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Art is in the Eye of the Beholder

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Chovhani

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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If I like it, it's art.

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Melanie aka Chovhani
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Felida <cats...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Actually, John, I saw more pure art in the paintings of Ruby the elephant
than i do in a lot of works hanging in art museums and passing themselves
off as "art"

Felida

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Melanie aka Chovhani
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Whitetiger

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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If it speaks, it lives. <G>

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Sandy
Color Each Day. People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"Chovhani" <melanie...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
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John S. McEnery

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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No comment

Spiderwomon

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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if it farts, it smells...

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Spiderwomon


Whitetiger wrote in message <81jk5e$1t0t8$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Chovhani

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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I'd like you to comment. I have a very thick skin, and I've done this argument a gazillion times.

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Melanie aka Chovhani
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Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Whitetiger

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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Ş

--
Sandy
Color Each Day. People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.

"Spiderwomon" <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message
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Meggie

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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if it farts, it smells...

**************
I was doing OK until this one.......

ROFLMAO

Meggie

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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if it pleases, it fits

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Dennis

Whitetiger <Newsgrou...@aol.com> wrote in message
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> If it speaks, it lives. <G>
>

> --
> Sandy
> Color Each Day. People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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I though it was if it farts it's male.

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Dennis

Meggie <m...@pacifier.com> wrote in message
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Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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Chovhani

I still have much refrigerator art from my kids school days.

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Dennis

Chovhani <melanie...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
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> If I like it, it's art.
>

Ape

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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Nope. .. Women too. .. They just aren't as proud. ..  Ape
Dennis Lomenzo <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81jod0$1t7vh$1...@fu-berlin.de...

John S. McEnery

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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All art is the distillation of experience. If it is to speak to anyone but its creator...it must use, at least for the major part, a language which the readers can understand and appreciate...and to tell its story well it must be the result of polished and trained technique.
 
Smears on paper, relatively untrained children strumming guitars or pounding on pianos or drums may be expressing their ideas ...but in most cases the ideas aren't worth expressing formally.
If Plato  or Descartes had an idea and you have the same one...and he said it better than you...your expounding of it is a waste of your time and that of your listeners.
 
If you paint a Study in gray and black featuring your mother in a rocking chair you better do it with a finer technique and be more true to your subject than was Whistler or you are smearing paint, not communicating
John
 
 
 
 
I'd like you to comment. I have a very thick skin, and I've done this argument a gazillion times.
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Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
No comment

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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John
 
"it must use, at least for the major part........
 
If it must ----it is not art.

--
Dennis

Meggie

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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ÿþ< ! D O C T Y P E H T M L P U B L I C " - / / W 3 C / / D T D H T M L 4 . 0 T r a n s i t i o n a l / / E N " > < H T M L > < H E A D > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " t e x t / h t m l ; c h a r s e t = u n i c o d e " h t t p - e q u i v = C o n t e n t - T y p e > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " M S H T M L 5 . 0 0 . 2 3 1 4 . 1 0 0 0 " n a m e = G E N E R A T O R > < S T Y L E > < / S T Y L E > < / H E A D > < B O D Y b g C o l o r = # f f f f f f > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > < D I V > < F O N T s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > S m e a r s o n p a p e r , r e l a t i v e l y u n t r a i n e d c h i l d r e n s t r u m m i n g g u i t a r s o r p o u n d i n g o n p i a n o s o r d r u m s m a y b e e x p r e s s i n g t h e i r i d e a s . . . b u t i n m o s t c a s e s t h e i d e a s a r e n ' t w o r t h e x p r e s s i n g f o r m a l l y . < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f P l a t o & n b s p ; o r D e s c a r t e s h a d a n i d e a a n d y o u h a v e t h e s a m e o n e . . . a n d h e s a i d i t b e t t e r t h a n y o u . . . y o u r e x p o u n d i n g o f i t i s a w a s t e o f y o u r t i m e a n d t h a t o f y o u r l i s t e n e r s . < / D I V > < H R > < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > T w o t h i n g s . < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > W h a t i f t h e c h i l d i s a p r o d i g y . . . . . . . h a s a n a t u r a l g i f t f o r m u s i c m a k i n g o r a r t ? < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > W h a t i f y o u h a v e t h e s a m e i d e a a s P l a t o , b u t y o u r l i s t e n e r s h a v e n o t h e a r d P l a t o ' s , b u t t h e y a r e h e a r i n g y o u r s ? < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > M e g g i e < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < / B O D Y > < / H T M L >

