> Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > use huaa?
> Bhavana
Bhavana ji,
'aam bolchaal meN (i.e., colloquially) "firaaq" kaa aisaa ist'emaal paayaa jaa saktaa hai. albatta, I am not sure it exactly means "khoj" (search). It's more like being fascinated by/obsessed with/ captivated by/... etc. "kisi [ki] dhun meN rahne" yaa "kisi soch meN gum/Doobe rahne" kaa-saa matlab is ist'emaal se nikalaa jaa saktaa hai.
As for exactly how this usage might have come about, your guess is as good as mine. But here's a thought: what are the various things that happen when you're separated from someone? -- subH-o-shaam usee ke KhayaaloN meN gum rahnaa, din-raat aaNkhoN kaa usee ki "talaash" karnaa, waGhairah, waGhairah. hai naa?
-UVR.
PS: pichhle saal ek filmi gaana kaafi mashhoor ho gayaa thaa jis meN 'firaaq' ko in 'aam ma'anoN meN liyaa gayaa thaa -- "kyooN ... khoye khoye chand ki firaaq meN, talaash meN, udaas hai dil" (Khoya Khoya Chand (2007). Lyricist: Prasoon Joshi)
> Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > use huaa? > Bhavana
Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then the sentence which you have quoted, i.e.
lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai
can be thought of as:
But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation.
In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original sentence and needs to be understood.
lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. What do you think?
> > Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > > firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > > use huaa? > > Bhavana
> Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
> UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst > reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", > a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche > into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then > the sentence which you have quoted, i.e.
> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai
> can be thought of as:
> But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation.
> In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original > sentence and needs to be understood.
> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. > What do you think?
> KHair-KHvaah, > Naseer
firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of obsession or paagal-pan.
Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). Does "maza" fall into this category?
> On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > > > firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > > > use huaa? > > > Bhavana
> > Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
> > UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst > > reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", > > a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche > > into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then > > the sentence which you have quoted, i.e.
> > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai
> > can be thought of as:
> > But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation.
> > In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original > > sentence and needs to be understood.
> > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. > > What do you think?
> > KHair-KHvaah, > > Naseer
> firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just > Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of > obsession or paagal-pan.
> Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and > Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). > Does "maza" fall into this category?
> Jamil
janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent, then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai?
I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai." for example.
> On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > > > firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > > > use huaa? > > > Bhavana
> > Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
> > UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst > > reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", > > a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche > > into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then > > the sentence which you have quoted, i.e.
> > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai
> > can be thought of as:
> > But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation.
> > In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original > > sentence and needs to be understood.
> > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. > > What do you think?
> > KHair-KHvaah, > > Naseer
> firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just > Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of > obsession or paagal-pan.
> Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and > Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). > Does "maza" fall into this category?
> Jamil
Yes, I have heard 'mazaa', 'mazaak' and even 'gussaa' being colloquially used as if they were feminine words.
However, while AFAIK, the feminine charchaa in Hindi is a direct relative of the Sanskrit "charchaa" (also feminine), no such relationship exists between any of the other words I have mentioned and their colloquial versions. I could be wrong, but I think those are truly 'vulgar' forms.
Two other words, that we have previously talked about on ALUP, which seem to occur in both their masculine as well as feminine forms are "khoj" and "saaNs." The saaNs discussion occurred earlier this year, and the khoj one, a few years ago (I believe the 'khoj' thread had the benefit of your participation as well).
Naseer wrote: > On Sep 8, 12:03 pm, Jamil <dehq...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski >>>> firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise >>>> use huaa? >>>> Bhavana >>> Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai. >>> UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst >>> reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", >>> a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche >>> into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then >>> the sentence which you have quoted, i.e. >>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai >>> can be thought of as: >>> But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation. >>> In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original >>> sentence and needs to be understood. >>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. >>> What do you think? >>> KHair-KHvaah, >>> Naseer >> firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just >> Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of >> obsession or paagal-pan.
>> Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and >> Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). >> Does "maza" fall into this category?
>> Jamil
> janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come > across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the > connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern > development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is > masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent, > then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is > implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai?
> I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai." > for example.
> KHair-KHvaah, > Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
I had been meaning to say a few words in this thread but kept putting off my response.
While the dictionary meaning or the "nast'aleeq" meaning of the word has been explained in the thread, I feel the sense in the examples quoted by Bhaavna-ji is something like "fikr" or "dhun", and that too in a slightly vulgar connota- tion. By "vulgar", I don't mean anything obscene or risque, but something like slang which the semi-literate folks are wont to use. For instance, if someone is just sitting quietly (lost in thought), his friend may ask him : "Are bhaiyya, kis firaaq men ho". And here too, the word may be pronounced more like "phiraak". It doesn't mean "search", "talaash" or "khoj" in a serious sense. The inquiry from the friend is more in the sense of "a penny for your thoughts", or "(baiThe baiThe) kya soch rahe ho".
Agar 'A' 'B' ke firaaq men hai, to matlab GHaaliban yeh hai ke 'A' 'B' se milne ya baat karne ya paane ki fikr men hai. The sense is definitely vulgar.
In the late seventies, there was a film called "Anurodh" stg. Rajesh Khanna. Anand Bakhshi (film lyricist) had written a song in that movie, which had become quite popular, the opening line being "Aate jaate KHoobsoorat aawaara saRkoN pe...". The word "firaaq" was used in the concluding part of the song :
"Kaash phir kal raat jaisee barsaat ho Aur meri us ki kaheeN mulaaqaat ho Lambi lambi raatoN men neeNd naheeN jab aati Kabhi kabhi is firaaq se Kitne haseen KH(w)aab ban jaate haiN Un men se kuchh KH(w)aab bhool jaate haiN Kuchh yaad reh jaate haiN......."
In the earlier part of the song, the lyricist had used words like "ittefaaq" and "mazaaq". It is likely, therefore, that he used "firaaq" because of the rhyming pattern. Somehow, I am inclined to think that the word was used here in its vulgar connotation only.
> On Sep 8, 12:03 pm, Jamil <dehq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > > > > firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > > > > use huaa? > > > > Bhavana
> > > Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
> > > UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst > > > reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", > > > a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche > > > into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then > > > the sentence which you have quoted, i.e.
> > > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai
> > > can be thought of as:
> > > But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation.
> > > In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original > > > sentence and needs to be understood.
> > > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. > > > What do you think?
> > > KHair-KHvaah, > > > Naseer
> > firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just > > Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of > > obsession or paagal-pan.
> > Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and > > Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). > > Does "maza" fall into this category?
> > Jamil
> janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come > across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the > connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern > development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is > masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent, > then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is > implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai?
> I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai." > for example.
> KHair-KHvaah, > Naseer
Naseer saahib,
Re: the colloquial implication of firaaq (firaak!), please see Afzal saahib's response to your post and juxtapose it against my very first post in this thread, responding to Bhavana ji, wherein I had said pretty much the same thing.
I cannot begrudge anyone the right to think less than nothing of my knowledge (such as it is) of colloquial Hindi -- I have been at the receiving end of that sort of prejudice all my life -- but one cannot but be in awe of Afzal saahib's formidable experience with spoken Urdu, and not only just any spoken Urdu, but that used in the various parts of the Indian subcontinent. It gives him the kind of authority over our language that few other ALUPers (can hope to) possess.
If I may, I think this matter should be treated as settled and closed after Afzal saahib's response.
> On Sep 8, 6:14 am, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 8, 12:03 pm, Jamil <dehq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > > > > > firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > > > > > use huaa? > > > > > Bhavana
> > > > Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai.
> > > > UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst > > > > reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", > > > > a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche > > > > into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then > > > > the sentence which you have quoted, i.e.
> > > > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai
> > > > can be thought of as:
> > > > But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation.
