faith versus fideism

[Karyn_Carlo]

Just learned a new word, so I am using it in a few sentences. Faith seeks,
asks, and questions in order to grow. Fideism (as distinct from faith) is
the idea that one must stop asking questions and just believe.

--
Karyn

[nywgem]

When the human mind stops asking questions, it dies...

Megwyn..

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:8q56vm$e2gaj$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

[kitty]

The difference between sight and blindness..... imvho.

[fish]

Yesterday the message was "I believe.Help me in my unbelief".

fish

[Naked Ape]

And some just ask the wrong questions. .. Ape;)

[Karyn_Carlo]

Seems I go there pretty often too.

--
Karyn
fish <fi...@ohwhynot.com> wrote in message
news:8q5tqq$e5v2n$1...@ID-21204.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Yesterday the message was "I believe.Help me in my unbelief".
>
> fish
>

[Karyn_Carlo]

Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?

--
Karyn
Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:8q635i$enb9a$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> And some just ask the wrong questions. .. Ape;)
>

[Cyra]

well depends..... on the whole no... there is no such thing as a wrong
question....... but the answer is the different story <G>

--
Cyra
"We can only be what we give ourselves the Power to Be"
A Cherokee Feast of Days
http://www.thesacredgrove.com
http://witch.drak.net/cyrascauldron

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Sure. ..

[Karyn_Carlo]

Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka fideism, is it wrong
to ask questions?

--
Karyn
Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Peefis,
Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on faith rather
than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally don't see any
correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is such a thing
as a definitive religious truth other than the fact that humans are the
source of all spirituality, so to me, there's really no difference between
faith and fideism for each is that point where one stops asking questions
and embraces an answer. ..
Ape

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:39C79259...@yahoo.com...
> "fideism" and "faith" come from the same Latin derivative. i don't think
your definition of faith is really all that accurate. faith is closer to
fideism than you assume. faith, fideism, and fidelity all have the same
latin root. faith and fideism both require belief without need of certain
proof. fidelity is unquestioning loyalty to a set of vows. i think there
must be a better word to describe asking and questioning. "quest" was used
in another post. "seeker" is often used. how about "infidelity" (infidel)
as the opposite of fidelity?

[Marylyn]

There is such a thing as reasonable faith.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. How
would it differ from fideism? Ape;)

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka fideism, is it
wrong
> to ask questions?
>
> --
> Karyn

> Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Sure. ..
> >
> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn

> > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q635i$enb9a$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > And some just ask the wrong questions. .. Ape;)
> > > >
> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8q56vm$e2gaj$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

How is faith ever reasonable? Ape

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> There is such a thing as reasonable faith.
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Peefis,
> > Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on faith
rather
> > than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally don't see
any

> > correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is such a
> thing

[Karyn_Carlo]

correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship with the Christ who
saved my life
--
Karyn

Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. How
> would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
>
> "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka fideism, is it
> wrong
> > to ask questions?
> >
> > --
> > Karyn

> > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Sure. ..
> > >
> > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Karyn

> > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Marylyn]

I can only speak of my own life Ape... my faith is based upon a
relationship, one that has been the same for about 27 years now and that has
been proven in many ways. Just as I know my mother, or my husband, can be
expected to do or not do certain things, so has God been reliable in my
life. That's where my faith was born and it's where it's constantly
confirmed, reasonably.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8ets$eht0p$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> How is faith ever reasonable? Ape
>
> "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > There is such a thing as reasonable faith.
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Peefis,
> > > Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on faith
> rather
> > > than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally don't see
> any

> > > correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is such a
> > thing

[Trudy Higginson]

hmmmm.....seems to me that fideism is very alive among some, me for one,
however, I seem to be leaning now towards "what do I know', which I would
call faith.

make sense?

( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q80gk$eqaso$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Seems I go there pretty often too.
>
> --
> Karyn
> fish <fi...@ohwhynot.com> wrote in message
> news:8q5tqq$e5v2n$1...@ID-21204.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Yesterday the message was "I believe.Help me in my unbelief".
> >
> > fish
> >

[Trudy Higginson]

well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.

( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Karyn_Carlo]

Makes perfect sense to me, Trudy. :)

--
Karyn
Trudy Higginson <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
news:8q8l8b$esolq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...

> hmmmm.....seems to me that fideism is very alive among some, me for one,
> however, I seem to be leaning now towards "what do I know', which I would
> call faith.
>
> make sense?
>

> ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
>

[Marylyn]

Yes. As long as by "knowing" you mean knowing God, as in a relationship : )

"Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...

> well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
>

> ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

[Dennis]

Karyn

----this is a powerful statement----

--
Dennis

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8eub$etdvl$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

>
> correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship with the Christ
who
> saved my life
> --
> Karyn

> Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
How
> > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
> >

> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka fideism, is it
> > wrong
> > > to ask questions?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn

> > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Sure. ..

> > > >
> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Karyn

> > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8q635i$enb9a$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > And some just ask the wrong questions. .. Ape;)
> > > > > >

[Naked Ape]

Yes, you experience is certainly subjective, but how does that make it
reasonable? Ape

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> I can only speak of my own life Ape... my faith is based upon a
> relationship, one that has been the same for about 27 years now and that
has
> been proven in many ways. Just as I know my mother, or my husband, can be
> expected to do or not do certain things, so has God been reliable in my
> life. That's where my faith was born and it's where it's constantly
> confirmed, reasonably.
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8ets$eht0p$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > How is faith ever reasonable? Ape
> >

> > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > There is such a thing as reasonable faith.
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Peefis,
> > > > Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on faith
> > rather
> > > > than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally don't
see
> > any

> > > > correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is such
a
> > > thing

[Naked Ape]

What do you know, Trudy? Ape;)

"Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
>
> ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

[Naked Ape]

Your faith is *proven* by your subjective experience. I'd say that you saved
yourself by having faith, but all of it happened within your own being.
Prove me wrong. .. Ape;)

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8eub$etdvl$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
>
> correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship with the Christ
who
> saved my life
> --
> Karyn

> Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
How
> > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
> >
> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka fideism, is it
> > wrong
> > > to ask questions?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn

> > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Sure. ..
> > > >
> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Karyn

> > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Naked Ape]

Yes, it's powerful, for she was saved, but by who? This is something that
could have been experienced by someone believing in and practicing any
religion, be it Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, a 10 Stepper,
whatever, but all of them have one common denominator, and that's the
individual. We save ourselves by what *we* believe. The HIGHER POWER is
always the person having the subjective experience. .. Ape

"Dennis" <denn...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:8q8pgi$et10g$1...@ID-10190.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Karyn
>
> ----this is a powerful statement----
>
> --
> Dennis

[John McEnery]

In this area it is not necessary to prove anything to anyone...
faith is an individual affair...always...one either chooses to
believe or or one does not.
Karyn knows what she knows....it is her experience....all she can
do is tell about it...if you choose to not believe...tht is your
business, not hers.
John
“He’s a blockhead who wants proof of what he cannot perceive;
And he’s a fool who tries to make such a blockhead believe”
(William Blake :To Flaxman)
***********************************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8svm$eiujr$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Your faith is *proven* by your subjective experience. I'd say
that you saved
> yourself by having faith, but all of it happened within your own
being.