John S. McEnery

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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ÿþ< ! D O C T Y P E H T M L P U B L I C " - / / W 3 C / / D T D H T M L 4 . 0 T r a n s i t i o n a l / / E N " > < H T M L > < H E A D > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " t e x t / h t m l ; c h a r s e t = u n i c o d e " h t t p - e q u i v = C o n t e n t - T y p e > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " M S H T M L 5 . 0 0 . 2 6 1 4 . 3 4 0 1 " n a m e = G E N E R A T O R > < S T Y L E > < / S T Y L E > < / H E A D > < B O D Y b g C o l o r = # f f f f f f > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f a p r o d i g y . . . h e b e t t e r l e a r n t h e t e c h n i q u e s o f t h e t r a d e < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f H e n e v e r h e a r d o f P l a t o o r D e s c a r t e s . . . h e r e a l l y d o e s n ' t h a v e m u c h e x c u s e f o r t r y i n g t o l e a r n a n y t h i n g a b o u t P h i l o s o p h y . & n b s p ; G i v e h i m a b o o k . < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > J o h n < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < B L O C K Q U O T E s t y l e = " B O R D E R - L E F T : # 0 0 0 0 8 0 2 p x s o l i d ; M A R G I N - L E F T : 5 p x ; M A R G I N - R I G H T : 0 p x ; P A D D I N G - L E F T : 5 p x ; P A D D I N G - R I G H T : 0 p x " > < D I V > M e g g i e & l t ; < A h r e f = " m a i l t o : m j t @ p a c i f i e r . c o m " > m j t @ p a c i f i e r . c o m < / A > & g t ; w r o t e i n m e s s a g e < A h r e f = " n e w s : 8 1 k q 9 0 $ 1 v 4 2 3 $ 1 @ f u - b e r l i n . d e " > n e w s : 8 1 k q 9 0 $ 1 v 4 2 3 $ 1 @ f u - b e r l i n . d e < / A > . . . < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > < D I V > < F O N T s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > S m e a r s o n p a p e r , r e l a t i v e l y u n t r a i n e d c h i l d r e n s t r u m m i n g g u i t a r s o r p o u n d i n g o n p i a n o s o r d r u m s m a y b e e x p r e s s i n g t h e i r i d e a s . . . b u t i n m o s t c a s e s t h e i d e a s a r e n ' t w o r t h e x p r e s s i n g f o r m a l l y . < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f P l a t o & n b s p ; o r D e s c a r t e s h a d a n i d e a a n d y o u h a v e t h e s a m e o n e . . . a n d h e s a i d i t b e t t e r t h a n y o u . . . y o u r e x p o u n d i n g o f i t i s a w a s t e o f y o u r t i m e a n d t h a t o f y o u r l i s t e n e r s . < / D I V > < H R > < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > T w o t h i n g s . < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > W h a t i f t h e c h i l d i s a p r o d i g y . . . . . . . h a s a n a t u r a l g i f t f o r m u s i c m a k i n g o r a r t ? < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > W h a t i f y o u h a v e t h e s a m e i d e a a s P l a t o , b u t y o u r l i s t e n e r s h a v e n o t h e a r d P l a t o ' s , b u t t h e y a r e h e a r i n g y o u r s ? < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > M e g g i e < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < / B L O C K Q U O T E > < / B O D Y > < / H T M L >

Meggie

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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ÿþ< ! D O C T Y P E H T M L P U B L I C " - / / W 3 C / / D T D H T M L 4 . 0 T r a n s i t i o n a l / / E N " > < H T M L > < H E A D > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " t e x t / h t m l ; c h a r s e t = u n i c o d e " h t t p - e q u i v = C o n t e n t - T y p e > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " M S H T M L 5 . 0 0 . 2 3 1 4 . 1 0 0 0 " n a m e = G E N E R A T O R > < S T Y L E > < / S T Y L E > < / H E A D > < B O D Y b g C o l o r = # f f f f f f > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f a p r o d i g y . . . h e b e t t e r l e a r n t h e t e c h n i q u e s o f t h e t r a d e < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f H e n e v e r h e a r d o f P l a t o o r D e s c a r t e s . . . h e r e a l l y d o e s n ' t h a v e m u c h e x c u s e f o r t r y i n g t o l e a r n a n y t h i n g a b o u t P h i l o s o p h y . & n b s p ; G i v e h i m a b o o k . < / D I V > < H R > < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I a m j u s t g o i n g t o g i v e t h i s u p n o w c u z i t a i n ' t g o n n a g o n o w h e r e . : ) < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > M e g g i e < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < / B O D Y > < / H T M L >

Ape

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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  So the Canon on Art is also closed. .. My, my. .. I hate to tell you this, John, but the world didn't come to a standstill the day you graduated from college. ..
  Ape

Spiderwomon

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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The Few, The Proud.....

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Ape wrote in message <81jvks$1stgv$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Spiderwomon

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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My kids are gonna just die when I make their "Graduation Collages" because
they are only 6 and 10 and I already have cases of their art saved up...

--
Spiderwomon


Dennis Lomenzo wrote in message <81joft$1t7i4$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Spiderwomon

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Nov 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/25/99
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Well PMP, Meggie. I am rolling on the floor dying laughing!

--
Spiderwomon

Chovhani

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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<smiling sweetly> you are entitled to your opinion John. I was going to give you some of my thoughts, but it doesn't matter now.

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Melanie aka Chovhani
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Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Melanie:
Your thoughts are always welcome...I've learned a lot from things you've written even when I dont necessarily agree.
John

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Melanie
 
Art awakes what is in the observer.

--
Dennis

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Spiderwomon.

I think this is a great idea. It will show them in a way what they were and
are.

--
Dennis

Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message

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Chovhani

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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I know that Dennis:)

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Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
Dennis Lomenzo <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81m70q$1uubq$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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John
 
"Smears on paper, "
"pounding on pianos "
 
Just a hint,. These can be considered insulting where the intent appears to be to demean rather then state an opinion.
 
 
Dennis

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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As is lecturing one who has spent his life dealing with the written and spoken word and who picks his words with a great amount of care..
 
