Installation Cost of Nat Gas Generator?

[Arnie Goetchius]

How much should I figure in my budget for installation of a natural gas
generator? I'm looking at a 6-7 KW generator to handle refrigerator,
freezer, sump pump, gas furnace, computers, TV and some lights but not
Air Conditioning. It looks like I need an electrician for installing a
transfer box and outlet to the outside to connect to the generator and a
plumber to hook up a gas line. Generator would be about 20 feet from the
electric breaker box and the gas line.

There are a number of companies here (Central NJ) that will do the whole
job and wonder what a package price might be for everything that I
described above?

This may be a DIY for many people but DIY is not for me for this project.

I would do this in the Spring after all of the work on Sandy repair is done.

[Oren]

What you will pay in NJ is not the same as what it would cost in Two
Egg, Florida. It's a local thing. Check locally.

I can guess what it would cost. $14.00

[Arnie Goetchius]

Do the transfer switches used by Generac accept aluminum wire?. My house
was built in 1968 and the wiring to most of the circuit breakers is AL.
Only new circuits added since the house was built are CU.

[Oren]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 19:33:46 -0500, Arnie Goetchius

Sorry I cannot help with this. Someone here may jump in and give you
advice. I'm dangerous around electricity. :-\

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:22:56 -0500, Arnie Goetchius
<arnie.g...@invalid.domain> wrote:

>How much should I figure in my budget for installation of a natural gas
>generator?

$65 to $75 an hour around here.

[The Daring Dufas]

Power switching equipment usually has connectors rated for both copper
and aluminum. The Generac transfer switches I installed all had Cu/Al
connectors for the large wires. ^_^

TDD

[bob haller]

> Do the transfer switches used by Generac accept aluminum wire?. My house
> was built in 1968 and the wiring to most of the circuit breakers is AL.
> Only new circuits added since the house was built are CU.

pigtail any areas of concern, around here home depot was selling a
generac installed as a package price

[CRNG]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:28:02 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote
in <lkcba8ttqv36arqea...@4ax.com> Re Re: Installation
Cost of Nat Gas Generator?:

NJ is all union all the time, so $150 to $250 per hour in NJ.

If it was me, I would skip the xfer switch and just use extension
cords. You seldom get outages lasting more than an hour right?

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 15, 10:27 pm, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:22:56 -0500, Arnie Goetchius
>

> <arnie.goetch...@invalid.domain> wrote:
> >How much should I figure in my budget for installation of a natural gas
> >generator?
>
> $65 to $75 an hour around here.

I haven't hired an electrician here in NJ for a long time,
but that sounds low. The car stealerships now charge
$150 an hour for example. And it's impossible to give
a price, because it also depends on what they have to go
through to run the wiring, if there is something already
there to attach new gear to, etc. You also need a
plumber and the cost of permits. If I had to guess, I'd
bet you're looking at $1000 between the two. Plus
the cost of the generator, which is probably $2500 or
so.

Before laying out the $$$ for ANY Generac home product,
I'd suggest you go to Amazon, look up Generac products
and see what people are saying. Also take a look at
PisssedConsumer.com.

I have a 12KW Generac sitting here, probably gonna part it
out, largely after reading those reviews. This one was
given to a friend by a neighbor. It was about 5 years old
and failed during the hurricane a year ago. Service guy
told him the $3,000 unit was not worth fixing. The rotor is
shot, possibly more. Look on those
sites and you'll see a LOT of people with long, similar
stories. Including ones that were bad right out of the box,
or that were just 2 years old, went through the automatic
testing every week, then died in an hour during real use.

