North & Hillard Exercises 59 [A] & 60 [B]
Daniel Hoehr
Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.
==================================================
Exercise 59 [A].
PARTITIVE GENITIVE.
Britannorum fortissimi = bravest of/among the Britons.
Nimis/Parum/Satis/Aliquid virtutis =
Too much/too little/enough/some courage
1. I know that they waste too much time
2. He had too little confidence in himself.
3. You both had sufficient boldness.
4. They do this that the State may not suffer any^1 loss.
5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
6. Some of the citizens wished to surrender, others to resist.
7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world still keeps
some of its old strength.
8. Most of you^2 have shown more courage than wisdom.
9. I think there is some good in all men.
10. Where in the world do you live?
____________________________________________________
^1 quid.
^2 Nos has two genitives -- nostrum and nostri ; vos has vestrum and
vestri. Use the forms in -um for Partitive Genitive, the forms in -i
for the Objective Genitive.
Vocabulary:
waste time, tempus tero, -ere, -trivi, tritum.
confidence, fiducia.
too much, nimis, adv.; nimius, adj.
too little, very little, parum, adv.
boldness, audacia.
loss, detrimentum.
surrender (intrans.), se tradere, dedere ; in deditionem venire.
strength, robur, -oris, n.
still, adhuc.
keep, conservo, I.
old (of former times), antiquus.
(living or lasting long), vetus, -eris.
most, plerique.
show (of qualities), praesto, -stare, -stiti.
where in the world, ubi genitum.
live (=dwell), habito, I.
Exercise 60 [B].
1. Most of our old friends are dead, and some have ceased to be friends.
2. Caesar has always been considered the greatest of the Romans.
3. The Gauls have too much eloquence and too little wisdom.
4. They said that the Helvetii were the greatest nation in the whole
of Gaul.
5. So great a storm arose, that the greater part of the ships were lost.
6. Some of us have lost all hope.
7. You, who have some love for your country, ought not to do this.
8. He was the first to march^1 into this part of the country.
9. I do not consider Crassus the greatest man in our country.
10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
_________________________________________________
^1 He, the first (adj.), marched. So "he left last" is ultimus abiit.
Vocabulary:
eloquence, eloquentia.
nation, gens, gentis, f.
lose, amitto.
hope, spes, f., 5.
country (native land), patria.
(district), regio, fines.
(land), terra.
(opp. to town), rus).
send to help, submitto, acc. and dat.;
e.g. copias Caesari submittit.
==================================================
Hoc conferte cum editione typographica.
Johannes Patruus
"Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:2mfcrkF...@uni-berlin.de...
> M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
> Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
> Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
>
> Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.
> ==================================================
PRELIMINARY NOTES
(1) Grammar references: A&G 346; G&L 367-372.
(2) A tasteful example from the BA Key (37:1) -
In hoc rege (OR principe) nihil sordidi erat, nihil turpe, nihil humile;
parum doctrinae, ingenii satis; rerum peritiae aliquantum, eloquentiae non
nihil; multum prudentiae, probitatis plurimum ac constantiae.
There was nothing mean in this sovereign, nothing base, nothing degrading;
little learning (but) fair ability, some experience of life and a dash of
eloquence, much good sense, abundance of honesty and strength of mind.
(3) The problem with the partitive genitive is knowing whether, in any
particular circumstance, it's (a) an option, (b) the only option, or (c)
verboten, and things are not helped when the English is ambiguous (e.g.
"many soldiers" could be "multi milites" or "multi militum" (G&L 370)
according to sense), or downright misleading (as in "all of us", etc. -
A&G 346e).
(4) To translate "most", the Key uses "plerique" in 59:8 but "plurimi" in
60:1, the latter being used partitively. The footnote to 59:8 is clearly
enticing us to use "plerique" partitively as well - "plerique vestrum" -
as in Cicero's handy phrase:
"sicuti plerique vestrum sciunt" (http://tinyurl.com/2q568 - 5th line)
"as most of you are aware" (Yonge),
yet the Key unaccountably goes for "vos plerique", although for "most of
the leaders" in Exercise 63 it has "plerique ducum". (Please excuse me a
moment while I step outside for a quiet scream!) If you want to research
this in L&S, plerique is s.v. plerusque, and plurimi s.v. multus (section
III).
(5) "You"/"your" is singular in 59:10 & 69:10, plural elsewhere.
(6) "Had"/"have" in 59:2, 59:3 & 60:3 is expressed by "esse" + dative of
possession, but in 60:7 by "habeo".
(7) Notwithstanding the misleading prepositions by which they are followed
in English, the Latin equivalent of "greatest" in 59:7, 60:4 & 60:9
governs the partitive genitive (cf. A&G 346.a.2), while "love" in 60:7
governs the objective genitive (cf. A&G 348).
