Jason goes political
Jason
myself included. We are magickians,scholars,philosophers,
and students. We fall weak to our fears. We have dreams
of proving either our immortality or proving our mortality.
How does this serve us as a people, state,country,continent,
or planet if we do not come together for a common goal? Right
now in this forum, as I see it, there are two distinct groups of
occultists: Those who have faith in God and those who believe
themselves as God. What a pity. In all of your occult work how
many continuous moments have you actually knew you transcended
the elements? Not in Astral. Not in the Courtyard of Anti-Divine
Light.We have let the element of society push us into a forum of
enslavement to fight among ourselves on matters of who is right;
while unholy alliances are being formed on every continent on our
planet. The newest is the supposed alliance formed by Hussein and
bin Ladden. Despite what, Sznog has posted for us from a non-
English country regarding bin Laden's assasination! We need to come
together,we need to form rallys,we need to be willing to go to jail for a
cause.We need to be willing to give our blood back to God! This is a
war like no other in human history. Heros of eld were not Knighted by
the Royals for thier penmenship. It takes action.I see a bunch of people
bragging about powers of occult observation that they don't have. I see
men in High Offices in Occult Organizations who smell of fear. I see
corruption far and wide. We need every Mystery School of every
tradtion to work for God and to save the species of our race: The
Human Race! Where to begin is the ultimate question?Do we go behind
our Superiors backs and revolt against their ignorance, or do we rally in
support of our living Elders to fight the Vital fight of youth?. It would
take four hours to e-mail every O.T.O affiliation on this planet. Will they
receive the message or understand the meaning and import of our crisis when
spoken from on high once recieved? I am a magickal leader. Who wants
to get off the ground and walk with me?
Blue Rajah
"Jason" <nex...@gulftel.com> wrote in message
news:9racv...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> We have played words games unitl all of us feel shame,
> myself included. We are magickians,scholars,philosophers,
> and students. We fall weak to our fears. We have dreams
> of proving either our immortality or proving our mortality.
What's with this "we" shit? Speak for yourself.
I'm not dreaming of proving anything.
> Right now in this forum, as I see it, there are two distinct groups of
> occultists: Those who have faith in God and those who believe
> themselves as God. What a pity.
Yes, what a pity that you allow yourself to see the people here only as
part of one group or another. You should break out of that rut.
> We need to come
> together,we need to form rallys,we need to be willing to go to
> jail for a cause.
No, I don't.
> I am a magickal leader.
Stop that. It's excess baggage.
Jason
"Blue Rajah"
Just like a coward. Wait for millions to die for a reason
that goverments gave their soldiers was an act of justice
to fight for,God. Isn't this exactly what the Taliban are doing.?
Who the fuck are you fighting for,Tom? To save your blood,
coward.
Jason
"Blue Rajah"
I think at this point it is clear to all which master you serve!
I'm done with you. Your magickal opinion has absolutely
no life,Tom.You are a dead man walking. No purpose,
nothing. Slit your wrists and save God the trouble. Leave
me alone,asshole. I don't need you or your dead letter
wisdom.
Diox
Jason a écrit dans le message <9racv...@enews4.newsguy.com>...
> We have played words games unitl all of us feel shame,
>myself included. We are magickians,scholars,philosophers,
>and students. We fall weak to our fears. We have dreams
>of proving either our immortality or proving our mortality.
>How does this serve us as a people, state,country,continent,
>or planet if we do not come together for a common goal? Right
>now in this forum, as I see it, there are two distinct groups of
>occultists: Those who have faith in God and those who believe
>themselves as God.
jason, there is a third group : kamui...
aude
Blue Rajah
You want to be a hero, but all you're doing is whining that nobody is doing
heroic things in your name.
If you think it's your job to save the world, quit being such a wimp and go
do it.
You're not acting like a leader. You're acting like a big baby.
Blue Rajah
"Ow! Ow! Leave me alone! That hurts! Ow! Ow!"
Some big time leader you're turning out to be.
Drop the baggage. Quit jerking yourself off to visions of grandeur.
IllRefute
overly critical of him, he has a point. All that excess baggage you mentioned,
see through it to what he was trying to get at ultimately. He wanted to get
people motivated towards doing something which he feels is right. The Taliban
isn't the focus of my 'political agenda' (if you'd call it that, it's not
really political tho), but there are things a small group of intelligent people
with enough time on thier hands can do. Not to glorify Hitler (he was just a
pawn anyway) but the Nazi Party originated as a small philosophical discussion
group based, in part, on Theosophy, Thulism, etc. Working with egregores would
be a nessesity.
The problem with using 1 specific NG as a starting point, as you mentioned, is
the diversity. The idea is to make it broad enough that diverse groups will see
worth in it and diverse goals can be achieved through it, while ultimately
achieving the main agenda. The miniscule details would be tuff to get at, but
organizing and operating such a group wouldn't be that hard given enough effort
and inginuity and if the work load is properly distributed amungst enough
people of the right skills and personality. The other problem, even if the
Taliban would be something to focus on, is focusing on the Taliban. Groups like
these take time to form. By the time this group would be up and running it
would probably be too late to do anything. But as you said, there are other
evils to be fought, many of them more evil than the Taliban and Bin Laden. Some
of them right here in America, some transcend political boundries. So I can see
value in a group like that. The main evil I see is stupidity and disreguard in
certain institutions. There isn't much that can be done but things can be done.
But keep in mind;
The majority of people who will join will most probably be categorized as 'the
herd'; sympathetic passers-by, people who trully are into it but for whatever
reason won't contribute much or anything worthwhile, lonely people, etc.
For best effectiveness it should be non-hierarchical by nature since authority
would stifle progress, but assume an ad-hoced hierarchy based on natural
aristocracy and social darwinism (as well as some other factors depending on
the project, situation and people involved) when working on projects for
efficiency. I could go into this more, but it would probly take quite a few
pages of text and I'd definately leave out some things in the process.
Jason, if you wanna talk to me more about this lemme know, I've been hashing
out similar things for a while, but I'm still stuck on finding a definite goal
and a means of working towards it on multiple levels (non-magickal although
it'll leek into that area eventually. for practicality, magick would be used
sparingly until things are at least halfway hashed out). A Think-Tank is the
first thing needed before any form of action can be taken. I've also got plenty
of links towards info on these things, but they're centered around my personal
ideas, goals and interests so I'm not sure how things would work out. But like
I said, I'm willing to play the game, and there's nothing wrong with people of
diverse yet related goals helping each other out.
Did you check out that underground philosopher I mentioned? He's got some input
on these things, I'll send you a link to a good source on his writings.
Also, patriotism is good and it should be invoked -and- evoked, but jail should
be avoided if possible. Risks will need to be taken reguardless, but it's
better not to be stupid about it. Underground is the best way to go, although a
few surface groups would be beneficial.
"Sanity is a trick pony anyway. I mean seriously, all you get is that one
trick. When you're good and crazy, the sky's the limit!"
-The Tick
So what *is* the difference between a duck?
Blue Rajah
"IllRefute" <illr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011026155443...@mb-mp.aol.com...
> reguardless of whether Jason is trying to pump up his ego or
> Blue is being overly critical of him, he has a point. All that
> excess baggage you mentioned, see through it to what he
> was trying to get at ultimately.
What Jason is trying to get at ultimately is that people should do whatever
he tells them to. He wants to be a leader, but he doesn't understand that
leading isn't just telling people what to do.
> He wanted to get people motivated towards doing something
> which he feels is right.
He should first learn how to do that, then. As it is, he's just throwing
one tantrum after another.
Jason
I have accomplished all of their initiations without stepping
foot in a Lodge. They blackball me black only seeing
the reflection of their ego's. The Goddess and her servants
will fall. Babalon is falling,watch-out,bro. I am the think tank.
With all do respect, I don't want you to die for this cause.
It is my fate. Others now will call me a Martyr. Fuck-em.
"IllRefute" <illr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011026155443...@mb-mp.aol.com...
Jason
"Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:CNlC7.1950$7j4.3...@news.uswest.net...
Leading in a Holy War is exploiting Lies, Hatred,and Evil that
are the sole reason of its beggining. Please continue to be so blind,
I rather enjoy watching you stumble. You've refused,Joels advice,
and he's a I-Ching Scholar from a different Galaxy! You've written
me off as a fruad,'cause frankly,you've alot to hide from God. I
tried to inform you of present day magickal happenings,but you
refuse to accept a reality in which you cannot perceive with the
senses. That is why we fight for you and not against you. I still
will aid in your defence,first you have to lay down your defences.
Tom, you have many. Good-day.
Blue Rajah
>
> "Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:CNlC7.1950$7j4.3...@news.uswest.net...
> >
throwing
> > one tantrum after another.
>
> Leading in a Holy War is exploiting Lies, Hatred,and Evil that
> are the sole reason of its beggining. Please continue to be so blind,
> I rather enjoy watching you stumble. You've refused,Joels advice,
> and he's a I-Ching Scholar from a different Galaxy! You've written
> me off as a fruad,'cause frankly,you've alot to hide from God. I
> tried to inform you of present day magickal happenings,but you
> refuse to accept a reality in which you cannot perceive with the
> senses. That is why we fight for you and not against you. I still
> will aid in your defence,first you have to lay down your defences.
> Tom, you have many. Good-day.
One temper tantrum after another.
Jason
I finally found your humor.Bastard:) I make one hell of a point
in these tantrums of mine,do I not?
Blue Rajah
>
> "Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:DIrC7.2278$7j4.6...@news.uswest.net...
> >
>
> I finally found your humor.Bastard:) I make one hell of a point
> in these tantrums of mine,do I not?
The only point you're making is that you're a big baby. The rest of it is
just bullshit.
Jason
ek-ek-Waaaah,ek-ek-Waaaah. :(
Jason
conversant in it? Hold a PhD? Belong,
if only in Spirit, to a Universal Chain,
falsely called a Brotherhood? No?
OK.then. Good-bye,Tom. I wish
you well seeing beyond your antics.
Call mine what you will, but if I were
you and everyone adept told me that
I had issues to deal with and they were
the same issues suggested by different
people who "care", then I would do
something about it. Using the ego to escape
individation by pushing blame on the ego
itself causes more individuation/attatchment.
I would suggest reading what modern-day
scholars write on Jung's " Shadow" Take it
or leave it, just leave me be as I AM.
Namaste.
"Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:j1BC7.147$PA6.1...@news.uswest.net...
Blue Rajah
> Psychology is a useful tool,no?
If you know how to use it.
> Are you conversant in it?
Yes.
> Hold a PhD?
Master's level, not PhD. You?
> Call mine what you will,
I do.
> but if I were
> you and everyone adept told me that
> I had issues to deal with and they were
> the same issues suggested by different
> people who "care", then I would do
> something about it.
Of course, that would assume that everyone else knew what they were talking
about. Actually only a few do. It would also assume that you knew how to
differentiate between a adept and a bullshit artist. Without a skeptical
approach, you won't be able to do that.
