two FAQs for soc.culture.japan, s.c.asian.american, s.couples.intercultural
Tomoyuki Tanaka
this reminder was last updated on: Mon May 27, 1996
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some updates on the two FAQ files:
--- "American misconceptions about Japan FAQ" (2000 lines)
--- "disparity in Asian/white interracial dating FAQ" (1300 lines)
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(1) i posted version 4 of the "misconceptions" FAQ on Feb 10, 1996.
i'll probably post the new versions of the two FAQs soon.
(2) my WWW home page moved in May 1996 to
<http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html>.
(3) i'll be publishing these two FAQs and other articles in a
book form, hopefully in the next year or so.
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the following two FAQ files are for Usenet newsgroups
<soc.culture.japan>
<soc.culture.asian.american>
<soc.couples.intercultural-couples>.
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Usenet FAQ files edited by Tanaka:
--- "American misconceptions about Japan FAQ" (2000 lines)
--- "disparity in Asian/white interracial dating FAQ" (1300 lines)
access methods:
1. anonymous FTP sites for Usenet FAQs.
anonymous FTP is much easier with Lynx. enter the following.
lynx ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/soc.culture.japan
lynx ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet-by-group/soc.culture.japan
lynx http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/japan/top.html
2. <rtfm.mit.edu> provides an interface for e-mail retrieval.
send e-mail to mail-...@rtfm.mit.edu with
send usenet/news.answers/japan/american-misconceptions
or
send usenet/news.answers/intercultural-couples/asian-white-disparity
in the body of the message (the subject line is ignored).
3. Tanaka's WWW site.
Use Lynx (as "lynx http://copper.ucs.indiana.edu/~tanaka"),
Mosaic, Netscape, etc.
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"disparity in Asian/white interracial dating FAQ" can be found in my
WWW site and at <http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/
faq/bngusenet/soc/culture/japan/top.html>.
i haven't posted this one recently because i get a lot of
(almost too many) mail responses as it is.
;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki (Tanaka is my family name.)
;;;
;;; For <soc.culture.japan> and <soc.culture.asian.american> FAQ
;;; files, see <http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html>.
;;;
;;; e-mail: tan...@ucdavis.edu or tan...@cs.indiana.edu
Tomoyuki Tanaka
a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
three reasons:
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(1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
during and after the US-occupation following WW2, the Japanese
aesthetic sense was gravely affected. many Japanese people were
brainwashed by the same prejudiced standards of beauty that is
prevalent in the USA: "white people are beautiful; Asian and
black people are ugly."
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(2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
we Japanese see ourselves only as humans. we Japanese naturally
don't think of ourselves as ugly, short, yellow, buck-toothed,
slant-eyed, etc. ONLY racist Americans think this way, and draw
cartoon characters accordingly.
see the relevant section in "disparity in Asian/white
interracial dating FAQ". (i quote Malcolm X in that section.)
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(3) naive internationalism.
most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
"racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I studied in class
in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement. here
in Bloomington, Indiana I learned how real racism is.
so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
the race, national origin, social status, etc.
most of Tezuka's work for children (Astroboy, ribon no kisi,
etc) are done in this spirit.
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see also section (2.1) MYTH: Japanese (Asians) have slanted eyes
of "American misconceptions about Japan FAQ".
William P. Clough
Tomoyuki Tanaka (ez07...@rocky.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
: Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
: eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
: why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
: three reasons:
<snip>
Why is it that genuinely intelligent posts rarely surface on this
newsgroup, but your tired old tirades refuse to die? I have seen this
exact message appear at least three times in the past two years. Does
anyone ever REALLY make the mistake of asking for reasoned information
from you? I doubt it.
Realizing full well that if you haven't listened before, there's no reason
to expect you to start anytime soon, I once again submit the primary
reason why Japanese animation characters don't look "Asian" to Americans.
Having been asked by several friends myself, I got off my ass and LOOKED
for an answer. I discovered that the first animators (Tezuka and others)
looked at what was popular in America in order to size up the competition,
and one of the most popular animation series in the US at the time was
Betty Boop, who doesn't look Asian OR American. Seeing this as as good a
starting point as any, they began drawing in that style. Naturally, it
has since evolved along its own lines, while American animation took a
decidedly different course.
As far as I found researching this issue, there were no grievous political
or cultural tragedies which specifically spawned the Japaneimation
industry, and until you give us conclusive proof of such motivating forces
being present, stop trying to start fires on this newsgroup. God knows we
have more than enough of that crap on here already.
Regards,
Pat
robohen
By the way, has anyone noticed that the "loser" genre of American
animation in the 1990s, including Beavis & Butthead and The Simpsons, bear
a striking resemblance to the "loser" genre that was popular in Japan in
the 1980s? I'm thinking of Tabuchi kun, Gakideka, and a few others.
Beavis and Butthead even look like Tabuchi kun.
Ronald Spillman
William P. Clough (clou...@acasun.eckerd.edu) wrote:
: Tomoyuki Tanaka (ez07...@rocky.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: : a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
: : Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
: : eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
: : why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
: Why is it that genuinely intelligent posts rarely surface on this
: newsgroup, but your tired old tirades refuse to die? I have seen this
: exact message appear at least three times in the past two years. Does
: anyone ever REALLY make the mistake of asking for reasoned information
: from you? I doubt it.
'Cause the guy is a racist idiot who: 1. Is totally ignorant of animation
history, Japanese or otherwise; 2. Loves to rant against those who disagree
with his holy writ; and (let us not forget) 3. loves to piss off Caucasians,
so with his arrogant attitude, it is doubtful that ANYONE, let alone
Americans, would ask him anything other than his name (for future
avoidance :).
--
Ron Spillman
"Otaku no zen sekai de: Gappei suru n da zo!"
Labor:n. One of the processes by which A acquires property for B.(A.Bierce)
Vyarzerzomanimororsezassezanzerareorses?;-)
Mark David
rsp...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ronald Spillman) wrote:
>'Cause the guy is a racist idiot who: 1. Is totally ignorant of animation
>history, Japanese or otherwise; 2. Loves to rant against those who disagree
>with his holy writ; and (let us not forget) 3. loves to piss off Caucasians,
>so with his arrogant attitude, it is doubtful that ANYONE, let alone
>Americans, would ask him anything other than his name (for future
>avoidance :).
Whoa, take it easy! Thats-MISTER-to-you Tanaka isn't that bad.
Mark David -- Super Genius! | "Just because it says DVD does not mean
mad...@achilles.net | the quality is there."
dl...@freenet.carleton.ca | --David Garber, Senior VP, LIVE Ent.
mail100
JAPS want to be white that's why they let the whites in asia live and
killed 10 million chineses. That's why they treat the poor russians in
Japan with respect while they treat dark skin poor Asians in Japan
horribley. JAPS want to be white.
agent13
http://www.aclu.org/ ==national Homepage
http://www.aclu.org/community/newyork/ny.html <===New York
Tomoyuki Tanaka
that's one of the three reasons i present.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
interesting comparison.
i'm not very familiar with "Tabuchi kun".
the definitive loser comic in Japan was "dame oyaji".
;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki (Tanaka is my family name.)
;;;
;;; For <soc.culture.japan> and <soc.culture.asian.american> FAQ
;;; files, see <http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html>.
;;;
;;; e-mail: tan...@ucdavis.edu or tan...@cs.indiana.edu
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In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970118...@mariner.cris.com>,
Rene v. Rentzell
Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>
> a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
>
> Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
> eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
> why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> (1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
>
> during and after the US-occupation following WW2, the Japanese
> aesthetic sense was gravely affected. many Japanese people were
> brainwashed by the same prejudiced standards of beauty that is
> prevalent in the USA: "white people are beautiful; Asian and
> black people are ugly."
Negative. Comics published during and after the US occupation don't show these
characteristics. This particular drawing style (huge, round eyes, enormously long
spider legs etc) is a purely home-grown Japanese phenomenon that has developed over
the last few years. I've met several graphic artists who were quite amazed by it.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> (2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
>
> we Japanese see ourselves only as humans. we Japanese naturally
> don't think of ourselves as ugly, short, yellow, buck-toothed,
> slant-eyed, etc. ONLY racist Americans think this way, and draw
> cartoon characters accordingly.
Most people indeed do think of themselves as humans, here as there. However, there
are some race-obsessed twits, in Japan as well as in America. Tomiyuki Tanaka is a
good example. About cartoon characters, white figures are regularly drawn with
exaggerated features. On TV, it is standard practise for fun troups to put on long
cardboard noses and white wigs and prance around, imitating whites. There is a
commercial running right now for a snack company, featuring a whole family of such
masqueraded figures chanting broken Japanese: Mama wa iidesu ga iidesu yo ii desu
nee.
Anything similar would be unthinkable in America. The company would be sued to
kingdom come for race defamation and whatnot.
Notice also the huge shelf space devoted to "Nihonjin Ron" in Japanese bookshops.
From the uniqueness of the Japanese brain, to the uniqueness of the Japanese
vagina... everything's documented, printed, sold and bought.
What is amazing here is only Tomiyuki Tanaka's ignorance.
> see the relevant section in "disparity in Asian/white
> interracial dating FAQ". (i quote Malcolm X in that section.)
Should be properly called: Why Tomiyuki kun can't find a girlfriend.
I wish he would stop projecting his personal problems on some perceived race
conspiracy.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> (3) naive internationalism.
>
> most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
> intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
> know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
Oh yes? From the country where the elders of zion is a bestseller and where a major
publishing house recently posted a holocaust denying article? Tell us more.
> "racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I studied in class
I think racism is quite a real concept here. Lots of bars near Gotanda station
where I live carry signs: JAPANESE ONLY, or CHINESE NOT ALLOWED. If you buy the
Juutaku Joohon (sp), a real estate listing magazine, you'll see lots of apartments
with disclaimers like: NO FOREIGNERS, or JAPANESE ONLY, or NO KOREANS.
Tell us more about abstract concepts, Tomiyuki.
Jourdan M. Bickham
On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Mark David wrote:
> rsp...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ronald Spillman) wrote:
>
> >'Cause the guy is a racist idiot who: 1. Is totally ignorant of animation
> >history, Japanese or otherwise; 2. Loves to rant against those who disagree
> >with his holy writ; and (let us not forget) 3. loves to piss off Caucasians,
> >so with his arrogant attitude, it is doubtful that ANYONE, let alone
> >Americans, would ask him anything other than his name (for future
> >avoidance :).
>
> Whoa, take it easy! Thats-MISTER-to-you Tanaka isn't that bad.
>
>
What are you a Fucking moron?! You should read the line of bullshit he
throws out in soc.culture.japan. I know your mom must have been smoking
crack when she was pregnant with you....
Ronald Spillman
mail100 (mai...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: JAPS want to be white that's why they let the whites in asia live and
: killed 10 million chineses. That's why they treat the poor russians in
: Japan with respect while they treat dark skin poor Asians in Japan
: horribley. JAPS want to be white.
Definitely racist troll bait.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
In article <32E2A5...@twics.com>, Rene v. Rentzell <r...@twics.com> wrote:
>Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>>
>> a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
>>
>> Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
>> eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
>> why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>>
>> three reasons:
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> (1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
>>
>> during and after the US-occupation following WW2, the Japanese
>> aesthetic sense was gravely affected. many Japanese people were
>> brainwashed by the same prejudiced standards of beauty that is
>> prevalent in the USA: "white people are beautiful; Asian and
>> black people are ugly."
>
>Negative. Comics published during and after the US occupation don't show these
>characteristics. This particular drawing style (huge, round eyes, enormously long
>spider legs etc) is a purely home-grown Japanese phenomenon that has developed over
>the last few years. I've met several graphic artists who were quite amazed by it.
>
your observations are irrelevant to the point i made.
Charles Eicher
In article <na.762da0474f...@argonet.co.uk>, Chris Johnson
<mad...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <5btl21$n...@fiji.easyway.net>, mai...@hotmail.com (mail100)
> wrote:
> >
> > JAPS want to be white that's why they let the whites in asia live and
> > killed 10 million chineses. That's why they treat the poor russians in
> > Japan with respect while they treat dark skin poor Asians in Japan
> > horribley. JAPS want to be white.
>
> This is not a helpful post. It is inaccurate, racist and biased in the
> extreme.
>
> 1. The Japanese have...
Hey, wait a minute, would you please stop this? This is exactly the sort of
flamewar that Tanaka Tomoyuki was trying to start when he began this
ridiculous thread. I admonish people to NOT RESPOND to his trolling. In
case you didn't know, he tries to start these flamewars, then he copies
down all the responses, and if there is anything he can use, he will try to
publish it in his pseudo-FAQ. All you're doing by arguing with him is
providing him with "evidence" of racism.
So, PLEASE PLEASE do NOT respond to Tanaka's trolling. Everything he has
posted has been refuted multiple times, it is useless to argue these topics
again. The best response is NO response. He continues to repost material
written months or years ago, there is nothing new in these postings, and
there is no reason to respond to them.
| Charles Eicher |
| -=- |
| cei...@inav.net |
Jourdan M. Bickham
On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, mail100 wrote:
> JAPS want to be white that's why they let the whites in asia live and
> killed 10 million chineses. That's why they treat the poor russians in
> Japan with respect while they treat dark skin poor Asians in Japan
> horribley. JAPS want to be white.
agent 13 eh? Why don't you go fuck yourself..... better yet...take a
dip in agent orange.... You're a total was of sperm....
