The Strangest Project in the World, or how I wasted 15 years..
DougD
The key to this mystery is that the title holds no mystery, it is what it
is, talking straws, as in drinking straws...
Think when you go to a McD's, get your 1 gallon of mystery soda,
put the plastic lid on and jam the fat straw through the hole and it
goes "scrrrreeeetch" (something like that).
Well, the idea was to use that friction to put markings on the
straw so that as it ran through the lid, it would play back sounds
like a linear record through a diaphram that contacted it edgewise..
I'll have to dig out the patent numbers, I'm not the inventor, his name
is Garabedian and his father owned and invented all those goofy
things like plastic records in the 50's and 60's that would show up
on cereal boxes and inside magazines. The record company was
or is Mark 56 records and they also made their name in specialty
stuff like the Batman Show Albums, etc.
His son who enherited the biz and the patents brought this to LM
in about 86 and it got dumped on me as I had been working as
a contractor to Crystal Tech prior to that building up their black
box RF drivers/defl/modulators and at least knew a little about AO's.
The whole painful long story, I had some success during the first
year of working on it, but then LM sent me out of town to work
on the laser video thing, so the project died. Sometime in about
88, the inventor tracked me down and asked me if I'd like to work
on it again on my own and we worked it out and I started back in
on it, and in about 92, had a whole shiteload of some really good
straws that could say things like "Merry Christmas", "Happy Birthday",
or "You've Won!"...
So, you'd think I'd be a freakin' billionaire by now, as McD's alone
goes through 4 BILLION straws a year (in 1992), and I should have
been getting at least a penny royalty on each one.. But the guy that
owned the patent somehow could never get anyone to buy into the
project, and I had no say in how these things got negotiated, so the
whole thing has been boxed up and sitting on my shelf all these years,
never made a cent on it!! I've always assumed since the 90's, that
the brains that put sound chips into greeting cards would kinda make
the talking straw concept kinda obsolete, but I still hand out a few of
those straws every now and then and folks just have a riot playing
around with them!!
Oh well, the struggles of man and mice and all that...
"Talking Straws, end of Part 500 of 500)
d.
Lostgallifreyan
news:9f2dnYZppvsmMl_X...@supernews.com:
Wow, so there could actually BE a dwarf talking backwards?! Small straw,
pulled instead of pushed? An idea like that could always work, it's totally
nuts and never been done, and it would be the kind of fun that explains the
Smurfs and other wierdnesses. That alone would make it succeed, though it
might likely only do it big once.
DougD
>Wow, so there could actually BE a dwarf talking backwards?! Small straw,
>pulled instead of pushed? An idea like that could always work, it's totally
>nuts and never been done, and it would be the kind of fun that explains the
>Smurfs and other wierdnesses. That alone would make it succeed, though it
>might likely only do it big once.
Yeah, I had done some work on making them bi-directional, and doing
some other tricks. Hell, we even had custom audio cuts done for us
of the Ninja Turtles, etc. doing the required sylabyl counts, etc., there
were lots of folks that expected this thing to just go nuts, and to this
day I've never had any good reason as to why no one jumped on it,
other than I think that the patent owner was asking too much $$, not
taking into account the bigger picture of just getting it done and out
the door and not having to be a gazzilionaire overnight.. that was
a big problem here in the US in the "gogo 80's", everyone wanted
everything right NOW!! Others called it "Reaganomics"..
d.
Lostgallifreyan
news:7vOdnU8zq8zes17X...@supernews.com:
If the mechanics were there to make and distibute, then definitely a missed
boat. I'm no businessman (seriously, no aptitude OR inclination) but I know
that some things just have to be put out there, with no concern for the
reward because that's how it works, the reward comes later, and the risk
needs to happen. I heard of a gold mining firm that had run out of gold,
their neighbours were ok, so there ought to be gold on their own land too,
but where... one guy heard of Linux and Firefox and decided that opening the
entire company secrets regarding the whereabouts of gold, past, and
speculative, along with all geological data, was a risk to take, and they
even offered prizes, and put it out there on the net. First I heard of it was
a radio program dicussing open source methods, by which time it was history,
and success, a few people got nice prizes, and the firm made billions. If
they hadn't gone for it with something they could actually do then and there
they'd have gone bust twiddling their thumbs.
This is why I think patents are a waste. They do more to stifle innovation,
and they slow down the patent holder too, to the point where copyright law,
or even full up-front disclosure, is actually better for business. Apart from
buying the time to gear up large manufacture and distribution, I think
they're genuinely pointless, and if the real business is already possible at
a given time, patenting is a waste of time and money that only serves to do
harm to others, not just those who persist in them.
Fleetie
that would cause a tune to play as cars drove over it.
ISTR they ended up removing it because it annoyed or distracted drivers.
I like the straw idea, though.
Martin
Samuel M. Goldwasser
It would drive adults insane. :)
--
sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html
Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.
Ouroboros Rex
Take it to Japan.
Lostgallifreyan
> Take it to Japan.
>
>
China. :)
DougD
Well, it was not mine to take, believe me, at the time that I was moonlighting
this project, I was flying over to Tokyo twice a month to babysit the Sanrio
theme parks we were building. It's very tough to NOT say something when
your customer is one of the largest (and cheeziest, Hello Kitty?) toy manu's
in the world..
d.
DougD
>Fleetie <fle...@fleetie.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
>> Some place somewhere installed a stretch of road that had ridges on it
>> that would cause a tune to play as cars drove over it.
>>
>> ISTR they ended up removing it because it annoyed or distracted drivers.
>>
>> I like the straw idea, though.
>
>It would drive adults insane. :)
>
Actually, the adults that I let play with samples had a hell of a lot more
fun, and spent more time fooling around with the things than kids. Kids
would play around until they got to hear the sounds a couple of times and
then get bored and set it down, unless they were going to go show it to
a friend or something. Adults would sit there and you could just about
hear the gears turning in their heads over what they were hearing, and
how it worked. Plus, you could tailor the message to make it more fun
for adults, I even made a couple of "XXX" rated straws.. Think shoving
a straw in and out of a cup..
d.
Michael Anton
news:9f2dnYZppvsmMl_X...@supernews.com...
> Ok, "Talking Straws"..
> The key to this mystery is that the title holds no mystery, it is what it
> is, talking straws, as in drinking straws...
> Think when you go to a McD's, get your 1 gallon of mystery soda,
> put the plastic lid on and jam the fat straw through the hole and it
> goes "scrrrreeeetch" (something like that).
> Well, the idea was to use that friction to put markings on the
> straw so that as it ran through the lid, it would play back sounds
> like a linear record through a diaphram that contacted it edgewise..
> I'll have to dig out the patent numbers, I'm not the inventor, his name
> is Garabedian and his father owned and invented all those goofy
> things like plastic records in the 50's and 60's that would show up
> on cereal boxes and inside magazines. The record company was
> or is Mark 56 records and they also made their name in specialty
> stuff like the Batman Show Albums, etc.
> His son who enherited the biz and the patents brought this to LM
> in about 86 and it got dumped on me as I had been working as
> a contractor to Crystal Tech prior to that building up their black
> box RF drivers/defl/modulators and at least knew a little about AO's.
> The whole painful long story, I had some success during the first
It looks like this was patented in 1977. How long would this have been
good for, maybe 20 years with extensions? I suspect that by now
it is considered to be in the public domain, and you could do what
you want with it.
Just a thought,
Mike
DougD
>It looks like this was patented in 1977. How long would this have been
>good for, maybe 20 years with extensions? I suspect that by now
>it is considered to be in the public domain, and you could do what
> you want with it.
>
>Just a thought,
>
>Mike
Yeah, sounds about right. It was brought to LM in the fall of 86, and I worked
on it there until the following Sept., then didn't pick it up again until
somewhere in the late 80's, early 90's. At that time, I think he had a 17
year patent, and because of the work that I had done, there was significant
stuff that could have been applied to a new one as to how they were made,
manufactured, and what type of "data" could be put on them. I had thought
that he had re-applied, as we had developed a more precise type of cup
lid that worked better than a generic, so that was to be in a new patent.
Personally, I could care less about patents, it took me some 12-15 years
to figure out how to make these things work, and it will go with me to my
grave at this point. Even the patent holder doesn't know how I do it, to
the point that he could not re-produce what I've done.. It's an extremely
non-linear type of process, and it comes down to kinda like learning
how to play an instrument by ear..
Oh well, maybe one of these days I'll get some shop space and dig
all that stuff out.. Knowing my luck, the day after I start to make
prototypes again, I'll see a talking straw with a nano-amp, EQ,
mp3 player and sat radio recv./cell phone GPS built in!!
Oh, and just to add to the misery, it will have a micro laser video
projector as well...AKKKKKKKKKK!!
Speaking of, saw a Nikon 10mpixel camera with a built in
video projector on the front, for under $500 US, pretty cool!
And on the shelves now!
d.
Lostgallifreyan
news:wK6dnceyCKuivVjX...@supernews.com:
> I even made a couple of "XXX" rated straws.. Think shoving
> a straw in and out of a cup..
>
Mindboggling! >:) Those would have sold, but can you imagine the
consternation if a shipment accidentally arrived at MacDonalds?
Lostgallifreyan
news:5fCdnewlOrF90VjX...@supernews.com:
> Even the patent holder doesn't know how I do it, to
> the point that he could not re-produce what I've done.. It's an extremely
> non-linear type of process, and it comes down to kinda like learning
> how to play an instrument by ear..
>
Off topic but curiously related... Yamaha made a synthesis method, FM, based
on John Chowning's work.On the SY99 it has three feedback loops and 6
operators so you can set up three equal pairs (modulator and carrier) so the
idea of making analog oscillators occured to me, not having an 'analog' synth
at the time... And it really IS like learning an instrument by ear because FS
is not a linear process either, yet I had to have my waveforms crystal sharp
at the low end for deep sawtooth rasp, while having no aliasing at the top
end, and all without any level scaling, or the portamento would not have
worked. I solved this by trial and error, but when I'd done, I found that it
could be set with easily remembered values and a procedure that was easy to
visualise and notate, and the resulting oscillators can be switched to square
or saw with one parameter change, and inverted also with one parameter
change, and with a specific small series of mods, turned into a clean white
noise generator. And I also figured a way to tune the two filters so they
tracked equal tempered tuning correctly and fluently so they can be set
resonant and played as expected on analog instruments. As to whether Yamaha
knew this could be done, I VERY much doubt it because it has one singular
flaw, no realtime PWM possible. It CAN be partly done with two sawtooths, one
inverted, with temporal offset, but that offset lacks the crucial controls,
specifically a Hz detune (one whose beat frequency is equal at all pitches).
