Khaos Curse Evaluation
l89kk
"furby" <Wook...@gmail.com>:
>Two months ago, I had an argument with a girlfriend. ...
> ...Needless to say, we broke up.
> But the next morning, she called me and told me that
> she had placed a curse on me
did she tell you what she did to effect this curse?
>- if I ever shave or trim my facial hair, then I will be
>impotent the rest of my life.
right, so we know the supposed effects. we could now
begin to try to construct such a curse here and see
if anything like that was delivered unto you.
I'll try to remember to p-ost that as a response
here (a Chaos Magick curse of this type).
>I knew she was into what her friends referred to
>as "Chaos Magic". ...
which means nothing at all about her.
> ...her friends ...said that as far as they knew she
>could very well have done something like that.
like what, precisely? *said* she placed a curse?
Chaos magicians aren't restrained from cursing.
do you know if she is a *good* chaos magician?
that may be more important long-term.
> ...possible that her curse is real
yes.
> or if it would be safe to shave it off.
do you know if she has ever done any other spells?
you should find out from your friends, if you are
not already convinced by the other posts in this
thread to take a different course, whether she has
ever cast spells before and what their results
were. if you don't know, and she was your
girlfriend, then it is unlikely she had done
much in the magic department.
but then again, you didn't even know she was
a chaos magician? either she just started (no
threat) or she was so clever you never figured
out her true power.
> ...I don't want to take a chance...
your first order of business should be to
determine whether you want to shave off the
beard. if you don't then there is no reason
to figure it out except for future options.
taking a chance is something that Chaos
Magick works with, yes.
eax5267
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Tom
"l89kk" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
news:459b7a14$0$80054$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> aeonicdate x! vulgardate 50070103 Happy Lunatix! !
>
> "furby" <Wook...@gmail.com>:
>>Two months ago, I had an argument with a girlfriend. ...
>> ...Needless to say, we broke up.
>> But the next morning, she called me and told me that
>> she had placed a curse on me
>
> did she tell you what she did to effect this curse?
Who would do a silly thing like that? That's like handing out crib sheets
listing all your tells to your fellow poker players before the game. It's
monumentally stupid.
Unless the details of the operation are part of the mind-fuck, there is
absolutely no good reason to tell one's victim anything about how you
performed the curse and plenty of bad reasons.
nagasiva
>nagasiva wrote:
>>>furby wrote:
>>>> Fast forward 2 months and I have a really annoying "Grizzly Adams"
>>>> beard developing.
>>
>> "Absorbed" <purestd...@hotmail.com>:
>>> I'd recommend using freshly crushed mustard seeds and chilli seeds
>>> mixed with your shaving foam. That should dispel any curse; it's a
>>> common formula.
>>
>> that's liable to burn pretty badly.
>
> The man wants to dispel a curse, not cure a simple cold.
then why are you using cursing herbs? red pepers and mustard
are fairly standard cursing materials. your recommendation
> This is serious business.
could you explain why you're using these items for curse-removal,
where you got the notion that red peppers and mustard seeds
(black? brown? white?) remove curses, etc.?
> Furby, since this curse threatens impotency, I'd also
> recommend shaving off all pubic hair using the same
> mixture, but for God's sake be careful.
I'd recommend more research rather than following this
person's advice. good luck. cleansing herbs like Hyssop
and other remedials would be more commonly employed. it
sounds like you were looking for a confirmation that it
was nothing to worry about and didn't have a plan to
cut off your hair anyways.
nagasiva
x742de
>"l89kk" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
>>> Two months ago, I had an argument with a girlfriend. ...
>>> ...Needless to say, we broke up.
>>> But the next morning, she called me and told me that
>>> she had placed a curse on me
>>
>> did she tell you what she did to effect this curse?
>
> Who would do a silly thing like that?
kChaos Magicians
> That's like handing out crib sheets listing all your
> tells to your fellow poker players before the game.
no it is not like that at all. if one's victim is a
non-magic-user, and unlikely to do anything in
response to protect themsleves from the effects
because they "don't believe" as some have advised
in this newsgroup, it may be a helpful confirmation
of having cast the spell in fact.
> It's monumentally stupid.
depends, it could be if one tells the wrong person.
if the person is just going to go to someplace like
USENET and ask what to do about it (getting hyper-
rational responses about 'what you don't believe in
cannot hurt you', then it may be somewhat arch.
> Unless the details of the operation are part of
> the mind-fuck,
that's one realistic possibility, yes.