(8) 59:2 The Key's four-word answer lacks any explicit representation of
the phrase "in himself".
(9) 59:4 - "suffer" - the Key uses the verb "capio" (just as in English
one can "take" a loss). "State" = "respublica".
(10) 59:7 - For "country" the Key uses "civitas", and for "still" it
disdains "adhuc" in Vocab 59 in favour of "etiamnunc".
(11) 59:9 - To express the inherence of a personal quality ("some good"
expressed partitively as "something of good"), the Key here uses the verb
"insum" with the dative, as exemplified by Sallust:
Huic homini non minor vanitas inerat quam audacia. (Cat.23)
In this person there was not less levity than impudence. (Watson)
(12) 60:1 - "old" in the sense of "of former times" (Vocab 59).
(13) In Exercise 60, the Key renders:
(a) "some" by "nonnulli" in #1, but "aliquot" in #6.
(b) "consider" by "habeo" in #2, but "existimo" in #9.
(14) Nothing could be clearer than that N&H were relying on the live
classroom teacher to resolve the intractable difficulties with which these
nightmare exercises abound. Bereft of so enviable an adjutant, we are
doomed for ever to wallow in the mire.
Wallowingly,
Johannes
Johannes Patruus
"Johannes Patruus" <JPat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2mfdliF...@uni-berlin.de...
> PRELIMINARY NOTES
>
> (5) "You"/"your" is singular in 59:10 & 69:10, plural elsewhere.
59:10 & 60:10.
> > Exercise 59 [A].
> > 3. You both had sufficient boldness.
You both HAVE ...
Johannes
Klaus Scholl
> Britannorum fortissimi = bravest of/among the Britons.
> Nimis/Parum/Satis/Aliquid virtutis =
> Too much/too little/enough/some courage
>
> 1. I know that they waste too much time
Scio, ut nimis Temporis consumant.
> 2. He had too little confidence in himself.
Parum Fiduciae in se habebat.
> 3. You both had sufficient boldness.
Uterque Vestrûm satis Audaciae habebant.
> 4. They do this that the State may not suffer any^1 loss.
Hoc faciunt, ne Res publica quid Damni accipiat.
> 5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
Periverunt mille nostrorum optimorum Militûm.
> 6. Some of the citizens wished to surrender, others to resist.
Alii Civûm se tradere volebant, alii resistere.
> 7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world still keeps
> some of its old strength.
Civitas nostra, quae olim maxima Mundi erat, etiamnunc obtinet
aliquid pristinae Potentiae.
> 8. Most of you^2 have shown more courage than wisdom.
Plerique Nostrûm plus Virtutis ostenderunt, quam Sapientiae.
> 9. I think there is some good in all men.
Puto aliquid Boni omnis Hominibus inesse.
> 10. Where in the world do you live?
Ubi Terrarum habitas?
A Greet from the Klaus.
Johannes Patruus
"Klaus Scholl" <sch...@sensualium.cjb.net> wrote in message
news:cdu6nm$59s$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
> The first Part i translate now.
Exercise 59
> > 1. I know that they waste too much time
> Scio, ut nimis Temporis consumant.
It being one of the 'verba sentiendi', one would expect "scio" to take the
accusative + infinitive construction.
> > 5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
> Periverunt mille nostrorum optimorum Militűm.
How many thousand?
> > 6. Some of the citizens wished to surrender, others to resist.
> Alii Civűm se tradere volebant, alii resistere.
civium.
> > 7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world still keeps
> > some of its old strength.
> Civitas nostra, quae olim maxima Mundi erat, etiamnunc obtinet
> aliquid pristinae Potentiae.
As I understand it, "mundus" (at least in classical Latin) refers
primarily to the whole universe, whereas "world" in this context maps
better to "orbis terrarum".
I'll post the Key's translations next Wednesday.
> A Greet from the Klaus.
A Double-Greet from the Uncle.
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
> "Klaus Scholl" <sch...@sensualium.cjb.net> wrote in message
> news:cdu6nm$59s$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
>
>>The first Part i translate now.
Is it Wednesday already? Tempus fugit....
<snip material I shall read after I've posted my own answers>
> I'll post the Key's translations next Wednesday.
Oh, joy! It's not Wednesday. I really thought I'd missed a few days.
>>A Greet from the Klaus.
>
> A Double-Greet from the Uncle.
A Triple-Greet from the little Sunshine
> Johannes
DH
Edward Casey
"Klaus Scholl" <sch...@sensualium.cjb.net> wrote in message
news:cdu6nm$59s$06$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> > Britannorum fortissimi = bravest of/among the Britons.
