Info and help needed - species dysphoria
Ron Orr... & Tirran
simultaneously by at least two furs) has been coming up a lot in my life
lately, and I've decided that it's a Cause I'm well-equipped to take up
because it strikes right at home for me.
But I'm low on information. I need your help, gentlefurs. If you
feel genuinely and completely that you live in the wrong body, not 'I
feel an affinity for' but 'I have to be, to be happy', if you have _any_
insight into this, or know of a resource on or offline that has some
good information, please put your thoughts down and post them here or to
my email address. I want to start off with a Web site first, before I
decide if perhaps it's worth taking offline.
I'm deadly serious, people. Something in my gut tells me it's
time to let others know that we aren't just playing around or
fantasising, that the transspecied deserve the same consideration as the
transgendered. The worst that could happen is nothing; the best, that we
get someone thinking that, just maybe, something could be done to change
us into what we need to be.
Thank you all kindly...
Tir'
Farlo
<1dnxmol.1o5...@hunt-annex-port28.vianet.on.ca>:
>'I have to be, to be happy',
"I have to be or have 'x' to be happy" seems a bit much for me.
I have food, shelter and friends. The rest is extra.
Nonetheless,
good luck on the new project!
Farlo
Alexander Rakune
& Tirran) wrote:
> I'm deadly serious, people. Something in my gut tells me it's
>time to let others know that we aren't just playing around or
>fantasising, that the transspecied deserve the same consideration as the
>transgendered. The worst that could happen is nothing; the best, that we
>get someone thinking that, just maybe, something could be done to change
>us into what we need to be.
>
> Thank you all kindly...
>
>Tir'
If it were possible that would be great, but with the all the flak
homosexuals are recieving these days (just one instance) I can imagine
how ell it will be recieved. Screw em though, go for it! you have to
start somewhere.
Flep Rakune
(hotmail) I havent read it myself yet but here it is:
hello tirran. i doubt that you'll remember me, but weve actually met
once
before. i shared a room with Alex, Kimba, and Tim Gadd at the albany
anthrocon
in 97. i was the one going by flep. its not really important though.
the
reason im writing is that alex sent me a post you must have recently
made to
ALF. im not active on ALF personally. i tried about a year and a half
or so
ago and couldnt keep up. but alex knew that this one would interest me
personally.....
like a lot furs, when i stumbled across all of this- ALF, furry art,
conventions, chat rooms, ect ect, i was sort of stunned..... i didnt
know
there was ANYONE that felt the way i did. i had a classically furry
profile
though i was unaware of the fact that it _was_ furry (it was just me),
on aol
and Alex found it by during a search, thus accidently introducing me
to the
whole community, so to speak. prior to this i had always felt,
fundementally,
displaced as a human being. there has never been a moment in my life
when i
felt so at home with my humanity that i wouldnt trade it in an instant
for
even a brief existence as something else.
the other night i was writing a letter to a friend, a non-furry person
that
ive known for many years and who is largely aware of my feelings. i
was trying
to explain them to him in better terms and i thought i had done a
little
better job than in the past so i sent an exerpt from the letter to
alex and i
think thats why he sent me your post- the one about the "transpecies"
thing. i
think i had never really considered it in those terms... but it really
is an
interesting thought. it certainly sums up my feelings well.
i dont have any idea why i am the way i am, but i honestly, truely
have longed
all my life on a very deep level for something that i cant have- that
release
that would only be possible by shedding the human part of me. the
following is
the exerpt i mentioned before from the letter i sent to my friend. i
just
thought i would mail it to you as well. i thought your post was very
interesting, and i hope to be kept up to date on your thoughts. take
care.
"id still give up my whole life and everything in it to live a quarter
of the
time as a fox, a raccoon, a red panda, a wolf, ect. sometimes i go to
the park
and i watch the sun set and listen to the wind in the trees and im
there for
just a split second and i KNOW that this is true more than anything
else i
have ever felt or said in my life. i have no illusions about that
life- it
would be hard and painful and lonely and from a human perspective it
would be
without any of the "reasons" we attribute to existence. though animals
communicate, beyond the shadow of a doubt, they dont "converse." they
dont
share ideas the way we do. they dont have the same concept of lasting
importance and the drive to create and destroy that we do. they have
thier own
intelligence which survives in the moment and asks only questions
essential to
the moment. they live and they die and no one remembers them or what
they did.
they just are. but when i look at the stars at night or hear thunder
or watch
the sun set or rain fall, or listen to the wind, these being the only
things
that have ever really seemed REAL or beautiful to me, i realize, and
heres the
seed of it all, that to be human means to _see_ beauty and to
experience it,
and to be a fox is to BE beauty, to BE real. not to be outside of it.
we are
the only things in the world that are at odds WITH the world. our
existence is
a detriment to our own environment and everything that shares it with
us, and
this alone is the greatest testament to our outsideness..... and thats
how i
think when im driving my car, or when im working, or when im making
music, or
when im writing a letter- all the time. and thats why i am so
alienated from
the rest of the world. i have the basic human need to be a part of the
human
whole, to have friends and to be accepted, but im not built right on a
fundemental level and consequently everything seems superficial and
shallow to
me. even myself ; )"
flep
you can reach Flep at the same addy as mine-...@hotmail.com
Flep Rakune
wrote:
>I'm posting this for my friend Flep who's off-line for the most part
>(hotmail) I havent read it myself yet but here it is:
Ooops, sorry if a lot of that was a repeat, i'm sending Flep the
earlier replies :)
Polenth
>This subject (whose name seems to have been coined
>simultaneously by at least two furs) has been coming up a lot in my life
>lately, and I've decided that it's a Cause I'm well-equipped to take up
>because it strikes right at home for me.
>
> But I'm low on information. I need your help, gentlefurs. If you
>feel genuinely and completely that you live in the wrong body, not 'I
>feel an affinity for' but 'I have to be, to be happy', if you have _any_
>insight into this, or know of a resource on or offline that has some
>good information, please put your thoughts down and post them here or to
>my email address. I want to start off with a Web site first, before I
>decide if perhaps it's worth taking offline.
You need to work on your description a bit. I don't need to be a dragon
to be happy, because I'm the sort of person who accepts what I have, and
doesn't get all het up about things I can't have. But I am a dragon in a
human body. I have sporadic problems with coordination due to my limbs
being the wrong proportion and arrangement, and continous phantom limb
feelings. 'Limb' is probably an understatment. I can feel my wing
membranes and tail, and usually the claws on my foot, the addition
digits on my hand, and my horns. I haven't written anything about it,
although I was going to write something for my website at some point. If
I ever finish it, I'll let you know.
> I'm deadly serious, people. Something in my gut tells me it's
>time to let others know that we aren't just playing around or
>fantasising, that the transspecied deserve the same consideration as the
>transgendered. The worst that could happen is nothing; the best, that we
>get someone thinking that, just maybe, something could be done to change
>us into what we need to be.
I've been thinking about this too. It really came from going to
university, and reading through the list of support groups, which
needless to say didn't have anything about transspecism in it.
--
Polenth
ICQ UIN: 8342844 | Clan Stormcrest
http://www.polenth.demon.co.uk/
DC.D Pf CDP a- d+++ WL+* L14f Balkali f e! m-
Ricochet
> But I'm low on information. I need your help, gentlefurs. If you
> feel genuinely and completely that you live in the wrong body, not 'I
> feel an affinity for' but 'I have to be, to be happy', if you have _any_
> insight into this, or know of a resource on or offline that has some
> good information, please put your thoughts down and post them here or to
> my email address.
The beauty of Anthropomorphics helped me get over species dysphoria. As
I grew up, I always thought I was in the wrong place. Why would I long
for something so different if that weren't the case?
As time went on, I felt more and less strongly about giving up
everything just so I could be HAPPY. I think *satisfaction* is the
better choice of words, because a lot of things make me happy. My
friends, my career track, my family. Those things made me happy. Yet, I
was devoid of *satisfaction*. I was going through all those paces and
living with what I had knowing there was someplace else I should be.
