Branch Davidians suing Reno, FBI, ATF-It's about time!
dhol...@my-deja.com
If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
the ATF and FBI, this is it!
I hope ALL of the guilty federal Jack-booted thugs
rot in hell and or prison!
dan
JULY 03, 01:09 EDT
Branch Davidian Suit Will Continue
WACO, Texas (AP) ? A federal judge has cleared the way for a lawsuit
that
claims the federal government is responsible for the fiery and deadly
end to the
1993 Branch Davidian standoff.
U.S. District Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. pared the number of defendants
and
plaintiffs, but ruled Thursday that the case can go to trial, said Mike
Caddell,
lead attorney for the Davidians.
``I think what the judge did is a great victory for the Davidians and
for the
country,'' Caddell said. ``Our folks can't be happier, and look forward
to having
their day in court.''
The lawsuit ? filed by surviving Davidians and the relatives of the
dead ?
challenges the government's conclusion that the Davidians started the
fire and
that they also shot first during the federal raid on their compound.
David Koresh and about 80 followers died in the fire that ended the
51-day
standoff.
The defendants include Attorney General Janet Reno and top officials of
the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the FBI, including
then-Director
William Sessions.
``We're still reviewing the decision at this point,'' said Myron
Marlin, a Justice
Department spokesman.
The multimillion-dollar lawsuit has been on hold since early May while
an
appeals court considered whether Smith should be removed from the case.
The plaintiffs wanted another judge because Smith has ruled in criminal
cases
involving Branch Davidians.
The Davidians contend that when federal agents punched through the
walls
and fired tear gas into the cult compound on April 19, 1993, the
canisters
ignited, burning the building and the people inside.
Congressional hearings have pointed to mistakes by the law enforcement
officers, but none has been charged with a crime.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
YabbaDoo
>
>AP wire included.
>
>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>
>I hope ALL of the guilty federal Jack-booted thugs
>rot in hell and or prison!
Not a chance (well prison anyway). This is a civil case. The feds will buy
their way out of this, with YOUR tax dollars, just as they did after Ruby
Ridge.
--
yabba
===========================
yabbadoo<at>bigfoot<dot>com
Jim Moore
dhol...@my-deja.com wrote in article <7lrd1t$u3g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> AP wire included.
>
> If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
> of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
> the ATF and FBI, this is it!
Heavens to Betsy -- and you love those congress guys
when they say something bad about agents.
I guess that's your personal truth-detector, huh?
If they say what you like, they're heroes. If they don't,
they're whitewashers.
Very intelligent (guffaw)
Jim Moore AMAYE
>
> I hope ALL of the guilty federal Jack-booted thugs
> rot in hell and or prison!
>
> dan
Slone
So if none of them were guilty then there is no worry. If you will read the
post I believe his problem is with any agents that may have been guilty of
something. So if no guilt then no problem right?
Slone
>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote in article
Slone
YabbaDoo wrote in message <7lrek3$h0d$1...@ruby.digisys.net>...
>>
>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>>
>>rot in hell and or prison!
>
>their way out of this, with YOUR tax dollars, just as they did after Ruby
>Ridge.
>
>
What I have always wondered about it is why did they doze the whole area and
not let independent investigators in to examine the 'crime scene'
Isnt that the way it is supposed to be? Arent forensics experts and law
enforcement supposed to investigate a crime scene without it being
disturbed?
Slone
David E. Powell
>send.sp...@this.address (YabbaDoo) wrote:
>
>>In article <7lrd1t$u3g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dhol...@my-deja.com says...
>
>>their way out of this, with YOUR tax dollars, just as they did after Ruby
>>Ridge.
>
Yes, and I'm sure you will yukk it up over the dead kids too. Nothing about
that situation was or is laughable.
David E. Powell
>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>AP wire included.
>>
>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>
>
>Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
HE Ran over and bulldozed the compound?
HE ran and mishandled the forensic investigation?
HE told the Hostage Negotiators to take a hike and called in the tanks?
He gassed his kids?
HE fired into the kids' rooms the first day of the attack?
HE failed to have himself arrested on his Sunday jog outside of the
compound, instead ordering a frontal assault?
You credit him with far too much. He certainly has some to answer for, but
not all. Not by a long shot.
>Ain't you the dildoes that want people to accept consequences for
>their actions.
Not a statement, a question, that. The answer is yes. I don't care if they
are a member of the Branch Davidians (Which was a basically cool bunch until
Koresh took over.. having been around since the 30s or so.) or a member of
the FBI Hostage Rescue Team. If they screwed up, I want it heard about,
before someone else gets taken out by a similar operational screwup.
>Anyway, your regurgitation of the NRA slick ads shows about how much
>brain matter you got to independently process information.
Hmm... NRA Slick ad? It looked like a wire story from some news organization
to me, with a little commentary thrown in. Basically your standard "court
minutes" format you would see in most mediums.
>Besides, the thought of roast Koresh STILL makes me giggle.
Yeah. I gather that the thought of all those dead kids really gets you off
too.
john q public
David E. Powell wrote in message ...
>rose...@idt.net wrote in message <378151ae...@news.idt.net>...
>>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>AP wire included.
>>>
>>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>>
>>Why?
>>
>>Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
>>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
>
>
>HE Ran over and bulldozed the compound?
>HE ran and mishandled the forensic investigation?
>HE told the Hostage Negotiators to take a hike and called in the tanks?
>He gassed his kids?
Clinton sent the congressmen to look at information not introduced into the
record
in the House?
>HE fired into the kids' rooms the first day of the attack?
>HE failed to have himself arrested on his Sunday jog outside of the
>compound, instead ordering a frontal assault?
>
>You credit him with far too much. He certainly has some to answer for, but
>not all. Not by a long shot.
>
>>Ain't you the dildoes that want people to accept consequences for
>>their actions.
Please remember this argument the next time you are discussing Clinton!
David E. Powell
>"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>>rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37815246...@news.idt.net>...
>
about
>>that situation was or is laughable.
>
>blew the tops of their heads off.
>
>This was the government that Republicans said was "just fighting a
>civil war", and who now parrots republican lines of argument against
>clinton they heard from the House floor debates.
Yes. It was horrible, and such things happen in Civil wars. About 5000
people are believed dead in Kosovo. MILLIONS died in Rwanda, the Congo, and
a bunch of other African Genocides in the past decade, and where were we
then? After the Somalia debacle, that is? PS - Why accept such things in Our
Nation? Do American lives not have as much importance to you as those of
Kosovars?
PS What do you think that the Albanians have been doing to Serbian oldsters,
women, and kids now? Right in front of NATO troops too. Check out the MSNBC
and CNN sites if you don't believe me... look for stuff like the 30 year old
mentally retarded Serb woman who was raped and hacked to death while her 80
something mother was beaten. The body lay in the house for days because the
old woman feared leaving the house to bury her daughter. NATO troops
patrolling the streets did... (guess what) NOTHING!!!!!
The reporter who found her helped her bury her daughter.
Definitely the fine sort of movement our Gov't should be proud to associate
with. I read in the local press that KLA hard liners are threatening War
with NATO if they are not allowed to assume full control of Kosovo now. They
have spread the message to the people that they (and only they) have won the
war. Check the CNN and MSNBC archives if you don't believe me.
>It's also the political party that supports gunloons, NRA neofascists,
>and every right wing whacko that wants to take on "government" (as
>long as it's controlled by a democrat president).
So, one up on the Democrats, and their most liberal socialist wing. As for
Neofacism, that is horse crap. How can you be against "Big Gov't" and a
fascist? If you want to talk neofascism, look at the tactics of media
manipulation and assault used at Waco. Compare with the likes of Goebbels
and Streicher. ESPECIALLY Streicher.
>So when I hear you shed "crocodile tears" about "children" I don't
>think a whole lot about it.
Friend, I'm sure that you don't think about it at all. I mourn for those at
Littleton and those at Waco. As someone who has worked in Education, and who
has friends in the real business, the future of American Kids has a lot of
meaning for me. I do have a great problem with you cheering that the
Davidians were roasted, and then trying to say that I am wrong for pointing
out that there were kids there as well. Especially when the whole Operation
was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh on his
Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and answer
a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident, comes to
mind.)
David E. Powell
<378f5bae...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:47:51 GMT, rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
>>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>AP wire included.
>>>
>>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>>
>>Why?
>>
>>Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
>>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
>>
>>their actions.
>>
>>brain matter you got to independently process information.
>>
>
>
>A. Mr. Burns
FBI HRT - HOSTAGE ROASTING TEAM
FBI's favorite movie ... "SPEED"
"SHOOT THE HOSTAGE!"
Sarah Brady and Charles Schumer rooted at Waco, then did those "Where have
all... the children gone... " commercials! What heart!
Compaq User
>>
>>>In article <7lrd1t$u3g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dhol...@my-deja.com says...
>>
>>>Not a chance (well prison anyway). This is a civil case. The feds will
buy
>>>their way out of this, with YOUR tax dollars, just as they did after Ruby
>>>Ridge.
>>
>>Or, on the other hand, we get to laugh some more at Koresh.
>
>
>that situation was or is laughable.
Oh, but you're wrong. Rosey enjoys laughing, even with his teeth clenched.
Laughing about dead children? I don't know about that. Let him tell you.
Compaq User
>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 02:03:30 GMT, rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
>>"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>>
about
>>>that situation was or is laughable.
>>
>>blew the tops of their heads off.
>>
>>This was the government that Republicans said was "just fighting a
>>civil war", and who now parrots republican lines of argument against
>>clinton they heard from the House floor debates.
>>
>>and every right wing whacko that wants to take on "government" (as
>>long as it's controlled by a democrat president).
>>
>>think a whole lot about it.
>
>uncompassion your only and best attribute?
Oh, God! I wish I could find a Compassionate Liberal... Maybe they don't
exist.
a friend
>
> David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
> > was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh on
> his
> > Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and
> answer
> > a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident, comes
> to
> > mind.)
> >
> with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
>
> The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
> his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
> death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
> he shoots to kill.
Yup, those damn pet kittens are a *real* threat to you tough
BATF guys, aren't they?
Oh. You said "policy". You idiots ignore that anyway...
Compaq User
> "David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> >rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37815246...@news.idt.net>...
>
> >Yes, and I'm sure you will yukk it up over the dead kids too. Nothing
about
> >that situation was or is laughable.
>
> The day that NATO bombed Kosovo, Serbs stood behind 4 year old and
> blew the tops of their heads off.
>
> This was the government that Republicans said was "just fighting a
> civil war", and who now parrots republican lines of argument against
> clinton they heard from the House floor debates.
>
> It's also the political party that supports gunloons, NRA neofascists,
> and every right wing whacko that wants to take on "government" (as
> long as it's controlled by a democrat president).
>
> So when I hear you shed "crocodile tears" about "children" I don't
> think a whole lot about it.
Of course not. You're mean-spirited and full of vitriol.
Steven Payne
Jim Moore wrote:
>
> dhol...@my-deja.com wrote in article <7lrd1t$u3g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > AP wire included.
