Furry Take-Over
Shadow Tiger
city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
shear numbers.
I figure this way no one would give us any shit. We could wear our fursuits
to work, the store, wherever we wanted.
I think it'd be wonderful.
Shadow Tiger
FippyFox
Which city?
FippyFox
cat
<shado...@positech.net> purred:
>Cougar and I came up with the idea of getting all everyfur to move into one
>city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
>shear numbers.
Rats! I liked the "by force" method.
>I figure this way no one would give us any shit. We could wear our fursuits
>to work, the store, wherever we wanted.
>I think it'd be wonderful.
While I doubt there are enough of us to make up a town (even
the real small ones are usually in excess of 2,000 beings) there would
be enough to populate an apartment complex or small subdivision (gated
community, anyone?) As I remember there were some UK Furs involved in
the purchase and renovation of a building into a furry apartment
building. It would be relatively easy to do, too and not all that
expensive. I could get behind that sort of lunatic scheme.
cat
Kellic J. Tiger
"Shadow Tiger" <shado...@positech.net> wrote in message
news:a2b69m$2ec$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
LOL why am I not surprised that this is a idea from the mind of "the cougar"
:x)
Hey!!! How about Lakeville Minnesota. Its a smaller town (Around 25,000)
its rural so traffic isn't all that heavy. Light pollution hasn't become a
problem yet. And urban creep hasn't occurred so there is still quite a bit
of forested area.
--
-Kellic J. Tiger
ICQ#: 122371762
-"Ambiguity succeeds where honesty dares not venture"-Dogbert
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Skipai Da Otter
Hash: SHA1
"cat" <c...@consultant.com> wrote in message
news:44hi4ukqlldo899sf...@4ax.com...
> While I doubt there are enough of us to make up a town (even
> the real small ones are usually in excess of 2,000 beings) there
> would be enough to populate an apartment complex or small
> subdivision (gated community, anyone?) As I remember there were
> some UK Furs involved in the purchase and renovation of a building
> into a furry apartment
> building. It would be relatively easy to do, too and not all that
> expensive. I could get behind that sort of lunatic scheme.
I think that's still happening although I am not sure but I do know
that there are two furry capitals in the UK. London in the south and
as for furs living up north, most are moving into Sheffield. Why I
haven't a clue but Sheffield it is.
Cheaper to get furs to move to this town with large grassy areas and
everything plus the fact that rents start at £25 a week for a
flat/apartment :o) But oh well.
- --
Skipai Da Otter
When is a fish not a fish? When it's in my belly :o)
Remove 'fishbones' to email me.
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Reynard T. Fox
I had the exact same idea some days ago, only I was viewing it as an
inevitable part of the growth of the fandom. Specifically going into
one town as an organized group would have some good results, though.
The main problem is economic: There need to be jobs for anyone to move
in permanently.
-Rey
Bob
>Cougar and I came up with the idea of getting all everyfur to move into one
>city, or small town, and take over.
Heh. Sounds interesting. But I can't get away from college, and if
we took over a town, what kind of economy would it have?
Bob
"I have never let my schooling interfere
with my education" -Mark Twain
ICQ: 132963938
AIM: LordBobIAGNB
www.geocities.com/lordbobpmf
lordbob@do jaguars eat spam?.alltel.net
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Bob
> there would
>be enough to populate an apartment complex or small subdivision (gated
>community, anyone?)
Now /that/ sounds interesting.
MegaDog the Nettweiler
In article <44hi4ukqlldo899sf...@4ax.com>, cat yiffled:
> While I doubt there are enough of us to make up a town (even
>the real small ones are usually in excess of 2,000 beings) there would
>be enough to populate an apartment complex or small subdivision (gated
>community, anyone?) As I remember there were some UK Furs involved in
>the purchase and renovation of a building into a furry apartment
>building. It would be relatively easy to do, too and not all that
>expensive. I could get behind that sort of lunatic scheme.
It's a nice idea, but there are all sorts of nasty problems that
occur with properties-in-shared-occupation/ownership, largely
related to what happens if/when one of the residents starts making
a complete tailhole of him/herself, or where the money's going to
come from to pay for it all.
--
!Raised Tails! -:MegaDog:-
"Growl in your sleep and winged dreams will fly up your nose"
Warren Forest
It's one of these small expensive seaside comminities located beside a high
price golf course. The cheapest place for sale was $500,000 and the most
expensive one was $1,000,000
As soon as I make my first million, I'll meet the rest of you there...
--
Warren Forest, Canis Lupus Arctos - The Canadian Arctic Wolf
FCW3a A- C D++ H M- P+ R+ T++++ W Z- Sm-
RLET a29 c++ d-- e+ f+ h+ i+ j* p++ sm-
ICQ:136766132 Change "Cold" to "Hot" to e-mail me.
Cirrus Kain
the moment (there's plenty, I'm sure) and settle in there nice and cozy
without anybody knowing it.
Then when they discover us, we'll all be these half-crazed anti-social
little critters, growling at the Animal Control boys who've come to take us
away...
... And then when I finally regain the power of human speech, Oprah is SURE
to listen!!!!!
Tag Lioness, yer it. =P
-Cirrus Kain
--
AIM: CirrusKain
================================
Ravenclaw Beater,
Wand: Unicorn Hair, Willow, 10 inches
Owl: Puggledum
Why be an Animagus when I'm already a Furry?
================================
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Okumba Darkbear
A fursuit to work, That would get a bit hot in a big sweaty smokey old factory :o)
plus, what if I got grease or dirt in my fur :o)
hehehehe
Camstone Fox
*sigh* Sorry, but I'll have to pass... I'm here for the duration (as far as
I know.)
And while I think it would be nice... I doubt it would really work out.
http://dirtdeninn.org/Camstone/furfalicies.htm
Baloo Ursidae
> Cougar and I came up with the idea of getting all everyfur to move into one
> city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
> shear numbers.
We could probably do this to Vancouver, Washington (as determined last
Conifur by the Portland Rainfurs, which were in 90+% attendance at CNW,
being more than the annual Zoo Furmeet).
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> I think that's still happening although I am not sure but I do know
> that there are two furry capitals in the UK. London in the south and
> as for furs living up north, most are moving into Sheffield. Why I
> haven't a clue but Sheffield it is.
Better than Leeds...
> Cheaper to get furs to move to this town with large grassy areas and
> everything plus the fact that rents start at ?25 a week for a
> flat/apartment :o) But oh well.
Holy shit, that's cheap! What's the immigration requirements for GB?
Even if everything else is more expensive, what I gain in not paying in
rent makes up for it...
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> While I doubt there are enough of us to make up a town (even
> the real small ones are usually in excess of 2,000 beings) there would
> be enough to populate an apartment complex or small subdivision (gated
> community, anyone?)
Gated communities are expensive and suck. Now a random established
neighborhood would be good (I have issues with new development when
there's still room to infill...urban sprawl has no justification for its
existance. Build up, not out.)
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> I recomend the community of "Furry Creek" just north of Vancouver.
It's EXPENSIVE though.
> It's one of these small expensive seaside comminities located beside a high
> price golf course. The cheapest place for sale was $500,000 and the most
> expensive one was $1,000,000
The good news is it's Canadian, so it brings the land values to around
that of the Portland area (housing gets progressively more expensive the
further away from W or E 80th Avenue, for economic reasons inside, and
growth detterant outside those avenues. I live at 179th...)
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> Hey!!! How about Lakeville Minnesota. Its a smaller town (Around 25,000)
> its rural so traffic isn't all that heavy.
Vancouver, WA is just a little spit off North Portland, it *maybe* reaches
17,000, and that's a liberal estimate).
--
Baloo
Woggle
(in message <a2b69m$2ec$1...@raccoon.fur.com>):
Hmmm, I'd have suggested Asbury Park NJ, but they actually got their act
together, and people actually want to come in here, rather than get out.
Hmmm, there is a town in north NJ that should be available, last I heard
there were so few residents that the town was going to be unincorporated as
there weren't enough people to meet state minimum guidelines for staffing the
government.
--
-=scritches=-
Woggle greyscale foxtaur and hack writer ta...@furworld.org
ICQ #106685215 Y! redtaur AIM W0ggle
"Live people usually ignore the strange and unusual, I my self am strange and
unusual."-- Lydia, Beetlejuice
FCFt3a A-- C++ D H M++ P+ R++ T W Z+ Sm++ RLRB/AT a cm++ d? e f h- iwf+ j p+
sm+
PeterCat
> Sounds cool to me. Which city?
Red Lion, PA?
Tiger, GA?
Bear Lake, MI?
Bear Creek, AL?
Foxborough, MA?
Fox Lake, IL?
Fox, AK?
Wolfe City, TX?
Lone Wolf, OK?
Wolf Lake, MN?
Furr Township, NC?
--
The Furry InfoPage! http://www.tigerden.com/infopage/furry/
pete...@Furry.fan.org (PeterCat) Rhal on FurryMUCK (come cuddle!)
--
"I can't believe what he's doing with those shiitake mushrooms!"
