plaintext
Tami Fischer
Is it true that the tag <plaintext> is gone now?
When yeah why?
--
Tami Fischer
rf
"Tami Fischer" <tam...@h2.dion.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:18WHa.1179$t6....@news1.dion.ne.jp...
> Hello there,
>
> Is it true that the tag <plaintext> is gone now?
?
Was there ever one?
Don't you mean <pre>?
Cheers
Richard.
Steve Pugh
>Is it true that the tag <plaintext> is gone now?
Now? It was listed as obsolete in HTML 2.0 back in 1995.
It doesn't exist at all in HTML 4.x or any version of XHTML.
Yeah, it's gone.
>When yeah why?
Because it's useless and risky. How many documents do you want where
everything from a certain point up to the end of the file is treated
as text and not markup? (Despite what some browsers did there was no
such thing as </plaintext> and so it was impossible to start parsing
again after a plaintext block, it was all the way to the end of the
document.)
What do you want to use it for?
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <st...@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
Tami Fischer
The tag <plaintext> WAS so useful to me.
To view codes in a page i write this way now.
-------
<html>
<head><title>example</title>
</head>
<body>
blah blah codes here
</body>
</html>
<plaintext>
blah blah codes
(with <>, not < ,>)
-------
<pre></pre> takes time to display but I hope it will be with us(Me).
Will <pre></pre> be with us for the future(i mean 'safe')?
--
Tami Fischer
Dylan Parry
> Will <pre></pre> be with us for the future(i mean 'safe')?
For the forseable future, maybe. Yet whatever happens to the <pre>
element, there will be good enough support for the CSS alternative when it
comes to the time for <pre> to retire. It will be with us for a good few
years yet.
--
Dylan Parry - http://www.DylanParry.com
Not playing any music, but savouring the silence.
Dylan Parry
> opera, IE, mozilla and even <gasp/> NS4.76 support white-space:pre;
Goodie goodie. I didn't bother to check the master grid, but rather just
"assumed" that older browsers would crap out as usual ;o) OTOH, what
element would you use along with "white-space:pre;"? I mean, what element
would have sufficient semantic meaning?
Dylan Parry
>> OTOH, what element would you use along with "white-space:pre;"? I mean,
>> what element would have sufficient semantic meaning?
>
> i'm still thinking about it, thats why i didn't mention it in my previous
> post. i'm trying to think of a situation where pre would be nice but
> unimportant if css wasn't available/supported.
I really cannot think of any situation when this would be of use. It's
like when opening a *nix text file in Windows Notepad and finding that all
the end of line characters are crapping out everywhere.
I guess that if I wanted to put an old newsletter on my site, for example,
normally I would use <pre> so that it appears the same as when it was sent
as an email, but I guess it wouldn't matter if the line breaks were not
preserved. Maybe this is the only useful situation?
--
Dylan Parry - http://www.DylanParry.com
Now playing: The Corrs, Little wings from Talk on Corners
Tim Radford
<plasnant....@supanet.com> wrote:
> Line breaks can often be useful in poetry
Sorry, that should have been:
Line breaks can often be <br /> useful in poetry
--
Tim
Tim Radford
<dy...@webpageworkshop.co.uk> wrote:
> I guess that if I wanted to put an old newsletter on my site, for
> example,
> normally I would use <pre> so that it appears the same as when it was
> sent
> as an email, but I guess it wouldn't matter if the line breaks were not
> preserved. Maybe this is the only useful situation?
Line breaks can often be useful in poetry
--
Tim
Chris Morris
> > example,
> > normally I would use <pre> so that it appears the same as when it
> > was sent
> > as an email, but I guess it wouldn't matter if the line breaks were not
> > preserved. Maybe this is the only useful situation?
>
> Line breaks can often be useful in poetry
True, but in that case
<div class="verse">
<div class="line">...</div>
<div class="line">...</div>
<div class="line">...</div>
</div>
seems a better way to do it.