> there is absolutely no good reason to tell one's
> victim anything about how you performed the curse
> and plenty of bad reasons.
you're overlooking the part about how she told him
that she had cast the curse, directly. that isn't
standard spellcasting either, and the fact that
she is a Chaos mage makes anything possible.
my interest was in discovering as much IMPORTANT
information as i could and asking for it is the
best way to obtain anything substantive. merely
concluding without all the data that 'sure it is
safe' (because curses don't work, or whatever non-
explanation wasn't offered to us) is nonsensical,
and asking questions such as i have begun to do
is the responsible way to evaluate spellcasting
and the likelihood of a curse's effectiveness.
more information will be necessary via usenet,
and all that has been put forward so far are
hints and claims without details.
rather than merely criticize what i am asking,
you should be asking more questions of the person
who started the thread if you want to provide a
valuable magical reference service to those who
write to this newsgroup, rather than just promote
your own perspective of paltry information and
negation of what you don't seem to understand.
jubalcraine
Tom
"x742de" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
news:459bed7e$0$80117$742e...@news.sonic.net...
> "Tom" <dantoPAYAT...@comcast.net>:
>>"l89kk" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
>>> "furby" <Wook...@gmail.com>:
>
>>>> Two months ago, I had an argument with a girlfriend. ...
>>>> ...Needless to say, we broke up.
>>>> But the next morning, she called me and told me that
>>>> she had placed a curse on me
>>>
>>> did she tell you what she did to effect this curse?
>>
>> Who would do a silly thing like that?
>
> kChaos Magicians
OK, you've got a point. There is little silliness that will not be
practiced by "chaos magicians".
>> That's like handing out crib sheets listing all your
>> tells to your fellow poker players before the game.
>
> no it is not like that at all. if one's victim is a
> non-magic-user, and unlikely to do anything in
> response to protect themsleves from the effects
> because they "don't believe" as some have advised
> in this newsgroup, it may be a helpful confirmation
> of having cast the spell in fact.
Helpful to whom? The victim? That seems pretty silly. It's playing to
lose.
As for the advice to simply "don't believe it", that's all well and good if
you can explain how the querent can reliably stop believing in something
that they already know is completely irrational. Psychtherapists all over
the world would love to have a technique like that.
Soror
foam came off as sarcasm to me while I was reading it. Imagine how that
would feel on a freshly shaven face? (Or as Absorbed suggested later, his
lower junk?)
I expect his second post was in the spirit of that same humor. I doubt he
was being serious at all.
-Soror
Absorbed
Soror wrote:
> I doubt he
> was being serious at all.
But perhaps Furby will seriously want to know where to buy some
cleansing herbs like Hyssop and other remedials. Could someone
recommend a reputable establishment where one could buy such items?
I am sure nagasiva is aware of my sarcasm.
Hy_biscus
> Nagasiva, the suggestion to use mustard seed and chili seeds in his shaving
> foam came off as sarcasm to me while I was reading it. Imagine how that
> would feel on a freshly shaven face? (Or as Absorbed suggested later, his
> lower junk?)
>
> I expect his second post was in the spirit of that same humor. I doubt he
> was being serious at all.
It would certainly make you feel cleaned of the spell :P
wezszp7hol
"Tom" <dantoPAYAT...@comcast.net>:
# ...There is little silliness that will not be
# practiced by "chaos magicians".
whatever random sig i was using (l89kk):
#> ...if one's victim is a non-magic-user, and unlikely
#> to do anything in response to protect themsleves
#> from the effects because they "don't believe" as
#> some have advised in this newsgroup, it may be a
#> helpful confirmation of having cast the spell in fact.
#
# Helpful to whom? The victim?
prospective. he wanted to know if we thought that she
might in fact have performed such a curse and what the
likelihood was that he was in danger of losing his
libido due to shaving off his beard in the middle of
the curse, as it were.
shaving off a beard might be humourously related
to firing your stand-in wife who kept you from
a reputation of being gay. chaos mages should be
regarded with some seriousness. some of the most
interesting and active magicians that i've
known were HChaoyotes.
# That seems pretty silly. It's playing to lose.
not to the haughty and those intimidating others
who are their full lessors. I am imagining that
this girl happened into a Chayoat encleave during
a full-on heat she's having of anger, so she's
gonna take it out on him for both practice
thrills and because he deserves it. her motive
seems straightforward. phoning him is one way
of engaging him without ever having to see
him again and he won't have recorded it,
unlike email or some public text-swap.
you're completely correct this would be
playing to lose if one were in a real match
of wits, skill, and power with an equal.
he's asking usenet. he can't be a Magus. ;)
aksab63sza
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--------------------------------------------
Hy_biscus
> Nagasiva, the suggestion to use mustard seed and chili seeds in his shaving
> foam came off as sarcasm to me while I was reading it. Imagine how that
> would feel on a freshly shaven face? (Or as Absorbed suggested later, his
> lower junk?)
>
> I expect his second post was in the spirit of that same humor. I doubt he
> was being serious at all.
You would feel burned or like you had cursed yourself. oooh oooh oooh.
