Latro vs Venator?

[David / Amicus]

I read that hunter is one of the definitions of "latro".


Could someone tell me the difference between latro and venator?

[Johannes Patruus]

On 15/09/2012 02:53, David / Amicus wrote:
> I read that hunter is one of the definitions of "latro".
>
> Could someone tell me the difference between latro and venator?

The sole use of 'latro' to mean hunter recorded by L&S is in Aeneid 12:7,
for which Williams' note reads: "latronis - 'the huntsman', an unusual
sense of the word, which normally means 'brigand'."

Patruus

[Ed Cryer]

In that Vergil passage it probably meant "brigand". It's looking at the
huntsman from the lion's point of view as it (the lion) shakes a spear
from its side.

Ed

[David / Amicus]

Thank-you!

[David / Amicus]

I read too that "latro" also means chessman.

That would be the pieces on the board rather than the person who is
playing?

What then would be word for a chess player?

[Johannes Patruus]

On 16/09/2012 04:04, David / Amicus wrote:
> I read too that "latro" also means chessman.
>
> That would be the pieces on the board rather than the person who is
> playing?

Yes.

> What then would be word for a chess player?

Perhaps "scaccis lusor" or "latrunculis lusor" (conceivably condensable to
scaccilusor & latruculilusor, both unattested).
cf. -
http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scacci
http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrunculi

Patruus

[David / Amicus]

Thanks Patruus

[B. T. Raven]

Die Sun Sep 16 2012 14:34:38 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Ami...@webtv.net (David / Amicus) scripsit:

> Thanks Patruus
>


Some more on chess, wherein occurs the word latruncularius, which could
be adapted for use as "chessplayer."
I don't think I've posted this here before but I could be wrong.
Bonus question at end.

"Latrunculōrum lūdus explicātur.

Tabula, quā super latrōnēs certant, abacus, alveus, alveolus, mēnsa
lūsōria dīcitur. Distinguitur sexāgintā quatuor plagulīs quadrātīs
aequālibus, quae porrō plagulae, areolae item, carcerēs, sēpta, mandrae,
vallī et capsī nōminantur. Colōre albō pars dīmidia tum plagulārum tum
calculōrum, altera aequālis pars nigrō sēcernitur. Sīc autem albae
nigraeque areolae intermiscentur, ut versicolōrī seriē nigram alba,
albam nigra semper excipiat. Octōnī ordinēs sīve līneae mēnsam lūsōriam,
octōnī carcerēs līneam explent. Alternīs tessellīs distincta tabula ipsa
etiam mīlitārem jactat orīginem. Quid enim carcerēs illī referunt, nisi
quadrātās phalangēs modicīs intervallīs seriātim nexās in aciēī
dispositiōne vel locātiōne castrōrum? Ā quadrātā certē figūrā Phalangēs
illae Ītalīs vocantur "Squadroni". Atque hinc percipiēs quemadmodum
illūstrēs aliquot familiae tabulam latrunculāriam in scūtīs gentīlītiīs
appingant. Virtūtis nīmīrum suae testimōnium illud et tesseram posterīs
relīquērunt Māiōrēs ōlim nātū, quōrum perītia in collocātiōne ordinum
mīlitārium mīrandum in modum ēminuit. Vidē Titulum "Quartieria", quā
populārī vōce appellantur castrēnsia mīlitum tuguria (ital. "quartieri"
mīlitārī).

Geminae utrinque dīrēctae aciēs ad extrēmās duās abacī līneās, adversīs
frontibus et eiusdem colōris collēctō hinc inde agmine īnstruuntur.
Postrēmam occupant Rēx, Rēgīna sīve Amāzon, satellitēs vel signiferī
duo, totidem equitēs et geminī sublātīs turribus elephantī. In līneā hīs
proximā peditēs, quasi anteambulōnēs et rōrāriī suās statiōnēs tuentur.
Omnibus per eadem spatia iter est, sed admodum dīversa praescrīptiōne ac
lēge prōcēdendī feriendīque. Peditēs ad ūnam duntaxat eamque semper
rēctam et ā fronte positam mandram prōferunt pedem. Licet tamen prīmum
ēgressīs ad duōs carcerēs trānsilīre. Recēdere ac referre pedem peditī
nefās. Rēctā et ā fronte est perpetuō commigrandum, certō ūnīus occupātī
capsī dīmēnsū. Quod sī pedēs hostem feriat, tunc per oblīquam līneam dat
impetum, et in captī hostis locum succēdit. At sī hōrum quispiam astū et
virtūte tam impigrē prōcēdendō victōriam urgeat, ut ad oppositae aciēī
extrēmam līneam perveniat, sī ordinis suī Rēgīna capta vel quōmodōlibet
bellō functa dēcesserit, nova ipse Amāzonis seu Rēgīnae, audāciae
fēlīcis praemium, sūmit īnsignia; sīn vērō superstes sit in suā aciē
rēgīna, optiōnem habēbit equitis, signiferī vel turrigerī elephantis
expunctī mūnus et dignitātem assūmendī. Variant tamen in hāc parte lūdī
lēgēs apud lūsōrēs; contenduntque aliī, ut quotquot ē peditum numerō
ultimae līneae mandrīs strēnuō prōcursū potiuntur, integrum sit omnibus
indiscrīminātim, etiam imperātrīce superstite, novae ducis praefectūram
suscipere.