Dennis Lomenzo <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mccs$1unqv$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Chovhani

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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<pats self on head for header>

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Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
IMHO, art is not defined by appealing to the creation or the creator, or even some people's opinion.  The definition of art is in the beholder.  If a work evokes an emotion within me, even anger or disgust, makes me think, changes me in any way, then it is art.  It may be bad art, good art, badly executed art or technically proficient art.  But as long as it moves someone other than the creator, it is art, and worthwhile.  Just because you don't think it is art, doesn't make it artless.  I have seen some technically proficient pieces that I did not consider art, but others did, so I can't say it is not art, I can only say it is not art FOR ME.  Even critics disagree, John.
 
Krystal

Krystal

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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IMHO, art is not defined by appealing to the creation or the creator, or even some people's opinion.  The definition of art is in the beholder.  If a work evokes an emotion within me, even anger or disgust, makes me think, changes me in any way, then it is art.  It may be bad art, good art, badly executed art or technically proficient art.  But as long as it moves someone other than the creator, it is art, and worthwhile.  Just because you don't think it is art, doesn't make it artless.  I have seen some technically proficient pieces that I did not consider art, but others did, so I can't say it is not art, I can only say it is not art FOR ME.  Even critics disagree, John.
 
Krystal

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Krystal:
I agree 100 %...even critics disagree and I disagree with those who would lower the standards to the lowest possible level....simple as that.
John
 

Ape

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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  I see art everywhere in almost everything. .. Movies are the best, but my `86 Nissan 200SX still sends shivers up and down my spine whenever I see it, especially the 3/4 view from the front standing about 40 feet away. ..
  Ape

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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John
 
"would lower the standards to the lowest possible level.."
 
Reminds me of the guy who told Disney he was not cut out to be an artist because his cartoons were not artful.
 
I'll be darn if I can remember the guys name.
 
O well.
 
--
Dennis

Chovhani

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Or the record company executive who laughed the Beatles out of the room. What was his name? <G>

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
Dennis Lomenzo <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mkpa$1vp07$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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PS John,
 
What do you think of the idea that there are no original thoughts left,  just different ways of expressing them?

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81koc1$1v5uk$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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I love things like this.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day. People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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John,
 
I see where you're coming from here.  I wonder though if one might be underestimating the viewer if they cannot distinguish between the value of a Warhol and a Renoir or Van Gogh,  classically speaking.  Also,  different modalities of art carry different standards in different regions of the world.
 
Granted,  a child prodigy is not going to be able to sit down and immediately plunk out Grieg's "Symphony in A Minor"...  and yet the building blocks are there.  I would argue,  as would Otto Rank and others who have studied the genesis of the artistic personality,  that the entire journey and training of an artist is a work of art in itself.
 
Finally,  what of matters of taste? 

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81koc1$1v5uk$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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That is the essence of what the artist tries to do...  send the recipient pure distilled experience.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"Dennis Lomenzo" <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81m70q$1uubq$1...@fu-berlin.de...

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Sandy:
With all due respect...possession of the building blocks does not make one an artist...just as possession of a pile of lumber does not make one a carpenter.
The potential may be there but a certain level of competency in the field is required to create a habitable dwelling.
Personally, though I do not like a great deal of Warhol's work,...he was, unmistakably, an artist,. and a good one too.
His work, as distasteful as some of it is to me, does meet the requirements of being art...not necessarily "Great Art" but still it does meet at least the minimum level.....
John
 

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Sandy:
I dont think about it too much...it would appear that there may be some truth in the idea but then along comes an Einstein, a Buckminster Fuller, a Louis Pasteur, a Marie Curie, a Bob Goddard, a Sigmund Freud, a Grace Hopper...and there goes another idea...out the window.
John

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Sandy
 
I agree it's a different form of communication. Almost a soul to soul thing.

--
Dennis

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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John,
 
I think they are referring more to the process,  not just the blocks.  Before an artist reaches critical mass they have periods where they produce...  it is interesting to see these pieces.  One person I am thinking of here is Anais Nin.  She wrote better at 10 years of age than I do now.  I would call her early diaries art.
 
I share your view of Warhol,  but even without any art appreciation I hope people would see the difference in style and genre.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81moh3$205l6$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Chovhani

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Yes, that's it. Same with music. If it touches the soul...yes.

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
Dennis Lomenzo <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mpgt$1vh76$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Yep.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"Dennis Lomenzo" <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mpgt$1vh76$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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So it goes...

