices every day
:with a firearm, and at least a number of times in hostile or hostile
:simulated environments, the normal person even with 100 hrs. of training is
:going to hesitate and fail in an actual situation.

:
:While Karate is not perfect in self-defense it can build a mind-set that is

:better adapted to a real life problem.

I agree with most of what you say. However, given that a person will
not or can not study a martial art for the time it takes to get
something out it, still a short self-defense class can help many people
more than if they have no exposure at all to any such training.
In chapter IIB-14 of karate81_book.txt I give the outline of such
a short class that I believe has done more people more good than harm.
This class should be taught as an exercise in decision-making.
This helps to keep a person cool under impending danger, and
permits him or her to exert some control over the situation.
Afterwards, this also minimizes anxiety, guilt or shame,
independent of the outcome. Keep all decisions simple with a
few alternatives.
As I stressed in such classes, the first sentence above is most
important; the class is just an exercise. More training is required
for better control, etc.

Lester
--
/* RESEARCH ing...@ingber.com *
* INGBER ftp://ftp.ingber.com *
* LESTER http://www.ingber.com/ *
* Prof. Lester Ingber __ PO Box 857 __ McLean, VA 22101-0857 __ USA */

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97

to

I
$ can't vouch 100% for the effectiveness of this program, but I can say
$ that anyone who has trained in this "self-defense" would be better
$ prepared to face a bad situation than someone with an equal time in
$ karate.

The top Instructor for the various police departments in Iowa (Mr. Smaby)
is Shotokan. Cops as a rule tend to be undertrained, many in Chicago go to
Shotokan or Wing Chun since the normal training is far from adequate. It is
so bad in Florida that it is taught to pull the gun as quickly as possible
and at all costs avoid a hand to hand situation. There are various self
defense moves but most can't apply them in "real" situations. I watched
Cops a number of times and have lost count of the number of times that a
Cop has been hit and downed by a suspect, most of the time it is more than
one cop doing the same basic move over and over again. The mentality of
fighting takes constan reinforcement not a group of "tricks", understanding
of body connection, contraction and the other elements also contribute to
being a good fighter, rarely are these ever taught in "self-defense"
programs.

Mark

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97

to

$ I agree with most of what you say. However, given that a person will
$ not or can not study a martial art for the time it takes to get
$ something out it, still a short self-defense class can help many people
$ more than if they have no exposure at all to any such training.
$ In chapter IIB-14 of karate81_book.txt I give the outline of such
$ a short class that I believe has done more people more good than harm.
$ This class should be taught as an exercise in decision-making.
$ This helps to keep a person cool under impending danger, and
$ permits him or her to exert some control over the situation.
$ Afterwards, this also minimizes anxiety, guilt or shame,
$ independent of the outcome. Keep all decisions simple with a
$ few alternatives.
$ As I stressed in such classes, the first sentence above is most
$ important; the class is just an exercise. More training is required
$ for better control, etc.

This is an excellant point Lester, some of this I'll try to implement some
ideas based on this.

Mark

George Winter

unread,

Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97

to

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:26:47 GMT, big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond)
wrote:

>On 25 Feb 1997 22:19:44 GMT, "mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Two other points that I neglected. Strong is not the final part though.
>>Leaner fighters tend to do very we'll against the heavier large fighters.
>

...In tournement Kumite, he forgot to add.

Ghostwheel

unread,

Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97

to

Rob Redmond wrote:
>
> You have to be mean to be willing to invert someone's elbow and leave
> them for dead. Nice people cannot fight. They lose.

A-fucking-men. The easiest way to see if newbies have what it takes is
to invite them to watch a class. If they can make it throught the
explanation of the practal aspects of some of the more brutal waza, then
they'll stay. If not, I know they were never serious.

> Who is more likely to be the victim of crime? Who would know? I've
> been in three encounters at local train stations just in 1996.

(Welcome to Marta in Atlanta) <g>

> I don't let anyone keep coming after I have firmly said, "Stay away > from me."

Good rule. To quote Bruce Lee (bleh),

"When your opponent is inside your circle and
you cannot or will not retreat any farther you
must fight."

