Persecution

Dennis

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Oct 24, 2002, 4:32:19 PM10/24/02

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A Christian editor ?

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message
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> I read in a Dutch newspaper that persecution of Christians is on the
> increase, and that no other religion is persecuted than the Christian.
>
> Why would that be?
>
> Rien.
> ------------
>
>

Rien

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Oct 24, 2002, 3:25:16 PM10/24/02

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Karyn

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Oct 24, 2002, 5:45:26 PM10/24/02

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It threatens the status quo.

--
Karyn

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message
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Karyn

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Oct 24, 2002, 5:47:53 PM10/24/02

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Actually, it's pretty verifiable information.

--
Karyn
"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
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Dennis

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Oct 24, 2002, 6:05:44 PM10/24/02

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Lets hear the data.

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message
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Rien

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Oct 24, 2002, 6:52:06 PM10/24/02

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Does it really?
In the very early days yes it did. But now???
You are kidding yes?

Rien.
------------

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 24, 2002, 9:47:08 PM10/24/02

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http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_overv.htm

--
Karyn
"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 24, 2002, 9:51:48 PM10/24/02

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No. I am not kidding. Not all Christians have sold out.

--
Karyn
"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 24, 2002, 10:26:38 PM10/24/02

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It depends what you mean by Christianity.

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message
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> In this country, isn't Christianity the status quo? Ape:)

>
> "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:apa82l$svlq5$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Rien

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Oct 24, 2002, 10:24:12 PM10/24/02

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Christians making vitriolic statements are a threat to the status quo?

Rien ROFLHAO.
--------------

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 24, 2002, 10:22:40 PM10/24/02

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Okay. I looked. What was I supposed to see? Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 24, 2002, 10:24:09 PM10/24/02

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In this country, isn't Christianity the status quo? Ape:)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message
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Karyn

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Oct 24, 2002, 10:25:40 PM10/24/02

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Information about different forms of religious persecution, places you could
go to learn more about it.

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 24, 2002, 10:30:45 PM10/24/02

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What vitriolic statements are you talking about?

--
Karyn
"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 24, 2002, 11:34:47 PM10/24/02

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Yes, it was about religious persecution, but nothing I read supported the
contention that Christians were the most heavily persecuted. All religions
persecute each other evenly. .. Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 24, 2002, 11:31:38 PM10/24/02

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Could you be a little less cryptic? Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Rien

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Oct 25, 2002, 12:09:01 AM10/25/02

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Yah... although I would say that of the entire Western world... and from
that pov those who no longer need, can, or want to belong to *that* status
quo have 'sold out' ....solipsism in optima forma.

It could well be though, that by closer scrutiny some of these traitors
constitute authentic Christianity.

Recall how reluctant Noah was to open the ark-church? At least he, at long
last, got the message that dove brought to him in the form of an olive
branch of peace...
"It's all ok here. You can leave that smelly box now". The 'status quo'
church, however, still refuses to lift the lid. She prefers to remain in her
redundant coffin.

Damn traitors...

Rien.
-------------

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message
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naked ape

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Oct 25, 2002, 12:39:56 AM10/25/02

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Rien,
I've met a lot of Christians, but few were Christ like. When they are,
though, they really seem happy. ..
Ape;)
--
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so
unlike your Christ"
Mahatma Gandhi

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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Dennis

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Oct 25, 2002, 12:48:56 AM10/25/02

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That when religions interfere with governments people kill each other.

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 25, 2002, 1:11:12 AM10/25/02

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Oh, that.))

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

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Dennis

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Oct 25, 2002, 1:04:35 AM10/25/02

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After you read Illusions Christ will be different and the ones you thought
were Christ like will still be, but others will be also......

