What color laser printer is easily & cheaply refilled at home from non OEM toner?

[J.G.]

Q: What color laser printer can cheaply be refilled with non-OEM toner?

For years, I bought the Costco HP inkjets which required ink priced at
about 100 times what ink 'should' cost. I even tried the Costco $20 ink
refills, but of course, HP makes refills almost impossible, on purpose,
so I simply vowed to never buy another HP ink-based printer.

I bought an HP B&W laser printer, and have happily and successfully been
buying $5 guaranteed-used-once C92 cartridges and refilling the C4092A
black toner over the years at home, for about $5 for 250 grams of toner
as shown below (after melting a circular hole in the toner cartridge):
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/9007348/img/9007348.jpeg

The problem is my kid wants a color printer and the wife concurs.

I never again wish to go through the expensive ink-refill sheer hell of
the typical HP inkjet ... so the 'only' color printer for me is one which
I can easily and inexpensively refill, at home, from non-OEM sources.

Hence my question:

Q: Do you know of a color laser printer that can be as easily refilled
from non-OEM sources like the B&W laserjets can?

[Frank]

I feel the same way about HP but have three of their printers.

I've been buying cartridges from Double Inks:

http://www.doubleinks.com/

Re-inked cartridges for way less the cost of HP originals.
I just put one of their re-inked color cartridges in one of my printers
and the color was true to the original photo I printed.

Looking at my order:

Products
------------------------------------------------------
1 x Single Pack HP 23 Reman C1823A (1 Tri-CLR) () = $18.99
1 x Double Pack HP 97 Reman C9363WN (2 Tri-CLR) () = $23.99
1 x Double Pack HP 15 Reman C6615DN (2 BLK) () = $17.99
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: $60.97
Shipping: $0.00
Total: $60.97

[Oren]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 19:39:14 -0400, Frank
<frankperi...@comcast.net> wrote:

>I feel the same way about HP but have three of their printers.

I bought a Kodak printer and sold the HP Office AIO in a yard sale.

Much cheaper for cartridges by a long shot. They can be refilled but I
don't bother. My bride gets a rebate of about $3. for each empty.

Even if you refill the cartridge in HP they will error with a time
stamp -- there is a trick / hack to get around the limitation on them
with a time / date stamp. I don't bother anymore.

The Kodak printer head went bad after a few years. Even after the
warranty expired they sent me a free print head... call India :-\

I suggest looking at a Kodak AIO printer / fax / photo printer.

Pick your poison...
--

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
As far as color ink jet goe, HP will be the last one to touch. I am
happy with Canon and Brother is OK too. All ink jet, laser printers in
my family is Canon.

[Smitty Two]

In article <k0p5ij$tgn$2...@speranza.aioe.org>,

FWIW, printing on a laser printer is MUCH less expensive, per page, than
an inkjet, when buying the OEM supplies.

[mike]

I did this as a thought experiment. With a family, you'll have to do it
for real.
Estimate the cost of a color print.
That's not the cost calculated by the 5% fill numbers of equal amounts
of toner.
Use the 100% fill of one color that your kids want to use for their
poster. If the toners don't come separate, count on throwing out 2/3 of
it. Don't forget the paper cost.
Now, you've got a number.
Put a coin jar next to the printer and make everybody put money in the
jar for every print they make with the current printer.
You're gonna need a big jar.

After a month, see how badly they want that color printer.
While you're at it, ask why they needed all those B&W prints.

If you want to print photos, you've got another problem.
A laser that prints nice photos is gonna cost you.
My neighbor has a very nice HP ink jet that prints
stunning pictures.
He figures that, given all the ink he throws out for plugged cartridges,
that it's costing him about $5/picture.
The photo shop inside the Walgreens around the corner will make a nice
print for 15-cents if you catch them in a sale.

I have three color printers. I haven't made a color print in 15 years.
Color is over-rated if you're not in the advertising business.

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:56:13 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Even if you refill the cartridge in HP they will error with a time stamp
> -- there is a trick / hack to get around the limitation on them with a
> time / date stamp. I don't bother anymore.

I know. I know. In fact, I had bought two sets of HP inkjet ink tanks,
and, I put one set aside as an emergency spare - and I was using and
refilling the first set - and then, at some much later date, I put the
brand new (but a couple of years old by now) spares in to start the
process anew ... and guess what? These never used cartridges ran out of
time in just a month or three. (I don't remember the exact details but I
was fuming that HP was so sinister.) I vowed never to buy another HP
inkjet all-in-one printer for the rest of my life (just like I've vowed
never to buy American or German cars ever again!).

I'm positive HP did that just to foil the refillers!

> I suggest looking at a Kodak AIO printer / fax / photo printer.

I have never refilled a COLOR laser printer. But I must say, refilling my
B&W HP office printer is trivial. You just pour the bottle in the hole
and seal it up with scotch tape.

Are the color laser printers as trivial to refill?