[bud--]

On 11/15/2012 6:33 PM, Arnie Goetchius wrote:

> Oren wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:22:56 -0500, Arnie Goetchius
>> <arnie.g...@invalid.domain> wrote:
>>
>>> How much should I figure in my budget for installation of a natural gas
>>> generator? I'm looking at a 6-7 KW generator to handle refrigerator,
>>> freezer, sump pump, gas furnace, computers, TV and some lights but not
>>> Air Conditioning. It looks like I need an electrician for installing a
>>> transfer box and outlet to the outside to connect to the generator and a
>>> plumber to hook up a gas line. Generator would be about 20 feet from the
>>> electric breaker box and the gas line.
>>>
>>> There are a number of companies here (Central NJ) that will do the whole
>>> job and wonder what a package price might be for everything that I
>>> described above?
>>>
>>> This may be a DIY for many people but DIY is not for me for this project.
>>>
>>> I would do this in the Spring after all of the work on Sandy repair is done.

If you don't want an automatic transfer switch, another way to do it is
to add a breaker in the existing service panel and add a mechanical
interlock on the panel cover that prevents both the generator breaker
and service breaker from being on at the same time. One interlock is:
http://www.interlockkit.com/CATALOG2008.pdf
Some panel manufacturers also make them.

>>
>> What you will pay in NJ is not the same as what it would cost in Two
>> Egg, Florida. It's a local thing. Check locally.
>>
>> I can guess what it would cost. $14.00
>>
> Do the transfer switches used by Generac accept aluminum wire?. My house
> was built in 1968 and the wiring to most of the circuit breakers is AL.
> Only new circuits added since the house was built are CU.
>

The wires will probably be spliced at the panel to wires that go to the
transfer switch.

The CPSC had extensive testing of aluminum connections done.
Recommendations from the supervising engineer are at:
http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/ReducingFire070706.pdf
This is probably more than your electrician knows.

[HeyBub]

I can understand why you would consider this a not-DIY project. You may be
overly complicating the basic requirement for a smidgen of electrical power.

What you COULD do is:
1. Get an ordinary portable generator of the appropriate capacity.
2. Get a NG adaptor for that normally gasoline-powered unit.
3. Tap into your existing gas line with a detachable hose to the generator.
4. Add an interlock switch and input junction to your existing breaker-box.

The only item that might generate an unconsionable cost is having a
certified, licensed, and unionized plumber to attach a suitable "T" and
valve for the NG connection.

As an even cheaper alternative is to score a pile of gas cans. When a storm
is imminent, get them ALL filled. For a local outage, say a car knocks down
a pole in the next block, one five-gallon can should be enough to get you
started; you can fill other cans, from a station two blocks, away while the
generator is working on the first.

[Arnie Goetchius]

I prefer this approach as it avoids the AL/CU issues and I don't need a
separate automatic transfer box. I checked and they make one for my box
- Square D QO 150 amp Load center. Has interlockkit been around long
enough that (1) most electricians will be familiar with it and (2) it
will be accepted by the local electrical code?

>
>>>
>>> What you will pay in NJ is not the same as what it would cost in Two
>>> Egg, Florida. It's a local thing. Check locally.
>>>
>>> I can guess what it would cost. $14.00
>>>
>> Do the transfer switches used by Generac accept aluminum wire?. My house
>> was built in 1968 and the wiring to most of the circuit breakers is AL.
>> Only new circuits added since the house was built are CU.
>>
>
> The wires will probably be spliced at the panel to wires that go to the
> transfer switch.
>
> The CPSC had extensive testing of aluminum connections done.
> Recommendations from the supervising engineer are at:
> http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/ReducingFire070706.pdf
> This is probably more than your electrician knows.
>
>

Thanks for the link. I had read Aronstein's stuff before but must have
skipped over the Alumniconn as it is the first time I had heard of it.

[Arnie Goetchius]

Sandy was 11 days, Irene was 4 days and the October 2011 snow storm was
3 days. I can live with an outage of a couple of hours and would not
install a generator for that.

[Arnie Goetchius]

Wow. Alot of people have had problems with Generac. I may need to
consider something else besides Generac. Perhaps Kohler or Briggs and
stratton. Or just forget a Gas Gen and go with a portable to power
refrigerator, freezer, TV and computer. Install gas logs in the fire
place for heat.