> >
> > If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
> > of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
> > the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>
> Heavens to Betsy -- and you love those congress guys
> when they say something bad about agents.
> I guess that's your personal truth-detector, huh?
> If they say what you like, they're heroes. If they don't,
> they're whitewashers.
> Very intelligent (guffaw)
>
> Jim Moore AMAYE
>
Snip
What was it about the prosecutions that got you going Jim? Could it be
they Lied to congress and the truth has escaped?? Oh wait you can
justify the killing of women and children. Now that is a BATF trick, but
the illusion always fades and the truth will set you free Jim. Unless
you were there?
Steve
Compaq User
>"Compaq User" <rohre...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Oh, God! I wish I could find a Compassionate Liberal... Maybe they don't
>>exist.
>
>republican party, CPAC, Scaife, Bennett, and Starr unleash an
>unprecedented smear campaign and your inablity to see how ignorant and
>bigoted you loons are.
Once again your broad brush fails to paint an accurate picture. Which is
easy to do, I'm afraid, when your world is mostly black and white, where
everyone who differs a whit is branded an "ignorant and bigoted loon."
Someday, Rosey, perhaps you'll graduate from paint-by-numbers.
I'm not bigoted, and strive not be ignorant. I don't mind the loon moniker
though: a noble, soaring, aquatic bird.
KC
dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
> AP wire included.
>
> If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
> of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
> the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>
> rot in hell and or prison!
>
I wholeheartedly concur.
>
> Congressional hearings have pointed to mistakes by the law
enforcement
> officers, but none has been charged with a crime.
That about sums it up, doesn't it.
We can always hope, but the feral govt. doesn't allow itself to be sued.
Randy Weaver was paid off for the murders of his wife and son and dog. 1
million for each loss, I believe. I would imagine a similar scenario
here.
FIGHT THE NWO! ELECT CONSTITUTIONALISTS!!!
"You know the one thing thats wrong with this
country? Everyone gets the chance to have their
fair say." Klinton 5/29/93
rose...@idt.net
rose...@idt.net
>AP wire included.
>
>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
Why?
Mike
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<378f5bae...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:47:51 GMT, rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
>
>A. Mr. Burns
>
>
>Ecrasons l'infame
>
>Join The War On Right Wing Ignorance:
>http://clusterone.home.mindspring.com/
>
>========================================================================
>"As a prisoner of war in North Vietnam I slept more soundly knowing that
George
>W. Bush was defending the shores of Texas from invasion."
>
> --Senator John
McCain, R-Az.
>========================================================================
rose...@idt.net
rose...@idt.net
>rose...@idt.net wrote in message <378151ae...@news.idt.net>...
>>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>>AP wire included.
>>>
>>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>>
>>Why?
>>
>>Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
>>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
>
>
>HE Ran over and bulldozed the compound?
Why were they there?
>HE ran and mishandled the forensic investigation?
What has that got to do with why they were there.
>HE told the Hostage Negotiators to take a hike and called in the tanks?
Why were they there?
>He gassed his kids?
Why were they put into that situation to have to use tear gas?
>HE fired into the kids' rooms the first day of the attack?
Why were they there?
>HE failed to have himself arrested on his Sunday jog outside of the
>compound, instead ordering a frontal assault?
Why (especially since you loons are so high on responsibility,
consequences, etc) was he going to have to be arrested?
>You credit him with far too much. He certainly has some to answer for, but
>not all. Not by a long shot.
He was served warrants with the SAME care and determination all
American have, with DUE PROCESS.
His choices, NOT BATF, the FBI, propelled and escalated this into this
tradgegy,
SHam arguments because YOU have some peculiar loony notion about
"government" just never quite "got it" and still don't.
>Hmm... NRA Slick ad? It looked like a wire story from some news organization
>to me, with a little commentary thrown in. Basically your standard "court
>minutes" format you would see in most mediums.
the NRA immediately after the Koresh roast ran "slick ads" in all
their magazines, phamplets. You do remember why Bush told the NRA to
shove his lifetime membership, don't you?
the term "jack booted, government thugs" is an NRA invention. They
poured millions into the next election using that kind of inflammatory
device and now we got a different "stripe" of jack booted thugs in
Washington..........except now they wave a flag and a Bible.
>Yeah. I gather that the thought of all those dead kids really gets you off
>too.
Koresh planned to let them take no prisoners.
NathanH
>"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
Care to take off those cobalt-colored glasses, Roselle? Or is
Jim Moore
David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
> was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh on
his
> Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and
answer
> a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident, comes
to
> mind.)
>
Uh huh. My wife's uncle is a college prof, and he argued
with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
he shoots to kill.
The learned prof argued that we should "shoot the
gun out of the suspect's hand."
Similar to Mr Powell's suggestion.
It's so easy -- when you're not there, you don't
know the situation and you're not charged with the
duty of doing anything -- to tell others "you should...."
Jim Moore
Jim String
>
>
>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
>> was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh on
>his
>> Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and
>answer
>> a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident, comes
>to
>> mind.)
>>
> Uh huh. My wife's uncle is a college prof, and he argued
> with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
>
> The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
> his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
> death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
> he shoots to kill.
"Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
in fact murders.
NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
to stop.
Best,
Jim
YabbaDoo
>
>"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>>rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37815246...@news.idt.net>...
>
>>Yes, and I'm sure you will yukk it up over the dead kids too. Nothing about
>>that situation was or is laughable.
>
>The day that NATO bombed Kosovo, Serbs stood behind 4 year old and
>blew the tops of their heads off.
Yeah, right! I understand Clinton boiled and ate a few babies that same day,
eh?
rose...@idt.net
>>The day that NATO bombed Kosovo, Serbs stood behind 4 year old and
>>blew the tops of their heads off.
>>
>>This was the government that Republicans said was "just fighting a
>>civil war", and who now parrots republican lines of argument against
>>clinton they heard from the House floor debates.
>
>
>Yes. It was horrible, and such things happen in Civil wars.
And giving tacit support to a scumbag like Milosevic simply to provide
politica fodder against a political enemy is the sewer of republican
"values".
>About 5000 people are believed dead in Kosovo.
And how many MORE do you think would be, if those 40,000 troops, MUPP
forces, and 400 tanks were unfettered going through Kosovo?
Systematic extermination began LONG before a bomb was dropped.
> MILLIONS died in Rwanda, the Congo, and
>a bunch of other African Genocides in the past decade, and where were we
>then?
We were not engaged in negotioations that were direct results of 3
other wars a war criminal started. We were in an area of influence
that is clearly in our interest (and a stable Europe) to influence, we
were one of 19 Nations engaged in an ongoing operation, logistically
we were more capable of reaction, and Rwanda, etal, is NOT where two
major world conflagrations cause untold and unspeakable horrors in
this century and it is not a place where any POSSIBLE help or
coalition could be established.
>Do American lives not have as much importance to you as those of
>Kosovars?
If you base your religious beliefs in the JudeoChristian theology,
there shouldn't be.
However given the abject hypocrisy of the conservative republicans in
"morals, principles, and values" I doubt if you should get into that
debate.
>PS What do you think that the Albanians have been doing to Serbian oldsters,
>women, and kids now? Right in front of NATO troops too. Check out the MSNBC
>and CNN sites if you don't believe me...
I believe you.
But whatever is "happening" is NOT sanctioned government policy as was
the policies of a war criminal that republicans tacity gave comfort
to.
>look for stuff like the 30 year old
>mentally retarded Serb woman who was raped and hacked to death while her 80
>something mother was beaten. The body lay in the house for days because the
>old woman feared leaving the house to bury her daughter. NATO troops
>patrolling the streets did... (guess what) NOTHING!!!!!
And "anecdotal" evidence has never won a debate. It's "non-argument"
or fallacy argument.
> I read in the local press that KLA hard liners are threatening War
>with NATO if they are not allowed to assume full control of Kosovo now. They
>have spread the message to the people that they (and only they) have won the
>war. Check the CNN and MSNBC archives if you don't believe me.
I belive you. And it stands to reason (human reason) that they
probably would. After what they just went through, it would be just
as spurious to suggest that the KLA was "just engaging in Civil war"
>>It's also the political party that supports gunloons, NRA neofascists,
>>and every right wing whacko that wants to take on "government" (as
>>long as it's controlled by a democrat president).
>
>
>So, one up on the Democrats, and their most liberal socialist wing. As for
>Neofacism, that is horse crap. How can you be against "Big Gov't" and a
>fascist? If you want to talk neofascism, look at the tactics of media
>manipulation and assault used at Waco. Compare with the likes of Goebbels
>and Streicher. ESPECIALLY Streicher.
The laws of the United states were fairly, fully and with ALL due
process applied at Waco.
Koresh refused his duty to submit to a legitimate demand by a
legitimate authority, for a legitimate reason.
The ONLY resolution provided for in a dispute such as that is to let
courts decide the proper course.
All Koresh had to do, was to allow himself to be placed under arrest
and let a literal army of legal corps defend him. If O.J can get off
with that much evidence against him, some religious freak sure the
hell ain't gonna hang for weapons violations.
IF, he was found guilty, then by God he should be sent to jail.
>>So when I hear you shed "crocodile tears" about "children" I don't
>>think a whole lot about it.
>
>
>Friend, I'm sure that you don't think about it at all. I mourn for those at
>Littleton and those at Waco. As someone who has worked in Education, and who
>has friends in the real business, the future of American Kids has a lot of
>meaning for me. I do have a great problem with you cheering that the
>Davidians were roasted, and then trying to say that I am wrong for pointing
>out that there were kids there as well. Especially when the whole Operation
>was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh on his
>Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and answer
>a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident, comes to
>mind.)
And your reasoning is spurious and facetious.
Koresh was in violation of a legitimate order to surrender. He was
NOT "just a run of the mill ordinary "joe" out for a jog". If you're
in "education" and don't understand the first thing about fallacy
argument, then you should retrain.
Your appeal is "evasion" by emotional appeal, "innappropriate appeal"
and practically every oversimplification fallacy imaginable.
The "children" were no more considered "important" in that fiasco by
Koresh, than Dr. Mengele did of his subjects. When, in the course of
your anti govenment theatrics and rhetoric, choose to ignore simple
basic facts, (such as Koresh being the precipitant, not the
authorities) you make mockery of the rule of law that allows him to
exhibit most of his silly crap anyway.
The "children" are dead. Koresh, not the government, caused it. And
NOTHING is going to make me change my opinion (based on the facts and
evidence) that short of the United States government surrenduring to
koresh, would have changed that. Given his apocolyptic state of mind,
if the attempt to disorient them with Gas wouldn't have pushed him,
he'd have found another reason.
If you MUST, use legitimate common sense to criticize authority on
real issues, such as undertraining in religious nuts and right wing
loons mental states, or chain of command, but for chrisake stop the
anti government bullshit.
>
rose...@idt.net
Dealing with right wing gunloons, hypocritical social conservatives
religious and conspiricist nuts always brings out the best in me.
rose...@idt.net
rose...@idt.net
>
>Of course not. You're mean-spirited and full of vitriol.