--
Ghostwheel - Kelly Rosato
------==Kajukenbo==------
Through This Fist Way, One Gains Long Life And Happiness

Lester Ingber

unread,

Feb 26, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/26/97

to

In article <3312afc6...@news.mindspring.com>,
Rob Redmond <big...@mindspring.com> wrote:
:On Sat, 22 Feb 1997 07:40:42 GMT, sjef...@direct.ca (Shawn) wrote:
:
:
:>You still have to train with your weapon. You cannot expect to use a
:>weapon that you've never trained with. This *fear* thing is addressed
:>by any self-defense program that is worth it's salt, it can be
:>overcome with training.
:
:No, it cannot. The reaction to surprise can only be overcome by being
:constantly in situation where you are surprised: the battlefield is
:the only place that comes to mind. Note that soldiers only last about
:6 months before fatigue of this situation sets in. Also note that the
:soldiers returning home from this situation are ill-prepared for daily
:life in suburbia.
:
:You cannot train away the surprise reaction. The sharp inhalation

:will occur in you, also, given the same situation. If I hide in your
:bathroom, and you get up late at night to take a whiz, and I jump out
:and scream at you, you'll inhale sharply and stand there like an
:idiot, I don't care how much training you have. If you are lucky,
:you'll fall over yourself backing away and get hurt.

I understand your logic, but I do not agree with its full conclusion.
That is, I think about seven years is a good round average time that
adults need to drastically modify their emotional and behavioral
reactions, in karate, therapy, etc. It can be done through hard and
regular (and proper -- if this has any meaning to most people?)
discipline.

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

$$ But there have been a number of fights that I have seen in
$$ the street where

$ Anecdotal evidence. Unreliable and proving of nothing.

Oh, sorry Rob I was reading you posts on your experiences and forgot I'm
not you, so excuse the leap of logic here.

Mark Goetsch

G.H. Bush

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

"mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote while consuming beers and
thinking deep thoughts:

}$$ Nice guys finish last in the city.
}
}$ This is the absolute truth. Anyone who doesn't believe it is welcome to
}take
}$ Gerald's tour of the mean streets around Atlanta. I will be the one
}standing
}$ back a few yards with my hand on the trigger of my 9 mm and covering you.

}I've never been to Atlanta, but I live in Chicago is that enough. In
}Chicago if you pull a 9 mm
<snippage>
}how mean you think you are mean nothing when you have
}10-12 youths 4-5 with Uzi's and who don't figure that they'll make it to 25
}anyhow so why not die today.

So OK do you agree or disagree? this was a nonsensical reply to a post. My
point was (since you obviously didn't get it ) if you go into the inner city
and are not prepared then you will die, karate be damned. I have been to Skokie
with a friend and it was very similar to Atlanta in that respect. Insult the
wrong person and you die. Be in the wrong place at the wrong time you die.

This was all Rob's point by the first post. Re-read the thread you may find it
interesting this time.

jiin

George Winter

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

On 27 Feb 1997 04:43:48 GMT, "mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>
>
>$$ But there have been a number of fights that I have seen in
>$$ the street where
>
>$ Anecdotal evidence. Unreliable and proving of nothing.
>
>Oh, sorry Rob I was reading you posts on your experiences and forgot I'm
>not you, so excuse the leap of logic here.
>

Good counter point. Everyone should take into account their own
experiences, it would be foolish not to. But personal anecdotal
evidence is really as good as none, tiny sample. This is especially
true if you are trying to prove a counter intuitive point. "Tough
Small guys are as good as big guys". Does the fact that I have seen
big guys beat up small guys factor in here.

(G.H. Bush)

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond) wrote while consuming beers and thinking
deep thoughts:

}On 26 Feb 1997 22:03:50 GMT, ds...@ibm.net wrote:

}>1. Are you saying that self-defense programs *do* teach "understanding
}>of body connection, contraction and the other elements (that) also

}>contribute to being a good fighter,"

I will state that the "self-defense" seminars/programs are mostly crap designed
to put money into the pockets of the people teaching them. Good intentions have
absolutly nothing to do with anything and you cannot learn any kind of body
connection/other elements in a few hours of instruction."Women's self defense"
is an oxymoron. Either it is self defense or it is not.

}What percentage of the people in white kung fu pajamas, from beginner
}onward, are really able to *fight*? Are they always the dan ranks, or
}is it spread across the spectrum depending upon their personalities.

I have never met a kung fu person who could fight. They can play and they can
spar, but fight ... never seen it. Out of all the aikido people I have ever met
and worked out with I have only seen one of these.