> Prove me wrong. .. Ape;)

[Marylyn]

You should sit in my head for a day, Ape. The wheels in there are always
turning, with logical thought most of the time. My faith has been resonably
proven to me, over time. I can tell you about that, but finding proof for
yourself is up to you.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8sd2$epiei$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Yes, you experience is certainly subjective, but how does that make it

> reasonable? Ape
>
> "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

[Trudy Higginson]

me too....once I could get past what I don't know and look at what I do
know.

( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8lsd$ekafb$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Makes perfect sense to me, Trudy. :)
>
> --
> Karyn

> Trudy Higginson <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

> news:8q8l8b$esolq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > hmmmm.....seems to me that fideism is very alive among some, me for one,
> > however, I seem to be leaning now towards "what do I know', which I
would
> > call faith.
> >
> > make sense?
> >

> > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> >

> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q80gk$eqaso$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Seems I go there pretty often too.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn
> > > fish <fi...@ohwhynot.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8q5tqq$e5v2n$1...@ID-21204.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Yesterday the message was "I believe.Help me in my unbelief".
> > > >
> > > > fish
> > > >

[Trudy Higginson]

yes knowing God.....also knowing in order to believe.....for me .... knowing
I am a child of God, knowing I breath the air on this earth, knowing I am
not the be all and end all.

( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8q8mai$ernja$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Yes. As long as by "knowing" you mean knowing God, as in a relationship
: )
>

> "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

> news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> >

> > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

[Trudy Higginson]

read my latest response....my knows are quite simple and short.

p.s I ordered the Gnostic Gospels as I wanted to underline and highlight
every page....so wait for my own.

( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8so4$ev9e0$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> What do you know, Trudy? Ape;)

>
> "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> >
> > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> > news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > I can only speak of my own life Ape... my faith is based upon a
> > > relationship, one that has been the same for about 27 years now and
that
> > has
> > > been proven in many ways. Just as I know my mother, or my husband,
can
> be
> > > expected to do or not do certain things, so has God been reliable in
my
> > > life. That's where my faith was born and it's where it's constantly
> > > confirmed, reasonably.
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q8ets$eht0p$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > How is faith ever reasonable? Ape
> > > >

> > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > There is such a thing as reasonable faith.
> > > > >

> > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > Peefis,
> > > > > > Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on
> faith
> > > > rather
> > > > > > than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally
don't
> > see
> > > > any
> > > > > > correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is

> such
> > a
> > > > > thing

[Marylyn]

Yes. God has been the doorway into self-discovery, for me. Since God knows
me so well (and all others too, before someone misinterprets this to say
that I think I'm somehow special), he can show me what I need to see and at
the right time. It starts with him though, in my life.

"Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

news:8q91qd$erbm6$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

I can guarantee that as you read Gnostic Gospels, your *knows* will shift.
..
Ape;)

"Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

news:8q91ue$enkek$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...

> read my latest response....my knows are quite simple and short.
>
> p.s I ordered the Gnostic Gospels as I wanted to underline and highlight
> every page....so wait for my own.
>
> ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
>
>
> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8q8so4$ev9e0$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > What do you know, Trudy? Ape;)
> >

> > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

[Naked Ape]

Exactly. .. Ape;)

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:8q8u9k$f2kn0$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

> In this area it is not necessary to prove anything to anyone...
> faith is an individual affair...always...one either chooses to
> believe or or one does not.
> Karyn knows what she knows....it is her experience....all she can
> do is tell about it...if you choose to not believe...tht is your
> business, not hers.
> John
> "He's a blockhead who wants proof of what he cannot perceive;
> And he's a fool who tries to make such a blockhead believe"
> (William Blake :To Flaxman)
> ***********************************************

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8svm$eiujr$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Your faith is *proven* by your subjective experience. I'd say
> that you saved
> > yourself by having faith, but all of it happened within your own
> being.
> > Prove me wrong. .. Ape;)
> >

> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q8eub$etdvl$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > >
> > > correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship with
> the Christ
> > who
> > > saved my life
> > > --
> > > Karyn

> > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is
> no proof.
> > How
> > > > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
> > > >

> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka
> fideism, is it
> > > > wrong
> > > > > to ask questions?
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Karyn

> > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > Sure. ..

> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> message

> > > > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8q635i$enb9a$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > And some just ask the wrong questions. .. Ape;)
> > > > > > > >

[Naked Ape]

I'm apparently a harder sell. .. Ape;)

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8q90u5$enmsh$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> You should sit in my head for a day, Ape. The wheels in there are always
> turning, with logical thought most of the time. My faith has been
resonably
> proven to me, over time. I can tell you about that, but finding proof for
> yourself is up to you.
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8sd2$epiei$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Yes, you experience is certainly subjective, but how does that make it

> > reasonable? Ape
> >
> > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

[Marylyn]

Could be : )

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q93n0$ep60i$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[John McEnery]

"I also agree that reason and faith are in opposition to each
other"
Think about this...there is no reason to use the term..."in
opposition to"..it is an assumption...and must be taken on faith
(g)
It is just as likely that as systems of questioning or
apprehension of information ,they are complementary.
If one sees information as being on a continuum from the most
obvious data and measurable facts on one end and the most
speculative and immeasurable on the other...then the two systems
are not in opposition but are applications of the desire for
information to the type of information desired..
John
**************************************************

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C88393...@yahoo.com...
Ape: I have to agree with you there. faith and fideism is the end
of questing. But it needn't be a permanent end, just a
postponement. I also agree that reason and faith are in
opposition to each other, but I agree that arriving at a place of
fidelity can be a rational choice. My choice of fidelity to my
wife may seem irrational to some, but I arrived there through
reason. But I also think many people are faithful for reasons
other than reason.

Marylyn wrote:
There is such a thing as reasonable faith.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Peefis,
> Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on
faith rather
> than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally
don't see any
> correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is

such a
thing

[John McEnery]

The phio.cience ng has had an extended discussion on randomness which might be helpful.

The terms "coincidence"," Karma", "chaos" and "randomness" can apply to data Information)...not which is formless but to which no apparent form can, at this time, be found.

To the newborn infant..with a minimum of concepts...the universe is a mass of chaotic impression brought to him by his senses, almost completely random...as he gains information he begins to notice connections and similarities and thus starts to make some order out of the mass of apparently unconnected data.

John

*********************************************************************

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:39C8840C...@yahoo.com...

If it weren't for coincidence, karma, chaos, and randomness,  I might feel the same way.  I must admit,  my faith is completely unreasonable,  even to me.

Marylyn wrote:

I can only speak of my own life Ape... my faith is based upon a
relationship, one that has been the same for about 27 years now and that has
been proven in many ways.  Just as I know my mother, or my husband, can be
expected to do or not do certain things, so has God been reliable in my
life.  That's where my faith was born and it's where it's constantly
confirmed, reasonably.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:8q8ets$eht0p$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> How is faith ever reasonable?  Ape

>
> "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Trudy Higginson]

I anticipate that......and I am no longer afraid to know more.

( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q93h8$eucr6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> I can guarantee that as you read Gnostic Gospels, your *knows* will shift.
> ..
> Ape;)
>
> "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> news:8q91ue$enkek$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > read my latest response....my knows are quite simple and short.
> >
> > p.s I ordered the Gnostic Gospels as I wanted to underline and
highlight
> > every page....so wait for my own.
> >
> > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> >
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q8so4$ev9e0$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > What do you know, Trudy? Ape;)
> > >
> > > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> > > >
> > > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

> > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

[nywgem]

Wonderful, Trudy :)))

Megwyn

"Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

news:8qaa72$e8et0$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Karyn_Carlo]

It is a powerful reality, Dennis, one that knocks me on my knees in awe.

