Ground Faulted Condensers?
GaryE
I just did a new house & they decided to build a pool about 4 feet from
where my condensers were. The inspector made the electricians put the
two units on ground fault. I've never had this happen before & I'm a
little concerned about problems with the units running when it rains.
I hope 220 ground faults aren't as likely to trip as 110's.
Any ideas?
--
Gary
Leave off A to reply by email : garyed_at_gte.net
When you know it can always be worse, it never seems that bad.
When you appreciate what you have, you have a lot more.
Jake
I've never heard of a GFCI requirement on a outdoor condenser. Ask the
inspector for a code cite on that one.
GFCI's do not behave well with inductive loads like motors... in fact...
they fail... a lot. Ask anyone who has installed them on drinking fountains
in commercial buildings.
Raining will not be a problem as long as the units are properly grounded and
wired correctly. The motor loads will be... I'd guarantee it. You're going
to replace those breakers regularly... so by 'em now.
Jake
"GaryE" <Aga...@gte.net> wrote in message news:42800213...@gte.net...
GaryE
getting around the windings than the inductive load.
I asked the electrical inspector & he's never run accross this either so
he said he wanted to make sure it was safe. Actually the other city
electrical inspector said we didn't need it as long as we bonded the
units to the pool ground. My luck I got the wrong inspector. I told the
General Contractor that I'm not going to be responsible for breaker
trips but I know the electricians are going to blame it on my units.
The electricians were responsible for installing the GFI's but I'm the
one who's going to be called when the AC doesn't cool.
B-Hate-Me
> I just did a new house & they decided to build a pool about 4 feet from
> where my condensers were. The inspector made the electricians put the two
> units on ground fault. I've never had this happen before & I'm a little
> concerned about problems with the units running when it rains.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just a little news flash.....It' rains on ALL condensing units.
Unless you're Vicki ; - )
Jake
Something else occurred to me today.... If this is a standard, single phase
two-wire and ground condenser... a GFCI will do no good whatsoever. A GFCI
requires a neutral. If you have 240 volt loads there, then no ground fault
protection is afforded by a GFCI. The ground fault protection is provided by
a good unit ground.
Jake
"GaryE" <Aga...@gte.net> wrote in message news:42803A8E...@gte.net...
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>Gary,
>
>Something else occurred to me today.... If this is a standard, single phase
>two-wire and ground condenser... a GFCI will do no good whatsoever. A GFCI
>requires a neutral. If you have 240 volt loads there, then no ground fault
>protection is afforded by a GFCI. The ground fault protection is provided by
>a good unit ground.
Ummm.... unless you bond the neutral pigtail of the breaker to
ground at the panel :-)
Did that with the GFI breaker I bought for the heater in my
spa. Right there in the diagrams, it was :-)
Click every day here to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
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Jake
> ground at the panel :-)
>
> Did that with the GFI breaker I bought for the heater in my
> spa. Right there in the diagrams, it was :-)
>
Unless the neutral is actually loaded.. ie there is a 120 V to ground load
there.. then no protection is afforded. AND, the neutral must be returning
from the load, to breaker, or there is no protection.
Or I've missed something here.
Jake
PrecisionMachinisT
"Jake" <jkel...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:zUege.73576$c24.25275@attbi_s72...
Jake,
The above subject was recently discussed along with someother grounding
issues within a thread on alt.machines.cnc, ( where Gary H. Lucas is our
resident sparky )
Below find a copy of his post :
[
"Gary H. Lucas" <gary....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:g45fe.1497$7G.81@trndny01...
>
> "Kirk Gordon" <k...@gordon-eng2.com> wrote in message
> news:1115453910.5c9c57a008bfb05871c01cbd8b5b79b5@teranews...