I tried to stop it, and rationalized that I had been trying to live a
fantasy that would never happen. It was nice state of mind for three
whole days until it all crashed down upon me. I said I was living a lie,
when in reality, I was living the truth, but lying to myself about it.
I found the internet furry world, and after a few months of noodling I
discovered what I should have known all along. I never saw myself as
anything other than a four-legger, but Anthropomorphics changed all
that. Yeah! You can be what you are, and see what you KNOW you are,
you'll just continue to be sans appearence! Humans with this much animal
in them are genuine anthropomorphic beings!
Therefore, I knew I was a dog in here, only I have the humanity in my
head. It's what I've done with the combined awareness that makes the
difference. This eliminated the hardcore "longing" for a physical shape.
I'm happy to be what I am now. Fur, a tail, they're all a bonus.
-Ricochet
DawnWolf
>"Ron Orr... & Tirran" griz...@vianet.on.ca wrote in
><1dnxmol.1o5...@hunt-annex-port28.vianet.on.ca>:
>
>>'I have to be, to be happy',
>
>"I have to be or have 'x' to be happy" seems a bit much for me.
>I have food, shelter and friends. The rest is extra.
Food, shelter and friends is good. And for most, enough. What do you
do, however, when you find that your soul truly does not match your
body? Bloody uncomfortable, is what it is ... such people are driven.
"Zwei Seelen, ach!, wohnen in meiner Brust ..." ("Faust", Goethe)
I haven't met anyone like that, and luckily for me, I as well can be
happy enough as a human (though I'd take a chance to go morph without
much of a second thought) ... but that's not to say this will be the
case for everyone.
And, no, I don't think "Get a life, get a love" is the answer, either.
Both make happy, but the underlying dichotomy remains.
DawnWolf
--
"I wish I was a hunter, in search of different food.
I wish I was the animal, which fits into that mood.
I wish I was a person, with unlimited breath.
I wish I was a heartbeat, that never comes to rest." ("Lola rennt" Soundtrack)
Chris Johnson
> "Ron Orr... & Tirran" griz...@vianet.on.ca wrote in
> <1dnxmol.1o5...@hunt-annex-port28.vianet.on.ca>:
>
> >'I have to be, to be happy',
>
> "I have to be or have 'x' to be happy" seems a bit much for me.
> I have food, shelter and friends. The rest is extra.
I sympathize with the reservations people are having, but have a slight
shift in meaning that makes it work for me:
"I have to _accept_ 'x' to be happy." For me that's being very deeply
cat people- only when I learned to really accept this about myself did I
start having more happiness, and even be able to endure a lot more stress
in my life, that I would not have been able to cope with before.
I have no idea if I'd be still happier in a cat body- I've taken to
thinking that my body already _is_ very catlike for a nekkidmonkey ;) so
it doesn't bother me so much. Species dysphoria is quite a mystery- for
myself, I worked out very logical and solid reasons why I benefitted from
viewing myself as a cat rather than a maladjusted human, and the reason I
worked out these reasons was because I needed to be able to explain my
resulting approach to other people who were _not_ cat people, or even
dsyphoric in any way.
This is because it's not an option for me to banish or shut off all
cat-behaviors or catlike reactions and biases, so I felt I ought to put
some effort into being able to explain it, rather than just be stubborn
and eccentric :)
Jinx_tigr
(aka Chris Johnson)
Farlo
<36d98cd4...@news.fur.com>:
>Farlo <stan...@abac.com> wrote:
>>"I have to be or have 'x' to be happy" seems a bit much for me.
>>I have food, shelter and friends. The rest is extra.
>
>Food, shelter and friends is good. And for most, enough. What do you
>do, however, when you find that your soul truly does not match your
>body?
There are levels upon levels of reality.
Somewhere among the permutations of existence, I sit at a keyboard similar
to this one, *click clacking* on the keyboard with small scaly paws ...
the fact that this poor human incarnation is aware of himself in other
higher realms is a testament to my illumination, as it were. I am a
dragon, physically, somewhere in the continuum. In this specific cluster
of dimensions that I share with you, I have a human body and a draconic
mind heavily influenced by human things. eh. All of your incarnations
cannot be identical, though they can be very similar. I am sure that in
some dimension, I am pure literal monkey. =P Eep, eep.
Sometime I must wonder how many permutations of me can sit in the same
chair. Likely, it's a variable.
If this is all unclear, ponder this statement to reach my current frame of
mind:
"There are no probabilities. Each permutation of reality (a probability
of occurance) is representative of a reality contiguous to our own.
Distinct, yet similar, our experiences fluctuate among a subset of the
infinite permutations like the layers of skin on an onion. In fact, the
prime experience of now is merely the a reference point and not at all
prime in any meaningful sense."
That still doesn't help much, does it?
Well, knowing is better to being than simply wishing, IMO.
Visualization is a good, good start.
>I haven't met anyone like that, and luckily for me, I as well can be
>happy enough as a human (though I'd take a chance to go morph without
>much of a second thought) ... but that's not to say this will be the
>case for everyone.
I'm not happy as Human, but I am happy as me - this subset of variations
in the continuum of reality. I grow, change and resonate among my
frequencies. =)
>And, no, I don't think "Get a life, get a love" is the answer, either.
>Both make happy, but the underlying dichotomy remains.
Our lives are infinite, without a start and an end. There are beginnings
and endings among the permutations, however, an that is what people would
call death. Whole subsets of me have similar endings, a truism that is.
Worrying about one subset of a cluster is passive. I recommend seeking
outlets for such worry. Art is but one. Specific areas of study in
science are another. Fan interests are yet a third.
In summary, "Why yes, a web page is a great idea" but happiness is mostly
attitude. I suffered from Depression for too many years not to learn that
lesson.
Farlo
Tim Gadd
I really wish you would grace this newsgroup with more of your
writing, Flep. This one really was quite exceptional.
>i realize, and heres the seed of it all, that to be human means
>to _see_ beauty and to experience it, and to be a fox is to BE beauty,
> to BE real. not to be outside of it.
Especially that. Should perhaps end up in a sig. I'd be tempted to add
something to the effect that humans are beautiful too (tragic-comic
beautiful), but part of the human condition may be an inability to see
it in oneself (arrogance and species pride having subsituted for this
in the past.) But this would really clutter it up too much. Yours is
nice.
--
Tim Gadd | Lupercal .com
Hobart, Tasmania | @wolf-web
Sarsha's Plush Page: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Canopy/1944/
'People are under the misapprehension that the brain is
situated in the human head. Nothing could be further from
the truth. It is carried by the wind from the Caspian Sea'
- Nikolai Gogol: Diary of a Madman
Kimba W. Lion
> Something in my gut tells me it's
>time to let others know that we aren't just playing around or
>fantasising, that the transspecied deserve the same consideration as the
>transgendered.
This isn't the answer you want, but I've got to let it out anyway.
I've talked myself out of any such feelings. For one thing, being a lion
in this country means being a "thing" whose life can be terminated in an
instant whenever Boss Hogg decides he covets a piece of land. Being a lion
in Africa means all your kind are trying as hard as they can to evolve
maneless males just so they won't be so damn attractive to trophy hunters.
But being who I am means accepting all that I have been given in this life
--and it is a lot--and part of that just might be the ability to do
something about the injustices I named and others too. I've already
experienced the feeling that "I sure miss being a lion"; I can't bear the
thought of a future where _nobody_ gets to be a lion, or a tiger (_that_
future is almost upon us).
An animal's life is just about as close to worthless to our civilization
as you can get. But, like the fabled asteroid destined to impact with
Earth, that only needs to be deflected a fraction of a degree if you can
get to it soon enough, I think there is enough collective power in the
meek and mild, shy and retiring, scattered and diffuse furry community to
make a difference. This world and its civilizations will go on long after
I cease to be a part of it; maybe I've been given humanness and furriness
as tools to make it a little bit better for those who join it later.
Of course, that's my path. It's possible your path could awaken some
people to the kinship of all life, which would be a marvelous thing. So,
I'm not saying what you want is a bad thing, I just wanted to explain why
I don't have the answer you're looking for.