Watch "Iron Chef," Fridays and Saturdays at 10pm (ET) on Food Network!
Ilris
I love the idea. I suggest somewhere in the mid-west. It's not as
crowded as other parts of the US, and the people aren't quite so insane.
--
I L R I S
mailto:il...@yahoo.com | Y!M: ilris | http://www.geocities.com/ilris
FMOc3a/CWc3a A->++ C- "The optimist proclaims that
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cdnw++++ d+ e- f-- h* pessimist fears this is true."
iwf++++ j p++ sm James Branck Cabell
Ilris
> Light pollution hasn't become a problem yet. And urban creep hasn't
> occurred so there is still quite a bit of forested area.
Give it a few years.
Kellic J. Tiger
> Kellic J. Tiger wrote:
>
> > Light pollution hasn't become a problem yet. And urban creep hasn't
>
> > occurred so there is still quite a bit of forested area.
>
> Give it a few years.
Ya. *sighs*
David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)
[...]
> While I doubt there are enough of us to make up a town (even
> the real small ones are usually in excess of 2,000 beings) there would
> be enough to populate an apartment complex or small subdivision
In queensland there was a furry comune call quarenteen and currently a
group of furs a renting out a pair of flats.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.
Kiala Tekalal
one
> city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
> shear numbers.
It's a good idea.. but look at our numbers.. we have just over 20,000 known
furs.. approx.. That's worldwide.. That's a small town at best..
-Kiala
cat
<ston...@earthlink.com> purred:
>Aw hell, I say we just find some random part of Canada they're not using at
>the moment (there's plenty, I'm sure) and settle in there nice and cozy
>without anybody knowing it.
Ah, Ha! another attempted invasion of Canada by the US. That
makes 5 tries, doesn't it? (not counting when the rich railroad barons
made their attempt)
cat
LionkingCMSL
PeterCat <pete...@furry.fan.org>, had this important message:
>"FippyFox" <Ha...@kingwoodcable.com> wrote:
>> Sounds cool to me. Which city?
>
>Red Lion, PA?
I'll have to check my atlases, but the only Red Lion, PA that I know of
is actually part of Philadelphia. Somehow i doubt there would be enough
furs to take over Philly, then again who would want to. One small foot
note, that's where the Budd plant/HQ was located. That's where they made
some of their semi-trailers and of course their railcars. Why else would
I know of it. :=3
There is however a Red Lion, NJ at the intersection (traffic circle, or
roundabout, really) of NJ 70 and US 206.
Locating there would be sorta ideal for me, as I would be about 2 hours
from the CMSL. :=3
--
LionkingCMSL - The railroading lion. :=3 - ICQ 73321205
To reply to me, you have to remove the "bumper" at the end of my addy.
PSA - "When it's a tie at a grade crossing, YOU lose!"
For more info, please go to - www.oli.org - Operation Lifesaver's Home page
http://users.snip.net/~lionking - My Home Page
Woggle
(in message <nubl4ugfpbit4qmp5...@4ax.com>):
>
> Locating there would be sorta ideal for me, as I would be about 2 hours
> from the CMSL. :=3
>
Where FurShore may still be holding meets at the diner ifn you'd be
interested. Oh, and its not a town of itself truly, its part of a larger
township.
Baloo Ursidae
> There is however a Red Lion, NJ at the intersection (traffic circle, or
> roundabout, really) of NJ 70 and US 206.
A roundabout generally is an uncontrolled intersection, with the
roundabout being large enough to accomodate traffic without conflict.
(Though if it requires signals or stop-signs, it's probably time to
seriously increase the diameter...)
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> I love the idea. I suggest somewhere in the mid-west. It's not as
> crowded as other parts of the US, and the people aren't quite so insane.
I don't tend to get along with folks south of the 43d parallel and east of
the rockies, unfortunately.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> "FippyFox" <Ha...@kingwoodcable.com> wrote:
>> Sounds cool to me. Which city?
Detroit, Oregon. Tiny town just barely west of the Warm Springs Indian
Reservation with a huge lake for fishing, and hundreds of other lakes that
aren't stocked but are so hard to get to there's no bag limit.
--
Baloo
Christopher Williams
Shadow Tiger <shado...@positech.net> wrote in message
news:a2b69m$2ec$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> Cougar and I came up with the idea of getting all everyfur to move into
one
> city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
> shear numbers.
fursuits
> to work, the store, wherever we wanted.
> I think it'd be wonderful.
Well, this seems about as good a place to delurk as any.
I'm amazed that nobody from any of the community mailing lists has commented
on this. There have been two similar movements in the past 8 years or so,
the "Heart'sDream" group and more recently "Avalana". Both have ground to a
halt, unfortunately.
Myself, I'm just planning to use the "nucleation and growth" method. I'm
going to find a little place to call my own, then start inviting furs to
join. Given enough time, I think that could build into a decent community.
Firemane,
who finally has access to the newsgroup again, after two years of silence.
>
> Shadow Tiger
>
>
Solus
being taken over by furs,
we have like, hmmm, not sure, but many
furs to move in, and I will soon to be one of those
residents one of these days myself,
there is a college there too,
which will be what will get me into that city,
but one by one, we will have it to our selfs one of these days,
or just most of it,
well that is enought from the ounce on that for now,
----------------Solus
cat
<lionki...@snip.net.bumper> purred:
>Homestead RR Bulletin dated Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:37:10 -0500, from
>PeterCat <pete...@furry.fan.org>, had this important message:
>
>>"FippyFox" <Ha...@kingwoodcable.com> wrote:
>>> Sounds cool to me. Which city?
>>
>>Red Lion, PA?
>
>I'll have to check my atlases, but the only Red Lion, PA that I know of
>is actually part of Philadelphia. Somehow i doubt there would be enough
>furs to take over Philly, then again who would want to.
Hey! Philly is a great place and easy to take over. All you
have to do is make a deal with the mob for it since they already own
the place.
cat
Relee
>Cougar and I came up with the idea of getting all everyfur to move into one
>city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
>shear numbers.
>I figure this way no one would give us any shit. We could wear our fursuits
>to work, the store, wherever we wanted.
>I think it'd be wonderful.
It'd be a better idea to take over an island.
We could build some small clean factories, and share the profits
equally among a close knit socialist society!
Well maybe. :P
It'd be like Japan but smaller.
--
Relee the Squirrel - Fear the wrath of Turkey-Lurkey, DESTORYER OF WORLDS!!!
Homepage - www.geocities.com/fizbanus
ICQ - 26927574
Grizzly Den - www.grizzlyden.org
SnuhwolF
Christopher Williams <fire...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:srF28.313236$WW.14...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Shadow Tiger <shado...@positech.net> wrote in message
> news:a2b69m$2ec$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> > Cougar and I came up with the idea of getting all everyfur to move into
> one
> > city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
> > shear numbers.
> > I figure this way no one would give us any shit. We could wear our
> fursuits
> > to work, the store, wherever we wanted.
> > I think it'd be wonderful.
>
> Well, this seems about as good a place to delurk as any.
>
> I'm amazed that nobody from any of the community mailing lists has
commented
> on this. There have been two similar movements in the past 8 years or so,
> the "Heart'sDream" group and more recently "Avalana". Both have ground to
a
> halt, unfortunately.
>
You musta been a friend of LoveBear...
The concept of an isolationist movement comes up yearly.I proposed buying
one of the towns that are for sale on the "hi-line" in N.Dakota & Eastern
Montana. It'll never happen. No-one can agree on pizza toppings much less
complex issues like this.
HAND
SnuhwolF
Baloo Ursidae <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote in message
news:kiqe2a...@ursine.dyndns.org...
>
> I don't tend to get along with folks south of the 43d parallel and east of
> the rockies, unfortunately.
>
You left out weres in Montana, hth.
SnuhwolF
Its down-right frightening :o/
Ilris
> I don't tend to get along with folks south of the 43d parallel and east of
> the rockies, unfortunately.
Hmm. That may be bad then. I currently live near Denver, and I've
never been any part of the world on the west side of the Rockies.
Ilris
> We could build some small clean factories, and share the profits
> equally among a close knit socialist society!
No thank you.
Besides if your going to go with a polar opposite to Capitalism, you
might as well go wit Anarchy. It seems more feasible to me then Socialist.
Cirrus Kain
> >Aw hell, I say we just find some random part of Canada they're not using
at
> >the moment (there's plenty, I'm sure) and settle in there nice and cozy
> >without anybody knowing it.
>
> Ah, Ha! another attempted invasion of Canada by the US. That
> makes 5 tries, doesn't it? (not counting when the rich railroad barons
> made their attempt)
Not invasion... just relocation and use...
-Cirrus Kain
--
AIM: CirrusKain
================================
Ravenclaw Beater,
Wand: Unicorn Hair, Willow, 10 inches
Owl: Puggledum
Why be an Animagus when I'm already a Furry?
================================
Fur Code: FCW3adw A+ C- D+++ H+++ M- P+ R- T+++ W Z- Sf++ RLU a17 cn++ d- e+
f++ h* iwf+ j+ p+ sf++
Cirrus Kain
> >>> Sounds cool to me. Which city?
