Oil vs Propane Heat Am I Missing Something?
Harry Seamen
application, but the operational economics just don't work out.
Propane has 92K BTUs per gallon and in a good furnace burns at 94%
efficiency, it sells for $1.20 to $1.38 per gallon. Oil has 142K BTUs per
gallon and in a good furnace it burns at 82% efficiency and sells at .97
per gallon. Simple
math tells one that oil is 40% to 50% cheaper per BTU output from their
respective furnaces. So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
I would be interested in comments on this and any comments in general on
oil fired forced air furnaces. Has anyone had any reliablility problems
with high
efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air furnaces?
Harry sea...@mnsinc.com
John Mills
>respective furnaces. So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
>I would be interested in comments on this and any comments in general
on
>oil fired forced air furnaces. Has anyone had any reliablility
problems
>with high
>efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air furnaces?
Oil is a lot cheaper to heat with in most cases. But since oil can have
some odor and needs to be thoroughly annually, people shy away from it.
But a good oil furnace can be a reliable, cheap form of heat. Not that
many techs know how to work on it so they may be a source of negative
information. Also, people don't stop to analyze just how expensive
propane can be.
Going oil, I'd get one from a premium supplier like Williamson,
Thermopride or Bard. These are better built units than the names you'll
recognize. You'll get 80-80% efficiency and long life from them. Propane
is just a standard gas furnace coverted over. If one gets out of
adjustment, look out. You can get a propane furnace sooted up worse than
oil.
kelusman
>Most everyone I talk to recommends Propane over Oil for a forced air residential
>application, but the operational economics just don't work out.
>Propane has 92K BTUs per gallon and in a good furnace burns at 94%
>efficiency, it sells for $1.20 to $1.38 per gallon. Oil has 142K BTUs per
>gallon and in a good furnace it burns at 82% efficiency and sells at .97
>per gallon. Simple
>math tells one that oil is 40% to 50% cheaper per BTU output from their
>respective furnaces. So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
>I would be interested in comments on this and any comments in general on
>oil fired forced air furnaces. Has anyone had any reliablility problems
>with high
>efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air furnaces?
>Harry sea...@mnsinc.com
i install furnaces--i would recommend gas (lp or natural) over any
other type of heat. it is warm, relatively inexpensive, and, here is
the big plus, it is clean. oil is dirty, if you have a tank in the
yard that leaks, you can now be in serious trouble with the epa.
also, having the gas line in your house will allow you other
options--gas water heater, stove, dryer, etc.
Andrew Duane USG/PE
>Most everyone I talk to recommends Propane over Oil for a forced air residential
>application, but the operational economics just don't work out.
>Propane has 92K BTUs per gallon and in a good furnace burns at 94%
>efficiency, it sells for $1.20 to $1.38 per gallon. Oil has 142K BTUs per
>gallon and in a good furnace it burns at 82% efficiency and sells at .97
>per gallon. Simple
>math tells one that oil is 40% to 50% cheaper per BTU output from their
>respective furnaces. So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
>I would be interested in comments on this and any comments in general on
>oil fired forced air furnaces. Has anyone had any reliablility problems
>with high >efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air furnaces?
There are several other factors to consider in deciding between gas and
oil. I went through this all about four years ago (and decided on gas).
First, the simple computation of $/BTU delivered doesn't tell it all.
Propane is fairly stable in price, whereas oil fluctuates wildly (sometimes
by 25% in a week or two). Off-season, I have seen oil for 79 cents. Peak
season, or when a cold snap hits, it can be $1.50 or more.
Next, don't forget service. Oil burners need annual maintenance, cleaning,
and adjusting. This can easily be $100. Malfunctioning oil burners
plummet in efficiency, and can be dangerous (CO, fires, oil spills).
My propane furnace hasn't needed a lick of service in four years. This
summer, I think I'll vaccuum out a small amount of debris. That's it.
Also, the price of the furnaces may vary. The high-efficiency oil burners
are relatively new and expensive; you pay dearly for that last 10%.
Oil forced air is also no very common; I wanted forced air so I could
put in A/C, too.
Lastly, there is the fuel storage. This was the absolute clincher for me
because of where I live. Oil needs to be stored inside the house, or
underground, so it doesn't freeze. No one will touch underground tanks
anymore (rightly so), so inside it is; usually in the garage. I don't
have room for tanks in my garage, and I don't want the stink of oil
in the house anyway. It does stink. A little spill (1 ounce) can stink
up a garage for weeks. Also, most oil tanks are 200-250 gallons, and
need to be refilled often. Given my driveway, and the amount of snow
we get, getting an oil truck in to refill in february is out of the
question. On the other hand, I have an outdoor 500 gallon propane tank,
which will last me most of the winter. I can wait until the driveway
is clear and refill at my leisure. The tank is landscaped around and
not a big problem.