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Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mp0o$1vqaf$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Ape

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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And this from the man who wears Hawaiian shirts. ..  Ape

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Sandy:
Lawrence Durrell..was an innovative and groundbreaking writer...his work is of a style not to my liking...but there is no doubt that a great deal of what he wrote had that stamp that said "art"
But his "Black Book" which is a collection of pieces works in progress, experiments, trial runs and what have you...tho it comes from the pen of an artist is nothing but dross...it's a work book and as such, probably of value to him in the pursuit of his craft and maybe to students of his work...but it aint art...
It was published, amid a great deal of publicity...and references to his real work..and it sold a lot of copies...but that didn't make it art.
John

Ape

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Any definition of original thought, wouldn't be original. ..  Ape

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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John,
 
I guess that's where we differ in the diaries and workbook area...  I thrill to see the little nuggets there,  and to me that makes it art.  Rough,  granted,  but art.  I'm a process person so that is going to inform my perception.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mqgp$20g98$1...@fu-berlin.de...
Sandy:
Lawrence Durrell..was an innovative and groundbreaking writer...his work is of a style not to my liking...but there is no doubt that a great deal of what he wrote had that stamp that said "art"
But his "Black Book" which is a collection of pieces works in progress, experiments, trial runs and what have you...tho it comes from the pen of an artist is nothing but dross...it's a work book and as such, probably of value to him in the pursuit of his craft and maybe to students of his work...but it aint art...
It was published, amid a great deal of publicity...and references to his real work..and it sold a lot of copies...but that didn't make it art.
John

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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It's OK...  it's art to me,  and not to you...  If it wasn't for difference in opinion and taste,  there wouldn't be a market for so many artists.  I don't think I'm misunderstanding you,  or am I?

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mrp4$1vi1k$1...@fu-berlin.de...
Sandy:
I think you are reading more than I said...I didn't say that the work was without value...I bought a copy because it was just that, a polished up workbook...but valuable, interesting, or whatever...it is not art.
John

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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LOL

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Sandy:
I think you are reading more than I said...I didn't say that the work was without value...I bought a copy because it was just that, a polished up workbook...but valuable, interesting, or whatever...it is not art.
John

John S. McEnery

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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I haven't any vested interest in what others call Art...except that there is an awful lot of stuff around that is traveling under the name of it that might be called something else
I keep remembering the artists response to someone who gushed that it must be wonderful to "have so much talent"
"Talent doesn't mean anything with out a lifetime of hard work to refine it"
There are an awful lot of hard working artists who are offended by the common practice of calling anything drawn, painted or written "art"
John...who thinks them justified in their attitudes.
 
 
 

Felida

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Sandy,
Did you mean the Piano concerto in a minor?  I don't think he wrote a symphony in that key, did he?

Felida
"Whitetiger" <Newsgrou...@aol.com> wrote in message news:81mn31$20etf$8...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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As someone who has worn through 3 copies of "Letters to a Young Poet,"  you know I agree with that.  LOL

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mu5t$1vvbq$1...@fu-berlin.de...
I haven't any vested interest in what others call Art...except that there is an awful lot of stuff around that is traveling under the name of it that might be called something else
I keep remembering the artists response to someone who gushed that it must be wonderful to "have so much talent"
"Talent doesn't mean anything with out a lifetime of hard work to refine it"
There are an awful lot of hard working artists who are offended by the common practice of calling anything drawn, painted or written "art"
John...who thinks them justified in their attitudes.
 
 
 

Whitetiger

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Nov 26, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/26/99
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Oops...  yes,  it is the concerto.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.

Chovhani

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Hmm...a few years ago a man came to my door selling art, fairly big canvasses, technically impeccable, dull as dishwater. They might as well have been painting by numbers. The artists were obviously highly skilled, well-trained, probably been through a good art school and then had a fair bit of experience too. Almost photographic quality. Emotionally dead. Bereft of any feeling.
 
I told him straight, I'd rather hang up my kids stuff from school than this. He went on and on about the quality of the work, and how we should suppprt our starving talented people. If that's talent you can keep it. They churn these out, 3 at a time, they all look the same. A perfect sky here, a perfect tree there, and always a little cottage in the clearing. You see them in the malls "Amazing Art Sale! Sofa sized prints only $200!!!"  Some furntiture stores give them away. The frame is often the most interesting part. Destined for airport hallways I think.
 
If this is art you can keep it.

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
I haven't any vested interest in what others call Art...except that there is an awful lot of stuff around that is traveling under the name of it that might be called something else
I keep remembering the artists response to someone who gushed that it must be wonderful to "have so much talent"
"Talent doesn't mean anything with out a lifetime of hard work to refine it"
There are an awful lot of hard working artists who are offended by the common practice of calling anything drawn, painted or written "art"
John...who thinks them justified in their attitudes.
 
 
 

Whitetiger

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Actually,  I think those things are paint by number...  or stencil.  No particular skill necessary except perhaps to color inside the lines.  <shudder>

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.

Meggie

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Hey now.. coloring inside lines IS a skill :)

Meggie

Whitetiger

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Yeah... I can't do it. <BG>

--
Sandy
Color Each Day. People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.

"Meggie" <m...@pacifier.com> wrote in message
news:81ouga$20a7h$1...@fu-berlin.de...


> Hey now.. coloring inside lines IS a skill :)
>
> Meggie
>
>

Chovhani

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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ROFL!!!!!

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Meggie <m...@pacifier.com> wrote in message
news:81ouga$20a7h$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> Hey now.. coloring inside lines IS a skill :)
>
> Meggie
>
>

John S. McEnery

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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That's not art....that's production line stuff...the landlord described the process...and essentially it is "painting by the numbers"
You go to SE Asia to a city and hire 20 people at maybe 30 cents a day each...a tree man,a sky man, a water man, a cloud man...etc...You hire someone to take a picture./..you blow it up, have a tech eliminate all the color and trace it onto a master with written instructions for each element of the picture and send the master to the factory..where each person is told what his job on this particular painting will be.... the master is then reproduced onto canvases ( of several sizes) and the canvases are painted by the crew.
Amortized cost per picture usually under $1.00.
You are right it is not art.
John

Felida

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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I bought some paintings overseas.  I don't care if they aren't great art.  The one of the country road with the trees with autumn colors and a split rail fence (none of which are known in the Philippines) reminded me of home when i was very far from it.  I still have it hanging in the family room.  Sure, maybe they copied it off a calendar or something, but know what?  I don't really care.  I saw a painting that said something to me. 
 