Tom
"wezszp7hol" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
news:459f1420$0$80069$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>
> shaving off a beard might be humourously related
> to firing your stand-in wife who kept you from
> a reputation of being gay.
This is a pretty loose association.
> chaos mages should be
> regarded with some seriousness. some of the most
> interesting and active magicians that i've
> known were HChaoyotes.
This kind of word coinage is one reason why it is so hard to take anybody
calling himself or herself a "chaos magician" seriously.
> # That seems pretty silly. It's playing to lose.
>
> not to the haughty and those intimidating others
> who are their full lessors.
And another example of why they're so hard to take seriously. That sort of
puffery is simply silly.
> I am imagining that
> this girl happened into a Chayoat encleave during
> a full-on heat she's having of anger, so she's
> gonna take it out on him for both practice
> thrills and because he deserves it.
You are imagining. That much is certain. The rest is questionable.
> you're completely correct this would be
> playing to lose if one were in a real match
> of wits, skill, and power with an equal.
Actually, from my perspective, it seems to be a match of lackwits. Nobody
wins. Everybody loses.
Absorbed
wezszp7hol wrote:
> some of the most
> interesting and active magicians that i've
> known were HChaoyotes.
Are you sure that's not DonChaoyotes? It seems more suitable.
Bassos
"wezszp7hol" <yronwode.com@nagasiva> wrote in message
news:459f1420$0$80069$742e...@news.sonic.net...
>>>>> "furby" <Wook...@gmail.com>:
>
> chaos mages should be regarded with some seriousness.
Heh.
No they should not.
Seriousness is one's undoing.
> some of the most interesting and active magicians that i've
> known were HChaoyotes.
Do tell.
catherine yronwode
A's sarcasm is a waste of time.
Hyssop, recommended in the Bible for removal of sins, and Rue, used by
Italians and other Europeans for removal of curses, are well know
spiritual herbs that can be found for sale all over the iternet from a
variety of magical supply shops. Lemon Grass, an Asian herb used for the
same purpose, can be found in spiritual shops as well as in some Asian
grocery stores, as it is used in South Asian cookery. Syrian Rue
(Aspand), used by Iranians and other Middle Eastern folks for removal of
the evil eye and other cursed conditions can be found in sopiritual
supply shops and also in Middle Eastern grocery stores. In a pinch, you
can also use pine resin, burned as an incense -- it's free, if you have
pine trees around.
Good luck.
cat yronwode
Tom
"catherine yronwode" <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote in message
news:45C14981...@herb-magic.com...
>
> Hyssop, recommended in the Bible for removal of sins, and Rue, used by
> Italians and other Europeans for removal of curses, are well know
> spiritual herbs that can be found for sale all over the iternet from a
> variety of magical supply shops.
Something to note is that the biblical hyssop is not the herb known as
"common hyssop", hyssopus officinalis. That plant was unknown in the Sinai
at the time the Book of Psalms was written. Rather, the hyssop of the bible
is believed by scholars to have been origanum maru, also known as Syrian
oregano.
Another interesting tidbit of lore is that dittany of Crete, origanum
dictamnus, used in ceremonies of evocation, is also in the oregano genus.
catherine yronwode
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote in message
> news:45C14981...@herb-magic.com...
> >
> > Hyssop, recommended in the Bible for removal of sins, and Rue, used by
> > Italians and other Europeans for removal of curses, are well know
> > spiritual herbs that can be found for sale all over the iternet from a
> > variety of magical supply shops.
>
> Something to note is that the biblical hyssop is not the herb known as
> "common hyssop", hyssopus officinalis. That plant was unknown in the Sinai
> at the time the Book of Psalms was written. Rather, the hyssop of the bible
> is believed by scholars to have been origanum maru, also known as Syrian
> oregano.
>
> Another interesting tidbit of lore is that dittany of Crete, origanum
> dictamnus, used in ceremonies of evocation, is also in the oregano genus.
True enough, and along these same lines, what European mages call Rue
(Ruta graveolens) and consider a cleansing and protective herb is
probably a local substitution for Aspand / Esphand / Harmal (Perganum
harmala), which is known to Europeans as Syrian Rue.
Aspand has a multi-millennia-old use in Middle Eastern magic and
medicine dating back at least to early Zoroastrian days. It contains MAO
inhibitors and is decidedly psychoactive, a mood-lifter. European Rue is
merely a leaf-look-alike with no psychoactive properties.
Interestingly, in our Euro-centric language stylings, the earlier-used
plant is tagged with the modifying adjective "Syrian" as if it were a
substitute for "real" Rue, but the oppositie seems to be the case --
European Rue was given the transferred protective magical symbolism of
Aspand because its leaves looks like those of Aspand.