See, there you go again.....
Still can't arrive at a reality based conclusion after viewing
evidence.
David E. Powell
>>>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>AP wire included.
>>>>
>>>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>>>
>>>Why?
>>>
>>>Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
>>>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
>>
>>HE Ran over and bulldozed the compound?
>
>Why were they there?
Supposedly to rescue hostages. They did this by gassing, knowing the gas
masks there could not fit kids. This was intended to drive the parents out.
>>HE ran and mishandled the forensic investigation?
>
>What has that got to do with why they were there.
Forensics is the study of when and in what order things happened. It shows
what happened to see if it jives with other accounts. It also is one of the
strongest measures of prosecution. Why screw it up deliberately?
>>HE told the Hostage Negotiators to take a hike and called in the tanks?
>
>Why were they there?
To try and save lives. They were dismissed. The armored vehicles rolled.
They did not apparently have the same goal in mind. Next question.
>>He gassed his kids?
>
>Why were they put into that situation to have to use tear gas?
Because it was banned by International Law of war? If the kids were Iraqi
guards or Serb paramilitaries, it would be illegal. They were American kids,
however, who were hostages to be rescued, so pop one in there!
>>HE fired into the kids' rooms the first day of the attack?
>
>Why were they there?
Yeah, why would they want to shoot up the kids' rooms deliberately? You tell
me!
>>HE failed to have himself arrested on his Sunday jog outside of the
>>compound, instead ordering a frontal assault?
>
>Why (especially since you loons are so high on responsibility,
>consequences, etc) was he going to have to be arrested?
As not much evidence was found, that also is a darn good question. Also,
when you look at the evidence found in comparison to the scale of the
action, it is another darn good question why they didn't just bust him on
his Sunday jog or walk to the door and look around like they had done
without incident several times before.
>>You credit him with far too much. He certainly has some to answer for, but
>>not all. Not by a long shot.
>
>He was served warrants with the SAME care and determination all
>American have, with DUE PROCESS.
Some have testified that the serving went like this... BAM BAM BAM WE HAVE A
WARRANT BAM BAM BAM
It may not be true, but choppers and guys all in black charging a building
full of apocalyptic folk is wery hairy... plus the shooting into the kids'
rooms.. illustrating similar policy to the gassing perhaps? That they would
surrender in hopes of saving their childrens' lives?
>His choices, NOT BATF, the FBI, propelled and escalated this into this
>tradgegy,
It was a combination.
>SHam arguments because YOU have some peculiar loony notion about
>"government" just never quite "got it" and still don't.
You mean the idea that "HRT" should mean Hostage Rescue Team, not Hostage
Roasting Team? Heck, the Germans as Munich in 1972 didn't mess up this bad.
Also, their guys sure didn't get promoted afterwards!
>>Hmm... NRA Slick ad? It looked like a wire story from some news
organization
>>to me, with a little commentary thrown in. Basically your standard "court
>>minutes" format you would see in most mediums.
>
>the NRA immediately after the Koresh roast ran "slick ads" in all
>their magazines, phamplets.
You are not answering the question regarding the post you responded to.
You do remember why Bush told the NRA to
>shove his lifetime membership, don't you?
That was before Koresh and Waco. QED.
>the term "jack booted, government thugs" is an NRA invention. They
>poured millions into the next election using that kind of inflammatory
>device and now we got a different "stripe" of jack booted thugs in
>Washington..........except now they wave a flag and a Bible.
It was a Democrat Congressman (Dingell, IIRC) who said that. He was quoted
word for word along with other Congressional blurbs. That sound was your
whole arguement in that paragraph flying out the window.
>>Yeah. I gather that the thought of all those dead kids really gets you off
>>too.
>
>Koresh planned to let them take no prisoners.
Perhaps.. but the tactics of the besieging forces were arguably designed
without that prospect in mind.
David E. Powell
Jim Moore wrote in message <01bec760$05b6b380$72f25ad1@default>...
>
>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
>> was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh on
>his
>> Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and
>answer
>> a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident, comes
>to
>> mind.)
>>
> with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
>
> The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
> his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
> death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
> he shoots to kill.
>
> gun out of the suspect's hand."
OK - The prof is wrong there. You shoot to stop, to preserve safety of
officers and others. No doubt.
> Similar to Mr Powell's suggestion.
> It's so easy -- when you're not there, you don't
> know the situation and you're not charged with the
> duty of doing anything -- to tell others "you should...."
Alright, I accept that from the tactical standpoint. However, I was not
referring to tactical, but strategic, decisions. Even someone not "in the
biz" can wonder when there are precedents in going to the door for searches
and taking Koresh in to ask a few questions, or the Sunday jogs, which were
documented by agents who had noted his schedule. That certainly is not in
the realm of a College Professor suggesting somebody do a Wild West Matinee
move during a life-or-death gun battle.
P.S. I have been there, had a History prof who lunched with other profs at
the White House tell me that in Srebrenicia, the three Bosnian guys I saw
with beat up tommy guns were equal to the Serb tank columns, hence our arms
embargo against Bosnia at the time was fair. Well, obviously the History
professor had not studied the news, which told quite well about who won that
"battle."
Sort of like someone who had never obtained knowledge on pistol shooting or
police responsibility speaking on those subjects. The sad thing is, this guy
had studied it.. he just missed the point.
> Jim Moore
David E. Powell
<37905c11...@news.mindspring.com>...
There is a difference between worship and mourning. I do not worship some
dead idiot named Koresh. I do mourn dead children who were shot up, gassed
and burned in a so called "rescue" effort.
FBI HRT - Hostage Roasting Team
FBI Movie of the week - Speed (Shoot the hostage!)
Bubba
>On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:27:10 -0700, "Slone"
><kymi...@geocitiesREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>Why don't you suggest to the Texas Rangers that you think they are
>part of some great liberal conspiracy.
>
>I'd pay to see that.
>
> Jim
Where in the heck did ANYONE attack the Texas Rangers? Anyone remotely
familiar with this case knows that the Texas law enforcement agencies were the
only one's with anything on the ball out there.
The Monk
wrote:
<snipped>
>"Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
>in fact murders.
>
>NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
>to stop.
>
>Best,
>Jim
Jim,
So true. the Coast Guard trains it's boarding officers and
various other LE related folks the same way. You shoot to 'stop'.
The intent is to prevent any further actions on behalf of the perp,
not necessarily to kill 'em, though that may be the result of shooting
'center mass' as is done in training.
regards,
drew
no one of consequence
Compaq User <rohre...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
]rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37819607...@news.idt.net>...
]
]Once again your broad brush fails to paint an accurate picture. Which is
]easy to do, I'm afraid, when your world is mostly black and white, where
]everyone who differs a whit is branded an "ignorant and bigoted loon."
]Someday, Rosey, perhaps you'll graduate from paint-by-numbers.
]
]I'm not bigoted, and strive not be ignorant. I don't mind the loon moniker
]though: a noble, soaring, aquatic bird.
Oddly enough, his broad-brushed labeling of people whom he disagrees with
as 'bigoted loons' is itself a form of bigotry.
--
|Patrick Chester (aka: claypigeon, Sinapus) wol...@io.com |
|"You know I like her. Scares the hell out of me sometimes, but I do like|
|her. Just, uh, don't tell her that." Dr. Franklin about Ivanova. -B5 |
|Wittier remarks always come to mind just after sending your article.... |
Michael Zarlenga
: Uh huh. My wife's uncle is a college prof, and he argued
: with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
: The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
: his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
: death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
: he shoots to kill.
: The learned prof argued that we should "shoot the
: gun out of the suspect's hand."
Uh huh. Does anyone still believe documented liar and fabricator
of quotes Jim Moore when he offers "evidence?"
How many times must the author and ex-ATF agent be caught lying?
See http://www.firstnethou.com/dcd/gunsite/moore.html for a well-
documented exposes of some Liar Moore's recent lies ...
--
-- Mike Zarlenga
finger zarl...@conan.ids.net for PGP public key
James Dibenedetto
: >
: >>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
: >>
: >>Ain't you the dildoes that want people to accept consequences for
: >>their actions.
: >>
: >>Anyway, your regurgitation of the NRA slick ads shows about how much
: >>brain matter you got to independently process information.
: >>
: >>Besides, the thought of roast Koresh STILL makes me giggle.
You can say that Koresh deserved to die. You can say that it's good for
the community that he's dead. You can say that he brought it all on
himself.
But to laugh, to take pleasure, in the thought that a fellow human being -
no matter how misguided or evil you find him - was burned to death makes
you a sick, sick person, Roselle.
Civillized human beings don't laugh at the painful deaths of other humans.
But I guess people like you do.
--
James John DiBenedetto | "...and you want to look in the bathrooms
star...@primenet.com | and see what is written there on the walls,
Graduate School of Political | and take a peek in the furnace room, and
Management '96 | perhaps, quite casually, stick a good-
| sized pin in a long-term employee and see
| if she howls." - William Browning Spencer
Jim Patrick
>He was served warrants with the SAME care and determination all
>American have, with DUE PROCESS.
That's a lie. No warrants were ever served.
Warrants were issued to the BATF by a magistrate.
BATF failed to carry the warrants -- a legal requirement.
IF the raid had 'succeeded' the case would have failed on technical
grounds of no warrant present at the arrest and search. It's a legal
requirement far older -- and far more important -- than Miranda.
Jim Patrick
"Freud associates retarded sexual or emotional development
not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. -- Kates."
john q public
Mike wrote in message ...
>Let's see what the courts have to say, asswipe.
>Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
><378f5bae...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:47:51 GMT, rose...@idt.net wrote:
>>
>>>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>AP wire included.
>>>>
>>>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>>>
>>>Why?
>>>
>>>Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
>>>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
>>>
>>>Ain't you the dildoes that want people to accept consequences for
>>>their actions.
>>>
>>>Anyway, your regurgitation of the NRA slick ads shows about how much
>>>brain matter you got to independently process information.
>>>
>>>Besides, the thought of roast Koresh STILL makes me giggle.
>>
Connie
>YabbaDoo wrote in message <7lrek3$h0d$1...@ruby.digisys.net>...
>>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno, the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>>> Branch Davidian Suit Will Continue
>>> WACO, Texas (AP) ? A federal judge has cleared the way for a lawsuit that claims the federal government is responsible for the fiery and deadly end to the 1993 Branch Davidian standoff.
>>> ``I think what the judge did is a great victory for the Davidians and for the country,'' Caddell said. ``Our folks can't be happier, and look forward to having their day in court.''
>>> The lawsuit ? filed by surviving Davidians and the relatives of the dead ? challenges the government's conclusion that the Davidians started the fire and that they also shot first during the federal raid on their compound.
>>> David Koresh and about 80 followers died in the fire that ended the 51-day standoff.
>>> The defendants include Attorney General Janet Reno and top officials of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the FBI, including then-Director William Sessions.
>>> ``We're still reviewing the decision at this point,'' said Myron Marlin, a Justice Department spokesman.
