The origin of Sahir Ludhianvi's taKhallus
v
nom de plume after reading Allama Iqbal's couplet
"is chaman mein honge paida bulbul-e-shiraaz bhi, sainkDon saahir bhi
honge saahib-e-eijaaz bhi".
I am translating this as
This garden will give rise to nightingales of shiraaz (??)
Hundreds of magicians will also be there and so will be respectable
people
I am unable to decode this couplet. Obviously it must be a powerful
one for Mr Hayee to pick it as his taKhallus.
Please help me understand this couplet.
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aadaab
You would have heard of a famous Farsi poet called Hafiz Sherazi
(1315-1390). His full name was Khvaajah Shamsuddiin Muhammad and his
taKhallus was "Haafiz" as he knew the whole of the Qur'an by heart. He
hailed from Shiiraaz hance Sherazi.
He was a renowned Ghazal writer and it is said that Farsi Ghazal was
at its peak with Hafiz. Because of his eloquence he was known as
Bulbil-i-Shiiraaz". He is revered so much that people use his diivaan
for the purposes of "faal" (omen). He was known as "Lisaan-ul-
Ghaib" (Tongue of the unseen/Voice of prophecy). Remember Ghalib said
something similar about himself?
aate haiN Ghaib se yih mazaamiiN Khayaal meN
Ghalib sariir-i-Khaamah navaa-i-sarosh hai
These ideas come to my mind from the unseen
Oh Ghalib, the screeching of the pen is voice of an angel
In the translation of the second line, ahl-i-i'jaaz means those who
perform miracles.
Naseer
v
>
> - Show quoted text -
Naseer Saahib,
Thanks for the background on the bulbul e sheeraaz. but I am still
lost about the meaning of this couplet.
this garden shall see the birth of the great poet, the nightingale of
sheeraaz
there will also be many magicians who will perform miracles
although the metrical pattern is alluring, I am still lost to its
meaning.
and on a slightly unrelated topic, can I motivate you to please start
a blog/thread on Ghalib's poetry. You translated a couplet I knew for
long (but did not understand) pretty neatly. I possess three four
'Teekaas' of Ghalib and of course there is muhtarmaa Pritchett. But I
must confess she leaves me totally confused. Bekhud says this, haali
says this, fwp says this and these could be the additional layers.
itnaa dimaaG to nahee.n thaa shaayad Ghaalib ke paas.
aise jab bhee aap ko fursat mile to kuchh aur ghaalib ke ashaar kee
vazaahat kare.n aur mashkoor ho jaae.n.
shuruaat ke liye ek peshkash hai
'aah ko chaahiye ek umr asar hone tak'
agar aap ye kisi laRii me.n pehle kar chuke ho.n to uskaa pataa
Thikaanaa bataa de.n.
Afzal A. Khan
As far as I recollect, I had offered an explanation of this
sher some 7/8 years back. I think if you search the
Archives with the search term "muhim", you may be able to
retrieve it. Mind you, this is just one way of looking at
this sher. It is by no means necessary that (most) others
should agree with this.
Afzal
v
>
> - Show quoted text -
Afzal Saahab
Thanks. Will search for it.
I must say that I am tired of multiple ways and would love the 'one'
way. as bulle shah famously said 'bulle shah koi vast vihaaj le nai te
baazi lai gaye kutte tainkoo utte'
v
>
> - Show quoted text -
aap shaayad neeche likhe post kaa zikr kar rahe hai.n. mai.n phir bhee
samajhne me.n asamarth hoo.n. aapne sahi farmaayaa hai ki 'zulf ke sar
hone tak' me.n hee dushvaarii hai. if i attempt a simple english
translation
Plaints take a lifetime to be effective
I dont think I will live to see your tresses being straightened
but then it does not make any sense. also pritchett writes it as 'hote
tak' instead of 'hone tak'. what does she know that others dont?
Yesterday Janab Bali Sahib asked for an interpretation of the
following
sher of Ghalib :
Aah ko chaahiye ik umr asar hone tak
Kaun jeeta hai teri zulf ke sar hone tak
Harchand ke unka sawaal Janab Raj Kumar Sahib ke liye tha, lekin
agar main
kuchh arz karoon to ummeed hai aap donon hazraat kuchh khayaal na
farmaayenge.