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Chovhani

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Oct 25, 2002, 8:59:39 AM10/25/02

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Well they see them as a threat. Religion can become the government, after
all. God is a hard act for any politician to follow, and many religious
leaders have a charisma and following that politicians would give their
right arms for. The problem is when religion seems to be stepping on
political territory, for example the Christians making waves in the Hindu
caste system. Leaving aside all rights and wrongs for the time being, it has
to be acknowledged that "outside" interference is always going to be
resisted, and its advocates persecuted. We (humans) resist change, it scares
us. Suffragettes died, union leaders died, civil rights spokesmen died. It's
a human survival instinct. "They" who bring change are a threat.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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> How about when governments interfere with religions?

> --
> Karyn
> "Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

> news:apaicp$s8a24$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

Dennis

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Oct 25, 2002, 9:15:14 AM10/25/02

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from http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_overv.htm

North American Religious Persecution:
In the U.S. and Canada, most religious oppression and persecution is in the
form of:

Government action in which there is a conflict between religious freedom
and other government interests. Some recent examples have been: Prosecution
of followers of a Native faith under anti-drug legislation because they
followed centuries-old rituals which use peyote.
Prosecution of Santerians by the city of Hialeah, FL, because of the
former's ritual sacrifices of chickens and other small animals.
Oppression of Jehovah's Witnesses in Quebec in the past.
Decisions in many child custody cases in which the rights of a parent are
abridged for religious reasons.

Religiously motivated attacks by individuals and small groups: One common
type of religious oppression appears to involve conservative Christians and
their coworkers. The latter often feel harassed by unwanted, repeated
attempts at religious conversion by Evangelicals. Meanwhile, the religious
conservatives are often ostracized by their co-workers because of their
conversion activities.

The numerically most common serious religious attacks appear to be
antisemitic actions by skinheads and a small minority of extreme right wing
political and religious groups. Usually, attacks take the form of
desecration of Jewish synagogues, cemeteries, etc.

The numerically most common attacks, on a per-capita basis, are believed to
be a very small minority of Christians attacking those Neo-Pagans who openly
practice their faith. The only recent religiously motivated lynching and
attempted mass murder in the United States have involved these two groups.

Much of the public believes that the numerically most common religiously
motivated homicides are probably by underground Satanic cults who kidnap
infants and children for abuse and ritual murder. This appears to be a hoax;
We have been unable to find any hard evidence that such abuse is actually
happening.
The numerically most common religiously motivated homicides appear to arise
accidentally during exorcisms, where physical abuse aimed at driving demons
from people's bodies inadvertently escalates into murder.

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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> How about when governments interfere with religions?

> --
> Karyn
> "Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

> news:apaicp$s8a24$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 8:29:49 AM10/25/02

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I can try. If by "Christianity" you mean institutions with Christian names
on them, politicians quoting the Bible to support their agendas, the idea
that this is a "Christian nation" and so forth then yes. That is the status
quo. If, on the other hand, you mean taking Jesus seriously, working for
social justice, seeing God in "the least of them," and rejecting all systems
of oppression. No. That's not the status quo.

--
Karyn

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 8:34:13 AM10/25/02

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Christians are the largest group experiencing such persecution. It's a
simple case of numbers. We don't experience it here in this country because
we are basically Christian dominated. However, in other parts of the world
that is not the case.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that religious persecution against
Christians is *worse* than persecution against any other group. It's all
pretty bad and it's all intolerable imo.

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 8:38:10 AM10/25/02

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How about when governments interfere with religions?

--
Karyn
"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 8:36:01 AM10/25/02

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I think you are totally right about the "traitors."

--
Karyn
"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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Dennis

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Oct 25, 2002, 10:30:14 AM10/25/02

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It's when "God to man" relationship gets **replaced** with "man to God".

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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Maris

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Oct 25, 2002, 11:09:08 AM10/25/02

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What goes around, comes around?

I know that seems harsh, but Christianity has a history of persecuting the
members of other faiths. Missionary work to change the religions of ancient
cultures. Removing Native American children from their parents and putting
them in church schools. The Native Americans, themselves. The Crusades.
The Salem Witch Trials, although those people weren't really "witches".
With a couple of hours of research, I could fill several pages.