Chris Johnson
>
> JAPS want to be white that's why they let the whites in asia live and
> killed 10 million chineses. That's why they treat the poor russians in
> Japan with respect while they treat dark skin poor Asians in Japan
> horribley. JAPS want to be white.
This is not a helpful post. It is inaccurate, racist and biased in the
extreme.
1. The Japanese have no real desire to be any colour other than their own,
which includes a fair number of shades, some tending to white.
2. The deaths that you are referring to are, no doubt, the deaths sustained
by other countries during the last war and the events on the Asian
peninsula prior to that. I (among others) have discussed this until I am
blue in the fingers, and whatever else they may have thought at the time,
colour had nothing to do with this. Consider that a large number of
colonists from the UK, along with other parties from countries all over the
world, ended up in Japanese camps with little to look forward to but
starvation, back-breaking work, humiliation and death. Consider also the
large numbers of allied and Japanese troops that died in the battles that
eventually led to the surrender.
3. If the Japanese were to be condemned for this, as indeed the Nazis
also were, then what do you make of the racism that still causes rifts,
poverty and war throughout the world, from the rednecks of the US and
the NF and similar parties in the UK to the Russian decanting of Jews
and the current Jewish/Palistinian problems. No country is totally
innocent of this crime; you mention China? Well, what do you make of the
Chinese occupation and subjugation of Tibet?
4. As I have said before, what the Japanese did is now 50 years in the
past. The culture that caused Japan to enter the war and was responsible
for the atrocities are dead or dying. Attitudes are changing in Japan,
just as elsewhere. You cannot continue to hold a grudge toward a country
when the people that were responsible are no longer around, and you cannot
blame the generation of postwar Japanese for something that their parents
were responsible for.
War is a disgusting thing, and I hope that I shall never have to see it.
Attitudes like yours are what start wars. I hope that you can open your
mind a little and see the argument properly before you post any more posts
like that.
--
______
| /\ | /\/\ _ _| _ | _ Chris Johnson - mad...@argonet.co.uk
| //\\ | | |/-|/_|/_\|</-| url: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
|_/__\_| ------------------ /Acorns, Short Circuit Racing & Anime r us!/
... M-O-O-N and that spells Corn Pops.
ryoko
rsp...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ronald Spillman) wrote:
>mail100 (mai...@hotmail.com) wrote:
>: JAPS want to be white that's why they let the whites in asia live and
>: killed 10 million chineses. That's why they treat the poor russians in
>: Japan with respect while they treat dark skin poor Asians in Japan
>: horribley. JAPS want to be white.
And I guess based on the Simpsons, Americans want to be yellow.
Ryoko...
Brian Lam
ryoko (ry...@enternet.com.au) wrote:
> And I guess based on the Simpsons, Americans want to be yellow.
If only ONE jap' cartoon had roundeye characters,
that would be fair comparison
Charles Eicher
In article <5c0g4b$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, bl...@chat.carleton.ca
(Brian Lam) wrote:
> > Hey, wait a minute, would you please stop this? This is exactly the sort of
> > flamewar that Tanaka Tomoyuki was trying to start when he began this
> > ridiculous thread. I admonish people to NOT RESPOND to his trolling. In
>
> Utter nonsense. The "Japs" post by someone from hotmail.com can
> certainly be considered a troll but I have never seen T.Tanaka post
> anything that might be considered "racist" or "trolling". He has only
> acquired a fantastically bad rep among nippophiles on your scJapan
> newsgroup because almost all the white male nippophiles (who make up most
> of the group) disagree with him.
I'm not going to get into a flamewar with you, but tanaka's continual
trolling and massive crossposts are condemned by americans, japanese, and
just about everyone.. Are you sure you don't want to reconsider that
statement, that threads like 'American Propaganda of "racist Japanese"'
aren't blatant trolls?
> Just cuz you disagree with someone doesn't mean you have the right
> to defame them.
That's what we've been telling Tanaka for about 2 years now.
> > So, PLEASE PLEASE do NOT respond to Tanaka's trolling. Everything he has
> > posted has been refuted multiple times, it is useless to argue these topics
> > again. The best response is NO response. He continues to repost material
> > written months or years ago, there is nothing new in these postings, and
> > there is no reason to respond to them.
>
> And i suppose YOU have posted informative and insightful material ?
Why, actually, I have, and on this very subject. Here is a portion of that
post, which appeared in rec.arts.anime (and not in rec.arts.anime.misc
where this thread is appearing), in response to Tanaka's old pseudo-FAQ
about 'slanted eyes':
> FYI, the tradition of manga and anime style drawings goes back much further
> than that. Japanese storytelling through pictures goes back at LEAST as far
> as the 7th or 8th century, when buddhist tales were recorded in picture
> scrolls. Those scrolls typically emphasise hand gestures or bodily
> positions, for example, meditative Buddha images. In the images of the
> Buddha, eyes are typically narrow and elongated, however, I have been told
> that there are specific reasons for this, relating to religious
> iconography.
> Other 'narrative picture scrolls' (e-maki) from later eras describe
> historical events. Typically, masses of figures move in a landscape or
> cityscape, the emphasis is on movements of masses of figures, not on
> individual actors in the historical drama. Some examples of these e-maki
> show the reduced 'iconic' form of the faces of figures, but I haven't seen
> any examples that have anything that might be considered a precursor of the
> exaggerated eyes of modern manga.
> In later eras, outside influences had an impact on Japanese paintings, for
> example, in the Edo era, western paintings began to be seen (in
> reproduction) in Japan, and some startling 'hybrid' images began to be
> produced. Western subjects reproduced in japanese styles, and japanese
> subjects began to be depicted in western styles (remember, this is sometime
> after the Renaissance in Europe). Some of these paintings do have
> uncharacteristically 'round' eyes, although this is only the most minor of
> the stylistic oddities. I haven't studied this era of Japanese art
> extensively (and the Japanese seem to be embarassed of it, there is little
> scholarly material available on the paintings of this era), so I am
> hesitant to draw any conclusions.
> Anyway, this week, I was perusing a new book, "Postwar Japan as History"
> and while it is a very dry scholarly tome, and has only about 10
> photographs, one of them caught my eye. The photo shows a man pulling
> cartoons out of a picture frame, while speaking into a megaphone, in front
> of a crowd of children. The caption reads "Early postwar 'Picture Card
> Show' (kamishibai). This form of entertainment was extremely popular in the
> late 1940s and 1950s, before being overwhelmed by television. Many comic
> book artists began their careers by illustrating for this theater." The
> kamishibai images are not very clear in this image, but the faces seem to
> be oversized, and with large eyes, but in other respects, resemble the
> emaki somewhat. I think we can form a working hypothesis from this. These
> images (frames about two feet across) were designed to be seen from a
> distance, in a crowd of children seated in a public square. If the images
> had the subtle thin eyes of artworks from prior eras, they just wouldn't
> have been able to see the expression on the faces of the figures. The
> 'emaki' scrolls were designed for personal reading by a single person. The
> manga-style images were designed to be viewed by a crowd, just like a movie
> or a TV show.