}You have to be mean to be willing to invert someone's elbow and leave

}them for dead. Nice people cannot fight. They lose. I don't mean
}rude people, I mean people that have, at their core, a willingness and
}ability to do great harm to others without having to have an internal
}discussion first.

Yup and most women just don't have that type of mean streak.

}Nice guys finish last in the city.

This is the absolute truth. Anyone who doesn't believe it is welcome to take

Gerald's tour of the mean streets around Atlanta. I will be the one standing

back a few yards with my hand on the trigger of my 9 mm and covering you.

jiin

Lester Ingber

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

In article <5f2ucd$m...@camel0.mindspring.com>,
(G.H. Bush) <ji...@atl.mindspring.com> wrote:
:
:Yup and most women just don't have that type of mean streak.

You are truly blessed, having survived into your adulthood still
believing this fairy tale!

I really cannot fathom the basis of this thread that women are inferior
in mind, body, and emotional disposition, re karate training? Yes, _on
average they are lighter weight. On the other hand, _on average_ most
men do not have what it takes to stick it through to get to a green
belt level?

So, are talking about average people in self-defense situations, or are
we talking about average trained people in self-defense situations? I
say that a brown-belt woman, on average, has a better chance in a
self-defense situation than a white-belt man, on average. Agreed, I
have no data to support this, but it seems reasonable to me.

Now I still have to back up to the main context of this thread, re a
self-defense course of say eight classes in one month. Agreed, this
hardly produces a _trained_ person. However, I maintain that such
exposure will be more of an asset than a liability in a self-defense
situation, e.g., for reasons implied in my previous posting -- that at
least that person has been some kind of decision-making training to try
to fall back upon in a self-defense situation.

In this context, you are nuts if you think that all military fighters
and their officers are trained regularly and thoroughly like seals or
even green berets. Most have been _schooled_ in similar
decision-making contexts (which they may _think_ is the best training
on Earth or Mars). This training is pretty flimsy compared to rigorous
martial arts training, but nevertheless, on average, they seem to do
pretty well in battle -- they have had just enough of a clue of what to
try to do to have the (often false, or at least over-inflated)
confidence to barely keep their wits about them in battle to apply a
little of what they have learned.

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

$ So OK do you agree or disagree? this was a nonsensical reply to a post.
My
$ point was (since you obviously didn't get it ) if you go into the inner
city
$ and are not prepared then you will die, karate be damned. I have been to
Skokie
$ with a friend and it was very similar to Atlanta in that respect. Insult
the
$ wrong person and you die. Be in the wrong place at the wrong time you
die.

$ This was all Rob's point by the first post. Re-read the thread you may
find it
$ interesting this time.

Skokie, ohh please. Skokie is considered a safe haven. I agree with the "be
in the wrong place at the wrong time you die" point. My addition to this is
that no matter how tough you are you can lose. That to have the ability or
the nastiness to break someones arm is not as important in many cases as
the ability to use common sense and take the ego hit and walk away (or run
away). If this is what Rob was getting at I agree, but it seemed he was
more talking about taking the situation in hand. Am I mistaken here??

Mark

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

$$ Nice guys finish last in the city.

$ This is the absolute truth. Anyone who doesn't believe it is welcome to
take
$ Gerald's tour of the mean streets around Atlanta. I will be the one
standing

$ back a few yards with my hand on the trigger of my 9 mm and covering you.

I've never been to Atlanta, but I live in Chicago is that enough. In

Chicago if you pull a 9 mm in a project you will be shot to bits before you
can aim it. The gangs are heavily armed and don't care if they live or die.
Aurora, Ill. for example is in the top 5 for worst areas in the US for
murders. Not too mention that the muggers near these projects usually
travel in groups, sometimes carry automatic weapons and will not hesitate
to use it. The rule is in the streets, if you survive you've beaten the
odds. That means if you can run, run. If you can't then you yell, if you
have to fight do so. Life and death are all that matters, pride, the number
of guns you carry, how mean you think you are mean nothing when you have

10-12 youths 4-5 with Uzi's and who don't figure that they'll make it to 25
anyhow so why not die today.

Mark Goetsch

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

$ Who is more likely to be the victim of crime? Who would know? I've
$ been in three encounters at local train stations just in 1996. One
$ man approached me asking for money. I punched him in the chest when
$ he got close after I warned him to beat it. The other two I just
$ pushed down and yelled at. I don't let anyone keep coming after I
$ have firmly said, "Stay away from me."