Please don't view this as a flame attack.

I have nothing against Christianity, understand. This is just an answer to
a question that has been posted.

--
Love and Light,
Maris

Follow your bliss. (Joseph Campbell)

naked ape

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Oct 25, 2002, 1:35:26 PM10/25/02

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I didn't see numbers or percentages at the Religious Tolerance site. ..
Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 25, 2002, 1:37:18 PM10/25/02

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Which Christian denominations would you classify as traitors? Would you
start with the Catholics? Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 25, 2002, 1:33:08 PM10/25/02

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What I'm hearing is that only you, and those like you, are the real
Christians. ..
Ape:)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Chovhani

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Oct 25, 2002, 1:34:19 PM10/25/02

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Great site.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Dennis <denn...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
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Rien

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Oct 25, 2002, 3:19:01 PM10/25/02

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So true...
Rien.
-------------

"Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

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Rien

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Oct 25, 2002, 3:21:28 PM10/25/02

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Of course Maris. No attack read in your post.
But facts are facts, yes?
Rien.
---------
"Maris" <marissm...@msn.com> wrote in message
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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 4:02:44 PM10/25/02

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That's not what I said.

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 4:08:57 PM10/25/02

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It has nothing to do with denominations.

--
Karyn

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 4:39:26 PM10/25/02

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http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/prsecutn/plight.html

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 3:42:20 PM10/25/02

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Yes, they who bring change are a threat, but sometimes that change is
necessary.

--
Karyn
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
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Mitzi M.

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Oct 25, 2002, 9:04:11 PM10/25/02

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I don't think that Karyn's ever said that, but IMO her and people like her
(not denominational, but people who live their faith) are real Christians
(note i did not say THE real Christians) :)

MItzi

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 25, 2002, 9:12:23 PM10/25/02

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Thank you!

--
Karyn
"Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Rien

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Oct 25, 2002, 9:51:02 PM10/25/02

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Live their faith?

Rien.
------------

"Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Mitzi M.

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Oct 25, 2002, 11:52:30 PM10/25/02

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a living faith.. 'faith with works'..mmmm... walking their walk.. not
sure how else to explain it...

Some one who puts into action and makes an active part of their lives the
beliefs that they talk about.

Mitzi

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:02:14 AM10/26/02

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You didn't say you were a traitor to Christianity. .. Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Mitzi M.

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Oct 25, 2002, 11:53:25 PM10/25/02

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just stating reality as it manifests in my experience :)

Mitzi

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:09:18 AM10/26/02

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Yes, real Christians.))

"Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Rien

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:10:15 AM10/26/02

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Yes... and that is what every person living on this planet does. NO
exceptions.

Rien.
-----------------

"Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:11:00 AM10/26/02

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Sure, Rien, just like "they" do right here on Usenet.)) Ape;)

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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Mitzi M.

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Oct 26, 2002, 1:46:01 AM10/26/02

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as opposed to plastic ones ;)

Mitzi

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Mitzi M.

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Oct 26, 2002, 1:49:02 AM10/26/02

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yes..

Mitzi

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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> Then *that* is their way of being, walking their walk, their faith they
> live.
> See what I mean?
> Rien.
> -----------

> "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:apd6o7$hem4$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > Yeah, but a lot of people say one thing, then actually do another. ..

> Ape;)
> >
> > "Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

> > news:apd5ru$i6c9$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...
> > > Yah... see my response to Mitzi two doors up.
> > > Rien.
> > > ------

> > > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:apd4f9$i4n0$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...

Mitzi M.

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Oct 26, 2002, 1:50:44 AM10/26/02

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I agree..yet our words are awful powerful, too...when listening to what
people are saying, imo, you can find out what direction they'd really like
to be heading in and then help them find that way..