--
Chris
Ernest Cline
"brucie" <bru...@loser.brucies.com> wrote:
> Tami Fischer said...
>
>
> > Is it true that the tag <plaintext> is gone now?
>
>
> > When
>
> 1994
>
> its in RFC1866 (HTML 2). after a quick look couldn't find a mention in
> HTML+ but it was obsoleted in HTML 3 which was an extend version of
> HTML+
>
> > yeah why?
>
> The XMP, LISTING and PLAINTEXT tags are incompatible with SGML
> and derive from very early versions of HTML. They require non-
> standard parsers and will cause problems for processing
> documents with standard SGML tools. [HTML 3 DTD]
Not only that but all three were kludges that were intended only as
temporary fixes for the lack of entity and character reference support in
early versions of the CERN X11 browser. HOWEVER, the XMP and LISTING tags
can be handled as SGML. The DTD fragment,
<!ELEMENT XMP - - CDATA>
<!ELEMENT LISTING - - CDATA>
is perfectly valid SGML and gives the characteristics of these two tags.
While some SGML tools don't handle CDATA content properly, it is a valid
content model. They look unusual to an HTML user because every other HTML
tag (with the exception of PLAINTEXT) uses PCDATA indtead of CDATA when it
has non-markup content.
The PLAINTEXT tag tho, AFAIK, can only be approximated in SGML. The DTD
fragment:
<!ELEMENT HTML O O HEAD, BODY, PLAINTEXT?>
<!ELEMENT PLAINTEXT - O CDATA>
comes close to giving the behavior of PLAINTEXT except that PLAINTEXT
ignores its closing tag even if present. That is not possible to specify in
SGML as far as I know. It might be possible with something other than the
standard <!SGML> declaration, but my knowledge of SGML does not extend far
enough to say that a non-standard <!SGML> declaration could or could not do
it. In any case even if one could come up with an <!SGML> declaration that
would make the described behavior of PLAINTEXT legal, given all the problems
involved with ordinary CDATA content as sanctioned by the standard SGML
declaration, I would not be surprised to find that few SGML tools would
support it.
Nick Theodorakis
[snip re: use of <pre>]
>
>I really cannot think of any situation when this would be of use.
[...]
I can think of some examples in my field, but they would be somewhat
specialized. For example, in displaying nucleotide sequences from two
related genes, it's useful to align the equivalent parts together to
show where they are the same or different. e.g:
<pre>
<tt>
gene1: AGGCTGATTGATTACATGTA...
| |
gene2: AGGCTGATGGATTACAAGTA...
</tt>
</pre>
(<grin> I wonder if <code> would be proper for genetic code?)
Also, I believe Stan Brown had some pages where he used <pre> to draw
some ascii genealogy trees.
Nick
--
Nick Theodorakis
nicholas_t...@urmc.rochester.edu
"Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted,
but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons."
Jukka K. Korpela
> For example, in displaying nucleotide sequences from two
> related genes, it's useful to align the equivalent parts together to
> show where they are the same or different. e.g:
I fail to see the idea from your example. Viewed with a monospace font,
the vertical bars appear on the right of the letter sequences. Viewed
with a proportional font, they seem to connect some letters.
Anyway, even if a <pre> element might be justifiable in such a case for
practical reasons, it's logically a table you have got, with two rows,
I would say. Putting each code letter into a cell of its own would be
tedious, though possible using a preprocessor.
> (<grin> I wonder if <code> would be proper for genetic code?)
I take the question half-seriously. No, it would not; it is not
computer code even under a broad interpretation. But there probably
_should_ be markup that indicates text as code in a general sense, as
not being words in some language.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
Dylan Parry
> [snip re: use of <pre>]
>>I really cannot think of any situation when this would be of use.
> [...]