THis would have been so easy for them to have done, if they had any idea of
what I had done, they'd probably hae provided a simple fix and sold that
instrument with loud advertising stating its abilities as an analog machine.
I sold my first one to a guy who owned three Minimoogs, and he bought it glad
that he could get a Minimoog sound and feel out of it. I still own my second
instrument, though I don't use it much now.
And if I'd patented this? Why? How? No way I could have done it for anything,
except to limit who used the technique, and as years went by that meant
nothing anyway because digital emulations of analog synths became good and
popular, so what I did will always remain a curiosity, and no more. Unless
Yamaha make me an offer I can't refuse, I guess. :)
Skywise
news:Xns9C983502AFB...@216.196.109.145:
> And if I'd patented this? Why? How? No way I could have done it for
> anything, except to limit who used the technique, and as years went by
> that meant nothing anyway because digital emulations of analog synths
> became good and popular, so what I did will always remain a curiosity,
> and no more. Unless Yamaha make me an offer I can't refuse, I guess. :)
Real analog is making a comeback. Me personally, I have been playing
with VST synth's (software emulation), and most of the one's I've been
toying with are analog emulators.
I'd love to have a bunch of analog synths, old classics like ARP2600's,
Prophet, Minimoog, Jupiter, etc... But I barely have the room for my
relatively newer Roland JD-800.
Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Lostgallifreyan
news:8Erxm.49397$aP5....@newsfe05.ams2:
> Real analog is making a comeback. Me personally, I have been playing
> with VST synth's (software emulation), and most of the one's I've been
> toying with are analog emulators.
>
Analog is sorely underestimated in all respects, and weirdly it will likely
be the electronics musicians who have some of the greatest impact on
consumers, and hence the designers, who are curently striving to use micros
for tasks that analog does far better. Currently there is a new generation of
'designers' in electronics who think that coding for a micro is where it's
at, as if Bob Moog (or Bob Pease for that matter) never existed. Actually
even a micro can benefit from analog log amps, you can get 12 bits worth of
info into an 8 bit input with one. :) Arguably not as cheaply as a 16 bit ADC
but that's not the point, what matters is they don't even think the righ
tway, though LTspice goes a long way to encouraging newcomers to explore real
analog design properly again. Probably why they released it for free, in the
long run it helps their business!
> I'd love to have a bunch of analog synths, old classics like ARP2600's,
> Prophet, Minimoog, Jupiter, etc... But I barely have the room for my
> relatively newer Roland JD-800.
>
Have you seen Superwave P8? It's a VST.. What's special about it is the
accuracy and solidity of its waves and functions, and the fairly high
efficiency. Best of all, look deep, it was constructed with another tool, I
forget which, that is either also free, or doesn't cost much. it lets you
design a synth, complete with appearance, and save the whole thing as a
distibutable VST. Surely one of the most powerful tools existing for the
task, and it puts every paid-for equivalent I've seen to shame, if not the
sword. I still haven't found time to study it (and I'm teaching myself bass
guitar and hoping to complete a pitch-to-MIDI follower based partly in one of
Doepfer's tools, the R2M box, as input to it in place of the ribbon
assembly), but if I'd seen it twenty years ago I think I might have been
using it heavily, maybe to the point of ignoring FM.
I once put an advert in a window of a squat I lived in, asking to buy an Arp
2600 if anyone was selling. Fat chance! >:) Didn't get a bite, obviously, and
couldn't have afforded it either, I had no clue.. But I WAS studying books on
synth architecture and listening to Tangerine Dream, so I think I did ok, it
wasn't wasted time.
No laser was harmed in the making of this post.
DougD
Yeah, there was some discussion about that!! It's hard to believe, but
there was HUGE $$ discussed, the first time I heard that McD's went
through 4 billion straws each year kinda blew my mind!! Even at $.01
per straw, that's a whole hell of a lot of cash! And I had heard at one
point a $.05 royalty on a somewhat reduced amount.. And then
discussion of how much they'd be willing to pay to NOT sell it to
anyone else.. They spent millions themselves developing their
own plastic formulation to make the straws soft enough not to
be to impaled into the roof of ones mouth. That particular plastic
also had the best signal to noise ratio, but we could only guess
at what it was, they weren't about to tell..
d.
DougD
>And if I'd patented this? Why? How? No way I could have done it for anything,
>except to limit who used the technique, and as years went by that meant
>nothing anyway because digital emulations of analog synths became good and
>popular, so what I did will always remain a curiosity, and no more. Unless
>Yamaha make me an offer I can't refuse, I guess. :)
Well, these types of "voodoo" go along way to providing income security.
I got locked into all these theme park gigs in the early 90's where we'd
use Adams-Smith synchronizers to lock 35/70mm film projectors to
time code to do 3D ride films. There was something like 112 parameters
in the AS units that were all entered as hex values, and I was the only
SOB that had ever sat and read throught the 25lb service manual, so
they were stuck with me as long as they used that method.. To this day,
I still get the occasional email, phone call from Prague or Tokyo in the
middle of the night asking me what "Parameter 82" does.. Hard to
believe these things are even still running! JVC actually sent "spies"
to a production meeting where I had to go through a block diagram
of the system for the client eng's, furiously taking pict's of the white
board until my boss who was over from UK leaped up and started to
erase stuff!! Pretty hilarious!
d.
DougD
>I'd love to have a bunch of analog synths, old classics like ARP2600's,
>Prophet, Minimoog, Jupiter, etc... But I barely have the room for my
>relatively newer Roland JD-800.
>
>Brian
A long time friend who I've worked as a backline, key's and FOH
tech for since the late 80's has a full Moog Model 10 and 12
system, I used to have to patch that thing everyday for his
use as a keyboard bass. I'd have nightmares about patch
cords some nights! He also has a pair of Mini's, as well as
some oberheim's with those funky sequencers, some tricked
out Rohdes, and a set of Moog bass pedals. They're fun to
play with, but I don't miss having to hump that stuff around!
He's the guy who played key's on Dylan's "Blood on the
tracks", I know nothing about Dylan, but it's supposed to
be a big deal, I didn't even figure it out until a few years
ago..
d.
DougD
>Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in
>news:8Erxm.49397$aP5....@newsfe05.ams2:
>
>I once put an advert in a window of a squat I lived in, asking to buy an Arp
>2600 if anyone was selling. Fat chance! >:) Didn't get a bite, obviously, and
>couldn't have afforded it either, I had no clue.. But I WAS studying books on
>synth architecture and listening to Tangerine Dream, so I think I did ok, it
>wasn't wasted time.
>
>No laser was harmed in the making of this post.
Speaking of analog, they had a doc on the life of Theremin on the
tube the other night, dumped it to DVD, pretty cool stuff!
I used to know where there was a pair of ARP2600s, sitting in
storage in Mpls. somewhere.. And Roger Dodger Music had
a few of them as well. Remember Funkytown?, that was Rodger
of RDM, greatest synth shop in the US at one time, it was like
a museum with price tags. Shit, now I got funkytown stuck in
my head, sorry...
d.
Lostgallifreyan
news:9JudnXqM_IuG61vX...@supernews.com:
I bet there was. >:) Re plastic, curious, you might find out if you can put
it in a vacuum and look at its plasticiser, and see how it changes. I doubt
they went for something that stays plastic to a constant degree over a long
time, they get through them too fast to matter, though I guess the
plasticiser must not be toxic as hot coffee or soup with fat in it (would
anyone really use a straw for that?) might absorb enough that cumulative
exposure might result in harm, and legal actions.
SNR is interesting, I guess the slightly soft quality reduced HF generation
and propagation so the sound wasn't messy. I think I've seen this stuff but I
don't know what it is either.
Lostgallifreyan
news:2IKdnShArb-r5lvX...@supernews.com:
You mean the song? Sadly, yes. >:) Theremins are great, my pitch to MIDI idea
is basically a way to get that but directly controlled by whistling, singing,
flute, whatever, with the extra of sending MIDI codes that aren't at all
specialised so any synth can use them as a control source. Doepfer did what
for me was the really tough bit, making the MIDI digital stuff and
negotiationg the pitch bends and note changes capable of a pure slide of an
entire keyboard. Even there I had to physically mod their unit to get it to
do this without glitches at each note change, but it puts the idea in
practical reach, once I finish the analog bit. It's still on the back burner,
but it is also (mostly) sitting on a pindeck and working too. Currently
imprisoned in a shoe box...
Lostgallifreyan
news:fuqdnRrR6Lk65FvX...@supernews.com:
> I'd have nightmares about patch
> cords some nights!
I think I'd have had nightmares about it closing ranks around me like some
ghastly Iron Maiden and eating me alive....
Lostgallifreyan
news:fuqdnRrR6Lk65FvX...@supernews.com:
> I don't miss having to hump that stuff around!
>
Most of those days were over by the time I got my first synth (SCI Pro One),
but I agree, and even the Yamaha DX's were heavy brutes for their size. I
only played one gig but four of us shifted everything by hand about a mile
and a half! Unforgettable. The gig went well though so I remember that
better. I think lugging stuff was partly why I like the idea of big machines
that can be made to do lots, preferably all at same time. But now a computer
running Seers' Reality (direct SCI descendent) or VST's in Xlutop's Chainer
make better sense. They don't have much stage presence, but I think the sound
can make up for it if the musicians actually play it and not just sequence
it.
Lostgallifreyan
news:hcidnUxZOb7O5VvX...@supernews.com:
That's a cool way to look at it. It's not like I don't have the time to read
a 25 lb manual, though the prospect fills me with a Mighty Dread of biblical
proportions.
People do occasionally seek me out to ask stuff but it's rare, despite it
actually happening last night, that was first for months, and most of them
haven't got any money.. It does feel good though. If one day M$ ever release
the source of W9X and people start to rediscover how cool it actually is when
it works, I expect to get a lot more questions, especially if people want to
run it on diskless machines or customise it a lot, which is almost certainly
what it would make a comeback for, if anything. It's the single smallest,
fastest, capable graphic-driven OS invented, bar none, how anyone can
consider that obsolete is beyond me, it won't take very long before enough
people look back and realise they lost something really good when M$ divorced
themselves from DOS.