> Also consider that Television is not a very high-resolution media. In fact,
> the inventor of TV specifically designed the medium to merely have
> sufficient resolution to convey a recognizable face. In fact, the first
> tests of TV were performed on a model of a comic book character, Felix the
> cat. For a character to come across clearly on TV, it must be exaggerated.
> TV actors talk about this all the time, how their body motions learned for
> Film acting must be modified for TV. But I'm not an expert in this area.
>
> A couple of personal experiences I might add..
>
> I had occasion to spend two months in Japan this summer. One of the
> memorable experiences I had was an evening when my host family and I sat
> around talking about art and drawing each other's portraits. My 'Big
> Sister' decided to draw my portrait (she isn't an artist). She had
> exceptional trouble with the eyes. She drew them too round and large, and
> kept erasing them over and over until the paper wore through.. I tried to
> show her some of the classical techniques used in western art for the
> layout of the skull. I've done rather extensive studies of cranial anatomy,
> and in particular, the structure of the eye, and can render it rather
> faithfully, in scientific detail. But generally, I'm not very good at
> realistic drawing (I'm an abstract artist, mostly). So.. I taught her some
> of the anatomy and painting tricks that artists have used since the days of
> Leonardo daVinci.. Her eyes still came out round. It must have been a
> matter of cultural conditioning (seeing all that manga..) BUT.. When I drew
> her portrait, I did my best to render her eyes as accurately as possible
> (after all, my reputation as an artist was on the line!).. Anyway, I did a
> rather excellent job capturing her eyes accurately and in correct
> proportion, and when she saw it, she said "oooh, the eyes are too thin!
> Westerners ALWAYS draw the eyes too thin!"
>
> On another note, I was rather startled by one experience in my language
> classes in Japan. We had visitors from our various host families come to
> our classroom for discussion. The topic of the day was 'shouyu versus
> sauce'.. Shouyu is the japanese term for soy sauce, 'sauce' in this sense,
> refers to a thicker sauce from Western style cooking. These terms were used
> as slang a few years ago to describe western and eastern facial features.
> We asked the Japanese visitors to describe these faces before we had
> learned what the terms meant, they seemed a bit uncomfortable describing
> these terms. 'Shouyu' faces were described as having thin eyes and
> eyebrows, thin lips with a wide mouth, pale unblemished skin, an oval face
> and long dark hair. 'Sauce' faces were described as having large round eyes
> with thick eyebrowns, thick lips, sweaty or shiny face ('Greasy' was the
> term they actually used), a round broad face,and wavy hair. Obviously, the
> 'shouyu' face was considered the ideal of beauty in Japan. I didn't
> consider this particularly shocking, as each culture has its own ideals of
> beauty. But I was slightly appalled to see the stereotypes applied to
> Westerners, and even more appalled to learn that this 'sauce' term was
> occasionally used as an insult to Japanese people who didn't live up to an
> idealized vision of Japanese beauty.
> -----
> Oh.. as an afterthought.. Some of you might know of my previous efforts at
> writing satyrical pseudo-scholarly articles. This is NOT one of them. I'm
> totally serious, everything in this article is factual, either drawn from
> my personal experiences, or can be easily supported with citiations from
> conventional history books. Email me if you need citations or references.
> I'm not an expert in manga or anime (in fact, I hate the stuff) but I am a
> devoted student of Asian Art history and Japanese literature and culture
> (I'm about 2 months from recieving two degrees, one in Japanese Literature
> and Language, and the other in Art & Art History)..
[author's note: yep, I have my degrees; as of this writing, I'm in Grad
school, working on my M.A. in Asian Studies, focusing on Japanese Art
History)
| Charles Eicher |
| -=- |
| cei...@inav.net |
Jim Breen
clou...@acasun.eckerd.edu (William P. Clough) writes:
>As far as I found researching this issue, there were no grievous political
>or cultural tragedies which specifically spawned the Japaneimation
>industry, and until you give us conclusive proof of such motivating forces
>being present, stop trying to start fires on this newsgroup. God knows we
>have more than enough of that crap on here already.
The Caucasion/semi-Caucasion appearance is not restricted to anime. I
know of several girls, one of mixed Japanese/Australian parentage, who
got a lot of modelling jobs in Japan because they lookd that right blend
of Japanese/Western that seems to be so appealling in Japan. Japanese
have described it to me as " looking slighlt Western is very chic", and
"being tall, thin, fair-skinned, etc. has an air of nobility.".
--
Jim Breen [ジム・ブリーン@モナシュ大å¦]
Department of Digital Systems. Monash University,
Clayton VIC 3168 Australia (p) +61 3 9905 3298 (f) +61 3 9905 3574
j.b...@dgs.monash.edu.au [http://www.dgs.monash.edu.au/‾jwb/]
Pepper
--
For the Best in personal Psychics
800-707-SEEK(7335) 2088 Live Psychic Hotline
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011-592-577-953 To shy to talk, Then just listen to these women
Tomoyuki Tanaka <ez07...@rocky.ucdavis.edu> wrote in article
<5btpk2$1o2$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
>
> interesting comparison.
>
> i'm not very familiar with "Tabuchi kun".
>
> the definitive loser comic in Japan was "dame oyaji".
>
>
> ;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki (Tanaka is my family name.)
> ;;;
> ;;; For <soc.culture.japan> and <soc.culture.asian.american> FAQ
> ;;; files, see <http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html>.
> ;;;
> ;;; e-mail: tan...@ucdavis.edu or tan...@cs.indiana.edu
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.970118...@mariner.cris.com>,
> robohen <Rob...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> >By the way, has anyone noticed that the "loser" genre of American
> >animation in the 1990s, including Beavis & Butthead and The Simpsons,
bear
> >a striking resemblance to the "loser" genre that was popular in Japan in
> >the 1980s? I'm thinking of Tabuchi kun, Gakideka, and a few others.
> >Beavis and Butthead even look like Tabuchi kun.
So how does Los Bros Hernandez "Love & Rockets" do over there? I guess no
one would really want to know about the story of Locas or Palomar,
considering that the whole thing has a very Latino feel, and somewhat
Aztec, too.
Daryn Brown
In article <5c0g4b$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca>, bl...@chat.carleton.ca (Brian Lam) writes:
|> Distribution: world
|>
|>
|> > Hey, wait a minute, would you please stop this? This is exactly the sort of
|> > flamewar that Tanaka Tomoyuki was trying to start when he began this
|> > ridiculous thread. I admonish people to NOT RESPOND to his trolling. In
|>
|>
Whats so ridiculous about this question? I always thought it was just a
facination with blond hair and blue eyes. If you lived in a culture where
just about everybody had black hair and blue eyes you'd be facinated with
those same features too. Anime, at its roots, was very much influenced by
early walt disney classics and has evolved into something totally unique.