--
Karyn

Dennis <denn...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:8q8pgi$et10g$1...@ID-10190.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Karyn
>
> ----this is a powerful statement----
>
> --
> Dennis

> "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8q8eub$etdvl$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> >
> > correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship with the Christ
> who
> > saved my life
> > --
> > Karyn

> > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
> How
> > > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
> > >
> > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka fideism, is
it
> > > wrong
> > > > to ask questions?
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Karyn

> > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Sure. ..
> > > > >
> > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Karyn_Carlo]

I didn't save myself, Ape. You can't "prove" that I did and I wonder why you
would want to. Afraid you might find out that God is real? <g>

--
Karyn
Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q8svm$eiujr$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Your faith is *proven* by your subjective experience. I'd say that you
saved
> yourself by having faith, but all of it happened within your own being.

> Prove me wrong. .. Ape;)

[Karyn_Carlo]

It's a life long process. Trud.

--
Karyn

Trudy Higginson <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

news:8q91j2$etmuu$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...

> me too....once I could get past what I don't know and look at what I do
> know.
>

> ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
>
>

> "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8lsd$ekafb$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Makes perfect sense to me, Trudy. :)
> >
> > --
> > Karyn

> > Trudy Higginson <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

> > news:8q8l8b$esolq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > hmmmm.....seems to me that fideism is very alive among some, me for
one,
> > > however, I seem to be leaning now towards "what do I know', which I
> would
> > > call faith.
> > >
> > > make sense?
> > >

> > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> > >

> > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q80gk$eqaso$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Seems I go there pretty often too.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Karyn
> > > > fish <fi...@ohwhynot.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8q5tqq$e5v2n$1...@ID-21204.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Yesterday the message was "I believe.Help me in my unbelief".
> > > > >
> > > > > fish
> > > > >

[Naked Ape]

I don't really see having a religious faith and being faithful to one's
spouse as being similar, even though they both share a root word. .. Ape;)

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C88393...@yahoo.com...
> Ape: I have to agree with you there. faith and fideism is the end of
questing. But it needn't be a permanent end, just a postponement. I also
agree that reason and faith are in opposition to each other, but I agree
that arriving at a place of fidelity can be a rational choice. My choice of
fidelity to my wife may seem irrational to some, but I arrived there
through reason. But I also think many people are faithful for reasons other
than reason.
> Marylyn wrote:
>

> There is such a thing as reasonable faith.

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Peefis,
> > Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on faith
rather
> > than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally don't see
any

> > correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is such a
> thing

[Naked Ape]

Peefis,
When one begins to see God as something separate from themselves, beyond who
they already are, the illusion and angst of a "one-sided" relationship
always follows. ..
Ape
--
Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child
seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.
(Gospel of Thomas, saying 4)

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C8844E...@yahoo.com...
> I'm curious to know how that relationship exists in real time. My
relationship with God seems awfully one-sided.

> Marylyn wrote:
>
> Yes. As long as by "knowing" you mean knowing God, as in a relationship
: )

> "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

> news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> >

> > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

[Naked Ape]

It will be a never ending roller coaster ride. Just hang on and have a
blast. ..
Ape;)))

"Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

news:8qaa72$e8et0$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> I anticipate that......and I am no longer afraid to know more.
>

> ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
>
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q93h8$eucr6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > I can guarantee that as you read Gnostic Gospels, your *knows* will
shift.
> > ..

> > Ape;)

> >
> > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

> > news:8q91ue$enkek$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > read my latest response....my knows are quite simple and short.
> > >
> > > p.s I ordered the Gnostic Gospels as I wanted to underline and
> highlight
> > > every page....so wait for my own.
> > >

> > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> > >
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q8so4$ev9e0$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > What do you know, Trudy? Ape;)

> > > >
> > > > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> > > > >
> > > > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > I can only speak of my own life Ape... my faith is based upon a
> > > > > > relationship, one that has been the same for about 27 years now
> and
> > > that
> > > > > has
> > > > > > been proven in many ways. Just as I know my mother, or my
> husband,
> > > can
> > > > be
> > > > > > expected to do or not do certain things, so has God been
reliable
> in
> > > my
> > > > > > life. That's where my faith was born and it's where it's
> constantly
> > > > > > confirmed, reasonably.
> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > news:8q8ets$eht0p$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > How is faith ever reasonable? Ape
> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

And that powerful feeling always wells up from [within], doesn't it. ..
Ape;)

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qak7f$f3ktr$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> It is a powerful reality, Dennis, one that knocks me on my knees in awe.
>
> --
> Karyn
> Dennis <denn...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:8q8pgi$et10g$1...@ID-10190.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Karyn
> >
> > ----this is a powerful statement----
> >
> > --
> > Dennis

> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q8eub$etdvl$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > >
> > > correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship with the
Christ
> > who
> > > saved my life
> > > --
> > > Karyn

> > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no
proof.
> > How
> > > > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
> > > >

> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka fideism,
is
> it
> > > > wrong
> > > > > to ask questions?
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Karyn

> > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > Sure. ..

> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8q635i$enb9a$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > And some just ask the wrong questions. .. Ape;)
> > > > > > > >

[Naked Ape]

Yes, Karyn, God is real *as* each of us. ..
Ape, who can prove that we exist, here and now. ..

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qakai$f2q7d$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> I didn't save myself, Ape. You can't "prove" that I did and I wonder why
you
> would want to. Afraid you might find out that God is real? <g>
>

> --
> Karyn
> Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q8svm$eiujr$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Your faith is *proven* by your subjective experience. I'd say that you
> saved
> > yourself by having faith, but all of it happened within your own being.

> > Prove me wrong. .. Ape;)

> >
> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Karyn_Carlo]

Not entirely, Ape. No matter how many times you repeat yourself, you are
still not defining my experience.

--
Karyn
Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qaurm$f0qlt$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> And that powerful feeling always wells up from [within], doesn't it. ..

> Ape;)
>
> "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qak7f$f3ktr$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > It is a powerful reality, Dennis, one that knocks me on my knees in awe.
> >
> > --
> > Karyn
> > Dennis <denn...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:8q8pgi$et10g$1...@ID-10190.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Karyn
> > >
> > > ----this is a powerful statement----
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dennis

[John McEnery]

There is no reason to believe that faith and reason are in
opposition to one another...
Reason always uses faith as it's first step.
Faith, if it is sound...uses reason as it's first step.
I'd suggest Aquinas "Summa Theologica"..to see both working in
tandem...never in opposition.
Or if you want something difficult, Kant's The Critique of Pure
Reason

http://www.knuten.liu.se/~bjoch509/works/kant/cr_pure_reason.txt

John
************************************************

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C9009B...@yahoo.com...
Huh?