[Arnie Goetchius]

Yes, I am considering just going with a portable and a pile of gas cans
and plenty of Sta-Bil. Couple that with an interlockkit may be a
reasonable approach.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 16, 12:58 pm, Arnie Goetchius <arnie.goetch...@invalid.domain>
wrote:

> reasonable approach.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

A pile of gas cans is not a small problem. Even with stabilizer
added, it only lasts so long. How long depends
on how lucky you feel. So, you still have a bunch of gas
cans to manage. You can also siphon it out of your cars,
but that's no fun either. I'd probably go with a natural gas
portable. I've seen 5KW or so ones for $2,000 with a
Honda Engine. You could also get a conversion kit and
a gasoline generator and make one yourself for about
half that. Some kits allow use of 3 fuels and you can
switch back and forth between gasonline, propane, nat
gas. Overall, one of those approaches sound better
than a Generac standby to me.

Regarding Interlockit, folks on here have used them.
If you're planning on using one and having it inspected,
I'd check with the inspector. I've seen other discussion
threads where the issue of UL lisiting comes up.
Apparently they are not UL listed and some inspectors
might reject it. The other
solution would be to get a new cover panel from the
manufacturer with interlock attached, if available.

[CRNG]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:47:57 -0500, Arnie Goetchius
<arnie.g...@invalid.domain> wrote in <k85u8d$mut$2...@dont-email.me>

Re Re: Installation Cost of Nat Gas Generator?:

>CRNG wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 22:28:02 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote
>> in <lkcba8ttqv36arqea...@4ax.com> Re Re: Installation
>> Cost of Nat Gas Generator?:
>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 17:22:56 -0500, Arnie Goetchius
>>> <arnie.g...@invalid.domain> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How much should I figure in my budget for installation of a natural gas
>>>> generator?
>>>
>>> $65 to $75 an hour around here.
>>
>> NJ is all union all the time, so $150 to $250 per hour in NJ.
>>
>> If it was me, I would skip the xfer switch and just use extension
>> cords. You seldom get outages lasting more than an hour right?
>>
>Sandy was 11 days, Irene was 4 days and the October 2011 snow storm was
>3 days. I can live with an outage of a couple of hours and would not
>install a generator for that.

Ok, I didn't realize you got hit that bad/often (other than Sandy), so
you will need a xfer switch. I myself would still try to avoid the
built-in solution and go with a portable solution if possible. Built
in gets expensive.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per CRNG:

>Ok, I didn't realize you got hit that bad/often (other than Sandy), so
>you will need a xfer switch.

I was determined to forego the transfer switch because outages
were infrequent.

That lasted about three years. Now I'm sick of fooling around
with extension cords - usually in the dark in inclement weather.

Fee to install on the transfer switch is going to be about $250.

I kind of went nuts on the switch. Got one with automatic
load-shedding capability to help with my dinky little 2kw
gennie... so it's costing me about $350 from B&H Photo.

Bottom line looks like about $600.... assuming I continue to
forgo the outside plug...
--
Pete Cresswell

[CRNG]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:21:24 -0800 (PST), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote in
<294a8a5a-c43a-4dea...@c17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> Re

Re: Installation Cost of Nat Gas Generator?:

>A pile of gas cans is not a small problem. Even with stabilizer
>added, it only lasts so long. How long depends
>on how lucky you feel. So, you still have a bunch of gas
>cans to manage. You can also siphon it out of your cars,
>but that's no fun either. I'd probably go with a natural gas
>portable. I've seen 5KW or so ones for $2,000 with a
>Honda Engine. You could also get a conversion kit and
>a gasoline generator and make one yourself for about
>half that. Some kits allow use of 3 fuels and you can
>switch back and forth between gasonline, propane, nat
>gas. Overall, one of those approaches sound better
>than a Generac standby to me.

OP: just remember that when burning NG or propane in a gasoline
generator, that the generator will only produce about 80% of the rated
power because the NG/propane has about 20% less energy per unit volume
compared to gasoline.