Again, I troubled no laser in this post. :)
Re industrial espionage, funny, I never knew they'd resort to a desparate and
highly visible stunt.. Aren't the Japanese big on saving face? (I thought JVC
were Japanese anyway..)
Skywise
news:Xns9C98D104062...@216.196.109.145:
> Have you seen Superwave P8? It's a VST..
I'll be googling shortly.... :)
> listening to Tangerine Dream
I have some of their stuff, but personally I'm a big fan of
Jean-Michel Jarre. I was first introduced to his music way
back the late 70's - I wasn't even ten yet.
Skywise
news:2IKdnShArb-r5lvX...@supernews.com:
> Shit, now I got funkytown stuck in my head, sorry...
Won't you take me to....
Skywise
@newsfe05.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C98D104062...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Have you seen Superwave P8? It's a VST..
>
> I'll be googling shortly.... :)
niiiiiiiice :)
Lostgallifreyan
news:ehAxm.60019$aP5....@newsfe05.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C98D104062...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Have you seen Superwave P8? It's a VST..
>
> I'll be googling shortly.... :)
>
>
>> listening to Tangerine Dream
>
> I have some of their stuff, but personally I'm a big fan of
> Jean-Michel Jarre. I was first introduced to his music way
> back the late 70's - I wasn't even ten yet.
>
> Brian
Yeah, he's great too. I don't like the later stuff so much, same as with TD,
Chronologie sounded too over produced and didn't allow any sense of space,
something I think vital to his sound, and TD's later stuff seems to me
anodyne, pallid in comparison to the searing irridecense they could make
before, it was like light coming out of storm clouds, or hot rocks rolling
out of the earth, and I suspect we won't hear anything quite like that again
from them. Mike Oldfield had some good surprises too, all of them during the
70's and 80's made good things. Oldfield's 'Amarok' managed to show that
truly unique things were still possible at a time when few seemed to find a
way. It's like a fantastic magic act with good comedy in it, amongst the many
other surprising things it happens to be..
Lostgallifreyan
news:qGAxm.57902$6y1....@newsfe27.ams2:
> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in news:ehAxm.60019$aP5.59652
> @newsfe05.ams2:
>
>> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
>> news:Xns9C98D104062...@216.196.109.145:
>>
>>> Have you seen Superwave P8? It's a VST..
>>
>> I'll be googling shortly.... :)
>
> niiiiiiiice :)
>
> Brian
Isn't it? :) I suspect the underlying tech is even nicer. VEry useful to be
able to design what then amounts to a hard-coded instrument, that way we can
get efficency and versatility, and good looks and our own layout too. Once
enough people get wind of that tool it will terminally alter the ahole scene,
and spending habits, no doubt.
Lostgallifreyan
news:Xns9C9956B4D97...@216.196.109.145:
> the ahole scene
Ummm... that will win my prize for stupidest typo of the month, even though
it's only the third day.
DougD
>I bet there was. >:) Re plastic, curious, you might find out if you can put
>it in a vacuum and look at its plasticiser, and see how it changes. I doubt
>they went for something that stays plastic to a constant degree over a long
>time, they get through them too fast to matter, though I guess the
>plasticiser must not be toxic as hot coffee or soup with fat in it (would
>anyone really use a straw for that?) might absorb enough that cumulative
>exposure might result in harm, and legal actions.
>
>SNR is interesting, I guess the slightly soft quality reduced HF generation
>and propagation so the sound wasn't messy. I think I've seen this stuff but I
>don't know what it is either.
If I remember right, it was made by Phillips, or least it was worked out by
them.
d.
DougD
I had to kinda giggle, the last time I saw ELP was in about 97, and I wandered
over to FOH mixer and they (ELP) were carrying their own yamaha digital
mixer that just fed into a couple of channels of the main board (some 96in
monster), and then a whole rack full of samplers feeding into the yamaha.
KE had his usually collection of things on stage, including some of his
original moog stuff. But it all came down to the show being 100% in the
sequencers, he could have hit any key on any controller on stage and it
would have played the right note in the right voice for that particular
moment, kinda took the fun out of watching them!
d.
DougD
>Re industrial espionage, funny, I never knew they'd resort to a desparate and
>highly visible stunt.. Aren't the Japanese big on saving face? (I thought JVC
>were Japanese anyway..)
>
This was a very coordinated effort that we figured was organized by MITI,
(Ministry of Trade and Industry) who at that time had the last say on any
project brought into Japan via foreign companies. When someone like
us (my bosses at Electrosonic) would win a contract over a Japanese
company, MITI would make sure that the loosing companies had a
chance to "look over" the winning bid, in as much detail as was needed
to copy it. We (a loose group of theme park folks) almost succesfully
won a $1mil plus bid for a couple of 386 computers!! Seriously,
Mitsibushi won the contract to build the motion base seating, but when
it came to running 6 or so analog data channels to control them, they
had to resort to a pair of PDP11's to run them!!! They had no concept
of show control software, and we had guys in Iowa that could run the
whole thing from 386's, so our bid would have been against the
price of the PDP's.. Somehow the US group got excluded from the
bid because they could not provide the software in Japanese, or
at least that's what I had heard.. Funny times back then, lot's of
AID's tests for us furriners..
d.
DougD
>m...@here.com (DougD) wrote in
>news:2IKdnShArb-r5lvX...@supernews.com:
>
>> Shit, now I got funkytown stuck in my head, sorry...
>
>Won't you take me to....
>
>
>Brian
Well, it could have been worse, I could have been thinking
"The Hokey Pokey"...
AKKKKKKKK!!!
sorry..
d.
Lostgallifreyan
news:z5CdnWHVwJmApFrX...@supernews.com:
Really? That's a bit high tech. They do semiconductors and stuff, HID
lamps, laser diodes.. Thought plastics were more like DuPont's area. They're
high tech too though. If someone went to that same Philips for a polymer,
that alone might be a clue to what it is, to those who can read the clue.
Lostgallifreyan
news:Zf6dnSKfIZoWp1rX...@supernews.com:
Yep, to me, ELP are prog rock dinosaurs. But I was ripe for punk when that
hit so it comes with the territory I think. Not that Tangerine Dream is in
any way a conventional punk thing to like but I was NOT conventional. They
used sequencers a lot too, but a Moog sequencer only took around 16 notes so
a basic counterpoint was the best you could get and they got SO much milage
out of that, it influenced my basslines ever since, whatever I do them on.
It's even possible to outdo the classic tuned oscillator sound with tight
control using hammerons and pull-offs on a bass with Rotosound 66 strings and
the right EQ and a 1:1.5 compression or 1:2 at most. In short, I think it's
cool how that sequencer effect really comes alive if you actually play it
because you can throw weight into each note at will. It can be cool to do
that in MIDI too though, best way is an arpeggiator that lets you use a mod
wheel to replace the velocity values, as the Kurzweil instruments do. That
idea is RARE, and given its power, it really shouldn't be.
Lostgallifreyan
news:UOSdnfIhS-oCoVrX...@supernews.com:
If they could have seen Sparkfun's Logomatic they might have got really
worried. Not that it was around then, but with firmware rewriting it could do
1.2KHz analog control out of 10 i/o pins and a couple of UART's too, read
from up to 2 gigabytes of data on a chip the size of a well-bitten little
finger nail, the entire computer being the size of a small match box or GPS
unit, complete with power source. I think 'big' will never again be related
to the tech or even the imagination people have of it, it will now be purely
down to what people can make happen, regardless of how. Same as laser diodes
have done for gas tubes. If a person can carry an entire show as hand luggage
on a plane, the days of big touring shows are over, so long as the small
stuff can emulate the big stuff. And a PA can usually be found locally.
But motion base seating? That's definitely not a portable thing by the sound
of it, any more than a rollercoaster is..
Skywise
news:UOSdne0hS-p4oVrX...@supernews.com:
Fortunately, I do not remember that one very well. Plus, I
don't have it in my music collection. But, I do remember doing
it waaaaay back when I was a pup and used to go ice skating
on Saturdays.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9956FFBE3...@216.196.109.145:
And give's me the best chuckle I've had online in a while. :)
Skywise
news:Xns9C9956B4D97...@216.196.109.145:
> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in
> news:qGAxm.57902$6y1....@newsfe27.ams2:
>
>> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in news:ehAxm.60019$aP5.59652
>> @newsfe05.ams2:
>>
>>> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
>>> news:Xns9C98D104062...@216.196.109.145:
>>>
>>>> Have you seen Superwave P8? It's a VST..
>>>
>>> I'll be googling shortly.... :)
>>
>> niiiiiiiice :)
>>
>> Brian
>
> Isn't it? :)
Actually, let me amend my previous statement....
WoooOOOOOOooooW! And I've only played with the presets, so far.
Of the VST's I've dl'ed so far, this by far is the best for the
types of sounds it does. In looking it up I also ran across the
Roland JD-8000, which is where the supersaw originated.
Skywise
news:Xns9C99565DBEF...@216.196.109.145:
> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in
> news:ehAxm.60019$aP5....@newsfe05.ams2:
>
>> I have some of their stuff, but personally I'm a big fan of
>> Jean-Michel Jarre. I was first introduced to his music way
>> back the late 70's - I wasn't even ten yet.
>>
>> Brian
>
> Yeah, he's great too. I don't like the later stuff so much, same as with
> TD, Chronologie sounded too over produced and didn't allow any sense of
> space, something I think vital to his sound...
Yes, I am most fond of Jarre's early releases. I understand what you
mean about his later sound, though I found Oxygene 7-13 very good due
to the use of the original synths.
Sound need not be complex to make good music. Just like you don't
need to be able to shred the guitar. "So you can shred, but can
you play?"
My problem musically is I'm not that creative, probably due to lack
of formal training, which means I don't know things like, for instance,
my scales, etc.... I can come up with tidbits and pieces, but expanding
them to whole compositions seems to elude me.
DougD
>Really? That's a bit high tech. They do semiconductors and stuff, HID
>lamps, laser diodes.. Thought plastics were more like DuPont's area. They're
>high tech too though. If someone went to that same Philips for a polymer,
>that alone might be a clue to what it is, to those who can read the clue.