<snip>
> >
> > I have to admit that I'm still astonished that you're talking about
> > thousands of amps. I knew about the trip ratings for circuit breakers;
> > and I've learned how to use and select them; but I never thought much
> > about what those numbers meant in terms of actual energy running around
in
> > the shop. I tend (intuitively) to think of non-grounded electrical
> > problems as big voltage issues; but not big amperage.
> >
> > Live and learn. And thanks again!
> >
> > KG
> >
> >>
> Kirk,
> Back when I was hiring electricians I would ask prospective employees if
> they had 480 volt or higher experience. Frequently I'd get an answer like
> "No, but it doesn't worry me" Well it sure as hell worried me! The
safety
> issues you face on 120/240 or 120/208 volt service vs. 277/480 are
> completely different animals. I've seen lots of wiring and equipment
> failures at both voltages. I've seen some burned and melted stuff on
> 120/208. At 480 volts though I've seen 1/8" metal housings with holes
> burned right through. I've seen a 2" diameter bundle of wires with about
2"
> missing, where the hot plasma from a short vaporized the insulation and
the
> copper wires. It also buckled the two 1/8" layers of steel behind the
> bundle. I've had a 5 hp motor starter blow up and pit my glasses so bad I
> had to replace them. It also removed my beard, eyebrows and the hair on
my
> forehead!
>
> What drives all this is that with the higher voltage you can't often carry
> away all the current through the ground path. So what happens is the
> voltage stays high, and you get arcing. Once arcing starts the resistance
> goes DOWN, so the voltage goes UP. Now you have a situation where the arc
> can continue for quite a long time before a circuit breaker can open. So
> lots of energy is liberated in the form of heat, and light. So much that
it
> often sounds like an explosive going off.
>
> You are all probably familiar with GFCIs (Ground Fault Circuit
Interrupters)
> that are required for Bathrooms, Kitchens, and outdoors by the NEC code.
> What a GFCI does is wrap a current transformer around the hot wire and the
> neutral. If any current is sensed then that current has to be flowing to
> ground, because otherwise the hot wire and the neutral wire currents would
> exactly cancel. The trip point for these things is typically 5 milliamps,
> well below what could kill you at 120 volts. What you may not be aware of
> is that all electric services at voltages above 250 volts and more than
1000
> amps also have GFCI required by code. This came about because many
services
> actually failed so catastrophically that they were literally consumed by
the
> energy released. I've never seen that personally. However I did have two
> guys working for me that were standing on top of a service switchgear when
> something shorted inside and burned the whole thing almost to the ground!
> They jumped clear and only suffered from smoke inhalation. You're
probably
> wondering why the fuses didn't prevent this. Well lets say the fuses were
> rated 1000 amps. Looking at the time/current curve those fuses would
carry
> say 2000 amps for say 1 full minute. So as I mentioned before when an arc
> starts the current is reduced. That means you could have an arcing fault
at
> say 2000 amps that would last for 1 full minute. How much energy gets
> released from 3 phases at 2000 amps each and 480 volts? Pretty nasty huh?
> What if the arc current dropped to say 950 amps? Would it ever stop
> burning? Well maybe when the power company shows up to turn it off! Sa
> GFCI gets added, with a ground fault trip current of about 40% of the
> circuit breaker rating. If the ground fault current goes above 400 amps
the
> circuit breaker on main switch will be opened to cut off the current.
>
> Gary H. Lucas
>
>
]
--
SVL
Jake
>> amps also have GFCI required by code. This came about because many
> services
>> actually failed so catastrophically that they were literally consumed by
> the
Sam,
I think the fellow is actually talking about Arc Fault Current
Interrupters... which do afford some GFCI protection but behave completely
differently.
AFCI's are available, but in my experience, not widely employed at 480. I'd
like to see the code on that...(-;...
On transmission lines above 10kV, most all of them have VERY sensitive sub
station breakers that are AFCI tolerant.
I think a lot of what the post said is baloney.... at 480 even.... grounded
at 1000 amps.... I've REALLY seen switchgear blown off walls. Typically, the
primary transformer will clear a fuse before anything like that happens....
no GFCI protection... never seen it.