> >>
> >>Red Lion, PA?
> >
> >I'll have to check my atlases, but the only Red Lion, PA that I know of
> >is actually part of Philadelphia. Somehow i doubt there would be enough
> >furs to take over Philly, then again who would want to.
>
> Hey! Philly is a great place and easy to take over. All you
> have to do is make a deal with the mob for it since they already own
> the place.
Mmmm... organized crime... =)
David Fox
> neighborhood would be good (I have issues with new development when
> there's still room to infill...urban sprawl has no justification for its
> existance. Build up, not out.)
Urban sprawl has plenty of justification when you take into account soaring
rents in the cities, crime problems, traffic jams, high taxes, small
apartments, and a general lowering of the quality of life when one lives in
the city. Furthermore, some people want to own their homes, live in a space
with a yard to for their children to play in, and streets not clogged with
traffic. To say "build up, not out" is to take a view that the problems that
generate urban sprawl are not major and is also to grossly overestimate the
amount of available capital, construction capacity, and interest in high
rise apartments in this country. People in America (and indeed around the
world) still dream of a house with a yard and trees (or cacti), I,
personally, am not so uncaring as to say they can't have them in the
interests of some central planning scheme (which will in the end fail at the
stated goals and achieve the ones constituents are not made fully aware of).
David Fox
David Fox
"SnuhwolF" <JlEnmS...@KAhcKhSbvW.com> wrote in message news:z2K28.20324
> Its very bizarre how I can be in complete agreement with you at times...
> Its down-right frightening :o/
I thought you lived in Montana?
Chazz
news:fehm4ukfkrprdcs1j...@4ax.com...
> Hey! Philly is a great place and easy to take over. All you
> have to do is make a deal with the mob for it since they already own
> the place.
Nahhhh, just get Giulianni in there for one term. I may have had my quarrels
with some of his decisions, but the guy's got a set of brass bollocks.
Giulliani (to the mob): Get out of New York, or else.
Mob: *laughter* Or else what?
Giulliani: Okay, let's take the fish market, and move the entire thing....
that way.
Mob: ....
I give big-time props to that man, even pre-9/11
--
Chazz
-----------
If for some bizarre reason you wish to contact me, change "loa.moc" to
"aol.com".
David Fox
> You should move to a city with an Urban Growth Boundary like Portland or
> Chicago (though you can see a contrast: We established our boundaries far
> before we had a problem, Chicago did not.)
Or Boulder which has it's own green belts and now has a problem with
providing decent housing for actual working people within the community,
however, it has lined the pockets of major, vested real estate interests and
developers. Welcome to a system called artificial shortage. Prices increase,
rents soar, and there is little to no recourse against it. Great no? And
here I thought you were for the working stiffs.
David Fox
David Fox
news:a2b69m$2ec$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> Cougar and I came up with the idea of getting all everyfur to move into
one
> city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by
> shear numbers.
> I figure this way no one would give us any shit. We could wear our
fursuits
> to work, the store, wherever we wanted.
> I think it'd be wonderful.
Furs have enough problems sharing apartments much less being able to run a
town.
Woggle
(in message <tope2a...@ursine.dyndns.org>):
And traffic circles are the assinine American version, the worst having been
Brielle during its deconstruction, it was converted to a four way traffic
light controlled intersection with exit ramps(read jughandles), but of
course, they had to do something with it while they worked, so they remade
the traffic circle out of orange cones. That's always fun to discover at 2AM
when you're half asleep and haven't gone through there in months.
Baloo Ursidae
> Besides if your going to go with a polar opposite to Capitalism, you
> might as well go wit Anarchy. It seems more feasible to me then Socialist.
No offense, but you've gotta be pretty ignorant to miss the fact that
Canada enjoys the world's highest standard of living and they're
socialist.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> Its very bizarre how I can be in complete agreement with you at times...
> Its down-right frightening :o/
You should move to a city with an Urban Growth Boundary like Portland or
Chicago (though you can see a contrast: We established our boundaries far
before we had a problem, Chicago did not.)
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
>> I don't tend to get along with folks south of the 43d parallel and east of
>> the rockies, unfortunately.
> You left out weres in Montana, hth.
Montana's still in the rockies for a good part. About the only time I
care to go east of the rockies is if I'm north of the border. And even
then, I'm not sure what it is with Québecois and Albertan drivers that
make them completely insane (Albertans drive like slightly drunk
Washingtonians so I give them a lot of extra room and Québecois never turn
on red even when it's legal to and basically do what they can to be
actively in the way, from my experiance. Ask me about my experiance with
Québec drivers in Portland and on the Icefields Parkway in email if you
care to listen).
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
>> Hey! Philly is a great place and easy to take over. All you
>> have to do is make a deal with the mob for it since they already own
>> the place.
>
> Nahhhh, just get Giulianni in there for one term. I may have had my quarrels
> with some of his decisions, but the guy's got a set of brass bollocks.
But we're talking about Philly...
> I give big-time props to that man, even pre-9/11
Times Square isn't as much of a shithole now, barring MTV being right on
it...
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> And traffic circles are the assinine American version, the worst having been
> Brielle during its deconstruction, it was converted to a four way traffic
> light controlled intersection with exit ramps(read jughandles)
That's a cloverleaf intersection. They suck only slightly more than
cloverleaf interchanges...
There's only two roundabouts in Beaverton, and they have to remind morons
to yield to those already in the roundabout with signs, and to keep moving
once you're in it. The KEEP MOVING signs are more effective than STOP
signs for getting traffic to come to a full and complete stop after the
Californian invasion...
There's a shitload of wannabe roundabouts, which are four-way
intersections with a big planter in the middle and roundabout signs on
them...
Portland has a couple absolutely massive roundabouts that got too busy to
handle traffic, which is too bad, because the reason there's a roundabout
is to eliminate the need for the damn stop signs at intersections...
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> Urban sprawl has plenty of justification when you take into account soaring
> rents in the cities, crime problems, traffic jams, high taxes, small
> apartments, and a general lowering of the quality of life when one lives in
> the city.
Portland enjoys a high quality of life, nearly no crime, rents that aren't
going sky-high like it does in sprawling cities, taxes similar to the rest
of the state, and relatively good traffic. Of course, Portland also has
urban planning and a transit system that *works*. Even paying the most
expensive fare possible ($1.25), you still can't drive *anywhere* that
cheap (insurance is mandatory in Portland, and gas hovers somewhere
between $1.17-$1.50/gal mini-serve[1], and still runs cheaper than
self-serve in Vancouver.[2] Prices only about a nickel higher for
full-serve in both cases.
> Furthermore, some people want to own their homes, live in a space
> with a yard to for their children to play in, and streets not clogged with
> traffic.
Last I checked, most apartment complexes have massive yards, while most
new homes have total yard space rivaling that of apartment balconies...
> To say "build up, not out" is to take a view that the problems that
> generate urban sprawl are not major and is also to grossly overestimate the
> amount of available capital, construction capacity, and interest in high
> rise apartments in this country.
If you exclude Oregon from "this country," then yes. (And we'd all prefer
it if you did.)
> interests of some central planning scheme (which will in the end fail at the
> stated goals and achieve the ones constituents are not made fully aware of).
If you ignore over 1,000 major cities worldwide that have pulled it off
successfully.
[1] Oregon has voted 8 times now against legalizing self-service gas
stations, and gas still stays fairly cheap. The Estby station up the
street has $1.01 now, cheaper than Arco.
[2] Except when something strange happens like this week, where it's
between $.88 and $1.00/gal self in Vancouer.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> developers. Welcome to a system called artificial shortage. Prices increase,
> rents soar, and there is little to no recourse against it. Great no? And
> here I thought you were for the working stiffs.
I am. Which is why I'm in favor of rent controls and livable communities.
I like being able to go past 250th Avenue either way and watch the city
just *end*. UGBs are extremely common outside the US, and ubiquitous in
Europe. You still get massive cities, but you don't get cities like LA,
Olympia/Fife/Tacoma/Seatac/Seattle, Phoenix, New York, or Atlanta where it
takes four hours to drive across it even when it's not rush hour. The
longest it's ever taken me to cross the *entire* Portland Metro area from
W 250th to E 250th is 2 hours, and that was at the middle of rush hour
when traffic wasn't moving much.[1] Takes me about 90 minutes to go from
the north Vancouver city line to the south Tualitin city line on 5, taking
405 through Portland to avoid the dangerously unstable Marquam Bridge.[2]
[1] That's my only major beef with Oregonians and Washingtonians, a lane
ends, or a couterflow lane closes to switch directions, or an onramp
happens and people start merging like they're paid to be idiots... Merge
AT SPEED into the *FIRST* opening, don't try to dive in at the last
seconds. Diving in at the last second causes traffic to slow down, and
makes everybody, including you, to get there slower. When people merge,
leave a large space ahead and don't try and close people off. Alternating
isn't as important as not slowing down. Let people in, even if it means
letting a car or three ahead of you. The point is to let it go smoothly,
not to get into a DSW with the guy trying to merge.
