Playing Cards, Occult Tarot Meanings, Moon
nagasiva
Al Smith <inv...@address.com>:
>>> > High Priestess-....
>The Priestess is the feminine aspect of religion -- its secret,
>inner aspect, its quiet strength, its wisdom, its silence.
>>> > Empress-....
>Both the Priestess and the Empress are pregnant. Their swollen
>bellies (which are obvious in the Marseilles cards) indicate
>something nurtured within that is about to come forth.
I think it is important to admit that whenever we begin to
talk about a thing being 'especially true or obvious' in
the Tarot de Marseilles that we pay attention to the actual
history of the cards and to admit that there are mundane
reasons for playing cards having these kinds of features.
while it may suffice for and even serve occult interests
to overlay descriptions of Tarots like the Marseilles
for inspiration and enjoyment, being realistic, and honest,
we must also explain that the artists of the deck were very
likely men, and the conventions of these notions as they
were presented within this playing card deck may have other
dimensions that do not really fit into an occult context.
are they really pregnant or do they have the paunch that is
conventional for priestesses and empresses accustomed as
they probably would be to luxury and a somewhat sedantary
existence and social role? if they are actually pregant,
is this because they are indicating "something nurtured
within that is about to come forth"? or is it more likely
that the men who painted them saw women as vessels for
their future progeny and sought to represent them in a
manner which was valuable to them (about to bear a son)?
I am of course saying nothing of the truly occult decks
which have come about in modern times in which these
figures may or may not have retained this pregnant
quality (pun intended), but i do enjoy debating the
what seems to me very badly supported notion that the
Tarot de Marseilles is more than a playing card deck
later turned into a cartomantic tool, complete with
an appended pedigree of ancient and accepted arcanitude.
it is easy and fun to take games and lend to them a
depth and significance that they never actually had,
project backwards upon them an august past, and thence
pretend (and put over on others) a romance serving what
may seem laudable ends. however, once one begins to
make pronouncements on the 'true order of trumps' we
begin a journey down a slippery slope which playing card
decks such as the TdM will never help us to negotiate.
for example:
>The Chariot is out of place in the sequence of trumps.
>The card Temperance should come here, and Strength
>should fall in the usual place of Temperance.
this is false unless we're talking about a specific
occult series (Golden Dawn). the Spanish tradition
doesn't have this series, nor does the Alliette
cartomantic deck, and they are not "wrong" due to this.
>Why is Fortitude a woman? Because true strength is
>spiritual, not physical.
in which case why is the Empress female? she is all
rounded venusian comfort and earthly indulgence.
>> XII = The Hanged Man....
>The most mysterious of all the Tarot cards. It is
>indeed a card of sacrifice, but the sacrifice is
>not voluntary. ....
formerly known as The Traitor.
>> *The Moon....
>The most evil of the trumps, there is nothing good
>about this card....
I'll try to come up with some things. I agree with you
that it has a very bad reputation, but i'm enough of a
lover of polarity (over dualism) to try to come up with
it and construct it if need be out of visualization.
--------------------------------------------
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Joseph Littleshoes
>>
>>The most evil of the trumps, there is nothing good
>>about this card....
>
>
> I'll try to come up with some things. I agree with you
> that it has a very bad reputation, but i'm enough of a
> lover of polarity (over dualism) to try to come up with
> it and construct it if need be out of visualization.
>
*Chuckle*
Cut the borders off the Thoth deck and compare the 18th & 19th Trump,
there is a subtle symbolism i find particularly enchanting.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
"The two main political parties ruled alternately as if by tacit
agreement. Politically they were practically indistinguishable (one
perhaps a shade more liberal) but in both camps supporters were more
swayed by personalities than by issues. Both parties were heavily
dependent on the large industrial conglomerates. Corruption was
widespread, the conglomerates dictated economic policy, and with few
outstanding exceptions, politicians' reputations were low."
Nicole
>
> - Show quoted text -
Al,
I don't think you can really dispute what Mary Cain said about The
Chariot card, it was a fully comprehensive and insightful series of
posts that you should be gracious enough to learn from instead of
acting like it's a load of rot, that just makes you look disgruntled.
Al Smith
>> >bellies (which are obvious in the Marseilles cards) indicate
>> >something nurtured within that is about to come forth.
>
> I think it is important to admit that whenever we begin to
> talk about a thing being 'especially true or obvious' in
> the Tarot de Marseilles that we pay attention to the actual
> history of the cards and to admit that there are mundane
> reasons for playing cards having these kinds of features.
>
> while it may suffice for and even serve occult interests
> to overlay descriptions of Tarots like the Marseilles
> for inspiration and enjoyment, being realistic, and honest,
> we must also explain that the artists of the deck were very
> likely men, and the conventions of these notions as they
> were presented within this playing card deck may have other
> dimensions that do not really fit into an occult context.