Mitzi

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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> I hear a lot of rhetoric, but it's acts that define us, not our words
about
> good intentions. .. Ape;)

>
> "Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:apd3i5$fbru$1...@ID-10142.news.dfncis.de...

naked ape

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:08:28 AM10/26/02

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Who wrote the story. It reads like an editorial. Also, why isn't any of the
"information" given attribution? And while I'm asking, why didn't you send
me to this web page first? I needlessly blew a lot of my time at the
religious tolerance site. .. Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Rien

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:32:05 AM10/26/02

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Yah... see my response to Mitzi two doors up.
Rien.
------

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Eve

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Oct 26, 2002, 2:25:44 AM10/26/02

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In which case, they're still living their (real) beliefs, which is
Mitzi's point ;)

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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> Yeah, but a lot of people say one thing, then actually do another. ..

Ape;)
>
> "Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

> news:apd5ru$i6c9$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...

Eve

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Oct 26, 2002, 2:32:02 AM10/26/02

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Whoops sorry Rien - I think I credited Mitzi with your point (if
anyone's keeping score, that is ;)

"Eve" <elindispamm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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naked ape

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:49:54 AM10/26/02

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Yeah, but a lot of people say one thing, then actually do another. .. Ape;)

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

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Rien

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:55:48 AM10/26/02

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Then *that* is their way of being, walking their walk, their faith they
live.
See what I mean?
Rien.
-----------

"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Rien

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Oct 26, 2002, 2:46:48 AM10/26/02

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Forgiven... but don't do it again :-)

Rien.
-----------

"Eve" <elindispamm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

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naked ape

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:00:19 AM10/26/02

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How about giving me a profile of your average Christian traitor? Ape;)

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Rien

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Oct 26, 2002, 2:00:20 AM10/26/02

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I knew you would :-)
Rien.

----------
"Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

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Derek

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Oct 26, 2002, 2:53:07 AM10/26/02

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The letters underneath the article are worth reading
Derek

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apca50$bj3q$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 9:30:52 AM10/26/02

to

You mean like the ones on the dashboard of my car? (about to break into
really bad song called "Plastic Jesus" somebody stop me)

--
Karyn

"Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:apda70$gt7b$1...@ID-10142.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 9:51:31 AM10/26/02

to

You do?? wow.

--
Karyn
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:Egwu9.15185$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> When I'm in chat rooms I use Karyn's views and words to defend
Christianity
> from hecklers.
>
> --
> Melanie
> www.chovhani.com

>
>
>
> Mitzi M. <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:apcpmh$frnq$1...@ID-10142.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:04:58 AM10/26/02

to

I am really honored that you think so.

--
Karyn
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:g9xu9.15274$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Yes, your version makes more sense.
>
> --
> Melanie
> www.chovhani.com

>
>
>
> Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:ape6k2$nl1j$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Derek

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:26:45 AM10/26/02

to

so if one religious group attacks all others...whats the best way to deal
with it?
DErek

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:_kxu9.15278$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> No-one's beliefs should ever be under attack.
>
> --
> Melanie
> www.chovhani.com
>
>
>
> Maris <marissm...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:ape7g6$qc21$1...@ID-29845.news.dfncis.de...
> > It's sad that what anyone believes should be a point of persecution. No
> > faith is really meant to do that, or allow that. I'm sorry that
> > Christianity is under attack.
> >
> > --
> > Love and Light,
> > Maris
> >
> > Follow your bliss. (Joseph Campbell)

> >
> >
> > "Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

> > news:apc5jj$an13$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...
> > Of course Maris. No attack read in your post.
> > But facts are facts, yes?
> > Rien.
> > ---------
> > "Maris" <marissm...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:apbmro$5mr1$1...@ID-29845.news.dfncis.de...
> > > What goes around, comes around?
> > >
> > > I know that seems harsh, but Christianity has a history of persecuting
> the
> > > members of other faiths. Missionary work to change the religions of
> > ancient
> > > cultures. Removing Native American children from their parents and
> > putting
> > > them in church schools. The Native Americans, themselves. The
> Crusades.
> > > The Salem Witch Trials, although those people weren't really
"witches".
> > > With a couple of hours of research, I could fill several pages.
> > >
> > > Please don't view this as a flame attack.
> > >
> > > I have nothing against Christianity, understand. This is just an
answer
> > to
> > > a question that has been posted.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Love and Light,
> > > Maris
> > >
> > > Follow your bliss. (Joseph Campbell)