[2] The City of Portland is planning on either taking out the Marquam
Bridge and I-5 along the eastern waterfront and burying it under the river
and it's current route, or taking out the Marquam, putting in the
Williamette Bridge east-west over the river and OMSI, and burying the
freeway under E 7th Avenue and redesignating I-405 as I-5, and
redesignating I-5 where it used to be to I-84N and I-84S, or taking out
the Marquam and I-5 between the south end of I-405 and I-84 altogether,
redesignating the remaining stretch from the north end if I-405 to I-84 as
I-84 and redesignating I-405 as I-5, eliminating the completely useless
section of freeway anyway[3].
[3] Most locals that take I-5 in from the south and need to get on I-84 go
around on I-405 and get on 5 south to get to 84 anyway, so this would
eliminate the current nasty 84-5 interchange and the dangerous section of
5 south and the Marquam bridge altogether. This is my preferred method.
--
Baloo
PeterCat
> I'll have to check my atlases, but the only Red Lion, PA that I know
> of is actually part of Philadelphia. Somehow i doubt there would be
> enough furs to take over Philly, then again who would want to.
Well, yeah, but you'd have to have someplace with a decent variety of
jobs. Small towns are small because there's not much work -- for most in
the country, farming is the main source of income, or providing services
for farmers and their families (mechanics, schools, retail, etc.) I grew
up in a small town, my dad was a salesman for a local millwork
(door/window/cabinet) factory, which was the only sizeable non-farm
employer except for the school. So it makes more sense to take over a
suburb or a neighborhood near a city, or at least near a manufacturing
plant.
--
The Furry InfoPage! http://www.tigerden.com/infopage/furry/
pete...@Furry.fan.org (PeterCat) Rhal on FurryMUCK (come cuddle!)
--
"I can't believe what he's doing with those shiitake mushrooms!"
Watch "Iron Chef," Fridays and Saturdays at 10pm (ET) on Food Network!
cat
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> purred:
No they don't and no they aren't.
cat
Ami noMiko
city, or small town, and take over. Not by force mind you, but just by shear
numbers.>>
As long as we're suggesting cities, I thought I'd pipe up for us desert loving
furries. Yeah, all one of us. *laugh*
How about Fernly, NV? I'd be really surprised if there were more than 5,000
people there. Most house's are on large lots and some are even a mile or more
away from their nearest neighbor. The Truckee River runs through the middle of
it, so there are tons of willow trees, with lovely open desert farther away
from the river. Rent, housing and lots are cheap. The hard part is finding
water on your land... It's also only 20 mins away from Sparks/Reno, so there
are more employment opportunities than are found actually in Fernley.
And best of all, it'd actually bring some real life furries to Nevada. Mwa ha
ha ha ha! :)
~*~*~Ami noMiko Mouse~*~*~
The Benevolent Amphibian Forgives!
"Seeking paradise within a dream..."
Yay! I got my Furnation address!
http://www.furnation.com/AminoMiko/
Remove the cheese from my email to reply. :)
Baloo Ursidae
> No they don't and no they aren't.
By thier own claims, they're socialist. By London's claims, all
commonwealths are socialist. By the UN listings, Canada's got the best
standard of living anywhere in the world.
Mind backing up your claim, please?
--
Baloo
David Fox
> Portland enjoys a high quality of life, nearly no crime, rents that aren't
> going sky-high like it does in sprawling cities, taxes similar to the rest
> of the state, and relatively good traffic. Of course, Portland also has
> urban planning and a transit system that *works*.
Uh Baloo, read up a little, for everyone else,10 facts about Portland Baloo
doesn't want you to hear:
1) Portland's "growth boundary" has been moved several times since it was
first introduced and the city's planning authority estimates the population
of Portland will increase 50% by 2010 and necessitate another expansion of
the so-called "boundar" outwards.
2) The state Department of Justice finds that the leading factor of low
crime in Portland is the displacement of low income families by rising
rents, they are replaced by higher income families (a demographic less
likely to commit crimes).
3) Portland State University finds that housing prices in Portland rose 62%
from 1990 to 1995 or more than three times the national average over the
same period.
4) Traffic congestion in Portland is expected to at least triple by 2015 and
time spent in traffic to quadruple.
5) The law for the so-called "boundary" actually states that it must
maintain a 20 year land supply within the boundary, in other words, that
boundary must be continuously moved outwards as time passes.
6) According to Gerard Mildner, Ph.D. of Portland State University, several
of the iniatitives to contain growth have met with staunch resistance by the
people directly effected, namely those who are to lose their homes to a high
density rezone, as was evident with single family home owners in Southwest
Portland.
7) Much of the population has moved to exurban and neighboring communities
to be able to live in a single family home. This trend is expected to
continue as the population grows, creating suburban sprawl outside the legal
boundaries of the Metro area, but suburban sprawl all the same.
8) There have been widely supported petitions to abolish the Metro and its
so-called "boundaries."
9) The farmers who were to be "protected" from urban encroachment have
actually retained development rights to their land and regularly turn the
farm land over to development at obscene profits.
10) Portland is a largely homogenous city thanks to a law from the 19th
century prohibiting the settlement of African Americans, it is furthermore
not economically diverse according to Mildner, factors that work in favor of
low expansion through reduced political pressures from minorities seeking
opportunities and low income families seeking lower rents.
Mildner raises doubts that Portland's system could be reproduced, especially
in a racially and economically diverse community. Furthermore, Portland
enjoys a natural barrier to growth as currently more than 16,000 acres of
the land enclosed by the "boundary" is deemed unbuildable because of terrain
factors as well as being the economic center and thus being capable of
attracting ever higher income families to move there, while working stiffs
get pushed out of the city altogether. In the end Mildner also concludes
that "while the Portland region seems to have avoided the specter most
feared, Los Angeles-style suburban sprawl, the region appears headed instead
for the San Francisco model of inner city gentrification and suburban
exclusivity."
I would tend to agree.
David Fox
Baloo Ursidae
> 1) Portland's "growth boundary" has been moved several times since it was
> first introduced and the city's planning authority estimates the population
> of Portland will increase 50% by 2010 and necessitate another expansion of
> the so-called "boundar" outwards.
I'm aware that the boundary was moved. It gets moved (inwards in most
areas, and out in a few) every 5 years. It's not a perfect system, I
know.
> 2) The state Department of Justice finds that the leading factor of low
> crime in Portland is the displacement of low income families by rising
> rents, they are replaced by higher income families (a demographic less
> likely to commit crimes).
Northeast Portland has always had this problem, even before the growth
boundary. You can't blame it on that.
> 3) Portland State University finds that housing prices in Portland rose 62%
> from 1990 to 1995 or more than three times the national average over the
> same period.
And Portland's population increased by 125% from people moving in from
California during the same timespan.
> 4) Traffic congestion in Portland is expected to at least triple by 2015 and
> time spent in traffic to quadruple.
Quote source, please? Worst figures anybody's said, even ODOT, who always
tries to make things look bad to get more funding, is under half that.
> 5) The law for the so-called "boundary" actually states that it must
> maintain a 20 year land supply within the boundary, in other words, that
> boundary must be continuously moved outwards as time passes.
There's no reason why this can't change, though. Votes can happen to
change this (and likely will after the next 5 year adjustment)
> 7) Much of the population has moved to exurban and neighboring communities
> to be able to live in a single family home. This trend is expected to
> continue as the population grows, creating suburban sprawl outside the legal
> boundaries of the Metro area, but suburban sprawl all the same.
State law prohibits this, and it is enforced. Basically, you're lying
here. All of Portland's urban sprawl in Oregon is within the UGB.
Vancouver doesn't suffer this problem due to a high sales tax.
> 8) There have been widely supported petitions to abolish the Metro and its
> so-called "boundaries."
If by "widely supported" you mean the 72 member "Oregonians in Action," a
small but vocal group of building contractors.
> 9) The farmers who were to be "protected" from urban encroachment have
> actually retained development rights to their land and regularly turn the
> farm land over to development at obscene profits.
The joke is buying land for pennies on the dollar in the 1970s and selling
it for three times as much you paid for it to the Californians. We
benefit from Californian's gullibility.
> 10) Portland is a largely homogenous city thanks to a law from the 19th
> century prohibiting the settlement of African Americans, it is furthermore
> not economically diverse according to Mildner, factors that work in favor of
> low expansion through reduced political pressures from minorities seeking
> opportunities and low income families seeking lower rents.
There's no way to enforce that law anymore, and look around the northwest
in general sometime, it's not just Portland. The Oregon Territories
region is pretty damn whitebred.
> in a racially and economically diverse community. Furthermore, Portland
> enjoys a natural barrier to growth as currently more than 16,000 acres of
> the land enclosed by the "boundary" is deemed unbuildable because of terrain
> factors
That's what happens when you have a mountain range run through the west
side (the Tualitin Mountains, or the west hills that Everclear sings
about).