Are you familiar with the Horos affair in the history of the Golden Dawn?
It should serve as an object lesson to every magician in just how credulous
belief will eventually make even the most educated adept look like an
idiot.
Jason
>
> "Jason" <nex...@gulftel.com> wrote in message
> news:9rf7g...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> > Psychology is a useful tool,no?
>
> If you know how to use it.
>
> > Are you conversant in it?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Hold a PhD?
>
> Master's level, not PhD. You?
Noviciate,though expert qabalist.
> > Call mine what you will,
>
> I do.
> > but if I were
> > you and everyone adept told me that
> > I had issues to deal with and they were
> > the same issues suggested by different
> > people who "care", then I would do
> > something about it.
>
> Of course, that would assume that everyone else knew what they were
talking about. Actually only a few do. It would also assume that you knew
how to differentiate between a adept and a bullshit artist. Without a
skeptical approach, you won't be able to do that.
>
> Are you familiar with the Horos affair in the history of the Golden Dawn?
> It should serve as an object lesson to every magician in just how
credulous
> belief will eventually make even the most educated adept look like an
> idiot.
No. Please do explain. As I now see your vantage,I understand you
and your approach. Do not underestimate my cognative intuition , I shall
prove you credulous if there are tricks. I'm intrigued,Tom;and sincerely,
wholeheartedly interested in your magickal maturity at this point. I'm blind
in sight and extracorporeal ability. These are the atainments of those
below the Aybss. If you would enlighten me,sir...
Panoptes
Blue Rajah wrote:
> Are you familiar with the Horos affair in the history of the Golden Dawn?
> It should serve as an object lesson to every magician in just how credulous
> belief will eventually make even the most educated adept look like an
> idiot.
" In the province of the mind what one believes to be true......"
John C. Lilly
So glad I groked that back in my teens. Never the less, I still
duped myself for wanting to believe against my better experience and
judgment by trying to socialize and do my part to help advance /
initiate humanity into the "New Aeon" via Organizations/Cults unto the
letter of the Law from Crowley's Holy Gospel.
Adi Da Samraj
Edward Alexander Crowley
James Michael Lower
I'll not deceive myself again!
Love,
James Michael Lower
Jason
"Panoptes" <pano...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3BDB543C...@worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Blue Rajah wrote:
>
>
> > Are you familiar with the Horos affair in the history of the Golden
Dawn? It should serve as an object lesson to every magician in just how
credulous belief will eventually make even the most educated adept look like
an idiot.
>
> " In the province of the mind what one believes to be true......"
> John C. Lilly
>
> So glad I groked that back in my teens. Never the less, I still
> duped myself for wanting to believe against my better experience and
> judgment by trying to socialize and do my part to help advance /
> initiate humanity into the "New Aeon" via Organizations/Cults unto the
> letter of the Law from Crowley's Holy Gospel.
>
> Adi Da Samraj
Is this a Praeter-Human Intelligence?
Al-Ghazib-Zha, at one point hit me at the core of my being as
being a name that I had affinity with. After hearing it, I began the
most painful and beautiful journeys a man could ever have the
pleasure of experiencing. I will not mislead any further. I am
lost now. One Illusion that remains is the Temple at Boleskine.
I have neither the money or protection to make this journey even
if the first Enochian Temple of the 1st Aether LIL is real. I intuit
your Superior is very dissapointed in my performance of my,
on the surface, egoism. My intentions are supreme, please tell
him this,Mr.Lower.
Jason
"Panoptes"
I shall now,Frater,explain to you how I learn my lessons from God:
Being an Initiate directly below,God, I only hear Its Wisdom by
expressing a Truth as I perceive it and later learn from the mistake
only either haven been spoken or expressed by revolving the issue
or idea in my Mind. I learn by falling. I stand to realise a Truth from
the Ineffable only to fall once more. A continuous strength of purpose
and perserverence to Understand fully the Nature of Mind to reflect
upon the Mind's Will, to reflect upon the Will's Unmanifested Existence.
I am the Ipsissimus , a child of 5 years is in preperation from Magister
Templi to Magus, you are The Magister Templi, and Martin P.Starr,or William
Barden is an Adeptus Major of the A.'.A.'.. This is all I know to
be true, I only wish the men who haven't the Universal Right or capabilities
to establash God's rule on this Planet and all throughout ou Majestical
Universe,would now admit the fault of their folly and give us our reins
back. I am utterly dissapointed in men and the lies in which they adhere to.
This only adds weight to injustices of Divine Law.As a man I now speak, I
love all brothers and sisters on this planet, I only pray to God Its
permission and Knowledge to free us from the bondage of ourselves, to know,
once again, The Kingdom from which we fell. I pray to, God...
Panoptes
Jason wrote:
STOP
Jason
>
> "Jason" <nex...@gulftel.com> wrote in message
> news:9rf7g...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> > Psychology is a useful tool,no?
>
> If you know how to use it.
>
> > Are you conversant in it?
>
> Yes.
>
> > Hold a PhD?
>
> Master's level, not PhD. You?
>
> > Call mine what you will,
>
> I do.
>
> > but if I were
> > you and everyone adept told me that
> > I had issues to deal with and they were
> > the same issues suggested by different
> > people who "care", then I would do
> > something about it.
>
> Of course, that would assume that everyone else knew what they were
talking about.
Actually only a few do.
I wish not to contest your personality,but this principle:
All understand these occult principles if only someone
would come a long and rekindle the flame of the souls
memory of it. All is contained within,not to be sought
without.
It would also assume that you knew how to differentiate between a adept
and a bullshit artist. Without a skeptical approach, you won't be able to
do that.
I certainly do. No offense,remind you. Reflect and not project.
Blue Rajah
>
> "Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote in message
> news:rAHC7.501$Ju6.2...@news.uswest.net...
> >
Dawn?
> > It should serve as an object lesson to every magician in just how
> > credulous belief will eventually make even the most educated adept look
> > like an idiot.
>
> No. Please do explain.
OK. Serious Victorian dish time.
You probably know a lot of this background, but in case someone doesn't,
I'll set up the scene.
In 1892, S. L. Mathers and W. Wynn Westcott created the Order of the Golden
Dawn in England, based on a document that is commonly called "the Cipher
Manuscript", in which the bare bones of a Rosicrucian ritual are laid out
and a page in which the address of a woman in Germany, identified as "Anna
Sprengel", is given.
Nobody ever met Anna Sprengel. The only evidence of her existence at all
is the letters that she allegedly sent in response when Westcott and
Mathers wrote to her. These letters authorized Mathers and Westcott to set
up the first Order of the Golden Dawn in England.
Things went smoothly for a while, but politics got rocky around 1895 and
Mathers had to play a little rough to stay on top of the Order. Westcott,
his main competitor, was disgraced in 1897 and quit the order, leaving
Mathers solely in charge, but with a murmurring and discontented crew.
In 1900, it looked to Mathers like there was a conspiracy to bring back
Westcott and oust him. Whereupon, Mathers dropped a bomb. He accused
Westcott of forging the letters from Anna Sprengel. Westcott didn't deny
it. The members were flabbergasted. They had trusted these guys and now
it turns out it had all been a lie. The Order was damaged beyond repair.
It's fragmentation and ultimate dissolution was just a matter of time.
By 1901, things weren't going so well for Mathers. His Order was in
turmoil. He and his ally, Aleister Crowley, had been ejected. He was a
virtual pariah. Then, an opportunity for redemption arose. A person had
shown up claiming to -be- Anna Sprengel and displayed a knowledge of
certain secrets that only a high adept of the Order would know. Mathers
was stunned. He'd thought Anna Sprengel was just a fictional character
Westcott had made up. But here was this woman who knew what only Anna
Sprengel could possibly have known. Or so it seemed to him. And if she
was Anna Sprengel, and she backed Mathers up, she was just the person who
could put him back in the driver's seat.
In actuality, the woman identifying herself as Anna Sprengel was actually
one of a pair of con artists who had been bilking gullible occultists and
spiritualists all over Europe, where they were known as Mr. and Mrs. Theo
Horos. Mrs. Horos was also known as Swami Viva Ananda. She and her
husband had come across some stray GD documents and made the most of them.
Mathers fell for it like a ton of bricks. They used the trust of Mathers
to "borrow" some GD ritual material from him. Using what Mathers
credulously gave them, they set up a bogus Golden Dawn, primarily to
collect money from students and, as a side benefit, to trick comely young
ladies into sexual indiscretions.
Mathers had been warned about these people by others, but the notion that
this woman was going to return him to power in his old Order was too
attractive for him to use any critical thinking. His pathetic gullibility
was revealed for all to see after the Horos scam was exposed and Horos
himself charged with rape. The original Order's secret rituals were
published in the newspapers and its members made a laughingstock.
How could this supposed paragon of magical attainment, the head of the
Golden Dawn, be taken in by a couple of cheap swindlers posing as adepts?
It's because he let his desires interfere with his critical faculties. He
wouldn't let himself seriously examine the unattractive possibilities so
long as he kept himself worked up over the possibility of glittering
prizes. He wanted to be King more than he wanted to know the truth.
This is a cautionary tale.
Jason
>
> "Jason" <nex...@gulftel.com> wrote in message
> news:9rfij...@enews4.newsguy.com...
> >
> > "Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote in message
> > news:rAHC7.501$Ju6.2...@news.uswest.net...
> > >
> > > Are you familiar with the Horos affair in the history of the Golden
> Dawn? It should serve as an object lesson to every magician in just how
credulous belief will eventually make even the most educated adept look
like an idiot.
> > No. Please do explain.
>
> OK. Serious Victorian dish time.
>
> You probably know a lot of this background, but in case someone doesn't,
I'll set up the scene In 1892, S. L. Mathers and W. Wynn Westcott created
the Order of the Golden Dawn in England, based on a document that is
commonly called "the Cipher Manuscript", in which the bare bones of a
Rosicrucian ritual are laid out and a page in which the address of a woman
in Germany, identified as "Anna Sprengel", is given.
Yes. The MS was only partial instruction in ritual because the Illuminati
"knew" Mathers would run rampant in his infernal desires. These were the
likes to the Three Magi Kings of Christ, not fooled easily.
> Nobody ever met Anna Sprengel. The only evidence of her existence at all
is the letters that she allegedly sent in response when Westcott and
Mathers wrote to her. These letters authorized Mathers and Westcott to set
up the first Order of the Golden Dawn in England. Things went smoothly for
a while, but politics got rocky around 1895 and Mathers had to play a little
rough to stay on top of the Order. Westcott, his main competitor, was
disgraced in 1897 and quit the order, leaving Mathers solely in charge, but
with a murmurring and discontented crew.
Well aware.This is when " Magickal War " broke out...