Felida
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81ovli$21l2r$1...@fu-berlin.de...

John S. McEnery

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Fine...anything that will gussy up a house or room or which has significance to someone is good...it just isn't...oh well...
(g)
John

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Art is just stuff unless we say its more.
 
I have seem the Mona Lisa in Paris and without knowing its history it actually not that good a painting. It is not very impressive up front, yet there was a line to see it. It's the history.
 
I have seen the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel in Rome and the location, plus history is the art of it. It's the mental picture of the painter that is awesome.
 
I have seen the Venus statue and its the history of it that is the fascination. Heck it's broken.
 
I have stood on columns in Rome and its there place in history that moved me, not the marble.
 
I have spends days in the National Museum in Washington DC and lets face it the Van Goghs and who ever are just old (actually not very good) paintings unless one knows the stories that go with them.
 
The real definition of art is not in the quality of the thing at all. It's always in what goes with it.
 
In San Francisco I saw several paintings by children who had been sick from birth and lived there entire lives in a hospital environment. They were on display in a major museum just like the things above. They painted the world as they saw it which is all any artist does and when they were being treated as art they became art. People would study each as they walked by. They would point out things to each other. They were talking about what they felt the artist had in mind.
 
That's all art is. It's that which awakens things in us.

--
Dennis

Chovhani

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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I think so too. It's the only definition that will ever work for me. Gainsboroughs leave me stone cold. But I like the Mona Lisa, have you ever studied the background? I want to climb right in and explore!

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
Dennis Lomenzo <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81p7bj$21r48$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Good point about the Mona Lisa...

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"Dennis Lomenzo" <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81p7bj$21r48$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Felida

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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The things i remember most about the Mona Lisa were the hands.  Don't know why hands fascinate me, but when i saw the painting, the rest of it left me cold but i liked the hands.
 
Saw Michaelangelo's Pieta once.   Now that one rocked me.  I knew it was stone but it looked warm and alive.  now THAT is a piece of art.
 
Felida

John S. McEnery

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Gainsboroughs works, at least a lot of them were, heads attached to stock body paintings...tho some of his stuff was fairly good....he was a portraitist which severely limited his scope.....
 
La Gioconda  ( both paintings)is an example of my point
daVinci was not, primarially an artist ( if at all) he was an designer and engineer...the painting was not considered of any artistic significance  for at least 300 years until Artistic Criticism of the Romantic period tended to cast a glow of "Greatness" around anything he had done.
Very few artists or critics, today consider it to be anything but the work of an (extremely ) talented amateur
John...who finds the picture fun  and interesting to look at ...but wouldn't put in a class with that of any professional....but then I have problems with the Romantic period's evaluation of anything (g)

John S. McEnery

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Absolutely...because like all great art it has a meaning of its own which leads you to a meaning beyond and above itself...in other words it is a symbol for something beyond what is shown.
John

Chovhani

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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I'm sorry but I just can't help feeling you're missing the whole point.

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Ape

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Some only judge the credit line and not the work itself. ..  Ape

John S. McEnery

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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It's happened before, and will again...so it's quite possible...continue......
John

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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John
 
Have you ever actually seen any art. This book stuff is fun to read from you but ........

--
Dennis

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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John
 
rude is
" No comment'
 

--
Dennis
No comment
If I like it, it's art.

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
Felida <cats...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:81ji70$1s6l3$1...@fu-berlin.de...
Actually, John, I saw more pure art in the paintings of Ruby the elephant
than i do in a lot of works hanging in art museums and passing themselves
off as "art"