In this sher, most people find difficulty with the last 4/5 words
i.e.
"zulf ke sar hone tak". I think this difficulty can be resolved if
we
insert the word "muhim" in between, while trying to understand the
meaning of the sher.
Mehboob ki zulf tak rasai (ya wisaal-e-mehboob kah leejiye) koi
aasaan
marhala nahin. Mehboob ko manaana, use apni taraf maail karna---
is
men muddaten guzar jaati hain. Hamen go ke yaqeen hai ke ek din
hamaari
aahen asar laa ke rahengi, mehboob ka dil paseejega aur hamaare dil
ki
tamanna poori hogi, magar kya us waqt ke aane tak hum zinda bhi
rahenge ?
Iski koi ummeed nahin. Is liye hamaara yeh yaqeen (ke hamaari aahen
asar
dikhaengi) ek tarah se la-haasil hai.
Is men ek lateef nukta yeh bhi hai ke ho sakta hai mehbbob ko apni
taraf
maail karne men zyaada muddat darkaar na ho. Ho sakta hai woh jald
maan jaye. Magar yeh arsa chaahe kitna hi mukhtasir kyon na ho,
hamaare
liye bahut ziyaada saabit hoga. Hum us waqt se pehle hi is jahaan
se
guzar jaayenge.
Mehboob ki zulf tak rasai (ya wisaal-e-mehboob) ko ek hausla-shikan
muhim se taabeer kiya hai. Ek din yeh muhim sar zuroor hogi magar
us
waqt tak bahut der ho chuki hogi. Is lafz (muhim) ko yahaan
"mehzoof"
samajhna chaahiye.
Janab Bali Sahib ne mujhe nek alfaaz men yaad kiya. Bahut
bahut shukriya. Ab yeh shikaayat na hogi ke
Hum bhi hain ek inaayat ki nazar hone tak !
Khuloos-kesh
Afzal
Afzal A. Khan
"Hote tak" and "Hone tak" :
There have been long discussions in respect of the above.
And that too, not long ago. If you search the Archives,
you would find the threads. This time, I would leave it
to Naseer Saheb to do the honours.
Afzal
UVR
Ravi saahib,
jab tak Afzal saahib aap ke sawaaloN kaa jawaab deN maiN bhi ekaadh
baat 'arz kar looN?
(1) sar karnaa -- kaa matlab hotaa hai "to attain, accomplish" as well
as "completed, conquered". Now can you think of a couple of (or even
one!) way in which an 'aashiq can attain his beloved's silken
tresses? Or someone (who?) can conquer (tame?) her wayward locks?
Perhaps you can attempt another (couple of?) translation(s) of this
sh'er by yourself before Afzal saahib responds to your post?
(2) That Ghalib wrote this sh'er originally with the radeef being
"hote tak" has been established with a fair degree of certainty by
researchers into Ghalib's work. It is also known that along the way,
some kaatib did some "value addition" by merging the two nuqtas on top
of 'te' into one, resulting in 'hoNE tak'. Fortunately(?), hone tak
conveys almost the same meaning as hote tak. Dr. Pritchett has chosen
to revert to the original transcript and use 'hote'.
-UVR.
Naseer
> (2) That Ghalib wrote this sh'er originally with the radeef being
> "hote tak" has been established with a fair degree of certainty by
> researchers into Ghalib's work. It is also known that along the way,
> some kaatib did some "value addition" by merging the two nuqtas on top
> of 'te' into one, resulting in 'hoNE tak'. Fortunately(?), hone tak
> conveys almost the same meaning as hote tak. Dr. Pritchett has chosen
> to revert to the original transcript and use 'hote'.
I would say that the degree of certainty is on a much higher scale
than "fair". I might even go as far as "absolute"!
In addition to all the other references which Zafar Sahib has provided
in previous threads, co-incidently, this Ghazal is also mentioned in
"Yaadgaar-i-Ghalib" and the radiif is "hote tak".
Naseer
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aadaab.
Poetry is not an exact science. One can not always have just one clear
meaning of a shi'r. Even in ALUP, we often see comments like...