Oh, these huge multinationals are into everything, mostly from the need to
be able to do all their product dev. in house. Bayer, mostly known for
pharmaceuticals is also well known for plastics. Chemist are chemists!
d.
DougD
>Yep, to me, ELP are prog rock dinosaurs. But I was ripe for punk when that
>hit so it comes with the territory I think. Not that Tangerine Dream is in
>any way a conventional punk thing to like but I was NOT conventional. They
>used sequencers a lot too, but a Moog sequencer only took around 16 notes so
>a basic counterpoint was the best you could get and they got SO much milage
>out of that, it influenced my basslines ever since, whatever I do them on.
>It's even possible to outdo the classic tuned oscillator sound with tight
>control using hammerons and pull-offs on a bass with Rotosound 66 strings and
>the right EQ and a 1:1.5 compression or 1:2 at most. In short, I think it's
>cool how that sequencer effect really comes alive if you actually play it
>because you can throw weight into each note at will. It can be cool to do
>that in MIDI too though, best way is an arpeggiator that lets you use a mod
>wheel to replace the velocity values, as the Kurzweil instruments do. That
>idea is RARE, and given its power, it really shouldn't be.
Do you ever worry though that sometimes you're (not you, but the "biz")
thinks too much about how to make the music, instead of the music
itself? Half the crap on the radio and the tube these days has some kinda
autotune going on, and samples, etc. stolen from some of the classics
of a long ago era. I was cruising the grocery the other day and I heard
the first few opening lines of the classic "Time of the Season" by
the Zombies, except some bar room diva had completely bastardized
the thing and had just written a whole new song and stuck it on top of
the original!! I just about screamed when I heard that, then I thought
I was having a stroke because I thought my brain was melting down
and hearing two songs at once! ARGGGGGG!! Oh, how I long for
the days of a good drummer and bass player, a B3 and a guitar
player, and someone that can actually sing! It ain't that hard!!
Instead, folks now working their way up to being good at Guitar
Hero, instead of just learning to play...
Oh, rant over, sorry, getting too old..
d.
DougD
>But motion base seating? That's definitely not a portable thing by the sound
>of it, any more than a rollercoaster is..
>
Oh, there's all sorts of portable motion base seating! Most of it's crap, but
it has been done. As for portable, look at U2's current rig out on tour,
just insanity, and they not only built one of them, they have 3 complete
units out there on the road!!! If there could be money made by making
Las Vegas into a road show, it could be done!!
d.
DougD
>> Well, it could have been worse, I could have been thinking
>> "The Hokey Pokey"...
>
>Fortunately, I do not remember that one very well. Plus, I
>don't have it in my music collection. But, I do remember doing
>it waaaaay back when I was a pup and used to go ice skating
>on Saturdays.
Thank God!! You're safe!! Hokey Pokey Free Zone!! Actually,
I never got into the whole Funkytown thing, and at the time it
came out, Rodger Dumas who played and produced the thing
occupied the front half of our office building, I was working at
AVC which built recording studios/stations out of the back of
the place and I heard that damn song all day long for about
6 months, always seemed kinda "weak" as far as musicallity,
or funkiness..
d.
DougD
>
>My problem musically is I'm not that creative, probably due to lack
>of formal training, which means I don't know things like, for instance,
>my scales, etc.... I can come up with tidbits and pieces, but expanding
>them to whole compositions seems to elude me.
>
>Brian
Well, not to keep wandering ever further off topic, but I can't help myself
on this one... I'm a big Jeff Beck fan, although sometime he looses me
on his self described "musical tourette's" that he gets into sometimes.
That being said, he's got this most remarkable young woman out on
his tours playing bass. An Aussie gal named Tal Wilkenfeld, and she
is just, well, incredible!! She started out playing guitar and switched
over to bass a few years ago, and has only been on it for maybe 3-4
years now, and by now she is only maybe 23!! Beck took her under
wing when she was only 20!! If you check out youtube, look for
Jeff Beck, Tal, Big Block or Ended as Lovers, she just rips them
up, even Beck is in awe!! Plus it doesn't hurt that she's a cutie,
(I say that in a fatherly way though)...
d.
Skywise
news:BtSdnUM6zKyeKVrX...@supernews.com:
> An Aussie gal named Tal Wilkenfeld, and
> she is just, well, incredible!! She started out playing guitar and
> switched over to bass a few years ago
That's what made Cliff Burton of Metallica so good. He did the
same thing. I've toyed with basses on occasion when I happened
to be near one, and I'd start playing like it was just a guitar
missing two strings, playing arpeggiated chords and such and
people would be like, "whoaaa..."
> Plus it doesn't hurt that she's a cutie,
> (I say that in a fatherly way though)...
Yeah... uhmmm... yeah... ;)
Skywise
news:tPadnYINqcyQLFrX...@supernews.com:
> Oh, how I long for
> the days of a good drummer and bass player, a B3 and a guitar
> player, and someone that can actually sing! It ain't that hard!!
A friend and I do remixes of other peoples stuff. He's the
creative half, I'm the technical half - as in I know how to
use the software to effect the edits he hears in his head.
Anyway, our current project to do a dance remix of someone's
demo song actually required us to first remaster the original
song from the original tracks. One thing we had to do was
retune everyone's singing. We also had to edit and splice the
arpeggiated synth lines because they were not in time with the
beat. (I use Adobe Audition, btw)
> Instead, folks now working their way up to being good at Guitar
> Hero, instead of just learning to play...
> Oh, rant over, sorry, getting too old..
I feel the same way. Everyone seems to be "so into" _pretending_
to be something, rather than actually _being_ it. I may not be
accomplished or all the good, but I understand what's really
important.
Martin Whybrow
"DougD" <m...@here.com> wrote in message
news:BtSdnUM6zKyeKVrX...@supernews.com...
is talented.
I've never seen a Fender Precision looking quite so well shaped as when
she's playing it ;-) Oops, did I say that out loud?
Martin
--
martin<dot here>whybrow<at here>ntlworld<dot here>com
Lostgallifreyan
news:Wd-dnRr7FMeLMlrX...@supernews.com:
True. Stupid of me not to think of plastics being Philips game too, given
their wide parts range.
Lostgallifreyan
news:JJMxm.297012$tD4....@newsfe07.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9956B4D97...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in
>> news:qGAxm.57902$6y1....@newsfe27.ams2:
>>
>>> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in news:ehAxm.60019$aP5.59652
>>> @newsfe05.ams2:
>>>
>>>> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
>>>> news:Xns9C98D104062...@216.196.109.145:
>>>>
>>>>> Have you seen Superwave P8? It's a VST..
>>>>
>>>> I'll be googling shortly.... :)
>>>
>>> niiiiiiiice :)
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>> Isn't it? :)
>
> Actually, let me amend my previous statement....
>
> WoooOOOOOOooooW! And I've only played with the presets, so far.
>
> Of the VST's I've dl'ed so far, this by far is the best for the
> types of sounds it does. In looking it up I also ran across the
> Roland JD-8000, which is where the supersaw originated.
>
> Brian
Don't think I ever knew the JD-8000 bit if it's anything like the JX-8P I
ought to. I had a JX-8P once, and underestimated it, it does amazing dark
string sounds, if you hear Android Lust's music, or Joy Division, you'll know
the sound I mean. Always wanted a JX10, but this tool that makes the
Superwave P8 is surely the thing to use, I'll probably get into it this
winter. A good way to use some of the long night times.
Lostgallifreyan
news:qPMxm.297211$tD4....@newsfe07.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C99565DBEF...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in
>> news:ehAxm.60019$aP5....@newsfe05.ams2:
>>
>>> I have some of their stuff, but personally I'm a big fan of
>>> Jean-Michel Jarre. I was first introduced to his music way
>>> back the late 70's - I wasn't even ten yet.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>
>> Yeah, he's great too. I don't like the later stuff so much, same as with
>> TD, Chronologie sounded too over produced and didn't allow any sense of
>> space, something I think vital to his sound...
>
> Yes, I am most fond of Jarre's early releases. I understand what you
> mean about his later sound, though I found Oxygene 7-13 very good due
> to the use of the original synths.
>
I agree, that IS a very good extension. I like the weird vocal thingers he
comes up with though, I'm never sure of this, but I think it's formant
synthesis on an FS1R. I had two of those! Sold them for more than I paid too,
when wanting money for laser driver parts, I had an idea I was going to make
lots of them, now unlikely unless people end up wanting me to. The FS1R is
definitely a synth to have, it's power to size ratio is probably unmatched in
the entire history of electronic music. Needs thought to the way to control
it though, immediate gratification isn't part of the package, althouth the
presets are good enough to convince, and there is a nice freeware GUI
interface that runs on a PC, made by Kiril Katsnelson. It's the only
synthesizer (commercial production) that can sing, literally, given enough
work on it. I think it could be made to emulate virtual modelling type sounds
actually better than the VL1, which was intended to do that.
> Sound need not be complex to make good music. Just like you don't
> need to be able to shred the guitar. "So you can shred, but can
> you play?"
>
Yep, exactly. I think people said the same thing about Liszt in his time. :)
I like his Hungarian Rhapsodies though.
> My problem musically is I'm not that creative, probably due to lack
> of formal training, which means I don't know things like, for instance,
> my scales, etc.... I can come up with tidbits and pieces, but expanding
> them to whole compositions seems to elude me.