[Han]

"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in
news:v98da8htnmfslgu8u...@4ax.com:

> I kind of went nuts on the switch. Got one with automatic
> load-shedding capability to help with my dinky little 2kw
> gennie... so it's costing me about $350 from B&H Photo.

Sounds like a great idea, which switch is that? What I found on B&H was an
APC switch that was more designed for computer backup it seemed

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

[HeyBub]

tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> A pile of gas cans is not a small problem. Even with stabilizer
> added, it only lasts so long. How long depends
> on how lucky you feel. So, you still have a bunch of gas
> cans to manage. You can also siphon it out of your cars,
> but that's no fun either. I'd probably go with a natural gas
> portable. I've seen 5KW or so ones for $2,000 with a
> Honda Engine. You could also get a conversion kit and
> a gasoline generator and make one yourself for about
> half that. Some kits allow use of 3 fuels and you can
> switch back and forth between gasonline, propane, nat
> gas. Overall, one of those approaches sound better
> than a Generac standby to me.

There's another strategy that mitigates the problem of managing gas cans.

Have ONE five-gallon can full of gas and ten or more empty ones.

If you have a local outage - say a pole gets knocked down - the five gallons
should provide enough slack such that you can fetch more from a station
outside the black-out zone.

If, on the other hand, wide-spread outage is possible, such as the warnings
over Sandy or a hurricane entering the Gulf, you'll have ample warning to
fill all the cans you have.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Han:

>Sounds like a great idea, which switch is that? What I found on B&H was an
>APC switch that was more designed for computer backup it seemed

This one: http://tinyurl.com/bmvg7tp

NB: it is 120v only. There's a sister product that does
240/120.

--
Pete Cresswell

[tra...@optonline.net]

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 16, 6:23 pm, Han <nob...@nospam.not> wrote:
> "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote innews:v98da8htnmfslgu8u...@4ax.com:

>
> > I kind of went nuts on the switch.  Got one with automatic
> > load-shedding capability to help with my dinky little 2kw
> > gennie... so it's costing me about $350 from B&H Photo.
>

It would seem to me to be a better strategy to spend
$75 on an interlock for the main panel and the other $275
on a bigger generator. Automatic load shedding and
a 2KW generator does not compute in my world

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per tra...@optonline.net:

>It would seem to me to be a better strategy to spend
>$75 on an interlock for the main panel and the other $275
>on a bigger generator. Automatic load shedding and
>a 2KW generator does not compute in my world

I got the small gennie with the idea of "Lifeboat" vs "Cruise
Ship": low gas consumption, easy to transport to somebody else
who might need it, and so-forth.

Experience so far indicates that 2kw is enough to get by on,
although that's without the furnace in the picture.

Push-comes-to-shove, I'll get a second 2k and parallel them.

But the automatic load shedding would seem to extend the range of
a small unit bc you can hang stuff on it that would otherwise
cause repeated breaker trips due to startup surges. With
automatic load shedding, my understanding is that whole circuits
are gracefully de-powered and then powered up again as capacity
permits.

Case in point would be refrigerators and freezers.

Supposedly the panel's load shedding can be prioritized. My hope
is that it can be set up so that when a refrigerator and or
freezer needs a startup surge that would be otherwise
unavailable, the panel can shut down, for instance, the circuit
servicing the computer room/LAN closet (both of which have their
own UPS) long enough for the refrigerator and/or freezer to get
started.

Just found out that B&H has me back-ordered on the panel, so all
this is speculation.

--
Pete Cresswell

[Han]

"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in
news:maoda8pkb0l14hagg...@4ax.com:

Thanks, Pete. That is the one I had found. Now to go and find the manual
... Then talk to my electrician friend.

[bud--]

1 Electricians can (I hope) RTFM

2 (from another recent thread) They are sorta listed
http://www.interlockkit.com/warranty01.htm
They have a sticker "Listed to UL 67 by [Wylie Labs logo]" Wylie is a
Nationally Recognized Testing Lab. Depends on whether your AHJ
recognizes Wylie, and what "listed to" means. This is a mechanical
device that does not have electrical ratings, so IMHO it should be OK.
Ask the AHJ.