I did n't mean this...!
How can you deduce this from what I wrote....?
I am sorry but you have completely misunderstood my point!
And so on and so forth.
So, if the situation is like this in prose, can we really expect
everyone to have just one take on a couplet all the time? You have
quoted Bulleh Shah, but you will find that the real meaning is not
necessarily the obvious meaning. If you like Bulleh Shah, then listen
to this by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
http://nitricoxideno.blogspot.com/2008_05_01_archive.html
Here is a link to the hone tak/hote tak debate.
As for as the difference in meaning is concerned," Faruqi* saahib has
even commented in one of his books that "ma'ani ke lihaaz se 'hote
tak' 'hone tak' se kaheeN behtar hai." **
* Shamsu Rahman Faruqi, a well known critic and poet.
** Quoted from Zafar Sahib's post.
Naseer
v
Strange! Even with this kind of certainty all the sung versions of
this ghazal have used 'hone tak'.
v
>
> - Show quoted text -
UVR Saahib
Thanks.
So one translation could be
Plaints take a lifetime to be effective
Who will live till your tresses are tamed
(this does not make sense, so)
Plaints take a lifetime to be effective
I desperately want to tame those curly tresses by using my expert
hands, but not sure if I have time enough in this lifetime, going by
the speed at which my sigh is progressing. By the time it becomes
effective, you will not neglect it and acquiesce to have your tresses
tamed. either you have to become more sensitive to my sighing or I
have to sigh louder or the wind has to blow faster.
hmmm this looks good.
v
>
> As for as the difference in meaning is concerned," Faruqi* saahib has
> even commented in one of his books that "ma'ani ke lihaaz se 'hote
> tak' 'hone tak' se kaheeN behtar hai." **
>
> * Shamsu Rahman Faruqi, a well known critic and poet.
>
> ** Quoted from Zafar Sahib's post.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Naseer Saahab
You are absolutely right. Poetry is not an absolute science. But it is
still better if there is a dummies guide for the lesser mortals like
me. after that others can go on intellectualising at higher altitudes.
I could myself do that after I evolve a bit. but to start with I want
one POV. a POV which is logical and coherent. it might not cover other
possible interpretations. but that is fine.
I do think it is time that someone wrote an idiots guide to ghalibs
urdu diwan. something like the bhagvad gita. first give the exact
couplet (in persian script(in larger font) , in devanagari and in
roman), then you give the meaning of all the words. and then a simple
interpretation or 'bhaavaarth' as they call it.
since you translated that ghaib mazaameen stuff beautifully, i thought
you could be a good candidate to write such a book. the others on this
forum could possibly collaborate (I dont know where you all live).
just a thought.
till someone actually does that, I shall relegate myself to
qatra qatra miltee hai
qatra qatra peene de
alup hai
paRhne do
pyaasaa hoo.n mai.n
pyaasaa rehne do
Afzal A. Khan
Come to think of it, why do we insist on interpreting
"zulf" in a literal sense ? Why can't we think of the
word as an "isti'aara" for the mehboob or m'ashooq ?
In other words, "zulf" kehna aur "mehboob" muraad lena.
Afzal
v
Afzal Saahab
kaun jeetaa hai teri zulf (read mehboob) ke sar hone tak
the word 'teri' makes this interpretation difficult
Naseer
On 31 Mar, 05:37, v <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are absolutely right. Poetry is not an absolute science. But it is
> still better if there is a dummies guide for the lesser mortals like
> me. after that others can go on intellectualising at higher altitudes.
> I could myself do that after I evolve a bit. but to start with I want
> one POV. a POV which is logical and coherent. it might not cover other
> possible interpretations. but that is fine.
What is POV? Or am I a real "dummy" in asking this question?:-) OK,
here is a dummy's explanation for your shi'r (by the way, your
original subject was Sahir's taKhallus!). Are you ready?
merii saarii Hayaatii tere jittaNR nuuN tarsdiyaaN laNg ga'ii e. jadoN
toRii teri aaKaR bhajje gii, udoN tak meraa kakh vii na'iiN rave
gaa!!