> > Nimis/Parum/Satis/Aliquid virtutis =
> > Too much/too little/enough/some courage
> >
> > 1. I know that they waste too much time
> Scio, ut nimis Temporis consumant.
>
waste time as a result of your knowing.
Scio eos nimium temporis terere (consumere,etc)
> > 2. He had too little confidence in himself.
> Parum Fiduciae in se habebat.
>
> > 3. You both had sufficient boldness.
> Uterque Vestrûm satis Audaciae habebant.
>
> > 4. They do this that the State may not suffer any^1 loss.
> Hoc faciunt, ne Res publica quid Damni accipiat.
>
> > 5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
> Periverunt mille nostrorum optimorum Militûm.
Vestrûm above is ok as a contraction of vestrorum but militum is not short
for anything.
>
> > 6. Some of the citizens wished to surrender, others to resist.
> Alii Civûm se tradere volebant, alii resistere.
Ditto here in civium.
>
> > 7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world still keeps
> > some of its old strength.
> Civitas nostra, quae olim maxima Mundi erat, etiamnunc obtinet
> aliquid pristinae Potentiae.
>
> > 8. Most of you^2 have shown more courage than wisdom.
> Plerique Nostrûm plus Virtutis ostenderunt, quam Sapientiae.
You have "most of us."
>
> > 9. I think there is some good in all men.
> Puto aliquid Boni omnis Hominibus inesse.
>
> > 10. Where in the world do you live?
> Ubi Terrarum habitas?
I think the key will say "ubi gentium." I think I read "ubi balaenarum"
somewhere but maybe I wrote it and/or transferred it from Spanish.
Rolleston
Exercise 59 [A].
1. I know that they waste too much time
Scio eos nimis temporis terere.
Scio eos nimium tempus terere.
(Is "nimium tempus" acceptable?)
2. He had too little confidence in himself.
Ei fiduciae parum erat.
3. You both have sufficient boldness.
Ambobus vobis satis audaciae est.
Utroque vestrum satis audaciae est.
(Not very sure about "ambobus".)
4. They do this that the State may not suffer any loss.
Hoc faciunt ne quid detrimenti respublica patiatur.
5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
Optimorum nostrorum militum tria millia perierunt.
6. Some of the citizens wished to surrender, others to resist.
Alii civium se tradere alii resistere volebant.
7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world
still keeps some of its old strength.
Nostra civitas, quae quondam orbis terrarum maxima erat,
adhuc (etiamnunc) antiqui aliquid roboris conservat.
8. Most of you have shown more courage than wisdom.
Vos plerique plus virtutis quam sapientiae praestitistis.
9. I think there is some good in all men.
Aliquid boni omnibus viribus inesse habeo.
10. Where in the world do you live?
Ubi gentium habitas?
Exercise 60 [B].
1. Most of our old friends are dead,
and some have ceased to be friends.
Plurimi antiquorum amicorum mortui sunt,
et nonnulli amici esse cessaverunt.
2. Caesar has always been considered the greatest of the Romans.
Semper Caesar maximus romanorum esse habitus est.
3. The Gauls have too much eloquence and too little wisdom.
Gallis nimis eloquantiae parum sapientiae est.
4. They said that the Helvetii were the greatest
nation in the whole of Gaul.
Dixerunt helvetiam gentem Galliae maximam esse.
5. So great a storm arose,
that the greater part of the ships were lost.
Tanta tempestas coorta est
ut plerumque navium amissum est.
6. Some of us have lost all hope.
Omnem spem nostrum aliquot amisimus.
7. You, who have some love for your country,
ought not to do this.
Vos, qui aliquid amoris pro patria vestra habetis,
hoc facere non debeatis.
8. He was the first to march into this part of the country.
Is primus in hanc partem patriae iter fecit.
9. I do not consider Crassus the greatest man in our country.
Non existumo Crassum maximum virum nostrae patriae esse.
10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
Submitte nobis tuarum navium optimas.
My thanks to DH for typing in the exercises, and to JP for
his notes, without which I would have been completely lost.
R.
Rolleston
:
>> 3. You both had sufficient boldness.
>Uterque Vestrûm satis Audaciae habebant.
habebat.
>> 9. I think there is some good in all men.
>Puto aliquid Boni omnis Hominibus inesse.
omnibus.
R.
Daniel Hoehr
Daniel Hoehr wrote:
> M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
> Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
> Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
>
> Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.
I shall not be able to submit my answers earlier than Wednesday.
DH
Klaus Scholl
"Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:2mhdcrF...@uni-berlin.de...
I play your Exercise-Game, but i have no Time at this Day, i have to post earlier.
?Change it to <Responsa mittenda sunt usque ad Mercurii diem>?
Greet.