> that "while the Portland region seems to have avoided the specter most
> feared, Los Angeles-style suburban sprawl, the region appears headed instead
> for the San Francisco model of inner city gentrification and suburban
> exclusivity."
SF also enjoys the benefits of having thier UGB strictly enforced by a
large body of water.
--
Baloo
Nightwind
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 01:21:16 -0600, "Shadow Tiger"
> <shado...@positech.net> purred:
> >I figure this way no one would give us any shit. We could wear our fursuits
> >to work, the store, wherever we wanted.
> >I think it'd be wonderful.
>
> While I doubt there are enough of us to make up a town (even
> the real small ones are usually in excess of 2,000 beings) there would
> be enough to populate an apartment complex or small subdivision (gated
> community, anyone?) As I remember there were some UK Furs involved in
> the purchase and renovation of a building into a furry apartment
> building. It would be relatively easy to do, too and not all that
> expensive. I could get behind that sort of lunatic scheme.
if you build they will come......
*coughs*
how about my town, that way i don't have to move..
perfect nicname..
'catty'
Nightwind
'the wind has no destination'
David Fox
> By thier own claims, they're socialist. By London's claims, all
> commonwealths are socialist. By the UN listings, Canada's got the best
> standard of living anywhere in the world.
>
> Mind backing up your claim, please?
I'll back him, cover two areas on it, too:
Dubious UN Data
Before asking cat to back his claims, you need to back yours with a bit more
than a UN listing. Those listings are very dubious and the UN is well known
for making mistakes, fudging statistics, and making all publications
inherently political (usually to stroke egos). For example many of the
countries ranked highest in education by the United Nations work on a
matriculation regime and actually remove their lowest students from the
reports to the UN, justifying it with the matriculation program (this is
very evident in Singapore). The United States which ranks low in the first
world actually reports all students, over and under performing, which gives
the US a more realistic assessment of educational capacity. On the rankings
for standards of living, one major component is the provision of health
coverage. Canada "provides" healthcare to all citizens, but apparently not
prescription drugs, and has an average hospital wait time of a little over
ten days, it furthermore has serious shortages of nurses and doctors as well
as low quality across the board in services (so much so that many well to do
Canadians near the border go to see US doctors), these factors are not
considered in that criteria. Another is life expectancy, Canadians enjoy a
life expectancy of around 79 years, but a little tidbit that may surprise
and titilate, that is roughly the same as the life expectancy of a person in
Siberia, where few health services even exist. As a matter of fact, many
medical researchers point to climate and elevation as factors very important
to health with life expectancies being statistically lower as one moves
closer to the tropics even among people with equal health care. Furthermore,
the UN survey does not take into account air quality standards, traffic
safety measures, security of rights, access to legal recourse, mean buying
power, employment prospects, number of college graduates retained (one
statistic has it that around 40% of all Canadian graduates leave the country
for the United States).
Socialism
According to Webster's Dictionary socialism means:
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or
governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and
distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private
property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of
production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and
communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay
according to work done
The word was also coined in 1837. The only definition that even begins to
fit Canada is definition 3 and unless we've been lied to for over fifty
years, Canada has no intention of becoming a communist country. Furthermore,
it is, note, very popular to be called socialist in Europe/Canada because
many people believe it to be high-minded and cosmopolitan thinking. But what
is said and what is done are two very different things. Economic disparity
is high in Canada, oddly enough. So-called socialism actually plays into the
hands of the wealthiest one percent, how is anyone else supposed to get
enough capital to challenge a monopoly or other business if they are taxed
at 60%?
As Mark Twain stated, "get your facts straight first, then you may distort
them as you please."
David Fox
David Fox
> I am. Which is why I'm in favor of rent controls and livable communities.
Ahem. You convince someone to build a nice apartment building at a "livable"
rent control. As far as livable communities, it's really a low standard
since people were living in bombed out rubble in Afghanistan, I see a
distinct difference between "livable" communities and "jealous" communities
who simply want to keep out unwanted people. All "livable" communities are
gated communities, either with physical gates or with prohibitive costs,
take your pick. As for rent controls, they only work on older buildings or
HUD projects because of the economic dynamics of those existing structures.
> I like being able to go past 250th Avenue either way and watch the city
> just *end*. UGBs are extremely common outside the US, and ubiquitous in
> Europe. You still get massive cities, but you don't get cities like LA,
> Olympia/Fife/Tacoma/Seatac/Seattle, Phoenix, New York, or Atlanta where it
> takes four hours to drive across it even when it's not rush hour. The
> longest it's ever taken me to cross the *entire* Portland Metro area from
> W 250th to E 250th is 2 hours, and that was at the middle of rush hour
> when traffic wasn't moving much.[1] Takes me about 90 minutes to go from
> the north Vancouver city line to the south Tualitin city line on 5, taking
> 405 through Portland to avoid the dangerously unstable Marquam Bridge.[2]
Yep, but then you're also talking about countries like Denmark and Sweden
where the populations are actually falling.
David Fox
David Fox
> No offense, but you've gotta be pretty ignorant to miss the fact that
> Canada enjoys the world's highest standard of living and they're
> socialist.
No offense Baloo, but you've got to be pretty ignorant not to miss the fact
that Canada has glaring problems.
David Fox
David Fox
> Vancouver, WA is just a little spit off North Portland, it *maybe* reaches
> 17,000, and that's a liberal estimate).
If you're talking about the Vancouver I think you are, it is more around
40,000 and that's a conservative estimate.
David Fox
> Portland has a couple absolutely massive roundabouts that got too busy to
> handle traffic, which is too bad, because the reason there's a roundabout
> is to eliminate the need for the damn stop signs at intersections...
So you were lying when you said that Portland does not have bad traffic?
Baloo Ursidae
>> Portland has a couple absolutely massive roundabouts that got too busy to
>> handle traffic, which is too bad, because the reason there's a roundabout
>> is to eliminate the need for the damn stop signs at intersections...
>
> So you were lying when you said that Portland does not have bad traffic?
Only 26 and 217 inbound. Not quite sure how there can always be so many
more people going into Portland than leaving it at any hour day or
night...the rest of the freeways tend to do a pretty steady 50 or 60 MPH
day or night. It would probably be Seattle bad if we didn't have a
transit system that works.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> No offense Baloo, but you've got to be pretty ignorant not to miss the fact
> that Canada has glaring problems.
It does. I admit that. Health care tends to be a bit slow many of the
eastern cities, and many public services went to crap when they sold them
to private industry. Canada's realising the mistake of privatising those
services, it doesn't work for them.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> The word was also coined in 1837. The only definition that even begins to
> fit Canada is definition 3 and unless we've been lied to for over fifty
> years, Canada has no intention of becoming a communist country. Furthermore,
Go there sometime. They fit definition 1.
Plus, why are you even arguing this? If you don't like the way Oregon and
Canada runs things, save us all the bother and stay the hell out.
--
Baloo
Chazz
> Chazz <chazb...@moc.loa> wrote:
>
> >> Hey! Philly is a great place and easy to take over. All you
> >> have to do is make a deal with the mob for it since they already own
> >> the place.
> >
> > Nahhhh, just get Giulianni in there for one term. I may have had my
quarrels
> > with some of his decisions, but the guy's got a set of brass bollocks.
>
> But we're talking about Philly...
I know. If the sucker could get the mob out of New York, they'd pack up and
move out of Philly when he put his name on the ballot.
> > I give big-time props to that man, even pre-9/11
>
> Times Square isn't as much of a shithole now, barring MTV being right on
> it...
Maybe.... But hookers can be fun. If you catch them the first day on the
job, that is ;)
--
Chazz
-----------
If for some bizarre reason you wish to contact me, change "loa.moc" to
"aol.com".
Relee
>Relee wrote:
>
>> We could build some small clean factories, and share the profits
>> equally among a close knit socialist society!
>
>No thank you.
>
>Besides if your going to go with a polar opposite to Capitalism, you
>might as well go wit Anarchy. It seems more feasible to me then Socialist.
*giggle* I was just kidding but imo socialisim is better than
Capitalism.
And no I don't wanna discuss it, 'cause I'm not intending to govern a
country any time soon. :)
--
Relee the Squirrel - Fear the wrath of Turkey-Lurkey, DESTORYER OF WORLDS!!!
Homepage - www.geocities.com/fizbanus
ICQ - 26927574
Grizzly Den - www.grizzlyden.org
David Fox
> I'm aware that the boundary was moved. It gets moved (inwards in most
> areas, and out in a few) every 5 years. It's not a perfect system, I
> know.
So you admit that the system doesn't actually work, per se.
> Northeast Portland has always had this problem, even before the growth
> boundary. You can't blame it on that.
However, Mildner notes this is a problem with all of Portland.
> And Portland's population increased by 125% from people moving in from
> California during the same timespan.
You can't blame California for your own poor planning, sorry.
> Quote source, please? Worst figures anybody's said, even ODOT, who always
> tries to make things look bad to get more funding, is under half that.
NHTSB study on risk factors and the effect of public transportation .