Kimba
Bussaca2
like a lot furs, when i stumbled across all of this- ALF, furry art,
conventions, chat rooms, ect ect, i was sort of stunned..... i didnt
know
there was ANYONE that felt the way i did. i had a classically furry
profile
though i was unaware of the fact that it _was_ furry (it was just me),
on aol
and Alex found it by during a search, thus accidently introducing me
to the
whole community, so to speak. prior to this i had always felt,
fundementally,
displaced as a human being. there has never been a moment in my life
when i
felt so at home with my humanity that i wouldnt trade it in an instant
for
even a brief existence as something else. ,,<<
I am at tears man, this sum up everything in my life right there... i haven't
had the pleasure to go to any cons but i'll be at Arthro99 at vally forge, if
your there ill see ya
*Wipes off a tear*
whew you blew me away i could never put it into words.
Michael Mann
: This subject (whose name seems to have been coined
: simultaneously by at least two furs) has been coming up a lot in my life
: lately, and I've decided that it's a Cause I'm well-equipped to take up
: because it strikes right at home for me.
: But I'm low on information. I need your help, gentlefurs. If you
: feel genuinely and completely that you live in the wrong body, not 'I
: feel an affinity for' but 'I have to be, to be happy', if you have _any_
: insight into this, or know of a resource on or offline that has some
: good information, please put your thoughts down and post them here or to
: my email address. I want to start off with a Web site first, before I
: decide if perhaps it's worth taking offline.
: I'm deadly serious, people. Something in my gut tells me it's
: time to let others know that we aren't just playing around or
: fantasising, that the transspecied deserve the same consideration as the
: transgendered. The worst that could happen is nothing; the best, that we
: get someone thinking that, just maybe, something could be done to change
: us into what we need to be.
: Thank you all kindly...
: Tir'
I understand what you mean by, "I have to be, to be happy"
It's not that I don't value human potential or accomplishment. But I
would trade it to be a rat. It's something that I can't explain in
a rational manner.
As bad as society treats animals, and as bad as an animals life is, as
far as lacking many human securities and comoforts. It is just something
that I would find as more appealing way to live.
Feel free to drop me a mail at agent0 /\t eskimo com.
-Raigo
Whisper
>
>feel genuinely and completely that you live in the wrong body, not 'I
>feel an affinity for' but 'I have to be, to be happy', if you have _any_
>insight into this, or know of a resource on or offline that has some
>good information, please put your thoughts down and post them here or to
>my email address. I want to start off with a Web site first, before I
>decide if perhaps it's worth taking offline.
Hello Tirran. I'm afraid I don't have much information to offer about
species dysphoria. I can give you tons of stuff on gender dysphoria but I'm
not sure you would find that very useful.
What I can do is offer you understanding. As someone who is gender
dysphoric and would give up everything that were mine to be a fox I honestly
say I know how you feel.
That probably doesn't help, but if you want to talk my E-mail is always
open.
Jessica Whisper Foxx
AeroFox
>
> This subject (whose name seems to have been coined
> simultaneously by at least two furs) has been coming up a lot in my life
> lately, and I've decided that it's a Cause I'm well-equipped to take up
> because it strikes right at home for me.
>
> feel genuinely and completely that you live in the wrong body, not 'I
> feel an affinity for' but 'I have to be, to be happy', if you have _any_
> insight into this, or know of a resource on or offline that has some
> good information, please put your thoughts down and post them here or to
> my email address. I want to start off with a Web site first, before I
> decide if perhaps it's worth taking offline.
>
> time to let others know that we aren't just playing around or
> fantasising, that the transspecied deserve the same consideration as the
> transgendered. The worst that could happen is nothing; the best, that we
> get someone thinking that, just maybe, something could be done to change
> us into what we need to be.
>
> Thank you all kindly...
>
> Tir'
Hiyas,
I know i'm somewhat a stranger to these parts but I feel I should reply.
I don't know if this will help any at all..but here it is.
This subject hits right at home for me too. All my life I have felt that
there
was somthing different about me. Through my early years I didn't know
what to
think of it. I felt that I wanted to be somthing different but wasn't
sure
what...as time went by I felt that I should be canine. For a while I
thought
it was dog...am I supposed to be a German Shepard? Dalmatian? Greyhound?
They worked for a while but I could sense that wasn't quite right.
It was in 1981 that I finally discovered that i'm a fox...a North
American
red fox.
In the spring of 1981 It all started to gel in my little brain. I
started
thinking fox, but then I saw Disney's "The Fox and the Hound" on July
11, 1981.
I felt like I was hit with a ton of bricks!!..I figured out what I
really was.
Figuring it out was one hurdle...a big one...but still here I was....in
this
human body....what was I to do? I didn't know...I tried drawing myself
as I
felt I should look like...spent lots of time in a small pop-up camper
parked
on my mother's property. rode my bicycle many many miles through the
summer.
Wishing...hopeing...wanting...crying...wondering what to do!
I was 12 at the time....I eventually felt a little better but it
was always with me through the following years. I so desperatly wanted
to _be_
a red fox.
In 1988 Disney re-released F&H...it was back..I hadn't seen it in 7
years.
after seeing it again I went into a deep depression....I couldn't eat.
couldn't hold anything down. I was constantly crying. I was a mess.
I don't know how exactly but I managed to pull out and get myself back
on level
again...I guess I concentrated on other things to get my mind off of it.
it wasn't easy..but I got better. It never went away.
it was always with me..I would buy anything that was fox
related...books,
Figurines, posters, pictures, calendars.
I spent many nights before I went to sleep thinking about it wanting SO
MUCH
to wake in the morning as a fox....waking the next morning
realizing....i'm still
human. *sigh*
I kept going...taking many walks in the woods over the years..wishing
there was
a way. Also wishing there was a way to have a vixen for a mate.
OOH! how I wanted to have a vixen mate! I still do! Ive never really had
any
relationship. Dated a few times. but nothing ever evolved. so many times
I wished
there was a girl...somewhere..who felt exactly as I do...But I told
myself that
it was crazy to think there could be others like me.
well, January 97 I found "furry fandom" on the internet and soon found
I'm not alone!
It really made a difference in my life! It was hard to really accept at
first
could this really be real? Others feel as I do? it blew my mind big
time.
But now as I have found so many friends....so many wonderful friends..It
really helps!
Though in some ways it has made it harder on me. I used to think it was
impossible to
find a girl who might feel as I do...and become close. Now I know its
possible
but still improbable...There are so few females in "furry" and most, if
not all,
are already attached, mated, married, uninterested...etc.
Anyhow I think I fit into the term "Species dysphoria" I'm also a zoo
which I feel
is just another facet of this "problem" or whatever you want to call it.
I wish I had more information about it. I have told some cose friends
about it and
one is a "Clinical Psychologist" I could talk to him more about it since
he does
understand and says that its not a mental illness. Its just the way we
are.
I'm really sorry for this verbose letter....I don't know if I did any
good sending
this out...but I feel I needed to say somthing.
Its not easy being a fox stuck in a human body...not easy at all.
There is more info about me on my webpage in my sig'
Thanks
AeroFox
--
http://www.bright.net/~geary/aerofox/
FCF4a A+ C++ D+++ H+++ M+ P+++ R+++ T+++ W Z Sm RLCT/RB a cn++ d e+
f++++ h* iwf+ j p+ sm
AeroFox
Whisper
>I went overboard......didn't i? sorry
>
>AeroFox
Nonsense. *Hughughug*
Jessica Whisper Foxx
Duncan da Husky
>I went overboard......didn't i? sorry
Absolutely not. It was good reading, and I've saved it to read over again.
<*hugs*>
-Duncan da Husky, who happy to see the huggyfox back 'round Homestead
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Brady dun...@uncia.com http://www.technomancer.com/~duncan
Furry: Duncan da Husky SCA: Duncan MacKinnon of Tobermory
"The acceptable response to homosexuality is not 'It's OK, it's not
your choice,' or even, 'It's OK, it *is* your choice,'
but rather, 'So?'" - Amy Gorin
MoonSong01
>I know i'm somewhat a stranger to these parts but I feel I should reply.