I do, however, think its ridiculous to claim by this that japanese people
want to be caucasian. This would be like saying a black woman who had her
hair permed wants to be white. Or a hispanic woman who gets her hair dyed
blond wants to be white.
I am a black artist, does this mean that when I draw and paint people
they should always be black?
Drop the PC and stop being so touchy folks
DBIII
Brenda
Brian Lam wrote:
>
> Distribution: world
> Utter nonsense. The "Japs" post by someone from hotmail.com can
> certainly be considered a troll but I have never seen T.Tanaka post
> anything that might be considered "racist" or "trolling". He has only
> acquired a fantastically bad rep among nippophiles on your scJapan
> newsgroup because almost all the white male nippophiles (who make up most
> of the group) disagree with him.
> to defame them.
Well put.
During the past three months, I've read his posts and have visited his
home page, and can't honestly say I've seen anything racist.
Has he given me ideas and viewpoints to consider that I've overlooked
or ignored? Definitely.
Do I agree with everything he posts? No, I don't.
For example, I don't think Americans are unable to learn Japanese at the
same level that Japanese are able to learn English.
I'll argue the point when I finish the classes in Japanese I started
two weeks ago in response to his post. I like a challenge.
If you think Mr. Tanaka is wrong, prove it without being hateful. You
might learn something, and maybe that's his whole point. Learning not
Racism.
As for the complaint in another post, that Mr. Tanaka reposts the same
things, so what? New people join newsgroups all the time.
Give him a break.
Tomoyuki Tanaka
what is this movie with Jp man and a white woman?
> I do recall a movie that where a WF married a AM
> secertly after meeting and falling in love. His family
> received so many problems when they moved in the area
> and then to make it worse Pearl Harbor occured. She
> faked her death so that she would leave her family. He
> didn't know so he killed himself. I can't remember the
> whole story or the name of the film. It was along the
> lines of Romeo and Juliet.
i don't think it's the "Ginger Tree".
Chris Johnson
In article <ceicher-ya0230800...@news.inav.net>,
cei...@inav.net (Charles Eicher) wrote:
>
> Hey, wait a minute, would you please stop this? This is exactly the sort
> of
> flamewar that Tanaka Tomoyuki was trying to start when he began this
> ridiculous thread. I admonish people to NOT RESPOND to his trolling. In
> down all the responses, and if there is anything he can use, he will try
> to
> publish it in his pseudo-FAQ. All you're doing by arguing with him is
> providing him with "evidence" of racism.
I deliberately posted my item for two reasons. First, I thought that it
needed to be said, whether it was troll bait or not. Secondly, as an
exercise in a reasoned response rather than a plain flame, an example of
which appeared in this same thread.
> So, PLEASE PLEASE do NOT respond to Tanaka's trolling. Everything he has
> posted has been refuted multiple times, it is useless to argue these
> topics
> again. The best response is NO response. He continues to repost material
> written months or years ago, there is nothing new in these postings, and
> there is no reason to respond to them.
You will never totally succeed in this. Someone will always insist on rising
to posts like this. The point is, as I have said, that reasoned argument is
better than straight flaming. For all sorts of reasons.
--
______
| /\ | /\/\ _ _| _ | _ Chris Johnson - mad...@argonet.co.uk (ZFC A)
| //\\ | | |/-|/_|/_\|</-| url: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
|_/__\_| ------------------ /Acorns, Short Circuit Racing & Anime r us!/
... If at first you don't succeed, you're doing about average.
Khai Phan
Hello "bat eyes"(I mean bad eye sight),
It is ridiculous for you guys let the racist attitude spills over all
observations. The cartoon characters that you are talking about have all
the Asian characteristics and none of Westerner's. Even through double
lid, round eyes are not the dominant trait of Japanese, they are not
uncommon. I have quite a few friends with big round eyes, a matter of
facts some of them look just like those cartoon characters, very pretty.
Followings are my analysis:
The cartoon characters have big round eyes.
My western friends, especially men have double lid eyes but the eye
lids are very, very thick, kind like Miss Piggy's.
The cartoon characters have fine complexion.
My western friends, especially men have a very unfine complexion, it
is just short of elephant's.
The cartoon characters are not hairy.
My western friends, especially men have.. ah, I do not want to upset
my friends.
Anyway, the differences are in details. I recommend you guys should
spend some money on a better pair of eye glasses or adjusting your
attitude.
Cheers,
KP the Fisherman
PS: I found JP/KR gals are very attractive,the closer I got the more
attractive I found (no kidding).
Tomoyuki Tanaka <ez07...@rocky.ucdavis.edu> wrote in article
<5bridu$9pt$1...@mark.ucdavis.edu>...
>
> a question i've been asked by Americans many times:
>
> Question: characters in Japanese animations often have big round
> eyes and they don't look Japanese at all (to Americans).
> why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
>
> three reasons:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> (1) Japanese are brainwashed by racist American standards of beauty.
>
> during and after the US-occupation following WW2, the Japanese
> aesthetic sense was gravely affected. many Japanese people were
> brainwashed by the same prejudiced standards of beauty that is
> prevalent in the USA: "white people are beautiful; Asian and
> black people are ugly."
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> (2) lack of anti-Japanese prejudice.
>
> we Japanese see ourselves only as humans. we Japanese naturally
> don't think of ourselves as ugly, short, yellow, buck-toothed,
> slant-eyed, etc. ONLY racist Americans think this way, and draw
> cartoon characters accordingly.
>
> see the relevant section in "disparity in Asian/white
> interracial dating FAQ". (i quote Malcolm X in that section.)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> (3) naive internationalism.
>
> most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
> intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
> know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
> "racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I studied in class
> in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement. here
> in Bloomington, Indiana I learned how real racism is.
>
> so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
> belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
> the race, national origin, social status, etc.
>
> most of Tezuka's work for children (Astroboy, ribon no kisi,
> etc) are done in this spirit.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> see also section (2.1) MYTH: Japanese (Asians) have slanted eyes
> of "American misconceptions about Japan FAQ".
Keisuke Hoashi
They look caucasian? Anime characters tend to all look the same,
granted, but caucasian? They look just, well, DRAWN to me.
I've always thought the main issue was the enormous size of anime
characters' eyes. There's a very simple reason for this, one used by
all animation studios all over the world. BIG EYES ARE MORE EXPRESSIVE.
Look at any animated movie. The smaller the eyes, the stiffer the
character is perceived by the viewer. Compare Arial from Disney's "The
Little Mermaid" with Snow White in Disney's "Snow White and the Seven
Dwarves". Which character is more expressive?