Prior to the development of the Linnean system of botany,
leaf-look-alikes were often confused with genetic relatives.
cat yronwode
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html
Hoodoo Root and Herb Magic
Tom
>
> Interestingly, in our Euro-centric language stylings, the earlier-used
> plant is tagged with the modifying adjective "Syrian" as if it were a
> substitute for "real" Rue, but the oppositie seems to be the case --
> European Rue was given the transferred protective magical symbolism of
> Aspand because its leaves looks like those of Aspand.
>
> Prior to the development of the Linnean system of botany,
> leaf-look-alikes were often confused with genetic relatives.
Not to mention the Law of Similarities. Mandrake, for another example, owes
a great deal of its magical properties to the fact that the root often
resembles the human form.
Joseph Littleshoes
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote in message
> news:45C388B6...@herb-magic.com...
>
>>Interestingly, in our Euro-centric language stylings, the earlier-used
>>plant is tagged with the modifying adjective "Syrian" as if it were a
>>substitute for "real" Rue, but the oppositie seems to be the case --
>>European Rue was given the transferred protective magical symbolism of
>>Aspand because its leaves looks like those of Aspand.
>>
>>Prior to the development of the Linnean system of botany,
>>leaf-look-alikes were often confused with genetic relatives.
>
>
> Not to mention the Law of Similarities. Mandrake, for another example, owes
> a great deal of its magical properties to the fact that the root often
> resembles the human form.
But..getting back to "arithmancy"....
--
Joe L
Joseph Littleshoes
> Tom wrote:
>
>> "catherine yronwode" <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote in message
>> news:45C388B6...@herb-magic.com...
>>
>>> Interestingly, in our Euro-centric language stylings, the earlier-used
>>> plant is tagged with the modifying adjective "Syrian" as if it were a
>>> substitute for "real" Rue, but the oppositie seems to be the case --
>>> European Rue was given the transferred protective magical symbolism of
>>> Aspand because its leaves looks like those of Aspand.
>>>
>>> Prior to the development of the Linnean system of botany,
>>> leaf-look-alikes were often confused with genetic relatives.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not to mention the Law of Similarities. Mandrake, for another
>> example, owes a great deal of its magical properties to the fact that
>> the root often resembles the human form.
>
>
> But..getting back to "arithmancy"....
> --
> Joe L
DE ARTE KABBALISTICA
Do thou study most constantly in the Art of the Holy Qabalah.
Know that herein the Relations between Numbers, though they be mighty
in Power and prodigal of Knowledge, are but lesser Things. For the
Work is to reduce all other conceptions to these of Number, because
thus thou wilt lay bare the very Structure of thy Mind, whose rule is
Necessity rather than Prejudice. Not until the Universe is thus laid
naked before thee canst thou truly anatomize it. The Tendencies of thy
Mind lie deeper far than any Thought, for they are the Conditions and
the Laws of Thought; and it is these that thou must bring to Nought.
This Way is most sure; most sacred; and the Enemies thereof most
awful, most sublime. It is for the Great Souls to enter on this Rigour
and Austerity. To them the Gods themselves do Homage; for it is the
Way of Utmost Purity.
--
AC: Liber III
--
JL
333
> DE ARTE KABBALISTICA
post-Cabalistica
> Do thou study most constantly in the Art of the Holy Qabalah.
> Know that herein the Relations between Numbers, though they be
> mighty in Power and prodigal of Knowledge, are but lesser Things.
this is anti-Pythagoreanism. it seeks to disempower the auspicious
ontological qualities of numbers, and to place them in a modern
reductionist mode.
observe as Crowley continues:
> For the Work is to reduce all other conceptions to these
> of Number, because thus thou wilt lay bare the very
> Structure of thy Mind, whose rule is Necessity rather
> than Prejudice. Not until the Universe is thus laid
> naked before thee canst thou truly anatomize it.
it is also orientalist in its grasping displacement
both Indian and Jewish in style.
> The Tendencies of thy Mind lie deeper far than any
> Thought, for they are the Conditions and the Laws
> of Thought; and it is these that thou must bring to Nought.
it is expression such as this which foments and urges
the aim of terminating conscious intellection. not only
is this futile, but it may self-disable and prepare the
blossoming esotericist with the necessary programming
to be fleeced at some future point in time.
> This Way is most sure; most sacred; and the Enemies
> thereof most awful, most sublime. It is for the Great
> Souls to enter on this Rigour and Austerity. To them
> the Gods themselves do Homage; for it is the Way of
> Utmost Purity.
gods pay tribute to other gods. it is only speciesism
which prevents their recognition of deific animals.
> --
> AC: Liber III
333
luckymojo.com@nagasiva
Joseph Littleshoes
> Joseph Littleshoes <jpst...@isp.com> quotes Crowley:
>
>> DE ARTE KABBALISTICA
>
>
> post-Cabalistica
>
>
>>Do thou study most constantly in the Art of the Holy Qabalah.