Felida

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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ÿþ< ! D O C T Y P E H T M L P U B L I C " - / / W 3 C / / D T D H T M L 4 . 0 T r a n s i t i o n a l / / E N " > < H T M L > < H E A D > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " t e x t / h t m l ; c h a r s e t = u n i c o d e " h t t p - e q u i v = C o n t e n t - T y p e > < M E T A c o n t e n t = " M S H T M L 5 . 0 0 . 2 3 1 4 . 1 0 0 0 " n a m e = G E N E R A T O R > < S T Y L E > < / S T Y L E > < / H E A D > < B O D Y b g C o l o r = # f f f f f f > < D I V > J o h n < / D I V > < D I V > " h e r e a l l y d o e s n ' t h a v e m u c h e x c u s e f o r t r y i n g t o l e a r n a n y t h i n g a b o u t P h i l o s o p h y . & n b s p ; G i v e h i m a b o o k . " < / D I V > < D I V > < B R > - - < B R > D e n n i s < B R > < / D I V > < B L O C K Q U O T E s t y l e = " B O R D E R - L E F T : # 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 p x s o l i d ; M A R G I N - L E F T : 5 p x ; M A R G I N - R I G H T : 0 p x ; P A D D I N G - L E F T : 5 p x ; P A D D I N G - R I G H T : 0 p x " > < D I V > J o h n S . M c E n e r y & l t ; < A h r e f = " m a i l t o : b i g j o h n m c e n e r y @ e m a i l . m s n . c o m " > b i g j o h n m c e n e r y @ e m a i l . m s n . c o m < / A > & g t ; w r o t e i n m e s s a g e < A h r e f = " n e w s : 8 1 k r 1 f $ 1 t 3 8 2 $ 1 @ f u - b e r l i n . d e " > n e w s : 8 1 k r 1 f $ 1 t 3 8 2 $ 1 @ f u - b e r l i n . d e < / A > . . . < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f a p r o d i g y . . . h e b e t t e r l e a r n t h e t e c h n i q u e s o f t h e t r a d e < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f H e n e v e r h e a r d o f P l a t o o r D e s c a r t e s . . . h e r e a l l y d o e s n ' t h a v e m u c h e x c u s e f o r t r y i n g t o l e a r n a n y t h i n g a b o u t P h i l o s o p h y . & n b s p ; G i v e h i m a b o o k . < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T f a c e = V e r d a n a s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > J o h n < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < B L O C K Q U O T E s t y l e = " B O R D E R - L E F T : # 0 0 0 0 8 0 2 p x s o l i d ; M A R G I N - L E F T : 5 p x ; M A R G I N - R I G H T : 0 p x ; P A D D I N G - L E F T : 5 p x ; P A D D I N G - R I G H T : 0 p x " > < D I V > M e g g i e & l t ; < A h r e f = " m a i l t o : m j t @ p a c i f i e r . c o m " > m j t @ p a c i f i e r . c o m < / A > & g t ; w r o t e i n m e s s a g e < A h r e f = " n e w s : 8 1 k q 9 0 $ 1 v 4 2 3 $ 1 @ f u - b e r l i n . d e " > n e w s : 8 1 k q 9 0 $ 1 v 4 2 3 $ 1 @ f u - b e r l i n . d e < / A > . . . < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > < D I V > < F O N T s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > S m e a r s o n p a p e r , r e l a t i v e l y u n t r a i n e d c h i l d r e n s t r u m m i n g g u i t a r s o r p o u n d i n g o n p i a n o s o r d r u m s m a y b e e x p r e s s i n g t h e i r i d e a s . . . b u t i n m o s t c a s e s t h e i d e a s a r e n ' t w o r t h e x p r e s s i n g f o r m a l l y . < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T s i z e = 2 > < S T R O N G > I f P l a t o & n b s p ; o r D e s c a r t e s h a d a n i d e a a n d y o u h a v e t h e s a m e o n e . . . a n d h e s a i d i t b e t t e r t h a n y o u . . . y o u r e x p o u n d i n g o f i t i s a w a s t e o f y o u r t i m e a n d t h a t o f y o u r l i s t e n e r s . < / D I V > < H R > < / S T R O N G > < / F O N T > < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > T w o t h i n g s . < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > W h a t i f t h e c h i l d i s a p r o d i g y . . . . . . . h a s a n a t u r a l g i f t f o r m u s i c m a k i n g o r a r t ? < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > W h a t i f y o u h a v e t h e s a m e i d e a a s P l a t o , b u t y o u r l i s t e n e r s h a v e n o t h e a r d P l a t o ' s , b u t t h e y a r e h e a r i n g y o u r s ? < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < D I V > < F O N T c o l o r = # 8 0 0 0 8 0 f a c e = " C o m i c S a n s M S " s i z e = 4 > M e g g i e < / F O N T > < / D I V > < D I V > & n b s p ; < / D I V > < / B L O C K Q U O T E > < / B L O C K Q U O T E > < / B O D Y > < / H T M L >

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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John
Arrogant is--
" As is lecturing one who has spent his life dealing with the written and spoken word and who picks his words with a great amount of care.."
 
 
Dennis
As is lecturing one who has spent his life dealing with the written and spoken word and who picks his words with a great amount of care..
 
Dennis Lomenzo <Denni...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81mccs$1unqv$1...@fu-berlin.de...
John
 
"Smears on paper, "
"pounding on pianos "
 
Just a hint,. These can be considered insulting where the intent appears to be to demean rather then state an opinion.
 

Dennis
Melanie:
Your thoughts are always welcome...I've learned a lot from things you've written even when I dont necessarily agree.
John
<smiling sweetly> you are entitled to your opinion John. I was going to give you some of my thoughts, but it doesn't matter now.

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
All art is the distillation of experience. If it is to speak to anyone but its creator...it must use, at least for the major part, a language which the readers can understand and appreciate...and to tell its story well it must be the result of polished and trained technique.
 
Smears on paper, relatively untrained children strumming guitars or pounding on pianos or drums may be expressing their ideas ...but in most cases the ideas aren't worth expressing formally.
If Plato  or Descartes had an idea and you have the same one...and he said it better than you...your expounding of it is a waste of your time and that of your listeners.
 
If you paint a Study in gray and black featuring your mother in a rocking chair you better do it with a finer technique and be more true to your subject than was Whistler or you are smearing paint, not communicating
John
 
 
 
 
I'd like you to comment. I have a very thick skin, and I've done this argument a gazillion times.