Primary fuses will clear almost IMMEDIATELY on a hard ground fault... I
cannot tell you how many smelly raccoons, possums, and (yes) even cats I've
dug out of outside distribution circuits. On a downed line... yes, they will
"dance" for a little bit.... then finally find a good ground.. get too
hot... and pop the fuse. At less than 50 kV, I've never seen it take more
than 30 seconds.
Jake
PrecisionMachinisT
Yeah, we get squirrels up on top the pole transformers all the time around
here...it invariably blows out the primary fuse...
The part I was referring to specifically though was his description of the
operation of a gfci...with a ct being balanced between neutral and hot
effectively cancelling each other...unless theres some leakage to ground.
--
SVL
Jake
It just got me going that the guy said something was "code"... when I don't
believe it a whit.
I've got 12 to 34 kV transformers sitting all over the place going to 480
secondaries at up to 5,000 kVa. The only protection is the primary line
fusing... which are not time delay in any sense of the word. When they see
the rated load... they burn. This IS why it's so important to have properly
designed and installed secondary distribution... and trained people
servicing it.
The only times I've ever seen switchgear burn is when an un-qualified tech
re-fuses a primary and a buried cable or transformer downstream is faulted.
No GFCI's... but maybe AFCI's if the switchgear is new enough.
Jake
John Gilmer
>
> The only times I've ever seen switchgear burn is when an un-qualified tech
> re-fuses a primary and a buried cable or transformer downstream is
faulted.
> No GFCI's... but maybe AFCI's if the switchgear is new enough.
Really?
The protection equipment on high voltage distribution most certainly does
detect "ground faults". Of course, the faults are measured in the
hundreds of amps.
>
Jake
"John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:4282a1f0$1$32...@dingus.crosslink.net...
>
>
>>
>> The only times I've ever seen switchgear burn is when an un-qualified
>> tech
>> re-fuses a primary and a buried cable or transformer downstream is
> faulted.
>> No GFCI's... but maybe AFCI's if the switchgear is new enough.
>
> Really?
>
The equipment detects ground faults... but not through the use of a GFCI as
it is conventionally viewed. The equipment will detect phase-phase faults
similarly to ground faults... through over-current protection.. or arc-fault
protection.
Jake
Jake
> The protection equipment on high voltage distribution most certainly does
> detect "ground faults". Of course, the faults are measured in the
> hundreds of amps.
>>
Just to clarify, also: 480 volts is NOT considered high voltage... it's
medium voltage... hundreds of amps notwithstanding!
Jake
GaryE
B-Hate-Me wrote:
>
> Just a little news flash.....It' rains on ALL condensing units.
Now that is a very astute observation.
PrecisionMachinisT
> Ok Sam... I apologize again... shit!
Well, you better stop that NOW !!!
>
> It just got me going that the guy said something was "code"... when I
don't
> believe it a whit.
>
Needless to say, there *was* a reason I hadn't snipped that part...not that
I want a pissing match, but I do know he's been out of the electrical
contracting business for a decade or maybe two...but...still...something
didnt add up for me either...
Like anything on usenet, gotta take it with a grain of salt till you
conclusively find out otherwise...
He's usually dead on about grounding issues and whatnot...he's one of the
good guys, IMO...probly used the incorrect terminology, not something I'm
gonna dwell upon for very long.
>
> The only times I've ever seen switchgear burn is when an un-qualified tech
> re-fuses a primary and a buried cable or transformer downstream is
faulted.
> No GFCI's... but maybe AFCI's if the switchgear is new enough.
>
Yeah, my bets AFCI is what he had probably meant to say.
It's still a semi-active discussion over there--IMO it wouldn't hurt if you
were to post a correction if you were to deem it as appropriate.
At any rate, probly at least an interesting read for you--the op had cut his
water pipe and gotten "sparks"...