>>Know that herein the Relations between Numbers, though they be
>>mighty in Power and prodigal of Knowledge, are but lesser Things.
>
>
> this is anti-Pythagoreanism. it seeks to disempower the auspicious
> ontological qualities of numbers, and to place them in a modern
> reductionist mode.
>
> observe as Crowley continues:
>
>
>>For the Work is to reduce all other conceptions to these
>>of Number, because thus thou wilt lay bare the very
>>Structure of thy Mind, whose rule is Necessity rather
>>than Prejudice. Not until the Universe is thus laid
>>naked before thee canst thou truly anatomize it.
>
>
> it is also orientalist in its grasping displacement
> both Indian and Jewish in style.
>
>
>>The Tendencies of thy Mind lie deeper far than any
>>Thought, for they are the Conditions and the Laws
>>of Thought; and it is these that thou must bring to Nought.
>
>
> it is expression such as this which foments and urges
> the aim of terminating conscious intellection.
Do you think the "tendencies of the mind" can not or should not be
discovered?
not only
> is this futile,
Have to disagree there,
but it may self-disable and prepare the
> blossoming esotericist with the necessary programming
> to be fleeced at some future point in time.
There is always collateral damage, whether in mark masons hall or the
local deli, slice that tomato wrong and you might lose a finger.
>
>
>>This Way is most sure; most sacred; and the Enemies
>>thereof most awful, most sublime. It is for the Great
>>Souls to enter on this Rigour and Austerity. To them
>>the Gods themselves do Homage; for it is the Way of
>>Utmost Purity.
>
>
> gods pay tribute to other gods. it is only speciesism
> which prevents their recognition of deific animals.
"there is no God but Man"
--
JL
>
>
>>--
>>AC: Liber III
>
>
> 333
> luckymojo.com@nagasiva
>
> alt.magick.moderated is a MODERATED newsgroup.
> Consult http://www.alt-magick-moderated.org/ where you
> may locate the newest Posting Guidelines and Charter
> for the newsgroup before your first post. Contact the
> Moderation Team at moder...@alt-magick-moderated.org
>
.
Meltdarok
> 333 wrote:
>> Joseph Littleshoes <jpst...@isp.com> quotes Crowley:
>>
>>> DE ARTE KABBALISTICA
>>
>>
>> post-Cabalistica
>>
>>
>>> Do thou study most constantly in the Art of the Holy Qabalah.
>>> Know that herein the Relations between Numbers, though they be mighty
>>> in Power and prodigal of Knowledge, are but lesser Things.
>>
>>
>> this is anti-Pythagoreanism. it seeks to disempower the auspicious
>> ontological qualities of numbers, and to place them in a modern
>> reductionist mode.
>> observe as Crowley continues:
>>
>>
>>> For the Work is to reduce all other conceptions to these of Number,
>>> because thus thou wilt lay bare the very Structure of thy Mind, whose
>>> rule is Necessity rather than Prejudice. Not until the Universe is
>>> thus laid
>>> naked before thee canst thou truly anatomize it.
>>
>>
>> it is also orientalist in its grasping displacement both Indian and
>> Jewish in style.
>snip<
>>
>> gods pay tribute to other gods. it is only speciesism which prevents
>> their recognition of deific animals.
>
> "there is no God but Man"
There is no Man but God.
> --
> JL
>>
>>
--
meltdarok, 6.02*10^23=1
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
JG
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote, On 2/16/2007 3:48 AM:
> > "there is no God but Man"
>
> There is no Man but God.
1. -Man, but there is no God!
2. -No, but there is Mangod.
1. -But God... Is there no Man?
2. -"But God..." ... No Man is there...
1. -...but Mangod is there, no?
2. - ...
1. -No, Mangod IS there.
2. Yes.
Fallen Angel Art
long, but in the end what does it actually prove? How your magickal wand is
longer than someone elses? The fact of the matter (I know, damn me, damn me
damn me for using facts...) is that this person believed in the curse,
therefore in his mind it has become a reality, therefore making it reality..
The ex is better at the chaotic than norm, she actually called him to tell
him she put a hoodoo on him, this causes psychosmatic issues as well. More
so concreating the idea that this is infact true.
Would it work? Well, without a question, yes, simply because the person that
it was placed upon believed it might, proven by the fact that he was worried
about it enough to actually post the question in usenet.
Thee Simple truth is that if you do not believe it will work, it won't, it
comes down to a battle of wills, and whom ever's will is stronger is going
to win...
boogie.chillenz
As Man is now, God once was.
As God is now, Man may become.
nagasiva
"Fallen Angel Art" <fallena...@charter.net>:
>damn me for using facts...) is that this person believed
>in the curse, therefore in his mind it has become a
>reality, therefore making it reality.
neuroses can grow out of suggestion.