>>
>>>>
>>>> What you will pay in NJ is not the same as what it would cost in Two
>>>> Egg, Florida. It's a local thing. Check locally.
>>>>
>>>> I can guess what it would cost. $14.00
>>>>
>>> Do the transfer switches used by Generac accept aluminum wire?. My house
>>> was built in 1968 and the wiring to most of the circuit breakers is AL.
>>> Only new circuits added since the house was built are CU.
>>>
>>
>> The wires will probably be spliced at the panel to wires that go to the
>> transfer switch.
>>
>> The CPSC had extensive testing of aluminum connections done.
>> Recommendations from the supervising engineer are at:
>> http://www.kinginnovation.com/pdfs/ReducingFire070706.pdf
>> This is probably more than your electrician knows.
>>
>>
> Thanks for the link. I had read Aronstein's stuff before but must have
> skipped over the Alumniconn as it is the first time I had heard of it.

Alumniconn is relatively recent.

[Han]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in
news:x9qdnfrGwep6RjvN...@earthlink.com:

That would be my thinking. FWIW, Sandy has shown that something needs to
be done to insure a supply of gasoline to gas stations, plus gas stations
will need to have generators ...

Hereabouts, the story is that someone came to his regular gas station,
and asked for gas. Gas station guy said I have gas, but no power.
Customer says, I'll loan you my generators, be right back. Result: Long
lines at that gas station.

[Arnie Goetchius]

In my town, the town provided generators to a couple of local gas
stations. The station I go to said the generator caused the computer to
shut down and he could only pump gas while the computer was working. I
suspect that if he had a UPS and had the generator charging the UPS, he
would have been OK.

[George]

Its a common problem. I lot of generators (built for big box price
point) put out really poor quality power. Unfortunately a UPS will only
help to a certain extent. I have seen cases where a UPS won't even go
back to line mode because the power from the generator is so bad.

[Han]

Arnie Goetchius <arnie.g...@invalid.domain> wrote in

news:k889c8$vo9$1...@dont-email.me:

For some reason they only accepted cash ...
Usually gas is cheaper in NJ than it is in NY, especially on the Thruway.
When I went to Kingston NY, ~1 week after Sandy, gas was cheaper there
than by us ... Go figure <grin>.

[missin...@brainchampagne.com]

I'd bet this problem gets solved in the next few months as more gas stations go out and buy generators.

[George]

Have you considered that processing credit or debit cards at a typical
gas station POS system requires an Internet connection?

> Usually gas is cheaper in NJ than it is in NY, especially on the Thruway.
> When I went to Kingston NY, ~1 week after Sandy, gas was cheaper there
> than by us ... Go figure <grin>.
>

NY tax is $0.696/gal vs NJ $0.329/gal

[missin...@brainchampagne.com]

Where I am (NY area) Verizon internet worked after the storm but not cable co. internet.

Anyway, if they can't process credit/debit cards there's always cash. And some small businesses (me included) can process credit cards on a smartphone.

[The Daring Dufas]

Many of them use a satellite link. Next time you go by a gas station
look for a satellite dish on the roof, it may not be for TV. I know
this because I service and install POS systems in a lot of businesses
which have a satellite link for primary or backup data communications
with their corporate office. ^_^

TDD

[Peter Bogiatzidis]

"Arnie Goetchius" <arnie.g...@invalid.domain> wrote in message
news:k83pv1$k12$1...@dont-email.me...