> > > > In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original > > > > sentence and needs to be understood.
> > > > lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. > > > > What do you think?
> > > > KHair-KHvaah, > > > > Naseer
> > > firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just > > > Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of > > > obsession or paagal-pan.
> > > Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and > > > Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). > > > Does "maza" fall into this category?
> > > Jamil
> > janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> > The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come > > across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the > > connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern > > development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is > > masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent, > > then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is > > implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai?
> > I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai." > > for example.
> > KHair-KHvaah, > > Naseer
> Naseer saahib,
> Re: the colloquial implication of firaaq (firaak!), please see Afzal > saahib's response to your post and juxtapose it against my very first > post in this thread, responding to Bhavana ji, wherein I had said > pretty much the same thing.
> I cannot begrudge anyone the right to think less than nothing of my > knowledge (such as it is) of colloquial Hindi -- I have been at the > receiving end of that sort of prejudice all my life -- but one cannot > but be in awe of Afzal saahib's formidable experience with spoken > Urdu, and not only just any spoken Urdu, but that used in the various > parts of the Indian subcontinent. It gives him the kind of authority > over our language that few other ALUPers (can hope to) possess.
> If I may, I think this matter should be treated as settled and closed > after Afzal saahib's response.
> -UVR.
UVR Sahib
The matter is indeed settled after Afzal Sahib's very illuminating post, and should have been after your first post on the subject, but please let me respond to Naseer Sahib's query as to what my source is. Fairoz-ul-lughaat gives the alternative meaning as "fikr" or "Khayaal", but I admit I had not seen it used anywhere until now, until now that is when I read Afzal Sahib's post.
> Naseer wrote: > > On Sep 8, 12:03 pm, Jamil <dehq...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote: > >>>> Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > >>>> firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > >>>> use huaa? > >>>> Bhavana > >>> Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai. > >>> UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst > >>> reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", > >>> a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche > >>> into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then > >>> the sentence which you have quoted, i.e. > >>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai > >>> can be thought of as: > >>> But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation. > >>> In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original > >>> sentence and needs to be understood. > >>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. > >>> What do you think? > >>> KHair-KHvaah, > >>> Naseer > >> firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just > >> Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of > >> obsession or paagal-pan.
> >> Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and > >> Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). > >> Does "maza" fall into this category?
> >> Jamil
> > janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> > The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come > > across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the > > connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern > > development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is > > masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent, > > then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is > > implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai?
> > I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai." > > for example.
> > KHair-KHvaah, > > Naseer
> Naseer Saheb,
> I had been meaning to say a few words in this thread but kept > putting off my response.
> While the dictionary meaning or the "nast'aleeq" meaning of > the word has been explained in the thread, I feel the sense > in the examples quoted by Bhaavna-ji is something like > "fikr" or "dhun", and that too in a slightly vulgar connota- > tion. By "vulgar", I don't mean anything obscene or risque, > but something like slang which the semi-literate folks are > wont to use. For instance, if someone is just sitting > quietly (lost in thought), his friend may ask him : "Are > bhaiyya, kis firaaq men ho". And here too, the word may be > pronounced more like "phiraak". It doesn't mean "search", > "talaash" or "khoj" in a serious sense. The inquiry from > the friend is more in the sense of "a penny for your thoughts", > or "(baiThe baiThe) kya soch rahe ho".
> Agar 'A' 'B' ke firaaq men hai, to matlab GHaaliban yeh hai ke > 'A' 'B' se milne ya baat karne ya paane ki fikr men hai. The > sense is definitely vulgar.