Oh, and when Natural gas comes to my neighborhood (they're wiring the
town now), I'll connect and my cost will go down about 10-20%.
--
Andrew L. Duane (JOT-7) du...@zk3.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation (603)-881-1294
110 Spit Brook Road http://www.zk3.dec.com/~duane
M/S ZKO3-3/U14
Nashua, NH 03062-2698
Only my cat shares my opinions, and she can't fit into the ductwork.
Doug Vensel
>sea...@mnsinc.com (Harry Seamen) wrote:
>>Most everyone I talk to recommends Propane over Oil for a forced air residential
>>application, but the operational economics just don't work out.
>>Propane has 92K BTUs per gallon and in a good furnace burns at 94%
>>efficiency, it sells for $1.20 to $1.38 per gallon. Oil has 142K BTUs per
>>gallon and in a good furnace it burns at 82% efficiency and sells at .97
>>per gallon. Simple
>>math tells one that oil is 40% to 50% cheaper per BTU output from their
>>respective furnaces. So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
>>I would be interested in comments on this and any comments in general on
>>oil fired forced air furnaces. Has anyone had any reliablility problems
>>with high
>>efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air furnaces?
>>Harry sea...@mnsinc.com
>i install furnaces--i would recommend gas (lp or natural) over any
>other type of heat. it is warm, relatively inexpensive, and, here is
>the big plus, it is clean. oil is dirty, if you have a tank in the
>yard that leaks, you can now be in serious trouble with the epa.
>also, having the gas line in your house will allow you other
>options--gas water heater, stove, dryer, etc.
It seems obvious to me that the above person also sells propane.
Anyone that would advocate the use of a fuel that requires more of it
to achieve the same output on BTU's isn't thinking in terms of
economics. I install furnaces, boilers, heat exchangers and so on. I
also work in a heating plant for the State of NY that burns oil. My
experience goes back 22 years in this field and I can say conclusively
that for one to burn gas over oil, they must have the money to do it.
Propane is simply too expensive to use as a heating fuel. Oil burners
are upwards of 87% eff. now and the gas burners can be just a dirty to
use is not properly attended to. Further, gas is ultimately more
dangerous. Especially propane because it's heavier than air and tends
to stay in the cellar where as natural gas is lilghter. An
accumulation of gas in one's cellar can make for some very hefty fire
works should it become ignited by anything. Yes....oil can be
messier. But it's a lot more controlable and is much cheaper to use
than gas. BTW, up here where I live, gas is up to about $2.00/gallon
and oil is only $.85/gallon. That puts gas at about the same price as
using electricity to heat anything with. Our power is 10.8 cents per
KWH and gas is right there with it.
Forget the gas and go with oil. And get a good oil fired water
heater. They're a lot cheaper to run than anything short of wood
fired.
Mark Kepke
Duane USG/PE) wrote:
> In article <seamen-0904...@seamen.mnsinc.com> sea...@mnsinc.com
(Harry Seamen) writes:
> >Most everyone I talk to recommends Propane over Oil for a forced air
residential
> >application, but the operational economics just don't work out.
> >Propane has 92K BTUs per gallon and in a good furnace burns at 94%
> >efficiency, it sells for $1.20 to $1.38 per gallon. Oil has 142K BTUs per
> >gallon and in a good furnace it burns at 82% efficiency and sells at .97
> >per gallon. Simple
> >math tells one that oil is 40% to 50% cheaper per BTU output from their
> >respective furnaces. So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
> >I would be interested in comments on this and any comments in general on
> >oil fired forced air furnaces. Has anyone had any reliablility problems
> >with high >efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air furnaces?
>
> There are several other factors to consider in deciding between gas and
> oil. I went through this all about four years ago (and decided on gas).
>
<stuff about oil price flucuation and oil burnerr maintenance costs snipped>
> Also, the price of the furnaces may vary. The high-efficiency oil burners
> are relatively new and expensive; you pay dearly for that last 10%.
> Oil forced air is also no very common; I wanted forced air so I could
> put in A/C, too.
Forced air gas furnaces are also held to be more expensive, more parts to
buy, more things to go wrong. I don't think I've ever seen a post '70 oil
burner that didn't have a blower (forced air).