> I do think it is time that someone wrote an idiots guide to ghalibs
> urdu diwan. something like the bhagvad gita. first give the exact
> couplet (in persian script(in larger font) , in devanagari and in
> roman), then you give the meaning of all the words. and then a simple
> interpretation or 'bhaavaarth' as they call it.
If it was written in Persian script, you will not be able to make a
head or tail of it. It will need to be in Urdu script, otherwise there
will not be bh, ph, th, T, Th, jhh, chh, D, Dh, R, Rh, k kh, g, gh
sounds!
> since you translated that ghaib mazaameen stuff beautifully, i thought
> you could be a good candidate to write such a book. the others on this
> forum could possibly collaborate (I dont know where you all live).
> just a thought.
Sorry, Ravi Sahib, which "Ghalib mazaameen" stuff are you talking
about? Are you suggesting " A Dummy's Guide to Ghalib for Dummies"!?
Sorry, but people will not want to read someone's work if they
believe he/she has no credibility whatsoever!
Naseer
v
> Ravi Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
>
> On 31 Mar, 05:37, v <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You are absolutely right. Poetry is not an absolute science. But it is
> > still better if there is a dummies guide for the lesser mortals like
> > me. after that others can go on intellectualising at higher altitudes.
> > I could myself do that after I evolve a bit. but to start with I want
> > one POV. a POV which is logical and coherent. it might not cover other
> > possible interpretations. but that is fine.
>
> What is POV? Or am I a real "dummy" in asking this question?:-) OK,
> here is a dummy's explanation for your shi'r (by the way, your
> original subject was Sahir's taKhallus!). Are you ready?
>
Naseer Saahab
sirji tussee ehoN jaii gallaaN karde paye ho :) point of view or nukte
nazar. hmmm that reminds me. allama iqbal saahab kaa sher to kahiin
kho saa gayaa.
> merii saarii Hayaatii tere jittaNR nuuN tarsdiyaaN laNg ga'ii e. jadoN
> toRii teri aaKaR bhajje gii, udoN tak meraa kakh vii na'iiN rave
> gaa!!
sir ye to vohi baat huyee jo shree anil kapoor ne film race me.n kahee
thii. and I quote "mai.n anaar khaa rahaa hoo.n to aap mujhe anaaRii
to nahii.n samajh rahe'. similarly mai.n beech beech me.n punjabi likh
detaa hoo.n to aap mujhe punjaabi to nahee.n samajh rahe :( sirjii
english me.n samjhaa do naa
>
> > I do think it is time that someone wrote an idiots guide to ghalibs
> > urdu diwan. something like the bhagvad gita. first give the exact
> > couplet (in persian script(in larger font) , in devanagari and in
> > roman), then you give the meaning of all the words. and then a simple
> > interpretation or 'bhaavaarth' as they call it.
>
> If it was written in Persian script, you will not be able to make a
> head or tail of it. It will need to be in Urdu script, otherwise there
> will not be bh, ph, th, T, Th, jhh, chh, D, Dh, R, Rh, k kh, g, gh
> sounds!
sorry I meant the urdu script.
>
> > since you translated that ghaib mazaameen stuff beautifully, i thought
> > you could be a good candidate to write such a book. the others on this
> > forum could possibly collaborate (I dont know where you all live).
> > just a thought.
>
> Sorry, Ravi Sahib, which "Ghalib mazaameen" stuff are you talking
> about? Are you suggesting " A Dummy's Guide to Ghalib for Dummies"!?
> Sorry, but people will not want to read someone's work if they
> believe he/she has no credibility whatsoever!
>
> Naseer
woh ek sher thaa naa , aate hai.n Gaib se ye mazaamee.n Khayaal me.n -
Jagjit Singh had sung this and I have heard this too. but I never
really understood it till you wrote those two lines of english
translation. So I am suggesting - Ghaalib for dummies (for the sake of
clarity you could write dummies like Ravi in the preface :))
aur janaab doosro.n kaa to pataa nahee.n mai.n paRhne kaa mushtaaq
hoo.n. and as that movie field of dreams said, if you will build they
will come.
aap banaa ke to dekho
Regards
Ravi
Naseer
> On Mar 31, 3:48 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > merii saarii Hayaatii tere jittaNR nuuN tarsdiyaaN laNg ga'ii e. jadoN
> > toRii teri aaKaR bhajje gii, udoN tak meraa kakh vii na'iiN rave
> > gaa!!