Is it the same pour-the-toner-in process, only perhaps three times over
(one for each color)?

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:19:30 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

> As far as color ink jet goe, HP will be the last one to touch. I am
> happy with Canon and Brother is OK too. All ink jet, laser printers in
> my family is Canon.

Can you easily refill the Canon & Brother printer ink?

I was an 'expert' on refilling the HP printer ink ... but alas ... it's
STILL a hugely frustrating process, what with the drop-dead dates and all.

Do the Canon & Brother ink tanks have time stamps?

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
I never refill. I Buy non-original ink cart. on eBay.
Have not had any trouble printing text or photo. Ink jet is
Canon Pixma MP990. Monpchrome laser is Canon Image class one.

HP turned me off two ways. Frequent paper jam and cost of ink.

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:40:04 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:

> FWIW, printing on a laser printer is MUCH less expensive, per page, than
> an inkjet, when buying the OEM supplies.

I have no experience with color laser printers.
Does that price comparison hold for color lasers also?

BTW ...

All I know is that refilling my B&W 92A (aka C092A) toner cartridge with
250 grams of black toner costs about $5 plus tax/shipping.
An empty used-once HP 92A/C092A cartridge costs another $5 (plus tax/shipping).

A new HP 92A/C092A cartridge is about $34 (plus tax/shipping) on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/HP-LaserJet-Cartridge-Retail-Packaging/dp/B00000JF58

Note: I see a new non-HP C092A-compatible cartridge for as low as $12,
but the reviews of this cheap alternative are horrific:
http://www.amazon.com/Compatible-C4092A-Laser-Toner-Cartridge/dp/B00111WM62

[HeyBub]

I have two Minoltas. Magicolor 1600W and Magicolor 2530DL. Both are, and
have been, re-filled.

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:58:07 -0700, mike wrote:

> Estimate the cost of a color print.

My kid is going to Kinkos to print color.
I think it's a few bucks each time.

Probably something like half a buck per picture.
When you think of it, it isn't bad considering you're not
paying to maintain the printer and buy printing supplies.

But, it's not convenient for them (the wife/kids).

> If the toners don't come separate, count on throwing out 2/3

That's a great point!

If we were to scope the 'perfect' refillable color laser
printer, would it have SEPARATE toner tanks for the 3 colors?

> After a month, see how badly they want that color printer.

Heh heh. I get where you're going. But these are 'women'.

> If you want to print photos, you've got another problem.
> A laser that prints nice photos is gonna cost you.

Hmmm... that's a key point. Yes. They want to print photos!

> He figures that, given all the ink he throws out for

> plugged cartridges, it's costing him about $5/picture.

I understand. And I don't disagree!

But, the comparison starts with scoping out a color printer
that can be refilled.

Are these the specs so far?
1. Photo quality color laser printer
2. Separate toner tanks/cartridges for each color
3. Refillable by the home owner with non-OEM toner

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:31:53 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

> I have two Minoltas. Magicolor 1600W and Magicolor 2530DL.
> Both are, and have been, re-filled.

Can you refill with non-OEM toner?
And can you refill each color tank separately?

[Oren]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 01:18:22 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:56:13 -0700, Oren wrote:
>
>> Even if you refill the cartridge in HP they will error with a time stamp
>> -- there is a trick / hack to get around the limitation on them with a
>> time / date stamp. I don't bother anymore.
>
>I know. I know. In fact, I had bought two sets of HP inkjet ink tanks,
>and, I put one set aside as an emergency spare - and I was using and
>refilling the first set - and then, at some much later date, I put the
>brand new (but a couple of years old by now) spares in to start the
>process anew ... and guess what? These never used cartridges ran out of
>time in just a month or three. (I don't remember the exact details but I
>was fuming that HP was so sinister.) I vowed never to buy another HP
>inkjet all-in-one printer for the rest of my life (just like I've vowed
>never to buy American or German cars ever again!).
>
>I'm positive HP did that just to foil the refillers!

I hate when that happens. I guess the windows registry reads embedded
(EPROM) info from them and stores it the registry. Hence the hack to
get around it. I'm not sure, but there is a hack for the problem.

>
>> I suggest looking at a Kodak AIO printer / fax / photo printer.
>
>I have never refilled a COLOR laser printer. But I must say, refilling my
>B&W HP office printer is trivial. You just pour the bottle in the hole
>and seal it up with scotch tape.
>
>Are the color laser printers as trivial to refill?
>
>Is it the same pour-the-toner-in process, only perhaps three times over
>(one for each color)?

I can't say. The few ink cartridges I refilled (and my last) I used a
syringe to fill them. Messy is saying it lightly, even when being
careful.

No more HP in my location....
--

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 19:25:37 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

> I never refill. I Buy non-original ink cart. on eBay.

You can't do that with the HP inkjet I had because there
is some kind of electronic 'signature' and time stamp
hokey pokey stuff specifically designed to thwart you.