Daniel Hoehr
It would be great if you (and also others) could join in permanently
-- geteiltes Leid ist halbes Leid --, so if Saturday is better for
you, let's change it to "responsa mittenda sunt die Saturni", provided
it's also a good day for Johannes. Yet if one posts his answers on
Saturday, the next one on Sunday, the third one some days later and
then finally key is posted, it somehow drags on. I think it's
important to have one posting day for the answers rather than some
sort of deadline. And besides it's ever so tempting to have a look at
what the others have written when stuck in a sentence....
Cheers,
DH
Johannes Patruus
>
>
> Klaus Scholl wrote:
> > "Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2mhdcrF...@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> >>
> >>Daniel Hoehr wrote:
> >>
> >>>M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
> >>>Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
> >>>Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
> >>>
> >>>Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.
> >>
> >>I shall not be able to submit my answers earlier than Wednesday.
> >>
> >>DH
> >>
> >
> >
> > I play your Exercise-Game, but i have no Time at this Day, i have to
post earlier.
> > ?Change it to <Responsa mittenda sunt usque ad Mercurii diem>?
> > Greet.
Game?
> It would be great if you (and also others) could join in permanently
> -- geteiltes Leid ist halbes Leid --, so if Saturday is better for
> you, let's change it to "responsa mittenda sunt die Saturni", provided
> it's also a good day for Johannes. Yet if one posts his answers on
> Saturday, the next one on Sunday, the third one some days later and
> then finally key is posted, it somehow drags on. I think it's
> important to have one posting day for the answers rather than some
> sort of deadline. And besides it's ever so tempting to have a look at
> what the others have written when stuck in a sentence....
I can manage Saturdays. (Wednesdays remain best, Fridays & Sundays worst.)
I agree that a single answer-posting day is desirable.
Johannes
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
1. I know that they waste too much time
1. Scio eos nimis temporis terere.
2. He had too little confidence in himself.
2. Ei parum fiduciae in eo ipso erat.
3. You both had sufficient boldness.
3. Utrique vestrum satis audacia est.
4. They do this that the State may not suffer any^1 loss.
4. Hoc faciunt ne respublica quid detrimenti capiat.
5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
5. Tres milia militum optimorum nostrum periverunt.
6. Some of the citizens wished to surrender, others to resist.
6. Alii civium se tradere, alii resistere volebant.
7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world,
still keeps some of its old strength.
7. Civitas nostra, quae quondam erat maxima orbis terrarum,
adhuc aliquid virtutis antiquae conservat.
8. Most of you have shown more courage than wisdom.
8. Plerique vestrum plus virtutis quam sapientiae ostendistis.
9. I think there is some good in all men.
9. Arbitror aliquid boni omnibus hominibus inesse.
10. Where in the world do you live?
10. Ubi gentium habitas?
Exercise 60 [B].
1. Most of our old friends are dead, and some have ceased to be friends.
1. Plurimi amicorum mortui sunt, et nonnulli amici esse desiverunt.
There seems to be a ambiguity in the second clause:
.... and some have ceased to be friends
.... and some friends have ceased to be
2. Caesar has always been considered the greatest of the Romans.
2. Caesar maximus Romani semper habitus est.
3. The Gauls have too much eloquence and too little wisdom.
3. Galliis nimis eloquentiae ac parum sapientiae est.
4. They said that the Helvetii were the greatest nation
in the whole of Gaul.
4. Dicebant Helvetios gentem maximam omnis Galliae esse.
4. Helvetii gens maxima omnis Galliae esse dicebantur.
5. So great a storm arose, that the greater part of the ships were lost.
5. Tanta tempestas coorta est ut maior pars navium ammitteretur.
6. Some of us have lost all hope.
6. Aliquot nostrum omnem spem amiserunt.
7. You, who have some love for your country, ought not to do this.
7. Vos, qui aliquid amoris patriae habetis, hoc facere non debetis.
8. He was the first to march into this part of the country.
8. Ille primus in hanc partem regionis iter fecit.
9. I do not consider Crassus the greatest man in our country.
9. Crassum maximum virum civitatis nostrae non existimo.
10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
10. Nobis optimam navium tuarum submitte.
Thanks in advance for any helpful comments, hints, corrections, etc.
DH
Daniel Hoehr
Rolleston wrote:
> Klaus Scholl wrote:
> :
>
>>>3. You both had sufficient boldness.
>>
>>Uterque Vestrûm satis Audaciae habebant.
>
> habebat.
habebatis
DH
Daniel Hoehr
Rolleston wrote:
> My translations.
>
> Exercise 59 [A].
> 3. You both have sufficient boldness.
>
> Ambobus vobis satis audaciae est.
> Utroque vestrum satis audaciae est.