>I don't know if this will help any at all..but here it is.
Well, come on in and sit down! :)
>It was in 1981 that I finally discovered that i'm a fox...a North
>American red fox.
Then you're in good company ... lots of foxes around here.
>But now as I have found so many friends....so many wonderful friends..It
>really helps!
Glad to hear it! *hug*
>There are so few females in "furry" and most, if not all,
>are already attached, mated, married, uninterested...etc.
I think there are more female furries, proportionally, than there are female
gamers ... that's a guess, though ... anyway, don't give up hope!
>I'm really sorry for this verbose letter....I don't know if I did any
>good sending this out...but I feel I needed to say somthing.
Don't be sorry! That's what Homestead is for; and if you needed to say it,
then you did some good all right--to you, if no one else, and no harm to anyone
as far as I can see. So there's no apology necessary.
MoonSinger
You can't take the wolf out of me, but you have to take it out of my address to
reach me.
Smrgol
moons...@aol.comwolf (MoonSong01) writes:
>I think there are more female furries, proportionally, than there are female
>gamers ... that's a guess, though ... anyway, don't give up hope!
Where are they then? };>~
Still single and approaching 45 very fast! I'd like to meet someone!
Smrgol
~\ /\ /~ Life is too important to be taken seriously.
{o\/o}
\ / Remove xyzzy in E-Mail
oo (You're at the end of the road again)
||
FDDhp3aA--C-DH+M-PR+T+++W--Z-SmSRLATa++C++nde++h*i+p*sm-
D.Jean Cooper
Smrgol wrote:
> In article <19990305192100...@ngol03.aol.com>,
> moons...@aol.comwolf (MoonSong01) writes:
>
> >I think there are more female furries, proportionally, than there are female
> >gamers ... that's a guess, though ... anyway, don't give up hope!
>
> Where are they then? };>~
>
> Still single and approaching 45 very fast! I'd like to meet someone!
>
>
> Smrgol
<VBEFG> You coming to AC, Smrgol? (turned 40 in Dec) -Walk in Balance
Ambergold Wolfeyes
SCA: Lady Aelfreda O'Llyn Ewig
--
D.Jean Cooper
dcooperatinavdotnet
Smrgol
I'm gonna do my darndest to be there!
Looking forward to meeting everyone!
MoonSong01
>>I think there are more female furries, proportionally, than there are female
>>gamers ... that's a guess, though ... anyway, don't give up hope!
>Where are they then? };>~
Right here! I'm basing my guess partly on the number of females I saw at
Anthrocon, but mostly--and this may make it inaccurate--the number of furs
here posting under female names/identities who haven't mentioned that they're
not, IRL, female-bodied.
Nevis
> AeroFox <ge...@bright.net> writes:
>
>> I spent many nights before I went to sleep thinking about it wanting
>> SO MUCH to wake in the morning as a fox....waking the next morning
>> realizing....i'm still human. *sigh*
I've been species dysphoric all of my forty-one years of life, and I
continually experience the same feelings; it is intensely frustrating. For
me, the species most natural is the American black bear. I hope I won't
offend anyone if I say that I feel far greater kinship and understanding
with the bears than I do with humans.
I recently discovered that I could relieve a little bit of the anxiety by
playing a bear on a muck. I've been more at ease (but still far from
satisfied) since I began doing that.
None of the furry-oriented mucks that I've visited give me the experience of
living in the wild which I seek. They tend to be too anthropomorphic,
mythical and magical; which doesn't appeal to me. I desire a more realistic
experience. So I'm trying a new tactic; I'm creating a muck which is going
to be intended to give an experience of living as a wild animal as
realistically as I can possibly make it. It's going to have graphics so
that you won't have to be limited to text descriptions; you'll actually be
able to see what is around you and interact with it. And you can look like
a fox (or wolf, or bear, or whatever) to others, if you wish. The theme is
North America before the arrival of humans; it is a domain of wildlife only.
Construction is just barely beginning, so there is nothing to see there yet.
If anyone reading this likes the idea and would like to contribute to the
muck's development, you can get more info at the muck's web page at
www.livingwild.com
It's far from the ideal solution for species dysphoria, but until species
reassignment technology becomes available, it might provide a means to
relieve at least some of the anxiety.
Nevis
Lucas
<7kwNGUBm...@polenth.demon.co.uk>...
> I've been thinking about this too. It really came from going to
> university, and reading through the list of support groups, which
> needless to say didn't have anything about transspecism in it.
Wouldn't you just know it? They would just leave out some of the really
important stuff...
------------------------------------------------------------
http://web.triton.net/lukeld/Rhome.htm
FRR6amr A- C- D H+ M+ P++++ R T W Z !S RLU a- c++ d? e* f h* iwf++ j p++ sm
Nevis
>> "Nevis" <zzzz_...@livingwild.com> writes:
>> None of the furry-oriented mucks that I've visited give me the experience
of
>> living in the wild which I seek. They tend to be too anthropomorphic,
>> mythical and magical; which doesn't appeal to me.
Oecherwolf replied in message <7c6bs3$2kn$1...@lykos.canis>...
>My reason for not being on a MUCK is similar... Though I can try to play
>a wolf, it'll always be role playing which I'm not interested in. Plus
>there are too few words to describe wolf communication in human language.
>It gives me a recursion problem: a wolf in a human body playing a wolf
>that uses human language...
Interestingly, I was considering the communication issue today prior to
reading your message. It's got me pondering perhaps doing something really
radical for an online site. Suppose, while they are in character, the
players can only use the forms of communication which are natural for their
species? Use of text communications might actually be disabled. You would
have to use such things as facial expression, body posture, ear position,
tail movement, and whatever sounds your vocal system and animal brain could
produce. By working under these conditions, it might be rather enlightening
as to the differences in the ways in which non-humans perceive the world,
and challenging to try to find ways to communicate what you wish to say.
What I have in mind would require improved technology over what is commonly
in use, since it would require heavy use of graphical and audible
information; use of text would be minimal. I am working on finding ways to
make these technical improvements. Some compromising would also have to be
made for species such as bears and wolves, which depend heavily on their
sense of smell as well as sight and sound. That part would probably have to
be fudged with text.
Perhaps it would be a bit less like role playing if the virtual environment
could effectively put you in the body of your character's species, with all
of its capabilities, limitations, and requirements for survival. You would
feel hunger, and if you're a wolf, you would have to hunt something down and
kill it, or starve. You would have to deal with natural elements like
weather and rivers. Others of your species might try to usurp your
territory, or push you down in the pack hierarchy. And all of this would be
occuring without any human language being spoken.
It's an interesting adventure, exploring the possibilities...
Nevis
Robert Four-eyes Parish
> This subject (whose name seems to have been coined
>simultaneously by at least two furs) has been coming up a lot in my life
>lately, and I've decided that it's a Cause I'm well-equipped to take up
>because it strikes right at home for me.
I was one of those who started to use that term on my own. I had came
across the term "gender dysphoria" in the book "Gay, Straight and in
Between" (by sexologist John Money, I believe). "Species dysphoria"
seemed an apt phrase to me, and when I used it among others in this
fandom, they understood it readily. I coined it because I was looking
for ways to cut across the lines dividing the rival camps of ALF
furries and AHWW werewolves at the time. I was looking for words not
tainted by association with one side or another (like "personal furry"
or "therianthrope").
I would like to introduce for your consideration a similar concept:
"temporal dysphoria". I was familiar with this for quite some time in
the science-fiction and fantasy fandoms through people I knew who were
Trekies or SCA types (among others). It is also relevant for many of
those in the mainstream who have a strong fascination for the past and
view it as a happier, simpler time. It is simply the profound feeling
of unhappiness in living now, and the belief that one should have been
born in another era (future or past).