In this part of the country (Ottawa) folks either have forced air natural
gas or oil. Propane is normally only seen on barbeques - don't know why.
> Lastly, there is the fuel storage. This was the absolute clincher for me
> because of where I live. Oil needs to be stored inside the house, or
> underground, so it doesn't freeze.
In fact, oil does not need to be stored in either of these
configurations. Yes, oil does need to be protected from freezing, however
"winter fuel oil" exists for this purpose. My parents have had their oil
tank outside their house in the Yukon (-35 Celcius avg. Jan/Feb temps) for
the last 15 years. The thinner oil plus the fact that the tank sits next
to the house prevents freezing.
I thought propane had problems coping with the cold owing to its
liquification temp.
--
-Mark
My opinions, etc.
John Mills
cleaning,
>and adjusting. This can easily be $100. Malfunctioning oil burners
>plummet in efficiency, and can be dangerous (CO, fires, oil spills).
>My propane furnace hasn't needed a lick of service in four years. This
>summer, I think I'll vaccuum out a small amount of debris. That's it.
You're lucky. We gave a $600 bill to a homeowner with a 4 year old LP
furnace. Seems the burners were out of adjustment and the think sooted up
and plugged the heat exchanger. This was a 90%, the only way to be
competitive with LP, and it took our best man hours to WASH out the soot
from the secondary heat exchanger. Then we had to replace the burners &
the ignition module. LP is tricky. Not perfectly adjusted and you have a
nightmare on your hands.
>Also, the price of the furnaces may vary. The high-efficiency oil
burners
>are relatively new and expensive; you pay dearly for that last 10%.
>Oil forced air is also no very common; I wanted forced air so I could
>put in A/C, too.
I can buy a Williamson Centennial 85% oil furnace (a super oil forced air
furnace) for less than a good (not a Janitrol) 90% LP furnace. The
Williamson heat exchanger is built like a tank. The LP furnace will have
an thin aluminized steel (most of them) that will be rusted out in under
1/2 the time of the Williamson oil furnace. Yes, I wouldn't want a 90%
condensing oil furnace so do agree there. But with a good flame retention
burner properly set up, there will be minimal maintenance. Oil forced air
is also no(?) very common? EVERYONE sells them. Many are not made by the
name on the furnace but you sure can get them and I would guess that most
or all these days have blowers & relays ready for A/C.
Will Flor
>put in A/C, too.
>
In this area (Milwaukee) most houses have oil heat, and every one I've
seen (including my own) is forced air, so it seems to be more common
than you think.
>
>Only my cat shares my opinions, and she can't fit into the ductwork.
My cat certainly doesn't share any opinions of mine, unless my opinion
is to pet her or play with her.
-Will Flor wi...@rrgroup.com
boo...@netcom.com
>du...@magma.zk3.dec.com (Andrew Duane USG/PE) wrote:
>>Oil forced air is also no very common; I wanted forced air so I could
>>put in A/C, too.
>
>In this area (Milwaukee) most houses have oil heat, and every one I've
>seen (including my own) is forced air, so it seems to be more common
>than you think.
And here, in the SF Bay Area, if one's not on natural gas,
common is propane. Actually, I don't know anyone who has
oil heat, so perhaps it's mostly in the colder climates...?
--
boo...@netcom.com Memory believes before knowing remembers
- Faulkner
boo...@netcom.com
>
>You're lucky. We gave a $600 bill to a homeowner with a 4 year old LP
>furnace. Seems the burners were out of adjustment and the think sooted up
>and plugged the heat exchanger. This was a 90%, the only way to be
>competitive with LP, and it took our best man hours to WASH out the soot
>from the secondary heat exchanger. Then we had to replace the burners &
>the ignition module. LP is tricky. Not perfectly adjusted and you have a
>nightmare on your hands.
Okay, I'll ask again here what I asked in another thread. I've
an LP furnace, 50's vintage, that hums without takin' a breath.
Another poster said LP furnaces need maintenance every 3 years
or so, hence my question. Apart from changing the filter
regularly and oiling the fan/blower annually, what sort of maintenace
should I be doing?
boomer, eager not to remain furnace-ignorant
Bill Burdick
>John Mills <BKB...@prodigy.com> wrote:
>>
>>You're lucky. We gave a $600 bill to a homeowner with a 4 year old LP
>>furnace. Seems the burners were out of adjustment and the think sooted up
>>and plugged the heat exchanger. This was a 90%, the only way to be
>>competitive with LP, and it took our best man hours to WASH out the soot
>>from the secondary heat exchanger. Then we had to replace the burners &
>>the ignition module. LP is tricky. Not perfectly adjusted and you have a
>>nightmare on your hands.