> In 1900, it looked to Mathers like there was a conspiracy to bring back
Westcott and oust him. Whereupon, Mathers dropped a bomb. He accused
Westcott of forging the letters from Anna Sprengel. Westcott didn't deny
it. The members were flabbergasted. They had trusted these guys and now it
turns out it had all been a lie.
>The Order was damaged beyond repair.
This is when Crowley restored Order, not from the so-called Secret
Chiefs, but by those who've followed Craft of Jesus, Solomon before him,
King to Ishtar before him, and God Itself before all. Had you heard about
the unearthing of her Temple in Iraq this summer? It have me a hard-on.
>It's fragmentation and ultimate dissolution was just a matter of time.
>By 1901, things weren't going so well for Mathers. His Order was >in
turmoil. He and his ally, Aleister Crowley, had been ejected. He was a
>virtual pariah. Then, an opportunity for redemption arose. A person had
>shown up claiming to -be- Anna Sprengel and displayed a knowledge of
>certain secrets that only a high adept of the Order would know. Mathers
>was stunned. He'd thought Anna Sprengel was just a fictional character
>Westcott had made up. But here was this woman who knew what only >Anna
Sprengel could possibly have known. Or so it seemed to him. And >if she
was Anna Sprengel, and she backed Mathers up, she was just the >person who
could put him back in the driver's seat.
>In actuality, the woman identifying herself as Anna Sprengel was actually
>one of a pair of con artists who had been bilking gullible occultists and
>spiritualists all over Europe, where they were known as Mr. and Mrs. >Theo
Horos.
I haven't heard of Horos, but have heard of the the twin sisters who had
fooled all of Europe at about this time. I forgot their names and where I
read of them. Con artists that played even Blavatsky with their mentalist
tricks. If you know of them, please let me know. One thing is for certain,
Ms.Sprengel was a Countess of Bavaira acting on behalf of her Count.
I wonder where Lord and Lady are today? Or do you believe in re-
incarnation? If not, how do you explain history repeating itself in cycles.
Take alt.magick and CNN for example.
>Mrs. Horos was also known as Swami Viva Ananda. She and her
>husband had come across some stray GD documents and made the most >of them.
Mathers fell for it like a ton of bricks. They used the trust of >Mathers
"borrow" some GD ritual material from him. Using what Mathers
>credulously gave them, they set up a bogus Golden Dawn, primarily to
>collect money from students and, as a side benefit, to trick comely young
>ladies into sexual indiscretions.Mathers had been warned about these
>people by others, but the notion that this woman was going to return him to
>power in his old Order was too attractive for him to use any critical
>thinking. His pathetic gullibility was revealed for all to see after the
Horos >scam was exposed and Horos himself charged with rape. The original
>Order's secret rituals were published in the newspapers and its members
>made a laughingstock. How could this supposed paragon of magical
>attainment, the head of the Golden Dawn, be taken in by a couple of cheap
swindlers posing as adepts?
The whole lineage of Golden Dawn was played as a pawn. Hegamon who
hadn't transcended the astral? Crowley restored the lineage partially, but
I should bet a mere dollar that none in the whole lineage of G.D. found
the secret to attainment above the Abyss. I admid fault, though it happened
yesterday.
> It's because he let his desires interfere with his critical faculties. He
> wouldn't let himself seriously examine the unattractive possibilities so
> long as he kept himself worked up over the possibility of glittering
> prizes.
>He wanted to be King more than he wanted to know the truth.
There is indeed room for serious speculation ,Tom. Though I am
not the reason God directed your intention.
> This is a cautionary tale.
Prizes? Could care less. It's the Highland Scottish " Freedom " that I am
after. Cautionary indeed. Take a look at it.
Gnome d Plume
<danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
>
>"Jason" <nex...@gulftel.com> wrote in message
>news:9rfij...@enews4.newsguy.com...
>>
>> "Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote in message
>> news:rAHC7.501$Ju6.2...@news.uswest.net...
>> >
>> > Are you familiar with the Horos affair in the history of the Golden
>Dawn?
>> > It should serve as an object lesson to every magician in just how
>> > credulous belief will eventually make even the most educated adept look
>> > like an idiot.
>>
>> No. Please do explain.
>
>OK. Serious Victorian dish time.
>
>You probably know a lot of this background, but in case someone doesn't,
>I'll set up the scene.
******Tom:
Please allow me to make a few corrections---for "the record". ******
>
>In 1892, *****(1887 actually)*****S. L. Mathers and W. Wynn Westcott created
>the Order of the Golden >Dawn in England, based on a document that is commonly
>called "the Cipher Manuscript", in which the bare bones of a Rosicrucian ritual are laid out
>and a page in which the address of a woman in Germany, identified as "Anna
>Sprengel", is given.
******Westcott was the first in line and wrote the original Outer
Order rituals. The German adept was never known as "Anna" Sprengel.
The "Anna" is entirely apocryphal*******
>
>Nobody ever met Anna Sprengel. The only evidence of her existence at all
>is the letters that she allegedly sent in response when Westcott and
>Mathers wrote to her.
****Mathers never wrote any letters to Sprengel******
>These letters authorized Mathers and Westcott to set
>up the first Order of the Golden Dawn in England.
>
>Things went smoothly for a while, but politics got rocky around 1895 and
>Mathers had to play a little rough to stay on top of the Order. Westcott,
>his main competitor, was disgraced in 1897 and quit the order, leaving
>Mathers solely in charge, but with a murmurring and discontented crew.
*****Not true. Mathers and his wife moved to Paris. Westcott was still
in good standing in London until the Horos affair brought on the
crisis after 1900. Westcott kept a low profile because he was a Crown
coroner in London's West End.*****
>
>In 1900, it looked to Mathers like there was a conspiracy to bring back
>Westcott and oust him. Whereupon, Mathers dropped a bomb. He accused
>Westcott of forging the letters from Anna Sprengel. Westcott didn't deny
>it. The members were flabbergasted.
*******This is out of sequence. Mathers did not accuse Westcott of
inventing Sprengel until he was well into his relationship with the
Horos couple and the G.D. was unraveling. He was trying to grab
"Secret Chiefism" for himself. *****
>They had trusted these guys and now
>it turns out it had all been a lie. The Order was damaged beyond repair.
>It's fragmentation and ultimate dissolution was just a matter of time.
******Mathers colossal cupidity in the Horos Affair, and the public
scandal that resulted, was what shattered the original Golden Dawn,
not the quibble over Hockley and Mackenzie's "Cypher Manuscript." Get
your facts and your history straight.*******
>
>By 1901, things weren't going so well for Mathers. His Order was in
>turmoil. He and his ally, Aleister Crowley, had been ejected. He was a
>virtual pariah. Then, an opportunity for redemption arose. A person had
>shown up claiming to -be- Anna Sprengel and displayed a knowledge of
>certain secrets that only a high adept of the Order would know.
******No. She claimed to have "absorbed" Helena Blavatsky (making her
very, very large!) and she "channeled" *the real* Fraulein Sprengel
for Mathers---which shows that he was off his chump, because he later
stated that he knew Westcott had "invented" Sprengel. ******
>was stunned. He'd thought Anna Sprengel was just a fictional character
>Westcott had made up. But here was this woman who knew what only Anna
>Sprengel could possibly have known. Or so it seemed to him.
****Wrong again. Madame Horos knew details of a private conversation
Mathers had had with the late Helena Blavatsky.******
>If she was Anna Sprengel, and she backed Mathers up, she was just the person who
>could put him back in the driver's seat.
*****Somewhat correct; Mathers was mad like a rabid fox.******
>
>In actuality, the woman identifying herself as Anna Sprengel ****(sic)****
>was actually one of a pair of con artists who had been bilking gullible occultists and
>spiritualists all over Europe, where they were known as Mr. and Mrs. Theo
>Horos. Mrs. Horos was also known as Swami Viva Ananda.
****They were Americans; real name Jackson. *****
>She and her and her husband had come across some stray GD documents
> and made the most of them.
****Like all "big cons" these folks did their homework. They met G.D.
initiates in the U.S., pumped them, and then infiltrated the
Theosophical Society for background on Blavatsky. They later started a
cult in South Africa! ******
>Mathers fell for it like a ton of bricks. They used the trust of Mathers
>to "borrow" some GD ritual material from him. Using what Mathers
>credulously gave them, they set up a bogus Golden Dawn, primarily to
>collect money from students and, as a side benefit, to trick comely young
>ladies into sexual indiscretions.
>
>Mathers had been warned about these people by others, but the notion that
>this woman was going to return him to power in his old Order was too
>attractive for him to use any critical thinking. His pathetic gullibility
>was revealed for all to see after the Horos scam was exposed and Horos
>himself charged with rape. The original Order's secret rituals were
>published in the newspapers and its members made a laughingstock.
****This is sadly true. Mathers, though certainly a genius, was IMO
by that time insane. He was entirely sexually continent; although
married to a beautiful woman who adored him. We can speculate as to
whether their karreza type sex-magick and their bohemian poverty
added to their eccentricity, and their vulnerability.*****
>
>How could this supposed paragon of magical attainment, the head of the
>Golden Dawn, be taken in by a couple of cheap swindlers posing as adepts?
*****The Horos couple were a bit more than "cheap" swindlers. The
Jackson's were big cons. Such professionals are very well-prepared and
naturally charismatic. Blavatsky set the stage for them---and, I might
add, created the mileau in which Westcott found it necessary to create
an innocent "Charter myth" to cast a veil of glamor over Mackenzie's
cyphers. In all probability there really was a "Fraulein Sprengel", in
the person of Mackenzie's widow, Alexandrina, whom Westcott sponsored
as an initiate in the Golden Dawn. He also credited Mackenzie and
Hockley, the original authors of the Cyph. MS., as progenitors of the
G.D. in his official history lecture.********
>
>It's because he let his desires interfere with his critical faculties. He
>wouldn't let himself seriously examine the unattractive possibilities so
>long as he kept himself worked up over the possibility of glittering
>prizes. He wanted to be King more than he wanted to know the truth.
>
>This is a cautionary tale.
*****We almost agree about Mathers. But I see him as a
larger-than-life Quixotic figure, with ferocious ego, genius and
energy, driven to megalomaniacal excesses by crushing poverty, lack of
recognition, and sexual frustration. His life was a real tragedy and
is worthy of a good dramatic treatment. Dr. Westcott, on the other
hand, was a gentle, benign romantic who primarily wanted to establish
a real Rosicrucian College and Order of Magick. Whatever "forging" he
did was not self-serving or even ego-oriented--else he would have made
himself High Chief and not shared power with Mathers and Woodman. The
Golden Dawn was Westcott's gift to those romantic souls who yearned,
as he did, for a Great Western Esoteric Tradition. Mathers deserves
our compassionate understanding, and Dr. William Wynn Westcott
deserves our highest respect.*******
Good Magick!