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:27:05 AM10/26/02

to

I appreciate what you are saying here, Maris, but imho, the "Christianity"
responsible for the violation of native cultures and the burning times needs
to be attacked. I also believe that Christians need to be the first to
denounce not only these practices, but the sort of beliefs that led to them.
Somewhere along the line, a religion of love became a religion of violence
and domination. One simply can not love Jesus and justify that.

--
Karyn

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:36:55 AM10/26/02

to

Don't act like them by being constantly on the attack yourself?

--
Karyn
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:ape8ip$odvc$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:42:41 AM10/26/02

to

So what you're really saying is that the beliefs that deserve to be attacked
aren't really very Christian!

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:ape8mo$q518$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Derek

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:50:30 AM10/26/02

to

Sure ..but that doesn`t solve the problem..in fact it could make it worse1
Derek

"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:ape996$prsv$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 9:06:02 AM10/26/02

to

When I'm in chat rooms I use Karyn's views and words to defend Christianity
from hecklers.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Mitzi M. <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:apcpmh$frnq$1...@ID-10142.news.dfncis.de...
> I don't think that Karyn's ever said that, but IMO her and people like her
> (not denominational, but people who live their faith) are real Christians
> (note i did not say THE real Christians) :)
>
> MItzi
>
>
> "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:apbv3h$92to$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > What I'm hearing is that only you, and those like you, are the real
> > Christians. ..
> > Ape:)
> >

> > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:apbdeu$2s44$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > I can try. If by "Christianity" you mean institutions with Christian
> names
> > > on them, politicians quoting the Bible to support their agendas, the
> idea
> > > that this is a "Christian nation" and so forth then yes. That is the
> > status
> > > quo. If, on the other hand, you mean taking Jesus seriously, working
for
> > > social justice, seeing God in "the least of them," and rejecting all
> > systems
> > > of oppression. No. That's not the status quo.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn
> > > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > > news:apadpi$tbcep$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > Could you be a little less cryptic? Ape;)
> > > >

> > > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:apaa3v$smiv1$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > It depends what you mean by Christianity.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Karyn
> > > > > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:apa9r1$sk796$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > In this country, isn't Christianity the status quo? Ape:)
> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > news:apa82l$svlq5$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > No. I am not kidding. Not all Christians have sold out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > "Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:ap9tij$tc8b6$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > > Does it really?
> > > > > > > > In the very early days yes it did. But now???
> > > > > > > > You are kidding yes?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rien.
> > > > > > > > ------------

> > > > > > > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > news:ap9pkp$t6di3$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > > > It threatens the status quo.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Karyn

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:51:13 AM10/26/02

to

Again, it depends on how one defines "Christian." As a religion, it can
stink. As a relationship with the living, liberating Christ, it can be
awsome.

Case in point, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who is considered by many to be a
Christian martyr, refused to be called "Christian" because of the complicity
of the German Christians with the Third Reich combined with the fact that
precious few of the theologians of his time had a mumbling word to say about
Nazism. He totally gave up on the religion of Christianity in order to
become faithful to Christ. Hence, "religionless Christianity"

--
Karyn

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:gHxu9.15291$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:52:45 AM10/26/02

to

Are you being attacked by a religious group?

--
Karyn
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:ape9va$pus7$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:02:38 AM10/26/02

to

It may well do in the long-term though, which is what we want. I'd like it
to come quicker too, but I don't know how to achieve it.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Derek <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:apea1e$riuj$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...
> Sure but,..as I said to Karyn that won`t stop the attacks
> Derek

> "Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

> news:gExu9.15290$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > Stomp on their toes:)
> >
> > Hey, I wish I knew. The Pagans try to teach by example. Sometimes it
> works.
> >
> > --
> > Melanie
> > www.chovhani.com

> >
> >
> >
> > Derek <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:ape8ip$odvc$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:03:09 AM10/26/02

to

Bloody semantics.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apea40$q12b$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:04:57 AM10/26/02

to

not at the moment.