John McEnery wrote:
"I also agree that reason and faith are in opposition to each

other"
Think about this...there is no reason to use the term..."in
opposition to"..it is an assumption...and must be taken on faith
(g)
It is just as likely that as systems of questioning or
apprehension of information ,they are complementary.
If one sees information as being on a continuum from the most
obvious data and measurable facts on one end and the most
speculative and immeasurable on the other...then the two systems
are not in opposition but are applications of the desire for
information to the type of information desired..
John
**************************************************

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C88393...@yahoo.com...
Ape: I have to agree with you there. faith and fideism is the end
of questing. But it needn't be a permanent end, just a
postponement. I also agree that reason and faith are in
opposition to each other, but I agree that arriving at a place of
fidelity can be a rational choice. My choice of fidelity to my
wife may seem irrational to some, but I arrived there through
reason. But I also think many people are faithful for reasons
other than reason.
Marylyn wrote:

There is such a thing as reasonable faith.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Peefis,
> Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on
faith rather
> than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally
don't see any
> correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is

such a
thing

[John McEnery]

I dont care if you wish to believe it...tho I consider it wrong...
and since it is you who made the original assertion it is up to
you to provide the rationale for it...my rationale for disagreeing
is in , among other places, including most texts on logic, the two
places I cited.
John
******************************************

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C90574...@yahoo.com...
actually, i'll probably hang onto my belief that reason and faith
are opposites for now. i don't have time for a philosophical or
theological study of faith and reason. but anything else you want
to share on the issue, feel free. also feel free to provide an
argument to back up your assertion that faith and reason are not
in opposition to each other. so far you have said it, but not
said how you came to that conclusion.

[Marylyn]

Exactly.

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qavsb$f7332$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Marylyn]

Then your faith is different from mine : )

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:39C8840C...@yahoo.com...

If it weren't for coincidence, karma, chaos, and randomness,  I might feel the same way.  I must admit,  my faith is completely unreasonable,  even to me.

[Naked Ape]

Children don't care about such things for they aren't into concepts,
besides, they are just too busy being God playing in the Garden of Paradise
to wonder about what God is. .. Ape

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C8FF70...@yahoo.com...
> Have you ever asked a child about the nature of God?

> Naked Ape wrote:
>
> Peefis,
> When one begins to see God as something separate from themselves, beyond
who
> they already are, the illusion and angst of a "one-sided" relationship
> always follows. ..
> Ape
> --
> Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child
> seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live.
> (Gospel of Thomas, saying 4)

> "peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:39C8844E...@yahoo.com...
> > I'm curious to know how that relationship exists in real time. My
> relationship with God seems awfully one-sided.
> > Marylyn wrote:
> >
> > Yes. As long as by "knowing" you mean knowing God, as in a
relationship

> : )

> > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> > >
> > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Then how, exactly? Ape

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qav5r$eud93$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Not entirely, Ape. No matter how many times you repeat yourself, you are
> still not defining my experience.
>
> --
> Karyn

> Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qaurm$f0qlt$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > And that powerful feeling always wells up from [within], doesn't it. ..
> > Ape;)
> >
> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:8qak7f$f3ktr$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > It is a powerful reality, Dennis, one that knocks me on my knees in
awe.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn
> > > Dennis <denn...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > > news:8q8pgi$et10g$1...@ID-10190.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Karyn
> > > >
> > > > ----this is a powerful statement----
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dennis
> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8q8eub$etdvl$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > >
> > > > > correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship with the
> > Christ
> > > > who
> > > > > saved my life
> > > > > --
> > > > > Karyn

> > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is no
> > proof.
> > > > How
> > > > > > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka
fideism,
> > is
> > > it
> > > > > > wrong
> > > > > > > to ask questions?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > Sure. ..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > > > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Karyn_Carlo]

How does the feeling of awe manifest itself to me? from both within AND
without. It's a relationship thing, not just a me thing.

--
Karyn
Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb59m$ena96$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Marylyn]

I talk to him, he talks to me.  Sometimes we just hang out and enjoy each other.  I don't know how else to describe the relationship, but it's definately a two-sided thing.

[Naked Ape]

You can point to your sources as proof, but I'd point to the dictionary on
this one to back up my assertion that faith and reason are mutually
exclusive. It's a much shorter read. .. Ape;)

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb2c3$ev3k3$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

> I dont care if you wish to believe it...tho I consider it wrong...
> and since it is you who made the original assertion it is up to
> you to provide the rationale for it...my rationale for disagreeing
> is in , among other places, including most texts on logic, the two
> places I cited.
> John
> ******************************************
>
>
>

> "peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:39C90574...@yahoo.com...
> actually, i'll probably hang onto my belief that reason and faith
> are opposites for now. i don't have time for a philosophical or
> theological study of faith and reason. but anything else you want
> to share on the issue, feel free. also feel free to provide an
> argument to back up your assertion that faith and reason are not
> in opposition to each other. so far you have said it, but not
> said how you came to that conclusion.
> John McEnery wrote:

> There is no reason to believe that faith and reason are in
> opposition to one another...
> Reason always uses faith as it's first step.
> Faith, if it is sound...uses reason as it's first step.
> I'd suggest Aquinas "Summa Theologica"..to see both working in
> tandem...never in opposition.
> Or if you want something difficult, Kant's The Critique of Pure
> Reason
> http://www.knuten.liu.se/~bjoch509/works/kant/cr_pure_reason.txt
> John
> ************************************************

> "peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:39C9009B...@yahoo.com...
> Huh?
> John McEnery wrote:
> "I also agree that reason and faith are in opposition to each
> other"
> Think about this...there is no reason to use the term..."in
> opposition to"..it is an assumption...and must be taken on faith
> (g)
> It is just as likely that as systems of questioning or
> apprehension of information ,they are complementary.
> If one sees information as being on a continuum from the most
> obvious data and measurable facts on one end and the most
> speculative and immeasurable on the other...then the two systems
> are not in opposition but are applications of the desire for
> information to the type of information desired..
> John
> **************************************************

> "peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> news:39C88393...@yahoo.com...
> Ape: I have to agree with you there. faith and fideism is the end
> of questing. But it needn't be a permanent end, just a
> postponement. I also agree that reason and faith are in
> opposition to each other, but I agree that arriving at a place of
> fidelity can be a rational choice. My choice of fidelity to my
> wife may seem irrational to some, but I arrived there through
> reason. But I also think many people are faithful for reasons
> other than reason.
> Marylyn wrote:
> There is such a thing as reasonable faith.

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8q87k1$eqn04$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Peefis,
> > Good post. According to my dictionary, fideism is reliance on
> faith rather
> > than reason in pursuit of religious truth. Now I personally
> don't see any
> > correlation between faith and reason, nor do I believe there is

> such a
> thing

[Marylyn]

Really Ape? And how do you know this?

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qaudm$esgsf$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Could you give me an example? Ape;)

"peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:39C902A1...@yahoo.com...
> That's because you don't want to focus on the similarities. I'm sure you
could come up with some if you opened your mind a little. But see, you
have already established your fideistic (is that a word?) patterns and to
take up an argument of the similarities between religious faith and faith in
marriage would fly against that fideism. However, I'm not saying that's
not okay.

> Naked Ape wrote:
>
> I don't really see having a religious faith and being faithful to one's
> spouse as being similar, even though they both share a root word. ..
Ape;)

> "peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:39C88393...@yahoo.com...
> > Ape: I have to agree with you there. faith and fideism is the end of
> questing. But it needn't be a permanent end, just a postponement. I
also
> agree that reason and faith are in opposition to each other, but I
agree
> that arriving at a place of fidelity can be a rational choice. My
choice of
> fidelity to my wife may seem irrational to some, but I arrived there
> through reason. But I also think many people are faithful for reasons
other
> than reason.
> > Marylyn wrote:
> >
> > There is such a thing as reasonable faith.