"utrique", I think.
> (Not very sure about "ambobus".)
No, me neither.
> 4. They do this that the State may not suffer any loss.
>
> Hoc faciunt ne quid detrimenti respublica patiatur.
I like the word order in here. I have no clue about word order in
Latin, but your version sounds really good.
> 7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world
> still keeps some of its old strength.
>
> Nostra civitas, quae quondam orbis terrarum maxima erat,
> adhuc (etiamnunc) antiqui aliquid roboris conservat.
Nice sandwich word order: "antiqui aliquid roboris"
For whatever reason I felt like disregarding "robur" from the
vocabulary section and went for "virtus" instead.
> 8. Most of you have shown more courage than wisdom.
>
> Vos plerique plus virtutis quam sapientiae praestitistis.
"praestitistis"... what tongue and finger twister! Hence my
"ostendistis" option. Whether it's acceptable, I don't know.
> 9. I think there is some good in all men.
>
> Aliquid boni omnibus viribus inesse habeo.
Yup. We blokes are not too shabby after all.
> Exercise 60 [B].
>
> 1. Most of our old friends are dead,
> and some have ceased to be friends.
>
> Plurimi antiquorum amicorum mortui sunt,
> et nonnulli amici esse cessaverunt.
N&H have "desino" for "cease". Not sure about "cesso".
> 3. The Gauls have too much eloquence and too little wisdom.
>
> Gallis nimis eloquantiae parum sapientiae est.
N&H don't like the Frenchm, do they? Also cf sentence 62:2.
> 4. They said that the Helvetii were the greatest
> nation in the whole of Gaul.
>
> Dixerunt helvetiam gentem Galliae maximam esse.
Eis certe optima horologia brachiale et socolata sunt.
> 5. So great a storm arose,
> that the greater part of the ships were lost.
>
> Tanta tempestas coorta est
> ut plerumque navium amissum est.
How sure are you about "plerumque"?
> 6. Some of us have lost all hope.
>
> Omnem spem nostrum aliquot amisimus.
That begs the question whether the verb should agree with "aliquot". I
thought so.
> 7. You, who have some love for your country,
> ought not to do this.
>
> Vos, qui aliquid amoris pro patria vestra habetis,
> hoc facere non debeatis.
"aliquid amoris pro patria": cf. JP's Prelim. Note (7) & A&G 348.
> 8. He was the first to march into this part of the country.
>
> Is primus in hanc partem patriae iter fecit.
Redivitne umquam domum?
> 10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
>
> Submitte nobis tuarum navium optimas.
So you want more than one of the best ships then....
> My thanks to DH for typing in the exercises,
You're welcome.
> and to JP for
> his notes, without which I would have been completely lost.
Yes, the notes were very helpful, although I de industria disregarded
"vos plerique" in note (4) and tried to translate "in himself" in 59:2
(cf prelim. note 8).
> R.
DH
Daniel Hoehr
Klaus Scholl wrote:
>>10. Where in the world do you live?
>
> Ubi Terrarum habitas?
The state-of-the-art idiomatic expression seems to be "ubi gentium" --
cf the vocab section to this exercise and also Menge, s.v. gens:
"ubi(nam) gentium" wo in aller Welt?
DH
Johannes Patruus
****************************************************************
EXERCISE 59
1. I know that they waste too much time
1. Scio eos nimis temporis terere.
2. He had too little confidence in himself.
2. Parum erat ei fiduciae.
3. You both have sufficient boldness.
3. Utrique vestrum est satis audaciae.
4. They do this that the State may not suffer any loss.
4. Hoc faciunt ne quid detrimenti respublica capiat.
5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
5. Tria milia optimorum nostrorum perierunt.
6. Some of the citizens wished to surrender, others to resist.
6. Alii civium se dedere volebant, alii resistere.
7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world,
still keeps some of its old strength.
7. Civitas nostra, quae aliquando orbis terrarum maxima erat,
aliquid antiqui roboris etiamnunc servat.
8. Most of you have shown more courage than wisdom.
8. Vos plerique plus virtutis quam sapientiae praestitistis.
9. I think there is some good in all men.
9. Aliquid puto inesse omnibus boni.
10. Where in the world do you live?
10. Ubi gentium habitas?
****************************************************************
EXERCISE 60
1. Most of our old friends are dead,
and some have ceased to be friends.
1. Plurimi antiquorum amicorum mortui sunt
et nonnulli destiterunt esse amici.
2. Caesar has always been considered the greatest of the Romans.
2. Caesar maximus Romanorum semper habitus est.
3. The Gauls have too much eloquence and too little wisdom.
3. Gallis nimis eloquentiae parum autem sapientiae est.
4. They said that the Helvetii were the greatest nation
in the whole of Gaul.
4. Dixerunt Helvetios gentem totius Galliae maximam esse.
5. So great a storm arose, that the greater part of the ships were lost.
5. Tanta tempestas coorta est ut major pars navium amissa sit.
6. Some of us have lost all hope.
6. Aliquot nostrum spem omnem amisimus.
7. You, who have some love for your country, ought not to do this.
7. Vos qui aliquid amoris habetis patriae vestrae hoc facere non debetis.
8. He was the first to march into this part of the country.
8. Ille primus in hanc partem terrae iter fecit.
9. I do not consider Crassus the greatest man in our country.
9. Non existimo Crassum virum nostrae terrae (civitatis) maximum.
10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
10. Optimas navium tuarum nobis submitte.
*****************************************************************
Johannes
Johannes Patruus
> Exercise 59 [A].
>
> 1. I know that they waste too much time
>
> Scio eos nimis temporis terere.
> Scio eos nimium tempus terere.
>
> (Is "nimium tempus" acceptable?)
We seem to be in a grey area, with the phrases "nimium tempus",
"nimium temporis" and even "nimis temporis" scoring meagrely on the
google-ometer.
> 3. You both have sufficient boldness.
>
> Ambobus vobis satis audaciae est.
> Utroque vestrum satis audaciae est.
>
> (Not very sure about "ambobus".)
BA378: " 'Uterque' is 'both' in the sense of 'each of two,' and
denotes two things or persons looked on separately.
Propter utramque causam.
For both reasons, i.e. for each of the two.
'Ambo' is 'both,' but it is used of two individuals as forming one
whole; 'both together'.
Qui utrumque probat, ambobus debet uti.
He who approves of each of these (separately)
is bound to use them both (together)".
> Exercise 60 [B].
> 5. So great a storm arose,
> that the greater part of the ships were lost.
>
> Tanta tempestas coorta est
> ut plerumque navium amissum est.
The closest I could find to this construction is "plerumque noctis"
(L&S, s.v. plerusque). (And a subjunctive after "ut" would have been
be nice!)
> 7. You, who have some love for your country,
> ought not to do this.
>
> Vos, qui aliquid amoris pro patria vestra habetis,
> hoc facere non debeatis.
Die though one may a thousand times over and more "for" (pro) one's
country, it would appear that idiomatically one's love for it is,
rather, "of" it, whence the Key's objective genitive
(and O how wickedly chained to the partitive!). Cf.A&G 348 and:
http://www.google.com/search?&q=%22amor%20patriae%22
> 8. He was the first to march into this part of the country.
>
> Is primus in hanc partem patriae iter fecit.
patria vs. terra - a question of "mot juste" - cf. N&H Synonyms
section s.v. "Land". In many contexts, however, there will be more
than one possibility.
Johannes
Johannes Patruus
> Exercise 59 [A].
> 3. You both had sufficient boldness.
> 3. Utrique vestrum satis audacia est.
audaciae.
> 5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
> 5. Tres milia militum optimorum nostrum periverunt.
(i) Since "our" is adjectival, you need "nostrorum".
(ii) Just repeat "tria milia" a dozen times, and you'll have it!
> Exercise 60 [B].
>
> 1. Most of our old friends are dead, and some have ceased to be friends.
> 1. Plurimi amicorum mortui sunt, et nonnulli amici esse desiverunt.
>
> There seems to be a ambiguity in the second clause:
>
> .... and some have ceased to be friends
> .... and some friends have ceased to be
I suspect that the absence of any further nominative in the second clause
leaves one no realistic option but to construe "amici" predicatively
rather than attributively. The Key's adoption of English word-order
(!!!amazing!!!) makes it clearer.
> 3. The Gauls have too much eloquence and too little wisdom.
> 3. Galliis nimis eloquentiae ac parum sapientiae est.
Note how the Key brings out the contrast.
> 10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
> 10. Nobis optimam navium tuarum submitte.
To me, the context makes a plural interpretation of "best" more likely
than the singular.
Comparison with the Key will reveal further points.
Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
Johannes Patruus wrote:
>>8. He was the first to march into this part of the country.
>>
>> Is primus in hanc partem patriae iter fecit.
>
>
> patria vs. terra - a question of "mot juste" - cf. N&H Synonyms
> section s.v. "Land". In many contexts, however, there will be more
> than one possibility.
I think "regio" or the plural "fines" would not be terribly wrong here.
> Johannes
DH
Daniel Hoehr
Johannes Patruus wrote:
> "Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> news:2movfnF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
>>Exercise 59 [A].
>>5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
>>5. Tres milia militum optimorum nostrum periverunt.
>
> (i) Since "our" is adjectival, you need "nostrorum".