This would happen about 30 times before you even got to the train in
Chicago or New York. These guys are nothing, they don't want to fight, one
fake punch and they say "hey, man..you scared or something". I've had alot
of people try to get too close too me in 1996, and just letting them know
in a firm voice without saying "Stay away from me" (if you say this they
already know that your unfamiliar in dealing with these situations : I
usually say "Hey, my man, you don't have to crowd me" or something like
that) I've had no one successfully get close, no need to fight them, and
didn't even notice them any further. Aggressive attitudes will bring about
aggresive behavior, most times unnecessary. If something is going to
escalate it either will or it won't from the beginning of the encounter
unless you give them an obvious opening or anger them. You can die in any
encounter no matter what you know, how mean you are, or how we'll armed so
why roll the dice constantly.

$ Do you reach in your pocket to get change for a bum? Surprise! He
$ just wanted you to look down at the change while he whacked you across
$ the head.

$ Do you give people the time on city streets? Same trick, sometimes.
$ Do you stop to give cigarettes?

If they get that close they have already identified you as a person to go
after. They might ask a person for money but they only come close if you
give them a reason (like you look naive or confused). You can do all the
above things without exposing yourself, it's just common sense.

Mark Goetsch

G.H. Bush

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

"mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote just after inhaling for the first
time:

}This would happen about 30 times before you even got to the train in
}Chicago or New York. These guys are nothing, they don't want to fight,

}or how we'll armed so
}why roll the dice constantly.
}

}If they get that close they have already identified you as a person to go

}after. They might ask a person for money but they only come close if you
}give them a reason (like you look naive or confused). You can do all the
}above things without exposing yourself, it's just common sense.

Hey Mark, What kind of flowers do you like? I need to know so I can send some
when you actually say shit like this to an actual person. You may live in
Chicago but I doubt you have any experiance in real life dealings 'downtown'.
Really this is an honest question... What kind of flowers do you like? I want to
send the family my condolences.

jiin

mark a goetsch

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

$ Good counter point. Everyone should take into account their own
$ experiences, it would be foolish not to. But personal anecdotal
$ evidence is really as good as none, tiny sample. This is especially
$ true if you are trying to prove a counter intuitive point. "Tough
$ Small guys are as good as big guys". Does the fact that I have seen
$ big guys beat up small guys factor in here.

In a fight anything can happen and often does. Size and strength most
definately play a factor but so does speed, skill and guile.

Since most can relate to football, it is often the case that a running back
who is considered too small can and does make a big impact on the people
trying to stop him. Walter Payton at 5'11"-6'0 and 200 lbs. could run right
through a 300+ lb. man and sometimes multiple ones. Or Barry Sanders makes
even some of the quickest big men miss. In a brute contest of strength they
would lose but they used their skill and tenacity to offset the odds. Now
it is also true that the average running back is pretty large and that
running backs like the above are few and far between, but they do exist.

The point is that it is difficult for a smaller man to fight a bigger man,
that part is very true. But big men are far from unbeatable, but a smaller
man must be either faster, more skilled or more foxy.

Mark

mark a goetsch

unread,

Rob you were wrong. This is the stupidest thing Mark has ever said ( in this
newsgroup, I don't even want to think about outside of it ).

From what source do you derive this "FACT"? <beginning to laugh over the picture
of Mark trying to figure out how to evade this one>

jiin

G.H. Bush

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

Lester Ingber <ing...@ingber.com> wrote just after inhaling for the first time:

}In article <5f2ucd$m...@camel0.mindspring.com>,
}(G.H. Bush) <ji...@atl.mindspring.com> wrote:
}:
}:Yup and most women just don't have that type of mean streak.

}You are truly blessed, having survived into your adulthood still
}believing this fairy tale!

Ahhh, Lester I am not so foolish to think that women are not 'nastier' than men.
They can be very very nasty but they usually do not have what it takes
(mentally) to inflict major damage on an attacker. They are like cats in this
reguard, sneaky and aloof and just when you think you slid one over BAM! they
got ya.

}So, are talking about average people in self-defense situations, or are
}we talking about average trained people in self-defense situations? I
}say that a brown-belt woman, on average, has a better chance in a
}self-defense situation than a white-belt man, on average. Agreed, I
}have no data to support this, but it seems reasonable to me.