Alveī lūsōriī extrēmōs angulōs obtinent, suōrumque ordinum latera
prōtegunt, bellātōrēs ex elephantōrum turribus dīmicantēs. Integrum
illīs est ā fronte, ā tergō, per latera excurrere. Id vērō, sī peditēs
excipiās, omnibus est commūne calculīs. Singulīs elephantī passibus
quantumlibet spatium sēmitae līneālis, etiam ūniversum, possunt
cōnficere; dummodō expedīta sit via. Nam interjectōs latrōnēs
trānsmittere et ultrā tendere, exceptō equite, nēminī licet. Rēctō autem
semper quadrātōque feruntur trāmite. Vīs et excursiōnēs elephantōrum in
hōc lūdō ingēns mōmentum afferunt. Praecipuum vērō locum habent et
vīrium experīmentum faciunt sub fīnem certāminis. Ubi enim, aliīs
dējectīs calculīs, inter paucōs rēs agitur, mājor illīs quāquāversum
prōcurrendī lībertās, et ad extrēmās incitās coarctandī rēgem. Nam sub
initium pugnae inter vēlitēs et leviōris armātūrae mīlitēs mārs fervet;
minimusque ibi elephantīs locus, utpote praegravī pressīs pondere
turrium et armātōrum...

Proximī elephantīs equitēs adjacent. Hōrum prōgressus ea lēx et norma
praecipitur, ut, ūnō trājectō carcere, per distortum saltum in alterō
cōnsistant. A nigrī colōris carcere in album, albō in nigrum
trānsmigrant. Latrōnēs quōscunque interpositōs, sīve sociī sint sīve
hostēs, ēditō saltū trānsiliunt līberē. Vīs equitum ūsusque praecipuus
est in pugnārum initiīs. Equidem in cōnfertam aciem lātē perniciem
īnferunt, prōterunt, prōculcantque peditēs obviōs, adversamque aciem
carptim imminuunt. Ingēns quippe illīs commodum et nocendī opportūnitās
ab immūnī saltū super ipsa capita obstantium calculōrum. Formīdandī
porrō magis sunt, quoniam nōn per ūnam tantum certamque grassantur
līneam; in gyrum potentēs sunt; actīque per tabulae circuitum, ūniversum
agmen obnoxium habent. Sub lūdī fīnem equitēs minus timentur. Rarēscente
nīmīrum agmine relanguent vīrēs, quae in hostium duntaxat cōpiā
cōnspiciuntur. Equōrum ūsus lūdentium sagācitātem vel imperītiam
continuō prōdit. Sī compendiōsa et assultuī opportūna spatia occupant,
incrēdibile ēmolumentum apportant; inīquiōre locō dispositīs resīdunt
vīrēs, animī concidunt, jūbīsque dēmissīs dēfluunt cervīcēs inglōriae.
Rēgis Rēgīnaeque latus tuentur adstīpantque satellitēs vel signiferī,
Ītalīs *Delfini, alfieri, alifili*. Hōrum alter albō, nigrō alter calle
perpetuō commigrat. Nōn rēctā prōcēdunt, ut elephantēs; sed per oblīquam
sēmitam et trānsversīs itineribus. Caeterum ā carceribus ad mētam per
suam orbitam līberē excurrunt, cum potestāte referendī gradum,
sistendīque ad arbitrium, vel ubi rēs et ratiō postulat lūdī, modō nōn
trānsiliant saltuātim latrunculōs interpositōs. Sī hostem feriunt,
haerent in vēstīgiō, et in latrōnīs ējectī sēde subsistunt. Ē mediīs
areolīs diadēmata fronte paulō reliquīs ēditiōrēs assurgunt rēx et rēgīna.