>>> The multimillion-dollar lawsuit has been on hold since early May while an appeals court considered whether Smith should be removed from the case. The plaintiffs wanted another judge because Smith has ruled in criminal cases involving Branch Davidians.
>>> The Davidians contend that when federal agents punched through the walls and fired tear gas into the cult compound on April 19, 1993, the canisters ignited, burning the building and the people inside.
>>> Congressional hearings have pointed to mistakes by the law enforcement officers, but none has been charged with a crime.
>Slone
Jerry Morris
Because we might have refrained from violating NATO charter and OUR
laws on warfare (no declaration of war) and not started an illegal and
immoral bombing campaign that only made matters worse for the
Kosovars. We are in effect war criminals! We did not rescue, but
stood off like cowards and lob stones at the bully, while he was
supposedly cutting someone to pieces.
It would have been better to have not gotten involved with NATOs
(Clintons) dirty war. By your reasoning, YOU are personally
repsonsible for Ruby Ridge and Waco and any number of the federal
governments high crimes against its own Citizens. SHAME on YOU!
You can sit there and hear the LIES, see them proven and believe even
yet still another. I will NOT! I will look to the record. The
Hatfields and Mc Coys of the Balkans were "rescued" from their own
foolishness by our criminal president.
Bottomline, it was wrong.
Jerry Morris
"I will give up my guns when politicians
are honest,,,,,, maybe.
Jerry Morris
>"Compaq User" <rohre...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Oh, God! I wish I could find a Compassionate Liberal... Maybe they don't
>>exist.
>
>We all were until you dildoes let the religious reich take over the
>republican party, CPAC, Scaife, Bennett, and Starr unleash an
>unprecedented smear campaign and your inablity to see how ignorant and
>bigoted you loons are.
>
>
You lie poorly. Who unleashed Starr? Who recommended him and
confirmed him?
Jerry Morris
>dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>AP wire included.
>>
>>If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
>>of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
>>the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>
>Why?
>
>Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
>burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
>
>Ain't you the dildoes that want people to accept consequences for
>their actions.
>
>Anyway, your regurgitation of the NRA slick ads shows about how much
>brain matter you got to independently process information.
>
>Besides, the thought of roast Koresh STILL makes me giggle.
>
>
I might have replied to one of your posts. Disregard my post. I
don't debate with Tyrants I'd sooner kill than share the air with.
Jim String
Yep. The foundation of crime is the intent. If anyone shoots intending
to kill they are a murderer. If the perp dies after shooting to stop,
oh well. If he lives, oh well.
The hysterical antigun weenies who argue that "omigod, guns are
designed to kill and ought to be banned" just crack me up, or they
would if the issue weren't so serious. My carry handguns are certainly
not designed to kill, if they were they'd be instruments of murder.
My .45 and 9mm are designed to stop and that's the only lawful use
of them, other than target shooting. Sure, they _can_ kill but so can
just about anything else, the point is they weren't designed for killing.
Best,
Jim
sandr...@my-deja.com
rose...@idt.net wrote:
> "Compaq User" <rohre...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Oh, God! I wish I could find a Compassionate Liberal... Maybe they
don't
> >exist.
>
> We all were until you dildoes let the religious reich take over the
> republican party, CPAC, Scaife, Bennett, and Starr unleash an
> unprecedented smear campaign and your inablity to see how ignorant and
> bigoted you loons are.
>
http://www.angelfire.com/tn/daybreak/survival.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
NathanH
<rohre...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>NathanH wrote in message <37866b3e...@news.giganews.com>...
>>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 02:03:30 GMT, rose...@idt.net wrote:
>>
>>>"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37815246...@news.idt.net>...
>>>
>>>>Yes, and I'm sure you will yukk it up over the dead kids too. Nothing
>about
>>>>that situation was or is laughable.
>>>
>>>The day that NATO bombed Kosovo, Serbs stood behind 4 year old and
>>>blew the tops of their heads off.
>>>
>>>This was the government that Republicans said was "just fighting a
>>>civil war", and who now parrots republican lines of argument against
>>>clinton they heard from the House floor debates.
>>>
>>>It's also the political party that supports gunloons, NRA neofascists,
>>>and every right wing whacko that wants to take on "government" (as
>>>long as it's controlled by a democrat president).
>>>
>>>So when I hear you shed "crocodile tears" about "children" I don't
>>>think a whole lot about it.
>>
>> Care to take off those cobalt-colored glasses, Roselle? Or is
>>uncompassion your only and best attribute?
>
>Oh, God! I wish I could find a Compassionate Liberal... Maybe they don't
>exist.
>
You know, I bet this is a matter of semantics. I'll see if I
can't find a politically correct dictionary on the Web that will
provide me with the Liberal's definition of 'compassion'. I'll be
back in a bit....
Slone
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<378e5b30...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:27:10 -0700, "Slone"
>
>
>>What I have always wondered about it is why did they doze the whole area
and
>>not let independent investigators in to examine the 'crime scene'
>>Isnt that the way it is supposed to be? Arent forensics experts and law
>>enforcement supposed to investigate a crime scene without it being
>>disturbed?
>
>part of some great liberal conspiracy.
>
>I'd pay to see that.
>
> Jim
>
Rangers and Some great conspiracy. Dont try to answer the question No you
wouldnt do that . You just have to come back with a smart ass remark. Why
cant you just suggest an answer? Or at least refute what I have said with
some basis?
Slone
Randy Sweeney
unarmed man in NYC and a barely conscious girls in Riverside?
WHO has this policy of shoot to stop?
Jim String wrote in message ...
>In article <01bec760$05b6b380$72f25ad1@default>, Jim Moore wrote:
>>
>>
>>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
>>> was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh on
>>his
>>> Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and
>>answer
>>> a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident, comes
>>to
>>> mind.)
>>>
>> Uh huh. My wife's uncle is a college prof, and he argued
>> with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
>>
>> The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
>> his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
>> death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
>> he shoots to kill.
>
Randy Sweeney
rose...@idt.net wrote in message <378195bf...@news.idt.net>...
>jpj...@psbnewton.com (NathanH) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 02:03:30 GMT, rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
>> Care to take off those cobalt-colored glasses, Roselle? Or is
>>uncompassion your only and best attribute?
>
Slone
on without worshipping Koresh. Where the hell do you come up with this
stuff? Personally I didnt know the man and I dont give a damn about him. But
I am damn concerned to know why this went down the way it did.
And I think they ought to investigate it and if any guilt is found then I
would be gald to see punishment. And if no guilt is found? Oh well.
But in the eyes of Voltie and the like you can't be concerned about anything
like this unless you worship Koresh. Anyone see anything wrong with that
picture?
So if the media is able to "demonize" any group or individual and it
happens that they are burned or shot or gassed or whatever may be handy no
one better not question it in any way because if they do they will be
branded as "worshippers" of the evil wrong-doers.
And Volt you can insult and act just as dumb as you feel like when you
reply and call names and say irrelevant stuff to my post but Im not gonna
lower myself to that. Question and concern is a damned important thing in
this life and if we just lay back and say "oh they were bad people so they
got what was coming to them" then we are poor excuses for humans.
Or am I wrong? Maybe thats the way humans are.
Slone
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<37905c11...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 00:48:50 GMT, rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
>>send.sp...@this.address (YabbaDoo) wrote:
>>
buy
>>>their way out of this, with YOUR tax dollars, just as they did after Ruby
>>>Ridge.
>
>
>These worshipers of Jesus of Waco are a dim witted lot!
>
Jim Moore
David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
<snipped stuff available in previous post>
> > It's so easy -- when you're not there, you don't
> > know the situation and you're not charged with the
> > duty of doing anything -- to tell others "you should...."
>
>
> Alright, I accept that from the tactical standpoint. However, I was not
> referring to tactical, but strategic, decisions. Even someone not "in the
> biz" can wonder when there are precedents in going to the door for
searches
> and taking Koresh in to ask a few questions, or the Sunday jogs, which
were
> documented by agents who had noted his schedule.
The assumption among many is that agents never considered
or attempted what you suggest.
The fact is that, while agents preferred and attempted
this strategy, the rear exit/entrance to the premises Koresh
had begun calling Ranch Apocolypse could not be seen from
the only observation post available on that flat, unobstructed
terrain. Koresh habitually came and went via a road over a
rise and below the vision of surveilling agents.
The option of flooding Waco with enough agents to
be sure of spotting Koresh when he visited the town was
not feasible unless the agents wanted to alert everyone to
their presence.
Facts in the preceeding two paragraphs were
established during Treasury's investigation and, later,
during public congressional hearings. Apparently, these
facts somehow escape the notice of those who prefer
to present a totally negative image of ATF.
Well, that's their problem.
Unfortunately, and unbeknownst to the agents,
personnel at an ambulance service which had been asked
to remain available blabbed to a TV reporter who blabbed
to Koresh's brother-in-law about an hour before the raid.
Jim Moore
Jim Moore
Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
<slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
<snipped stuff available in previous post>
>
> "Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
> in fact murders.
>
> NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
> to stop.
>
> Best,
> Jim
>
Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
he's given me his life. No second chances to make
my kids orphans or my wife a widow. It's my
belief that it's preferable to kill two criminals
than to have one criminal kill me.
Aw g'wan, call me sentimental.
Now with kitty cats, of course, it's
different. I always carry a dog (an NRA poodle)
to deal with those threats :-)
Jim Moore AMAYE
Slone
someone else said..But you didnt see that so you just figured you would try
to school the guy and call him sweetie and tell him he was wrong for even
replying
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<378cb677...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:08:13 GMT, "Randy Sweeney" <rswe...@Home.com>
>wrote:
>
>>So this is why we have multiple officers emptying their automatics into an
>>unarmed man in NYC and a barely conscious girls in Riverside?
>>
>>WHO has this policy of shoot to stop?
>
>What does that have to do with Jesus of Waco ordering fuel oil to be
>poured on the walls of his compound, Sweetie.
>
>See the Subject header above.
>
>>Jim String wrote in message ...
>>>In article <01bec760$05b6b380$72f25ad1@default>, Jim Moore wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
>>>>> was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting Koresh
on
>>>>his
>>>>> Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in and
>>>>answer
>>>>> a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident,
comes
>>>>to
>>>>> mind.)
>>>>>
>>>> Uh huh. My wife's uncle is a college prof, and he argued
>>>> with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
>>>>
>>>> The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
>>>> his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
>>>> death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
>>>> he shoots to kill.
>>>
>>>"Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
>>>in fact murders.
>>>
>>>NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
>>>to stop.
>
Slone
>"What I have always wondered about it is why did they doze the whole
>area and not let independent investigators in to examine the 'crime
>scene' Isnt that the way it is supposed to be? Arent forensics experts
>and law enforcement supposed to investigate a crime scene without it
>being disturbed?"
>
>
> Jim
So what you are saying is that they are not supposed to investigate a crime
scene? Hey bud you aint schooling nobody here so dont get all high headed
there. I think you are full of shit myself. So if I wonder why they didnt
investigate the crime scene properly I am suggesting conspiracy and in need
of schooling????? I guess the real point here is that I am stupid for even
replying to one of your posts cause I know you aint got nothin to say. So
you say they investigated the scene properly? Yeah right And I bet you go
"baaaa baaa baaa " too dont ya?