We were discussing women taking short self defense seminars/programs and through
these classes being able to actually use the techniques they were taught. Most
of them will take one or two three hour classes and walk away thinking they have
learned the techniques and it is like book knowledge ... they can pull it out
anytime they need it in the future and use it. It doesn't work that way and we
both know it.

}In this context, you are nuts if you think that all military fighters
}and their officers are trained regularly and thoroughly like seals or
}even green berets. Most have been _schooled_ in similar
}decision-making contexts (which they may _think_ is the best training
}on Earth or Mars). This training is pretty flimsy compared to rigorous
}martial arts training, but nevertheless, on average, they seem to do
}pretty well in battle -- they have had just enough of a clue of what to
}try to do to have the (often false, or at least over-inflated)
}confidence to barely keep their wits about them in battle to apply a
}little of what they have learned.

Ha. That is what I say to most of the 'military' fighters I have seen. Speaking
from experience here, the Air Force offers more training on how to properly wear
a uniform than self defense or combat training. Sh*t they only live fire 30
rounds or so once a year for certification. Ditto the Navy. The military police
for these services train 8 hours a year to get certified in 'hand to hand
combat'. The army and Marines do alot more but they spend more time polishing
boots and belt buckles than fighting. Only the paratroopers and the elite groups
are afforded real training with any real time involved.

jiin

G.H. Bush

unread,

Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97

to

"mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote just after inhaling for the first
time:

}I agree with most of what you said, but the only problem that I have with
}such a short course is that it can give someone a false sense of
}confidance. Maybe if instructed well that may not happen, but in many
}cases, it seems, the instruction given leans in the direction of that we
}have solved your self-defense problem.

Sh*t Mark you waffle worse than 'Slick Willie'. Make up your mind.

jiin

Dr. Rodgers

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97

to

G.H. Bush <ji...@atl.mindspring.com> wrote in article
<5f4uin$f...@camel0.mindspring.com>...

> "mark a goetsch" <nom...@ix.netcom.com> wrote just after inhaling for
the first
> time:
>

> } Point of fact, most people that get murdered in
> }any city were born there and lived there all their life.
>
> Rob you were wrong. This is the stupidest thing Mark has ever said ( in
this
> newsgroup, I don't even want to think about outside of it ).

his statment makes sense. do you dispute that most accidents ocur in the
home?
stastitics prove that we'd all be safer living elsewhere.

I personaly find Marks posts insightful and worhty of our praise, not the
constant ridicule he seems to draw in here.

and its spelled G-I-N

Shawn

unread,

Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97

to

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:09:57 GMT, big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond)
wrote:

>You have to be mean to be willing to invert someone's elbow and leave

>them for dead. Nice people cannot fight. They lose. I don't mean
>rude people, I mean people that have, at their core, a willingness and
>ability to do great harm to others without having to have an internal
>discussion first.

These are the guys I stay away from if at all possible, since I'm
definitely not one of them. I've noticed in a few fights (I've seen)
that the guy who tends towards a little more meanness seems to walk
away with less pain than the other guy. Usually because he's willing
to curb stomp the other guy/gal into oblivion given the chance.

>Do you reach in your pocket to get change for a bum? Surprise! He

>just wanted you to look down at the change while he whacked you across

>the head.

>
>Do you give people the time on city streets? Same trick, sometimes.

>Do you stop to give cigarettes?

Yea some guy dress in a business suit (inherently evil) asked me the
time yesterday so I front kicked him in the groin and elbowed him in
the head, and then told him to buy a watch! I bet the guy just wanted
to 'roll me' Heheh, better safe than sorry I guess?

Shawn

G.H. Bush

unread,

Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97

to

"Dr. Rodgers" <a31h...@hotmail.com> wrote just after inhaling for the first
time:

}his statment makes sense. do you dispute that most accidents ocur in the
}home?
}stastitics prove that we'd all be safer living elsewhere.

Does it make sense? To assume that someone had done the statisical research on
this particular statistic and just because you assumed it or believed it you
would state it as fact? Where is elsewhere?

}I personaly find Marks posts insightful and worhty of our praise, not the
}constant ridicule he seems to draw in here.

OK who is posting this troll? Rob, Dan ... ?

}and its spelled G-I-N

I lost the affinity for GIN when I endured a three day hangover after a party in
the USAF. You must be from Alabama.

When does an Alabama girl lose her virginity? When she is no longer able to out
run her brothers.