Bugger. I have "nostrorum" in my notebook.
> (ii) Just repeat "tria milia" a dozen times, and you'll have it!
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
tria milia
Got it now!
>>Exercise 60 [B].
>>
>>1. Most of our old friends are dead, and some have ceased to be friends.
>>1. Plurimi amicorum mortui sunt, et nonnulli amici esse desiverunt.
>>
>> There seems to be a ambiguity in the second clause:
>>
>> .... and some have ceased to be friends
>> .... and some friends have ceased to be
>
>
> I suspect that the absence of any further nominative in the second clause
> leaves one no realistic option but to construe "amici" predicatively
> rather than attributively. The Key's adoption of English word-order
> (!!!amazing!!!) makes it clearer.
It does.
>>3. The Gauls have too much eloquence and too little wisdom.
>>3. Galliis nimis eloquentiae ac parum sapientiae est.
>
> Note how the Key brings out the contrast.
Amazing how close the ideas "and" & "but" can be sometimes.
>>10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
>>10. Nobis optimam navium tuarum submitte.
>
> To me, the context makes a plural interpretation of "best" more likely
> than the singular.
Damn. There goes my "We need your best ship to rescue us from this
island" theory out of the window....
> Comparison with the Key will reveal further points.
Thanks for the notes, the key and your help!
Almost all is surprisingly clear to me (I think).
> Johannes
DH
Daniel Hoehr
> Latin answers from the Key.
> EXERCISE 60
> 6. Some of us have lost all hope.
> 6. Aliquot nostrum spem omnem amisimus.
I'm not sure about this. Shouldn't the verb be in agreement with
"aliquot" and shouldn't it be third person plural?
Puzzledly
DH
Daniel Hoehr
Johannes Patruus wrote:
> Latin answers from the Key.
> EXERCISE 60
> 5. So great a storm arose, that the greater part of the ships were lost.
> 5. Tanta tempestas coorta est ut major pars navium amissa sit.
I completely missed this "Perfect subjunctive after a historic tense
to denote a momentary result that actually did follow" moment (cf The
Gruesomes' footnote 1 on page 8)
DH
Johannes Patruus
The real subject of "amisimus" is the unexpressed built-in "we", with
which aliquot is (I think) in apposition, as if you said:
We - some of us, that is - have lost all hope.
Moreover, "aliquot" would, I suspect, fall under the heading of what G&L
211, R.1, EX.(a) calls "substantives of multitude" which may be construed
by sense (sc. plural) rather than by form - Bennett 254:4.
> Puzzledly
Less so now, may I venture to hope?
Johannes
Rolleston
>Rolleston wrote:
>> Klaus Scholl wrote:
>> :
>>
>>>>3. You both had sufficient boldness.
>>>
>>
>> habebat.
>
>habebatis
habebas? :)
Fourth time lucky?
R.
Rolleston
>Rolleston wrote:
>> My translations.
>>
>> Exercise 59 [A].
>
>> 3. You both have sufficient boldness.
>>
>> Ambobus vobis satis audaciae est.
>> Utroque vestrum satis audaciae est.
>
>"utrique", I think.
Oops! Yes, indeed. I had hoped to save myself with L&S,
but they only write "old gen. and dat. sing. fem. utraeque".
>I like the word order in here. I have no clue about word order in
>Latin, but your version sounds really good.
It does, doesn't it? :) At any moment I expect the ghost of Cicero
to appear and praise me for my efforts. N&H are too mean to do
the same.
>> 7. Our country, which was once the greatest in the world
>> still keeps some of its old strength.
>>
>> Nostra civitas, quae quondam orbis terrarum maxima erat,
>> adhuc (etiamnunc) antiqui aliquid roboris conservat.
>
>Nice sandwich word order: "antiqui aliquid roboris"
The advantage of a well-constructed sandwich is that one does
not need to go crawling about on the floor looking for the filling.
>For whatever reason I felt like disregarding "robur" from the
>vocabulary section and went for "virtus" instead.
Too much like "robot"?
>> 8. Most of you have shown more courage than wisdom.
>>
>> Vos plerique plus virtutis quam sapientiae praestitistis.
>
>"praestitistis"... what tongue and finger twister!
The eyes suffer too.
> Hence my
>"ostendistis" option. Whether it's acceptable, I don't know.
It sounds very reasonable to me.
>> Exercise 60 [B].
>>
>> 1. Most of our old friends are dead,
>> and some have ceased to be friends.
>>
>> Plurimi antiquorum amicorum mortui sunt,
>> et nonnulli amici esse cessaverunt.
>
>N&H have "desino" for "cease". Not sure about "cesso".