Actually you have read this out of context. It was not that <pre> has no
use, in fact I think it does, but rather that the CSS alternative applied
to a non-<pre> element is rather pointless as without CSS it would not
look right. What example can you think of where preformating would be nice
but not essential, enough so that you bother to use CSS to achieve it?
--
Dylan Parry - http://www.DylanParry.com
Not playing any music, but savouring the silence.
Denise Enck
"Chris Morris" wrote in message news:87he6no...@dinopsis.dur.ac.uk...
> Tim Radford writes:
> >
> > Line breaks can often be useful in poetry
>
> True, but in that case
> <div class="verse">
> <div class="line">...</div>
> <div class="line">...</div>
> <div class="line">...</div>
> </div>
> seems a better way to do it.
>
> --
> Chris
>
No, for much modern poetry <pre> really is the only practical way to do it.
I suppose it could be done with CSS as you suggest, but it would be
extremely cumbersome.
Although through the first half of the 20th Century the great majority of
poetry was written in stanzas & lines that begin at the the left margin,
most modern poetry utilizes other forms, often irregularly spanning the
page.
Here is an example: www.emptymirrorbooks.com/syn/synaesthesia4.html
(it is a very old page/site not using the wisest current html but is still
useful for the example of the poem's form)
best,
Denise
Nick Theodorakis
<jkor...@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
>nicholas_t...@urmc.rochester.edu (Nick Theodorakis) wrote:
>
>> For example, in displaying nucleotide sequences from two
>> related genes, it's useful to align the equivalent parts together to
>> show where they are the same or different. e.g:
>
>I fail to see the idea from your example. Viewed with a monospace font,
>the vertical bars appear on the right of the letter sequences. Viewed
>with a proportional font, they seem to connect some letters.
>
D'oh! That's what I get for composing a message in using a
proportional font.
I should have just made an example page in the first place to
illustrate my point, such as:
<http://theodorakis.net/pre.html>
>Anyway, even if a <pre> element might be justifiable in such a case for
>practical reasons, it's logically a table you have got, with two rows,
>I would say. Putting each code letter into a cell of its own would be
>tedious, though possible using a preprocessor.
>
I suppose it could logically be a table, but practical matters would
make it problematic with large data sets.
FatBlokeO...@pinsmother-truckers.co.uk
>(it is a very old page/site not using the wisest current html but is still
>useful for the example of the poem's form)
>
>best,
>Denise
>
Jacqui or Pete
nicholas_t...@urmc.rochester.edu says...
... use of <pre>
> >> For example, in displaying nucleotide sequences from two
> >> related genes, it's useful to align the equivalent parts together to
> >> show where they are the same or different. e.g:
> >
...
> <http://theodorakis.net/pre.html>
>
...
I was going to suggest http://porjes.haxorz.org/connexin32.html - but it
seems pretty useless in text browsers.
Jukka K. Korpela
> I should have just made an example page in the first place to
> illustrate my point, such as:
>
> <http://theodorakis.net/pre.html>
Me too (variant of your page with <pre> replaced by a table):
<http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/test/pre.html>
> I suppose it could logically be a table, but practical matters
> would make it problematic with large data sets.
After my little experiment, using just my own hands & Emacs, I tend to
agree. But using a table, it would be easier to add styling.
Denise Enck
news:ids2fvonlpn1t5i4b...@4ax.com...
not sure what you mean by that.
?
best,
Denise
FatBlokeO...@pinsmother-truckers.co.uk
>>
>
>not sure what you mean by that.
>
>?
>
>best,
>Denise
>
soit'nly detracted *me*) from the message the "poem" was trying to convey so much that
all I could see and all I can recall was the construction. The mind boggles as to the
results were the author not limited to the width of one page.
Denise Enck
news:33e5fv0d853i4e7it...@4ax.com...
sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a "message".
form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they are
inseparable.
many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions, projections of
sensory perceptions. asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there is no
answer. there is only experience.
cheers ~
Denise
FatBlokeO...@pinsmother-truckers.co.uk
>> Simply that such an affectation pursued to the degree in your example,
>detracts (well, it
>> soit'nly detracted *me*) from the message the "poem" was trying to convey
>so much that
>> all I could see and all I can recall was the construction. The mind
>boggles as to the
>> results were the author not limited to the width of one page.
>>
>
>sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
>
>as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a "message".
>form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they are
>inseparable.
"message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of time and effort; one may
as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed, in any language.
The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all that is communicated is
that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....
>
>many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions, projections of
>sensory perceptions.
asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
>does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there is no
>answer. there is only experience.
practise clapping with one hand.
Denise Enck
news:ud2cfv4rllf0hr50v...@4ax.com...
> >
> >sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
> >
> >as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a
"message".
> >form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they are
> >inseparable.
> If it was not trying to convey a message (and there has to be a word
better than
> "message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of time and
effort; one may
> as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed, in any
language.
> The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all that is
communicated is
> that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....
words do not always send a "message" though they may indeed communicate. the
form also communicates.
think of this: your words above take the form of sentences & communicate a
certain thing.
in another form the same words - even in the same sequence - may convey
something else completely.
modern, postmodern, & experimental poetry, unlike other (for example,
traditional) poetry, are not didactic or linear.
much contemporary poetry - as most art - is about making connections between
things not usually connected, making discoveries; it is proprioceptive,
organic & doesn't fit into pre-existing forms (however, that is not to say
that sonnets & villanelles, for example, are not still written sometimes).
Some of the best poetry since WWII has been influenced by other modern arts,
such as painting, sculpture, & jazz. It is most often not presented in
traditional forms such as neat stanzas with each line beginning with a
capital letter & bumped agains the left margin....the way you (& most of us)
probably read poetry back in school.
what is not possible is an equation such as:
this poem = this meaning
poems are not a code to be broken or a riddle to be solved. they may
communicate, they may have a message, but they are not encrypted - they can
only exist as they are.
what is the message of a Jackson Pollock painting or of a Coltrane tune?
They are to be experienced - you can't ascribe a particular "meaning" or
"message" to either. The same is true for poetry.
> >many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions, projections
of
> >sensory perceptions.
> Conveying that is the message.
> asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
> >does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there is no
> >answer. there is only experience.
> Ooops, I seem to have strayed into the alt.zen group. 'scuse me while I
go away and
> practise clapping with one hand.
Yes, a study of Zen would certainly shed light on modern poetics, much of
which has been influenced (especially since the 1950s) either directly, or
indirectly, by Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies.
if you are interested in learning more about modern poetry & open forms, I
would suggest:
http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/proj.verse.html projective verse
http://www.corpse.org/issue_4/critical_urgencies/ferling.htm Lawrence
Ferlinghetti's essay on modern poetics - especially wonderful is his "What
is Poetry?"
http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/ click on any of the links for poems by some
of the best-known modern poets
http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/ excellent resource for Beat Generation &
modern poetry books & information including poems
as this has veered waaayyyy away from the subject of "acceptable uses of the
<pre> tag," if you would like to discuss modern poetics further please feel
free to drop me an email ~
cheers ~
Denise
FatBlokeO...@pinsmother-truckers.co.uk
Oh dear, an apostle...
There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Beg your pudding while I add to my killfile.
Denise Enck
<FatBlokeOnBikepins> wrote in message
news:n6edfvokokqg7aps1...@4ax.com...
> .
> Oh dear, an apostle...
>
> There are none so blind as those who will not see.
>
> Beg your pudding while I add to my killfile.
>
whatever....
and PLEASE do not top-post here! if you do so, it is you who will
undoubtedly be killfiled by many in this group.
best,
Denise
Headless
[huge snip]
>and PLEASE do not top-post here! if you do so, it is you who will
>undoubtedly be killfiled by many in this group.
Before you start lecturing others: there's one thing worse than top
posting: bottom posting without snipping (as you are doing).
Headless