Species dysphoria, temporal dysphoria, and gender dysphoria are
genuine phenomena and not fantasy. They are facts of life. Also a
fact of life is that of the three, only for gender dysphoria does the
technology exist to truly help effect a lasting and permanent change
to remedy the problem in a way the individual longs for. Time travel
and species reassignment are not yet available. The question is, what
to do in the interim? Each of us must answer this on our own. My
only advocacy is in this matter is merely for each of you to find
happiness in your unique way.
I have found working as a docent at my local zoo very satisfying. I
share my special affinity with animals with children, and they in turn
remind me through their enthusiasm in the classroom that mankind’s
alienation from the natural world is a learned thing, a true mental
illness, and one that can be cured. My older sister is temporal
dysphoric. She has turned her passionate "obsession" for medieval
Europe in to a career teaching French and Spanish, and travels to
Europe for at a substantial discount each summer as a chaperone and
tour guide for her high school students. And speaking of dysphorias
involving culture, I know a white musician who not only makes a living
playing traditional African instruments, he wears traditional African
clothing most of the time. Do people consider him a freak? Maybe
some do-- and shame on them! What’s important is he’s found
happiness. And he’s won praise not only for his work as a musician,
but also for his music and craft workshops for at-risk inner city
children. The children, btw, readily accept him, seeing though his
skin color to who he really is inside.
Our concepts of time, ethnicity, gender and species are ideological
constructs taught to us by our culture. They are words, words are
tools, tools are meant to serve people. People are not meant to serve
words! Words are tools for people to explore, create and express
themselves.
Dysphoria is not a mental illness, it is a profound existential
unhappiness: not the lack of happiness, but the true opposite of
euphoria. The real cause of the most painful part of this unhappiness
is the intolerance of society, not the uniqueness of the individual.
Sadly, words are used as weapons instead of tools sometimes. These are
the larger issues that must be addressed first, and would in turn lay
the ground work for recognition and acceptance of phenomena like
species dysphoria.
Or so it seems to me. As always, I speak only for myself. Take care!
Kimba W. Lion
>I have found working as a docent at my local zoo very satisfying. I
>share my special affinity with animals with children, and they in turn
>remind me through their enthusiasm in the classroom that mankind’s
>alienation from the natural world is a learned thing, a true mental
>illness, and one that can be cured.
That, ultimately, is what "being furry" means to me. If I can manage to
facilitate some measure of healing, well, I'll be extremely happy. :)
Kimba
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> In article <1do8j9e.ub4...@hunt-annex-port33.vianet.on.ca>,
> griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr... & Tirran) writes:
>
> ... dysphoria/discontent does not necessarily lead to depression,
> according to my own observations (I know quite a lot weird folks)
> and the snippets I've read on the subject...
The secret seems to be to turn it into something else, activity
for preference, or another emotion perhaps.
> > ... It's curious that being TG
> > only became recognised for what it really is when it became possible to
> > fix the root cause of the condition, instead of trying to chgange the
> > person's _attitude_ about it.
>
> The problem just didn't exist before -- for society.
Didn't it? Or did we just not hear of it enough? I can't believe
it's strictly a twentieth-centry phenomenon.*
> >> ... plus I'm not sure
> >> if this is the right time to go into public.
> >
> > ?? How so?
>
> I don't have enough hard facts yet. Without facts it would either have
> no or (at worst) the wrong effect.
Hmm... I get your point. Not that it's a bad time per se, but
that we don't know enough to be clear about it.
I very much agree: thus, that initial post.
Tir'
*I did once hear it seriously suggested that TG, as well as a host of
other 'abberations,' _were_ a product of Modern Western Society.
However, as it came from someone who has a history of looking for
scapegoats for her own self-inflicted troubles, I didn't put much stock
in the claim...
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> In article <1dofve1.1o0...@hunt-annex-port29.vianet.on.ca>,
> griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr... & Tirran) writes:
>
> > Not everyone. Denial is a coping mechanism, but IMO a very
> > unhealthy one. You can only lie to yourself so much before it catches up
> > to you.
>
> Denial is perhaps too strong, repression is a better word (though I
> think that repression is some sort of denial).
Repression tends to turn into denial after a time, and both tend
to go straight out the other side. Instances of repressed homophilia
turning into violent homophobia are depressingly commonplace.
> ... This isn't always a conscious process and intended to protect you from
> problems you cannot solve at the moment.
I suppose. It's certainly never worked for me, tho.
> >> I'd especially be interested in some statistics and professional
> >> observations on this topic.
> >
> > As would I. Tho I doubt that there are many numbers in existance
> > outside furrydom.
>
> All I've seen are just footnotes in works about entirely different
> issues...
Even _that_ would be something. Even marginal notes are of some
value when there's nothing else to work with. And it does mean that
others outside the furry community are at least _aware_ of it.
Tir'
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> I would like to introduce for your consideration a similar concept:
> "temporal dysphoria". I was familiar with this for quite some time in
> the science-fiction and fantasy fandoms through people I knew who were
> Trekies or SCA types (among others). It is also relevant for many of
> those in the mainstream who have a strong fascination for the past and
> view it as a happier, simpler time.
<nod> It just might be _more_ common in the mainstream; it's
usually given as the cause of the waves of pseudo-nostalgia that sweep
America, and the gods know it seems to be the driving philosophy behind
a number of political parties. (We have one Up Here who call themselves
the 'Family Values' Party. They seem intent on returning Canada to the
social and ethical values of the 1350s. _All_ of them.)
> Our concepts of time, ethnicity, gender and species are ideological
> constructs taught to us by our culture.
To some extent, yes. That's the software, and that's the part
that's relatively easy to fix.
But there are some hardware issues too, and my own opinion is
that these are the ones that have to be dealt with for the problem to be
truly solved. (An aside; I wonder how many people would be interested in
changing their race if they could?)
Something that fascinates me is a concept embedded in the native
American and Aboriginal cultures: that, at one time in the distant (but
historical) past, humans and other animals were /exactly the same/,
apart from certain species-specific behaviours. There was no distinction
drawn; everyone was people, whether man or coyote or beaver or fish.
Was this a common theme in older cultures?
When did this idea change?
It does bear on your comment about 'ideological constructs,'
doesn't it?
> ... The real cause of the most painful part of this unhappiness is the
> intolerance of society, not the uniqueness of the individual... These
> are the larger issues that must be addressed first, and would in turn lay
> the ground work for recognition and acceptance of phenomena like species
> dysphoria.
Which, I suppose, brings us 'round again to the Big Question,
the one that there is no answer for:
WHY ARE WE FURRYS?
Tir'
Locandez
griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr... & Tirran) wrote:
>
> Which, I suppose, brings us 'round again to the Big Question,
>the one that there is no answer for:
> WHY ARE WE FURRYS?
Because we want to, because we want to!
Locandez
_too evil_
--
My REAL email address is: lyndale (at) argonet (dot) co (dot) uk
760+ furry links:
http://surf.to/yiffle/
www.argonet.co.uk/users/lyndale/lotcaf/yiffle/
Furry lifestyle information:
http://welcome.to/lotcaf/
www.argonet.co.uk/users/lyndale/lotcaf/
Robert D. Parish
>> I would like to introduce for your consideration a similar concept:
>> "temporal dysphoria". I was familiar with this for quite some time in
>> the science-fiction and fantasy fandoms through people I knew who were
>> Trekies or SCA types (among others). It is also relevant for many of
>> those in the mainstream who have a strong fascination for the past and
>> view it as a happier, simpler time.
griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr... & Tirran) replied:
> <nod> It just might be _more_ common in the mainstream; it's
>usually given as the cause of the waves of pseudo-nostalgia that sweep
>America, and the gods know it seems to be the driving philosophy behind
>a number of political parties. (We have one Up Here who call themselves
>the 'Family Values' Party. They seem intent on returning Canada to the
>social and ethical values of the 1350s. _All_ of them.)