Poke Runyon
Author: *Secrets of the Golden Dawn Cypher Manuscript*
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/104-3428011-5857504
>
>
Panoptes
Gnome d Plume wrote:
We can speculate as to
> whether their karreza type sex-magick and their bohemian poverty
> added to their eccentricity, and their vulnerability.*****
As to their 'eccentricity', perhaps. 'vulnerability' uh, could you
mean suggestability? Sure..... We both know that trance is the basis of
various techniques that induce 'alternate states of awareness', Don't we?
Love,
Panoptes
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
******Although I've never experimented with these methods, I
understand that a tremendous concentration of energy can be developed
and transmuted into mystic/magical visionary states in this manner.
If this is so, we might speculate on whether Sam and Moina Mathers
"drove each other crazy" by totally, and endlessly, adoring each other
without sexual consumation. As interesting as this is to speculate on,
I suspect it is more probable that this was only a contributing
factor. Mathers was showing signs of meglomania even before the Golden
Dawn was founded. It is one thing to create a romantic persona and
"play the role," but when you start believing your own glamor, you are
heading for trouble. In this sense Crowley was saner than his mentor
Mathers. A.C. never seemed to take his saint hoods and knighthoods
that seriously. Of course in my case the family crest does display
Merovingian golden bees, and the motto is "We Serve the King," so the
Sacred Blood-Line should be obvious----and Sir Luis Culling was the
last of the Palladians.......******
Le Comte de Gnome
Jason
"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3bdc6281...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:34:32 GMT, Panoptes <pano...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Gnome d Plume wrote:
> >
> > We can speculate as to
> >> whether their karreza type sex-magick and their bohemian poverty
> >> added to their eccentricity, and their vulnerability.*****
> >
> >
> > As to their 'eccentricity', perhaps. 'vulnerability' uh, could you
> >mean suggestability? Sure..... We both know that trance is the basis of
> >various techniques that induce 'alternate states of awareness', Don't we?
> >
> >Love,
> >
> >Panoptes
> >
> ******Although I've never experimented with these methods, I
> understand that a tremendous concentration of energy can be developed
> and transmuted into mystic/magical visionary states in this manner.
> If this is so, we might speculate on whether Sam and Moina Mathers
> "drove each other crazy" by totally, and endlessly, adoring each other
> without sexual consumation. As interesting as this is to speculate on,
> I suspect it is more probable that this was only a contributing
> factor. Mathers was showing signs of meglomania even before the Golden
> Dawn was founded. It is one thing to create a romantic persona and
> "play the role," but when you start believing your own glamor, you are
> heading for trouble.
Below the Gulf of Understanding,yes. Above it, no. Change
on Assiah through High Magick only manifests through Play.
Did not the Greek Gods themselves play the muse in the Mount?
The likes of Philosopher Kings were the result of their Sacred
Acting,no?
Blue Rajah
>
> ******Westcott was the first in line and wrote the original Outer
> Order rituals. The German adept was never known as "Anna" Sprengel.
> The "Anna" is entirely apocryphal*******
This is pretty accurate. In the Cipher Manuscript she is referred to as
"Fraulein Sprengel". The "Anna" part came from a later assumption by Dr.
Felkin that a woman named "Anna Sprengel", was, in fact the legendary
Fraulein Sprengel or a near relative. Dr. Felkin contacted her, but she
denied any knowledge of any such person. Somehow, probably through a
garbled conversation with Dr. Felkin, the name "Anna" became linked to the
mysterious (and probably fictional) Fraulein Sprengel.
I apologize for relying on memory to tell the tale rather than checking the
details against historical accounts.
> >Nobody ever met Anna Sprengel. The only evidence of her existence
> >at all is the letters that she allegedly sent in response when Westcott
> >and Mathers wrote to her.
>
> ****Mathers never wrote any letters to Sprengel******
Again, technically correct. Westcott, who Mathers later accused of having
made up Sprengel, claimed to have corresponded with her.
> >Mathers had been warned about these people by others, but the
> >notion that this woman was going to return him to power in his old
> >Order was too attractive for him to use any critical thinking. His
> >pathetic gullibility was revealed for all to see after the Horos scam
> >was exposed and Horos himself charged with rape. The original
> >Order's secret rituals were published in the newspapers and its
> >members made a laughingstock.
>
> ****This is sadly true. Mathers, though certainly a genius, was IMO
> by that time insane. He was entirely sexually continent; although
> married to a beautiful woman who adored him. We can speculate as to
> whether their karreza type sex-magick and their bohemian poverty
> added to their eccentricity, and their vulnerability.*****
It wasn't all that uncommon from Victorian couples not to couple, as it
were. Those were particularly sexually-repressed times among the
main-stream English society.
I don't know if Mathers was "insane" exactly. I'd say he was irrational,
though.
> >How could this supposed paragon of magical attainment, the
> >head of the Golden Dawn, be taken in by a couple of cheap
> >swindlers posing as adepts?
>
> *****The Horos couple were a bit more than "cheap" swindlers. The
> Jackson's were big cons. Such professionals are very well-prepared and
> naturally charismatic.
Well, I wouldn't put them on par with Michael Milken or that guy who
publicly sold the Eiffel Tower for scrap twice (twice!). Those were
swindlers extraordinaire. The two that made a monkey out of Mathers were
accomplished swindlers, but they were only small-time crooks, petty in both
their goals and their methods. That's what I mean by "cheap".
> *****We almost agree about Mathers. But I see him as a
> larger-than-life Quixotic figure, with ferocious ego, genius and
> energy, driven to megalomaniacal excesses by crushing poverty, lack of
> recognition, and sexual frustration. His life was a real tragedy and
> is worthy of a good dramatic treatment. Dr. Westcott, on the other
> hand, was a gentle, benign romantic who primarily wanted to establish
> a real Rosicrucian College and Order of Magick. Whatever "forging" he
> did was not self-serving or even ego-oriented--else he would have made
> himself High Chief and not shared power with Mathers and Woodman.
An organization aspiring to the discovery of ultmate truth is founded on a
lie.
You ask what's wrong with that? Castles built on sand, Poke. Castles
built on sand.
Gnome d Plume
<danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
*******Good discussion. Let me round off a few more points: ******
*******I must disagree with this. You are judging their criminal
craftiness, skill and talent by purely monetary standards. The
Jacksons were playing a perverted occult power game and enjoying it
to the hilt. If they had applied their efforts to mundane fraud they
probably would have been more successful by your standards.
But people who chose their own work often do what they like, in
preference to doing only what makes more money (this seems to apply to
criminals as well as honest folks). Mrs. Horos (Jackson) is listed as
one the 19th century's most notorious women in at least one
compendium, so she has a memorial of sorts. These two were very
clever and they were able to obtain some remarkable background
information for their Golden Dawn swindle. ******
>
>> *****We almost agree about Mathers. But I see him as a
>> larger-than-life Quixotic figure, with ferocious ego, genius and
>> energy, driven to megalomaniacal excesses by crushing poverty, lack of
>> recognition, and sexual frustration. His life was a real tragedy and
>> is worthy of a good dramatic treatment. Dr. Westcott, on the other
>> hand, was a gentle, benign romantic who primarily wanted to establish
>> a real Rosicrucian College and Order of Magick. Whatever "forging" he
>> did was not self-serving or even ego-oriented--else he would have made
>> himself High Chief and not shared power with Mathers and Woodman.
>
>An organization aspiring to the discovery of ultmate truth is founded on a
>lie.
>
>You ask what's wrong with that? Castles built on sand, Poke. Castles
>built on sand.
******Again I disagree. The Golden Dawn was founded on a very solid
base of carefully reconstructed and synthesized Western Esoteric Lore.
The Cipher (Cypher) Manuscript was a brilliant creation based on
continental Rosicrucian lodge models and an expert synthesis of
European and English occult material. Frederick Hockley had the
largest collection of magical manuscripts outside of the British
Library itself. Kenneth Mackenzie was Hockley's protege and a Masonic
scholar of prodigious learning. The mandatory "Blavatskyistic" glamor
that Westcott created was nothing more than a "Charter Myth." The real
value of the founding instrument is in the work itself.
I suggest you read the Cypher Manuscript and a commentary on
its meaning (unfortunately mine is the only version with such a
commentary, so you have no choice) and learn to appreciate what a
treasure it is.
This solid foundation of esoteric lore is why various Golden
Dawn organizations have more members today than the original G. D. had
before 1900.
And remember what Bob Zink said: "You need this book." ******
Good Magick!
Gnome d Plume
http://members.aol.com/CHSOTA/productions.html
www.amazon.com
>
tra...@pipeline.com
>
>******Again I disagree. The Golden Dawn was founded on a very solid
>base of carefully reconstructed and synthesized Western Esoteric Lore.
>The Cipher (Cypher) Manuscript was a brilliant creation based on
>continental Rosicrucian lodge models and an expert synthesis of
>European and English occult material.
Well, it takes more than reconstructed and syntesized Western
Esoteric Lore, Gnome, and if the people involved are dishonest
from the very start, well........and obviously that was of import
to the members.
I think Blue is arguing from the postion of ethics, and you from
the value of the documents.
>Frederick Hockley had the
>largest collection of magical manuscripts outside of the British
>Library itself. Kenneth Mackenzie was Hockley's protege and a Masonic
>scholar of prodigious learning. The mandatory "Blavatskyistic" glamor
>that Westcott created was nothing more than a "Charter Myth." The real
>value of the founding instrument is in the work itself.
> I suggest you read the Cypher Manuscript and a commentary on
>its meaning (unfortunately mine is the only version with such a
>commentary, so you have no choice) and learn to appreciate what a
>treasure it is.
> This solid foundation of esoteric lore is why various Golden
>Dawn organizations have more members today than the original G. D. had
>before 1900.
> And remember what Bob Zink said: "You need this book." ******
oh gawd :)
Tracy
Jason
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:48:29 -0800, "Blue Rajah"
> <danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> *******Good discussion. Let me round off a few more points: ******
One more point to make and history will be relived as the lessons of the
Truth of history will be revealed,at long last.
> >You ask what's wrong with that? Castles built on sand, Poke. Castles
> >built on sand.
> ******Again I disagree. The Golden Dawn was founded on a very solid
> base of carefully reconstructed and synthesized Western Esoteric Lore.
> The Cipher (Cypher) Manuscript was a brilliant creation based on
> continental Rosicrucian lodge models and an expert synthesis of
> European and English occult material. Frederick Hockley had the
> largest collection of magical manuscripts outside of the British
> Library itself. Kenneth Mackenzie was Hockley's protege and a Masonic
> scholar of prodigious learning. The mandatory "Blavatskyistic" glamor
> that Westcott created was nothing more than a "Charter Myth." The real
> value of the founding instrument is in the work itself. I suggest you read
the
>Cypher Manuscript and a commentary on its meaning (unfortunately mine >is
the only version with such a commentary, so you have no choice) and >learn
to appreciate what a treasure it is. This solid foundation of esoteric >lore
is why various Golden Dawn organizations have more members > today than
the original G. D. had before 1900. And remember what Bob > Zink said: "You
need this book." ******
What are the differences between The Knights Templar( Rosicrucian )
and The Eternal 126 members of The Order of The Dragon? Before
answering,Poke, look up 126 in Sepher Sephiroth and note ON, Priest
of Sumeria. Please also take notice now of the numeration of Gematria
of 126 = 9, Duke(s), King(s) of Edom(Before Creation) "You ask what's wrong
with that? Castles built on sand, Poke. Castles built on sand.", Tom said.