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[John McEnery]

As I consider all truth to be one, I consider the means of
arriving at it to be one...
I do not use a galvanometer to reveal the Presence of Jesus in my
life, nor do I use Revelation to tell me the electric potential in
a wire. but I use them both as complementary ways of learning
about the cosmos.
If I wish to read, I need the sunlight or the light from a
lamp...if I wish to know what that light is composed of I use a
prism to break it into its parts...I cannot read by the light
coming out of a prism.
The prism tells me that the white light I see is composed of a
variety of colors from Red to Violet and beyond.... truly an
absurd idea without proof...and yet I know that beyond red there
is heat in the light and beyond violet there are other energies
which I cannot see....but which can effect me....
I know much of this on faith...simply because someone found out
that a prism will break up visible light into its parts and
said...there has to be more to light than this....there has to be
( a faith statement)

Faith and evidence...working together to inform me.
John
************************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb5kj$fdq8h$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> You can point to your sources as proof, but I'd point to the
dictionary on
> this one to back up my assertion that faith and reason are
mutually
> exclusive. It's a much shorter read. .. Ape;)
>
> "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8qb2c3$ev3k3$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > I dont care if you wish to believe it...tho I consider it
wrong...
> > and since it is you who made the original assertion it is up
to
> > you to provide the rationale for it...my rationale for
disagreeing
> > is in , among other places, including most texts on logic, the
two
> > places I cited.
> > John
> > ******************************************
> >
> >
> >

> > "peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> > news:39C90574...@yahoo.com...
> > actually, i'll probably hang onto my belief that reason and
faith

> > "peefis" <pee...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> > news:39C9009B...@yahoo.com...
> > Huh?
> > John McEnery wrote:

> > "I also agree that reason and faith are in opposition to each

> > other"
> > Think about this...there is no reason to use the term..."in
> > opposition to"..it is an assumption...and must be taken on
faith
> > (g)
> > It is just as likely that as systems of questioning or
> > apprehension of information ,they are complementary.
> > If one sees information as being on a continuum from the most
> > obvious data and measurable facts on one end and the most
> > speculative and immeasurable on the other...then the two
systems
> > are not in opposition but are applications of the desire for
> > information to the type of information desired..
> > John
> > **************************************************

[Naked Ape]

I'll accept that's what you [within] think. .. Ape;)

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb5ga$f6663$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> How does the feeling of awe manifest itself to me? from both within AND
> without. It's a relationship thing, not just a me thing.
>
> --
> Karyn

> Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qb59m$ena96$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Then how, exactly? Ape
> >
> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:8qav5r$eud93$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Not entirely, Ape. No matter how many times you repeat yourself, you
are
> > > still not defining my experience.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn

> > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there is
no
> > > > proof.
> > > > > > How
> > > > > > > > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith aka
> > fideism,
> > > > is
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > > wrong
> > > > > > > > > to ask questions?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > Sure. ..
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > > > > > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Karyn_Carlo]

Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying to redefine it in your
terms so that it "fits" your dogma.

--
Karyn
Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb73g$eu0aj$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Faith that the sun will come up in the morning would be a bit different than
faith that there is a God as you conceive him, wouldn't you think? One is an
observable fact while the other is an assumption that has no proof. ..
Ape;)

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb68t$esjmv$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

God talks to me. .. Ape;)))

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8qb5m6$f5joo$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Really Ape? And how do you know this?
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Karyn_Carlo]

What if one is living a life where God has been as faithful about being God
as the sun has been in coming up in the morning?

--
Karyn

Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[John McEnery]

No...faith that the sun shall come up in the morning is an
extrapolation from past events as is faith in the activities of a
God who is with us and loves us.

One has no...repeat...no proof that the sun shall come up
tomorrow....or that one is actually sitting in front of a monitor
typing on a keyboard....

These are assumptions and are not ultimately provable without
recourse to faith.

Self-evidency requires faith in ones sensory organs...which may be
transmitting false data.

Elementary Pragmatism 101
John..who taught this stuff with verve and passion to aspiring
agnostics for several years while still an unbeliever.
******************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Yes, that would be a what if. .. Ape;)

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb7ld$f2mjf$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

I could show you the sun, John, but you can't show me your God. ..
Ape;)

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb82l$f58qn$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

I'll accept your experience as something which you yourself believe, but no,
I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a self-contained event. ..
Ape;)

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying to redefine it in
your
> terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> --
> Karyn

> Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qb73g$eu0aj$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > I'll accept that's what you [within] think. .. Ape;)

> >
> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qb5ga$f6663$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > How does the feeling of awe manifest itself to me? from both within
AND
> > > without. It's a relationship thing, not just a me thing.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Karyn

> > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qb59m$ena96$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Then how, exactly? Ape
> > > >

> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8qav5r$eud93$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Not entirely, Ape. No matter how many times you repeat yourself,
you
> > are
> > > > > still not defining my experience.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Karyn

> > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8qaurm$f0qlt$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > And that powerful feeling always wells up from [within], doesn't
> it.

> > > ..
> > > > > > Ape;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > news:8qak7f$f3ktr$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > It is a powerful reality, Dennis, one that knocks me on my
knees
> > in
> > > > awe.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Karyn
> > > > > > > Dennis <denn...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:8q8pgi$et10g$1...@ID-10190.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > Karyn
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----this is a powerful statement----
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Dennis

> > > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > news:8q8eub$etdvl$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > correction, my faith is built on an ongoing relationship
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > Christ
> > > > > > > > who
> > > > > > > > > saved my life
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > > news:8q8eqh$ehrmu$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > Your faith is a firm belief in something for which there
> is
> > no
> > > > > > proof.
> > > > > > > > How

> > > > > > > > > > would it differ from fideism? Ape;)

> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

> > > > > > > > > > news:8q8760$er36l$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > > Such as? Since when, unless one is into blind faith
aka
> > > > fideism,
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > wrong
> > > > > > > > > > > to ask questions?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > > > > news:8q86tl$emd6c$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sure. ..

> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > message

> > > > > > > > > > > > news:8q810c$erq1a$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there really such a thing as a wrong question?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Karyn

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> message

> > > > > > > > > > > > > news:8q635i$enb9a$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And some just ask the wrong questions. .. Ape;)

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote
in
> > > > message

[Karyn_Carlo]

Like I said, you filter everything I tell you through the perceptual lens of
your own dogma and end up not hearing me at all. That's what I call
closed-minded, not being able to accept another person's reality unless it
can be made to fit in to your own belief system.

--
Karyn
Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[John McEnery]

Not tomorrow's sun
and today's sun is evidence of His mercy
John
***********************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb8tp$eriht$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

No sense talking about this rationally. Your faith gave you your answers. ..
Ape

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbao9$fbrvq$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Well, Karyn, not everyone can be as open minded as you. .. Ape;)))

"Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb9g8$f4tgs$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...

[John McEnery]

What you call rationality has no resemblance to the term as it is
used in the academic community.

John

**************************
"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbc3b$f39ga$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Marylyn]

I can point to my life Ape, as proof that faith and reason are not only
compatible but close companions. They are not the same, but they are
pleasant bedfellows.