> There's no reason why this can't change, though. Votes can happen to
> change this (and likely will after the next 5 year adjustment)
Once again, you admit that you have not been entirely truthful and that the
system is not quite what you regularly make it out to be.
> State law prohibits this, and it is enforced. Basically, you're lying
> here. All of Portland's urban sprawl in Oregon is within the UGB.
> Vancouver doesn't suffer this problem due to a high sales tax.
Actually that is untrue. According to Mildner state law only creates a
boundary around the metros, however, their outlying suburbs are uneffected,
until Portland expands their boundary to include them they remain uneffected
by the UGB. State law does not prohibit it, and either you are lying, or you
have not done your own homework very well.
> If by "widely supported" you mean the 72 member "Oregonians in Action," a
> small but vocal group of building contractors.
Tends to be supported by families who don't want their homes bulldozed to
make room for higher density developments, low income families trying to get
lower rents near their place of work, and minorities who believe that the
law is actually a subtle racism that keeps minorities out of Portland.
> The joke is buying land for pennies on the dollar in the 1970s and selling
> it for three times as much you paid for it to the Californians. We
> benefit from Californian's gullibility.
So you admit to selling out on the goals of the UGB for profit, or in other
words admit that the UGB is in fact what I had said it was, a real estate
scam benifiting the Portland area's "landed aristocracy" as it were.
> There's no way to enforce that law anymore, and look around the northwest
> in general sometime, it's not just Portland. The Oregon Territories
> region is pretty damn whitebred.
That's because of simple racism that prohibited African and Asian American
settlement in most areas. I certainly hope you're not supporting racism?
> That's what happens when you have a mountain range run through the west
> side (the Tualitin Mountains, or the west hills that Everclear sings
> about).
So you admit that the UGB is not the large factor here and that Portland's
experiment could not be easily reproduced elsewhere.
> SF also enjoys the benefits of having thier UGB strictly enforced by a
> large body of water.
But you do not argue with the fact that you are rapidly making Portland in
effect a "gated community" with no poor and no minorities allowed?
David Fox
David Fox
> Go there sometime. They fit definition 1.
Been there several times and the family used to own a cabin in Alberta, it
was sold to us by a realtor, not the state. The Soviet Union fit definition
one, not Canada.
> Plus, why are you even arguing this? If you don't like the way Oregon and
> Canada runs things, save us all the bother and stay the hell out.
Now we see how it truly is, not want to be bothered with the truth, huh?
David Fox
David Fox
> It does. I admit that. Health care tends to be a bit slow many of the
> eastern cities, and many public services went to crap when they sold them
> to private industry. Canada's realising the mistake of privatising those
> services, it doesn't work for them.
The mistake was in propping them up in the first place, Canada is barely a
first world nation and it is the only one who's industry is actually based
largely on the export of raw and unfinished goods, like most bannana
republics. In fact, many people at the political science department at OSU
have said that Canada will probably lose it's first world status.
Unfortunately, Canada is paying the twice price of nationalization: it
leaves you with impotent and expensive industries in public hands, and after
privatization it leaves you with impotent and expensive industry leaders who
wouldn't know capitalism if it hit them in the eye.
Or possibly you're saying that their business and political leaders are
lightweight wimps that can't handle actually having to run the business of
the nation?
David Fox
David Fox
> Only 26 and 217 inbound. Not quite sure how there can always be so many
> more people going into Portland than leaving it at any hour day or
> night...the rest of the freeways tend to do a pretty steady 50 or 60 MPH
> day or night. It would probably be Seattle bad if we didn't have a
> transit system that works.
Actually, according to ODOT the transit system doesn't work as well as they
like to say it does, noting that the overwhelming majority of Portlanders
drive their cars everywhere.
David Fox
Woggle
(in message <r1eg2a...@ursine.dyndns.org>):
> Woggle <ad...@furworld.org> wrote:
>
>> And traffic circles are the assinine American version, the worst having
>> been
>> Brielle during its deconstruction, it was converted to a four way traffic
>> light controlled intersection with exit ramps(read jughandles)
>
> That's a cloverleaf intersection. They suck only slightly more than
> cloverleaf interchanges...
No, no, partial cloverleaf, some directions can turn left, some use the
jughandle, and others just can't go left. Oh, and it always seems to be
rather random. And the experts wonder why we have so many accidents.
>
> There's only two roundabouts in Beaverton, and they have to remind morons
> to yield to those already in the roundabout with signs, and to keep moving
> once you're in it. The KEEP MOVING signs are more effective than STOP
> signs for getting traffic to come to a full and complete stop after the
> Californian invasion...
-=giggles=- Hey, least there's laws about yours. When they created circles
here, somebody forgot to make laws regarding right of way, rather you get a
free for all going.
>
>
--
-=scritches=-
Woggle greyscale foxtaur and hack writer ta...@furworld.org
ICQ #106685215 Y! redtaur AIM W0ggle
"Live people usually ignore the strange and unusual, I my self am strange and
unusual."-- Lydia, Beetlejuice
FCFt3a A-- C++ D H M++ P+ R++ T W Z+ Sm++ RLRB/AT a cm++ d? e f h- iwf+ j p+
sm+
Woggle
(in message <ApN28.595554$C8.42...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>):
> "cat" <c...@consultant.com> wrote in message
> news:fehm4ukfkrprdcs1j...@4ax.com...
>
>> Hey! Philly is a great place and easy to take over. All you
>> have to do is make a deal with the mob for it since they already own
>> the place.
>
> Nahhhh, just get Giulianni in there for one term. I may have had my quarrels
> with some of his decisions, but the guy's got a set of brass bollocks.
Yeah, I think it'd be fun to see him as mayor somewhere else, I wonder if
things would work differently, after all, every city has its own personality.
>
> I give big-time props to that man, even pre-9/11
Me too. He's a living example of having to choose between democracy and
dictatorship, simply put, do you want freedom or results. People may not like
how he handled things, but no matter, he got the results everybody wanted.
And if you believe the doom and gloom NY Post, its going downhill fast.
> --
> Chazz
SnuHwolF
David Fox <foxd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2i868$8m7$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> "Baloo Ursidae" <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote in message
> news:gu9h2a...@ursine.dyndns.org...
> > It does. I admit that. Health care tends to be a bit slow many of the
> > eastern cities, and many public services went to crap when they sold
them
> > to private industry. Canada's realising the mistake of privatising
those
> > services, it doesn't work for them.
>
> The mistake was in propping them up in the first place, Canada is barely a
> first world nation and it is the only one who's industry is actually based
> largely on the export of raw and unfinished goods, like most bannana
> republics. In fact, many people at the political science department at OSU
> have said that Canada will probably lose it's first world status.
> Unfortunately, Canada is paying the twice price of nationalization: it
> leaves you with impotent and expensive industries in public hands, and
after
> privatization it leaves you with impotent and expensive industry leaders
who
> wouldn't know capitalism if it hit them in the eye.
>
Uh huh.And Ford makes cars & "trucks" there and Dodgge makes real trucks
there...and they're strip mining their forests for softwood to undersell
down here.Yep, no real industries in Canada.LOL! I have maaaany
cousins...many...in ALberta and they say to me Always, "Life is good, you
must visit us." But I say, may I bring my pet guns along? ANd they
reply,"sorry, your guns are not welcome in our country."
So I stay home...and caress my guns.
> Or possibly you're saying that their business and political leaders are
> lightweight wimps that can't handle actually having to run the business of
> the nation?
>
Post proof or retract.
>
SnuHwolF
Thats it.I'm mooving to Lethbridge to be wif cousin Merl...
SnuHwolF
> Montana's still in the rockies for a good part. About the only time I
> care to go east of the rockies is if I'm north of the border. And even
> then, I'm not sure what it is with Québecois and Albertan drivers that
> make them completely insane (Albertans drive like slightly drunk
> Washingtonians so I give them a lot of extra >room...
[....]
They come down here to drink and drive on the weekends.I always give the one
finger wave as they blow by me :o)
SnuHwolF
Ilris <il...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3C4B8D66...@yahoo.com...
> Baloo Ursidae wrote:
>
> > I don't tend to get along with folks south of the 43d parallel and east
of
> > the rockies, unfortunately.
>
> Hmm. That may be bad then. I currently live near Denver, and I've
> never been any part of the world on the west side of the Rockies.
>
Its very bumpy,hth.
SnuHwolF
> "Baloo Ursidae" <ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> wrote in message
> news:kh3h2a...@ursine.dyndns.org...
> > I'm aware that the boundary was moved. It gets moved (inwards in most
> > areas, and out in a few) every 5 years. It's not a perfect system, I
> > know.
>
> So you admit that the system doesn't actually work, per se.
>
> > Northeast Portland has always had this problem, even before the growth
> > boundary. You can't blame it on that.
>
> However, Mildner notes this is a problem with all of Portland.
>
Get a shrink ray?
> > And Portland's population increased by 125% from people moving in from
> > California during the same timespan.
>
> You can't blame California for your own poor planning, sorry.
>
They ran away from LA after Rodney King got beat up...