Now, take what was referenced by,Tom and fit in, try as you might, a
Rosicrucian framework into, say, Micheal Milken. A lesson to be drawn?
Certainly so. Are you guilty of this kind of spiritual crime? In a noviciate
way, certainly so... May the weight of your guilt strangle you. Once you
gain consciousness after passing out for a few hours, however, you should
reconsider your vantage with Astarte before it too late.:-)
> Good Magick!
Mine's better.
Gnome d Plume
******I'm sorry I had to throw that in as a joke, and I know you don't
think it's funny---but you ought to get the book. It's the basis for
modern Western Magick.******
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
*******Tom and I agree on one thing at least: you are a drooling
idiot. ******
tra...@pipeline.com
Actually, I was amused.....you know what they say, a sense
of humour keeps one's sanity. :)
>-but you ought to get the book. It's the basis for
>modern Western Magick.******
Well, I like to read kabbalah books by Halevi,
and I am now the eclectic type too. I'm into
Kundalini, mostly, but I stand in both camps.
Like a few others around here :)
Gnome d Plume
>On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:45:24 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) wrote:
>
>
>>
>>******Again I disagree. The Golden Dawn was founded on a very solid
>>base of carefully reconstructed and synthesized Western Esoteric Lore.
>>The Cipher (Cypher) Manuscript was a brilliant creation based on
>>continental Rosicrucian lodge models and an expert synthesis of
>>European and English occult material.
>
>Well, it takes more than reconstructed and syntesized Western
>Esoteric Lore, Gnome, and if the people involved are dishonest
>from the very start, well........and obviously that was of import
>to the members.
>
>I think Blue is arguing from the postion of ethics, and you from
>the value of the documents.
>
******Tracy, if you want to blame somebody ethically, then blame
Madame Blavatsky. She imposed this "Secret Chiefs" B.S. on the whole
occult community and literally forced Westcott and Mathers to
underwrite a supernatural origin for their Golden Dawn. Under
Blavatsky's edict Westcott created a bare-minimum charter myth.
Schuler's "ethics" is completely without knowledge of history, which
is convenient for his purpose but is out of touch with what was really
going on. Blavatsky's "Secret Chiefs" were the Maharaja of Khasmir and
his brother -in-law. They bankrolled her in India because they were
backing Russia against the British and hated Christianity.
On their direction she moved them to "Tibet" and called them Koot
Houmi and Mooria. This started a phoney Sikh Sant version of "Tibetan
Masterism" that the lunatic fringe is still infected with.
Don't confuse this with the real value of the Golden Dawn
tradition. *******
Gnome
Jason
"Gnome d Plume"
I hardly think,Tom or Joel think I'm an idiot. Testy
aren't we? *smooch* I got your number,asshole.
Jason
"Gnome d Plume"
Dear God you show no shame,sir. You are liar, and a steal,
and a cheat. YOUR soul is STUCK in this period of G.D.
G.D. WAS A SHAM. peroid.
Panoptes
Jason wrote:
Not to worry. "They have probably just gone through the 'soft'
ordeals." Do think either one of them could have kept their sanity under
a Berrson or Eales.....? They call it "putting an irritant in the shell
of an oyster to see if it will produce an oyster or clam." I call it
"Shaking Baby Syndrome." Something their Master: Marcelo Motta, probably
had his fair share of to teach his students/latter day Masters such
bizarre hard knocks, old fashion, methodologies of initiating.
Love,
Panoptes
tra...@pipeline.com
>On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:16:28 GMT, tra...@pipeline.com wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:45:24 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) wrote:
>
>******Tracy, if you want to blame somebody ethically, then blame
>Madame Blavatsky. She imposed this "Secret Chiefs" B.S. on the whole
>occult community and literally forced Westcott and Mathers to
>underwrite a supernatural origin for their Golden Dawn.
Well, that's interesting. Blavatsky....I don't care for her (not meant
as a commentary on any of her writings). But how could she
possibly have forced them? They were not under the domain
of the Theosophists.
>Under
>Blavatsky's edict Westcott created a bare-minimum charter myth.
>Schuler's "ethics" is completely without knowledge of history, which
>is convenient for his purpose but is out of touch with what was really
>going on. Blavatsky's "Secret Chiefs" were the Maharaja of Khasmir and
>his brother -in-law. They bankrolled her in India because they were
>backing Russia against the British and hated Christianity.
So the orginal GD people got directions from the Maharaja of Kashmir?
well.....it really is movie-making stuff! Hmm....so they didn't like the British.
hmm....hmm.....
>On their direction she moved them to "Tibet" and called them Koot
>Houmi and Mooria. This started a phoney Sikh Sant version of "Tibetan
>Masterism" that the lunatic fringe is still infected with.
> Don't confuse this with the real value of the Golden Dawn
>tradition. *******
>
>Gnome
Tracy
Blue Rajah
>
> The Golden Dawn was founded on a very solid
> base of carefully reconstructed and synthesized Western Esoteric Lore.
> The Cipher (Cypher) Manuscript was a brilliant creation based on
> continental Rosicrucian lodge models and an expert synthesis of
> European and English occult material.
But, for some reason, Westcott felt it couldn't stand on its own and
invented a fake history for it. This deception later came back to bite
him.
The degree of trust that is necessary to do really good magical work of the
kind the GD aspired to is very, very high. You are expected to be honest
with your colleagues, and especially with your superiors. In turn, you
expect those colleagues and superiors to be honest with you, too. To have
it suddenly revealed that the leader of the group has been systematically
lying to all of you from the beginning delivers a mortal wound to the
group's development, even if the lie is dismissed by some as something
trivial. Many members of the GD didn't consider a fictional lineage to be
a trivial matter at all.
> And remember what Bob Zink said: "You need this book." ******
Heh. A glowing recommendation.
Gnome d Plume
******You are jumping to the wrong conclusion. Blavatsky's
supernaturalism dominated occultism in the late Victorian era. She
would not "approve" of the Golden Dawn unless they agreed that they
had a supernatural origin. Both Westcott and Mathers were members of
the Theosophical Society, and they agreed to her demand. Please read
"the book." *********
Gnome
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
****** Trolls always lose their cool when they get slapped. Thanks for
confirming your status. ******
G.
Re O酬tat
tra...@pipeline.com wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:10:50 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:16:28 GMT, tra...@pipeline.com wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:45:24 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
> >>wrote:
> >
> >******Tracy, if you want to blame somebody ethically, then blame
> >Madame Blavatsky. She imposed this "Secret Chiefs" B.S. on the whole
> >occult community and literally forced Westcott and Mathers to
> >underwrite a supernatural origin for their Golden Dawn.
>
> Well, that's interesting. Blavatsky....I don't care for her (not meant
> as a commentary on any of her writings). But how could she
> possibly have forced them? They were not under the domain
> of the Theosophists.
Well, Tracy, I think that Poke is really just showing his typical
hyperbole.
In a very broad sense he is correct. However, it might have been a bit
more accurate to say that because she created a mythos for her group,
others founding a similar group may have felt that they would have also
needed a mythos in order to compete.
Many of the original members of the GD came from the TS, primarily
because the GD promised to do what the TS only talked about. HPB became
frightened that the GD would siphon off all of her good people, so she
started the "Esoteric Section" to directly counter the perceived threat
of the GD.
>
> >Under
> >Blavatsky's edict Westcott created a bare-minimum charter myth.
> >Schuler's "ethics" is completely without knowledge of history, which
> >is convenient for his purpose but is out of touch with what was really
> >going on. Blavatsky's "Secret Chiefs" were the Maharaja of Khasmir and
> >his brother -in-law. They bankrolled her in India because they were
> >backing Russia against the British and hated Christianity.
>
>
> So the orginal GD people got directions from the Maharaja of Kashmir?
> well.....it really is movie-making stuff! Hmm....so they didn't like the
> British.
> hmm....hmm.....
Different set of Secret Chiefs.
Seems like the astral plane was just crawling with them in the late 18th
century.
Re
tra...@pipeline.com
>
>Well, Tracy, I think that Poke is really just showing his typical
>hyperbole.
>
>In a very broad sense he is correct. However, it might have been a bit
>more accurate to say that because she created a mythos for her group,
>others founding a similar group may have felt that they would have also
>needed a mythos in order to compete.
>
>Many of the original members of the GD came from the TS, primarily
>because the GD promised to do what the TS only talked about. HPB became
>frightened that the GD would siphon off all of her good people, so she
>started the "Esoteric Section" to directly counter the perceived threat
>of the GD.
well, hmm....I think this sounds more likely too.
Gnome d Plume
*******Schuler, I have explained three times why Westcott created the
Sprengel charter myth. If you continue to pretend that I haven't
explained it, then you are more dishonest than Westcott. I suggest you
practice what you preach: be honest. Don't use intentional
obfuscation.*****
Gnome
Gnome d Plume
>In article <3bdd804f...@news.lvcablemodem.com>,
> tra...@pipeline.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 03:10:50 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:16:28 GMT, tra...@pipeline.com wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 00:45:24 GMT, Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume)
>> >>wrote:
>> >
>> >******Tracy, if you want to blame somebody ethically, then blame
>> >Madame Blavatsky. She imposed this "Secret Chiefs" B.S. on the whole
>> >occult community and literally forced Westcott and Mathers to
>> >underwrite a supernatural origin for their Golden Dawn.
>>
>> Well, that's interesting. Blavatsky....I don't care for her (not meant
>> as a commentary on any of her writings). But how could she
>> possibly have forced them? They were not under the domain
>> of the Theosophists.
>
>
>Well, Tracy, I think that Poke is really just showing his typical
>hyperbole.
*******Before you start making such assumptions, you should read
Robert A. Gilbert's *The Golden Dawn and the Esoteric Section* , from
the Theosophical History Center, London, 1987. ******
>
>In a very broad sense he is correct. However, it might have been a bit
>more accurate to say that because she created a mythos for her group,
>others founding a similar group may have felt that they would have also
>needed a mythos in order to compete.
****No. She actually pressured the G.D. into signing a joint
declaration of supernatural origins.******
>
>Many of the original members of the GD came from the TS, primarily
>because the GD promised to do what the TS only talked about. HPB became
>frightened that the GD would siphon off all of her good people, so she
>started the "Esoteric Section" to directly counter the perceived threat
>of the GD.