>Okay, I'll ask again here what I asked in another thread. I've
>an LP furnace, 50's vintage, that hums without takin' a breath.
>Another poster said LP furnaces need maintenance every 3 years
>or so, hence my question. Apart from changing the filter
>regularly and oiling the fan/blower annually, what sort of maintenace
>should I be doing?
>
Other than what you mentioned...
If you have ribbon burners, remove them and brush off dust, dirt,
debris; then replace.
Check for smooth ignition, mostly blue flame, lack of soot (there
should be virtually NO soot in a gas furnace; maybe some burnt dust,
that's all).
Check draft diverter and vent (flue) for good draft and lack of
obstructions.
Sniff around for propane leaks.
The manufacturers would probably recommend that all of this be done
annually, but most homeowners treat their gas furnaces with a spirit
of benign neglect. IMHO, "3 years" is a reasonable compromise. Oil
furnaces really do need _annual_ service because they go out of
adjustment and soot up, have ignition problems, etc.
Usually, very little goes wrong with the combustion side of an 80%
efficiency gas furnace, but when something does, as the post above
pointed out, you can wind up with a major mess.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"In Vino Jubilas" Bill Burdick
bb...@voicenet.com
Mork
> >application, but the operational economics just don't work out.
> >Propane has 92K BTUs per gallon and in a good furnace burns at 94%
> >efficiency, it sells for $1.20 to $1.38 per gallon. Oil has 142K BTUs per
> >gallon and in a good furnace it burns at 82% efficiency and sells at .97
> >per gallon. Simple
> >math tells one that oil is 40% to 50% cheaper per BTU output from their
> >respective furnaces. So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
> >I would be interested in comments on this and any comments in general on
> >oil fired forced air furnaces. Has anyone had any reliablility problems
> >with high
> >efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air furnaces?
>
> i install furnaces--i would recommend gas (lp or natural) over any
> other type of heat. it is warm, relatively inexpensive, and, here is
> the big plus, it is clean. oil is dirty, if you have a tank in the
> yard that leaks, you can now be in serious trouble with the epa.
> also, having the gas line in your house will allow you other
> options--gas water heater, stove, dryer, etc.
I deliver LPG and assist in installs. Another factor to consider is the length of time you
plan on staying in thhat home. A very high efficiency furnace (92+%) runs several hundred
dollars more than a "high efficiency" (80-90%). Therefore the payback on the expensive furn.
is several years longer than the 80-90% eff. furn. 2 years ago I switched my home (2,200 Sq.
Ft. 1 story w/ finished basement) from baseboard electric to an 85% eff. LPG forced air furn.
I have several customers with houses like mine w/ the 90+ eff. furn. The $$ savings this
winter to them was less than $50! If you're planning to sell the home in the next 2-6 years
you may consider contacting a realestate broker in your area to find out if the extra eff.
will be a good selling point.
Tim Morkemo
wyo...@vcn.com
Ed Burkett
All the statements above are highly reliable. If I understood the
original poster's question, he wants to know why so many people are
recommending propane when the economics of oil are so much more
favorable. While each person has his/her own way of evaluating such a
decision, many make the choice for propane based upon the ecological
impact of oil vs. propane. In this context, propane is far superior
to oil. For many, economics is not the only consideration. In fact,
I know some who would choose propane over oil, without regard for the
economics at all. Simply put, propane is the ecologically sound
alternative when the only other viable choice is oil. I hope this
helps to broaden the decision for you.
Best Regards
Ed
JBa...@gnn.com
Subject: Re: Oil vs Propane Heat Am I Missing Something?
>Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 16:46:09 -0500
>From: sea...@mnsinc.com (Harry Seamen)
>Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
>Subject: Oil vs Propane Heat Am I Missing Something?
>
>So why does everyone say go "Propane"?
>Has anyone had any reliablility problems
>with high efficiency oil or gas (Propane) fired forced air
>furnaces?
>Harry sea...@mnsinc.com
Oil furnaces tend to need more service than propane units. An oil
furnace should be cleaned annually as soot may build up and reduce
heat transfer, whereas propane has a clean burn and does not need
annual maintenance. Another advantage that propane has over oil is
the number of uses such as heating, hot water, cooking, clothes
drying, lights, barbeque and there are even propane toilets!
Although oil tends to be less expensive, propane can be purchased
cost effectively when you own the tank. I have some strategies
that I can share with you to purchase either oil or propane at
reasonable prices. e-mail jba...@aol.com