I checked it in L&S before I used it. That's not to say I've
used it correctly, though. A very quick search yields this:
[http://core.ecu.edu/phil/ryane/parchiabk20.html]
Numquam enim bonum esse cessat.
The usual caveats apply.
>> 5. So great a storm arose,
>> that the greater part of the ships were lost.
>>
>> Tanta tempestas coorta est
>> ut plerumque navium amissum est.
>
>How sure are you about "plerumque"?
L&S: "plerumque , subst., with gen., the greatest
part: ubi plerumque noctis processit, Sall. J. 21.2"
>> 6. Some of us have lost all hope.
>>
>> Omnem spem nostrum aliquot amisimus.
>
>That begs the question whether the verb should agree with "aliquot".
Because "aliquot" is grammatically singular?
[Livy, AUC, http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/livy/liv.32.shtml]
Multis hinc atque illinc uolneribus acceptis cum etiam, ut in
proelio iusto, aliquot cecidissent, nox pugnae finem fecit.
>> 8. He was the first to march into this part of the country.
>>
>> Is primus in hanc partem patriae iter fecit.
>
>Redivitne umquam domum?
>
>> 10. Send to our help the best of your ships.
>>
>> Submitte nobis tuarum navium optimas.
>
>So you want more than one of the best ships then....
Hmmm. Is it ambiguous?
Can "the best of" mean "the best one of" and "the best few"?
I feel uneasy about the latter, but it might be acceptable.
Thanks,
R.
Rolleston
>"Daniel Hoehr" <dho...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
>news:2movfnF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>> Exercise 59 [A].
>
>> 3. You both had sufficient boldness.
>> 3. Utrique vestrum satis audacia est.
>
>audaciae.
That will please N&H, but is the answer near enough right
if "satis" is an adverb? L&S on "satis": http://tinyurl.com/6hxaf
>> 5. Three thousand of our best soldiers have perished.
>> 5. Tres milia militum optimorum nostrum periverunt.
>
>(i) Since "our" is adjectival, you need "nostrorum".
Or was it contracted? Sigh.
Feeding the Perseus lookup tool "nostrum" we get
nos
nostrum masc gen pl indeclform
nostrum fem gen pl indeclform
and
noster our, our own, ours, of us
nostrűm neut gen pl poetic
nostrűm masc gen pl poetic
A loathsome detestable execrable suppurating word.
Shhripppp. Do you hear that? It's the sound of pages
being gleefully ripped out of a dictionary.
R.
Rolleston
[...]
>> > 6. Some of us have lost all hope.
>> > 6. Aliquot nostrum spem omnem amisimus.
>>
>> I'm not sure about this. Shouldn't the verb be in agreement with
>> "aliquot" and shouldn't it be third person plural?
>
>The real subject of "amisimus" is the unexpressed built-in "we", with
>which aliquot is (I think) in apposition, as if you said:
> We - some of us, that is - have lost all hope.
I wonder if it makes any difference if the speaker is
not in the aliquot subset, i.e., he still has some hope.
R.
Rolleston
>2. Caesar has always been considered the greatest of the Romans.
>2. Caesar maximus Romani semper habitus est.
"Romanorum", or maybe, just maybe, "romanus"?
>4. They said that the Helvetii were the greatest nation
> in the whole of Gaul.
>4. Dicebant Helvetios gentem maximam omnis Galliae esse.
>4. Helvetii gens maxima omnis Galliae esse dicebantur.
The second answer lacks the "they". Suppose there was just one
person who was doing the saying? I know it sounds unlikely, but...
R.
Daniel Hoehr
Rolleston wrote:
> Daniel Hoehr wrote:
>
>>2. Caesar has always been considered the greatest of the Romans.
>>2. Caesar maximus Romani semper habitus est.
>
>
> "Romanorum", or maybe, just maybe, "romanus"?
Let's go for "Romanorum", shall we?
To make The Two .... erm .... happy:
http://members.tripod.com/~Motomom/godfather.JPG
>>4. They said that the Helvetii were the greatest nation
>> in the whole of Gaul.
>>4. Dicebant Helvetios gentem maximam omnis Galliae esse.
>>4. Helvetii gens maxima omnis Galliae esse dicebantur.
>
>
> The second answer lacks the "they".
Well, sort of. It's supposed to be a personal construction (nom +
inf), meaning "The Helvetii were said to be...." (cf The Gory Ones'
footnote 1 on page 44).
> Suppose there was just one
> person who was doing the saying? I know it sounds unlikely, but...
We're operating in a context-free environment here, but I sure that
quite a few (nonnulli) people said that the Swiss are the best Gauls
around. And who would dare to disagree with Caesar? Certainly notthose
whose military career depended on him.
Enough history for this morning. I've got to make a move.
> R.
DH