Look at the Maison Ikkoku series versus the movie. The latter's
character designs used the smallest eyes I have ever seen in an anime;
the characters suffered badly from it.
We ain't going for realism in animation. We're going for
believability. That, along with storytelling, was Walt Disney's primary
motivation. I think that clearly drives manga authors like Itami and
Takahashi, too.
===============
What is it with this Tanaka Tomoyuki? Hell, I used to be bitter about
being Japanese in America, but I outgrew it when I realized it made
everyone uncomfortable, and threatened to make me into a racist.
Ah well. Maybe he aspires to be the first professional Asian racist in
America, like the Reverend Al Sharpton. Do you suppose he has his own
version of Ebonics, only with a thick stereotypic Japanese accent? :D
--Keisuke Hoashi
Brian Lam
<5c0g4b$2...@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> <32E42F...@kear.tdsnet.com>
Distribution:
Brenda (bmac...@kear.tdsnet.com) wrote:
> During the past three months, I've read his posts and have visited his
> home page, and can't honestly say I've seen anything racist.
> Has he given me ideas and viewpoints to consider that I've overlooked
> or ignored? Definitely.
> Do I agree with everything he posts? No, I don't.
Now if only those Asia-fetishers on these ng's could do the same.
Rene v. Rentzell
Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>
> what is this movie with Jp man and a white woman?
>
> > I do recall a movie that where a WF married a AM
> > secertly after meeting and falling in love. His family
> > received so many problems when they moved in the area
> > and then to make it worse Pearl Harbor occured. She
> > faked her death so that she would leave her family. He
> > didn't know so he killed himself. I can't remember the
> > whole story or the name of the film. It was along the
> > lines of Romeo and Juliet.
>
>
> ;;; (Mr.) TANAKA Tomoyuki (Tanaka is my family name.)
> ;;;
> ;;; For <soc.culture.japan> and <soc.culture.asian.american> FAQ
> ;;; files, see <http://www.cs.indiana.edu/hyplan/tanaka.html>.
> ;;;
> ;;; e-mail: tan...@ucdavis.edu or tan...@cs.indiana.edu
Saw a movie recently with jap. man and caucas. women in title roles
called "cold steel" or "white steel" or something like that. Japanese-
American coproduction. All the good guys are Japanese, all the villains
Americans. Slick production, nice pictures, stupid story, gloss, form
over content. FWIW
Leong Meng Wei Charmaine
In-Reply-To: <na.762da0474f...@argonet.co.uk>
On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Chris Johnson wrote:
>
> 4. As I have said before, what the Japanese did is now 50 years in the
> past. The culture that caused Japan to enter the war and was responsible
> for the atrocities are dead or dying. Attitudes are changing in Japan,
> just as elsewhere. You cannot continue to hold a grudge toward a country
> when the people that were responsible are no longer around, and you cannot
> blame the generation of postwar Japanese for something that their parents
> were responsible for.
Very true. Speaking as a second generation post-"Shonan-to"-er, the
hostility my grandparents feel is much watered down. The only memory of
the 1942-45 period for me exists only in my history books, and that is
the way I feel it should be. Sure, there are lessons to be learnt, but
after we learn them, it's time to move on. I can't blame the current
generation for the sins of their fathers, in fact I applaud them because
they are now facing up to their own history. Nothing is more moving than
a Japanese schoolgirl crying her eyes out in front of the Cenotaph. Time
to move on. It's enough.
~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~
Charmaine Leong * _____ _______
s546...@mercury.np.ac.sg * | -|--|- /---- | _|_ | /
* ---|--- -|- | / ++++ | _|_ | /
***Ryoko forever and death*** / \ / | -------- | | | /
*** to all infidels!!!! *** / \ |____, / \ \ \ / | \| *
*
~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~^~*~
Michael Cash
Tomoyuki,
I don't necessarily think that your friends expected Japanese animators
to draw characters as Americans draw *caricatures* of Japanese. But you
must admit, on some of them, the eyes take up about half the face, they
have very long legs, and more prominent noses than you would expect to
find. They have every color of hair imaginable.
I often meet people here in Japan who are envious of sharper noses, blue
eyes, and blond hair. I think it is ridiculous, by the way.
I love to read Japanese 4-koma manga by Ueda Masashi, Tanaka Sho, and
Taira Hisashi (also Hotta Katsuhiko): but I never read any of that crap
which draws the characters as I mentioned in my first paragraph above.
I think that whoever came up with that and whoever is perpetuating it is
insulting everyone in Japan. I would like to see more realistic
features.
Think about it this way, Tomoyuki, those Japanese animations are kind of
caricatures of Westerners. But they aren't as bad as when the print
manga (including the authors above who I love) draw foreigners in their
manga. Some of those caricatures of whites are quite insulting.
Mike
Aaron Woolfolk
On 21 Jan 1997, Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
> what is this movie with Jp man and a white woman?
>
> > I do recall a movie that where a WF married a AM
> > secertly after meeting and falling in love. His family
> > received so many problems when they moved in the area
> > and then to make it worse Pearl Harbor occured. She
> > faked her death so that she would leave her family. He
> > didn't know so he killed himself. I can't remember the
> > whole story or the name of the film. It was along the
> > lines of Romeo and Juliet.
>
> i don't think it's the "Ginger Tree".
There's a French film from the 1960's called "Hiroshima Mon Amour" that is
about a love affair between a Japanese man and white woman. It's
considered a cinema classic, and is routinely studied in film schools
around the world. It's not the film described above, though.
- Aaron
paulcs
Tomoyuki Tanaka wrote:
>
> most Japanese people have no idea that they are a target of an
> intense racial prejudice, as in the USA. they don't even really
> know what "anti-Semitism" is. in fact, when I lived in California
> "racism" was just a word, an abstract concept I studied in class
> in connection with slavery and the civil rights movement. here
> in Bloomington, Indiana I learned how real racism is.
It's funny. When I lived in California, racism was anything but an
abstraction. I was in South Central a couple of weeks after the riot. It
didn't look particularly "abstract."
> so most Japanese people have a "naive internationalism", the
> belief that we can be simply human beings, without specifying
> the race, national origin, social status, etc.
>
So what you're saying here is that nationalism is a foreign concept in
Japan? And there isn't any bigotry based on national origin (ethnic
Koreans) or social status (leather workers). Now, how does Japan manage
to avoid these evils while the rest of the planet struggles with them?
Possibly, the author is overstating his position.
One suspects the author believes bigotry disappears when its not aimed
directly at him.
Rene v. Rentzell
Keisuke Hoashi wrote:
> What is it with this Tanaka Tomoyuki? Hell, I used to be bitter about
> being Japanese in America, but I outgrew it when I realized it made
> everyone uncomfortable, and threatened to make me into a racist.