Two Alabama guys were walking throught the woods and one looked down and said "
those are deer tracks". the other said " No they aren't they are moose tracks".
They were still arguing when the train hit'em.

jiin

mark a goetsch

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97

to

$$ Hey Jiin, I live downtown and have for a long time. The "real life
$$ dealings" happen daily. I was also in New York for a short period,
that's
$$ even worse.

$ Not impressed. I can drop names too but it serves no purpose.

Dropping names, get real, you asked and I answered. Period.

$ Rob's point was not to allow a situation to develop in the first place.
Sen no
$ Sen Mark. I agree with him, don't wait to be attacked. If they breach the
circle
$ cut'em down with impunity.

If some one breaches your circle with the intent to do harm, that's one
thing, and in fact usually you can pick that up way before they even get
that far. Breaching your circle without showing that intent means that that
person is either a begger or a very incompetant mugger. It restricts access
to his weapons, and gives you the ability to hit him first. A good mugger
or thug has been in enough fights (far more than karate sparring matches,
even if you sparred everyday). So even if he doesn't have technique (or she
as that is becomong more common than before) he at least has some common
sense, that way or he would be dead by now. This doesn't mean that you let
them get close to you, but rather just move away, they will in most cases
not follow.

Another point, if you are in a situation where you must deal with someone
that is a street person, be carefull when hitting towards the mouth. As
could be guessed if you get a bite wound, their is always the chance that
that person carries a disease.

Mark Goetsch

mark a goetsch

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97

to

$ From what source do you derive this "FACT"? <beginning to laugh over the
picture
$ of Mark trying to figure out how to evade this one>

It never seems to amaze me how some people live life without being aware of
such things as Newspapers or T.V.. I know it's all hearsay. All the reports
from New York, Chicago, LA and even Atlanta that have appeared in Chicago
Tribune, 60 min., New York Times etc. on Gang violence, Black on Black
Crime, the Dangers of Inner City Violence, ATM murders, Rapes in the city.
The projects are some of the biggest killers. Or the special done on
Aurora, Ill. one of the murder capitals of the US where neighbors when
asked can't even remember the number of their friends that were caught and
killed in drive by shootings. Of course just to be fair, I haven't checked
the records, maybe the majority of these people were transplant's from
other place or tourist's.....ya, that's it all the victims were tourists.

Are you out to lunch ??????????????????????

Mark Goetsch

mark a goetsch

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97

to

$ I lost the affinity for GIN when I endured a three day hangover after a
party in
$ the USAF. You must be from Alabama.

This ain't true. They don't like them there flyboys in Alabama. Seems they
can' t hold their Jiin.

Mark Goetsch

mark a goetsch

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97

to

$ Sh*t Mark you waffle worse than 'Slick Willie'. Make up your mind.

Not a waffle. But Lester was right in his point that it is better than
nothing as long as the person realizes the limitations of what she/he has
learned. That does not make it the best course imho. The reactions are not
built up enough and their is a false sense of security that can be given to
an individual. But that might be far better than a person that freezes and
doesn't even scream when they are attacked.

Mark Goetsch

Lester Ingber

unread,

Mar 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/1/97

to

In article <331a8edb...@news.direct.ca>, Shawn <sjef...@direct.ca> wrote:
:On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 23:09:57 GMT, big...@mindspring.com (Rob Redmond)
:wrote:
:
:These are the guys I stay away from if at all possible, since I'm

:definitely not one of them. I've noticed in a few fights (I've seen)
:that the guy who tends towards a little more meanness seems to walk
:away with less pain than the other guy. Usually because he's willing
:to curb stomp the other guy/gal into oblivion given the chance.
:
:>Do you reach in your pocket to get change for a bum? Surprise! He
:>just wanted you to look down at the change while he whacked you across
:>the head.
:>
:>Do you give people the time on city streets? Same trick, sometimes.
:>Do you stop to give cigarettes?
:
:Yea some guy dress in a business suit (inherently evil) asked me the
:time yesterday so I front kicked him in the groin and elbowed him in
:the head, and then told him to buy a watch! I bet the guy just wanted
:to 'roll me' Heheh, better safe than sorry I guess?

I agree with Shawn. Yes, it is important to be aware/avoid dangerous
situations, but this has to be placed in the context of just how you
want to live your life, as long or short as it may be.

My attitude in general is "fool me once, shame on you; shame me twice,
shame on me [+ completed attacks on you in any self-defense situation]."