> In the late seventies, there was a film called "Anurodh" stg. > Rajesh Khanna. Anand Bakhshi (film lyricist) had written a > song in that movie, which had become quite popular, the opening > line being "Aate jaate KHoobsoorat aawaara saRkoN pe...". The > word "firaaq" was used in the concluding part of the song :
> "Kaash phir kal raat jaisee barsaat ho > Aur meri us ki kaheeN mulaaqaat ho > Lambi lambi raatoN men neeNd naheeN jab aati > Kabhi kabhi is firaaq se > Kitne haseen KH(w)aab ban jaate haiN > Un men se kuchh KH(w)aab bhool jaate haiN > Kuchh yaad reh jaate haiN......."
> In the earlier part of the song, the lyricist had used words > like "ittefaaq" and "mazaaq". It is likely, therefore, that > he used "firaaq" because of the rhyming pattern. Somehow, > I am inclined to think that the word was used here in its > vulgar connotation only.
> Afzal
janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
jaisaa kih UVR Sahib ne ishaarah kiyaa hai, aap ke 'uluum ke KHazaane se ham jaise log daNg rahe ba-Ghair nahiiN rah sakte awr is meN zarrah bhar shak nahiiN kih ALUP ke tavassut se aap ke saath hamaaraa vaastah ham sab ke liye baa'is-i-KHush-nasiibii hai!
aap ne baRii tafsiil se hameN bataayaa hai kih roz-marrah bol-chaal meN lafz "firaaq" kaise bartaa jaataa hai. UVR Sahib awr Jamil Sahib ne bhii is ke kam-o-besh vahii ma'ne bataa'e haiN jin kaa aap ne zikr kiyaa hai. lekin, aap kii taHriir meN mujhe ek baat kii kamii maHsuus hu'ii hai awr vuh yih hai kih Bhavanaa jii ke savaal ke mutaabiq "firaaq" mu'annis hai magar aap ke jumloN se yih vaaziH nahiiN hu'aa. unhoN ne likhaa thaa..
"Lekin vo uski firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai?"
kyaa aap is nukte par kuchh raushanii Daal sakte haiN?
Naseer wrote: > On Sep 8, 3:38 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> Naseer wrote: >>> On Sep 8, 12:03 pm, Jamil <dehq...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>> On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski >>>>>> firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise >>>>>> use huaa? >>>>>> Bhavana >>>>> Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai. >>>>> UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst >>>>> reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", >>>>> a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche >>>>> into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then >>>>> the sentence which you have quoted, i.e. >>>>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai >>>>> can be thought of as: >>>>> But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation. >>>>> In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original >>>>> sentence and needs to be understood. >>>>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. >>>>> What do you think? >>>>> KHair-KHvaah, >>>>> Naseer >>>> firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just >>>> Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of >>>> obsession or paagal-pan. >>>> Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and >>>> Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). >>>> Does "maza" fall into this category? >>>> Jamil >>> janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai. >>> The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come >>> across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the >>> connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern >>> development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is >>> masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent, >>> then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is >>> implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai? >>> I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai." >>> for example. >>> KHair-KHvaah, >>> Naseer >> Naseer Saheb,
>> I had been meaning to say a few words in this thread but kept >> putting off my response.
>> While the dictionary meaning or the "nast'aleeq" meaning of >> the word has been explained in the thread, I feel the sense >> in the examples quoted by Bhaavna-ji is something like >> "fikr" or "dhun", and that too in a slightly vulgar connota- >> tion. By "vulgar", I don't mean anything obscene or risque, >> but something like slang which the semi-literate folks are >> wont to use. For instance, if someone is just sitting >> quietly (lost in thought), his friend may ask him : "Are >> bhaiyya, kis firaaq men ho". And here too, the word may be >> pronounced more like "phiraak". It doesn't mean "search", >> "talaash" or "khoj" in a serious sense. The inquiry from >> the friend is more in the sense of "a penny for your thoughts", >> or "(baiThe baiThe) kya soch rahe ho".
>> Agar 'A' 'B' ke firaaq men hai, to matlab GHaaliban yeh hai ke >> 'A' 'B' se milne ya baat karne ya paane ki fikr men hai. The >> sense is definitely vulgar.