Hmmm... and I thought the push to return the United States to the
1950's was bad enough. The whole thing reminds me of a saying among
the enlisted ranks when I was in the Navy: "The Navy: 200 Years
Unhampered by Progress"! I always thought some of the reactionary
groups should adopt a similar motto. "50 Years Unhampered by
Progress". I should add that while I oppose the attempts of some of
these people to "turn back the clock" for the rest of us, I admire it
when others simplify their own lives and live according to what they
believe was better in the past, and focus on their families and their
faith. I am certainly not a reactionary, but I share some of the
Right's critique of the excesses and decadence of contemporary
America. Of course, I see much of this excess and decadence coming
FROM the Right...
BTW... regarding temporal dysphoria... Country Music is full of it. I
heard a Country Music song Thursday where the singer was lamenting
being born in this era, and was wishing he could have grown up to be a
cowboy back when the west was still wild. (Some of my coworkers
listen to Country Music all day long on the radio in maintenance shop,
and some day's I'm in their for hours when I'm working on something
that's either big or messy. Since I'm an amatuer anthropologist, it's
always fascinating to watch others and their rituals! I pay attention
to which songs they ignore-- and which songs they quietly sing along
with. These songs are usually hymns of tribute to the ideals of the
Country lifestyle, and are often about "the good old days".)
-- Robert D. Parish
Home Page http://catsden.net/~rdp/
"Totem Animals & Therianthropy" http://catsden.net/~rdp/totem.html
Running with my pack
The snow does not slow we wolves!
Such dreams set me free.
(RDP, '98)
Robert D. Parish
>> Our concepts of time, ethnicity, gender and species are ideological
>> constructs taught to us by our culture.
griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr... & Tirran) replied:
> To some extent, yes. That's the software, and that's the part
>that's relatively easy to fix.
> But there are some hardware issues too, and my own opinion is
>that these are the ones that have to be dealt with for the problem to be
>truly solved. (An aside; I wonder how many people would be interested in
>changing their race if they could?)
Regarding change of race... for just one example, look at how "White"
Michael Jackson has gotten over the years through cosmetic surgery!
Regarding other hardware issues, there has been some progress there
thanks to such movements as the Modern Primitives, which has pushed
the envelope in body modifications, turning their bodies in to works
of art. When I first read about them in RE:search over a decade ago,
such things as full body tattoos, scarifications, and multiple
piercings where considered bizarre and disturbing. Now they are no
longer uncommon, and elicit either a shake of the head or a smile when
seen. When you can walk in to a store in a mall and see a selection
of nose, nipple and "Prince Albert" penis rings (not to mention studs
for tongues, etc.) you know this has been assimilated in to the
mainstream.
Last I heard, the Modern Primitives were moving in to such things as
muzzles and antlers. The article I read two years ago said that a
doctor in Texas has implanted living coral in to a man's head, and it
was imbedded in to his skull. They had the coral wrapped in wet
towels and were growing it to look like antlers.
So there is some progress in this area. Regarding fur... our bodies
have small hairs all over them, and these hairs are constantly
growing, dying and being replaced. Once the technology is developed
to reverse male pattern baldness, the next step (IMHO) would be to use
it on men who want to grow chest hair, but cannot. From there to a
full coat of "fur" would not be a big step.
That would not be the same as real "fur" though, but it could look the
same. All mammals have hair. But not all have fur. Fur is made up
of two types of hair, a coarser outer coat for protection, and a
finer, softer, inner coat for warmth. You are right, the ultimate
solution would require genetic engineering most likely. Unless there
is a inactive gene that could be coaxed by less radical means to turn
on, and give us a coat of fur. I doubt it though... although there is
a gene that can cause humans to be born covered with dense hair all
over their bodies if it is not inactive during embryo development.
-- Robert Parish
Home Page http://catsden.net/~rdp/
"Totem Animals & Therianthropy" http://catsden.net/~rdp/totem.html
We werewolves have tails
Look with your heart, not your eyes
and you can see mine (RDP, '98)
Robert D. Parish
> Something that fascinates me is a concept embedded in the native
>American and Aboriginal cultures: that, at one time in the distant (but
>historical) past, humans and other animals were /exactly the same/,
>apart from certain species-specific behaviours. There was no distinction
>drawn; everyone was people, whether man or coyote or beaver or fish.
> Was this a common theme in older cultures?
> When did this idea change?
> It does bear on your comment about 'ideological constructs,'
>doesn't it?
Yes it does, and my own readings in Mythology and Folklore have been
an influence in my thinking here. I recently read "Giving Birth to
Thunder, Sleeping with his Daughter: Coyote Builds North America", by
Barry Lopez. (A great book!) The animals are people in this book,
and once I let go of my subconscious attempts to restructure the
stories in Western terms, this made perfect sense. I had to break out
of my anthropomorphic trap, and stop viewing animal people as
humanoids.
For me to read, I have to visualize. I found I was trying to figure
out in each story whether the protagonists were anthropomorphic
animals walking on two legs or four, or whether they were zoomorphic
humans endowed with animal magic. Then it dawned it me what I was
doing, and that they were animals, and that’s that. Sometimes they
were doing things that seemed human, other times they were doing
things unique to their species. But they were who they were.
What was changing wasn't the animals, but my perception of them.
These animals were doing what they do, in a time when humans had not
alienated themselves from the other animals, WHEN ANIMALS WERE TRIBES
AND PEOPLE (!) and therefore there was no sense of discontinuity
between human and animal behavior in the gestalt of the story teller.
Such concepts as anthropomorphic or zoomorphic were not relevant here.
These concepts may explain things inside of the Weltanschuung of
Twentieth-Century Western thought that coined these terms, but they do
not define the totality of things, or limit the percepttion of things
to those of a differing world-view.
The fact that something or someone is one thing does not preclude it
to be another thing. I can be an electrician and a teacher at a zoo;
a homosexual and a former military NCO with honorable service: and
many other things all at once. Even if these things may seem
contradictory to some people, they all are a part of who I am.
Likewise I can be a human and an animal too: a man, a wolf, a coyote,
a fox, a cougar, a raccoon, a stag, a dragon, and a red-tailed hawk.
Perhaps not all at once, but at various times. Noe of these things I
am define me in my totality, but they all are part of who I am. For
example, sometimes when I work on equipment I can better take things
apart or put them together when I rely solely on touch; I draw on this
talent from my raccoon aspect. This would not make sense to many
people in the world today, but it would to those steeped in the
Animism of aboriginal cultures.
Many of us have had special relationships in our lives with a person
we love or admire. For some of us, a corner of us seem to become that
person. This internalization could be something as simple as our own
mother inside our head shaking her head disapprovingly at some of our
antics. Or an admired figure in science or the humanities who lives
in the mind of a student aspiring to a calling, and admonishes him or
her to not give up when things are difficult. To me, animals are like
that. Some animals in my life blur in to me in a way were I don’t
know where they start and I end. Walking alone in the woods, I am
Fox, moving quietly. In the office with the plant manager, I am Wolf
and he is Bison – he may be bigger than I am, but I look him in his
eyes and stare him down. And so forth. This is not a role playing
game to me in any sense at all!
In these legends you mention, Ron, the other animals are our older
brethren. We humans are the youngest of all of the animal tribes --
where ever we go in this world, other animal tribes are already there.
They don't try to stop us, they let us be, and they ask the same of
us. But they are willing to teach us if we will listen and respect
them and their ways. These legends, they are the teaching of our
elders, the other animals.
-- Robert D. Parish
Home Page http://catsden.net/~rdp/
"Totem Animals & Therianthropy" http://catsden.net/~rdp/totem.html
Wolf is my teacher:
a benevolent alpha
and patient mentor
Others teach me too:
laughing, dancing coyote;
quiet, agile fox
Never alone when
I'm in my own company.
I just look inside!
Spirits of the wild--
we travel down life's road with
silent companions
Still, quiet voices
speak ancient truths of life, death,
birth and renewal
Follow your own path
identity is not made
it is discovered! (RDP, '98)
Robert D. Parish
>> ... The real cause of the most painful part of this unhappiness is the
>> intolerance of society, not the uniqueness of the individual... These
>> are the larger issues that must be addressed first, and would in turn lay
>> the ground work for recognition and acceptance of phenomena like species
>> dysphoria.
griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr... & Tirran) replied:
> Which, I suppose, brings us 'round again to the Big Question,
>the one that there is no answer for:
> WHY ARE WE FURRYS?