Spiderwomon

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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LOL! The alternative school where I send my kids (which is a public school
whereby you get in by lottery because of the high demand) coloring within
the lines is never discouraged, but is not by any means incouraged either!

--
Spiderwomon


Meggie wrote in message <81ouga$20a7h$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Spiderwomon

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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And here is a twist.  Would you be more prone to call it art if it were done by someone you are fond of?
 
Not to be presumptuous, but if I showed you my art and a perfect stranger showed you her art, would you be more prone to like mine as art?
 
Does our interpretation of art have anything to do with the artist?
 
What if your mother had painted the Mona Lisa.  I mean that in a sincere and caring way (but then again, you know that), but would we look differently upon the art based on our feelings for the "artist?"

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Dennis Lomenzo wrote in message <81p7bj$21r48$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Spiderwomon

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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I am late entering the game here, but to me, art is a painting that I can look at and study 100 times and find something new each time.  Something that holds hundreds of doors in my mind to imagine and open.

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Chovhani wrote in message <81p8nk$225tk$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Spiderwomon

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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but, Ape, I just replied to Dennis in the opposite of your point.  What if a loved one made the creation.  Is it more artistic to us because of our love for the person who created it?  Not just admiration of a famous name, but love for a loved one.

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Ape wrote in message <81ph4s$20p5t$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

John S. McEnery

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Spider...I dont think so...because I dont see the distinction between Art and non-art as being quantitative...but rather qualitative....if an object has certain qualities it is art...if it doesn't ..it is not...of course most stuff is somewhere in between and that is where the critics can differ......
 
I see a suggestion here ( not just in your posts , but a general pov) that that which is art is in some way "better" than that which is not ...this is a misapprehension, I believe...it is different but not necessarily better.
 
The idea that "art" is "better" rises from the idea that unnecessary things ( those things not necessary for sustaining life) are in some way superior to the necessities.....you might wish to read Thorsten Veblen's Theory of the Leisure Class or any other of a number of books which discuss this particular cultural value system...it's the same kind of warped thinking that says that  a desk worker is somehow "better" than a sanitation worker or farmer.
John
 
Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qb5v$229tl$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Chovhani

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Yes, and rightly so.

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
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Assume Good Intent When Reading:)
Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qb5v$229tl$1...@fu-berlin.de...
And here is a twist.  Would you be more prone to call it art if it were done by someone you are fond of?
 
Not to be presumptuous, but if I showed you my art and a perfect stranger showed you her art, would you be more prone to like mine as art?
 
Does our interpretation of art have anything to do with the artist?
 
What if your mother had painted the Mona Lisa.  I mean that in a sincere and caring way (but then again, you know that), but would we look differently upon the art based on our feelings for the "artist?"

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Dennis Lomenzo wrote in message <81p7bj$21r48$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Chovhani

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Well that's crap. Farmers are the most important people on Earth.
 
<wipes chicken poo off trousers>

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Ape

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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  Spidey,
  I wouldn't make that differentiation. .. As a photojournalist, I constantly judged my own art and craft as objectively as possible. .. Later, when I became a Photo Director, judging the art of others became an integral part of my job. .. I'm as hard on everyone else as I am on myself. .. That's what they paid me for, and yes, I was damn good at it. ..
  Ape
Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qb5v$229tl$1...@fu-berlin.de...
And here is a twist.  Would you be more prone to call it art if it were done by someone you are fond of?
 
Not to be presumptuous, but if I showed you my art and a perfect stranger showed you her art, would you be more prone to like mine as art?
 
Does our interpretation of art have anything to do with the artist?
 
What if your mother had painted the Mona Lisa.  I mean that in a sincere and caring way (but then again, you know that), but would we look differently upon the art based on our feelings for the "artist?"

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Dennis Lomenzo wrote in message <81p7bj$21r48$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

John S. McEnery

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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My point , exactly...but try telling that to the great majority of mommies and daddys who want their kids to go to colletch and get a good desk job...My son/daughter the Doctor, or the Accountant, or the Engineer, or the Lawyer, or the Teacher.....
John

Ape

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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  And art can be a newspaper photo whose craft transcends subject matter and sucks you in subliminally so you'll actually spend a few extra seconds with it and thereby see what the photographer wants to show you. ..
  Ape
Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qb8k$22r5q$1...@fu-berlin.de...
I am late entering the game here, but to me, art is a painting that I can look at and study 100 times and find something new each time.  Something that holds hundreds of doors in my mind to imagine and open.

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Chovhani wrote in message <81p8nk$225tk$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Ape

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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  I'm not arguing against that, Spidey. .. I'm talking about those who would recognize art unless it were somehow sanctioned. ..
  Ape, who believes that all art should speak for itself. ..
Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qbbu$231le$1...@fu-berlin.de...
but, Ape, I just replied to Dennis in the opposite of your point.  What if a loved one made the creation.  Is it more artistic to us because of our love for the person who created it?  Not just admiration of a famous name, but love for a loved one.

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Ape wrote in message <81ph4s$20p5t$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Dennis Lomenzo

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Nov 27, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/27/99
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Spiderwomon
 
"Does our interpretation of art have anything to do with the artist?"
 
Of course.

I like sur-real art. I think it speaks to the engineer and Tao in me. I like the simplicity of it. Some I like without knowing who painted it, but in every case I tend to see more in it if I know the painter also.
 