> The ex is better at the chaotic than norm, she
> actually called him to tell him she put a hoodoo
> on him, this causes [psychosomatic] issues as well.
it may. it may not. some people are stronger-willed
than to cave to a suggestion of a spell. if all that
was required was the suggestion of a spell having
been done, then the person isn't very well guarded
or grounded.
> Would it work? ....
will the patient live? will the star succeed?
it is ridiculous to think it is always so.
> Thee Simple truth is that if you do not believe
> it will work, it won't,
there is the power of the spellcaster,
the freshness and appropriateness of
the spell components, and the expertise
of any verbal or kinetic catalysts
otherwise. there is the set of varying
conditions obtaining and their relation
to the intended outcome, and there is
the configuration of cosmic energies
toward a similar or coincident result.
belief in it is only a small part, one
which is typically emphasized by theurges
and those who seek to remove all but
strictly ordinary explanatory necessity.
> it comes down to a battle of wills,
not always, in spellcasting. sometimes
it is timing and the best preparation
(through training, through equipment,
by oracular assistance, etc.).
> and whom ever's will is stronger is going
> to win...
how dominating and simple. learn something
from martial arts. is there not a lesson
to be learned in the centering typically
promoted by such Martiality?
luckymojo.com@nagasiva
catherine yronwode
Well said, siva. The "it only works if you believe it does" defense
against mgical harm is invoked by many who think that the only
metaphysical concept to which they need pay heed is their own
consciousness.
One logical offshoot of this form of solipsism is something i call
"belief in the consent of the victim" -- a mental gymnastics move
whereby a solipsist can legitimize unfortunate events. The consent of
the victim is sometimes expressed as, "if it happened to me, i must have
allowed it to happen or subconsciously willed it to happen to me."
In New Age circles, the consent of the victim belief gives rise to
ideations such as, "The reason my house was destroyed in that landslide
was because i subconsciously wished to learn a lesson from that event,"
or "I would not have been born a paraplegic if on some level i did not
desire to experience life as a cripple."
Solipsism of this sort can be theoretically intriguing, but
realistically it is untenable to me, because i see practical evidence
all around me that things happen to people that are not within the
control of the people to which they happen. Thus, the invocation of
"belief in the consent of the victim" as a presumed "law" of magic seems
foolish and weak and unrealistic to me.
Cordially,
cat yronwode
Joseph Littleshoes
Even if the entity knows itself to be immortal and invulnerable,
changing only by the acquisition of memories, and this knowledge hidden
from consciousness during material existence to make the experience all
that more real? Thus allowing for an entity to not only desire but
volunteer for all sorts of awful stuff, knowing it will come through
unharmed?
This idea includes a perspective hidden during material existence, a
perspective that puts suffering in a different light than that
ordinarily conceived of by material beings.
--
JL
.
Tom
>
> The "it only works if you believe it does" defense
> against mgical harm is invoked by many who think that the only
> metaphysical concept to which they need pay heed is their own
> consciousness.
>
> One logical offshoot of this form of solipsism is something i call
> "belief in the consent of the victim" -- a mental gymnastics move
> whereby a solipsist can legitimize unfortunate events. The consent of
> the victim is sometimes expressed as, "if it happened to me, i must have
> allowed it to happen or subconsciously willed it to happen to me."
First off, "solipsism" is not a philosophy in which only metaphysical
concepts are seen as springing from the individual, but holds the position
that there is no compelling justification for the acceptance of *anything*
existing beyond one's own mind. Lots of people who are not in any way
solipsists regard metaphysical concepts as arising from the human mind. For
example, materialists, who represent the very antithesis of solipsists, have
no argument with the notion that metaphysical concepts are solely products
of the mind. To label that view as "solipsism" is to grossly misrepresent
it.
Secondly, the belief that curses only work with the collusion of the victim
is not equivalent with a belief that *all* unfortunate events are the result
of some sort of consent to them.
nagasiva
"Fallen Angel Art" <fallena...@charter.net>:
>>> Thee Simple truth is that if you do not
>>> believe it will work, it won't,
nagasiva:
>> there is the power of the spellcaster,
>> the freshness and appropriateness of
>> the spell components, and the expertise
>> of any verbal or kinetic catalysts
>> otherwise. there is the set of varying
>> conditions obtaining and their relation
>> to the intended outcome, and there is
>> the configuration of cosmic energies
>> toward a similar or coincident result.
>>
>> belief in it is only a small part, one
>> which is typically emphasized by theurges
>> and those who seek to remove all but
>> strictly ordinary explanatory necessity.
>>
>>> it comes down to a battle of wills,
>>
>> not always, in spellcasting. sometimes
>> it is timing and the best preparation
>> (through training, through equipment,
>> by oracular assistance, etc.).
>>
>>> and whom ever's will is stronger is going
>>> to win...