>> In the late seventies, there was a film called "Anurodh" stg. >> Rajesh Khanna. Anand Bakhshi (film lyricist) had written a >> song in that movie, which had become quite popular, the opening >> line being "Aate jaate KHoobsoorat aawaara saRkoN pe...". The >> word "firaaq" was used in the concluding part of the song :
>> "Kaash phir kal raat jaisee barsaat ho >> Aur meri us ki kaheeN mulaaqaat ho >> Lambi lambi raatoN men neeNd naheeN jab aati >> Kabhi kabhi is firaaq se >> Kitne haseen KH(w)aab ban jaate haiN >> Un men se kuchh KH(w)aab bhool jaate haiN >> Kuchh yaad reh jaate haiN......."
>> In the earlier part of the song, the lyricist had used words >> like "ittefaaq" and "mazaaq". It is likely, therefore, that >> he used "firaaq" because of the rhyming pattern. Somehow, >> I am inclined to think that the word was used here in its >> vulgar connotation only.
>> Afzal
> janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> jaisaa kih UVR Sahib ne ishaarah kiyaa hai, aap ke 'uluum ke KHazaane > se ham jaise log daNg rahe ba-Ghair nahiiN rah sakte awr is meN zarrah > bhar shak nahiiN kih ALUP ke tavassut se aap ke saath hamaaraa vaastah > ham sab ke liye baa'is-i-KHush-nasiibii hai!
> aap ne baRii tafsiil se hameN bataayaa hai kih roz-marrah bol-chaal > meN lafz "firaaq" kaise bartaa jaataa hai. UVR Sahib awr Jamil Sahib > ne bhii is ke kam-o-besh vahii ma'ne bataa'e haiN jin kaa aap ne zikr > kiyaa hai. lekin, aap kii taHriir meN mujhe ek baat kii kamii maHsuus > hu'ii hai awr vuh yih hai kih Bhavanaa jii ke savaal ke mutaabiq > "firaaq" mu'annis hai magar aap ke jumloN se yih vaaziH nahiiN hu'aa. > unhoN ne likhaa thaa..
> "Lekin vo uski firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai?"
> kyaa aap is nukte par kuchh raushanii Daal sakte haiN?
> KHair-KHvaah, > Naseer
Naseer Saheb,
First, I must thank you for your kind words. And this holds good for both UVR Saheb and Jamil Saheb.
As far as I know, "firaaq" (in ordinary colloquial bol~chaal) is used as a masculine word.
> Naseer wrote: > > On Sep 8, 3:38 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@invalid.invalid> wrote: > >> Naseer wrote: > >>> On Sep 8, 12:03 pm, Jamil <dehq...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>>> On Aug 30, 1:14 pm, Naseer <qures...@googlemail.com> wrote: > >>>>> On Aug 26, 6:17 am, bhavan...@gmail.com wrote: > >>>>>> Firaq ke matlab ab tak main separation ke samajhti thi. Lekin vo uski > >>>>>> firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai? yahaan khoj ke meaning mein kaise > >>>>>> use huaa? > >>>>>> Bhavana > >>>>> Bhavana jii, aadaab 'arz hai. > >>>>> UVR Sahib has already given a lengthy reply to your question. Whilst > >>>>> reading your query and UVR Sahib's reply I wondered whether "firaaq", > >>>>> a masculine word, is being translated in the public psyche > >>>>> into the feminine "judaaii" or "duurii" both meaning seperation.Then > >>>>> the sentence which you have quoted, i.e. > >>>>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai > >>>>> can be thought of as: > >>>>> But he/she is (engrossed/engulfed) in her/his seperation. > >>>>> In other words, a word like "engrossed" is missing from the original > >>>>> sentence and needs to be understood. > >>>>> lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN [gum-sum/pareshaaN-Haal/paagal etc] hai. > >>>>> What do you think? > >>>>> KHair-KHvaah, > >>>>> Naseer > >>>> firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just > >>>> Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of > >>>> obsession or paagal-pan. > >>>> Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and > >>>> Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). > >>>> Does "maza" fall into this category? > >>>> Jamil > >>> janaab-i-Jamil Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai. > >>> The dictionary meaning of "firaaq" is seperation. I have not come > >>> across this word to mean "KHayaal" in a literary context. I think the > >>> connotation Bhavana jii is alluding to is perhaps a modern > >>> development(?). What is your "source" for "KHyaal" which itself is > >>> masculine. If "firaaq" indeed also means "KHayaal" or its equivalent, > >>> then , when one says "lekin vuh us kii firaaq meN hai", one is > >>> implying "lekin vuh us kii soch meN hai". aap kaa kyaa KHyaal hai? > >>> I always thought "mazah" was masculine. "aam kaa mazah apnaa hii hai." > >>> for example. > >>> KHair-KHvaah, > >>> Naseer > >> Naseer Saheb,
> >> I had been meaning to say a few words in this thread but kept > >> putting off my response.