>
******That is true.*****
>>
>> >Under
>> >Blavatsky's edict Westcott created a bare-minimum charter myth.
>> >Schuler's "ethics" is completely without knowledge of history, which
>> >is convenient for his purpose but is out of touch with what was really
>> >going on. Blavatsky's "Secret Chiefs" were the Maharaja of Khasmir and
>> >his brother -in-law. They bankrolled her in India because they were
>> >backing Russia against the British and hated Christianity.
>>
>>
>> So the orginal GD people got directions from the Maharaja of Kashmir?
>> well.....it really is movie-making stuff! Hmm....so they didn't like the
>> British.
>> hmm....hmm.....
*******Tracy really bolixed that up.*******
>
>Different set of Secret Chiefs.
>Seems like the astral plane was just crawling with them in the late 18th
>century.
>
*******No. The hills and palaces of Kashmir were crawling with them.
You haven't read K. Paul Johnson's *The Masters Revealed* either, it
seems. You need to catch up on your "Re" search. *****
Gnome
tra...@pipeline.com
Well the reason I asked (and it *was* a question) was that you
said Blavatsky made the GD accept the secret chief BS.
This would imply some control, and it has been shown she
did have some control over them. So - the maharaja of kashmir
"controlled" Blavatsky (else why would she call them her secret chiefs)
and then Blavatsky exerted a measure of control over the GD.
This is just a line of reasoning, mind you.
Tracy
Joseph
>
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:39:36 -0800, "Blue Rajah"
> <danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:3bdc9b3d...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
>
are we then to assume that you, gnome de plume, accept the tom is blue axiom?
i will admit to a residual scepticism, in that the curmudgeon blue seems to me
incompatible with the tom i once new in alt.magick, i remember we had an
exchange with the author of the vassoago stuff and tom was asking for bona
fides, i backed him up and gnome (i think as the author of the vassago stuff)
replied again merely that he had done it with no response to the question
asked merely a re assertion of the previously asserted .....assertions, i
pointed this out to tom privately in e-mali and his response was not only
balanced and sensible but pithy and witty....i miss tom....and i don't think
blue (for all blues admirable qualities) is tom.
Joseph Count de Money.
Jason
"Panoptes" <pano...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3BDCD704...@worldnet.att.net...
What are we to do now? I'm tired and bored to tears.
> Love,
>
> Panoptes
>
Jason
<tra...@pipeline.com>
He doesn't know. He is lying. Blavatksy was well respected
by Crowley. She was a Master Templi, while he a Magus.
History repeats itself it seems. The Secret Chiefs in lineage
are as old as Time itself. Two distinct Classes of Secret
Chiefs: Those who abide in the Light that act as Adepts who
use fear to guard secret of a Temple that is above the Light,
and Praeter-Human Intelligences that abide above Kether.
Both Crowley and Blavatsky were above the Light. Initiation
is successive and accumulative. Meaning that as one evolves
in incarnation one further advances in Initiation of God. It
would appear by example that,Poke defends the inferior of the
Chiefs. The Praeter-Human Intelligence called, LAM was
Blavatkys Holy Guardian Angel. Crowley's was Awaiss.
We all have a name above Kether and the Three veils of
Negative Existence. We are Fallen yet remain Uncreated.
Our Holy Guardian Angels are our Divine Presence that
abides in the Infinite not in the Light. There is an incredible
injustice being created in this world and it is from the likes
of this man, who falsely calls himself,Poke that is creating
all of it.
Jason
"Gnome d Plume"
WHO'S TROLLING WHO MOTHER-FUCKER ?
Satyr
<Gnome...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:57:18 -0700, "Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net>
> wrote:
> ******Tom:
>
> Please allow me to make a few corrections---for "the record". ******
>>
>>In 1892, *****(1887 actually)*****S. L. Mathers and W. Wynn Westcott
>>created the Order of the Golden >Dawn in England, based on a document
>>that is commonly called "the Cipher Manuscript", in which the bare bones
>>of a Rosicrucian ritual are laid out and a page in which the address of
>>a woman in Germany, identified as "Anna Sprengel", is given.
>
> ******Westcott was the first in line and wrote the original Outer Order
> rituals. The German adept was never known as "Anna" Sprengel. The "Anna"
> is entirely apocryphal*******
The use of the word 'apocryphal' in this case is quite amusing. I find
this a rather surprising statement, considering that 'her' name appears
on the Isis-Urania membersip roll as 'A. Sprengel'. That her name should
be 'Anna' seems obvious given her motto, at least to anyone familiar with
some of the source material.
--
Satyr
Listen to the fools reproach! It is a kingly title!
-Wm. Blake
tra...@pipeline.com
>
><tra...@pipeline.com>
>
>He doesn't know. He is lying. Blavatksy was well respected
>by Crowley. She was a Master Templi, while he a Magus.
>History repeats itself it seems. The Secret Chiefs in lineage
>are as old as Time itself.
Well, the lineage that I believe in is the direct connection
to God that everyone on this earth is born with.
Priests are window dressing.
tra...@pipeline.com
>>*******Tracy really bolixed that up.*******
>
>Well the reason I asked (and it *was* a question) was that you
>said Blavatsky made the GD accept the secret chief BS.
>This would imply some control, and it has been shown she
>did have some control over them. So - the maharaja of kashmir
>"controlled" Blavatsky (else why would she call them her secret chiefs)
>and then Blavatsky exerted a measure of control over the GD.
>This is just a line of reasoning, mind you.
No, seriously, I think it's great movie script stuff. Why hasn't anyone
done the movie?
Tracy
Panoptes
tra...@pipeline.com wrote:
If you were a little more aware in mystical experience, you might write otherwise. Timeless
Light. That is ALL.
Love,
Panoptes
Blue Rajah
>
> *******Schuler, I have explained three times why Westcott created the
> Sprengel charter myth. If you continue to pretend that I haven't
> explained it, then you are more dishonest than Westcott. I suggest you
> practice what you preach: be honest. Don't use intentional
> obfuscation.*****
Now don't get all surly. I don't dispute that Westcott may have had
romantic motives to concoct that deception. But that's neither here nor
there, as far as I'm concerned. Explaining why a person lied doesn't erase
the fact that they lied.
There is no functional difference between Westcott's "creating a charter
myth" and his telling a lie about having been granted a charter from some
secret lodge in Europe. He intentionally forged letters from a
non-existent person to support his authority to create a magical
organization. That lie came back to bite him later, when Mathers revealed
his deception.
Put whatever spin on it you like, but the fact remains that Westcott,
whatever else he might have done, deliberately lied to the entire
membership of the Golden Dawn about the authenticity of these letters.
Gnome d Plume
******Tracy:
Now you have it right, and yes, it would make a great movie. Tom
Schuler is so quick to blame Dr. Westcott for his minor fib about
Mackenzie's Cypher MS. that he totally ignores this world-class
mumbo-jumbo going on in India which promoted and financed "The Secret
Masters" delusion. Why it would make a great movie right now is that
then (1880s-1890s) Russia and Britain were engaged in a shadow war in
Kashmir, Afghanistan and Tibet. The Brits even invaded Tibet in 1904,
thinking there were Cossacks up there! (There weren't) The original
"King of Fear" was a mysterious Russian/Mongolian lama named Dorjief,
who was intriguing with Tsar Nicholas to make Tibet a Russian
satellite----so when the Maharajah of Kashmir and his brother-in-law
had Blavatsky change their venue to Tibet, that made it even more
suspicious. "The Great White Brotherhood" was playing "The Great
Game", which was what the Central Asian shadow war was called.
Fascinating stuff. Talbot Mundy popularized it in his 1930s
pulp-fiction "Jimgrim" adventures; James Bond in the Khyber Pass. Good
stuff! ******
Book references: K. Paul Johnson, *The Masters Revealed.*
Patrick French, *Younghusband.*
Talbot Mundy, *Jimgrim.*
Good Magick!
(Good espionage too....)
Gnome d Plume
Gnome d Plume
******If you were on some other news group besides alt.magick with
this simplistic, no-shades-of-gray psuedo-ethical argument you might
accomplish something with it----but here you are whistling against a
windstorm. Here your argument has no more weight than the naive
assertion that because "The Real King Solomon" didn't write the
grimoires attributed to him, all Solomonic Magick is therefore phoney.
You might get some takers for this foolishness on alt.debunkum, or
alt.cynic, but not here.
One more time:
The Golden Dawn was founded on a very solid
base of carefully reconstructed and synthesized Western Esoteric Lore.
The Cipher (Cypher) Manuscript was a brilliant creation based on
continental Rosicrucian lodge models and an expert synthesis of
European and English occult material. Frederick Hockley had the
largest collection of magical manuscripts outside of the British
Library itself. Kenneth Mackenzie was Hockley's protege and a Masonic
scholar of prodigious learning. The mandatory "Blavatskyistic" glamor
that Westcott created was nothing more than a "Charter Myth." The real
value of the founding instrument is in the work itself.
I suggest you read the Cypher Manuscript and a commentary on
its meaning (unfortunately mine is the only version with such a
commentary, so you have no choice) and learn to appreciate what a
treasure it is.
This solid foundation of esoteric lore is why various Golden
Dawn organizations have more members today than the original G. D. had
before 1900. ******
tracy
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 19:34:32 GMT, Panoptes <pano...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
> ******Although I've never experimented with these methods, I
> understand that a tremendous concentration of energy can be developed
> and transmuted into mystic/magical visionary states in this manner.
> If this is so, we might speculate on whether Sam and Moina Mathers
> "drove each other crazy" by totally, and endlessly, adoring each other
> without sexual consumation. As interesting as this is to speculate on,
> I suspect it is more probable that this was only a contributing
> factor. Mathers was showing signs of meglomania even before the Golden
> Dawn was founded. It is one thing to create a romantic persona and
> "play the role," but when you start believing your own glamor, you are
> heading for trouble. In this sense Crowley was saner than his mentor
> Mathers. A.C. never seemed to take his saint hoods and knighthoods
> that seriously. Of course in my case the family crest does display
> Merovingian golden bees, and the motto is "We Serve the King," so the
> Sacred Blood-Line should be obvious----and Sir Luis Culling was the
> last of the Palladians.......******
Hey I'm directly descended from Charlemagne, does that count?
I don't have a family crest though. I don't know sir luis Culling.
Problem with me is I like to think about the future. Star Trek yeah :)
Tracy
>
> Le Comte de Gnome
Joseph
>
> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:39:36 -0800, "Blue Rajah"
> <danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:3bdc9b3d...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
>
are we then to assume that you, gnome de plume, accept the tom is blue axiom?
i will admit to a residual scepticism, in that the curmudgeon blue seems to me
incompatible with the tom i once new in alt.magick, i remember we had an
exchange with the author of the vassoago stuff and tom was asking for bona
fides, i backed him up and gnome (i think as the author of the vassago stuff)
replied again merely that he had done it with no response to the question
asked merely a re assertion of the previously asserted .....assertions, i
pointed this out to tom privately in e-mali and his response was not only
balanced and sensible but pithy and witty....i miss tom....and i don't think
blue (for all blues admirable qualities) is tom.