=====
Ref : (pertinent headers from the original post below)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:56:36 -0500
Reply-To: "Proctologically Violated©®" <phys...@erols.com>
From: "Proctologically Violated©®" <phys...@erols.com>
Newsgroups: alt.machines.cnc
Subject: Plumbing & CNC
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:54:37 -0400
=====
--
SVL
James Storm
> Has anyone ever run into condenser units on a ground fault breaker?
> I just did a new house & they decided to build a pool about 4 feet from
> where my condensers were. The inspector made the electricians put the
> two units on ground fault. I've never had this happen before & I'm a
> little concerned about problems with the units running when it rains.
> I hope 220 ground faults aren't as likely to trip as 110's.
> Any ideas?
>
>
between current carrying conductors. If there is a difference, then
current is going where it shouldn't and breaker trips. Even with a
neutral in the circuit it still has to be balance or it will trip.
An example would be, if you used a cheater cord on a straight 240v GFIC
and connected 1 hot and 1 ground and plugged in your drop light, the
circuit would or should trip immediately. That would be because all the
current from 1 leg and nothing on the other legs to counterbalance the
load. Grounds are not current carrying conductors and are for emergency
use only.
--
James Storm
aka Stormy Weather
jst...@ptd.net
John Gilmer
"James Storm" <jst...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:-0adnb6jI8U...@ptd.net...
Some (many?) folks don't know that the 120 volt GFCI will detect (and trip
out) on a fault between NEUTRAL and GROUND. The gadgets have an extra
coil and core just to attempt to inject some common mode current into the
wire pair. If you have an old GFCI you can take it apart and see the
second coil.
BTW: "motors" don't cause GFCIs to trip. Some fridges cause problems
because sometimes water can drip over the defrosting heater. The demand
for 240 volt GFCIs is almost 100% driven by hot tubs. So long as the water
is kept away from the wiring they don't trip. In the fullness of time,
leakage pathways can become established and the "cure" is to clean things
up, spray some WD-40 to keep the water off insulation, and give it the smoke
test.
>
SQLit
Sorry Jake, under a 1000 volts is low voltage, over 1000 to 69kv is medium
voltage and over 69 kv is high voltage.
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
If that's a refernce to 'how high I'm going to be lifting my
feet as I get some distance between me and them', you might be
right !! :-)
Jake
You're right... this may have been one of those times when I MEANT to say
one thing and type another. Anyhow, my point was that 480 is not considered
high voltage. Thanks....
I need a vacation!
Jake
BTW... I use the ANSI standard here with our utilitiies... which is < 1000
Volts Low, 1,000-100,000 medium, and > 100,000 high. IMBR, it's ANSI
C84.1-1995. I konw that's a controversial standard, however.
Jake
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>SQ,
>
>You're right... this may have been one of those times when I MEANT to say
>one thing and type another. Anyhow, my point was that 480 is not considered
>high voltage. Thanks....
>
>I need a vacation!
What a perfect opportunity for you to visit MGTC ( Minion
Getaway Timeshare Condos ) in Florida !
We have lovely timeshares available at very reasonable terms,
and lunch is on us ! While you're here, you will have, at no extra
charge, a special once-in-a-lifetime chance to win the retirement home
of your dreams, for a low low sweepstakes entry fee of only .....
Oh, nevermind :-(
Jake
Wrong... on all counts.. wrong.
A GFCI has a second CT because it must in order to be a GFCI. It is, after
all... sensing the current IN and the current OUT of the circuit. A GFCI
will trip on a neutral/ground fault because that's what it is designed to
do... if the current is not returning on the neutral... then it's returning
through your shoes or something (-;.
Ask any electrical contractor, or any electrical house about GFCI's and
motors.. motors will trip them because they are inductive loads and, by
their nature, , might have uneven current draw signatures (with motors..
especially on startup). Fluorescent lighting will pose the same problem.