> >> While the dictionary meaning or the "nast'aleeq" meaning of > >> the word has been explained in the thread, I feel the sense > >> in the examples quoted by Bhaavna-ji is something like > >> "fikr" or "dhun", and that too in a slightly vulgar connota- > >> tion. By "vulgar", I don't mean anything obscene or risque, > >> but something like slang which the semi-literate folks are > >> wont to use. For instance, if someone is just sitting > >> quietly (lost in thought), his friend may ask him : "Are > >> bhaiyya, kis firaaq men ho". And here too, the word may be > >> pronounced more like "phiraak". It doesn't mean "search", > >> "talaash" or "khoj" in a serious sense. The inquiry from > >> the friend is more in the sense of "a penny for your thoughts", > >> or "(baiThe baiThe) kya soch rahe ho".
> >> Agar 'A' 'B' ke firaaq men hai, to matlab GHaaliban yeh hai ke > >> 'A' 'B' se milne ya baat karne ya paane ki fikr men hai. The > >> sense is definitely vulgar.
> >> In the late seventies, there was a film called "Anurodh" stg. > >> Rajesh Khanna. Anand Bakhshi (film lyricist) had written a > >> song in that movie, which had become quite popular, the opening > >> line being "Aate jaate KHoobsoorat aawaara saRkoN pe...". The > >> word "firaaq" was used in the concluding part of the song :
> >> "Kaash phir kal raat jaisee barsaat ho > >> Aur meri us ki kaheeN mulaaqaat ho > >> Lambi lambi raatoN men neeNd naheeN jab aati > >> Kabhi kabhi is firaaq se > >> Kitne haseen KH(w)aab ban jaate haiN > >> Un men se kuchh KH(w)aab bhool jaate haiN > >> Kuchh yaad reh jaate haiN......."
> >> In the earlier part of the song, the lyricist had used words > >> like "ittefaaq" and "mazaaq". It is likely, therefore, that > >> he used "firaaq" because of the rhyming pattern. Somehow, > >> I am inclined to think that the word was used here in its > >> vulgar connotation only.
> >> Afzal
> > janaab-i-Afzal Sahib, aadaab 'arz hai.
> > jaisaa kih UVR Sahib ne ishaarah kiyaa hai, aap ke 'uluum ke KHazaane > > se ham jaise log daNg rahe ba-Ghair nahiiN rah sakte awr is meN zarrah > > bhar shak nahiiN kih ALUP ke tavassut se aap ke saath hamaaraa vaastah > > ham sab ke liye baa'is-i-KHush-nasiibii hai!
> > aap ne baRii tafsiil se hameN bataayaa hai kih roz-marrah bol-chaal > > meN lafz "firaaq" kaise bartaa jaataa hai. UVR Sahib awr Jamil Sahib > > ne bhii is ke kam-o-besh vahii ma'ne bataa'e haiN jin kaa aap ne zikr > > kiyaa hai. lekin, aap kii taHriir meN mujhe ek baat kii kamii maHsuus > > hu'ii hai awr vuh yih hai kih Bhavanaa jii ke savaal ke mutaabiq > > "firaaq" mu'annis hai magar aap ke jumloN se yih vaaziH nahiiN hu'aa. > > unhoN ne likhaa thaa..