>
> Brian
Same here, mostly, though I don't think it's so much a lack of creativity,
but a lack of sensing what's important as a framework, so direction isn't
good. It's like placing dynamite beside a wall, it makes noise, but if you
bury it just a few inches it's enough to blow a hole in the wall. I listened
to the JJ Burnel's bassline for Nice 'N Sleazy (The Stranglers) closely, to
learn it, as I think it's a very good way to learn how to get around on a
bass. It's based on very simple ideas, but there are tiny inversions of
patten, the main syncopation with Hugh Cornwell's guitar part, the couple of
extra bars before the he sings, the swapping of patterns in small groups of
bars that make a puzzle for the ear and our sense of the timing in the
song... All these things are as basic as the choices of ingredients in a
simple meal, and I don't think we have any difficulty in finding or making
these ourselves, but the thing is like the art of a chef, working out what we
want the whole thing to taste like, nd having the skill to do it as a
singular expression instead of feeling like we're juggling parts. I used to
deliberately stay clear of anything conventional, though I did once aim to
try a 3 minute piece that might work on radio, just to see if I could. it
actually worked, the structure was great, but the ending was awful, weak and
clunky. People often fail that, it's an art in itself, like the end game in
Chess, most settle instead for a fade out. I prefer Toyah (and want to meet
her, but never have, Robert Fripp's a lucky man), she can end a song like she
walked up to to and slit its throat with a swift blade, but elegantly. I
always admired that terseness and clarity of intent, it's a good way, though
the style won't do for everything.. So now I think that learning how to play
Stranglers basslines is a fast way to learn several things, I'm good with the
left hand, bad with a plectrum, but it gets better slowly. Just trying to
hear the notes and work out how to best play them, taking into account the
spirit of the song, not just a technical best efficient way, all these little
analyses show me how good tunesmiths work, but I found they don't stop me
from being aware of what I want to do. If I'd worked that out I'd have done
this twenty years ago.
What I really have NOT figured out is actual songs, putting words to music. I
taught myself to write poems that people find sharp and very different from
either the beat poet awkwardness, or the cloying sentimental style, so I know
I managed something there, found (or made) forms I liked and found things I
wanted to say with them, often with strong effect, but I have real trouble
putting them with music, and playing a keyboard with both hands, it's like I
have a difficulty uniting the activities of both halves of my brain, perhaps.
The key to all these things seems to be to go with whatever works, whatever
seems to go the right way, even if indirectly. Like the Nile delta, it might
look distracting and fragmented, but it gets there..
Lostgallifreyan
news:BtSdnUM6zKyeKVrX...@supernews.com:
> Well, not to keep wandering ever further off topic, but I can't help
> myself on this one... I'm a big Jeff Beck fan, although sometime he
> looses me on his self described "musical tourette's" that he gets into
> sometimes. That being said, he's got this most remarkable young woman
> out on his tours playing bass. An Aussie gal named Tal Wilkenfeld, and
> she is just, well, incredible!! She started out playing guitar and
> switched over to bass a few years ago, and has only been on it for maybe
> 3-4 years now, and by now she is only maybe 23!! Beck took her under
> wing when she was only 20!! If you check out youtube, look for
> Jeff Beck, Tal, Big Block or Ended as Lovers, she just rips them
> up, even Beck is in awe!! Plus it doesn't hurt that she's a cutie,
> (I say that in a fatherly way though)...
>
> d.
Definitely going to hear her soon. I wish I'd started that young, it's harder
now that my joints and bones won't adapt easily. There's another female bass
player, I think also Australian, really hot too.
Lostgallifreyan
news:M0Qxm.410840$bU2.1...@newsfe29.ams2:
> m...@here.com (DougD) wrote in
> news:BtSdnUM6zKyeKVrX...@supernews.com:
>
>> An Aussie gal named Tal Wilkenfeld, and
>> she is just, well, incredible!! She started out playing guitar and
>> switched over to bass a few years ago
>
> That's what made Cliff Burton of Metallica so good. He did the
> same thing. I've toyed with basses on occasion when I happened
> to be near one, and I'd start playing like it was just a guitar
> missing two strings, playing arpeggiated chords and such and
> people would be like, "whoaaa..."
>
Same with JJ Burnel, he started out on classical guitar. I think the bass is
a solo instrument that can unite rhythm and melodic line, it makes no sense
to me to limit it. Another thing I'm doing is like when I learned harmonica
as a kid, instead of the usual way people think it, like blues/folk styles,
I'd just pick out every tune I could think of and make it like a sung line,
as fluent and spirited as I could make it. Same with bass, as I think if I
can do that it will do far more than playing scales. I'd never have gotten
good on the harmonica though, too hard to control without getting messy, but
the ideal would be to do what Larry Adler did. I think that kind of thing
only ever results from picking up an instrument and failing to tell yourself
what it cannot or should not do.
Lostgallifreyan
news:tPadnYINqcyQLFrX...@supernews.com:
> Do you ever worry though that sometimes you're (not you, but the "biz")
> thinks too much about how to make the music, instead of the music
> itself?
Plenty of times, but I don't worry about it, other things bothered me more.
Thinking hard about it is the key to avoiding copying, finding out the way to
express it, but in the end it doesn't matter. Most people don't think enough.
What IS the music itself? It can't stand on its own like a rope trick. :)
When I taught myself poetry I thought ALL the time, if I hadn't I'd have
written emo drivel like too many others, even though that isn't my style,
because I'd not have guided my perceptions into a form that could be
contained, let alone avoid wasting other's time if they had to bear it.
I think the thing that matters is: is it productive, and does it stand
repeated experiencing? If the answer is yes, then it can be built on.
I have this sort of philosophical idea about 'whim', in that people say "go
on, live a little, break loose, be free, act on a whim, drop thought and just
do what comes to you and be inspired, spontaneous, etc, etc" Sounds great
doesn't it? But it's crap. Whim just means we surrnder to conditioning,
where's the freedom in that?! it takes thought, real guided deep perception
to be free. I'm totally sure that it's the same with making music.
Lostgallifreyan
news:tPadnYINqcyQLFrX...@supernews.com:
> Oh, how I long for
> the days of a good drummer and bass player, a B3 and a guitar
> player, and someone that can actually sing! It ain't that hard!!
> Instead, folks now working their way up to being good at Guitar
> Hero, instead of just learning to play...
> Oh, rant over, sorry, getting too old..
>
I agree there, (not that I disagreed before, I just have a strong view, I
don't think it's opposed in any way that I can see). It;s why I want to make
that pitch to MIDI converter. That's not about magic tech, far from it, it's
purely to make the best interface I know to the heart of a synth so I don't
feel like I need Stephen Hawking's chair when I want to run.
Lostgallifreyan
news:p7Qxm.410841$bU2.4...@newsfe29.ams2:
>> Instead, folks now working their way up to being good at Guitar
>> Hero, instead of just learning to play...
>> Oh, rant over, sorry, getting too old..
>
> I feel the same way. Everyone seems to be "so into" _pretending_
> to be something, rather than actually _being_ it. I may not be
> accomplished or all the good, but I understand what's really
> important.
>
I guess we have an edge then, being older makes us start to see where we
really want to go. While we still have time. We've picked up all kinds of odd
skills, now we maybe just want to make them fly without having to agonise
over them. Or maybe find ways to feel young again, so we get the best of
both.
Lostgallifreyan
news:p7Qxm.410841$bU2.4...@newsfe29.ams2:
> A friend and I do remixes of other peoples stuff. He's the
> creative half, I'm the technical half - as in I know how to
> use the software to effect the edits he hears in his head.
>
You realise that means you have the full capacity then? :) If you can make
that work on your own too, then you'll probably solve the other aspects of
structuring music productively.
Lostgallifreyan
news:p7Qxm.410841$bU2.4...@newsfe29.ams2:
> We also had to edit and splice the
> arpeggiated synth lines because they were not in time with the
> beat. (I use Adobe Audition, btw)
>
>
>> Instead, folks now working their way up to being good at Guitar
>> Hero, instead of just learning to play...
>
I see a pattern in those two points that links with something I do. I stay
with certain tools. People often tell me I should upgrade my OS, etc... Or
not stay with Sound Forge v4.5h... But as I see it, it pays to stay with the
integration of tools we find best suits us, and if it takes a bit of
technical nouse to nurse an ailing rack unit or computer to another ten years
service, go to it, surwe we have to THINK to do that but it really pays, as
these things become a part of us, so they become true instruments for us. Try
telling Willie Nelson to upgrade his guitar. >:)
Lostgallifreyan
news:tPadnb0NqcxQLFrX...@supernews.com:
I've seen pictures. :) Scary big thing with a shape a tad like the arch of a
hand placed with fingertips on the ground? Very very expensive. Not sure it
does much for me though, it's kind of like laser shows, big grand scanned
graphics and lots of power. I'd rather see a simple lumia based on images
selected the way people can find unusual driftwood on a beach. Lasers and
many big shows seem to be all about what Humans can Do but the effort to make
it obviously designed, built, as apposed to also found, makes it seem dead to
me. U2, (and to some extent Pink Floyd) to me seem like monuments. I guess
the size brings a lot of people together and that may work for those people
but I'm too reclusive to get that much of a buzz out of it. Actually maybe
that's not true, I think maybe it overwhelms me so I don't really appreciate
whatever it might do for me..
DougD
>I feel the same way. Everyone seems to be "so into" _pretending_
>to be something, rather than actually _being_ it. I may not be
>accomplished or all the good, but I understand what's really
>important.
>
>Brian
Yeah, it's kinda sad, there's going to be a whole generation
that thinks being able to get around on Garage Band is the
same thing as being a musician. I was wandering youtube
checking out guitar players the other night, Beck (jeff, the
orginal "Beck"), Di Meola, and clicked on a link for
Satriani playing Surfing with the Aliens, what comes up,
the National Guitar Hero Champions "Playing" Satriani!!!
How freakin' sad...
But then I see folks like that Tal, and there's still some
hope..
d.
DougD
>Thanks for that heads-up Doug, I hadn't heard her playing before, she really
>is talented.
>I've never seen a Fender Precision looking quite so well shaped as when
>she's playing it ;-) Oops, did I say that out loud?
>Martin
Yeah, I was always wondering what that particular curve on the upper
part of the guitar body was for... Fits her like the proverbial glove!
Really though, it feels tremendously pervy to look at her like that,
I got a daughter her age and they're both still loosing some of their
"baby fat", actually Tal is a dead ringer for one of my daughters
best friends in high school, also musically talented, and from a
nice "Jewish family"... Nice bunch of kids, mine did pretty good
on piano and guitar, but is now a total science geek on her way
to PhD in genetics, cell chemistry, hoping she comes up with
something to keep my young! er.. not old..
d.
DougD
>I have this sort of philosophical idea about 'whim', in that people say "go
>on, live a little, break loose, be free, act on a whim, drop thought and just
>do what comes to you and be inspired, spontaneous, etc, etc" Sounds great
>doesn't it? But it's crap. Whim just means we surrnder to conditioning,
>where's the freedom in that?! it takes thought, real guided deep perception
>to be free. I'm totally sure that it's the same with making music.