WD40 is not compatible with many types of wiring insulation, and will cause
degradation and premature failure. Use contact cleaner and wait a while
before re-energizing.
Please don't post baloney if you have no idea what you're talking about!
Jake
John Gilmer
> John,
>
> Wrong... on all counts.. wrong.
>
> A GFCI has a second CT because it must in order to be a GFCI. It is, after
> all... sensing the current IN and the current OUT of the circuit. A GFCI
> will trip on a neutral/ground fault because that's what it is designed to
> do... if the current is not returning on the neutral... then it's
returning
> through your shoes or something (-;.
So? EVERYONE knows that. To detect a net inbalance only takes one coil.
The second coil will detect a ground fault even when there is NO LOAD and no
current (except for the injected current) in the neutral.\
Those are the facts.
>
> Ask any electrical contractor, or any electrical house about GFCI's and
> motors.. motors will trip them because they are inductive loads and, by
> their nature, , might have uneven current draw signatures (with motors..
> especially on startup). Fluorescent lighting will pose the same problem.
1) motors per se don't make GFCIs trip.
2) as mentioned before, the driver for the 240 volt GFCI is the HOT TUB.
The primary load is an "inductive load."
3) the GFCI senses "common mode" current. Differential current cause by
a "funny" load cancels out regardless of of the current waveform.
4) Flourescent lamps can be a problem because the ballasts generate voltage
surges and because of capacitance to ground this may cause enough current
flow through ground to trip.
5) An inductor motor with a single pole contactor might cause a false trip
as might a flourescentt lamp on starting. But in the largest application
of the 240 volt GFCI this doesn't seem to be a problem.
> WD40 is not compatible with many types of wiring insulation, and will
cause
> degradation and premature failure.
Maybe so. But it sure as hell "dries up" leakage paths.
>Use contact cleaner and wait a while
> before re-energizing.
Contact cleaner does a good job of cleaning contacts. WD-40 does a good
job of reducing electrical leakage from the combination of moisture and
surface contamination. (Its what you used when you have a weak spark in
you car engine.) Different problems; different sollutions.
>
> Please don't post baloney if you have no idea what you're talking about!
But I do.
Have a nice day.
Oscar_Lives
<pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:f0r78154dkpoknt58...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:45:33 GMT, "Jake" <jkel...@insightbb.com>
> wrote:
>
>>SQ,
>>
>>You're right... this may have been one of those times when I MEANT to say
>>one thing and type another. Anyhow, my point was that 480 is not
>>considered
>>high voltage. Thanks....
>>
>>I need a vacation!
>
> What a perfect opportunity for you to visit MGTC ( Minion
> Getaway Timeshare Condos ) in Florida !
>
> We have lovely timeshares available at very reasonable terms,
> and lunch is on us ! While you're here, you will have, at no extra
> charge, a special once-in-a-lifetime chance to win the retirement home
> of your dreams, for a low low sweepstakes entry fee of only .....
Don't do it! It is a rip-off!
I did the Minion Deluxe vacation package last year and I ended up sharing a
bunk bed with three other minions (and one wasn't even Vicki).
The minion waterslide wasn't too bad, though.
Jake
> coil.
> The second coil will detect a ground fault even when there is NO LOAD and
> no
> current (except for the injected current) in the neutral.\
True. Although there are numerous studies around that conclude that this
scheme is rarely if ever effective except under stringent "test" conditions.
>
> 1) motors per se don't make GFCIs trip.
Wrong... again. Google it. Some AFCI's have microprocessors in them that
recognize motor or lighting "signatures" and prevent nuisance tripping.
>
> 2) as mentioned before, the driver for the 240 volt GFCI is the HOT TUB.
> The primary load is an "inductive load."
I would guess a primary hot tub load is the heaters, which are a "Resistive
load". Wrong again.
> Maybe so. But it sure as hell "dries up" leakage paths.
And eats the crap out of the plastic insulation. WD40 is a primarily a
solvent and de-greaser... not a lubricant. Wrong again.