> > "Lekin vo uski firaq mein hai ka kya matlab hai?"
> > kyaa aap is nukte par kuchh raushanii Daal sakte haiN?
> > KHair-KHvaah, > > Naseer
> Naseer Saheb,
> First, I must thank you for your kind words. And this holds > good for both UVR Saheb and Jamil Saheb.
> As far as I know, "firaaq" (in ordinary colloquial bol~chaal) > is used as a masculine word.
> Afzal
Afzal saahib,
I think that when employed in the sense of "dhun, soch, Khayaal" etc, the word is also employed as if it were feminine in gender. I have supplied an example from the pen of Prasoon Joshi in my reply to Bhavana ji: kyooN khoye khoye chaand *ki* firaaq meN ,etc.
For those who may not know (i.e., NOT Afzal saahib), Mr. Joshi is a lyricist in the Gulzar mould (at least in terms of the kind of language and metaphors he uses), who has recently received much acclaim for his work in Hindi films.
Jamil Sahib wrote: > > > firaq has two meanings: "separation" as has been pointed out, and just > > > Khayaal or "thought" - as far as I know, without connotation of > > > obsession or paagal-pan.
> > > Also it is masculine. Some words do have different genders in Urdu and > > > Hindi. An example is charcha (feminine in Hindi, masculine in Urdu). > > > Does "maza" fall into this category? UVR Sahib wrote: > I think that when employed in the sense of "dhun, soch, Khayaal" etc, > the word is also employed as if it were feminine in gender. I have > supplied an example from the pen of Prasoon Joshi in my reply to > Bhavana ji: kyooN khoye khoye chaand *ki* firaaq meN ,etc. > For those who may not know (i.e., NOT Afzal saahib), Mr. Joshi is a > lyricist in the Gulzar mould (at least in terms of the kind of > language and metaphors he uses), who has recently received much > acclaim for his work in Hindi films. > but be in awe of Afzal saahib's formidable experience with spoken > Urdu, and not only just any spoken Urdu, but that used in the various > parts of the Indian subcontinent. It gives him the kind of authority > over our language that few other ALUPers (can hope to) possess.
> If I may, I think this matter should be treated as settled and closed > after Afzal saahib's response. Afzal Sahib wrote: > As far as I know, "firaaq" (in ordinary colloquial bol~chaal) > is used as a masculine word.
After reading Afzal Sahib's latest post I can concur with you that the matter is settled and closed.
> Ek aur sawaal poochhnaa chaahti hoon: ye Bhavanaji kaun hain? Main to > sirf Bhavana hoon. ALUP ki class mein sirf ek taalib ilm. :)
> Shukriya.
> Bhavana
Bhavana-ji,
"ALUP ki class" kaa yahi taur-tareeqa hai k yahaaN har kisi ko apne naam par shri/janaab/mohtaram/... ki "seeNg" yaa jii/saahib/ saahibaa/... ki "pooNchh" lagwaani hi paRti hai. aur kabhi donoN.
>> Ek aur sawaal poochhnaa chaahti hoon: ye Bhavanaji kaun hain? Main to >> sirf Bhavana hoon. ALUP ki class mein sirf ek taalib ilm. :)
>> Shukriya.
>> Bhavana
> Bhavana-ji,
> "ALUP ki class" kaa yahi taur-tareeqa hai k yahaaN har kisi ko apne > naam par shri/janaab/mohtaram/... ki "seeNg" yaa jii/saahib/ > saahibaa/... ki "pooNchh" lagwaani hi paRti hai. aur kabhi donoN.
> -UVR.
I am sure Naseer Saheb will be able to find (and post) the Urdu/Faarsi equivalents of these two words which seem to be "lese ALUP".