Well, amongst all of the best musicians I've worked with, and I've been
lucky to be around some world class ones, one thing they all had in
common is that they had everything down to muscle memory. They
had gotten over that big hill of having to think about what they wanted
to do and then get their hands, feet, etc to do it, and instead only
had to think of the note, beat and the muscle memory took over for
the rest. I probably will never touch a set of drums again for the
rest of my life, but when I sit zoning out on the tube, etc. I always
have a pair of sticks and just sit and run through all the rudiments
without thinking about it, just so I keep that memory.. I know a lot
of guitar players that would do that, used to keep me awake
at nights on the bus or hotel.... But it's worth it!
d.
DougD
>I've seen pictures. :) Scary big thing with a shape a tad like the arch of a
>hand placed with fingertips on the ground? Very very expensive. Not sure it
>does much for me though, it's kind of like laser shows, big grand scanned
>graphics and lots of power. I'd rather see a simple lumia based on images
>selected the way people can find unusual driftwood on a beach. Lasers and
>many big shows seem to be all about what Humans can Do but the effort to make
>it obviously designed, built, as apposed to also found, makes it seem dead to
>me. U2, (and to some extent Pink Floyd) to me seem like monuments. I guess
>the size brings a lot of people together and that may work for those people
>but I'm too reclusive to get that much of a buzz out of it. Actually maybe
>that's not true, I think maybe it overwhelms me so I don't really appreciate
>whatever it might do for me..
That monster that U2 has out right now just scares the shite out of me!! I
think there has been a line crossed now into how big these shows have
gotten. Madonna lost like 3 folks this summer, killed putting up her show,
and U2 is not done yet. The main rig comes in at 320 tons, the video
rig that hangs from it is 73 tons, something like 40 semi's to move just
one of these, and they have 3!!!! And folks wonder why ticket prices are
so high! In the years PK (Pre-Kiss), a "big" show was maybe one semi
for lighting, one for sound, and maybe one more to carry all 3 bands on
the shows gear. The first "real" rock show I worked was Johnny Winters
with Little Richard opening, we provided all of LR's stage gear, and
the whole show fit into one truck!! And it was a big enough system for
a 4000 seat arena. The lasers and lights and decent sound, etc are
all great, but it's gotten way out of hand, and certainly has done a lot
to keep smaller acts off the road. You either get on a big tour which
is rare, or get stuck doing shed's, or casino's that have their own
sound/lights. Not much left in between. I don't wish this on anyone,
but there is going to be another accident like Madonna's (that was
the second time that same stage had collapsed), this time audience
and/or performers will get killed and maybe then they will get back
to something reasonable.. Either that or folks will just not be able
to afford the tickets anymore and that will kill it even quicker..
d.
Lostgallifreyan
news:LpCdnRPqFb7Bj1TX...@supernews.com:
I agree about that muscle memory. That's why thought is vital. What do you
teach your muscles to do? If think bad, you end up teaching them crap they
have to unlearn. The truly gifted musicians with the talent to pick the right
way for them so it doesn't take them so long, but to get really good they
still have to play for years. A good teacher helps, and is what most people
who can afford one have to use. I can't afford one so I have to think, hard.
I have to test and balance every conceivable decision and figure out what I
want to stay with as soon as possible, then I play accordingly till my
muscles can spare my brain most of the navigation. It's working, I'm already
to play things I didn't think I could do, on any guitar, let alone the large
strides in fingering demanded by a bass. And by playing actual tunes that
test that ability hard, I can motivate myself to an average of 4 hours a day.
Couldn't do that with scales and no-one around to encourage me. it will be
awhile yet before I will trust myself to play via anything but headphones
though, I still don't think it's ready for others' ears, not till it is
sufficiently unhesitant to carry a tune another mind can grasp without
halting and getting annoyed. I know what that feels like, when I was a kid I
heard enough of that. Imagine trying to learn druming on a little quiet pad
alone in a music school (extension of a main school), that's an experience
that quickly teaches a person what kind of sounds become acceptable as
opposed to painfully distracting. I'm not there yet despite learning fast.
Lostgallifreyan
news:j-2dnUMZ2I1BiVTX...@supernews.com:
We live in rich times. In the Victorian era they build palaces of glass. Our
era is the same. In the 70's the escalators were derelict (here in ther UK)
more often than not, relics of pre-war spending power. I hope we don't have
to go through that kind of war again, but I agree, plenty less can reign in
these magnificent habits. Fortunately most of the bands I like hace acts that
will be small and portable enough to survive pretty much anything short of a
sudded unavailibility of fuel.
Lostgallifreyan
news:Xns9C9B2F72A9...@216.196.109.145:
> In the Victorian era they build palaces of glass.
And that will be my coolest typo of the month (as opposed to stupidest of two
days back). Got to love that present tense, coming from a name
'Lostgallifreyan'..
Skywise
news:Xns9C9A5A3C5A1...@216.196.109.145:
[a whole lot]
We seem to be in similar situations. I learned guitar by learning
Metallica. Can't shred, but when I was practiced I could nail most
of the rhythms just fine. But it's fast, and lack of practice slows
me down.
Now, I am all over Pink Floyd. Not fast, but nuanced. It takes
practice to hit those string bends the way Gilmour does. I swear
when I watch him play he BECOMES the guitar. That's what I've been
striving for. (I think I'd call life complete if I could play his
live version solo's of Comfortably Numb)
Lyrics?!?! HA!!! I think I'll just stick to instrumentals. Although
I did come up with something once, but I'd say it's just a good
starting framework and would need some work.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9A5EEF5A0...@216.196.109.145:
> Or maybe find ways to feel young again, so we get the best of both.
I know having long hair helps. Knocks 10 years right off of me.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9A6001CDE...@216.196.109.145:
> I see a pattern in those two points that links with something I do. I
> stay with certain tools. People often tell me I should upgrade my OS,
> etc... Or not stay with Sound Forge v4.5h.
I started with Cool Edit, which shortly after became Cool Edit Pro.
Then eventually Adobe bought it and renamed it Audition. This over the
course of about 15 years or so. I know the software. It's like an
old friend.
Funny thing is, before I bought the latest version I had stopped in
to a couple music stores (one that has "never before in this lifetime
sales" every week) and nobody ever HEARD of Audition. Oh well.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9B2FD985...@216.196.109.145:
Why do people find non-linear time so confusing? I sometimes
wonder if I had gone into astrophysics like I probably should
have if I'd not be working on the "time" problem.
My brain simply does not get confused when I contemplate things
like "if I go back into time and kill my grandfather..."
Maybe I'm just weird. Wait. Scratch that. I know I'm weird.
Lostgallifreyan
news:Wsfym.1$Ug...@newsfe01.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9A5A3C5A1...@216.196.109.145:
>
> [a whole lot]
>
> We seem to be in similar situations. I learned guitar by learning
> Metallica. Can't shred, but when I was practiced I could nail most
> of the rhythms just fine. But it's fast, and lack of practice slows
> me down.
>
> Now, I am all over Pink Floyd. Not fast, but nuanced. It takes
> practice to hit those string bends the way Gilmour does. I swear
> when I watch him play he BECOMES the guitar. That's what I've been
> striving for. (I think I'd call life complete if I could play his
> live version solo's of Comfortably Numb)
>
> Lyrics?!?! HA!!! I think I'll just stick to instrumentals. Although
> I did come up with something once, but I'd say it's just a good
> starting framework and would need some work.
>
> Brian
Sounds like you've taken the guitar further than I have any instrument. I
never wanted to do lyrics either, long Tangerrine Dream like things were what
I had in mind, but the scale of that kind of work was more than I could do.
There are three of them, and they had a lot fo gear.
Lostgallifreyan
news:Dtfym.2$Ug...@newsfe01.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9A5EEF5A0...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Or maybe find ways to feel young again, so we get the best of both.
>
> I know having long hair helps. Knocks 10 years right off of me.
>
> Brian
Managing to run every day is workign for me, so far.. Got flat feet, I didn't
think I could do it, and maybe it won't last, but it's ok so far, and it's
taken a few years of steadily increasing frequency to do it so the odds are
it's going to help. I think I'd age faster without it.
Lostgallifreyan
news:Rxfym.3$Ug...@newsfe01.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9A6001CDE...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> I see a pattern in those two points that links with something I do. I
>> stay with certain tools. People often tell me I should upgrade my OS,
>> etc... Or not stay with Sound Forge v4.5h.
>
> I started with Cool Edit, which shortly after became Cool Edit Pro.
> Then eventually Adobe bought it and renamed it Audition. This over the
> course of about 15 years or so. I know the software. It's like an
> old friend.
>
> Funny thing is, before I bought the latest version I had stopped in
> to a couple music stores (one that has "never before in this lifetime
> sales" every week) and nobody ever HEARD of Audition. Oh well.
>
> Brian
I remember Cool Edit (-pro). Only thing that put me off was the name. :) And
the fact that I only needed stereo at the time, either that or more tracks
that included MIDI (so Cakewalk did that), and the clincher was that little
icon/avatar thinger with the guy banging on an anvil. My second poem, from
the late 80's, is a short one called The Soundsmith. So Sound Forge might
have been made for me, and with a bit of hacking for buttons and cursors for
legibility and a nicer look, I stayed with it since, and always will. It's
rock solid at writing data to file, virtually bomb proof. I've seen plenty of
people swear by Cool Edit though. GoldWave is no slouch either, and has some
unique and useful tricks.
Lostgallifreyan
news:oFfym.4$Ug...@newsfe01.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9B2FD985...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
>> news:Xns9C9B2F72A9...@216.196.109.145:
>>
>>> In the Victorian era they build palaces of glass.
>>
>> And that will be my coolest typo of the month (as opposed to stupidest
>> of two days back). Got to love that present tense, coming from a name
>> 'Lostgallifreyan'..
>
> Why do people find non-linear time so confusing? I sometimes
> wonder if I had gone into astrophysics like I probably should
> have if I'd not be working on the "time" problem.
>
> My brain simply does not get confused when I contemplate things
> like "if I go back into time and kill my grandfather..."
>
> Maybe I'm just weird. Wait. Scratch that. I know I'm weird.