Slone
David E. Powell
>Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
><slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
>
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
>>
>> in fact murders.
>>
>> NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
>> to stop.
>>
>> Jim
>>
> Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> he's given me his life. No second chances to make
> my kids orphans or my wife a widow. It's my
> belief that it's preferable to kill two criminals
> than to have one criminal kill me.
Fine. As an LEO, if threatened with deadly force, you have the right to
respond. This is not a problem...
> Aw g'wan, call me sentimental.
> Now with kitty cats, of course, it's
> different. I always carry a dog (an NRA poodle)
> to deal with those threats :-)
However, you like to sic dogs on cats? If this is serious, a tendency to
abuse animals is very disturbing psychologically. Hope you are just BSing
along on that one.
> Jim Moore AMAYE
Sincerely,
David Powell
Quayle 2000!
Jonathan Bazemore
Jim String wrote:
> > Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> > he's given me his life. No second chances to make
> > my kids orphans or my wife a widow. It's my
> >
> >
> > Jim Moore AMAYE
>
> Fine. If I'm on the jury I'll vote to convict you of murder and, I
> suspect, so will lots of other folks.
>
> No one is allowed to shoot to kill. Period. If you intend to kill and
> succeed you are a murderer.
>
Wrong. Lethal force is legal to repel attempted lethal force. It's self
defense.
Of course, the intent would be to stop the attack--unfortunately, there isn't
much room to be nice, unless you could shoot the gun out of the attacker's
hand like Bill Cody. Odds not good.
Steve Hix
Robert_Frenchu*DELETE*@yahoo.com (Robert Frenchu) wrote:
> On 6 Jul 1999 18:38:04 GMT, "Jim Moore" <aut...@ime.net> wrote:
>
> >Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
> ><slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
> >
> > <snipped stuff available in previous post>
> >>
> >> "Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
> >> in fact murders.
> >>
> >> NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
> >> to stop.
>
> > Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> > he's given me his life.
>
> Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! A new Jim emerges- Jim the Tough Guy.
>
> Can you still hold your service wheelgun without shaking too bad,
> Jimmy?
Doesn't have to: he just uses his attack poodle.
Steven Payne
The most credible part of the whole thing is they flattened the crime
scene, No we had no arms on helicopters sir!! Then the press photo's of
the hueys armed so yes I agree slone. The facts as stated from the
hearings I watched stated that the house opened fire on the BATF (Hey
Jim) Yet the testimony and film footage shows the BATF opening fire,
Alas the facts are they opened fire but hey those who choose to believe
a lie will always say the other guy started it! Oh here's a good
question for you where did the front door vanish to and why where the
press moved way back? Answer, the legalized slaughter would have enraged
the average human being not to mention Citizen of a free Country. Jim go
plug yourself in..
Steve
h0mi
rose...@idt.net wrote:
>
> "Compaq User" <rohre...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >Oh, God! I wish I could find a Compassionate Liberal... Maybe they don't
> >exist.
>
> We all were until you dildoes let the religious reich take over the
> republican party, CPAC, Scaife, Bennett, and Starr unleash an
> unprecedented smear campaign and your inablity to see how ignorant and
> bigoted you loons are.
If there was a smear campaign against Clinton, the perpetrators of such
campaigned learned their lessons from the democrats relentless attacks
on reagan/bush during the 80s.
h0mi
"David E. Powell" wrote:
>
> rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37816538...@news.idt.net>...
> >"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> >>HE ran and mishandled the forensic investigation?
> >
> >What has that got to do with why they were there.
>
> Forensics is the study of when and in what order things happened. It shows
> what happened to see if it jives with other accounts. It also is one of the
> strongest measures of prosecution. Why screw it up deliberately?
The missing front door comes to mind.
> >>HE told the Hostage Negotiators to take a hike and called in the tanks?
> >
> >Why were they there?
"They there"? Meaning the davidians? They were home.
Why, pray tell, were the federal agents there?
> >>HE failed to have himself arrested on his Sunday jog outside of the
> >>compound, instead ordering a frontal assault?
> >
> >Why (especially since you loons are so high on responsibility,
> >consequences, etc) was he going to have to be arrested?
The excuse for the BD raid was that the ATF was going to serve Koresh
with a warrant. The warrant was actually a search, not arrest warrant.
Certainly pulling him aside as he strolled into town one day would've
been a bit more feasable than the raid on the Mt. Carmel abode.
> As not much evidence was found, that also is a darn good question. Also,
> when you look at the evidence found in comparison to the scale of the
> action, it is another darn good question why they didn't just bust him on
> his Sunday jog or walk to the door and look around like they had done
> without incident several times before.
>
> >>You credit him with far too much. He certainly has some to answer for, but
> >>not all. Not by a long shot.
> >
> >He was served warrants with the SAME care and determination all
> >American have, with DUE PROCESS.
The means by which he'd been searched that search warranted would draw
outcries from civil libertarians had it occurred to anyone else. Federal
agents open fired first, shooting an unarmed Howell in the stomach as he
opened the front door in an attempt to settle the matter peacefully. The
ATF made various false statements while trying to get the warrant- a
meth lab supposedly existed at the site, was their justification for the
request of helicopters.
> You do remember why Bush told the NRA to
> >shove his lifetime membership, don't you?
The membership he'd acquired just 5 years earlier... no doubt sulking
after the NRA refused to endorse him in '92.
philsstein
dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
> AP wire included.
>
> If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
> of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
> the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>
> I hope ALL of the guilty federal Jack-booted thugs
> rot in hell and or prison!
>
> dan
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
And I thought it was you guys who were against frivilous lawsuits.
Robert Frenchu
>Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
><slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
>
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
>>
>> "Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
>> in fact murders.
>>
>> NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
>> to stop.
> Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> he's given me his life.
Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! A new Jim emerges- Jim the Tough Guy.
Can you still hold your service wheelgun without shaking too bad,
Jimmy?
--
"... Adolph Hitler had a few good ideas..."
ex-ATF Agent Jim Moore 4/23/99
_______________________________________________________
Every time Jim Moore posts, I'm donating an extra
dollar to the NRA. That way Jim can contribute even
though sagging book sales leave him on a limited budget.
See the amount Jim has donated at http://www.frenchu.com/tpg/moore.html
Jim String
>
>Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
><slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
>
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
>>
>> "Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
>> in fact murders.
>>
>> NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
>> to stop.
>>
>> Jim
>>
> Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> my kids orphans or my wife a widow. It's my
> than to have one criminal kill me.
> Now with kitty cats, of course, it's
> different. I always carry a dog (an NRA poodle)
> to deal with those threats :-)
>
Fine. If I'm on the jury I'll vote to convict you of murder and, I
suspect, so will lots of other folks.
No one is allowed to shoot to kill. Period. If you intend to kill and
succeed you are a murderer.
You are allowed to shoot to stop. Best method is a double tap to the
center of mass and if the threat doesn't stop follow up with a shot
to the head. If the perp dies, that's fine. If the threat is stopped
and he doesn't die and you kill him/her anyway, you are a murderer.
Since you seem to be abysmally ignorant regarding these matters I'll
spell it out for you further: you are not under any circumstances
allowed to shoot to wound. If the situation is not grave enough to need
to employ deadly force (a gun is not capable of less than deadly force)
then shooting to wound is assault with a deadly weapon.
It's a fine distinction, one I doubt you are capable of grasping giving
the juvenile nature of your prolific postings: you are not allowed to
shoot to wound, you are not allowed to shoot to kill, but you are allowed
to shoot to stop.
Best,
Jim
Jim Patrick
>jpat...@PONGshentel.net (Jim Patrick) wrote:
>
>>In talk.politics.guns rose...@idt.net wrote:
>>
>>>He was served warrants with the SAME care and determination all
>>>American have, with DUE PROCESS.
>>
>>That's a lie. No warrants were ever served.
>>
>>Warrants were issued to the BATF by a magistrate.
>>BATF failed to carry the warrants -- a legal requirement.
>>
>>IF the raid had 'succeeded' the case would have failed on technical
>>grounds of no warrant present at the arrest and search. It's a legal
>>requirement far older -- and far more important -- than Miranda.
>
>then, Koresh would have had NO problem, would he?
Is there a problem understanding this?
Without a warrant in hand the BATF have no right to be on the
property. They have no legal right to search. They have no legal
right to arrest.
Without a warrant they are (technically) trespassers. Any search or
arrests without that warrant are AUTOMATICALLY trashed in court.
On any search or 'raid' the one thing you DON'T forget is the warrant.
Now, what was your point?
Jim Patrick
"Freud associates retarded sexual or emotional development
not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. -- Kates."
David E. Powell
>
>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
>
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
>
>> > know the situation and you're not charged with the
>> > duty of doing anything -- to tell others "you should...."
>>
>> Alright, I accept that from the tactical standpoint. However, I was not
>> referring to tactical, but strategic, decisions. Even someone not "in the
>> biz" can wonder when there are precedents in going to the door for
>searches
>> and taking Koresh in to ask a few questions, or the Sunday jogs, which
>were
>> documented by agents who had noted his schedule.
>
> The assumption among many is that agents never considered
> or attempted what you suggest.
> The fact is that, while agents preferred and attempted
> this strategy, the rear exit/entrance to the premises Koresh
> had begun calling Ranch Apocolypse could not be seen from
> the only observation post available on that flat, unobstructed
> terrain.
Hadn't they taken the guy in before, though? I understand that it was on
flatlands, and that as such, any assault option would be risky. Thus, it
again seems strange that one was chosen...
Koresh habitually came and went via a road over a
> rise and below the vision of surveilling agents.
Could they take him in the dip? Get a coupla guys with sniper/camo
experience, give them non lethal weapons (Beanbag shotguns or tasers) with
two fully armed men for backup.. or disguise all as hikers. Or do the old
trick of pulling up in an unmarked car, pulling in front of him, and getting
out in full law enforcement uniform.. preferably with local LEOs, whom he
knew. If he goes for his piece, return fire as necessary, then "shoot and
scoot" if you feel that you are in danger of recieving fire from Mount
Carmel. (with suspect) Hopefully they won't even know what happened, or he
will be taken peaceably. Then have local LEOs drive up, if agent contacts
inside confirm that the BDs don't know what happened. Search then. Oh well.
Perhaps a bit Rube Goldberg, but just some ideas. Again this addresses the
guy's mental state, which was questioned by those running the operation...
however, he had let cops take him off, and search his place, before.
> The option of flooding Waco with enough agents to
> be sure of spotting Koresh when he visited the town was
> not feasible unless the agents wanted to alert everyone to
> their presence.
True. Putting some spotters on a known route might have been feasable,
though the FBI had an operation like that fail on them in an infamous
Florida gunfight. Surprise would have been the key, as would Koresh's
previous deference in some fashion to the authorities.