>
> Ah well. Maybe he aspires to be the first professional Asian racist in
> America, like the Reverend Al Sharpton. Do you suppose he has his own
> version of Ebonics, only with a thick stereotypic Japanese accent? :D
Wouldn't surprise me a bit. And, like the Oakland Schoolboard, he probably
argues it is "genetic". :-)
Geoffrey Scott
ryoko (ry...@enternet.com.au) wrote:
: rsp...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ronald Spillman) wrote:
: >mail100 (mai...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: >: JAPS want to be white that's why they let the whites in asia live and
: >: killed 10 million chineses. That's why they treat the poor russians in
: >: Japan with respect while they treat dark skin poor Asians in Japan
: >: horribley. JAPS want to be white.
: And I guess based on the Simpsons, Americans want to be yellow.
...and have four fingers.
Geo
Geoffrey Scott
Here's an easy way to settle this. A lot of Japanese people are racists.
A lot of Americans are racists. I personally find Japanese racism more
forgivable, because very few Japanese live in a society with people from a
multitude of backgrounds and races, although much of America is such a
society (excluding, say, the middle third of the country, which is
definetely still white man's land for the most part...it's also the least
populated third, and, with the South, the most racist third). The fact
that few foreigners live in Japan allows racism to be more blatant there,
and allows the government there to ignore it for the most part. I live in
a part of the country (greater Los Angeles) where there are almost as
many, if not more, non-whites that whites, so I have personally met nobody
that was openly a racist (although I have met some that were racists under
the surface, and, who, for the most part, would deny that they were
racists, and probably believe they aren't). Most people who think this
way have little experience (at work, school, or social gatherings) with
people of other cultures and races. I think the only way to elimate
racism is to have people have more experience with people from other
cultures and races. Unfortuantly, that means Japan, whose homogenenous
makeup is seemingly permanent, will have a fair number of racists long
after racism dies out in America. (geez, I intended to try to settle
this, and ended up adding fuel to the fire...oh well)
Geo
Chris Johnson
In article <5cf1e4$e...@magnolia.pe.net>, g...@magnolia.pe.net (Geoffrey
So Bart is actually a yakuza, ne? I always wondered about that! :)
(Well, the last few posts I've made to this thread have been so heavy...)
--
______
| /\ | /\/\ _ _| _ | _ Chris Johnson - mad...@argonet.co.uk (ZFC A)
| //\\ | | |/-|/_|/_\|</-| url: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
|_/__\_| ------------------ /Acorns, Short Circuit Racing & Anime r us!/
... If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle em with bullsh*t.
Michael Cash
> with the South, the most racist third
I would like to take exception to the above, Geoffrey. It may or not be
the most
*openly* racist section of the country. I have met (while in the Navy)
many people from over the U.S. and found that by no means were the
Southerners the most racist.
White Southerners seem to be the only ethnic group left on whom it is
politically correct and acceptable to dump shit. Because of slavery we
are seen as being the root cause of all racism in America.
Remember, Dr. King moved his family down to Mississippi so his children
could play in the yard without his having to worry about some crazy
hurting them. He moved from Chicago.
Mike
B. Milvid
How can you find any kind of racism forgivable ?
Atmavictu
Chris Johnson wrote:
>
> In article <5cf1e4$e...@magnolia.pe.net>, g...@magnolia.pe.net (Geoffrey
> Scott) wrote:
> >
> > ryoko (ry...@enternet.com.au) wrote:
> > : rsp...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ronald Spillman) wrote:
> > : And I guess based on the Simpsons, Americans want to be yellow.
> >
> > ...and have four fingers.
>
> So Bart is actually a yakuza, ne?
If that's the case, then so is Mickey Mouse ;)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John "Atmavictu" Chambers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psyc@
eah! bart is a mamuno hunter!
ryoko
Atmavictu <jcha...@pop.erols.com> wrote:
>> So Bart is actually a yakuza, ne?
>
>If that's the case, then so is Mickey Mouse ;)
Actually he's a low grade pimp, I've seen the way he treats Minnie, that
dirty rat!
Ryoko...
Steven Doi
It sounds like the made-for-televison movie, "Tomorrow Never Comes". It
was made in the early 1970's and may never be rebroadcast.
Steve Doi
Charles Eicher
Yep, its a big racist conspiracy. The paper is white, so the characters are
all white..!
So can we stop this stupid thread yet? Please direct complaints regarding
this thread to Tanaka Tomoyuki, at ez07...@ucdavis.edu as he is the one
who started this damn thing. You know, he posts this same message, the
exact SAME message, about once a month, it would be nice if the manga/anime
community would turn a blind eye to his racist trolling.
| Charles Eicher |
| -=- |
| cei...@inav.net |
Chris Johnson
In article <32ED34...@pop.erols.com>, Atmavictu <jcha...@pop.erols.com>
wrote:
>
> Chris Johnson wrote:
> > > : And I guess based on the Simpsons, Americans want to be yellow.
> > >
> > > ...and have four fingers.
> >
>
> If that's the case, then so is Mickey Mouse ;)
Never doubted it for a moment!! :))
--
______
| /\ | /\/\ _ _| _ | _ Chris Johnson - mad...@argonet.co.uk (ZFC A)
| //\\ | | |/-|/_|/_\|</-| url: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/madoka/
|_/__\_| ------------------ /Acorns, Short Circuit Racing & Anime r us!/
... Did you know that no-one ever reads these things?
Mike Breen
paulcs wrote:
>One suspects the author believes bigotry disappears when its not aimed
>directly at him.
One also suspects the author is as much of a racist as the "evil white
Americans." To say that an _entire_ group of people are racist is racisim
itself.
---Mike
Loud Family, Robyn Hitchcock, Miracle Legion
Yamato, Macross, Highlander
Check out the Craving Orange home page at
http://www.channel1.com/users/mikeb
ADRIANNE PADUA
That's what everybody's asking about Japanese animation characters: why
do they look so Caucasian?
The art itself was influenced by Disney's "Bambi" (the cute, big eyes,
cute mouth, etc.), and besides, I think that the anime industry is not
just focusing its animation projects towards Japan itself, but all over
the world. To make it really worldwide, the characters have to look
something other than Asian (or Japanese) so that those who get the hold of
this series may in fact change the character names (not to mention dubbing
it in another language) and not assuming that they're all Japanese.
Anime is like Japan's art gift to the whole world. We all should
appreciate it. At least they're not racist that all that cool effects and
awesome art only refers to Asians (or Japanese), right? We should be
thankful!
It's not the race of the characters that should be the big issue of this
question, but the art form and the animation itself is the one that counts
the most.
That's just my opinion.
PsychoKick
In article <Pine.SOL.3.95.970210154105.3394B-100000@haywire>,
apa...@haywire.csuhayward.edu says...
[snip]
Can't we just let this thread DIE already?!?!?!