Et rēgīnae quidem potestās, rōbur et amplitūdō mīrum quantum in hōc lūdō
excellit polletque. Licet illī ā fronte per rēctam līneam, quemadmodum
elephantēs, licet pariter per oblīquam, ut vexilliferī faciunt, prōferrī
et quam lātissimē exspatiārī. Omnium dēnique calculōrum mōtū et pugnandī
lēge perfruitur: exceptō equōrum flexuōsō distortōque saltū, quippe quī
nec satis decōrus honestae Rēgnātrīcī. Sī ūniversās huius vīrēs opēsque
reputēs, dīmidium rōboris tōtīus exercitūs, et eō amplius illīs
continērī nōn īnfitiāberis... Incessum porrō gravem omnium ferē nātiōnum
Rēgibus congruere vix quisquam ignōrat. Jam vērō latrunculōrum rēgī
semel est integrum ad extrēmum abacī angulum firmiōris custōdiae gratiā
sēcēdere, permūtātā statiōne cum elephantō. Id Ītalī dīcimus arroccāre,
ab īnfimae latīnitātis vōce rocca, quae praesidium est, turris, vel
quodlibet in rūpe vel clīvō mūnīmentum. Id ipsum tamen nōn temerē, sed
certīs trānsigitur cautiōnibus. Ad trēs extrēmās, plagulās cōnfugere
Rēgī nōn licet, nisi iter ab hostīlī aggressiōne vacuum nancīscātur. Ex
tribus peditibus, quī ante rēgem sēductum īnstructī mīlitant, prōmovēre
hīc quidem quem maximē libuerit, potest; vērum nē hosticīs lapillīs
incommodet omnīnō caveat. Turris trālātitia ubivīs potest cōnsistere,
dummodō Rēgiam mandram nōn trānsiliat, et adversīs calculīs molestiam
nōn facessat. Praerogātīvā trajectūs ad turrim nōn perfruitur locōmōtus
Imperātor, aut intentātō jaculō lacessitus. Quod sī ad tegendum rēgem
accurrant mīlitēs, suaque prō ejusdem salūte capita interpōnant, fās
illī et jūs fuerit, prō arbitrātū suō ad elephantem praesidiī causā
concēdere. Sciō isthaec alicubi minus religiōsē servārī. Vērum ego forī
latrunculāriī duodecim, ut sīc dixerim, ipsās tabulās, nōn jūra
mūnicipālia persequor. Scopus hujus lūdī est, sīc rēgem premere et in
arctum adigere, ut nūlla illī ad ēvādendum spēs aut facultās sit
reliqua. Id autem perficitur, cum adversārius exsertō gladiō ictum
intentāns Rēgem prōvocat: ille vērō, obsēptīs undique itineribus, nec
accersendī suōrum auxilia, nec in tūtam statiōnem discēdendī cōpiam
habet. Tunc enimvērō rēx bellō captus in hostium manūs et potestātem
trānsīre crēditur. Atque id Latīnīs dīcitur *calculus incitus*; Ītalīs
scaccomatto. Dēmum latrunculīs certantēs vel captīvitāte rēgis vel
aequātā pugnā lūdō colophōnem impōnunt. Causae aequandī cōnflictūs cum
aliīs calculōrum lūdīs ferē conveniunt. Latrōnum tamen pecūliāris est
lūdī exitus, cum lapillī quidem nūllī sunt reliquī, vel sīquī reliquī
sunt, cōnfīxī haerent et mōtūs expertēs: ipse vērō rēx, cui commigrandī
onus incumbit, nequit sē commovēre, hostīlī calculō undique obsidente
aditūs, nec tamen ictum interminante. Id vērō ā standō vel subsistendō
dīcitur *stallo*."

(CAROLUS DE AQUĪNO S. J. (1654-1737): rhētor in Collēgiō, Rōmānō,
latīnitātis
auctor flōrentissimus; "Lexicon Mīlitāre": sub vōce "Latrunculī").

What's this mean?: Praerogātīvā trajectūs ad turrim nōn perfruitur
locōmōtus Imperātor, aut intentātō jaculō lacessitus.

[Ed Cryer]

The first bit is easy enough.
The king doesn't have the right to castle once moved.

These are modern situations when castling isn't allowed;
Your king has been moved earlier in the game.
The rook that castles has been moved earlier in the game.
There are pieces standing between your king and rook.
The king is in check.
The king moves through a square that is attacked by a piece of
the opponent.
The king would be in check after castling.