>
> Brian
Actually I think it's cyclic. :) Not one simple cycle though. So like water
flow on a large scale, it can be part of a vast cycle, or result in small
eddies. Not that I've ever caught it at it, mind you.. But this approach is
really the only way to resolve simple paradoxes, or explain why coffee cannot
be unstirred from a hot cupful into its dried constituent parts. Saying
'entropy' never really means much, it's like saying 'snow' when the even
without consulting the Inuit it is fairly obvious that there is more than one
way to snow.
DougD
>Now, I am all over Pink Floyd. Not fast, but nuanced. It takes
>practice to hit those string bends the way Gilmour does. I swear
>when I watch him play he BECOMES the guitar. That's what I've been
>striving for. (I think I'd call life complete if I could play his
>live version solo's of Comfortably Numb)
Every time I've seen him play, the amazing thing is that he plays it
exactly as on the album, note for note! Which is not easy as a lot
of that was assembled out of bits and pieces until it all fit, but then
he has to go out and play it live.. Amazing guy!
d.
Skywise
news:A-WdnThguKVpsFfX...@supernews.com:
I think Pink Floyd's whole approach to their live show was to
make sure it sounded good.
I've been to both Floyd and Metallica. The Metallica show sounded
like a garage band cranked to overdrive. Pink Floyd sounded like a
quadrophonic CD turned up to 11.
Floyd definately strives to make their live show sound as good as
the studio recordings.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9B6491B39...@216.196.109.145:
> So Sound Forge might have been made for me, and with a bit of hacking
> for buttons and cursors for legibility and a nicer look, I stayed with
> it since, and always will.
Reminds me of what is said in astronomy circles.
Q - "What's the best telescope for me?"
A - "The one you'll use."
I'd say that as far as the sound editors go, the one you use is the
right one for you. I do know Audition is used professionally, as I
recently saw a job ad that required proficiency with it. I lacked
all the other job requirements. :(
Skywise
news:Xns9C9B654C921...@216.196.109.145:
> Saying 'entropy' never really means much, it's like
> saying 'snow' when the even without consulting the Inuit it is fairly
> obvious that there is more than one way to snow.
I think people get too simple of an idea with the term "entropy".
It is really a very complex phenomenon which arises from very
simple concepts.
Think 'fractal'.
Lostgallifreyan
news:uUyym.2423$y36....@newsfe03.ams2:
> I've been to both Floyd and Metallica. The Metallica show sounded
> like a garage band cranked to overdrive.
I saw Metallica in 1985, I think. Donnington, UK. When I realised they'd
started I ran several hundred yards from the top end, in a straight line,
jumping fires, people, dogs, it was like flying into a storm, the biggest
widest sound I've ever heard people make. I don't think it's possible to have
that much adrenaline without serious danger.
Lostgallifreyan
news:XZyym.2425$y36....@newsfe03.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9B654C921...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Saying 'entropy' never really means much, it's like
>> saying 'snow' when the even without consulting the Inuit it is fairly
>> obvious that there is more than one way to snow.
>
> I think people get too simple of an idea with the term "entropy".
> It is really a very complex phenomenon which arises from very
> simple concepts.
>
> Think 'fractal'.
>
> Brian
But then, curiously, it gets like which is the best, the one we use, like you
said in the other post. It seems to link into whatever mechanism is at work
in existence that allows commonality and individuality at the same time. It's
like that new agey idea of 'truths', I never liked the evasions that this
notion allows but I can sort of see the point, and we only ever have our own
perspective. Or as Greg House puts it, you might as well start on the basis
that you're right because to assume otherwise at that point is pointless. Not
his phrasing, but he'd probably like it. I tend to think that entropy merely
proves that there is will other than our own. I don't think of it as having
an absolute 'direction' because we don't have enough scope to prove that.
DougD
>halting and getting annoyed. I know what that feels like, when I was a kid I
>heard enough of that. Imagine trying to learn druming on a little quiet pad
>alone in a music school (extension of a main school), that's an experience
>that quickly teaches a person what kind of sounds become acceptable as
>opposed to painfully distracting. I'm not there yet despite learning fast.
Hey, that's how I learned! I got conned into joining a drum corp. when I
was about 9, and we had this insane, but highly talented senior corp.
lead snare drummer as our teacher. He insisted we learn using like
A2 size sticks in our little mitt's!! But it worked, we were muscular
little shits and had all the then 19 rudiments down pretty good for
kids. I didn't even touch a drumset until I was probably about 12,
then got to pick mine out right at the Kent factory which was on
the road to where my dad worked, too hard to avoid when I would
hound them day and night! Damn, wish I had never gotten rid of
that set... Still have my original Ludwig practice pad though!
d.
DougD
>I've been to both Floyd and Metallica. The Metallica show sounded
>like a garage band cranked to overdrive. Pink Floyd sounded like a
>quadrophonic CD turned up to 11.
>
>Floyd definately strives to make their live show sound as good as
>the studio recordings.
>
>Brian
Yup, Floyd was pretty impressive, they had more power on the two
rear quad towers than most acts had on their mains! I would like
to hear them now with all the improvements that have been made
with all these tight line array's, and the digital gear they could
use.
d.
Lostgallifreyan
news:o-6dnXAjq-YtmVbX...@supernews.com:
Cool, you really took to it then. I didn't, I hated that school.. I first
really took to trying percussion on the oddest of 'instruments' of all,
spoons. I saw some folk band, I'd already heard OF spoons playing, but seeing
how much could be done with them impressed me. I never got as fast and fluent
as what I saw but I did learn very sharp timing, and my control was good. I
actually used to bleed and lose small chunks of skin and figure out ways to
avoid that so I could continue. Obsessive, but it was great, I think I got a
taste for it because it was so limiting an idea that the compulsion was to
force that limit. Playing with knives on a bottle (you might well know what
'hot knives' are if you've seen them in their normal usage with a bottle
minus its base), or even on a tiled hearth, is a lot more fun though, it was
justy like that practise pad, but it rang like the play of fast small swords,
plenty of bounce and more fun than spoons. The main drawback is it never
taught me how to choose between sounds because all it can do is continual
variants of ONE sound. But so do castanets, and people can do some fiery
stuff with those..
I had this idea of using electrical impulses from metal to metal contact,
using the knives on a thick stainless disk as anvil, for direct line
recording and effects processing. Sounded ok but too hard to control because
the transitions are way too short, and don't reflect the impact strength at
all so the dynamics were ruined, and it didn't keep me interested enough to
work at it. But like I said, there's not a lot conventional about how I like
to try music, so I'll likely try something weird any time if it looks like it
might be good.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9C632CA7D...@216.196.109.145:
> But then, curiously, it gets like which is the best, the one we use,
> like you said in the other post. It seems to link into whatever
> mechanism is at work in existence that allows commonality and
> individuality at the same time. It's like that new agey idea of
> 'truths', I never liked the evasions that this notion allows but I can
> sort of see the point, and we only ever have our own perspective. Or as
> Greg House puts it, you might as well start on the basis that you're
> right because to assume otherwise at that point is pointless. Not his
> phrasing, but he'd probably like it. I tend to think that entropy merely
> proves that there is will other than our own. I don't think of it as
> having an absolute 'direction' because we don't have enough scope to
> prove that.
Interesting thoughts.
Another aspect of entropy is how much it can seem violated at
the local level. I mean, look at the biosphere of Earth. Talk
about anti-entropy to the extreme, and the more science learns,
the more it seems that life is an inevitable consequence given
the right materials.
Then comes along these things called black holes that just totaly
F with the concept. Although, I just read an interesting article
in Scientific American where some researchers show that in most
case a true black hoel can't form. The resulting object from the
outside acts very much like a classical black hole, but in reality
it never fully collapses. One consequence is that information is
not lost when falling into such an object.
[wow, this thread is sure morphing]
Lostgallifreyan
news:ENSym.222$cH3...@newsfe09.ams2:
Let it morph. >:) The way I see it, if something helps keep this group alive,
then those who want to talk only of lasers have a better chance that someone
is around to answer them, so I hope they have no complaintsd about a few
unrelated headers rolling in. It beats spam.
Thinking further on entropy, I agree, life really does seem to be a true
reversal, and though I can see why it's arguably only a local thing, I can
also see that the nature of existence that supports this life is far wider
than local. The chemistry and physics of atoms and elemnts that makes it
possible are NOT local, quite the reverse, when we see quasars we see things
that fit the same patterns, as does everything between them and us. So it
appears that a 'tendency to life' exists in all matter and energy, and is
driven by a flux of information, for want of better terms, that uses matter
as a stasis to build on. Most artists and scientists who explore their work
well see this, smiths see it in iron, laser physicists see it in light. So
given that even if entropy's reversal IS local, we lack the scope to prove
it, but the nature that causes this apparent locality is evidently not local.
This might not be enough to assert a new model, but it does prove that the
official concept of entropy needs revising, and will only hold for a range of
practical purposes, not as a final decider of truth. Newtonian physics has
already survived such a change in perspective, looks like something similar
will arise soon, I think people call them paradigm shifts. The black hole
situation is interesting, and doesn't surprise me because the nature-
abhoring-vaccuums thing seems to be more overriding than the internal logic
of models of black holes. What is important about them is this idea of info
not being lost. I've come to think that information (again, for want of
better terms) is more fundamental than mass or energy. There's one very
unsettling aspect to this... think of the results of efficient conversion of
a tiny amount of mass to energy. Now imagine (maybe not possible at this
point) the efficient conversion of a tiny amount of energy to unregulated
info. We already know what a tiny amount of radiactive material can do the
the info that is held in stasis in DNA.... Suppose it cut to the chase and
really let rip? The only word I can think that packs that concept into a form
that would capture public imagination is 'brainbomb'. But it would obviously
be wider, it could destroy not only material objects but the matrix of
physical support for them to a point not at all clear to me. I doubt we'll
easily find a way to cause such an event, it won't be as easy as collecting
bits of uranium. The only thing I'm sure of is that life, and info, will
persist through it no matter how it changes them. So if and when such an
event comes, it might make changes beyond the wildest imaginings of all of
history's visionarys.
Lostgallifreyan
looking at an incoming cross-posted multipart binary, and see most parts but
not all, then more in a related group I look at a few minutes later, and I
then want to be sure I see all the parts in one group so I can easily assess
at a glance how complete the arrival (or propagation) is? (I wish there a
simpler way to ask that but I can't think of one..)