> How much should I figure in my budget for installation of a natural gas
> generator? I'm looking at a 6-7 KW generator to handle refrigerator,
> freezer, sump pump, gas furnace, computers, TV and some lights but not
> Air Conditioning. It looks like I need an electrician for installing a
> transfer box and outlet to the outside to connect to the generator and a
> plumber to hook up a gas line. Generator would be about 20 feet from the
> electric breaker box and the gas line.
>
> There are a number of companies here (Central NJ) that will do the whole
> job and wonder what a package price might be for everything that I
> described above?
>
> This may be a DIY for many people but DIY is not for me for this project.
>
> I would do this in the Spring after all of the work on Sandy repair is
> done.
>

Arnie,

Perhaps something like this might suit your needs. No affiliation, etc.,
just one that a friend of mine had mentioned to me for my prospective future
needs.

http://www.generac.com/Residential/CorePowerSeries/7kW/

I realize that others here have stated their concerns about Generac,
however, at a price of around $1800 or so, not including installation, plus
the fact that it can use either natural or LP gas, it might be worth a look.
It also includes a transfer switch. The only negative thing that I've read
about this particular model is that the engine is noisy. So, for probably a
total cost of about $3000 (I'm guessing at the cost of the gas line &
transfer switch installation), you'd have a system that could run the basic
household necessities, such as the refrigerator, the furnace, the coffee
maker, and so on, depending upon your priorities.

In the aftermath of Sandy, while being without power for just shy of a week,
I used a portable 5000W gasoline fueled generator with extension cords to
power a refrigerator, a natural gas furnace, a clock radio with a built-in
light, a coffee maker, and a corded fluorescent drop light. This was only
for the last several days of the power outage. The gas situation wasn't too
bad as I had planned ahead and bought gas in order to use the generator at a
different location. Overall, it wasn't too bad of an experience, but I had
to be there for it to happen. It wasn't a user friendly experience that
you'd have your spouse or child perform. That's why I started looking into
one that should be expected to perform "automatically" on its own. Had this
location been prepared for use of a generator in advance, it might have been
easier, but there's still the gasoline issue to be addressed.

With regard to fuel, there would have to be a major disaster to interrupt
the natural gas supply, so this type of generator should eliminate the need
for carting gas cans back and forth to a gas station, whose supply may be
cut off due to the power outage.

The bottom line being that it's better to have something, regardless of its
type, rather than nothing at all.

Hope this helps.

Peter

[Arnie Goetchius]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. That is about what I'm looking for. I
am bothered by the poor reviews for the Generac and I probably look at
other models. There are at least 3 houses near me that have nat gas
generators so will be talking to them to see what they are running.

A fireplace guy said he would install gas logs (vented/non-vented combo)
for $1300). That would give me heat and smaller generator would be used
to supply the other stuff you mentioned. No decisions yet. Just mulling
different possibilities.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 17, 4:43 pm, Arnie Goetchius <arnie.goetch...@invalid.domain>
wrote:
> Peter Bogiatzidis wrote:
> > "Arnie Goetchius" <arnie.goetch...@invalid.domain> wrote in message

> different possibilities.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

With a generator, why on earth would you want to rely on gas logs
for heat? A typical furnace doesn't take very much power to run.
I ran two houses with two gas furnaces plus 4 refrigerators/freezers
on a 4500 watt one.

[Han]

"tra...@optonline.net" <tra...@optonline.net> wrote in
news:798c9d20-8019-45b1...@c17g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

That would be my question as well. Especially since my gas-fired
circulating hot water heating system did work with just a puny 150 Watt
inverter ($24.95 at Amazon) in my car (2005 Caravan).

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Arnie Goetchius:

>installation of a natural gas

>generator...

Nobody had mentioned this yet: gas pressure.

I don't know the first thing... but in other threads I've read
gas pressure has come up.

From context, I'm guessing that a generator needs a certain
minimum gas pressure to function and that might be higher than
what is coming in on the gas utility's line.

May turn out tb FUD, but it seems worth investigating
--
Pete Cresswell

[Arnie Goetchius]

Well, I just thought I would throw it out. Looks like nobody likes it ;-)

[Han]

Arnie Goetchius <arnie.g...@invalid.domain> wrote in news:k8974a$kev$1
@dont-email.me:

> Well, I just thought I would throw it out. Looks like nobody likes it ;-)

It's your house and your money. If you want a nice easy fireplace, go for
it!

[gregz]

You can buy a self standing type of gas vent free heater. I forget if it
has logs, but who cares. All it costs is gas line.

Greg

[HeyBub]

Warning: Conjecture follows:

I think the pressure is constant throughout the system*, it's the volume of
gas that can be delivered that's the issue. Obviously a 1" gas line can
deliver more natural gas than a 1/2" line. So, then, when installing the
piping, go for as large a diameter pipe as you can.

----------
* Unless the generator is putting the big suck on the supply. Even then, I
suspect the regulator on the meter will throttle down the flow.

[tra...@optonline.net]

Yes, a natural gas generator is no different than any
other gas appliance in that regard. Works using the same
pressure, you just need to size the piping correctly.
The 12KW one I'm screwing around with has a 1" gas
fitting and runs around 240,000 BTUs at full tilt, about
half that at half power.

BTW, I have a nice 26hp nat gas engine, low hours,
from that generator, if anyone is interested.
Not sure it makes sense to fix
the generator section, given what I've seen of all
the bad reviews of Generac online. Probably going
to part it out.

[Smarty]

Arnie,

I installed a Generac 7KW unit myself 5 years ago after a very prolonged
10 day outage. I also assisted several other people with selection and
installation of Generac units ranging in size from 7 to 16KW, all
powered by natural gas. In some cases, commercial installations were
done. In others it was, like mine DIY.

The total labor involved in about 10 hours give or take. The electrical
is maybe 2 or 3 hours to install the transfer switch, move the circuits,
and run the connection between the indoor transfer switch and the
outdoor generator. The gas line is another 2 to 3 hours, possibly a lot
longer, to tap off the gas main, run the line to where it is needed,
pressure test, etc. Physically installing the generator with ground
rod(s), slab, is another hour or two. Some of the work requires two people.

Generac has a DIY DVD video which shows all the steps. It is very
straight forward.

The big surprises may come if you have too little gas delivery in your
current setup, requiring your gas meter to be increased in capacity.
Even the 7KW size needs a lot of BTU/hr. I forget the specifics but I am
guessing at least 120,000 BTU/hr. Obviously the larger generators need
proportionately more.

I share your concern about the Generac models reliability, although mine
starts faithfully every week for its weekly exercise. I have never
needed to really use it for an extended period of time so I can't
comment on its performance under long term load.

Installation labor costs here in the immediate period after the freak
ice storm in 2007 were insane and Generacs were also in short supply
locally. I ordered mine from Amazon, avoided the sales tax, installed it
myself, and had a total cost of $1600 for the generator, $250 or so for
parts, and a couple days of work putting it in. My friends and neighbors
spent as much as $5K for the same unit installed owing to the local
scarcity.

Hope this is useful info.

Smarty

[George]

That used to be the popular way to do it in my general area. As Internet
availability became more common they just connect a datawire gateway box
from the POS to the network.

[The Daring Dufas]

A lot of the retailers I've been servicing are switching to DSL as their
primary data link and using the Hughes Satellite as a backup.
Some are doing away with the satellite link and going T1 or DSL as
the primary data link and a unit manufactured by Feeney Wireless
using the 3G cellphone network as the backup. A few locations are
even using cable modems for data communications. The data speed is
much greater with the 3G modems than the satellite links and perhaps
the retailers are getting a better deal on price compared to what they
have been paying Hughes. I'm waiting for the neutrino based or quantum
particle based instantaneous communication modems in the near future. ^_^

TDD

[The Daring Dufas]

Back when I was installing Generac systems, I would get the gas company
to provide a 2 psi meter at the customer location in place of
the existing 6-8" WC(Water Column)meter. The higher pressure allowed for
a line as small as 1/2 copper run to the genset and attached to a
secondary regulator adjusted for an output of 11" WC pressure. The
generator has a demand regulator inside that will only flow when there
is manifold vacuum. Of course, at the meter, a regulator set for the
standard 6-8" WC pressure fed the rest of the home. ^_^

TDD

[Arnie Goetchius]