[Marylyn]

Great post, John : )

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb68t$esjmv$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Marylyn]

God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else that IS.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Marylyn]

Not really.. millions have experienced the very same reality, both now and
in ages past.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> I'll accept your experience as something which you yourself believe, but
no,
> I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a self-contained event. ..
> Ape;)
>
> "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying to redefine it in
your
> > terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> > --

[Naked Ape]

Then why is it that you can see your version of God and I can't? Is it your
faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the same, we'd all see God,
but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else that IS.
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

Yes, the very same reality. I'd give you no argument on that. .. Ape;)

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8qbk6v$f6odn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Not really.. millions have experienced the very same reality, both now and
> in ages past.
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > I'll accept your experience as something which you yourself believe, but
> no,
> > I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a self-contained event.
..
> > Ape;)
> >
> > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying to redefine it
in
> your
> > > terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> > > --

[John McEnery]

Right...if you dont want to see..if you clamp your eyes shut...you
cant see....
and once again you misquote and ascribe the misquote to
another...no one has said or even suggested that faith and reason
are the same (another cute trick that is getting obvious from
overuse.)
John
"For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I
believe so that I may understand” (St. Anselm: Prologian)
*******************************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Then why is it that you can see your version of God and I can't?
Is it your
> faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the same, we'd
all see God,

> but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)

>
> "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else that IS.
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Naked Ape]

I tried for a long time to *see* your God, John, but even when I was a true
and faithful believer, all I've ever been able to see is that which is right
in front of my eyes. ..
Ape, who believes in God but spells it Nature. ..

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbl4c$f9auh$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Right...if you dont want to see..if you clamp your eyes shut...you
> cant see....
> and once again you misquote and ascribe the misquote to
> another...no one has said or even suggested that faith and reason
> are the same (another cute trick that is getting obvious from
> overuse.)
> John
> "For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I
> believe so that I may understand" (St. Anselm: Prologian)
> *******************************************
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Then why is it that you can see your version of God and I can't?
> Is it your
> > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the same, we'd
> all see God,
> > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)
> >
> > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else that IS.
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[John McEnery]

It took me almost 50 years to see him...and I still only have a
dim outline.
You gave up too soon.
John
*************************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qblos$ceqt6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> I tried for a long time to *see* your God, John, but even when I
was a true
> and faithful believer, all I've ever been able to see is that
which is right
> in front of my eyes. ..
> Ape, who believes in God but spells it Nature. ..
>

> "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbl4c$f9auh$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Right...if you dont want to see..if you clamp your eyes
shut...you
> > cant see....
> > and once again you misquote and ascribe the misquote to

> > another...no one has said or even suggested that faith and
reason

> > are the same (another cute trick that is getting obvious from
> > overuse.)
> > John
> > "For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I
> > believe so that I may understand" (St. Anselm: Prologian)
> > *******************************************
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Then why is it that you can see your version of God and I
can't?
> > Is it your
> > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the same,
we'd
> > all see God,
> > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)
> > >
> > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else that
IS.
> > > >

> > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Marylyn]

Beats me. I don't have the answers about why we see things differently,
just know what I see is all and don't feel compelled to judge your
experience as either good or bad... that's about all I can be responsible
for : )

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Naked Ape]

No, I think I tried too long. .. Ape;)))

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbm0q$f243k$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

> It took me almost 50 years to see him...and I still only have a
> dim outline.
> You gave up too soon.
> John
> *************************************

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qblos$ceqt6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > I tried for a long time to *see* your God, John, but even when I
> was a true
> > and faithful believer, all I've ever been able to see is that
> which is right
> > in front of my eyes. ..
> > Ape, who believes in God but spells it Nature. ..
> >

> > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbl4c$f9auh$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Right...if you dont want to see..if you clamp your eyes
> shut...you
> > > cant see....
> > > and once again you misquote and ascribe the misquote to

> > > another...no one has said or even suggested that faith and
> reason

> > > are the same (another cute trick that is getting obvious from
> > > overuse.)
> > > John
> > > "For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe; but I
> > > believe so that I may understand" (St. Anselm: Prologian)
> > > *******************************************
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Then why is it that you can see your version of God and I
> can't?
> > > Is it your
> > > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the same,
> we'd
> > > all see God,
> > > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)
> > > >
> > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else that
> IS.
> > > > >

> > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Marylyn]

Okay... millions have seen the reality of an awesome God... I like this
agreement <G>.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbkoh$f5rj3$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Yes, the very same reality. I'd give you no argument on that. .. Ape;)

>
> "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbk6v$f6odn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Not really.. millions have experienced the very same reality, both now
and
> > in ages past.
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > I'll accept your experience as something which you yourself believe,
but no,
> > > I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a self-contained event.
> ..

> > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying to redefine it
in your
> > > > terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> > > > --

[John McEnery]

He's still waiting...He does love you, you know.
John

******************************
"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbms8$fbhqc$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> No, I think I tried too long. .. Ape;)))
>

> "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbm0q$f243k$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > It took me almost 50 years to see him...and I still only have
a
> > dim outline.
> > You gave up too soon.
> > John
> > *************************************

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qblos$ceqt6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > I tried for a long time to *see* your God, John, but even
when I
> > was a true
> > > and faithful believer, all I've ever been able to see is
that
> > which is right
> > > in front of my eyes. ..
> > > Ape, who believes in God but spells it Nature. ..
> > >

> > > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

> > > news:8qbl4c$f9auh$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Right...if you dont want to see..if you clamp your eyes
> > shut...you
> > > > cant see....
> > > > and once again you misquote and ascribe the misquote to

> > > > another...no one has said or even suggested that faith and
> > reason

> > > > are the same (another cute trick that is getting obvious
from
> > > > overuse.)
> > > > John
> > > > "For I do not seek to understand so that I may believe;
but I
> > > > believe so that I may understand" (St. Anselm: Prologian)
> > > > *******************************************
> > > >

> > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Then why is it that you can see your version of God and
I
> > can't?
> > > > Is it your
> > > > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the
same,
> > we'd
> > > > all see God,

> > > > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)

> > > > >
> > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else
that
> > IS.
> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

> > > > > > news:8qb7h4$eu5f1$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

[Trudy Higginson]

when I want off the ride for a few days, I close the books and live in my
head......kind of looking at the world through the things I know and the
things I am learning......pondering is a recent exercise and I like it cause
I don't have to make any decisions......just ponder.

( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qauki$evqv5$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> It will be a never ending roller coaster ride. Just hang on and have a
> blast. ..
> Ape;)))
>
> "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> news:8qaa72$e8et0$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > I anticipate that......and I am no longer afraid to know more.
> >
> > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

> >
> >
> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8q93h8$eucr6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > I can guarantee that as you read Gnostic Gospels, your *knows* will
> shift.
> > > ..
> > > Ape;)
> > >
> > > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:8q91ue$enkek$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > read my latest response....my knows are quite simple and short.
> > > >
> > > > p.s I ordered the Gnostic Gospels as I wanted to underline and
> > highlight
> > > > every page....so wait for my own.
> > > >
> > > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8q8so4$ev9e0$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > What do you know, Trudy? Ape;)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

> > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > I can only speak of my own life Ape... my faith is based upon
a
> > > > > > > relationship, one that has been the same for about 27 years
now
> > and
> > > > that
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > been proven in many ways. Just as I know my mother, or my
> > husband,
> > > > can
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > expected to do or not do certain things, so has God been
> reliable
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > > > life. That's where my faith was born and it's where it's
> > constantly
> > > > > > > confirmed, reasonably.