> > Quote source, please? Worst figures anybody's said, even ODOT, who
always
> > tries to make things look bad to get more funding, is under half that.
>
> NHTSB study on risk factors and the effect of public transportation .
>
Public transportation will never work because of peoples concept that its a
right to drive a SOV (single occupant vehicle) anywhere they choose no
matter how INCREDIBLY ENORMOUS and wasteful it is.Like the new Ford F-350?
WTF is _that_ for????Pulling a mobile home is my guess... If everyone drove
little Austin Mini Coopers the world would be a _much_ better place.HTH
> > There's no reason why this can't change, though. Votes can happen to
> > change this (and likely will after the next 5 year adjustment)
>
> Once again, you admit that you have not been entirely truthful and that
the
> system is not quite what you regularly make it out to be.
>
Beats the "fuck it all, lets sell the land to the highest bidder and throw
what ever we want up with no regard for planning re:traffic, aesthics,
differences in income,basic infastructure like services,etc."
> > State law prohibits this, and it is enforced. Basically, you're lying
> > here. All of Portland's urban sprawl in Oregon is within the UGB.
> > Vancouver doesn't suffer this problem due to a high sales tax.
>
> Actually that is untrue. According to Mildner state law only creates a
> boundary around the metros, however, their outlying suburbs are
uneffected,
> until Portland expands their boundary to include them they remain
uneffected
> by the UGB.
Sounds like Feeniks Arizona.Also known as Tempeh, Maysa, Chandelier....
> State law does not prohibit it, and either you are lying, or you
> have not done your own homework very well.
>
Hmmmmm...
> > If by "widely supported" you mean the 72 member "Oregonians in Action,"
a
> > small but vocal group of building contractors.
>
> Tends to be supported by families who don't want their homes bulldozed to
> make room for higher density developments, low income families trying to
get
> lower rents near their place of work, and minorities who believe that the
> law is actually a subtle racism that keeps minorities out of Portland.
>
The weather is what keeps most minorities out of Portlawnd.It sucks.Its
either raining or its misting or its foggy & slightly overcast.Take your
pick.And if you leave leather outside for a day it gets a lovely green
coating of algae on it.Simply lovely :o)
> > The joke is buying land for pennies on the dollar in the 1970s and
selling
> > it for three times as much you paid for it to the Californians. We
> > benefit from Californian's gullibility.
>
> So you admit to selling out on the goals of the UGB for profit, or in
other
> words admit that the UGB is in fact what I had said it was, a real estate
> scam benifiting the Portland area's "landed aristocracy" as it were.
>
Huh? he's laffing at teh stoopid californicatorses!!! We takes advantage of
em here too :o) UNFORTUNATELY on has managed to become the head of the local
chamber of commerce.*growls*
> > There's no way to enforce that law anymore, and look around the
northwest
> > in general sometime, it's not just Portland. The Oregon Territories
> > region is pretty damn whitebred.
>
> That's because of simple racism that prohibited African and Asian American
> settlement in most areas. I certainly hope you're not supporting racism?
>
Dimbulb Dave strikes agin! Silly foxie...ask Buddy Bear how many folks of
Asian descent live in the area.Tons....I was in *shudder* downtown Portlawnd
in......1986...and there were lots of kewl Chinese restauraunts staffed by
lots of Asian looking people...granted...they may have been Taliban in
disguise but still...
> > That's what happens when you have a mountain range run through the west
> > side (the Tualitin Mountains, or the west hills that Everclear sings
> > about).
>
> So you admit that the UGB is not the large factor here and that Portland's
> experiment could not be easily reproduced elsewhere.
>
I think he said that th' Gee O'Graphy added to the likelyhood thereof, not
was a causal factor therein,hth.It won't happen much of anywhere else
because Oregon as a whole tends to peopled by folks who want to preserve
their lifestyle.Most other areas will sell out in a heartbeat.I admire their
resolve...
> > SF also enjoys the benefits of having thier UGB strictly enforced by a
> > large body of water.
>
> But you do not argue with the fact that you are rapidly making Portland in
> effect a "gated community" with no poor and no minorities allowed?
>
Baloo has singlepawedly made Portlawnd into teh raysist village of the
FILTHY RICH???? Wow, talk about awsum powers.
>
>
SnuHwolF
>
> "SnuhwolF" <JlEnmS...@KAhcKhSbvW.com> wrote in message news:z2K28.20324
> > Its very bizarre how I can be in complete agreement with you at times...
> > Its down-right frightening :o/
>
> I thought you lived in Montana?
>
Yep.But the little quaint town of 6000 people that my grandfather lived in
(and I do now) is becoming another ASSpen type of place.Big ass homes going
up that most of the local hand-to-mouth workers can't afford.Rich hollyweird
types have discovered it and unless you've owned land here for the last 20
odd years you're not going to be able to buy or live & work here unless you
are a semi-resident with a house in Cancun also.The type of growth is strip
zoning with the influx of the big-box stores killing off the locals
shoppes.Many live in cruddy little communities and commute to work here.Lots
of unhappieness to go around :o)
>
David Fox
news:Wf438.20465$Xs4.4...@feed.centurytel.net...
> Post proof or retract.
According to the Department of Commerce heavy government subsidies intended
to encourage employment in Canadian mills is the key force behind the
continuation of the largely failing Canadian lumber industry. The Canadian
government furthermore subsidizes the export of lumber to reduce the price
to vastly below that of the cost of production (often by $70-$80 US per
1000 pounds, which is legally dumping on the market). Government subsidation
and price controls are in place to prevent competition from the third world
and to prevent modernization to cost jobs in the lumber industry as it has
here in the US, furthermore, according to the DOC the cost of producing
lumber in Canada is actually significantly higher than in the United States
but is offset by subsidies payed for by crippling taxes.
According to General Motors the reason many of their vehicles (and this will
likely be the same for Ford) are produced in part in Canada along with many
of their replacement components is because laxer regulations and the
currency difference (Canada operates a dirty float) make it cheaper to
produce them there and import them, a bit like it is done in Mexico.
Furthermore, the Canadian government will absorb many of the costs in the
interest of employing people regardless of the economic capacity of the
nation.
According to statistics available from the Canadian Labour Force Survey show
that the unemployment rate in Canada is around 8% and had a high in the mid
90s of around 10% (or roughly the unemployment rate during most parts of the
Great Depression in the US) not to mention other similar highs throughout
the century. Canada's net investment position currently stands at around
negative 1.4 trillion dollars Canadian (875 billion dollars US). The GDP
stands at approximately $18,125 (US) per capita compared to $31,500 in the
US or the NATO average of around $23,250 in 1998 courtesy Statistics Canada
and the Cato Institute.
David Fox
David Fox
news:pP438.20473$Xs4.4...@feed.centurytel.net...
> Yep.But the little quaint town of 6000 people that my grandfather lived in
> (and I do now) is becoming another ASSpen type of place.Big ass homes
going
> up that most of the local hand-to-mouth workers can't afford.Rich
hollyweird
> types have discovered it and unless you've owned land here for the last 20
> odd years you're not going to be able to buy or live & work here unless
you
> are a semi-resident with a house in Cancun also.The type of growth is
strip
> zoning with the influx of the big-box stores killing off the locals
> shoppes.Many live in cruddy little communities and commute to work
here.Lots
> of unhappieness to go around :o)
Yep yep, not a fan of large scale development like that, but not a fan of
"growth boundaries" either.
Baloo Ursidae
> No, no, partial cloverleaf, some directions can turn left, some use the
> jughandle, and others just can't go left. Oh, and it always seems to be
> rather random. And the experts wonder why we have so many accidents.
Oh, we have that at Baseline and 185th, just the next signal from my
house. But they warn you about this. "SW/NW Lisa Lane, JCT Next Signal.
SW 185th Avenue SOUTHBOUND JCT half mile, NW 185th Avenue NORTHBOUND,
Right 3 Lanes EXIT ONLY 3/4 Mile[1]"
> -=giggles=- Hey, least there's laws about yours. When they created circles
> here, somebody forgot to make laws regarding right of way, rather you get a
> free for all going.
Which is basically how it is here, we just have laws enforcing common
courtesy in a roundabout.
[1] Two auto lanes and a bike lane. Getting right up to the exit, there's
another sign that says "<diamond> NW 185th Ave ONLY" and an arrow pointing
straight, and a sign next to it that says "<diamond> W Baseline Road" with
an exit arrow to the right, which leads you onto a jughandle to put you
perpendicular to the exit with a "KEEP MOVING" sign, the three lanes on
the exit have a "YIELD, cross traffic does not stop" sign. It's less
dangerous than it looks, they haven't had any accidents there since it was
put in.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> Actually, according to ODOT the transit system doesn't work as well as they
> like to say it does, noting that the overwhelming majority of Portlanders
> drive their cars everywhere.
And even ODOT says about 1 in 4 use mass transit, which for any city is
extremely high, with ridership increasing every day (try taking the bus or
train here, they make bang-up business and is standing room only on most
runs during rush hour, even with busses coming every 3-7 minutes, give or
take 2 minutes based on traffic (according to the schedules).