There are also some pieces that the enjoyment is knowing who painted them more then the painting itself.
 
I have some Japanese art painted by a woman that I consider good paintings, but knowing her and where her life has led to adds to it so now I see it as a great. It's like it is not stand alone art. Hard to explain but what is there requires one to know the painter to see it clearly.
 
 
 
--
Dennis
Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qb5v$229tl$1...@fu-berlin.de...
And here is a twist.  Would you be more prone to call it art if it were done by someone you are fond of?
 
Not to be presumptuous, but if I showed you my art and a perfect stranger showed you her art, would you be more prone to like mine as art?
 
Does our interpretation of art have anything to do with the artist?
 
What if your mother had painted the Mona Lisa.  I mean that in a sincere and caring way (but then again, you know that), but would we look differently upon the art based on our feelings for the "artist?"

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Dennis Lomenzo wrote in message <81p7bj$21r48$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

John S. McEnery

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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There is a movement away from that elitist pov...but it is so ingrained in our cultural value system that It's going to take time.....
A Sanitation worker in our area with some seniority can make a pretty good living and because of the way that the job is structured, many can hold down a part time job as well if they so wish and still work an average work week......I never met a mother who bragged of "her son the garbage man"...but name a job in an urban area that is more significant.
John...
 
Well I'll tell you this. Unless the generation leaving school now think seriously about getting into farming, we're in it DEEP. But I'm optimistic. I see people leaving desk jobs, sick of commuting and stress, and selling their suburban gaol for a piece of land. My township has gone from abandoned old family farms to thriving hobby farms in recent years, and many of the hobbyists are now making it a full-time thing. Lots of changes.
 
BTW it's snowing on the swamp-on-the-hill.

--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Chovhani

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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Well I'll tell you this. Unless the generation leaving school now think seriously about getting into farming, we're in it DEEP. But I'm optimistic. I see people leaving desk jobs, sick of commuting and stress, and selling their suburban gaol for a piece of land. My township has gone from abandoned old family farms to thriving hobby farms in recent years, and many of the hobbyists are now making it a full-time thing. Lots of changes.
 
BTW it's snowing on the swamp-on-the-hill.
--

Melanie aka Chovhani
http://members.delphi.com/mboxall/index.html
Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Spiderwomon

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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i'm with ya there, bud...

--
Spiderwomon
 
 
Ape wrote in message <81qd52$23h3m$1...@fu-berlin.de>...

Chovhani

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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Having seen what happens when they strike, ayyeee, imagine if we didn't have them.

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Melanie aka Chovhani
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Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Whitetiger

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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I'd agree.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"Spiderwomon" <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qb8k$22r5q$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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Tons of examples I can think of there...  famous photos...

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
  And art can be a newspaper photo whose craft transcends subject matter and sucks you in subliminally so you'll actually spend a few extra seconds with it and thereby see what the photographer wants to show you. ..
  Ape
Spiderwomon <6352...@msn.com> wrote in message news:81qb8k$22r5q$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Chovhani

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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Absolutely.
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Melanie aka Chovhani
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Assume Good Intent When Reading:)

Whitetiger

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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Oh,  I'm confused,  John...  it appeared to me that what you wrote below was what you were saying yourself...

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81qbpo$246sp$1...@fu-berlin.de...

John S. McEnery

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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Right!

John S. McEnery

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Nov 28, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/28/99
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That happens...since I to believe in the existence hierarchies and apply them to almost everything I believe and do...I sometimes use language that would imply that there is always a hierarchy of hierarchies....and there are some but not always.
For instance in the subject of desserts..there may be one or more hierarchies. Chocolate ice cream is ( to me) the best possible type of ice cream and is better than any other ice cream but it is in no way better than Pumpkin Pie..it's different not better than....
and thus with Art...within the category of that which is called Art there are categories and within a given category one work may be better than another I might say that for instance, Grant Wood's American Gothic is a better work of type than in Thomas Hart Benton's The American Historical Epic  both being categorized as American Regional Scene painters.....but it would not be legitimate to say that American Gothic is better than Macaroni and Cheese unless one categorizes macaroni and cheese as art. Tho, the landlord, who just looked over my shoulder suggests that if one is categorizes within the area of taste...one who likes Macaroni and Cheese has better taste than one who likes any of Benton's paintings.(vbg)
So...one can say that a given work of art ( within that very broad category) is better or not as good as another...it would not be correct to say that a given work of Art is better or not as good as something which is not art...they are different not necessarily better or worse...
John
 
 
Oh,  I'm confused,  John...  it appeared to me that what you wrote below was what you were saying yourself...

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81qbpo$246sp$1...@fu-berlin.de...

Whitetiger

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Nov 29, 1999, 3:00:00 AM11/29/99
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<G>  I like the landlord,  the more I hear of her.
 
I don't apply the hierarchies in the same way you do,  so we would see this differently.  Mainly,  that I see potential as the acorn of art and worthy of examination on its own... and some even qualifies as actual art.  You see the worth but don't classify it as art in its own right.  Thanks for the explanation though...  you really had me confused for a minute there.

--
Sandy
Color Each Day.  People Smile When You Wear Tie-Dye.
"John S. McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:81rp6u$242tk$1...@fu-berlin.de...
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