> Facts in the preceeding two paragraphs were
> established during Treasury's investigation and, later,
> during public congressional hearings. Apparently, these
> facts somehow escape the notice of those who prefer
> to present a totally negative image of ATF.
> Well, that's their problem.
> Unfortunately, and unbeknownst to the agents,
> personnel at an ambulance service which had been asked
> to remain available blabbed to a TV reporter who blabbed
> to Koresh's brother-in-law about an hour before the raid.
I had heard of the reporter. He truly was a naif... Whatever the case, the
assault would likely not have left as many dead as the whole affair
eventually did, though the tactics (Especially the firing into the upper
children's rooms) would have left some controversy.
> Jim Moore
adam_p...@yahoo.com
"Jim Moore" <aut...@ime.net> wrote:
>
>
> Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
> <slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
>
> >
> > in fact murders.
> >
> > NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
> > to stop.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jim
> >
> Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> he's given me his life. No second chances to make
> my kids orphans or my wife a widow. It's my
> belief that it's preferable to kill two criminals
> than to have one criminal kill me.
> Aw g'wan, call me sentimental.
> Now with kitty cats, of course, it's
> different. I always carry a dog (an NRA poodle)
> to deal with those threats :-)
>
> Jim Moore AMAYE
And after making those comments Jack-Boot Jimmy you have but one choice.
Get rid of any firearms you still have access to. For if you ever shoot
and kill someone, regardless of reason, your statements have made you
food for the lawyers. So you have a choice; food for the criminals or
food for the lawyers. Be sure to let us all know which you choose.
--
"People who learn history from Spielberg movies
should not tell us how to live our lives."
Jadranka Djordjevic On Hillary's comments in
Kosovo May 25, 1999 New York Times
Webmaster
--
Wawrzek
Bubba wrote in message <3781a302...@news.doitnow.com>...
>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 01:27:36 GMT, Volt...@geocities.com wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:27:10 -0700, "Slone"
>><kymi...@geocitiesREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>
>>Why don't you suggest to the Texas Rangers that you think they are
>>part of some great liberal conspiracy.
>>
>>I'd pay to see that.
>>
>> Jim
>
>
> Where in the heck did ANYONE attack the Texas Rangers? Anyone remotely
>familiar with this case knows that the Texas law enforcement agencies were
the
>only one's with anything on the ball out there.
Webmaster
--
Wawrzek
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<378e5b30...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:27:10 -0700, "Slone"
><kymi...@geocitiesREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>
>
>>What I have always wondered about it is why did they doze the whole area
and
>>not let independent investigators in to examine the 'crime scene'
>>Isnt that the way it is supposed to be? Arent forensics experts and law
>>enforcement supposed to investigate a crime scene without it being
>>disturbed?
>
>Why don't you suggest to the Texas Rangers that you think they are
>part of some great liberal conspiracy.
>
>I'd pay to see that.
>
> Jim
>
Webmaster
Gore.
--
Wawrzek
rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37815246...@news.idt.net>...
silverback
relentless attacks naw. Teh drooling idiot was only guilty of running
the most corrupt administration ever. hell the drooling idiot was
found guilty in the World Court of war mongering.
*****************************************************
GDY Weasel
emailers remove the spam buster
For those seeking enlightenment visit the White Rose at
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/whiterose.htm
Do your patriotic duty and vote for your favorite blithering idiot at
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/award.html
======================================================
Michael Ejercito's solution to global warming
If the goverment wanted to end global warming, it would use its
nuclear arsenal to put enough dust into the atmoshpere
to reduce sunlight, creating a nuclear winter.
************************************************
a friend
>
> Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
> <slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
>
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
> >
> > "Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
> > in fact murders.
> >
> > NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
> > to stop.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jim
> >
> Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> he's given me his life.
Jimmy, if you're like most BATF agents, I seriously doubt you could
hit a barn if you were shooting from the inside.
> No second chances to make
> my kids orphans or my wife a widow.
The really scary part is that you figured out how to procreate.
Maybe Darwin was wrong?
> It's my
> belief that it's preferable to kill two criminals
> than to have one criminal kill me.
This is America. Even BATF agents are allowed to believe anything
they want. Of course, that doesn't make it truth.
> Aw g'wan, call me sentimental.
> Now with kitty cats, of course, it's
> different. I always carry a dog (an NRA poodle)
> to deal with those threats :-)
You've signed up your dog to belong in the NRA? You *could*
have just subscribed to the magazine. Besides, you contribute
so much to them already!
> Jim Moore AMAYE
"All Men Are Your Enemies" (Isn't that the BATF Motto?)
Slone
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<3786cf8...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:38:07 -0700, "Slone"
><kymi...@geocitiesREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>"What I have always wondered about it is why did they doze the whole
>>>area and not let independent investigators in to examine the 'crime
>>>scene' Isnt that the way it is supposed to be? Arent forensics experts
>>>and law enforcement supposed to investigate a crime scene without it
>>>being disturbed?"
>>>
>
crime
>>scene?
>
>Hard to say. You snipped what I posted and then ran in one of your
>strawmen.
>
What you cant remember what you said????? If you need a refresher you can
read your post. Its right there in the list with your 'name' on it
>> Hey bud you aint schooling nobody here so dont get all high headed
>>there. I think you are full of shit myself.
>
>You suggested a conspiracy above, Missy.
>
>I pointed out that the Texas Rangers were in charge of the crime scene
>and asked you if you thought the Rangers were part of some grand
>liberal conspiracy.
>
>Every Texan reading this thread doubled over in laughter on that one.
>
>>So if I wonder why they didnt investigate the crime scene properly I am
suggesting conspiracy and in need of schooling?????
>
>I told you who was in charge of the crime scene.
>
>See. You are already less ignorant.
>
>>I guess the real point here is that I am stupid for even
>>replying to one of your posts cause I know you aint got nothin to say.
>
>Your first 11 words above are correct, Missy Slone.
>
>>So you say they investigated the scene properly?
>
>Another strawman.
>
>You suggest some conspiracy. I told you who was in charge of the crime
>scene.
>
>You are a slow learner aren't you, Missy Slone?
>
>> Yeah right And I bet you go "baaaa baaa baaa " too dont ya?
>
>You don't make that sort of noise in Texas unless you want some damn
>Aggie trying to mount you.
>
>Glad I could continue your education Missy Slone.
Slone
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<3787d0fd...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:44:34 -0700, "Slone"
><kymi...@geocitiesREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>
>>If you would read the thread Volt you would see he was replying to
somethin
>>someone else said..
>
>Unless it concerns Jesus of Waco and his Dividiot BBQ it is off topic
>in this thread, Missy Slone. See the Subject Header above.
Look at any thread and if it is very long at all it sure as hell doesnt stay
on topic. You are the best at getting off topic anyway. Always bringing
Koresh or Weaver into any conversation whether it has any bearing or not
>
>>But you didnt see that so you just figured you would try
>>to school the guy and call him sweetie and tell him he was wrong for even
>>replying.
>
>See. You are a bit less ignorant already.
>
>You don't have to thank me.
>
>I love schooling your dumb ass, Missy Slone.
>
>>Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
>><378cb677...@news.mindspring.com>...
>>>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:08:13 GMT, "Randy Sweeney" <rswe...@Home.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>So this is why we have multiple officers emptying their automatics into
an
>>>>unarmed man in NYC and a barely conscious girls in Riverside?
>>>>
>>>>WHO has this policy of shoot to stop?
>>>
>>>What does that have to do with Jesus of Waco ordering fuel oil to be
>>>poured on the walls of his compound, Sweetie.
>>>
>>>See the Subject header above.
>
Lone_Wolf
#"David E. Powell" wrote:
#>
#> rose...@idt.net wrote in message <37816538...@news.idt.net>...
#> >"David E. Powell" <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
#> >>HE ran and mishandled the forensic investigation?
#> >
#> >What has that got to do with why they were there.
#>
#> Forensics is the study of when and in what order things happened. It shows
#> what happened to see if it jives with other accounts. It also is one of the
#> strongest measures of prosecution. Why screw it up deliberately?
#The missing front door comes to mind.
Not to mention the pictures from the various cameras placed around the area,
which the BATF initially claimed didn't exist, but then admitted did exist, but
now claims to not have.
#> >>HE told the Hostage Negotiators to take a hike and called in the tanks?
#> >
#> >Why were they there?
#"They there"? Meaning the davidians? They were home.
#Why, pray tell, were the federal agents there?
#> >>HE failed to have himself arrested on his Sunday jog outside of the
#> >>compound, instead ordering a frontal assault?
#> >
#> >Why (especially since you loons are so high on responsibility,
#> >consequences, etc) was he going to have to be arrested?
#The excuse for the BD raid was that the ATF was going to serve Koresh
#with a warrant. The warrant was actually a search, not arrest warrant.
#Certainly pulling him aside as he strolled into town one day would've
#been a bit more feasable than the raid on the Mt. Carmel abode.
Not to mention, they trained for an armed assault, even though their warrant
didn't allow an armed assault. Take it from somebody who has worked with
Special Forces folks: you train how you fight.
#> As not much evidence was found, that also is a darn good question. Also,
#> when you look at the evidence found in comparison to the scale of the
#> action, it is another darn good question why they didn't just bust him on
#> his Sunday jog or walk to the door and look around like they had done
#> without incident several times before.
#>
#> >>You credit him with far too much. He certainly has some to answer for, but
#> >>not all. Not by a long shot.
#> >
#> >He was served warrants with the SAME care and determination all
#> >American have, with DUE PROCESS.
#The means by which he'd been searched that search warranted would draw
#outcries from civil libertarians had it occurred to anyone else. Federal
#agents open fired first, shooting an unarmed Howell in the stomach as he
#opened the front door in an attempt to settle the matter peacefully. The
#ATF made various false statements while trying to get the warrant- a
#meth lab supposedly existed at the site, was their justification for the
#request of helicopters.
Not to mention, using the ownership of a video critical of the BATF as grounds
for the warrant... But hey, one reporter has sworn an affidavit that a BATF
agent showed him a still photograph showing Koresh at the front door, unarmed.
#> You do remember why Bush told the NRA to
#> >shove his lifetime membership, don't you?
#The membership he'd acquired just 5 years earlier... no doubt sulking
#after the NRA refused to endorse him in '92.
That refusal being because of the way Bush had stabbed gun owners in the back
with his ban on the importation of military-style semi-auto rifles, including
most H&K models, except for the military and police.
James
Jim Moore
David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article <
<old stuff snipped, available in preceeding post>
> > Now with kitty cats, of course, it's
> > different. I always carry a dog (an NRA poodle)
> > to deal with those threats :-)
>
>
> However, you like to sic dogs on cats? If this is serious, a tendency to
> abuse animals is very disturbing psychologically. Hope you are just BSing
> along on that one.
The kitties have naught to fear.
Everybody knows that NRA poodles just yip and whine.
Every time they bare their fangs, they look like they're
laughing.
Jim Moore
Jim Moore
you have anything worthwhile to say.