So then, what's the problem? What "attacks" are we talking about that are in
such dire need of "being dealt with?"

--
Karyn
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:apeadi$on99$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...
> no, are you?

> Derek
> "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:apea6s$r7h4$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 9:21:16 AM10/26/02

to

Let me give you an example - someone in the church finds out a clergy member
is sexually abusing someone. The "establishment" response is to protect the
church, even at the expense of the victim, by cover ups, denials etc. The
"traitor" who is, imo the real Christian, defends the victim and tells the
truth, even if it means the "establishment" suffers.

Does that clarify ?

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apd3r9$id72$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 9:27:28 AM10/26/02

to

Like I said, it depends on how you are defining Christianity. If
"Christianity" means simply the institutionalized church then, yes, in some
ways I probably am a "traitor" because I rebel against some long-standing
traditions of treating women as second class, gay people as sinners, the
body as inferior to the spirit, nature as primarily something to "have
dominion" over etc. However, in each case, it is because of what Jesus has
done for me in my own life, that I choose to rebel. So, if you define
Christianity that way, as simply loving Jesus, then no, I am not a traitor.
I am just someone trying to be faithful to an ongoing love affair with a
really cool savior. :)

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apd3ur$gis4$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> You didn't say you were a traitor to Christianity. .. Ape;)

>
> "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:apc805$bmu2$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > That's not what I said.

> >
> > --
> > Karyn
> > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:apbv3h$92to$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > > What I'm hearing is that only you, and those like you, are the real
> > > Christians. ..

> > > Ape:)
> > >
> > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:apbdeu$2s44$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > I can try. If by "Christianity" you mean institutions with Christian
> > names
> > > > on them, politicians quoting the Bible to support their agendas, the
> > idea
> > > > that this is a "Christian nation" and so forth then yes. That is the
> > > status
> > > > quo. If, on the other hand, you mean taking Jesus seriously, working
> for
> > > > social justice, seeing God in "the least of them," and rejecting all
> > > systems

> > > > of oppression. No. That's not the status quo.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Karyn

> > > > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:apadpi$tbcep$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > Could you be a little less cryptic? Ape;)

> > > > >
> > > > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:apaa3v$smiv1$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > It depends what you mean by Christianity.
> > > > > >

> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Karyn
> > > > > > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:27:55 AM10/26/02

to

They get in the way, IMO.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apeavi$qphd$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> yes, but those semantics point to an important reality

>
> --
> Karyn
> "Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

> news:r_xu9.15304$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...

Mitzi M.

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:32:37 AM10/26/02

to

but, but, but... i made the same point.. <pout> :)))

Mitzi

"Eve" <elindispamm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:apdcpv$j2h4$1...@ID-10282.news.dfncis.de...

Mitzi M.

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:34:18 AM10/26/02

to

ROFL..I just about sucked my coffee up my nose.

Mitzi

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

news:xkxu9.15277$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> :) Don't be getting excited about me converting now, LOL. But you've
taught
> me a lot. It's been valuable. I still think you give Paul way too much
> leeway, but I'll let you off.

>
> --
> Melanie
> www.chovhani.com
>
>
>
> Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:ape7d8$o9qf$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:38:51 AM10/26/02

to

LOL, yes, I know. I love words as much as they frustrate me.
--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apec4j$q7gj$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> Well, when we find something besides words to use to communicate ideas,
that
> won't be a problem but, until then, it's all we have to work with.