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8q8ets$eht0p$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > How is faith ever reasonable? Ape

> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > > > > > > There is such a thing as reasonable faith.
> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Naked Ape]

Marylyn,
Yes, we certainly do see spirituality differently. I'd thing it would be
safe to say we are at opposite poles as to how we see the Magic, as well as
how it actually works in our lives, but at the end of the day, are we really
so much different? I don't think so. ..
Ape;)

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8qbmou$f9ajn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Beats me. I don't have the answers about why we see things differently,
> just know what I see is all and don't feel compelled to judge your
> experience as either good or bad... that's about all I can be responsible
> for : )
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Then why is it that you can see your version of God and I can't? Is it
> your
> > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the same, we'd all see
> God,
> > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)
> >

> > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

[Naked Ape]

And this is where Einstein would step forward and say, "Everything is
relative."
Ape, with his own awesome God;)

"Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

news:8qbmtr$f26pl$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Okay... millions have seen the reality of an awesome God... I like this
> agreement <G>.
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbkoh$f5rj3$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Yes, the very same reality. I'd give you no argument on that. .. Ape;)

> >
> > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbk6v$f6odn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Not really.. millions have experienced the very same reality, both now
> and
> > > in ages past.
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > I'll accept your experience as something which you yourself believe,
> but no,
> > > > I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a self-contained
event.
> > ..

> > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying to redefine
it
> in your
> > > > > terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> > > > > --

[Naked Ape]

What is "he" waiting for? What do you think "he'' wants from me that I'm not
already either doing or receiving? Ape;)

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbn28$a47v4$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

> He's still waiting...He does love you, you know.
> John
> ******************************

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbms8$fbhqc$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > No, I think I tried too long. .. Ape;)))
> >
> > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> > news:8qbm0q$f243k$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > It took me almost 50 years to see him...and I still only have
> a
> > > dim outline.
> > > You gave up too soon.
> > > John
> > > *************************************

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > Then why is it that you can see your version of God and
> I
> > > can't?
> > > > > Is it your
> > > > > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the
> same,
> > > we'd
> > > > > all see God,

> > > > > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)

> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything else
> that
> > > IS.
> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> message

[John McEnery]

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is
blind”
(Albert Einstein: Out of My Later Years)

I just couldn't resist it
Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea magna Culpa.
(VBG)
John

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbo13$f47j8$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> And this is where Einstein would step forward and say,
"Everything is
> relative."

> Ape, with his own awesome God;)

>
> "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbmtr$f26pl$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Okay... millions have seen the reality of an awesome God... I
like this
> > agreement <G>.
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbkoh$f5rj3$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Yes, the very same reality. I'd give you no argument on

that. .. Ape;)

> > >
> > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qbk6v$f6odn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Not really.. millions have experienced the very same
reality, both now
> > and
> > > > in ages past.
> > > >

> > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> > > > > I'll accept your experience as something which you
yourself believe,
> > but no,
> > > > > I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a
self-contained
> event.
> > > ..

> > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying
to redefine
> it
> > in your
> > > > > > terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> > > > > > --

[John McEnery]

Free Will, m'boy....it's your choice...always your choice...
John
*****************************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qboc6$f2ge9$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> What is "he" waiting for? What do you think "he'' wants from me
that I'm not
> already either doing or receiving? Ape;)
>
> "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
> news:8qbn28$a47v4$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > He's still waiting...He does love you, you know.
> > John
> > ******************************

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbms8$fbhqc$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > No, I think I tried too long. .. Ape;)))
> > >
> > > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message
> > > news:8qbm0q$f243k$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > It took me almost 50 years to see him...and I still only
have
> > a
> > > > dim outline.
> > > > You gave up too soon.
> > > > John
> > > > *************************************

> > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

> > > > > > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > Then why is it that you can see your version of God
and
> > I
> > > > can't?
> > > > > > Is it your
> > > > > > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the
> > same,
> > > > we'd
> > > > > > all see God,

> > > > > > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)

> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything
else
> > that
> > > > IS.
> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > message

[Naked Ape]

It sounds as though Synchronicity is doing a fine job of pacing your quest.
..
Ape;)

"Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message

news:8qbnki$f7ehm$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...

> when I want off the ride for a few days, I close the books and live in my
> head......kind of looking at the world through the things I know and the
> things I am learning......pondering is a recent exercise and I like it
cause
> I don't have to make any decisions......just ponder.
>
> ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
>
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qauki$evqv5$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > It will be a never ending roller coaster ride. Just hang on and have a
> > blast. ..
> > Ape;)))
> >
> > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > news:8qaa72$e8et0$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > I anticipate that......and I am no longer afraid to know more.
> > >
> > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> > >
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8q93h8$eucr6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > I can guarantee that as you read Gnostic Gospels, your *knows* will
> > shift.
> > > > ..
> > > > Ape;)
> > > >
> > > > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > > > news:8q91ue$enkek$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > read my latest response....my knows are quite simple and short.
> > > > >
> > > > > p.s I ordered the Gnostic Gospels as I wanted to underline and
> > > highlight
> > > > > every page....so wait for my own.
> > > > >
> > > > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy
> > > > >
> > > > >

> > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8q8so4$ev9e0$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > What do you know, Trudy? Ape;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Trudy Higginson" <tru...@soonet.ca> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:8q8ldk$epmqq$1...@ID-42762.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > well said Marylyn.......knowing is the key.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ( ^ _ ^ ) Trudy

> > > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > news:8q8fuj$eo9o3$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > I can only speak of my own life Ape... my faith is based
upon
> a
> > > > > > > > relationship, one that has been the same for about 27 years
> now
> > > and
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > been proven in many ways. Just as I know my mother, or my
> > > husband,
> > > > > can
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > expected to do or not do certain things, so has God been
> > reliable
> > > in
> > > > > my
> > > > > > > > life. That's where my faith was born and it's where it's
> > > constantly
> > > > > > > > confirmed, reasonably.
> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > news:8q8ets$eht0p$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > How is faith ever reasonable? Ape
> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > > news:8q8a97$elg9f$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > There is such a thing as reasonable faith.
> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Naked Ape]

Just curious, John. Do you think I have a religion? Ape;)

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qboge$euc2u$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

> "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is
> blind"
> (Albert Einstein: Out of My Later Years)
>
> I just couldn't resist it
> Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea magna Culpa.
> (VBG)
> John
>

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbo13$f47j8$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > And this is where Einstein would step forward and say,
> "Everything is
> > relative."
> > Ape, with his own awesome God;)
> >

> > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbmtr$f26pl$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Okay... millions have seen the reality of an awesome God... I
> like this
> > > agreement <G>.
> > >

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qbkoh$f5rj3$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Yes, the very same reality. I'd give you no argument on
> that. .. Ape;)
> > > >

> > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8qbk6v$f6odn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Not really.. millions have experienced the very same
> reality, both now
> > > and
> > > > > in ages past.
> > > > >

> > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > I'll accept your experience as something which you
> yourself believe,
> > > but no,
> > > > > > I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a
> self-contained
> > event.
> > > > ..
> > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> message
> > > > > > news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > Meaning you won't accept my experience without trying
> to redefine
> > it
> > > in your
> > > > > > > terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

[Naked Ape]

But John, I already have free will. What more do you think your God wants to
give me? Ape;)

"John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qboil$fa7b5$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Free Will, m'boy....it's your choice...always your choice...
> John
> *****************************************

> "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qboc6$f2ge9$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > What is "he" waiting for? What do you think "he'' wants from me
> that I'm not

> > already either doing or receiving? Ape;)