The bigger question than that that no one can definitively answer is
"what is a furry"? I don’t want to rehash some of the painful debates
about this. I did want to note that different people have different
definitions of what a furry is, and that they therefore have different
reasons to identify themselves as a furry. The same is true with the
werewolves of Alt.Horror.Werewolf.
I no longer identify myself as being a furry or a werewolf (in the
AHWW sense). Not because I want to prove anything to anybody, but
because I found the labels uncomfortable to wear. I am simply me. I
am here because there are some interesting things to talk about here.
And because I have some very dear friends here that are furries, and
they share many of my interest and concerns. It’s that simple,
although I admit it’s taken me three years to come to that conclusion,
As always, your mileage may very. Take care… and hope you have a good
weekend!
-- Robert D. Parish
Home Page http://catsden.net/~rdp/
"Totem Animals & Therianthropy" http://catsden.net/~rdp/totem.html
Rain in the forest
Two deer walk out of the mist
Sunlight fills my soul (RDP, '98)
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> griz...@vianet.on.ca (Ron Orr... & Tirran) replied:
> > ... the gods know it seems to be the driving philosophy behind
> >a number of political parties. (We have one Up Here who call themselves
> >the 'Family Values' Party. They seem intent on returning Canada to the
> >social and ethical values of the 1350s. _All_ of them.)
>
> Hmmm... and I thought the push to return the United States to the
> 1950's was bad enough.
Luckily, most voters have enough smarts to know the consequences
of those policies. Tho it was a little disconcerting to see how may
votes they _did_ get.
> ... I should add that while I oppose the attempts of some of
> these people to "turn back the clock" for the rest of us, I admire it
> when others simplify their own lives and live according to what they
> believe was better in the past, and focus on their families and their
> faith.
<nod> As a personal choice, it's fine. (I've always admired the
Amish for their refusal to compromise their values, even if I think
they're probably wrong.) But when that vision is imposed from without...
> BTW... regarding temporal dysphoria... Country Music is full of it.
<snip>
I suspect this explains its growing popularity. Tho personally,
I get an enormous amount of pleasure out of these wealthy performers
wingeing on about how good things were in the Good Old Days, when most
of them wouldn't have been living the sort life they are now. ;)
> ... Since I'm an amatuer anthropologist, it's
> always fascinating to watch others and their rituals! I pay attention
> to which songs they ignore-- and which songs they quietly sing along
> with. These songs are usually hymns of tribute to the ideals of the
> Country lifestyle, and are often about "the good old days".)
Hmm... what's their reaction to the current crop of
'countrified' rock classics? One of the weirder experiences I've had
lately was hearing 'The Weight' performed by some country singer...
Tir'
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> Regarding change of race... for just one example, look at how "White"
> Michael Jackson has gotten over the years through cosmetic surgery!
I'd forgotten about that... tho I wonder if 'white' is actually
the way he's going, or if it's just cosmetic?
> Regarding other hardware issues, there has been some progress there
> thanks to such movements as the Modern Primitives, which has pushed
> the envelope in body modifications, turning their bodies in to works
> of art... Now they are no
> longer uncommon, and elicit either a shake of the head or a smile when
> seen.
They are pretty much thge front edge of what I'm talking about,
I think. In your reading, did they ever discuss _why_ they've made these
changes to themselves?
> ... Regarding fur... our bodies
> have small hairs all over them... Once the technology is developed
> to reverse male pattern baldness, the next step (IMHO) would be to use
> it on men who want to grow chest hair, but cannot. From there to a
> full coat of "fur" would not be a big step.
I suspect a rather small one.
Tho I wonder: is body hair something people (ordinary folks, not
furrys) actually want? I've noticed from my time at the gym that the
male ideal these days seems to be a full head of hair, but none on the
body. I would think that this trend might make body-hair regrowth a
rather low priority.
> ... You are right, the ultimate
> solution would require genetic engineering most likely.
Or, taking the Modern Primitives as an example, a little
biomechanical technology. I know we're closer to being able to implant
all kinds of nifty working devices into our bodies than most people
realise; a working tail is mostly mechanical engineering, a bit of
electronics, and some relatively routine pelvic surgery.
Fur, tho, is the toughy.
Tir'
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> ... I recently read "Giving Birth to
> Thunder, Sleeping with his Daughter: Coyote Builds North America", by
> Barry Lopez. (A great book!) The animals are people in this book,
> and once I let go of my subconscious attempts to restructure the
> stories in Western terms, this made perfect sense. I had to break out
> of my anthropomorphic trap, and stop viewing animal people as
> humanoids.
Sometimes that's an artifact of the storytelling itself. I've
read some good stories from the American Southwest, and many of the
parallel stories from Labrador*, and I always pictured the protagonists
as humans. Part of that is because the stories (the Labrador ones in
particular) seemed to feature a lot of actual shape-shifting - an
ability that seemed to be completely natural for _all_ creatures in the
stories.
> In these legends you mention, Ron, the other animals are our older
> brethren. We humans are the youngest of all of the animal tribes --
> where ever we go in this world, other animal tribes are already there.
That's how I read them too. In most of the creation myths I've
come across so far, humans were the last-created of the people...
sometimes so late that they don't come into many stories at all.
Drat... now I wish I had the time and freedom to track down
similar legends in Europe and Asia...
Tir'
* In one op these stories, the hero has to dispatch a monstrous
creature whose name can be translated into something like 'long-nose.'
Some anthropologists believe that this critter is none other than the
wooly mammoth, which implies that this story may be ten thousand years
old and more, making it the oldest story on Earth...
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> The bigger question than that that no one can definitively answer is
> "what is a furry"?
Hmm... p'raps I should rephrase the original question. How
about, "Why are we the way we are?" gets around the whole silly
definition business...
Tir'
Charlie Luce
Tirran writes...
ALF is being very musically inspiring to me lately...
"Tell me all your thoughts on God
'Cause I would really like to meet her.
And ask her why we're who we are." -- Counting Blue Cars, by Dishwalla
From the album _Pet Your Friends_
Charlie "time to get the CD out" Luce
Ron Orr... & Tirran
> In article <1dp1fj6.zp...@hunt-annex-port24.vianet.on.ca>, Ron
> Orr... & Tirran writes...
> > Hmm... p'raps I should rephrase the original question. How
> >about, "Why are we the way we are?" gets around the whole silly
> >definition business...
>
> ALF is being very musically inspiring to me lately...
>
> "Tell me all your thoughts on God
> 'Cause I would really like to meet her.
> And ask her why we're who we are." -- Counting Blue Cars, by Dishwalla
> From the album _Pet Your Friends_
Or...
"Well I can't be sure where I'm headed after death
To Heaven, Hell, or on to some great vast
But if I can, I would like to meet my Maker
There's one or two things I'd sure like to ask."
'At My Funeral' - Crash Test Dummies
from 'The Ghosts That Haunt Me'
Tir'
MoonSong01
>Many of us have had special relationships in our lives with a person
>we love or admire. For some of us, a corner of us seem to become that
>person.
(snip)
>To me, animals are like that. Some animals in my life blur in to me in a way
were
>I don’t know where they start and I end.
(more snip)
That ... is ... brilliant.
Hey, all you furs who're looking for ways to explain this stuff to non-furs:
that was a good one, give it a shot. I plan to.
Robert D. Parish
>>Many of us have had special relationships in our lives with a person
>>we love or admire. For some of us, a corner of us seem to become that
moons...@aol.comwolf (MoonSong01) replied:
>That ... is ... brilliant.
Thank you. It's taken me three years to figure that out, and I'm
still not done! This is not for everyone, but it works for me.
>Hey, all you furs who're looking for ways to explain this stuff to non-furs:
>that was a good one, give it a shot. I plan to.