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> Yeah, I think it'd be fun to see him as mayor somewhere else, I wonder if
> things would work differently, after all, every city has its own personality.
If he put his name on the ballot in Portland (and I was still a Portland
voter), I'd vote for him simply to get that asshole Mark Kroeker out of
the Portland Police Chief seat.
> And if you believe the doom and gloom NY Post, its going downhill fast.
What I don't understand is why the lunatics at the New York Times want me
to pay $350 for a year of the Times delivered to Hillsboro, Oregon. I
offer them if they would like me to put them in for a subscription to The
Oregonian, the Portland Tribune or the Hillsboro Argus, since those are
the only papers that anybody around here cares about. But then again, we
like to keep to ourselves in the Northwest and would just as well let
everybody else do thier own thing and be left to do our own thing.
Hence all the "Oregon was bombed and people were killed in the 1940s and
nobody cared" and the "It happened 4000 miles away, get over it!" t-shirts
and bumper stickers that started appearing on 9/12. We got tired of the
endless tirade of news footage for an event that only affected a small
handful of Oregonians being played ad nauseum 9/13, with three pages of
letters to the editor telling the paper to sit down and get on with news
that we actually give a damn about in The Oregonian.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> Yep.But the little quaint town of 6000 people that my grandfather lived in
> (and I do now) is becoming another ASSpen type of place.Big ass homes going
Sounds like you're also suffering through Californication.
--
Baloo
David Fox
> And even ODOT says about 1 in 4 use mass transit, which for any city is
> extremely high, with ridership increasing every day (try taking the bus or
> train here, they make bang-up business and is standing room only on most
> runs during rush hour, even with busses coming every 3-7 minutes, give or
> take 2 minutes based on traffic (according to the schedules).
Standing room only sounds like a safety hazard actually, and I'm not
surprised so many take the bus, after spending %50 of their income to house
themselves, most Potlanders would be hard-pressed to afford a decent car if
they wanted it.
David Fox
Baloo Ursidae
> So you admit that the system doesn't actually work, per se.
No, it works quite well. The only reason it's been moved the last two
times is to adjust for new local restrictions on people being stupid
(building in floodplains, wetlands, sides of hills, etc).
>> And Portland's population increased by 125% from people moving in from
>> California during the same timespan.
>
> You can't blame California for your own poor planning, sorry.
I say we our planning was excellent to have managed to more than double
our population in FIVE YEARS and not more than double the size of the
city. Proof's in the pudding, this system *just works*.
>> Quote source, please? Worst figures anybody's said, even ODOT, who always
>> tries to make things look bad to get more funding, is under half that.
>
> NHTSB study on risk factors and the effect of public transportation .
Oh, good, trust the guys who take money from auto industry lobbyists.
Yeah, like that isn't going against actual, physical results that we're
seeing.
> Once again, you admit that you have not been entirely truthful and that the
> system is not quite what you regularly make it out to be.
No, I've been entirely truthful, I've simply had to straighten out your
claims.
> Actually that is untrue. According to Mildner state law only creates a
> boundary around the metros, however, their outlying suburbs are uneffected,
> until Portland expands their boundary to include them they remain uneffected
> by the UGB. State law does not prohibit it, and either you are lying, or you
> have not done your own homework very well.
How many times do I have to say this? Portland *does not* control the
UGB. Metro District Government does, a totally seperate government,
higher than the counties, lower than the state, with chartered authority
from the state. http://www.metro.dst.or.us/
Look at the growth boundary in Portland. It covers the Portland metro
area excluding the parts in Washington State.
> Tends to be supported by families who don't want their homes bulldozed to
> make room for higher density developments, low income families trying to get
> lower rents near their place of work, and minorities who believe that the
> law is actually a subtle racism that keeps minorities out of Portland.
Minority groups have supported Metro in thier planning, as they turned
around the Killingsworth and
Railroad/Union/MLK/whatever-it's-called-this-year Neighborhood without
increasing the rents. And Mayor Vera Katz and large groups of citizens
would bend the ears of Metro District so hard it would be heard at the
State Capital in Salem without an amp or telephone if Metro was being
racist, Mayor Katz is *very* intollerant of intollerance. She got close
to all the minority vote in Portland when she was elected and re-elected.
> So you admit to selling out on the goals of the UGB for profit, or in other
> words admit that the UGB is in fact what I had said it was, a real estate
> scam benifiting the Portland area's "landed aristocracy" as it were.
Only the farmers that have been inside the boundary, and they've been
selling thier land for several hundred thousand times the market value of
the land. I don't think giving stupid people a hard fucking is supporting
any aristocracy.
> That's because of simple racism that prohibited African and Asian American
> settlement in most areas. I certainly hope you're not supporting racism?
How dare you accuse me of that. Between you're complete lack of clue with
urban planning that actually works, and your scathing insults, you're in
the killfile. YHL, HAND.
> So you admit that the UGB is not the large factor here and that Portland's
> experiment could not be easily reproduced elsewhere.
Not in the United States, mostly because for the most part the US hasn't
even considered thinking about the future when it comes to urban planning,
hence vast sprawling cities like LA and NY.
> But you do not argue with the fact that you are rapidly making Portland in
> effect a "gated community" with no poor and no minorities allowed?
Yes, I'm going to have to argue with that, since I've managed to live here
for three months on less than $20/day doing odd-jobs until I found a job
again, without turning to emergency food stamps, we have multiple black
furs in Portland, I regularly see people of all ethnicities (especially
Hispanics and Asians in Hillsboro) on a daily basis.
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> They come down here to drink and drive on the weekends.I always give the one
> finger wave as they blow by me :o)
So you know what I'm saying, then. They're pretty good drivers, if not
leadfoots, in northern Alberta, now that I think back to my roadtrip
across western Canada. I wonder if it's a Calgary thing?
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> *giggle* I was just kidding but imo socialisim is better than
> Capitalism.
Capitalism: The fastest way to fuck someone out of money, worldwide.
Capitalism may work on very small scales, but get past a villiage and some
numbnuts decides they want all the money, and figures out ways to screw
people out of more money than their products are worth. Fortunately, much
of the rest of the world realised this and put in fairly strict controls
on business practices. Now if the US would figure that out...
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> cousins...many...in ALberta and they say to me Always, "Life is good, you
> must visit us." But I say, may I bring my pet guns along? ANd they
> reply,"sorry, your guns are not welcome in our country."
> So I stay home...and caress my guns.
And people wonder why the rest of the world looks at us like we're the
weird drunken neighbor that starts firing randomly every time someone
looks at thier house wrong...
--
Baloo
Baloo Ursidae
> Its very bumpy,hth.
Just curious, why do you never post with a valid address, and end every
post with "hope this helps?"
--
Baloo
cat
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> purred:
>cat <c...@consultant.com> wrote:
>
>> No they don't and no they aren't.
>
>By thier own claims, they're socialist. By London's claims, all
>commonwealths are socialist. By the UN listings, Canada's got the best
>standard of living anywhere in the world.
>
>Mind backing up your claim, please?
Canada and the UK are Parliamentary democracies. They may have
something like the Labour party in charge from time to time but the
govt structure is not, at core, socialist. They merely have some
aspects and services socialized. The US in not socialist despite such
"socialist" components as welfare and social security. look at the
core govt, not the party in power to determine a governmental form.
There are literally thousands of "standard of living" lists
and almost as many countries at the top, depending on which you
believe. A declining economy virtually precludes being at the top and
Canada, regrettably, has a declining economy. The majority of the
"standard of living" charts put Sweden at the top. Others have the
view that Japan is in the lead and some even put the US at the top.
About all the lists do agree on is the fact that a large number of
countries certainly are not in contention.
cat
cat
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> purred:
>David Fox <foxd...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No offense Baloo, but you've got to be pretty ignorant not to miss the fact
>> that Canada has glaring problems.
>
>It does. I admit that. Health care tends to be a bit slow many of the
>eastern cities, and many public services went to crap when they sold them
>to private industry. Canada's realising the mistake of privatising those
>services, it doesn't work for them.
The privatization in the US has also been disastrous. there
are some things government does do better than others and providing
specific public services (especially Police, Prisons, infrastructure
and refuse collection) are among them. Privatization often ends up
being more an excuse to do worse work at the same or higher cost.In
some thing private enterprise is the way to go but some things just
work better with the existing system.
cat
cat
<ba...@ursine.dyndns.org> purred:
>Relee <rel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
You have it reversed. On a small scale (agrarian)
communism/socialism is probably the best system because there all jobs
are as close to equal as possible, costs are spread among a number of
people (have you looked at the cost of farm equipment lately? No
wonder small farms are closing. What individual can afford those
insane prices) and with proper crop scheduling it can be a self
sustaining system.
However when it gets large or tries to industrialize it falls
apart. that is the great tragedy of it. The most caring system is one
which can only care for small numbers at a time.
cat
Cirrus Kain
THE OPIUM PUDDING!!!!!
Don't mind me, I have to do that where ever someone says that. It's like a
whole Pavlov's Wolf thing.
-CK