--
-PsychoKick (mad animator in training)
--
"Creativity will not come out of happy lives, but from people who become
outcasts." -Toshio Okada
--
"One little word shall fell him." -'A Mighty Fortress is our God'
--
"Actually, I like being corrected. That way, I don't embarrass myself by
spewing the same BS over and over." -Paul Cordeiro
omelet
The facial features of Japanese anime and Disney characters (and most
cartoon characters, actually) are not mirrors of caucasian facial
features.
Actually, I suspect that these facial features are meant to emulate
infant facial features. Infants heads are a larger proportion of
their bodies than adults. Also, the proportion of facial features are
different - infants eyes are larger, and have small button noses, and
a large forehead, just like anime cartoon characters. If you notice,
the older (or evil) characters do not have those big eyes, and have
more normally proportioned faces, to avoid looking infantile or cute.
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:46:01 -0800, ADRIANNE PADUA
<apa...@haywire.csuhayward.edu> wrote:
=That's what everybody's asking about Japanese animation characters: why
=do they look so Caucasian?
=
=The art itself was influenced by Disney's "Bambi" (the cute, big eyes,
=cute mouth, etc.), and besides, I think that the anime industry is not
=just focusing its animation projects towards Japan itself, but all over
=the world. To make it really worldwide, the characters have to look
=something other than Asian (or Japanese) so that those who get the hold of
=this series may in fact change the character names (not to mention dubbing
=it in another language) and not assuming that they're all Japanese.
=
=Anime is like Japan's art gift to the whole world. We all should
=appreciate it. At least they're not racist that all that cool effects and
=awesome art only refers to Asians (or Japanese), right? We should be
=thankful!
=
=It's not the race of the characters that should be the big issue of this
=question, but the art form and the animation itself is the one that counts
=the most.
=
=That's just my opinion.
=
=
=On 29 Jan 1997, Mike Breen wrote:
=
=> paulcs wrote:
=> >One suspects the author believes bigotry disappears when its not aimed
=> >directly at him.
=>
=> One also suspects the author is as much of a racist as the "evil white
=> Americans." To say that an _entire_ group of people are racist is racisim
=> itself.
=>
=> ---Mike
=> Loud Family, Robyn Hitchcock, Miracle Legion
=> Yamato, Macross, Highlander
=>
=> Check out the Craving Orange home page at
=> http://www.channel1.com/users/mikeb
=>
=>
=
Michael Khan
ADRIANNE PADUA wrote:
> Anime is like Japan's art gift to the whole world. We all should
> appreciate it.
"Japan's art gift to the world"? Yeah, right.
Anime of all things, rather than Hokusai, Hiroshige
or Higashiyama? The mind boggles.
Michael
T.Toyama
Two reasons that many Manga looks like whites.
1, Tezuka Osamu who made Manga industry so famous in Japan was strongly
incluenced by Disney, and his influence still remain.
2. In Japan and many parts of the world, good looks means Western style
including face and cloth. Whoever have "power" gets credit as "good
looking", very unfortunately.
Refer <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1616/critcsm.html>
Simple, isn't it?
Student
Yes, I agree that our focus should not be the ethnic background of the
anime characters, but one must admit that it makes for an interesting
question and observation. I hadn't realized that these characters'
features were developed from "Bambi." I think that in addition to the
already stated comments, the Japanese have (and this may be the wrong word
for it) a fascination or curiosity about non-Asian faces. I lived in
Japan for several months and foreigners are constantly being used in
advertisements. I saw this on huge billboards in airports and train
stations, in magazines as well as on television commercials.
So, I wonder if you can relate this in anyway to Japanese anime and their
use of Caucasian features in the characters. In other words, is it merely
a reflection of the Japanese fascination with the Caucasian features?
--
This message is being sent from a PUBLIC Macintosh lab. The opinions expresed are that of the user using this lab, not of the University of Alaska, Fairbanks.
Mark David
Public...@aurora.alaska.edu (Student) wrote:
> I hadn't realized that these characters'
>features were developed from "Bambi." I think that in addition to the
>already stated comments, the Japanese have (and this may be the wrong word
>for it) a fascination or curiosity about non-Asian faces. I lived in
>Japan for several months and foreigners are constantly being used in
>advertisements. I saw this on huge billboards in airports and train
>stations, in magazines as well as on television commercials.
So? There are a ton of foreign faces on US television, magazines and
billboards; it indicates nothing but that certain ad agencies felt
they would go best with whatever it was they were trying to sell.
>So, I wonder if you can relate this in anyway to Japanese anime and their
>use of Caucasian features in the characters. In other words, is it merely
>a reflection of the Japanese fascination with the Caucasian features?
The characters look neither caucasian or asian. They look like anime
characters. Racial identity is determined by their assumed identities.
Mark David -- Super Genius! | "Just because it says DVD does not mean
mad...@achilles.net | the quality is there."
dl...@freenet.carleton.ca | --David Garber, Senior VP, LIVE Ent.
Doug Jacobs
Mark David (mad...@achilles.net) wrote:
: Public...@aurora.alaska.edu (Student) wrote:
: >So, I wonder if you can relate this in anyway to Japanese anime and their
: >use of Caucasian features in the characters. In other words, is it merely
: >a reflection of the Japanese fascination with the Caucasian features?
: The characters look neither caucasian or asian. They look like anime
: characters. Racial identity is determined by their assumed identities.
I'm so glad that someone else brought this up ;) Most anime characters
aren't Japanese...they're not even supposed to be Asian. Look at the
Gundam cast for instance.
Even in the US looks does not equal racial identity. Try it if you
wish... Walk up to a random stranger and attempt to guess their
racial and cultural identity. Of course you might get a black eye for
a wrong guess ;)
Zhiping Yu
Doug Jacobs (dja...@rahul.net) wrote:
: : >So, I wonder if you can relate this in anyway to Japanese anime and their
: : >use of Caucasian features in the characters. In other words, is it merely
: : >a reflection of the Japanese fascination with the Caucasian features?
: : The characters look neither caucasian or asian. They look like anime
: : characters. Racial identity is determined by their assumed identities.
: I'm so glad that someone else brought this up ;) Most anime characters
: aren't Japanese...they're not even supposed to be Asian. Look at the
: Gundam cast for instance.
P
Gundam is not about Japan. Gundam is about the world. If you notice there
are ppl from all over the world in Gundam. Hint hint United Federation.
okay here are the important Asian Gundam Chara:
Kou (0083)
Shiro (08th)
Bright (Gundam)
Mira (Gundam)
Chein (CCA)
Kas (Zeta)
etc...there are more...at least a few Asian in each series..
remember Anime does not equal to Asian Cartoon. Anime is a art style...another
mediem...just like movie...radio...etc...it's international..
Z
: Even in the US looks does not equal racial identity. Try it if you
postc...@coldmail.com
Re: why do characters in Japanese animations look so Caucasian?
Because they are drawn that way.