Real Tarots
nagasiva
???:
>> The fact that 'Les Tarots D'Etteilla' are not in fact a tarot
they've got trumps. i.e. they're Cards With Trumps, after all.
>> does not change the fact they woiuld've been available to
>> Waite during his studies.
Al Smith:
> Yes, that's true. Some German card decks also had individual
> pictures on the numbered cards.
Sola Busca did, which is apparently by what Smith/Waite were
inspired.
> Still, it was very clever of Waite
> to settle on a single image for each numbered card.
> It insured the success of his Tarot.
Kaplan helped some.
> It was the first occult or esoteric Tarot (real Tarot)
Tarot was REAL as soon as the game was created, though
its origins seem a mix of ornamentation/art and gaming.
Tarot continued being REAL as its gaming elements were
used as part of religious or divinatory activities,
though its reality was split into a new category:
playing cards used for divinatory purposes.
Tarot continued to be REAL as decks were made for
occult usage and its details were enlarged, though
its reality was split into a new category: oracles.
> to have pictures on the numbered suit cards.
how many other occult Tarots did so? lots of Theme Decks
after the Smith-Waite do that, not all modern Tarots.
nagasiva
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Al Smith
So, aside from the carping, what's your contribution?
the 2nd coming of christ
>So, aside from the carping, what's your contribution?
are you the group owner that you should concern yourself with every single
post whether it contributes something or not, or what...
--
"Whoever saw the destruction in Gush Katif & northern Shomron, can't pray for Sharon's recovery." -- Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu
Joseph Littleshoes
I suppose on an abstract level i don't mind pictorial pips, but in
reality, even IF the Waite deck were influenced by the Sola Busca what
is the rational behind those images?
Even when people go so far as to use the "cabalistic" rational for
images on the small cards its open to interpretation in ways simple
numbers are not.
The Majors are more definitive in their imagery and while open to
artistic interpretation, are more standard than the pips, though i
personally regret that the mad man became the fool and the juggler the
magus and the Papess the priestess, i have no difficulty with turning
the Pope into the Hierophant though i doubt there is any direct
connection with the Elysian mysteries. I prefer Crowley's Devil image
over the Watie version and Crowley's Strength (Lust) over Waites, though
Waites is more traditional. Iirc the Visconti Chariot is driven by a
female in formal clothing and the chariot itself is more ornamental,
that particular version of the chariot always reminds me of the
archetypal "valley girl" and the new car her daddy has bought her.
--
JL
nagasiva
Al Smith:
>>>Yes, that's true. Some German card decks also had individual
>>>pictures on the numbered cards.
nagasiva:
>> Sola Busca did, which is apparently by what Smith/Waite were
>> inspired.
>>>Still, it was very clever of Waite
>>>to settle on a single image for each numbered card.
>>>It insured the success of his Tarot.
>>>It was the first occult or esoteric Tarot (real Tarot)
>>>to have pictures on the numbered suit cards.
>> how many other occult Tarots did so? lots of Theme Decks
>> after the Smith-Waite do that, not all modern Tarots.
Joseph Littleshoes <jpst...@isp.com>:
>I suppose on an abstract level i don't mind pictorial pips,
I trace it straight to Lenormand and others alike to the
fortune-telling decks, by which Alliette was reflecting.
the medium zone between gaming scenes (as in Tarock) and
occult significance is skated on by burgeoning occultists,
fomenting novel genius in the hope of locking into mind.
>but in reality, even IF the Waite deck were influenced
>by the Sola Busca what is the rational behind those images?
Waite explains that in his PKT, i think.
association schema are amusing, as we have been discussing
in TarotL as regards "Faces/Decans" and Agrippan sourcing.
I have somewhat analyzed the options elsewhere for the
Plebeian deck:
1-> 40 resolves to
1=>10 x 4 (40)
2=>10 x 4 (36) + 1 x 4 (1s)
2=>09 x 4 (32) + 2 x 4 (1s, 10s)
>Even when people go so far as to use the "cabalistic"
>[rationale] for images on the small cards its open to
>interpretation in ways simple numbers are not.
4 x 10 doesn't make for an exciting array unless you
somehow remove 4 and make it 36, at which point it has
far more character and mutability for comparison.
36 factors into 2 3 4 6 9 12 18
>The Majors are more definitive in their imagery
(not aiming this at you, Joseph)
this [the 'definitive' quality of gaming Tarot] is
what the cement-mixers of Tarotland hope to muck up
occult tarotic constructions forever using. they are
no more 'definitive' than fortune-telling valences
are for any particular symbol in these English-
language divinatory arts, from Euchre decks
to anchors inside your cup for tassiography.
>and while open to artistic interpretation,
all divinatory arrays are so open.
>are more standard than the pips,
only if one has a hankering for a certain
tradition. there are so many variations on
the Triumph theme by this point that the
reason to leave any single behind might
well be arbitrary or based on personal
combination to the technology created.
>though i personally regret that the mad man
>became the fool and the juggler the magus
>and the Papess the priestess,
return them to the rightful place in your
Thothbook.
>i have no difficulty with turning the Pope
>into the Hierophant though i doubt there
>is any direct connection with the Elysian
>mysteries.
correct, that was a romance by occultists.
>I prefer Crowley's Devil image
a capricornian cock and balls featuring
little humunculi struggling to manifest?
it's exciting and masculine, scapegoaty.
>over the [Waite] version
Edenic or Hellish devilled/constrained/slave
to matter by the great Sulphur King or the
Lord of This World?
>and Crowley's Strength (Lust)
the Whore of Babalon, Mother of Iniquities
from the Patmos Shroomvision riding sly on
her therionic mount? raising her cup of
the Blood of the Saints to slake her thirst?
>over Waites, though Waites is more traditional.
that lion thing has some staying power. its
relation to Leo seems more sure than some
drunken vampire harnessing a liturgical monster.
>Iirc the Visconti Chariot is driven by a
>female in formal clothing and the chariot
>itself is more ornamental, that particular
>version of the chariot always reminds me
>of the archetypal "valley girl" and the
>new car her daddy has bought her.
the planet chariots and Triumphs proper
may be the inspiration for that sphiinx job.