Kai-Martin Knaak
> Another aspect of entropy is how much it can seem violated at the local
> level. I mean, look at the biosphere of Earth.
The biosphere converts visible light to infrared thermal radiation. For
every visible absorbed photon, there are many infrared photons sent to
outer space. A multitude of thermal photons corresponds to a multitude of
dimensions in phase space. In addition, the vast majority of visible
Photons originated from a small patch of the sky called sun. By contrast,
the thermal photons leave the earth in any direction. The volume of phase
space occupied by the thermal photons is larger than the volume of their
visible predecessors. Mother earth constantly exports larger amounts of
entropy than she absorbs. Hence, no conflict with the laws of
thermodynamics here.
> Then comes along these things called black holes that just totaly F with
> the concept. Although, I just read an interesting article in Scientific
> American where some researchers show that in most case a true black hoel
> can't form.
Anything, with physical dimensions smaller than its Schwarzschild
diameter is a true black hole. Weather, or not there is a singularity
inside, is a a different question.
---<(kaimartin)>---
--
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53
Lostgallifreyan
news:pan.2009.10...@lilalaser.de:
> Hence, no conflict with the laws of
> thermodynamics here.
>
No, but I wasn't expecting any. Isn't entropy also defined as an irreversible
decline in order? Life is doing something that isn't evident when life (or
tendency to it) is low. We could say it is merely exploiting random
fortuitousness to grow, but there are problems with that. Aside from the fact
that 'random' might as well be a way of saying 'we do not know', there is the
matter of 'exploiting' which appears to imply some kind of will. And no, I'm
not a creationist, I'm closer to atheist or at best agnostic. I'm just saying
that I think Skywise is right, when he says that entropy is a term that is
not adequately defined. I don't think he was implying that earth, or life,
breaks the laws of thermodynamics.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9D721DB98...@216.196.109.145:
Do you mean to complete a multipart binary across multiple
newsgroups wherein each newsgroup the multipart may be
incomplete?
At first thought, I don't think so. Although I've never had
the need. I'll have to try a few ideas.
Skywise
@lilalaser.de:
> Hence, no conflict with the laws of thermodynamics here.
Oh, don't confuse me with those "I can violate the 2nd law" folks. I
am not proposing that it is violated at all. But it should be pointed
out that the 2nd law only applies to a closed system. Obviously the
Earth is not a closed system.
What is a closed system? The closest thing I can think of is the
Universe itself. But I can even think of a hiccup for that, too.
Is the universe bigger than we can see? I mean, information can not
go any faster than C (as far as we know). So what happens if the
universe is actually bigger than we can "see"? That means there is
information beyond our reach. That means that the Universe that we
can observe is NOT a closed system.
> Anything, with physical dimensions smaller than its Schwarzschild
> diameter is a true black hole. Weather, or not there is a singularity
> inside, is a a different question.
The interesting thing about these objects, which the proponents
label "black stars", is that their size approaches, but never
quite reaches the Schwarzchild radius, thus never forming an
event horizon. And by close, they are talking Plankian distances.
Lostgallifreyan
news:zDezm.5273$%O4....@newsfe29.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9D721DB98...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Hi, you use Xnews, right? (Even more offtopic... :) What do I do if I'm
>> looking at an incoming cross-posted multipart binary, and see most parts
>> but not all, then more in a related group I look at a few minutes later,
>> and I then want to be sure I see all the parts in one group so I can
>> easily assess at a glance how complete the arrival (or propagation) is?
>> (I wish there a simpler way to ask that but I can't think of one..)
>
> Do you mean to complete a multipart binary across multiple
> newsgroups wherein each newsgroup the multipart may be
> incomplete?
>
> At first thought, I don't think so. Although I've never had
> the need. I'll have to try a few ideas.
>
Thankyou, any advice is good. Yes, incomplete in each group though the
assumption is file completion on the server, which is basically what I want
to test for. I'm hoping a simple move makes all parts appear in the group
where the move is made, so if it really IS incomplete, I can then see
immediately that it is so.
If I find an answer I'll post it, it might be that both of us, and others,
don't know one. Xnews is a complicated beast.
Lostgallifreyan
news:2Nezm.5274$%O4....@newsfe29.ams2:
> Is the universe bigger than we can see? I mean, information can not
> go any faster than C (as far as we know). So what happens if the
> universe is actually bigger than we can "see"? That means there is
> information beyond our reach. That means that the Universe that we
> can observe is NOT a closed system.
>
>
That's got me going again. Beware. >:) I think it is bigger that we see. I
think the 'edge' where the quasars are is what amounts to a horizon. Why else
would it appear so neatly spherical around us? That's how horizons are. This
suggests that ultimately Fred Hoyle was right, though a steady state might be
a lot more complex. And why not somethign that can appear as such AND appear
as a 'big bang' also? That wouldn't be any weirder than wave/particle
duality.
Re information at speeds faster than light, I think it's a strange picture
there too. I don't think light speed IS a 'speed' exactly. Speeds are
attainable states. Light speed by definition is not, does not pertain to
mass, and has distinct and instant changes in different refactive indices,
etc... We do see it as a speed, and light as travelling, but that picture is
already obviously NOT to be simply compared to the travel of a train, for
example.. I suspect that information is not limited to light 'speed' at all.
I'm not saying it has anything to do with tachyons, I actually have no clear
picture of it at all, though I think the interactions between baryonic (and
leptonic) particles must first have occured at sub-light speed, they have
mass.. Once that interaction leaves their states to some degree 'entangled'
then the transfer of info is not limited to sublight speeds at all (see Alain
Aspect's experiment of 1982, etc..). This has stunning implications if the
big bang model is correct. It likely means that all particles have already
interacted at sublight speeds (not sure, I'm not a physicist), so if they
have they have already become part of an 'entangled' net that no rarification
of vacuum will ever defy. Such a state could account for the tendency to life
(in terms of atomic physics and chemistry as decribed in The Magic Furnace by
Marcus Chown, for example) existing throughout the observable universe. In
short, it means the entire universe is a living organism!
Lostgallifreyan
news:Xns9C9E60180F6...@216.196.109.145:
> In short, it means
> the entire universe is a living organism!
>
Incidentally, what this means is we should never be stupidly surprised when
life appears in unlikely places, or imitates life in regions it has never
been connected with in a way we can see. For example, apparently there are
forms of bacteria that can only exist in compost heaps. Kind of begs the
question of how they get to other compost heaps, though in this case a
mechanism seems easily found if spores can survive long enough to move to new
sites or wait for new opportunities. Finding life in deep ocean geo-thermal
vents is a more interesting case. What will clinch it is the results of
studies of bacteria found beyond earth, in established locations, as I'm
fairly certain someone will do. Similarites aill likely be found that will
leave people arguing for a while about how someone managed to bring them with
them, but eventually a quantity will be found too big to have grown between
arrival and discovery. Could be interesting times, and maybe not long to wait
now that water is being located more frequently.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9E61E30EB...@216.196.109.145:
> Finding life in deep ocean geo-thermal vents is a more interesting case.
How about bacteria foudn inside working nuclear reactor cores?
I mean literally IN the core where the reactions take place.
That's one hell of an extremophile!
Skywise
news:Xns9C9E60180F6...@216.196.109.145:
> Once that interaction leaves their states to some degree 'entangled'
> then the transfer of info is not limited to sublight speeds at all
Ahhh....good... etanglement. Glad you brought it up.
I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that although entanglement
experiments show 'information' travelling at extremely superluminal
speeds, the glitch is that the 'information' is random.
So far, all experiments involve collapsing the wave function of
one entangled particle and seeing how quickly the entangled
partner reacts. The result of the entanlgement is quantumly
random.
It is not possible to transfer information through a random
process.
"What do you want?"
"We want information."
"You won't get it."
"By hook or by crook, we will."
Lostgallifreyan
news:Shzzm.2921$Rk1...@newsfe07.ams2:
> Lostgallifreyan <no-...@nowhere.net> wrote in
> news:Xns9C9E61E30EB...@216.196.109.145:
>
>> Finding life in deep ocean geo-thermal vents is a more interesting case.
>
> How about bacteria foudn inside working nuclear reactor cores?
> I mean literally IN the core where the reactions take place.
>
Seriously? Didn't know about those.. I knew something dramatic other than the
ones in vents had been found, but couldn't remember what they were. Bacteria
in nuclear reactors would be hard to forget.
Lostgallifreyan
news:Vozzm.7645$cH3....@newsfe09.ams2:
> I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that although entanglement
> experiments show 'information' travelling at extremely superluminal
> speeds, the glitch is that the 'information' is random.
>
But that might just be an appearance due to a vast degree of entanglement, as
a vast majority of particles have already interacted witha vast number of
others. It could be like white noise in the absence of a strong signal. We
tend to call a signal 'informative' when we recognise that it has a pattern.
Trying to assess this kind of information that passes around all of existance
by doing experiments designed to exclude most of it in an attempt at some
kind of control, might be like trying to gauge the flow of the Nile by
measuring the smallest most sharply defined branch you can find in the delta.
Skywise
news:Xns9C9F64CEB6D...@216.196.109.145:
> Skywise <in...@oblivion.nothing.com> wrote in
> news:Vozzm.7645$cH3....@newsfe09.ams2:
>
>> I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that although entanglement
>> experiments show 'information' travelling at extremely superluminal
>> speeds, the glitch is that the 'information' is random.
>>
>
> But that might just be an appearance due to a vast degree of
> entanglement, as a vast majority of particles have already interacted
> witha vast number of others.
Again, if I understand correctly, once the wave function is collapsed
the pair are no longer entangled.
Also, quantum randomness is truely random.
Let me give an example that may not be technically correct, but
should illustrate the point.
You have an excited atom that emits two photons, each going in
opposite directions. When emitted, the polarization states are
entangled. We do not know the polarization state until we
measure it - ie collapse the wave function. When we do measure it,
the other photon _instantly_ becomes the opposite polarization.
However, the actual polarization that appears when we measure the
photon is purely random. There is no way to control what the
polarization state will be.
So although it is possible to instantaneously force a photon's
polarization state across superluminal distances, we cannot
actually force it into any particular state.
It is known that a purely random signal can carry no information.
So, although we can send a signal at superluminal speeds, it's
a purely random signal. Hence, no information transfer.
(I hope I got this right, been a while since I read up on
entanglement)