"intentātō jaculō lacessitus" appears to mean "dogged by a threatened
check"; which might cover 4, 5 & 6 above.

Ed

[B. T. Raven]

Die Tue Sep 18 2012 07:36:32 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) Ed Cryer
<e...@somewhere.in.the.uk> scripsit:

Correctomundo! I think case 5 (maybe 6 also) is covered rather by:

Ad trēs extrēmās plagulās cōnfugere Rēgī nōn licet, nisi iter ab hostīlī
aggressiōne vacuum nancīscātur.

To cover case 6 I think a codicillus is needed after ...aut intentātō
jaculō lacessitus... antea posteaque. The sentence "Sciō isthaec alicubi

minus religiōsē servārī. Vērum ego forī latrunculāriī duodecim, ut sīc

dixerim, ipsās tabulās, nōn jūra mūnicipālia persequor." seems to
indicate that there is not universal agreement about some of the rules.

Off topic but very interesting is the study by Yalom, _The Birth of the
Chess Queen_ (no girls allowed on the Muslim board!):

http://www.harpercollins.com/browseinside/index.aspx?isbn13=9780060090654

or

http://tinyurl.com/8jbqq47

Eduardus

[Ed Cryer]

You can see how the modern rules are a precision mechanism of earlier
muddled language.

I'm getting to quite admire the more recent interpretations of history
by liberated women. Not that I agree, of course, but they provide
sometimes quite staggering evidence that what rules in human affairs is
not reason and logic but what David Hume called "utility".

The best I've come across so far is the woman who firmly believes that
the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is not an allegory at all; but a
historical record of real events, in which A was a gardener to a mighty
prince (changed to God), E his wife.
Women might be good at multi-tasking but they're not so good at
deductive reasoning.

Ed

P.S. There's a game of Bobby Fischer when he was about 12; in which he
made a Queen sacrifice that led to a win for him, but only umpteen moves
onward.

[David / Amicus]

<<The best I've come across so far is the woman who firmly believes that
the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is not an allegory at all; but a
historical record of real events, in which A was a gardener to a mighty
prince (changed to God), E his wife.>>

Who is the woman? Is there a book?

[Ed Cryer]

I saw it on a recent BBC TV Bible studies series. "Bible's Buried
Secrets". All episodes are on Youtube; and this, I think, is the
relevant one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ9cvYB7Tes

The woman presenting it has good credentials; Dr Francesca
Stavrakopoulou, professor at an English university;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesca_Stavrakopoulou

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

And this is the Fischer chess game;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_of_the_Century_%28chess%29

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

There's one here that comes a close second; Miranda Aldhouse-Green,
Professor of Archaeology at Cardiff University. She claims that Queen
Boudicca was a Druid.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/iot#playepisode1

Ed

[John W Kennedy]

On 2012-09-18 21:21:02 +0000, Ed Cryer said:
> The best I've come across so far is the woman who firmly believes that
> the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is not an allegory at all; but a
> historical record of real events, in which A was a gardener to a mighty
> prince (changed to God), E his wife.

"Did they catch the elephant again?"

"Did who?"

"The anthropologists."

"Oh, my dear boy, you are misunderstanding. This happened long before
there were any anthropologists."

"Then how do they know?"

"Well, as to that.... I see that you have a very crude notion of how
science actually works."

--
John W Kennedy
"Sweet, was Christ crucified to create this chat?"
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"

[Ed Cryer]

John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 2012-09-18 21:21:02 +0000, Ed Cryer said:
>> The best I've come across so far is the woman who firmly believes that
>> the story of Adam and Eve in Eden is not an allegory at all; but a
>> historical record of real events, in which A was a gardener to a
>> mighty prince (changed to God), E his wife.
>
> "Did they catch the elephant again?"
>
> "Did who?"
>
> "The anthropologists."
>
> "Oh, my dear boy, you are misunderstanding. This happened long before
> there were any anthropologists."
>
> "Then how do they know?"
>
> "Well, as to that.... I see that you have a very crude notion of how
> science actually works."
>

Orthodox scientific method

1. Study the subject well, posit an explanatory hypothesis.
2. Test the hypothesis against conflicting theories.
3. Does it cover the known facts? Does it have wider ambit than other
theories?
4. Make sure it makes a testable prediction; which could possibly
falsify it.
5. Publish it; await comments of others in the field; await results of
others repeating your experimental data.
6. Await confirmation of major prediction (as with gravity bending light
for Relativity Theory).
7. Get Nobel Prize.

New and amended version.

1. Dream up a theory and publish it.

Ed