Thanks for the response. Around here people are quoting about $1K per 1K
of power or $7000 for a 7K unit. 20-30 years ago I would have done it
myself. Having recently become an octogenarian, it is not something I
can physically deal with. Best I can do is learn everything I can before
I start negotiating a deal.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 18, 11:40 am, Arnie Goetchius <arnie.goetch...@invalid.domain>
wrote:
> Smarty wrote:

> I start negotiating a deal.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Unless you're getting a real high quality generator, eg one
that runs at 1800 rpm, is quiet, reliable, etc, that price is nuts.
You can buy a Generac 12KW for $3000, transer panel included.
I've seen similar in Costco for $2500.
And sadly that level of product seems to be junk, but it's
typical of the prices for the eqpt for home systems. Even if
install is $1000, that would still be around $4,000, not $12,000.
If you're in the Sandy area, I would NOT be buying anything
even remotely related to hurricane right now. Everyone
is getting top dollar, even the honest guys. And there are
lots of shysters running around. With the internet it's easy
today to find the prices on the eqpt.

[Arnie Goetchius]

tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Nov 18, 11:40 am, Arnie Goetchius <arnie.goetch...@invalid.domain>
> wrote:
>> Smarty wrote:

==snipped==

>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Unless you're getting a real high quality generator, eg one
> that runs at 1800 rpm, is quiet, reliable, etc, that price is nuts.
> You can buy a Generac 12KW for $3000, transer panel included.
> I've seen similar in Costco for $2500.
> And sadly that level of product seems to be junk, but it's
> typical of the prices for the eqpt for home systems. Even if
> install is $1000, that would still be around $4,000, not $12,000.
> If you're in the Sandy area, I would NOT be buying anything
> even remotely related to hurricane right now. Everyone
> is getting top dollar, even the honest guys. And there are
> lots of shysters running around. With the internet it's easy
> today to find the prices on the eqpt.
>

Will definitely wait until all the Sandy stuff slows down in NJ. Will
shoot for April-June. Thanks for your input.

[Stormin Mormon]

Age catches up with people who are lucky to
live so long. I'm feeling it today, yesterday helped
some friends move house.

Best wishes on your generator install. I wish you
great quality, skilled install, and never need the thing.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Arnie Goetchius" <arnie.g...@invalid.domain>
wrote in message news:k8b315$u32$1...@dont-email.me...

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Nov 18, 2:59 pm, Arnie Goetchius <arnie.goetch...@invalid.domain>
wrote:

> shoot for April-June. Thanks for your input.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Was just looking at Costco website. They have a Cummins/Onan
nat gas, whole house, automatic standby for $5,800, 17KW.
At least it's not Generac. Other than that, I don't know how good
it is or isn't. Looks like it includes the transfer switch and that
you can wire it in ahead of the main panel, instead of using a
sub panel, which I like. It also has an LCD information display
that you can remote mount inside the house. Looks like it's
internet capable. So, even if the rest of it burns up like Generac,
I guess you might still be able to play with that part LOL

Cummins/Onan may have smaller units too. If I were
buying one, I'd look into it.

[Arnie Goetchius]

Sounds good. I'll check it out. Thanks for providing that information

[The Daring Dufas]

I would look for a good used Onan 15kw with the air cooled four that
reminds me of a light aircraft engine. I installed a half dozen of the
things years ago and those old air cooled engines were fairly
bulletproof. I rarely had a problem with any of them and all of them I
installed were used. They had been removed from grocery stores and were
sold by a salvage company that specialized in salvaging grocery stores
and restaurants. All of the gensets ran on natural gas and could be
wired to deliver single or three phase power. I found a picture of one
and my faulty memory kept telling me it was a flat four but that was
because the air cooled engine reminded me of a light aircraft engine
in its stoutness. ^_^

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/15KW-Onan-Standby-Generator-Gaseoline-Propane-N-Gas-120-240-Quiet-No-Reserve-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$T2eC16ZHJIQE9qUHuEBuBQpZZV7W2w~~60_57.JPG

http://tinyurl.com/a6gvosq

TDD