> Contact cleaner does a good job of cleaning contacts. WD-40 does a good
> job of reducing electrical leakage from the combination of moisture and
> surface contamination.
I guess "electrical leakage" does not include the conductor insulation
failing. Wrong again.
Jake
p...@see_my_sig_for_address.com
wrote:
>
><pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
>news:f0r78154dkpoknt58...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 12 May 2005 23:45:33 GMT, "Jake" <jkel...@insightbb.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>SQ,
>>>
>>>You're right... this may have been one of those times when I MEANT to say
>>>one thing and type another. Anyhow, my point was that 480 is not
>>>considered
>>>high voltage. Thanks....
>>>
>>>I need a vacation!
>>
>> What a perfect opportunity for you to visit MGTC ( Minion
>> Getaway Timeshare Condos ) in Florida !
>>
>> We have lovely timeshares available at very reasonable terms,
>> and lunch is on us ! While you're here, you will have, at no extra
>> charge, a special once-in-a-lifetime chance to win the retirement home
>> of your dreams, for a low low sweepstakes entry fee of only .....
>
>Don't do it! It is a rip-off!
>
>I did the Minion Deluxe vacation package last year and I ended up sharing a
>bunk bed with three other minions (and one wasn't even Vicki).
>
>The minion waterslide wasn't too bad, though.
Ummm... there actually IS no 'waterslide', per se, Oscar. I
know that's what we told you at the time, but it was actually just a
back-up problem with the plumbing.
Sorry, Minion bad.
Oscar_Lives
<pjm@see_my_sig_for_address.com> wrote in message
news:5g2881dou2oka81lm...@4ax.com...
You have got to be kidding. I'm ticked now.
I guess that you are also going to tell me that there wasn't any "magic meat
flute" contest either....
Jake
Julie is gonna FORCE me to take a vacation soon.... so we'll end up
somewhere hot and uncomfortable, with not enough beer around, and have a
"memorable" family vacation.
Either that.... or perhaps me and oldest son can take the bikes and visit my
sister in Michigan... and troll around the UP. No.... the better half
wouldn't buy that at all....
Maybe we'll just fly to Vegas... just the two of us (Julie and me). Do they
still have water slides (-;....?
Jake
John Gilmer
> >
> > 1) motors per se don't make GFCIs trip.
>
> Wrong... again. Google it. Some AFCI's have microprocessors in them that
> recognize motor or lighting "signatures" and prevent nuisance tripping.
Complete nonsense!
Some appliance which are completely inductive (pressure washers) have GFCI
built into the cords set.
You are the victim of an urban legend.
>
> > Maybe so. But it sure as hell "dries up" leakage paths.
>
> And eats the crap out of the plastic insulation. WD40 is a primarily a
> solvent and de-greaser... not a lubricant. Wrong again.
>
> > Contact cleaner does a good job of cleaning contacts. WD-40 does a
good
> > job of reducing electrical leakage from the combination of moisture and
> > surface contamination.
>
> I guess "electrical leakage" does not include the conductor insulation
> failing. Wrong again.
REALLY?
WD-40 damages insulation. Sure. Now take your medication and go to bed.
>
> Jake
>
>
>
PrecisionMachinisT
>
>
> > >
> > > 1) motors per se don't make GFCIs trip.
> >
> > Wrong... again. Google it. Some AFCI's have microprocessors in them that
> > recognize motor or lighting "signatures" and prevent nuisance tripping.
>
> Complete nonsense!
>
> Some appliance which are completely inductive (pressure washers) have GFCI
> built into the cords set.
>
Show me one that runs off 220v
> You are the victim of an urban legend.
>
> >
> > > Maybe so. But it sure as hell "dries up" leakage paths.
> >
> > And eats the crap out of the plastic insulation. WD40 is a primarily a
> > solvent and de-greaser... not a lubricant. Wrong again.