>
> sir ye to vohi baat huyee jo shree anil kapoor ne film race me.n kahee
> thii. and I quote "mai.n anaar khaa rahaa hoo.n to aap mujhe anaaRii
> to nahii.n samajh rahe'. similarly mai.n beech beech me.n punjabi likh
> detaa hoo.n to aap mujhe punjaabi to nahee.n samajh rahe :( sirjii
> english me.n samjhaa do naa
O Kho, aap ne to Ghazab hii kar diyaa! vuh adaa aNgrezii meN kahaaN se
laa'uuN jo Panjabi meN hai? aap Panjabi nahiiN to phir ham PanjaabiyoN
meN ghusne kii kyuN koshsih karte rahte haiN?!:-) kabhii Bulleh Shah
kaa zikr chheR dete haiN aur kabhii kisii be-chaare "khote" kaa! aap
par ab kaRii nazar rakhnii paRe gii, Huzuur!
Naseer
UVR
janaab-e-V saahib:
Why does "teri zulf ke sar hone tak" have to mean "until your tresses
are tamed"? Why can't it just mean "until I can attain you[r silken
locks]"? After all, "sar karna" also has the meaning of
'accomplishment, attainment' right?
When one interpretation of a sh'er/misr'a does not seem to make sense,
it may be useful to attempt another using a different meaning of the
constituent words!
Now, ask yourself, is it possible to really attain the beloved('s
zulf)? What kind of troubles and tribulations beset the lover who
embarks on such an undertaking? Is such a accomplishing such a task
any less than conquering a stiff adversary in a troublesome war
(muhimm)? "Conquering" again brings to mind "sar karna" -- how
interesting! No?
-UVR.
v
Naseer Saahab
ha ha ha! woh kyaa sher thaa 'banaa ke hum punjaabiyo.n kaa bhes...'
UVR
>
> aap Panjabi nahiiN to phir ham PanjaabiyoN
> meN ghusne kii kyuN koshsih karte rahte haiN?!:-) kabhii Bulleh Shah
> kaa zikr chheR dete haiN aur kabhii kisii be-chaare "khote" kaa! aap
> par ab kaRii nazar rakhnii paRe gii, Huzuur!
>
> Naseer
For some reason, reading this, I am reminded of the phrase "ahl-e-
zabaaN" and the discussion surrounding that. :-)
-UVR.
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aap jis bhes meN bhii aa'eN aap kii marzii lekin mujhe is
baat kaa sadmah hai kih maiN ne is shi'r kii Panjabi meN tashriiH kar
ke aap par zaa'i' kar dii!!:-)
Naseer
v
>
> - Show quoted text -
sir angrezi me.n bhee kar de.n to nawaazish.
vaise iskaa aglaa sher bhee confusion kaa baais hai
aashiquee sabr talab aur tamannaa betaab
dil kaa kyaa rang karoo.n Khoon e jigar hote tak
misraa e uulaa to paanii kee tarah saaf hai. misraa e saani ko nahee.n
samajh paaye hai.n
Naseer
Ravi Sahib, aadaab
lagtaa hai kih aap bhii merii tarH is "nikamme" kaam ke sivaa aur
kuchh nahiiN karte!:-) aap kaa thread shuruu' kahaaN se hu'aa thaa aur
jaa kahaaN rahaa hai! ise lagaam diiji'e! varnah qaabuu meN nahiiN
rahe gaa:-)
saaf paanii aap ko kahaaN se mil rahaa hai. kisii aab-shaar ke niiche
baiThe hoN ge aap!
Naseer
v
alup ne nikamma kar diyaa Naseer
varnaa hum bhii aadmii the kaam ke
by the way, nikamma word kee wajah se pichhlaa election manmohan singh
ji jeet gaye the. ab hum dono.n bhee apne apne mulkon me.n vazeer e
aazam ban sakte hai.n
vipul kumar
> On Mar 29, 9:08 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On 29 Mar, 13:32, v <kumar.vr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >