Paying project for graphic artist
Scott Kramer
Our graphic artist left town! In the middle of a project, no less.
This is a single piece, one-time deal. We will be looking for a permenant
replacement for our AWOL employee in the near future. In the meantime,
getting this job done will suffice.
All details are at:
http://www.convergence-inc.com/offer/
Hope to hear from you.
Peace,
Scott Kramer
kra...@convergence-inc.com (corp. account)
scott...@mindspring.com (pers. account)
Virtualoso
In article
<scottkramer-11...@user-2k7i7h7.dialup.mindspring.com>, "Scott
Kramer" <scott...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Sorry, Scott... but you're looking for folks to go ahead and do design
work entirely on "spec". That means that you expect folks to work for
free, just on the chance that you maybe might pay them something - and you
don't even say how much.
Bad deal. Very bad deal.
And some of the things said at your site sound fishy, to boot.
--
Remove "X" from email address.
EMPIRE Visual Communications
You designer left most likely cause you were paying diddly-squat. Maybe if
you
proposed the amount that you are offering, you might be taken seriously. BTW
that's 40% up front.
Regards
Virtualoso wrote in message ...
EMPIRE Visual Communications
Might I recommend a local artist for your work. This way when you do not
pay, it will be easier for the artist to take you into court and force a
settlement. IF you have to go on the net to find someone, most likely you
are not on the level wtiht your local people and looking for new fish to
fry.
Regards
Plato Technology Ltd wrote in message ...
>In article, EMPIRE Visual Communications <e...@nospam.com> writes
>If you dont like the sound of the proposal, then dont reply. Obviously
>Mr Kramer cannot say he will pay X amount upfront, or even X amount in
>total in case the work he receives is rubbish and unusable.
>
>The amount that is payed should be between the designer and the person
>who employes their services. Money may only be a part of the payment
>that the designer would like (eg. recognition, advertising space in
>return, a link to their own page etc. etc.)
>
>I would be much more suspicious of someone promising XXX amount of cash
>in a newsgroup posting for work they have not even seen yet ! Now
>wouldn't that sound fishy ?
>
>-Neil King
>
>(Remove the DELETE-ME from my email if you wish to contact me directly)
Virtualoso
In article <CiVTEBAKOba0EwK$@plato-tec.demon.co.uk>, Plato Technology Ltd
<PLAT...@plato-tec.DELETE-MEdemon.co.uk> wrote:
> >><scottkramer-11...@user-2k7i7h7.dialup.mindspring.com>, "Scott
> >>Kramer" <scott...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Our graphic artist left town! In the middle of a project, no less.
> >>>
> >>> This is a single piece, one-time deal. We will be looking for a permenant
> >>> replacement for our AWOL employee in the near future. In the meantime,
> >>> getting this job done will suffice.
> >>>
> >>> All details are at...
> >> Virtualoso wrote:
> >>Sorry, Scott... but you're looking for folks to go ahead and do design
> >>work entirely on "spec". That means that you expect folks to work for
> >>free, just on the chance that you maybe might pay them something - and you
> >>don't even say how much.
> >>
> >>Bad deal. Very bad deal.
> >>
> >>And some of the things said at your site sound fishy, to boot.
> If you dont like the sound of the proposal, then dont reply.
If you don't like the sound of my reply, then don't reply.
On a discussion newsgroup, it's just about as appropriate as it can get to
discuss such things as exploitive "offers" seeking to take advantage of
designers.
> Obviously
> Mr Kramer cannot say he will pay X amount upfront, or even X amount in
> total in case the work he receives is rubbish and unusable.
Obviously, he should only be hiring the one individual whose work he finds
satisfactory, rather than thinking that folks should be working on his
stuff for free and competing with some unknown number of others so that he
can sit back and choose which he likes best without paying all the folks
for their time.
How many restaurants can you get to cook you a meal so that you can then
pick which dinner you'd like to eat and only pay for that one?
> The amount that is payed should be between the designer and the person
> who employes their services. Money may only be a part of the payment
> that the designer would like (eg. recognition, advertising space in
> return, a link to their own page etc. etc.)
I didn't see any money, or anything else, being outright offered *before*
designers are being sought to do the work with *maybe* a chance that
someone will get paid for doing so. That's quite different than any
confidentiality of compensations between designer/client. Those other
"payments" you cite are just about worthless anyway, so we needn't waste
any more time on that.
> I would be much more suspicious of someone promising XXX amount of cash
> in a newsgroup posting for work they have not even seen yet ! Now
> wouldn't that sound fishy ?
Not at all. A given piece of work could very well have an objective value.
And only paid to the individual that earns it.
Plato Technology Ltd
In article, EMPIRE Visual Communications <e...@nospam.com> writes
>You designer left most likely cause you were paying diddly-squat. Maybe if
>you
>proposed the amount that you are offering, you might be taken seriously. BTW
>that's 40% up front.
>
>Regards
>Virtualoso wrote in message ...
>>In article
>>Kramer" <scott...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Our graphic artist left town! In the middle of a project, no less.
>>>
>>> This is a single piece, one-time deal. We will be looking for a
>permenant
>>> replacement for our AWOL employee in the near future. In the meantime,
>>> getting this job done will suffice.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.convergence-inc.com/offer/
>>>
>>> Hope to hear from you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>>
>>> Scott Kramer
>>> kra...@convergence-inc.com (corp. account)
>>> scott...@mindspring.com (pers. account)
>>
>>work entirely on "spec". That means that you expect folks to work for
>>free, just on the chance that you maybe might pay them something - and you
>>don't even say how much.
>>
>>Bad deal. Very bad deal.
>>
>>And some of the things said at your site sound fishy, to boot.
>>
>>Remove "X" from email address.
>
>
Mr Kramer cannot say he will pay X amount upfront, or even X amount in
total in case the work he receives is rubbish and unusable.
The amount that is payed should be between the designer and the person
who employes their services. Money may only be a part of the payment
that the designer would like (eg. recognition, advertising space in
return, a link to their own page etc. etc.)
I would be much more suspicious of someone promising XXX amount of cash
in a newsgroup posting for work they have not even seen yet ! Now
wouldn't that sound fishy ?
-Neil King
Plato Technology Ltd
In article, Virtualoso <virtu...@Xinnocent.com> writes
>In article, Plato Technology Ltd
><PLAT...@plato-tec.DELETE-MEdemon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >> Virtualoso wrote:
>> >>Sorry, Scott... but you're looking for folks to go ahead and do design
>> >>work entirely on "spec". That means that you expect folks to work for
>> >>free, just on the chance that you maybe might pay them something - and you
>> >>don't even say how much.
>> >>
>> >>Bad deal. Very bad deal.
>> >>
>> >>And some of the things said at your site sound fishy, to boot.
>
>
>
>On a discussion newsgroup, it's just about as appropriate as it can get to
>discuss such things as exploitive "offers" seeking to take advantage of
>designers.
What I meant was, do not do the work if you dont like the sound of it
>
>> Obviously
>> Mr Kramer cannot say he will pay X amount upfront, or even X amount in
>> total in case the work he receives is rubbish and unusable.
>
>Obviously, he should only be hiring the one individual whose work he finds
>satisfactory, rather than thinking that folks should be working on his
>stuff for free and competing with some unknown number of others so that he
>can sit back and choose which he likes best without paying all the folks
>for their time.
If you checked out the link from the posting you would find that he does
offer to PAY the individual at current graphic designer rates for the
work. Would you not prefer to have several graphics to choose from,
rather than being forced to pay for one you do not like ? If your time
is so valuable that spending half an hour designing a possible profit
making graphic is pointless, then do not create a design.
>
>How many restaurants can you get to cook you a meal so that you can then
>pick which dinner you'd like to eat and only pay for that one?
When you order a meal, you know what you are getting. Understand ?
>
>> The amount that is payed should be between the designer and the person
>> who employes their services. Money may only be a part of the payment
>> that the designer would like (eg. recognition, advertising space in
>> return, a link to their own page etc. etc.)
>
>I didn't see any money, or anything else, being outright offered *before*
>designers are being sought to do the work with *maybe* a chance that
>someone will get paid for doing so. That's quite different than any
>confidentiality of compensations between designer/client. Those other
>"payments" you cite are just about worthless anyway, so we needn't waste
>any more time on that.
Again, if you check out the link on Scott's original posting, you will
find that he offers current designers rates. Plus, I do not particularly
want everybody to know what I earn. Do you ?
The other payments are certainly not worthless. If someone else sees and
likes the work you have done, they will seek you out and contract more
work. More work = more money. I have proved this to be right with past
ventures.
>
>> I would be much more suspicious of someone promising XXX amount of cash
>> in a newsgroup posting for work they have not even seen yet ! Now
>> wouldn't that sound fishy ?
>
>Not at all. A given piece of work could very well have an objective value.
>And only paid to the individual that earns it.
>
It could have a fixed value, but in this case it does not. The value
will depend on the quality and speed of response. As stated.
I do not wish to defend the requests of others because people do not
understand. The reason I defended it in the first place was because I
disagreed with people making it out to be a scam without knowing what
was involved. It is basically a case of personal choice if you do the
work or not.
-Neil King
Scott Kramer
I'm sorry that some of you feel so negatively about the offer our company
made. I'm not in the habit of justifying how a business decision is made,
but I thought I'd add my side of it since some of you feel this strongly
about it.
Our original graphic artist left for personal reasons. It had nothing to do
with our company and he had no grievance with us with regard to
compensation.
Why did we not advertise locally? Advertising on the Web sends the message
to everybody, incluidng the artists that are local to us. The response is
much faster than putting out a paper ad, and much more effective. This
particular project is one that does not require someone to be on-site, so
why limit ourselves?
As far as paying people for their work.. I don't know what I can say that
would make someone who is convinced that something is a scam to believe it
is, in fact, legitimate. Certainly, there are copyright laws in place that
would protect people from us soliciting this material and then just using
it. Not to mention the kind of reputation that would ensue in the Web
community about our company. Wouldn't it be much more to our benefit to pay
someone a fair price for this job and have them leaving saying positive
things about our organization? Besides, generally, scams work to steal
money, not graphic art of televisions. I'd like to think that if I were to
come up with a scam, it would be a little more imaginative and have a
potential monetary benefit.
The fact is that you can visit countless sites that aspiring graphic artists
have put up to display their works. The majority of them will allow you to
use their work (even for commercial use) for little more than a link to
their site and some recognition. Because we are on a time table, we are
willing to pay for the time it would take to surf these sites and modify a
piece to our specifications. It would work against this time table to put
out an ad for a graphic ARTIST, screen the resumes, interview them, review
work that has nothing to do with what we want, and hire them.. and then
still have to get the work done. Why not put out an ad for the ART itself?
It's what we want. If someone already had one in their portfolio, they did
no work at all. If they didn't, a job of this size shouldn't be that big a
deal for peoplo who consider themselves graphic artists. If people aren't
willing to work without a contract, they don't have to. I totally respect
that. But it is just impractical to draw up a contract for a project this
small.
Again, I have not coerced anyone into working for us for free. The
submissions we don't use will simply become parts of their respective
portfolios. I don't believe we have done anything unethical or unfair here.
We are just looking for some art.
Scott Kramer
PS - Thank you to everyone who have already submitted samples to us. There
is a lot of real telent out there.
Corrupt
Why are you even continuing this conversation? If he can find someone
stupid enough to take on a "possible job", then let him. If anyone is out
of whack enough to enter this as a business deal, like to do custom artwork
to test thier skills, or are just nuts, let them. This thread isnt worth
pursuing...R u n n i n g o u
t o f B
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