Jim Moore AMAYE
Slone <kymi...@geocitiesREMOVETHIS.com> wrote in article
<7lueme$ivg$1...@nd.eastky.net>...
> If you would read the thread Volt you would see he was replying to
somethin
> someone else said..But you didnt see that so you just figured you would
try
> to school the guy and call him sweetie and tell him he was wrong for even
> replying
>
>
> Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
> <378cb677...@news.mindspring.com>...
> >On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:08:13 GMT, "Randy Sweeney" <rswe...@Home.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>So this is why we have multiple officers emptying their automatics into
an
> >>unarmed man in NYC and a barely conscious girls in Riverside?
> >>
> >>WHO has this policy of shoot to stop?
> >
> >What does that have to do with Jesus of Waco ordering fuel oil to be
> >poured on the walls of his compound, Sweetie.
> >
> >See the Subject header above.
> >
> >>Jim String wrote in message ...
> >>>In article <01bec760$05b6b380$72f25ad1@default>, Jim Moore wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
> >>>>> was so bungled, and those Kids could have been saved. (Busting
Koresh
> on
> >>>>his
> >>>>> Sunday Jog, or walking to the front door asking Koresh to come in
and
> >>>>answer
> >>>>> a couple questions, as cops had done in the past without incident,
> comes
> >>>>to
> >>>>> mind.)
> >>>>>
> >>>> Uh huh. My wife's uncle is a college prof, and he argued
> >>>> with me that ATF's shooting policy is wrong.
> >>>>
> >>>> The policy is: an agent can't use deadly force unless
> >>>> his life or the life of another is in imminent danger of
> >>>> death or serious injury BUT, when an agent shoots,
> >>>> he shoots to kill.
> >>>
> >>>"Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
> >>>in fact murders.
> >>>
> >>>NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
> >>>to stop.
> >
Slone
names all right but you arent worth much when it comes to making a valid
point.As you never have made a statement in answer to the question
"So what you are saying is that they are not supposed to investigate a
crime scene?"
Thats a straw man?! hell man if you say something then I question it
all you can do is insult and call "strawman! strawman!"
No this was not a strawman it was a direct question to your post
Which you didnt answer
Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
<37886265...@news.mindspring.com>...
>On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 06:22:25 -0700, "Slone"
><kymi...@geocitiesREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>
>>Volt...@geocities.com wrote in message
>><3786cf8...@news.mindspring.com>...
>
>>>>So what you are saying is that they are not supposed to investigate a
>>>>crime scene?
>
>>>Hard to say. You snipped what I posted and then ran in one of your
>>>strawmen.
>
>>What you cant remember what you said????? If you need a refresher you can
>>read your post. Its right there in the list with your 'name' on it
>
>I am reminding you that when you snip your opponent's post and then
>try to define their argument so you can attack it you are building a
>strawman, Missy Slone.
>
>You are slow aren't you?
>
> Jim
katm...@webtv.net
<Then all he had to do was not
resist.>
Kinda like Rodney King,huh?
Can you say "excessive force"?
No Justice,No Peace!
KATMANTWO
katm...@webtv.net
<snip>
<then,koresh would have NO
problem,would he?>
Only with the bullets that were whizzin' by his head.
KATMANTWO
renega...@my-deja.com
"Jim Moore" <aut...@ime.net> wrote:
> Aw c'mon Slone, lighten up. Quite trying to act like
> you have anything worthwhile to say.
>
> Jim Moore AMAYE
Look who the hell is accusing someone else of not having
anything worthwhile to say. Jim Moore you are a man beyond
redemption.
AMAYE= A Man Against Your Existence
KB
> > >Ecrasons l'infame
> > >
> > >Join The War On Right Wing Ignorance:
> > >http://clusterone.home.mindspring.com/
> > >
> >
>=======================================================================
=
> > >"As a prisoner of war in North Vietnam I slept more soundly
knowing that
> > George
> > >W. Bush was defending the shores of Texas from invasion."
> > >
> > > --
Senator
> John
> > McCain, R-Az.
> >
>=======================================================================
=
> >
> >
> >
>
Jim Moore
> Jim Moore wrote in message <01bec7dd$c396eaa0$8df25ad1@default>...
> >
>
> flatlands, and that as such, any assault option would be risky. Thus, it
> again seems strange that one was chosen...
No, Koresh had never ben arrested by ATF, or by anyone
subsequent to issuance of the federal warrants.
As for choosing the terrain, Koresh picked it.
>
> Koresh habitually came and went via a road over a
> > rise and below the vision of surveilling agents.
>
>
> Could they take him in the dip? Get a coupla guys with sniper/camo
> experience, give them non lethal weapons (Beanbag shotguns or tasers)
with
> two fully armed men for backup.. or disguise all as hikers. Or do the old
> trick of pulling up in an unmarked car, pulling in front of him, and
getting
> out in full law enforcement uniform.. preferably with local LEOs, whom he
> knew. If he goes for his piece, return fire as necessary, then "shoot and
> scoot" if you feel that you are in danger of recieving fire from Mount
> Carmel. (with suspect) Hopefully they won't even know what happened, or
he
> will be taken peaceably. Then have local LEOs drive up, if agent contacts
> inside confirm that the BDs don't know what happened. Search then. Oh
well.
> Perhaps a bit Rube Goldberg, but just some ideas. Again this addresses
the
> guy's mental state, which was questioned by those running the
operation...
> however, he had let cops take him off, and search his place, before.
>
No where agents could conceal themselves from the
Ranch Apocolypse tower except the house they used
as an observation post.
I imagine we could Monday-morning quarterback
this thing to death, but it doesn't seem very
useful.
>
> I had heard of the reporter. He truly was a naif... Whatever the case,
the
> assault would likely not have left as many dead as the whole affair
> eventually did, though the tactics (Especially the firing into the upper
> children's rooms) would have left some controversy.
>
I believe agents returned fire to windows from
which gunfire emanated.
The big difference between this situation and
the military/war situation is that in a war, one may
shoot at anyone in front of them, while agents can't
fire unless the "target" poses an immediate threat
to their life or the life of someone else.
If you even watch the TV coverage of the
raid again, the part where an agent on the roof is
taking fire that comes through the wall, you'll
notice that he rolls away but does not shoot back
through the wall. No way of knowing whether an
innocent person is behind that wall.
Returning fire to windows from which
gunfire is coming seems different to me.
Jim Moore
Jim Moore
NASCAR <no...@home.net> wrote in article <37835bb6...@166.82.1.9>...
<snipped old stuff, see it in preceeding posts>
>
> Interesting comments from a BATF agent. You confirm the "Gun-Grabber"
> metality, citizens aren't worth saving so we must disarm them but
> government agents are better so they must have guns to protect
> themselves.
Good grief, you got THAT out of what I said?
C'mon fella, are you really a professional comedian?
You're trying for laughs, right?
Jim Moore AMAYE
Jim Moore AMAYE
Steven Payne
Volt...@geocities.com wrote:
Snip
>
> That film footage didn't seem to impress the 5th Circuit Court of
> Appeal very much, Steve:
>
> http://clusterone.home.mindspring.com/waco.html
>
> Now take the gun barrel out of your ass and go say a prayer for your
> Chrispy Critter, Jesus of Waco.
>
> Jim
In the criminal case yes you are right the Government did no wrong <G>
Well the Civil suit will not be lackeys so lets see how much Cash they
pay for there crime?
As to the sexual use of a weapon sorry jim not me, And I am not
religious.
Well you do tend to ASSUME alot, it shows on your end
Steve
Bubba
>On Tue, 06 Jul 1999 06:35:44 GMT, jay...@kansas.com (Bubba) wrote:
>
>>Where in the heck did ANYONE attack the Texas Rangers? Anyone remotely
>>familiar with this case knows that the Texas law enforcement agencies were the
>>only one's with anything on the ball out there.
>
>The Rangers were in charge of the crime scene.
>You were saying?
>
> Jim
Ah yes .. as the Feds in their bulldozers finish demolishing any culpable
evidence, they turn to the Rangers and say, "It's all yours boys."
David E. Powell
>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
><O3Yww0Cy#GA.356@cpmsnbbsa05>...
>> Jim Moore wrote in message <01bec7dd$c396eaa0$8df25ad1@default>...
>> >
>> >David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
>> >
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
>>
>> Hadn't they taken the guy in before, though? I understand that it was on
>> flatlands, and that as such, any assault option would be risky. Thus, it
>> again seems strange that one was chosen...
>
> No, Koresh had never ben arrested by ATF, or by anyone
> subsequent to issuance of the federal warrants.
> As for choosing the terrain, Koresh picked it.
Yes... Had the church been moved there, or had it been at Mt. Carmel since
the 30s?
Also, could they have the local PD take him in, then walk in to the station
and deal with him in that environment?
All operations are, however.. it is how they are learned from and compared
to other scenearios for future reference. I am sure that the BATF and the
FBI spent many months on this themselves.
Also, surely it was incorporated into training data and operations, as the
anticlimatic "Freemen" standoff proved...
>> I had heard of the reporter. He truly was a naif... Whatever the case,
>the
>> assault would likely not have left as many dead as the whole affair
>> eventually did, though the tactics (Especially the firing into the upper
>> children's rooms) would have left some controversy.
>>
> I believe agents returned fire to windows from
> which gunfire emanated.
> The big difference between this situation and
> the military/war situation is that in a war, one may
> shoot at anyone in front of them, while agents can't
> fire unless the "target" poses an immediate threat
> to their life or the life of someone else.
> If you even watch the TV coverage of the
> raid again, the part where an agent on the roof is
> taking fire that comes through the wall, you'll
> notice that he rolls away but does not shoot back
> through the wall. No way of knowing whether an
> innocent person is behind that wall.
Yes.. also, IIRC, one guy was on a roof when bullets started coming
through... IIRC he also responded by sticking an MP5 in the nearest window
blindly and rocking-n-rolling.
> Returning fire to windows from which
> gunfire is coming seems different to me.
Is full auto standard practice in these instances, though? It is tough to
control such fire in cramped and unusual firing positions, especially when
bystanders/hostages could be in close proximity to actual or possible
targets.
> Jim Moore
Michael Cidras
Bazemore <jpba...@ouray.cudenver.edu> wrote:
>
>
>Jim String wrote:
>
>> > Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
>> > he's given me his life. No second chances to make
>> > my kids orphans or my wife a widow. It's my
>> >
>> >
>> > Jim Moore AMAYE
>>
>> Fine. If I'm on the jury I'll vote to convict you of murder and, I
>> suspect, so will lots of other folks.
>>
>> No one is allowed to shoot to kill. Period. If you intend to kill and
>> succeed you are a murderer.
>>
>
>Wrong. Lethal force is legal to repel attempted lethal force. It's self
>defense.
>
>Of course, the intent would be to stop the attack--unfortunately, there isn't
>much room to be nice, unless you could shoot the gun out of the attacker's
>hand like Bill Cody. Odds not good.