Joseph Count de Money.
Tom
"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3bdf8ed5...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:28:30 -0800, "Blue Rajah"
> <danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
>
> >Now don't get all surly. I don't dispute that Westcott may have had
> >romantic motives to concoct that deception. But that's neither here nor
> >there, as far as I'm concerned. Explaining why a person lied doesn't
erase
> >the fact that they lied.
> >
> >There is no functional difference between Westcott's "creating a charter
> >myth" and his telling a lie about having been granted a charter from
some
> >secret lodge in Europe. He intentionally forged letters from a
> >non-existent person to support his authority to create a magical
> >organization. That lie came back to bite him later, when Mathers
revealed
> >his deception.
> >
> >Put whatever spin on it you like, but the fact remains that Westcott,
> >whatever else he might have done, deliberately lied to the entire
> >membership of the Golden Dawn about the authenticity of these letters.
> >
> ******If you were on some other news group besides alt.magick with
> this simplistic, no-shades-of-gray psuedo-ethical argument you might
> accomplish something with it----but here you are whistling against a
> windstorm.
I'm not arguing ethics. It's not a matter of right and wrong. It's a
matter of telling the truth versus telling a lie. Westcott told a lie.
The exposure of that lie had undesirable consequences later. That is not
an arguable point. That's simply what happened.
> Here your argument has no more weight than the naive
> assertion that because "The Real King Solomon" didn't
> write the grimoires attributed to him, all Solomonic Magick
> is therefore phoney.
I don't know why you think that I'm trying to disparage the efficacy of GD
magical operations. The various rituals and mystical teachings of the GD
have nothing at all to do with what I am discussing. I am saying that
magical groups like the GD are built on the highest levels of trust
attainable. To concoct a lie as a justification for beginning an
organization that relies on utter honesty between members is a big mistake,
no matter how much Madame Blavatsky would have disapproved if the truth
were told.
Tom
"tracy" <tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:e0458ec1.01102...@posting.google.com...
>
> Hey I'm directly descended from Charlemagne, does that count?
> I don't have a family crest though. I don't know sir luis Culling.
> Problem with me is I like to think about the future. Star Trek yeah :)
I met Culling briefly. He was a charming and gossipy old fellow that I
found very likeable. Spent more time trying to hit on a teenage girl he'd
spotted than he did talking about magick, but I thought he had his
priorities straight.
She was quite good-looking.
Tom
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bde24a9...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
>
> No, seriously, I think it's great movie script stuff. Why hasn't anyone
> done the movie?
Shelly Winters would make a great Blavatsky.
Jason
> If you were a little more aware in mystical experience, you might write
>otherwise. Timeless
>
> Light. That is ALL.
Many to the One,to the All,to the None, to watching ants carry
uzi's spraying eachother for,Allah. Though I am sad..... to see
ants who are inherently Giants waste time so foolishly.
> Love,
>
> Panoptes
>
>
Jason
"Gnome d Plume"
The books referenced all of your lineage,no doubt. We'll be
sure to mark it the letter of the Law then,Poke.
Jason
"Gnome d Plume"
A good piece to clear this present conversation and point
of trust from one's Superior, can be read in Konx OM Pax,
In 'Ali Sloper and The Fourty LIARS." I think,Poke is Dr.
Waistcoat. KARMA IS A WHORE,huh,Gnome of the
Element of Salamanders ?
Re O酬tat
"Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
> "Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3bdc9b3d...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
> >
> > The Golden Dawn was founded on a very solid
> > base of carefully reconstructed and synthesized Western Esoteric Lore.
> > The Cipher (Cypher) Manuscript was a brilliant creation based on
> > continental Rosicrucian lodge models and an expert synthesis of
> > European and English occult material.
>
> But, for some reason, Westcott felt it couldn't stand on its own and
> invented a fake history for it. This deception later came back to bite
> him.
>
BR, you're deconstructing what was going on and taking the situation out
of its overlapping contemporary and mystical milieu.
The founding of the GD took place at what might be called "the beginning
of the ending of the Piscean age," a time when people looked for leaders
and valued nothing unless you could trace its ancient history. Explorers
were discovering ancient secrets and reinterpreting (usually with a
eurocentric bias) the history of the world.
If the founders of the GD had said, "We're creating a new system based
on a unique and new interpretation of a rag-tag collection of old
material, much of which we have altered to fit our vision," how many
members would they have had? I would suggest that, at that time, the
number would have been close to zero.
This is the same reason that various groups which started over the past
100-150 years set up fantasy scenarios such as the AMORC with their
claim to ancient Egyptian Rosicrucian lineage or the the Great I Am
which evolved (devolved?) into the politically right-wing Church
Universal and Triumphant of E.C. Prophet (perhaps she should change the
spelling of her last name), or some Wiccan groups that try to trace
themselves back to Grop, the Shaman cave-dweller.
This process of channelled masters, secret chiefs, etc., will continue
but lessen as we move more and more into the Aquarian age where the
information will be more important that the personality and more people
will need to be self-actualizing rather than the mindless sheep of major
groups and religions.
[Seen in this light, and a change of subject, the terror attacks of
9/11/01 are also a manifestation of a Piscean-age religion fighting
desperately against the people who, as a group, seem to be moving most
quickly into the Aquarian age. It is not a battle of religions or
cultures, but of aeons.]
> The degree of trust that is necessary to do really good magical work of the
> kind the GD aspired to is very, very high. You are expected to be honest
> with your colleagues, and especially with your superiors. In turn, you
> expect those colleagues and superiors to be honest with you, too. To have
> it suddenly revealed that the leader of the group has been systematically
> lying to all of you from the beginning delivers a mortal wound to the
> group's development, even if the lie is dismissed by some as something
> trivial. Many members of the GD didn't consider a fictional lineage to be
> a trivial matter at all.
Of course, "many" is an undefined term. But it can certainly be said
that some members, upon learning that all was not as described, did
leave the order.
Again, this is, IMO, because their Piscean-age mentalities would not let
them move forward. They could not believe the evidence of their eyes (as
to the efficacy of their work) and instead relied upon the words of
others. If you bake a great loaf of bread and someone claims that your
ancestors did not really bake bread that way, should you stop eating it?
I don't think so. But to those stuck in the Piscean age, of course they
will stop eating.
IMO, far more important than who founded the GD and all this stuff is a
simple question: does the system work? Virtually every person I know of
who has gone through that system seems to think so, and they don't
concern themselves or worry about what happened 125 years ago.
Crowley used to say that people would read some of his books and then
come to him seeking The Master Therion (who would tell them what they
wanted to hear). Instead, they would meet the Demon Crowley (who would
tell them what they needed to hear). People were seeking that ultimate
master (actually, A.C. did make some claims about being the adept of the
Aeon or some such) and Crowley, caught as he was between the ages,
projected the image of the past and presented a reality of the future.
Oh, and a message to Carroll:
Sorry, bub. I'm to busy doing "good magick" to be "poking" around in
history books.
:-)
It would seem I'm just more interested in results than arguing over
things which, in the long run, are nothing but irrelevancies.
Re
tracy
> If you were a little more aware in mystical experience, you might write otherwise. Timeless
>
> Light. That is ALL.
>
> Love,
>
> Panoptes
Excuse Please. Do yo mean me or Jason?
Tracy
Jason
I could learn to better refine my Way by listening to
the flow of your very carefully introspected vision
and clarity. Thank-you for this piece.
"Re OąStat" <us...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:user-EF6B5E.1...@lsnewsr1-30.we.mediaone.net...
Panoptes
tracy wrote:
Jason
>
tracy
Hey I've got a proposal: It's not one or the other (which Tom is not
arguing either), it's both. Both efficient workings/source material
*and* trust
in the people one is working with is important! Without the trust you
might as well do it by yourself. Stay home and just sell the book.
Without the teachings/efficacy the group might as well make some
s'mores. Maybe?
Tracy
Tom
"Re O酬tat" <us...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:user-EF6B5E.1...@lsnewsr1-30.we.mediaone.net...
> In article <e25D7.2131$Kb1.3...@news.uswest.net>,
> "Blue Rajah" <danto...@qwest.net> wrote:
> >
> > But, for some reason, Westcott felt it couldn't stand on its own
> > and invented a fake history for it. This deception later came
> > back to bite him.
>
> BR, you're deconstructing what was going on and taking the
> situation out of its overlapping contemporary and mystical milieu.
If you want to excuse Westcott for having forged those letters and lying
about them to the entire GD membership, feel free to do so.
I don't care why he did it. The fact of the matter is that he did forge
those letters and he did lie and it did come back to bite him.
That's a lesson that should never be forgotten or dismissed as trivial.
Jason
Yeah right, suck ass if you wish, I hold numbers and memory
to all of your souls. The day will come,boy .
> Jason
>
>
> >
>
Jason
lol, in a big way, but does he today realise his mistake ? I should
venture to guess no.
> That's a lesson that should never be forgotten or dismissed as trivial.
I'm sure as long as his soul endures, he'll never forget this thread.
The Saga continues. Shogun or Daimyo?
tra...@pipeline.com
Nah!!! She doesn't have enough hudspah anymore.
Hmm....Joan Collins is too silly. Maybe Liz Taylor?
Bwahahahahaha! She can do that "sparks flying from
the eyes" bit. Blavatsky only wished she could look that
good!
Tracy
tra...@pipeline.com
>
>"Re OąStat" <us...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
I think so too.
tra...@pipeline.com
Signed,
A Peapicker in the Peanut Gallery
Re O酬tat
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I'm not excusing anything.
I'm trying to explain what was done.
And, since at the time the allegations that the documents were false was
unproven, it didn't "bite him" at all.
You seem quite caught up in who they were rather than what they
accomplished.
Re
Re O酬tat
"Jason" <nex...@gulftel.com> wrote:
> Out-spoken,sir. The anithesis to my own brutal style.
> I could learn to better refine my Way by listening to
> the flow of your very carefully introspected vision
> and clarity. Thank-you for this piece.
>
>
LOL!
This is the web.
People here need fire-proof knickers and a roaring mouth...er...fingers.
Note to all: don't take what anyone says about you seriously.
Go past all the crap and get to the concepts and idea of what other have
to say (assuming they DO have something to say). Amid the crap, insults,
and garbage there may be a nugget of gold.
Yer welcome, mate.
Re
>
> "Re O酬tat" <us...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
tra...@pipeline.com
>Now you have it right, and yes, it would make a great movie. Tom
>Schuler is so quick to blame Dr. Westcott for his minor fib about
>Mackenzie's Cypher MS. that he totally ignores this world-class
>mumbo-jumbo going on in India which promoted and financed "The Secret
>Masters" delusion. Why it would make a great movie right now is that
>then (1880s-1890s) Russia and Britain were engaged in a shadow war in
>Kashmir, Afghanistan and Tibet.
Yes doubly so.
> The Brits even invaded Tibet in 1904,
>thinking there were Cossacks up there! (There weren't) The original
>"King of Fear" was a mysterious Russian/Mongolian lama named Dorjief,
>who was intriguing with Tsar Nicholas to make Tibet a Russian
>satellite----so when the Maharajah of Kashmir and his brother-in-law
>had Blavatsky change their venue to Tibet, that made it even more
>suspicious. "The Great White Brotherhood" was playing "The Great
>Game", which was what the Central Asian shadow war was called.
Sheesh.
>Fascinating stuff. Talbot Mundy popularized it in his 1930s
>pulp-fiction "Jimgrim" adventures; James Bond in the Khyber Pass. Good
>stuff! ******
Sure!
>
>Book references: K. Paul Johnson, *The Masters Revealed.*
> Patrick French, *Younghusband.*
> Talbot Mundy, *Jimgrim.*
>Good Magick!
>(Good espionage too....)
umm, thanks!
Tracy
>
>Gnome d Plume
Panoptes
Jason wrote:
Thanks for taking my place as the most obnoxious flaming troll on this
NG for quite sometime.
Love,
Panoptes
Tom
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Tom
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bdea17a...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
> Is he some occult author???
Yes. Culling wrote The Pristine Yi King , A Manual of Sex Magick, and The
Complete Magick Curriculum of the Secret Order G.'.B.'.G.'..
The G.'.B.'.G.'. was an American spin-off of Crowley's that advertised "a
short-cut to initiation".
Cullings writing is kind of sketchy and gossipy, but the guy knew a thing
or two. Poke thinks quite highly of him.
tra...@pipeline.com
Jason
Man, if I can't trust 8=3 who then? When dealing with me
be honest or fuck-off. This formula should be apparent by
now. I gave solution in code apparently you did not understand.
In either acting to impress or mislead, you tried to play me for
a fool, why? I have knowlege to your advancement to Magus.
Do we work together now or do you want to chance it and
try to smell me out in two more lifetimes? Table has now
turned. This is now your Initiation.
> Love,
>
> Panoptes
>
Panoptes
Jason wrote:
Oh, thank you. You mean I finally get a REAL initiation after being
the Herald and First Initiator of H.O.O.R.? Cum with it, Baby!
Love,
Panoptes
Gnome d Plume
******Now why in heaven's name, after such a really good post, which I
heartily support-----right up to the last five childish, petulant and
unnecessary lines-----do you have to spoil it by degenerating into an
immature attack on a colleague who has researched the subject a little
deeper than you have? When you finally grow up, you might amount to
something.******
Gnome
Tom
<tra...@pipeline.com> wrote in message
news:3bdedf6c...@news.lvcablemodem.com...
> Thanks! But can I call you Blue if I want to?
I've been called lots worse.
Gnome d Plume
wrote:
>
>"Re OąStat" <us...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
*******Tom:
We've been patiently trying to instruct you in the history, both
cultural and documentary, relating to this issue. You have totally
ignored it. You apparently have no interest in understanding how
esoteric organizations were founded in the Victorian and Baroque
periods. You have no understanding of even the concept of a "charter
myth." You are like a squawking parrot who repeats over and over:
"Westcott's a liar! Westcott's a liar! Westcott's a liar!"
Actually he wasn't a liar. He was a discreet gentleman and a
loyal Freemason protecting the identity of a brother's widow.
Alexandrina Mackenzie (Soror Cryptonomia) had given him the Cypher
Manuscript that her late husband------who had known Eliphas Levi, had
been initiated into a German Rosicrucian lodge, and was the protege of
the most erudite and talented magician of the 19th century, Frederick
Hockley---- had composed. Westcott initiated her into the G.D. and
protected her identity with a ruse, giving her a pseudonym and moving
her venue to Germany, the way Blavatsky moved the venues of her Sikh
Sant gurus from Kashmir to Tibet. "Fraulein Sprengel" was an absolute
bare minimum device necessary to accomplish the establishment of the
G.D. under those circumstances and in those times (as my insulting,
but otherwise learned colleague Re O'Stat has cogently argued). No
straight forward exposition of this excellent outline could possibly
have worked to establish the Golden Dawn. That you refuse to
understand the cultural and social dynamics of this era, and the
politics of these organizations makes it obvious to me that you are;
as I have so often observed, an enemy of the Art Magical and very much
out of place on this news group. Now if you want to keep squawking
about Dr. Westcott's "bogus" charter myth, go ahead. While you are
at it why not discredit "The murder of Hiram Abiff, the antiquity of
Hermes Trismegistus, and the authenticity of *The Key of Solomon*?
I think you would be wise to drop the subject; especially
in light of the fact that I just got another order for more *Cypher
MS.* books from the lady warriors in Seattle. Obviously most readers
don't agree with you.
Good Magick!
Gnome d Plume
*Secrets of the Golden Dawn Cypher Manuscript* at www.amazon.com
Gnome d Plume
*******Hold on there! I liked old Lou as an interesting character, and
a link to the old, old guard (he knew Parsons and the Pasadena Agape
crowd) but I never said I thought too much of his ideas on sex-magick.
His concept of envisioning one's sex-magick partner as one's HGA
gives me the willies! ******
Gnome
Jason
"Panoptes"
I thought that get your attention and speak
to me like a human being. This is only the tip
of the ice-burg,baby. I love you man.
Peace
Satyr
<Gnome...@aol.com> wrote:
No surprises there.
--
Satyr
Listen to the fools reproach! It is a kingly title!
-Wm. Blake
Tom
"Gnome d Plume" <Gnome...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3be15ab6...@trialnews.peoplepc.com...
>
> We've been patiently trying to instruct you in the history, both
> cultural and documentary, relating to this issue. You have totally
> ignored it.
Apologies do not erase actions. That I don't accept your rationalizations
doesn't mean I ignored them. Westcott lied. The evidence for it is clear.
That Westcott lied because he wouldn't have been able to recruit as many
people with the truth is not an acceptable excuse, in my opinion.
Apparently, you have no problem with telling lies in order to recruit
members.
People should keep that in mind when dealing with you.
> Actually he wasn't a liar.
Are you saying that you know definitively that Westcott did not forge those
letters? That he never told a lie about it?
> "Fraulein Sprengel" was an absolute
> bare minimum device necessary to accomplish the establishment of the
> G.D. under those circumstances and in those times
By "device", you mean "lie". It's a cute trick to use euphemisms to avoid
admitting what was really done. Nixon didn't lie, he "misspoke". It
wasn't a conspiracy, it was a "gentlemen's agreement". It wasn't a lie, it
was a "device".
Westcott lied to recruit members. You are defending this tactic as
"necessary" (I say it wasn't, but there's no persuading you on that) and
then claiming it's not really a lie because it was done for a good cause.
> That you refuse to
> understand the cultural and social dynamics of this era, and
> the politics of these organizations makes it obvious to me
> that you are; as I have so often observed, an enemy of the
> Art Magical and very much out of place on this news group.
Oh, now don't try to ride that dead horse again, Poke. It always makes you
look like a complete idiot.
It is not a prerequisite for posting to this newsgroup that one must agree
with you.
You're not the fucking moderator, you pretentious tinpot.
Tom
> >>
> *******Hold on there! I liked old Lou as an interesting character, and
> a link to the old, old guard (he knew Parsons and the Pasadena Agape
> crowd) but I never said I thought too much of his ideas on sex-magick.
> His concept of envisioning one's sex-magick partner as one's HGA
> gives me the willies! ******
I don't know why that should bother someone who regularly envisions aspects
of his own mind in a dark mirror.
Re O酬tat
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
If you're going to try and quote people, you should at least get it
right and name your source. The actual quote is:
"Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it."
And it is attributed to George Santayana
However, quoting words without understanding their meaning, IMO, is not
a very good idea. Or do you really mean to imply that by lying, the
founders of the GD started an organization which would strongly
influence and direct spirituality and occultism for at least the next
125 years? If so, then by your implication people trying to start orders
SHOULD lie to their members.
I would add another quotation:
"History is not what you thought. It is what you can remember. All other
history defeats itself. This is attributed to Mikhail Bakunin.
All you seem to remember is how the GD may have started instead of what
they, and their progeny, achieved.
I would refute Santayana. People who do not remember history are not
condemned to repeat it. Rather people who do not understand history in
the context of its times are condemned to repeat it.
Re
Re O酬tat
Gnome...@aol.com (Gnome d Plume) wrote:
> >Oh, and a message to Carroll:
> >Sorry, bub. I'm to busy doing "good magick" to be "poking" around in
> >history books.
> >:-)
> >
> >It would seem I'm just more interested in results than arguing over
> >things which, in the long run, are nothing but irrelevancies.
> >
> >Re
>
> ******Now why in heaven's name, after such a really good post, which I
> heartily support-----right up to the last five childish, petulant and
> unnecessary lines-----do you have to spoil it by degenerating into an
> immature attack on a colleague who has researched the subject a little
> deeper than you have? When you finally grow up, you might amount to
> something.******
>
> Gnome
I was responding to your attack on me in another post and didn't want to
waste bandwidth with a reply in a separate post.
When will you learn that as long as you keep attacking others that they
will respond in kind?
You are still a little boy trying to be a man and are upset than ANYONE
might dare to have a different opinion than you. Adults learn that
people can have different ideas and just be different...not wrong.
Re
Tom
> In article <jCpD7.866$IH2.2...@news.uswest.net>,
> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
>
> If you're going to try and quote people, you should at least get it
> right and name your source.
Did you see any quotation marks? You should stop assuming so much.
> Or do you really mean to imply that by lying, the
> founders of the GD started an organization which would strongly
> influence and direct spirituality and occultism for at least the next
> 125 years?
Read what I wrote. It was clear enough. You're trying to distort it so
that you can battle with a straw man.
Do you approve of lying as a means of recruiting members in a magical
organizaton? Is that how your group operates?
> If so, then by your implication people trying to start orders
> SHOULD lie to their members.
Do you approve of lying as a means of recruitment?
> All you seem to remember is how the GD may have started instead
> of what they, and their progeny, achieved.
What do you know about "all" I remember? You don't have access to the
inside of my head, you arrogant ass. All you actually know about me is
what I write in this newsgroup. The rest of what you think you know is
what you've made up all on your own.
Tom
>
> When will you learn that as long as you keep attacking others
> that they will respond in kind?
Probably as soon as -you- learn it.
> You are still a little boy trying to be a man and are upset than
> ANYONE might dare to have a different opinion than you.
> Adults learn that people can have different ideas and just be
> different...not wrong.
Do you think this insult won't provoke a return in kind? Is that what
you're after?
If not, just what is your goal in this exchange?