Trevor MacFarlane

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Mar 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/2/97

to

83...@news.direct.ca> <01bc215b$992c7760$d2a620cc@default>
<331311f...@news.direct.ca>
<01bc22a9$fd341e80$a4a620cc@default>
<331c1ff1...@news.mindspring.com>
<5f2c06$1d4m$1...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
<3314c0b6...@news.mindspring.com> <5f2ucd$

m...@camel0.mindspring.com>
Distribution:

> I have never met a kung fu person who could fight. They can play and they can
> spar, but fight ... never seen it. Out of all the aikido people I have ever met
> and worked out with I have only seen one of these.

This must be the blind Karate ego at work here. Pity.

> This is the absolute truth. Anyone who doesn't believe it is welcome to take

> Gerald's tour of the mean streets around Atlanta. I will be the one standing

> back a few yards with my hand on the trigger of my 9 mm and covering you.

A country such as this, and americans are still proud of it. Pity.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Trevor MacFarlane
Carleton University
"God, thy will is hard. But you...hold every card."
"I will drink your cup of poison. Nail me to your cross and break me."
"Leave me, beat me, kill me, take me....now. Before I change my mind."
Email address: tmac...@chat.carleton.ca
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Moine97

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97

to

mark a goetsch wrote:

> In a fight anything can happen and often does. Size and strength most
> definately play a factor but so does speed, skill and guile.

I agree with you, but I'd like to add to your point:

I think it's dangerous to talk about "a fight" in a general way. Every
fight is different. As a 310-315 lbs karateka, I know that I prefer by
far "grab & hit" situations than pure "get-in / get-out" movement-based
sparring. I am not popular in tournaments, since I mostly do
"anti-sparring"... Basically, I get in, evade an attack, grab-sweep,
and then follow to the ground. "Good" competitors, since they are most
of the time tall and pretty thin fast guys, can do nothing once they are
in a "grappling" situation with me. If they don't let me in, since I
never go back, they often get out of the square. I put them in
double-bind situations.

Note that this double-bind situation is based on the environment
settings more than on physical characteristics... : From there, the
"know yourself, know your ennemy, and know the fighting ground" speech
takes it's full importance. It's not only the physical skill that
primes, but the strategy you develop in order to impose your qualities
without exposing your weak points in a given context.

A woman can develop such a strategy just as well as a man. If she's a
lot smaller and weaker than her opponent, maybe she'll have to use more
subtle double-binds (charm, or anything good in a given situation), or
different techniques, targets, approaches... She probably will have to
be a lot more intelligent than me in an equivalent situation, but who
knows ? Maybe her chances are just as good as mine in the long run. A
fight is not necessarely over after the agressor is on his back: You
beat the shit out of the bum, and he comes back with a gun... every
doorman knows a story that looks much like this one.

Besides... why keep karate within physical, technical boundaries ? I
consider a part of my karate to deal with stress, to keep my head on the
"logged in" mode whatever the situation. Most women I know can do this
better than a lot of men. Could we say it's because they are used to be
placed in physical inferiority situations in the everyday life more
often than men ? I don't know. But I sure know that most tough guys
just lose the map and hit stupidly (and eventually get injured / killed)
when put in a threatening situation, while most women will be able to
keep thinking a little longer. Of course, there are exceptions to this.

> But big men are far from unbeatable

That is true. But at equal skill and strategy, usually the bigger guy
wins. We cannot say size/strenght is more important or speed/skill
makes the difference. The point is that it just DEPENDS. One aspect may
be more important one time, and useless in another situation. To me,
the main factor still is brains and, as Lester says, "emotional
stability". With these, you can build a strategy fast, and get out of
it winner on the long run. And this is true for self-defense, life,
career, love... (who the f¤¼# am I to teach you this ??? I don't know,
so please don't ask! :-) ...

Peace rules!

--
Moine97
Webmestre du site «Penseurs» :
Http://www3.sympatico.ca/tank/penseur.htm

Shawn Kinney

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97

to

In article <5fg7bf$v...@camel2.mindspring.com>,
ji...@atl.mindspring.com (G.H. Bush ) wrote:

[bar stuff snipped]

It's nice to see that a few of you managed to come here and live up to
expectations. You were, no doubt, fine ambassadors and a credits to your
country.

>You are already communicating with American English. Problem? Naa, you
handled
>that one easily.

I prefer American for communication with non-English speakers. Once I learn
"Ebonics" I'll be multilingual:)