Shooting to stop an attack doesn't necessarily mean shooting the
perp's gun out of their hand. If you shoot the attacker center of
mass to stop his attack and he subsequently dies, darn. Remember, you
will be held to the level of what a "reasonable" person would do in
your situation. Reasonable people are not necessarily crack shots,
and to expect that is not reasonable. Now, if you did a head shot,
you might be in a pickle when it comes down to a jury trial.
Of course, this is just my $0.02.
--
Michael Cidras
NRA #SAJ7755F
OldSalt
>In article <3785b8f2...@news.redshift.com>,
>Robert_Frenchu*DELETE*@yahoo.com (Robert Frenchu) wrote:
>
>> Can you still hold your service wheelgun without shaking too bad,
>> Jimmy?
>
>Doesn't have to: he just uses his attack poodle.
Don't poke fun at that !!! Some of those attack poodles are really
deadly !!!! I think the long arm ones with the fur shaved into lil
tuffs are ok for target practice and self defense. But when you get
into the ones that have their nails painted and the lil bows on their
heads or clothes on.....well you are talking a weapon that has NO
purpose other then to cause death !!! They need to be banned !!!
I think that muzzle locks and a pooper scooper should be mandatory for
every owner at the very least. And if you have children around these
poodles.....ohhh dear.
OldSalt
<David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>However, you like to sic dogs on cats? If this is serious, a tendency to
>abuse animals is very disturbing psychologically. Hope you are just BSing
>along on that one.
Julian D.
invaded the compound when they could have nabbed Koresh on his way
into town. Were any illegal weapons found on the property? Assault
weapons? I don't mean the gun-control fanatics definition of assault
guns, but fully automatic weapons? Seems odd they wiped the site clean
immediately after it was all over.
Reno needs to answer some of these questions. Her deflection about
kids being abused never was true.
JD
Duane Phinney
Julian D. <ju...@ersatz.com> wrote in message
news:378806f0...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> I hope they get their day in court. I just never understood why they
> invaded the compound when they could have nabbed Koresh on his way
> into town. Were any illegal weapons found on the property? Assault
> weapons?
pyotr filipivich
>David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
><O3Yww0Cy#GA.356@cpmsnbbsa05>...
>> Jim Moore wrote in message <01bec7dd$c396eaa0$8df25ad1@default>...
>> >
>> >David E. Powell <David_Po...@email.msn.com> wrote in article
>> >
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
>>
>> Hadn't they taken the guy in before, though? I understand that it was on
>> flatlands, and that as such, any assault option would be risky. Thus, it
>> again seems strange that one was chosen...
> No, Koresh had never ben arrested by ATF, or by anyone
> subsequent to issuance of the federal warrants.
> As for choosing the terrain, Koresh picked it.
Sorry Jimbo, but you kind of got this wrong as well.
Koresh didn't "chose his terrain." It came with the property,
property he inhereited as the leader of the Branch of David.
The ATF had already tipped off that Koresh was under investigation,
months before Operation Showtime, so that specious little bit of
"reasoning" doesn't hold water.
I guess the ATF never figured to just call Koresh and ask him.
After all, just becasue the local sheriff can get David Koresh to
surrender on a murder charge, just by using the telephone, doesn't mean
the Federal Agents are restricted to such backwoods practices.
Yep.
Of course, I observed when this went down that the ATF was in a
no-win situation. OF course, that was before I learned that they had
worked long and hard to perpetrate a fraudulant cover story, and could
be considered to have deserved all the "glory" they covered themselves
with.
>>
>> I had heard of the reporter. He truly was a naif... Whatever the case,
>the
>> assault would likely not have left as many dead as the whole affair
>> eventually did, though the tactics (Especially the firing into the upper
>> children's rooms) would have left some controversy.
>>
> I believe agents returned fire to windows from
> which gunfire emanated.
> The big difference between this situation and
> the military/war situation is that in a war, one may
> shoot at anyone in front of them, while agents can't
> fire unless the "target" poses an immediate threat
> to their life or the life of someone else.
Uh huh.
And how is an unarmed guy a threat to an black clad para
military ninja wannabe?
Or were the agents afraid that Koresh was about to cast some
magical spell on them and make them shoot their friends?
> If you even watch the TV coverage of the
> raid again, the part where an agent on the roof is
> taking fire that comes through the wall, you'll
> notice that he rolls away but does not shoot back
> through the wall. No way of knowing whether an
> innocent person is behind that wall.
No doubt. Of couse, Jimmy seems to forget the small minor
detail that prior to the bullets coming out of that wall, he had been
shooitng into htat wall. This was after three of his mates had climbed
through the window. Sounds like "friendly fire". Or some one owed
someone too much from the poker table.
> Returning fire to windows from which
> gunfire is coming seems different to me.
Of course these seems to have been some discrepancy about who
fired first. At the time, the ATF agents one the scene were telling
the reporters that they had been returning fire for some time before the
Davidians shot at them.
Oh well, I'm sure "premptive retaliation" wasn't invented by the
Johnson Administration.
--
pyotr filipivich
Hey - the Fourth of July is fast approaching. This is a great US
holiday, the only one dedicated to overthrowing the government!
Steven Payne
Volt...@geocities.com wrote:
>
> On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:33:12 GMT, "Duane Phinney" <geno...@fdt.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Julian D. <ju...@ersatz.com> wrote in message
> >news:378806f0...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> >> I hope they get their day in court. I just never understood why they
> >> invaded the compound when they could have nabbed Koresh on his way
> >> into town. Were any illegal weapons found on the property? Assault
> >> weapons?
> > No, illegal weapons were not found.
>
> Wrong again, DUane.
So other than your point why was there no photos of these alleged
machine guns?
Why was the fire Dept. kept back when the fire first started?
Why are there dead women and children?
Why the Military assault tactics on civilians?
Why do you believe the government when it has been proved they lied?
Steve
Saint John
Steven Payne wrote:
Actually they did find some converted firearms. The question remains whether
or not they were converted before or after the initial raid. The footage I
saw on TV of the agent getting shot on the roof (through the wall) was
definitly done with a semi auto. Those bullets were not coming through in
bursts of 3. So you have to ask yourself why use a semi if you have a full
auto handy. I would guess most if not all were converted after the initial
raid.
Saint John
Raptor
>
> I hope they get their day in court. I just never understood why they
> invaded the compound when they could have nabbed Koresh on his way
> into town.
No arrest warrant. They had to "sweet-talk" the judge into issuing a
search warrant.
Were any illegal weapons found on the property? Assault
> weapons?
Yes.
I don't mean the gun-control fanatics definition of assault
> guns, but fully automatic weapons? Seems odd they wiped the site clean
> immediately after it was all over.
There was enough hard evidence recovered to get convictions. And it IS
odd the way the site was handled.
> Reno needs to answer some of these questions. Her deflection about
> kids being abused never was true.
She was lied to by the people in the field.
You might want to check out "The Ashes of Waco" from your library. It's
pretty balanced.
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
STEVE JOBS: We're better than you are. We've got better stuff.
BILL GATES: You don't get it, Steve. That doesn't matter!
"Pirates of Silicon Valley"
Photo Restoration done here:
http://www.xmission.com/~lawall/PhotoIndex.html
Randy Sweeney
Pretty aggressive talk for a disarmament proponent or is it just others you
want to disarm?
Jim Moore wrote in message <01bec7de$d45d3d20$8df25ad1@default>...
>
>
>Jim String <pla...@not.replyable.com> wrote in article
><slrn7o34cb...@molly.hh.org>...
>
> <snipped stuff available in previous post>
>>
>> "Shoots to kill" eh? Thanks for reminding us that BATF agents are
>> in fact murders.
>>
>> NO ONE is allowed to shoot to kill. You are only allowed to shoot
>> to stop.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jim
>>
> Says you. When some s.o.b. draws down on me,
> he's given me his life. No second chances to make
> my kids orphans or my wife a widow. It's my
> belief that it's preferable to kill two criminals
> than to have one criminal kill me.
> Aw g'wan, call me sentimental.
> Now with kitty cats, of course, it's
> different. I always carry a dog (an NRA poodle)
> to deal with those threats :-)
>
> Jim Moore AMAYE
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Don Staples
"Finally, the jury convicted Craddock on Count 7 for unlawful possession of
a hand grenade and convicted Paul
Fatta on Counts 9 and 10 for conspiring to manufacture and possess
machineguns and for aiding and abetting the unlawful
possession of machineguns, respectively."
Possession of "a" handgrenade and "conspiring" and "aiding and abetting".
No possession of automatic weapons. And, during the hearings, no one
testified as to the presence of automatic weapons in evidence. And, hand
grenades survived the fire? No independent observers were permitted to
inspect the weapons removed from the Davidian compound. Wonder why?
Weak, Butt Buddy, weak.
Volt...@geocities.com wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Jul 1999 23:33:12 GMT, "Duane Phinney" <geno...@fdt.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Julian D. <ju...@ersatz.com> wrote in message
> >news:378806f0...@cnews.newsguy.com...
> >> I hope they get their day in court. I just never understood why they
> >> invaded the compound when they could have nabbed Koresh on his way
> >> into town. Were any illegal weapons found on the property? Assault
> >> weapons?
> > No, illegal weapons were not found.
>
> Wrong again, DUane.
>
> http://clusterone.home.mindspring.com/waco.html
>
> Read it and weep.
>
> Jim
--
Don Staples
UIN 4653335
Web Offerings: http://www.livingston.net/dstaples/
For Forestry Conversation, Information, or Questions: The news groups
bionet.agroforestry and alt.forestry are available.
http://www.delphi.com/ab-forestry/messages is a commercial site that is one
of the best sites on the web for forestry information.
Don Linsenbach
Someone needs to do you a favor and put an ounce of lead through the center
of your stupid skull.
<rose...@idt.net> wrote in message news:378151ae...@news.idt.net...
> dhol...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >AP wire included.
> >
> >If there was ever a federal Whitewash of a miscarriage
> >of justice, the house panel that investigated Reno,
> >the ATF and FBI, this is it!
>
> Why?
>
> Koresh was clearly at fault, HE shot his children, HIS people, HE
> burned his compound, and HE got what HE deserved.
>
> Ain't you the dildoes that want people to accept consequences for
> their actions.
>
> Anyway, your regurgitation of the NRA slick ads shows about how much
> brain matter you got to independently process information.
>
> Besides, the thought of roast Koresh STILL makes me giggle.
>
>
>
Don Linsenbach
No one ever accused the liberals of having too many brains have they?
<rose...@idt.net> wrote in message news:37815246...@news.idt.net...
> send.sp...@this.address (YabbaDoo) wrote:
>
> >In article <7lrd1t$u3g$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dhol...@my-deja.com says...
>
> >Not a chance (well prison anyway). This is a civil case. The feds will
buy
> >their way out of this, with YOUR tax dollars, just as they did after Ruby
> >Ridge.
>
> Or, on the other hand, we get to laugh some more at Koresh.
>
>
>
Don Linsenbach
It's that genetic thang, man.
Blame your mom and her late night forays into the local barnyards.
You're 1/2 chicken and 1/2 donkey !
<rose...@idt.net> wrote
I don't
> think a whole lot about it.
>
>