> >
> > > Contact cleaner does a good job of cleaning contacts. WD-40 does a
> good
> > > job of reducing electrical leakage from the combination of moisture
and
> > > surface contamination.
> >
> > I guess "electrical leakage" does not include the conductor insulation
> > failing. Wrong again.
>
> REALLY?
>
> WD-40 damages insulation. Sure. Now take your medication and go to bed.
>
Hmmm....thinkin maybe I should make up a batch of popcorn.........
--
SVL
Oscar_Lives
Maybe you'll luck out again this year and they'll have a badass hurricane
again down south, and you can spend another month down their restringing
wires....
:-)
>
Jake
about everything... absolutely correct. I am humbled before you.
In my 20 plus years of commercial electrical work I've never met anyone as
smart as you.
It would be my advice to keep spraying that GREAT WD-40 over every
electrical wire in your home, and splash around in that hot tub a great deal
while you gleefully discuss with your other MENSA members how stupid trades
people are. Have a great-old-time.
GFCI's.. and AFCI's.... are made for people just like you. Hang a hot tub or
DIY outlet in your home and you'll be protected by these magical devices.
It doesn't happen that way. Electricity is smarter than you and me both. It
always finds a way home. You bring it into your life, without a pro, you
better know how it works.
But then again, you do, Oh mighty One!
Have a great life.
Jake
Jake
> WD-40 damages insulation. Sure. Now take your medication and go to bed.
>
Ok... one other thing... look at http://tinyurl.com/8d4pm if you're so
inclined. This links you to Underwriters Laboratories web site.
If not, the pertinent part is:
"Wire suitable for exposure to mineral oil is marked "Oil Resistant I" for
60°C oil resistance, or "Oil Resistant II" for 75°C oil resistance, on the
surface of the wire. An Oil Resistant marking, by itself, does not include
resistance to gasoline or similar light petroleum solvents."
WD-40... while the company will not exactly what's in the product.... says
it contains petroleum distillates (light petroleum) and should not be used
on materials not compatible with petroleum.
Funny that their web site lists dozens of uses for WD... but has a tiny
disclaimer saying that the WD-40 company has not tested any of these uses...
that they are submitted by customers.. and will not accept liability for any
use.
If I sound stuffy about this... it is because I like WD-40 and use it
regularly for its original intended use... cleaning rusty stuff and
protecting it from rusting again... like motor mounting bolts, taper lock
pulleys, keyway set screws, and even electrical bare-copper buss
interconnections.. It's a great product for that. But it is NOT primarily a
lubricant, and it drives water away from stuff because it contains
petroleum.. and not suitable for plastic insulated wiring. I've seen it fail
wire insulation enough times.
If anybody else is still following this thread, BTW, check out PB-BLASTER
instead of WD for use as solvent/degreaser. That stuff works wonders. Things
that I used to "take the torch to" are freed with this product. I buy it by
the case at NAPA. It's not compatible with wire insulation, either
Jake
John Gilmer
>
> WD-40... while the company will not exactly what's in the product.... says
> it contains petroleum distillates (light petroleum) and should not be used
> on materials not compatible with petroleum.
Well when I check the WD-40 website I found:
"What surfaces or materials are OK to use WD-40 on?
WD-40 can be used on just about everything. It is safe for metal, rubber,
wood and plastic. WD-40 can be applied to painted metal surfaces without
harming the paint. Polycarbonate and clear polystyrene plastic are among the
few surfaces on which to avoid using a petroleum-based product like WD-40."
>
> Funny that their web site lists dozens of uses for WD... but has a tiny
> disclaimer saying that the WD-40 company has not tested any of these
uses...
> that they are submitted by customers.. and will not accept liability for
any
> use.
Well, the selection from the FAQ which I copied flat out says that WD-40 is
safe for rubber and plastic with two exceptions.