>
> --
> Karyn
> "Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

> news:Hlyu9.15320$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:47:39 AM10/26/02

to

I have tried non-religious chatrooms, and I just can't get into them.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Mitzi M. <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:apecke$rl84$1...@ID-10142.news.dfncis.de...
> I would do the same thing.. except that the chat room I go to now and
again
> doesn't have anything to do with religion :)
>
> Mitzi

>
> "Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

> news:Egwu9.15185$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...

Derek

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:50:32 AM10/26/02

to

Concerned...No,not at all..you reap what you sow imo

Derek
"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apebou$qe00$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> and that is what you are concerned about?

>
> --
> Karyn
> "Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:apeb79$pq3p$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...
> > Well according to previous posts Christianity is being severely
persecuted
> > all arund the world

> > Derek
> > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:apeato$qad4$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:06:26 AM10/26/02

to

Yes, your version makes more sense.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ape6k2$nl1j$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Derek

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:55:00 AM10/26/02

to

Do you consider Islam to be a truthful religion?
Derek

"Mitzi M." <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:apecqj$r92c$1...@ID-10142.news.dfncis.de...
> in MY opinion if the world is attacking another religion one should learn
as
> much about that religion as possible... look for the good things about
that
> religion. One thing I've learned and loved about Islam is the way they
> pray.. and I also am starting to understand the beauty of keeping women
> covered..
>
> Mitzi

>
>
> "Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:ape8ip$odvc$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:18:26 AM10/26/02

to

:) Don't be getting excited about me converting now, LOL. But you've taught
me a lot. It's been valuable. I still think you give Paul way too much
leeway, but I'll let you off.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:ape7d8$o9qf$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:18:56 AM10/26/02

to

No-one's beliefs should ever be under attack.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Maris <marissm...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ape7g6$qc21$1...@ID-29845.news.dfncis.de...
> It's sad that what anyone believes should be a point of persecution. No
> faith is really meant to do that, or allow that. I'm sorry that
> Christianity is under attack.
>
> --
> Love and Light,
> Maris
>
> Follow your bliss. (Joseph Campbell)
>
>

> "Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 9:28:12 AM10/26/02

to

sorry. I didn't know I was doing research for you. Frankly, I expected you
to be combing the internet for data to prove me wrong. :)

--
Karyn
"naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:apd4ah$g1vr$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> Who wrote the story. It reads like an editorial. Also, why isn't any of
the
> "information" given attribution? And while I'm asking, why didn't you send
> me to this web page first? I needlessly blew a lot of my time at the
> religious tolerance site. .. Ape;)

>
> "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:apca50$bj3q$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/prsecutn/plight.html

> >
> > --
> > Karyn
> > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:apbv7k$8a8l$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > > I didn't see numbers or percentages at the Religious Tolerance site.

..
> > > Ape;)
> > >
> > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:apbdn6$2e7e$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > Christians are the largest group experiencing such persecution. It's
a
> > > > simple case of numbers. We don't experience it here in this country
> > > because
> > > > we are basically Christian dominated. However, in other parts of the
> > world
> > > > that is not the case.
> > > >
> > > > Just to be clear, I am not saying that religious persecution against
> > > > Christians is *worse* than persecution against any other group. It's
> all
> > > > pretty bad and it's all intolerable imo.

> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Karyn
> > > > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:apadvg$t30nl$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > Yes, it was about religious persecution, but nothing I read
> supported
> > > the
> > > > > contention that Christians were the most heavily persecuted. All
> > > religions
> > > > > persecute each other evenly. .. Ape;)

> > > > >
> > > > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:apaa25$t63g0$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > Information about different forms of religious persecution,
places
> > you
> > > > > could
> > > > > > go to learn more about it.

> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Karyn
> > > > > > "naked ape" <naked...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > news:apa9o8$sr1op$1...@ID-10187.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > Okay. I looked. What was I supposed to see? Ape;)

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:apa7q3$s7n0p$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > > http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_overv.htm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Karyn
> > > > > > > > "Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:ap9qop$ta5f6$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > > > Lets hear the data.

> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > > news:ap9ppb$s4mtl$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > > > > Actually, it's pretty verifiable information.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Karyn
> > > > > > > > > > "Dennis" <dennisl...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:ap9l9l$sqao2$1...@ID-10190.news.dfncis.de...
> > > > > > > > > > > A Christian editor ?

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:28:10 AM10/26/02

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I have no interest in converting you. Being your friend is cool enough.

--
Karyn
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

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Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:39:30 AM10/26/02

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Stomp on their toes:)

Hey, I wish I knew. The Pagans try to teach by example. Sometimes it works.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Derek <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
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Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:43:01 AM10/26/02

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Just as well:)

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Maris

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:05:12 AM10/26/02

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It's sad that what anyone believes should be a point of persecution. No
faith is really meant to do that, or allow that. I'm sorry that
Christianity is under attack.

--
Love and Light,
Maris

Follow your bliss. (Joseph Campbell)

"Rien" <phea...@pheasantsnest.com> wrote in message

news:apc5jj$an13$1...@ID-151337.news.dfncis.de...
Of course Maris. No attack read in your post.
But facts are facts, yes?
Rien.
---------
"Maris" <marissm...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:apbmro$5mr1$1...@ID-29845.news.dfncis.de...
> What goes around, comes around?
>
> I know that seems harsh, but Christianity has a history of persecuting the
> members of other faiths. Missionary work to change the religions of
ancient
> cultures. Removing Native American children from their parents and
putting
> them in church schools. The Native Americans, themselves. The Crusades.
> The Salem Witch Trials, although those people weren't really "witches".
> With a couple of hours of research, I could fill several pages.
>
> Please don't view this as a flame attack.
>
> I have nothing against Christianity, understand. This is just an answer
to
> a question that has been posted.
>
> --
> Love and Light,
> Maris
>
> Follow your bliss. (Joseph Campbell)
>
>

Derek

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:51:38 AM10/26/02

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Sure but,..as I said to Karyn that won`t stop the attacks
Derek

"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

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Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:52:10 AM10/26/02

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I am an evangelist not a masochist.

--
Karyn
"Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message

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Derek

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Oct 26, 2002, 10:58:05 AM10/26/02

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no, are you?

Derek
"Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:04:04 AM10/26/02

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LOL!!!

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Karyn <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Mitzi M.

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Oct 26, 2002, 12:54:00 PM10/26/02

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hmmm.... t thought provoking question.. I have to find the relevancy of
Truth. For me, this is Truth.. what we call God is one energy.. the
pulse of the Universe and I do think that Islam is a path that searches for
that. I look at Islam from the higher teachings, the Sufi teachings...
and there in lies the truth. Islam can be full of lies or it can be full of
truths, it's up to the individual..

Mitzi
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:apedo8$oa0j$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...

Karyn

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:19:28 AM10/26/02

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and that is what you are concerned about?

--

Karyn
"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:apeb79$pq3p$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...
> Well according to previous posts Christianity is being severely persecuted
> all arund the world

> Derek
> "Karyn" <Karyn...@msn.com> wrote in message

> news:apeato$qad4$1...@ID-10225.news.dfncis.de...

Mitzi M.

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:36:44 AM10/26/02

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in MY opinion if the world is attacking another religion one should learn as
much about that religion as possible... look for the good things about that
religion. One thing I've learned and loved about Islam is the way they
pray.. and I also am starting to understand the beauty of keeping women
covered..

Mitzi

"Derek" <Stagh...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:ape8ip$odvc$1...@ID-11056.news.dfncis.de...
> so if one religious group attacks all others...whats the best way to deal
> with it?
> DErek
> "Chovhani" <chov...@india.com> wrote in message
> news:_kxu9.15278$Kf.18...@news20.bellglobal.com...

Chovhani

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Oct 26, 2002, 11:51:02 AM10/26/02

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The key for me with the covering is that it's beautiful if it's her choice.
If it is forced either by dress code or shame...it's a prison.

--
Melanie
www.chovhani.com

Mitzi M. <nospamspi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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