>>
>> how dominating and simple. learn something
>> from martial arts. is there not a lesson
>> to be learned in the centering typically
>> promoted by such Martiality?
sri catyananda:
> ...The "it only works if you believe it does"
> defense against mgical harm
presumably that's an explanation for how to
construct a mind-only defense (by disbelief).
> is invoked by many who think that the only
> metaphysical concept to which they need
> pay heed is their own consciousness.
indeed, it gives the impression of asserting
that magic or its like only extends interior
to subjective conscousness.
> One logical offshoot of this form of solipsism
as Tom has pointed out, this isn't strictly a
form of Solipsism, in part because it is not,
itself, extensive enough (a cosmology). your
usage of the term is interesting, however, and
obviously pertains only to magical effects ("I
believe that I am the creator of all magical
effects having an influence on my consciousness,
either by persuasion or by origination.").
> is something i call "belief in the consent
> of the victim" -- a mental gymnastics move
> whereby a solipsist can legitimize unfortunate
> events. The consent of the victim is sometimes
> expressed as, "if it happened to me, i must have
> allowed it to happen or subconsciously willed
> it to happen to me."
aka 'Blame the Victim'.
> In New Age circles, the consent of the victim
> belief gives rise to ideations such as, "The
> reason my house was destroyed in that landslide
> was because i subconsciously wished to learn
> a lesson from that event," or "I would not have
> been born a paraplegic if on some level i did
> not desire to experience life as a cripple."
indeed, it settles itself interior to axioms of
rationality for all events in the cosmos. there
may be supposed some Grand Thinker (White King
Dreamer) who designs the Way of the World (WoW).
> Solipsism of this sort can be theoretically
> intriguing, but realistically it is untenable
> to me, because i see practical evidence all
> around me that things happen to people that
> are not within the control of the people to
> which they happen.
yes, the supposition as to what is controlLING
and how influence and control occurs seems to
differ from your general observations. those
who 'know' about subtle bodies, souls, other
lifetimes, and any number of other cosmological
control vectors suppose that lives in fact
orchestrated, Gods or super-ordinal 4th-dim
spirit-bodies 'make' the control occur that
we, with our "inferior senses" cannot observe.
i don't find it helpful to agree with them.
> Thus, the invocation of "belief in the
> consent of the victim" as a presumed "law"
> of magic seems foolish and weak and
> unrealistic to me.
it strikes chords of religious harmony as i
perceive it. doctrinal litmus is everywhere
prominent in Western religion as an adjudi-
cator of the known.
luckymojo.com@nagasiva
catherine yronwode
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote in message
> news:461D4A2E...@herb-magic.com...
> >
> > The "it only works if you believe it does" defense
> > against mgical harm is invoked by many who think that the only
> > metaphysical concept to which they need pay heed is their own
> > consciousness.
> >
> > One logical offshoot of this form of solipsism is something i call
> > "belief in the consent of the victim" -- a mental gymnastics move
> > whereby a solipsist can legitimize unfortunate events. The consent of
> > the victim is sometimes expressed as, "if it happened to me, i must have
> > allowed it to happen or subconsciously willed it to happen to me."
>
> First off, "solipsism" is not a philosophy in which only metaphysical
> concepts are seen as springing from the individual, but holds the position
> that there is no compelling justification for the acceptance of *anything*
> existing beyond one's own mind. Lots of people who are not in any way
> solipsists regard metaphysical concepts as arising from the human mind. For
> example, materialists, who represent the very antithesis of solipsists, have
> no argument with the notion that metaphysical concepts are solely products
> of the mind. To label that view as "solipsism" is to grossly misrepresent
> it.
I called it a "form of solipsism," and i stand by that. It is certainly
not all-inclusive cosmological solipsism, granted. It is a sub-set of
solipsism that might be called "metaphysical solipsism."
I do see your point that some materialists might reach the conclusion
that metaphysical events originate in the mind -- but surely you know
that their way of getting to that point is different from that of a
metaphysical solipsist.
The materialist does not grant that metaphysical / paranormal events
have independent "objective" reality. For him or her, such events exist
only in the mind.
The metaphysicical solipsist does believe in the "objective" reality of
metaphysical / paranormal events -- but also believes that that his or
her mind controls and originates all metaphysical phenomena and that by
simply "not believing" in them, they disappear.
Solipsism thus is split into an overarching "cosmological" solipsim --
pure solipsism, greater solipsism, whatever you wish to call it, in
which ALL phenomena are adjudged to be originations of the solipsist --
and metaphysical solipsism, in which some portions of reality (e.g.
weather pehenomena, political phenomena, mechanical phenomena are not
thought to be originations of the solipsist, but all metaphysical /
paranormal / spell-casting events are thought to be originations of the
solipsist.
By the way, this is not merely a theoretical tack i am taking here -- i
have met numerous people who hold this viewpoint of metaphysical or
partial solipsism.