The plastics they mention are often used in applications where the material
is in continuous water contact. So if you spray WD-40 where there
shouldn't be water but there temporarily is a little moisture, you should be
OK.
Even with those plastics, since the solvent does evaporate relatively
quickly, it's at least as safe as oil.
>
>
> If I sound stuffy about this... it is because I like WD-40 and use it
> regularly for its original intended use... cleaning rusty stuff and
> protecting it from rusting again... like motor mounting bolts, taper lock
> pulleys, keyway set screws, and even electrical bare-copper buss
> interconnections.. It's a great product for that.
>But it is NOT primarily a
> lubricant,
Actually, WD-40 is a HORRIBLE lubricant. It has two components: the
solvent/lubricant part and the water displacement/repellant part. The
solvent/lubricant part will evaporate in a relatively short time leaving no
lube behind. It a good TEMPORARY lube to help loosen something up but it
evaporates.
> and it drives water away from stuff because it contains
> petroleum.. and not suitable for plastic insulated wiring.
Well, I have seen it remove printing from wires (but not the color coding
"stripe.")
>I've seen it fail
> wire insulation enough times.
What, exactly, do you see? The stuff evaporates rather quickly. Did it
cause the insulation of the wire to fall apart or to permanently change in
appearance after the solvent has evaporated? I have sprayed it on all
kinds of wiring. I have never see any negative effect.
Aside from this thread, the only negative things I heard about WD-40 was
that if it it used on firearms and gets in contact (before the solvent has
evaporated) with ammunition, it tends to penetrate the ammo and affect the
powder charge.
Back when cars weren't quite to reliable it was routine to use WD-40 to "dry
up" a wet ignition system.
It's truly a "natural" in a situation where a GFCI is tripping because of a
mixture of water and surface contamination.
This whole thread started over whether an industion motor would be expected
to trip a GFCI. If something with an induction motor trips a GFCI the
fault is likely some stray leakage path which the WD-40 may well clear up.
> If anybody else is still following this thread, BTW, check out PB-BLASTER
> instead of WD for use as solvent/degreaser. That stuff works wonders.
Things
> that I used to "take the torch to" are freed with this product. I buy it
by
> the case at NAPA. It's not compatible with wire insulation, either
Again, WTF does it DO to the wire insulation?
EMWTK
Jake
> Again, WTF does it DO to the wire insulation?
>
> EMWTK
>
What I've seen is insulation failure... i.e. conductors being exposed...
after customers have used WD40 in enclosed electrical cabinets. This
particularly occurs at-or-near raceway connections to the cabinet.
I've seen it numerous times, and while I cannot provide empirical data to
back up the claim... I have observed "cause and affect".
The bottom line is... why chance it? No, the wire will not fail
immediately... or maybe ever. No, it won't change in appearance. But plastic
wire insulation is made of petroleum products, and it only makes sense that
other liquid petroleum products will weaken the insulation. Why would anyone
do that... particularly in a hot tub?
If you've got water leaks around electrical wiring... them fix them... or
use wire capable of operating perfectly safely in wet or even submerged
applications. But spraying WD40 on them is not the answer... you are merely
masking the symptoms (and making them eventually worse) rather than treating
the cause.
If you want to discuss this further, then email me off list and I'll reply
if I feel like it. I think everybody else is bored with the discussion!
Jake
Vicki Szaszvari
Jake wrote:
Ooooh, Jake, I'm PROUD of you! Didn't know you had it in you. (Must
have been hanging around with some HVAC people or something.)
Jake
> Ooooh, Jake, I'm PROUD of you! Didn't know you had it in you. (Must
> have been hanging around with some HVAC people or something.)
>
No, I've been a outspoken jerk my whole life. This fellow just got me going
a little bit....
... and maybe some of those here are 'rubbing off' as to Usenet etiquette as
well.
Jake
Tekkie®
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.
> ... and maybe some of those here are 'rubbing off'
>
Mom said you would go blind...
--
Tekkie