This theory is also helpful to me to figure other people out. Once
you start to get a feel for someone's animal totem, you have a new way
to understand them, and to anticipate there thoughts and actions. The
manager I mentioned who is Bison, for example-- besides his
personality, his office is decorated in wild west art, including a
painting of Buffalo Bill, a statuette of Sitting Bull and another of a
Bison. It seems obvious when I tell it like that, but keep in mind
that to realize this I had to step out of the mental context of the
employee/manager relationship, and had to become open to the idea that
potentilaly anyone could have an animal totem -- even if they were not
aware of it as such, and see through the smoke screen most people
project in thier lives to hide their inner self.
Once I figured that out what his totem is, talking with him became a
lot less stressful. His anger and language stopped being threats, and
I saw them as his tactics to control others. He reminded me of how
buffalo behaved when being tested by a wolf at Wolf Park-- the bluff
charges and stamping the ground with both front feet. (Observing
animals has been a great way for me to learn about people, too...
visit Wolf Park on the web at http://www.wolfpark.org, and in person
near Laffayette, Indiana) Last time I was called to his office to
explain a problem in the plant to him, I not only was able to diffuse
his anger, I tried my bison theory on him, by telling him about a
place east of Louisville that has a heard of Bison. His eyes lit up
and we ended up talking for an hour about animals! And he told me of
places he'd been too, when he was younger. He's on medical leave
now... so I have to figure a new boss out when I finally meet him.
Damn... just when I finally figured the last one out!
As always, your mileage may very... don't get yourself fired trying to
explain "furry" to your boss! <LOL!> There's other anecdotes I could
share about the rewards of guessing someone's totem, but this is
getting long enough. I think my point's made.
I don't mention my animal totems to anyone at work. If they want to
know about my animal totems, there are plently of clues. In fact,
there's one jerk who has figured it out, and tries to harrass me about
whether or ot I have any wolves yet. Big deal... I live, and try to
kid him right back about what a good idea that would be. For example,
having a wolf around would sure be handy when the Jehovah's witnesses
show up at my door!
I wear a pewter wolf head necklace at all times, and when things are
going bad, I find a quiet place, hold the necklace tightly to my chest
with my right hand, and mediate on all Wolf represents to me--
strength, dignity, loyalty to friends and family, self-determination,
and the untamed wilderness. It has been a big help to me. On my car
I have a rainbow paw print and Wolf Park stickers on my windows, as
well as totem animal necklaces of wolf, fox, otter, raccoon, dragon,
and stag hanging from the rear view mirrors, like so many furry St.
Christopher medalions... which in a way they are, as I travel down
life's road.
Take care!
-- Robert Parish
PLEASE NOTE NEW URL: Home Page http://catsden.net/~rdp/
"Totem Animals & Therianthropy" http://catsden.net/~rdp/totem.html
"What is a shaman?
He dreams like all men do
But he remembers"
Tim Gadd
> For example,
>having a wolf around would sure be handy when the Jehovah's witnesses
>show up at my door!
A six-eyed goat would be better - like that one in 'Altered States'.
--
Tim Gadd
Hobart, Tasmania
Lupercal .com
@wolf-web
Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/1161/
'Some people never go crazy.
What truly horrible lives they must live."
Charles Bukowski
MegaDog the Nettweiler
<not_a...@address.com> scrobe:
>four...@aye.net (Robert D. Parish) wrote:
>> For example,
>>having a wolf around would sure be handy when the Jehovah's witnesses
>>show up at my door!
>
>A six-eyed goat would be better - like that one in 'Altered States'.
I can't but help thinking that Cthulhu would be even better...
He[1] would no doubt lend a helping tentacle or two to deal with
door-to-door salesmen, beggars and the like.
[1]Thought-for-the-day: just how do you sex something with a pulpy,
gelatinous head, numerous livid green tentacles, and small,
leathery wings?
--
!Raised Tails! -:MegaDog:-
http://www.canismajor.demon.co.uk/index.html
"Surprise God - pray without warning"
Tom Howling
> [1]Thought-for-the-day: just how do you sex something with a pulpy,
> gelatinous head, numerous livid green tentacles, and small,
> leathery wings?
Very carefully.
--Tom Howling
Swamp Gator
<four...@aye.net> writes
>I don't mention my animal totems to anyone at work. If they want to
>know about my animal totems, there are plently of clues. In fact,
>there's one jerk who has figured it out, and tries to harrass me about
>whether or ot I have any wolves yet. Big deal... I live, and try to
>kid him right back about what a good idea that would be. For example,
>having a wolf around would sure be handy when the Jehovah's witnesses
>show up at my door!
Although I feel that everyone at my place of work probably knows that I
have a love of crocodilians (due to all the croc and gator pictures on
and around my desk and other obvious outward signs), I have gone a bit
further and told one or two folks a little more about my inner furry
feelings. I do realise that this *can* be a potentially risky thing to
do but previous negative experiences (not in the workplace) have taught
me to think carefully before opening my heart to others. Also, I think
of the folk who I have spoken to much more as friends than as work
colleagues and as such felt that even if what I told them was not
received well, it would at least go no further.
I am glad to say though that what I have told my friends has been
received very well and has led to one of these guys expressing furry
feelings of his own back to me. Infact I was very deeply moved when on
my recent hatchday, this guy presented me with an excellent oil painting
of an alligator that he had spent quite a long time painting for me.
However, not all my experiences of talking to others about my furriness
have been so positive and much to my regret, I once lost a friendship by
doing so. I must bear in mind though that other friendships have been
strengthened through being open about my feelings and, for me, openess
and trust is what friendship is all about.
>I wear a pewter wolf head necklace at all times, and when things are
>going bad, I find a quiet place, hold the necklace tightly to my chest
>with my right hand, and mediate on all Wolf represents to me--
>strength, dignity, loyalty to friends and family, self-determination,
>and the untamed wilderness. It has been a big help to me. On my car
>I have a rainbow paw print and Wolf Park stickers on my windows, as
>well as totem animal necklaces of wolf, fox, otter, raccoon, dragon,
>and stag hanging from the rear view mirrors, like so many furry St.
>Christopher medalions... which in a way they are, as I travel down
>life's road.
I was delighted to read the above paragraph as I too constantly wear a
necklace on which is a small gold alligator. I have found that I have
developed an almost reflexive action of touching the gator through my
shirt and pressing it into my chest, perhaps a physical manifestation of
my desire to become this creature. This necklace is for me, an outward
symbol of my inner gator spirituality and as such is of very great value
to me.
Swampy
--
Swamp Gator - omeg...@spamoff.hotmail.com (remove spamoff. to reply)
Fur Code V1.3 FDA5s A+ C++>+++ D H+++ M- P+++ R++ T+++ W- Z- Sm S++
RLS a cn+ d- e++ f++ h* i+ j- p sm+
Robert D. Parish
>I thought about wearing something that could symbolize my wolfish
>nature but I'm scared that I would interpret too much into the
>symbol. Perhaps it's just because I haven't found the right symbol yet,
>perhaps it is really too complex to put into one symbol. There are
>many items that symbolize different aspects of me, but none that
>could express all of it. Or maybe it would be too abstract for a
>wolf's mind... ;-)
There's a temptation to run out and buy lots of things with your
favorite animal on it. I would recomend you not worry about not
having something you feel comfortable wearing yet. I suspect when you
find the right thing, you'll know. One right thing will be more
valuable to you than a bunch of merely wolf things, if my experience
is anything to go by. Two good places to find wolf related things are
at places that sell American Indian style stuff (some stores, and most
pow-wows), and at dog shows that also have people there selling dog
related items. In fact, at a recent dog show I bought a magnificent
hand painted brooch of a fox running!
Regarding wearing animal stuff at work... one day this week one of the
mechanics I work with (I'm an electrician) was wearing a wolf t-shirt.
(Normally we wear uniforms.) The wolf on the shirt had gray and white
fur that looked a lot like this guy's grey hair, and it seems an
appropriate match in personality.
Hmmm... I think I found another co-workers animal totem!
Take care.