> Secondly, the belief that curses only work with the collusion of the victim
> is not equivalent with a belief that *all* unfortunate events are the result
> of some sort of consent to them.
It is essentially that same belief, but in the form of a sub-set that is
applied only to the realms the occult / metaphysics / paranormality /
spell-casting. See above
cat yronwode
Meltdarok
Right dere yo premise of dat "White King Dreamer"
from which ya draw yo lil cosmological diatribe,
is yet an agin strictly anthropomorphic.
>> Solipsism of this sort can be theoretically
>> intriguing, but realistically it is untenable
>> to me, because i see practical evidence all
>> around me that things happen to people that
>> are not within the control of the people to
>> which they happen.
>
> yes, the supposition as to what is controlLING
> and how influence and control occurs seems to
> differ from your general observations. those
> who 'know' about subtle bodies, souls, other
> lifetimes, and any number of other cosmological
> control vectors suppose that lives in fact
> orchestrated, Gods or super-ordinal 4th-dim
> spirit-bodies 'make' the control occur that
> we, with our "inferior senses" cannot observe.
"inferior senses"??? Tell me when was the last time you
sensed radio station FM 104.5?
> i don't find it helpful to agree with them.
Ok. Glad ya cleared dat one up right quickly!
>
>> Thus, the invocation of "belief in the
>> consent of the victim" as a presumed "law"
>> of magic seems foolish and weak and
>> unrealistic to me.
>
> it strikes chords of religious harmony as i
> perceive it. doctrinal litmus is everywhere
> prominent in Western religion as an adjudi-
> cator of the known.
>
> luckymojo.com@nagasiva
>
> alt.magick.moderated is a MODERATED newsgroup.
> Consult http://www.alt-magick-moderated.org/ where you
> may locate the newest Posting Guidelines and Charter
> for the newsgroup before your first post. Contact the
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--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/
catherine yronwode
Yeah, man. That Looking Glass premise is waaay too
anthropomorphic. We could as easily postulate
that the whole thing is a Frog dream or a Bacteria
dream!
> >> Solipsism of this sort can be theoretically
> >> intriguing, but realistically it is untenable
> >> to me, because i see practical evidence all
> >> around me that things happen to people that
> >> are not within the control of the people to
> >> which they happen.
> >
> > yes, the supposition as to what is controlLING
> > and how influence and control occurs seems to
> > differ from your general observations. those
> > who 'know' about subtle bodies, souls, other
> > lifetimes, and any number of other cosmological
> > control vectors suppose that lives in fact
> > orchestrated, Gods or super-ordinal 4th-dim
> > spirit-bodies 'make' the control occur that
> > we, with our "inferior senses" cannot observe.
>
> "inferior senses"??? Tell me when was the last time you
> sensed radio station FM 104.5?
We mostly sense the lower end of the dial,
FM 85.3, FM 85.5, FM 91.1, FM 94.1 :-)
> > i don't find it helpful to agree with them.
>
> Ok. Glad ya cleared dat one up right quickly!
:-)
cat (the other) yronwode
Tom
Stand by it all you like. You're still completely wrong.
> It is certainly
> not all-inclusive cosmological solipsism, granted. It is a sub-set of
> solipsism that might be called "metaphysical solipsism."
And what you're doing is "categorical solipsism" since you're insisting that
the only categories there are are the ones you made up. Any acknowledgement
that we can think at all is "a form of solipsism" as you put it.
> I do see your point that some materialists might reach the conclusion
> that metaphysical events originate in the mind -- but surely you know
> that their way of getting to that point is different from that of a
> metaphysical solipsist.
Who cares *how* you get there? It's the conclusion we're talking about, not
the process.
> The materialist does not grant that metaphysical / paranormal events
> have independent "objective" reality. For him or her, such events exist
> only in the mind.
>
> The metaphysicical solipsist does believe in the "objective" reality of
> metaphysical / paranormal events -- but also believes that that his or
> her mind controls and originates all metaphysical phenomena and that by
> simply "not believing" in them, they disappear.
I don't know anybody at all who believes that particular combination of
things.
> By the way, this is not merely a theoretical tack i am taking here -- i
> have met numerous people who hold this viewpoint of metaphysical or
> partial solipsism.
Who, precisely?
>> Secondly, the belief that curses only work with the collusion of the
>> victim
>> is not equivalent with a belief that *all* unfortunate events are the
>> result
>> of some sort of consent to them.
>
> It is essentially that same belief, but in the form of a sub-set that is
> applied only to the realms the occult / metaphysics / paranormality /
> spell-casting.
No it is not "essentially the same belief". I consider curses to work with
the collusion of the "victim" and I don't believe that everything that
happens to a person is their own fault. It those two were the same, I'd be
compelled to believe both. And I don't. So they're not.