>
> are they really pregnant or do they have the paunch that is
> conventional for priestesses and empresses accustomed as
> they probably would be to luxury and a somewhat sedantary
> existence and social role? if they are actually pregant,
> is this because they are indicating "something nurtured
> within that is about to come forth"? or is it more likely
> that the men who painted them saw women as vessels for
> their future progeny and sought to represent them in a
> manner which was valuable to them (about to bear a son)?
The Priestess was originally the Female Pope, a reference to the
legend of Pope Joan. If you know her legend, you know that she was a
woman who fell in love with a monk, followed him to Rome to be with
him, disguising herself as a monk, quickly rose through the ranks of
the Church because of her intelligence and administrative skills,
and was crowned Pope. Just as she was receiving her papal crown in a
public square, her water broke and she began to give birth to her
child, engendered on her by her lover. Oops. Must have been an
embarrassing moment for all concerned. That's why I say the
Priestess in the Marseilles deck is obviously pregnant. She is the
Papess, the Female Pope.
The pregnancy of the Empress is less definite, although her belly
indicates strongly that she is with child. But consider the meaning
of the Empress -- she is the symbol of new life and new growth, of
the fertility of the earth. What better way to express her fertility
than to show her pregnant, which in my opinion, is what was done in
the Marseilles deck. Sure, you can argue against this, but why?
Doesn't it make sense for her to be pregnant?
-Al-
Al Smith
>
> I don't think you can really dispute what Mary Cain said about The
> Chariot card, it was a fully comprehensive and insightful series of
> posts that you should be gracious enough to learn from instead of
> acting like it's a load of rot, that just makes you look disgruntled.
I didn't see anything posted in contradiction to my comments on the
Chariot that made any sense to me. Sorry, that's the way it is. What
am I supposed to do, pretend that I was proven incorrect when I was
not? I stand by everything I wrote. I don't mind people disagreeing
with my points of view, but I'm not going to pretend that they made
any sense when they did not.
-Al-
mary cain
"Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@isp.com> wrote in message
news:4856242...@isp.com...
> nagasiva wrote:
>> hi Al!
>>
>> Al Smith <inv...@address.com>:
>>>>*The Moon....
>>>
>>>The most evil of the trumps, there is nothing good about this card....
>>
>>
>> I'll try to come up with some things. I agree with you
>> that it has a very bad reputation, but i'm enough of a
>> lover of polarity (over dualism) to try to come up with
>> it and construct it if need be out of visualization.
>>
>> yronwode
>
> *Chuckle*
>
> Cut the borders off the Thoth deck and compare the 18th & 19th Trump,
> there is a subtle symbolism i find particularly enchanting.
> --
**I'm looking but I don't see...could you please elaborate?
TIA
> Joseph Littleshoes
KC
mary cain
"Al Smith" <inv...@address.com> wrote in message
news:FAx5k.1848$L03.1476@edtnps92...
>> Al,
>>
>> I don't think you can really dispute what Mary Cain said about The
>> Chariot card, it was a fully comprehensive and insightful series of
>> posts that you should be gracious enough to learn from instead of
>> acting like it's a load of rot, that just makes you look disgruntled.
**That was a very nice compliment and I thank you very much, Nicole.
> I didn't see anything posted in contradiction to my comments on the
> Chariot that made any sense to me. Sorry, that's the way it is. What am I
> supposed to do, pretend that I was proven incorrect when I was not? I
> stand by everything I wrote. I don't mind people disagreeing with my
> points of view, but I'm not going to pretend that they made any sense when
> they did not.
>
**Isn't that like an 8 of swords? I guess we all see from our individual
perspectives and don't really see from the other's eyes. I, personally,
don't see how you can make that statement. I thought I had given a whole
lot of counter-point and now some others have added even more.
I love tenacity, I just don't see it as having a platform in this instance.
Your counter about the Priestess seems a lot more solid.
KC
> -Al-
Nicole
> "Al Smith" <inva...@address.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would disagree with The Priestess being 'more pregnant' than The
Empress. The Priestess is ultra feminine but in an introverted, under
ripe way. Her feminine dominions are virgin and elderly lady. The
Empress however reminds me of Christina Aguilera as she is presently,
passionate and full bodied, proud and self-assured.
mary cain
"Nicole" <paper...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9079f5a0-a789-417f...@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
**I see your point and don't disagree but he did make a good point about the
Popess and then there is Joan of Arc (by some accounts) and even Mary,
mother of Jesus, to consider. There are other examples that don't come
readily to mind.
I would agree with you that the Empress is much more fertile or that
fertility is far more pronounced and a part of the over-all character.
I agree with your identity of the Priestess with the Nun (as represented in
history rather than just the current Catholic interpretation).
KC
Al Smith
> Empress. The Priestess is ultra feminine but in an introverted, under
> ripe way. Her feminine dominions are virgin and elderly lady. The
> Empress however reminds me of Christina Aguilera as she is presently,
> passionate and full bodied, proud and self-assured.
Wow. The Priestess -- Christina Aguilera. I'll have to wrap my mind
around that one. But I'll never be able to wash out the image.
-Al-