> >
> > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbn28$a47v4$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > He's still waiting...He does love you, you know.
> > > John
> > > ******************************

> > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qbms8$fbhqc$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > No, I think I tried too long. .. Ape;)))
> > > >

> > > > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> message

> > > > news:8qbm0q$f243k$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > It took me almost 50 years to see him...and I still only
> have
> > > a
> > > > > dim outline.
> > > > > You gave up too soon.
> > > > > John
> > > > > *************************************

> > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8qblos$ceqt6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > I tried for a long time to *see* your God, John, but
> even
> > > when I
> > > > > was a true
> > > > > > and faithful believer, all I've ever been able to see is
> > > that
> > > > > which is right
> > > > > > in front of my eyes. ..
> > > > > > Ape, who believes in God but spells it Nature. ..
> > > > > >

> > > > > > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > > message

> > > > > > news:8qbl4c$f9auh$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > Right...if you dont want to see..if you clamp your
> eyes
> > > > > shut...you
> > > > > > > cant see....
> > > > > > > and once again you misquote and ascribe the misquote
> to
> > > > > > > another...no one has said or even suggested that faith
> and
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > > are the same (another cute trick that is getting
> obvious
> > > from
> > > > > > > overuse.)
> > > > > > > John
> > > > > > > "For I do not seek to understand so that I may
> believe;
> > > but I
> > > > > > > believe so that I may understand" (St. Anselm:
> Prologian)
> > > > > > > *******************************************
> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> message

> > > > > > > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > Then why is it that you can see your version of God
> and
> > > I
> > > > > can't?
> > > > > > > Is it your
> > > > > > > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the
> > > same,
> > > > > we'd
> > > > > > > all see God,

> > > > > > > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)

> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > > > > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like anything
> else
> > > that
> > > > > IS.
> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > > message

[John McEnery]

Actually..no...I think you have constructed one for purposes of
argument...a straw man so to speak...but your approach to it is
not like the approach to religion that I have ever observed.
I have met many whose approach is similar to yours...and they
were, to a man, agnostics and atheists.
John

**************************************
"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbpnc$f808r$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Just curious, John. Do you think I have a religion? Ape;)

>
> "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qboge$euc2u$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is
> > blind"
> > (Albert Einstein: Out of My Later Years)
> >
> > I just couldn't resist it
> > Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea magna Culpa.
> > (VBG)
> > John
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbo13$f47j8$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > And this is where Einstein would step forward and say,
> > "Everything is
> > > relative."

> > > Ape, with his own awesome God;)

> > >
> > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > news:8qbmtr$f26pl$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > Okay... millions have seen the reality of an awesome
God... I
> > like this
> > > > agreement <G>.
> > > >

> > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8qbkoh$f5rj3$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > Yes, the very same reality. I'd give you no argument on

> > that. .. Ape;)

> > > > >
> > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> > > > > news:8qbk6v$f6odn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > Not really.. millions have experienced the very same
> > reality, both now
> > > > and
> > > > > > in ages past.
> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

> > > > > > news:8qb9ba$fa2ps$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > I'll accept your experience as something which you
> > yourself believe,
> > > > but no,
> > > > > > > I don't see it as a reality beyond you. It was a
> > self-contained
> > > event.
> > > > > ..
> > > > > > > "Karyn_Carlo" <Karyn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > news:8qb79k$f3nnu$1...@ID-10225.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > Meaning you won't accept my experience without
trying
> > to redefine
> > > it
> > > > in your
> > > > > > > > terms so that it "fits" your dogma.
> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Naked Ape <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

[Marylyn]

Of course we aren't different, at the end of the day or any other time.

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbnq4$f6klp$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> Marylyn,
> Yes, we certainly do see spirituality differently. I'd thing it would be
> safe to say we are at opposite poles as to how we see the Magic, as well
as
> how it actually works in our lives, but at the end of the day, are we
really

> so much different? I don't think so. ..

> Ape;)
>
> "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

> news:8qbmou$f9ajn$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Beats me. I don't have the answers about why we see things differently,
> > just know what I see is all and don't feel compelled to judge your
> > experience as either good or bad... that's about all I can be
responsible
> > for : )
> >

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > Then why is it that you can see your version of God and I can't? Is it
your
> > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were the same, we'd all see
God,

> > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)

> > >
> > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message

[John McEnery]

I know you have it...He gave it to you so you could choose Him or
not.
It is your choice....this is in answer to your question of what He
wants of you...He wants you to choose Him...but it is your choice.
John
*******************************************

"Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

news:8qbppi$esau3$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...

> But John, I already have free will. What more do you think your
God wants to

> give me? Ape;)

>
> "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> news:8qboil$fa7b5$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > Free Will, m'boy....it's your choice...always your choice...
> > John
> > *****************************************

> > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > news:8qboc6$f2ge9$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > What is "he" waiting for? What do you think "he'' wants from
me
> > that I'm not

> > > already either doing or receiving? Ape;)

> > >
> > > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

> > > news:8qbn28$a47v4$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > He's still waiting...He does love you, you know.
> > > > John
> > > > ******************************

> > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in message

> > > > news:8qbms8$fbhqc$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > No, I think I tried too long. .. Ape;)))
> > > > >

> > > > > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > message

> > > > > news:8qbm0q$f243k$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > It took me almost 50 years to see him...and I still
only
> > have
> > > > a
> > > > > > dim outline.
> > > > > > You gave up too soon.
> > > > > > John
> > > > > > *************************************

> > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
message

> > > > > > news:8qblos$ceqt6$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > I tried for a long time to *see* your God, John, but
> > even
> > > > when I
> > > > > > was a true
> > > > > > > and faithful believer, all I've ever been able to
see is
> > > > that
> > > > > > which is right
> > > > > > > in front of my eyes. ..
> > > > > > > Ape, who believes in God but spells it Nature. ..
> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "John McEnery" <bigjohn...@email.msn.com> wrote
in
> > > > message

> > > > > > > news:8qbl4c$f9auh$1...@ID-47389.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > Right...if you dont want to see..if you clamp your
> > eyes
> > > > > > shut...you
> > > > > > > > cant see....
> > > > > > > > and once again you misquote and ascribe the
misquote
> > to
> > > > > > > > another...no one has said or even suggested that
faith
> > and
> > > > > > reason
> > > > > > > > are the same (another cute trick that is getting
> > obvious
> > > > from
> > > > > > > > overuse.)
> > > > > > > > John
> > > > > > > > "For I do not seek to understand so that I may
> > believe;
> > > > but I
> > > > > > > > believe so that I may understand" (St. Anselm:
> > Prologian)
> > > > > > > > *******************************************
> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> > message
> > > > > > > > news:8qbkln$f4rtk$1...@ID-10187.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > Then why is it that you can see your version of
God
> > and
> > > > I
> > > > > > can't?
> > > > > > > > Is it your
> > > > > > > > > faith? It must be, for if faith and reason were
the
> > > > same,
> > > > > > we'd
> > > > > > > > all see God,
> > > > > > > > > but we don't, do we. .. Ape;)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Marylyn" <mmo...@cncnet.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:8qbk01$f9r9s$1...@ID-10249.news.cis.dfn.de...
> > > > > > > > > > God IS Ape, and is observable just like
anything
> > else
> > > > that
> > > > > > IS.
> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > "Naked Ape" <Naked...@email.msn.com> wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > > > > > >

[Marylyn]

Sounds to me like an excellent way to conduct a quest : )