That's why I'll never again buy an HP color inkjet.

> HP turned me off two ways.
> Frequent paper jam and cost of ink.

I'm ok on the jamming. But now that I've had the B&W
laser, I'm enthralled at how reliable it is compared
to the multiple HP inkjets I've had. I'm done with ink.

I just want to know what you guys use as a refillable color
laser printer.

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:46:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

> The few ink cartridges I refilled (and my last) I used a
> syringe to fill them. Messy is saying it lightly

Oh. I know. I know Oren. I have had blue fingers many times!

The HP cartridges I had were actually tanks with sponges in them.
So, you had to not overfill them, or they leaked.
But you had to fill them before they went too dry or they leaked.
Plus you had to drill the hole in the right spot or they leaked.
Even so, you had to deal with the time stamps that they burned
into the ink tank at the factory. There was no way around that.

You 'could' get past the time stamps they put in the printer
memory for the cartridge. I tried the CMOS battery trick and
shorting a pin on the motherboard ... but what worked best was
to have THREE cartridges because the printer would only remember
the unique id of the last two!

But all that effort simply turned me off because HP made it
difficult on purpose to refill the ink in the ink tanks.

Note: Technically, these weren't cartridges because the ink jets
were separate from the ink tanks in my HP all in one printer.

> No more HP in my location....

I'm OK with my HP LASER printer ... but I too will NEVER ever
buy another HP inkjet in my entire life!

Contrast all that mess with the inkjets with the trivial refill
of the B&W toner on the laserjet and I'm a believer in laser printers!

Hence the quest for a refillable color laser printer.

[Metspitzer]

With smart phones and laptops becoming more and more popular, just
show the kids a photo hosting site. Printed pictures are so
yesterday.

Photo hosting will allow you to view the photos everywhere on the
planet.

[mike]

On 8/18/2012 6:43 PM, J.G. wrote:

>
> But, the comparison starts with scoping out a color printer
> that can be refilled.
>
> Are these the specs so far?
> 1. Photo quality color laser printer
> 2. Separate toner tanks/cartridges for each color
> 3. Refillable by the home owner with non-OEM toner

I have a friend who uses a Tektronix/Xerox color laser printer.
It's not main stream, and the toner is expensive, but he
trolls EBAY and buys up toner when it shows up cheap.
He figgers he has two lifetime supplies of toner.

Might be interesting to see what toner shows up on EBAY and
buy that printer.

I bought some mono refill kits for my Laserjet almost 20 years ago.
Never used 'em because I keep buying full cartridges that show
up on Craigslist. Got a closet full of 'em. And another closet
full of $2 garage sale laserjets. Life is good here in B&W land ;-)

[Jim Yanik]

Metspitzer <Kilo...@charter.net> wrote in
news:g9i0385o8v8l1jqk5...@4ax.com:

there's no reason a toner tank cannot have separate sections and still be
refillable. KISS principle.

>>3. Refillable by the home owner with non-OEM toner
>
> With smart phones and laptops becoming more and more popular, just
> show the kids a photo hosting site. Printed pictures are so
> yesterday.

Not really. some folks want to print them for display.
like in a picture frame,maybe to have on their desk.

>
> Photo hosting will allow you to view the photos everywhere on the
> planet.
>
>

Not if you don't want to put your pictures on the "cloud" for anyone to
hack into.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

[John]

Kodak ink is so cheap refilling is just silly. Black $10, color $20 ~

All-in-one (w/wifi) ink jets are all junk now so look for the one that
has the least expensive ink.

Of course neither of our posts address the concerns of the op,

John

[Metspitzer]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:24:28 -0500, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov>
wrote:

It is a shame that is true. A small portion of the population screws
it up for everyone.

[John]

So again, when dealing with inkjets get the one with the cheapest (in
cost) ink, Kodak by a mile.

John

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
If your decision is to get a color laser AIO, Brother is not bad. set of
4 cart. on eBay goes for ~80.00 including S&H. Another thing to consider
is power consumption when running. Some use more than a KW.
(generates some heat) I believe Brother uses about 600W or so.

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 22:27:11 -0400, John wrote:

> Kodak ink is so cheap refilling is just silly. Black $10, color $20 ~

Interesting.

Are you saying that the HP refills, which I already KNOW are hugely
expensive, are priced higher than the ink refills for other brands?

[HeyBub]

Yes and yes

Suggestion: If you find a printer you like, check Ebay for refill kits. If
no kits are available, well...

Caution: Some (all?) printers have chips on the cartridges that inform the
printer when it's out of toner. Just adding toner is insufficient for making
the cartridge work - you have to replace the chip. Refill kits usually come
with replacement chips. The chips are about 1/3rd the size of a postage
stamp and are held in place by one teeny phillips screw. No big deal to
replace them.

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:51:52 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

> If your decision is to get a color laser AIO, Brother is not bad.

BTW, I don't need an 'all in one' printer.

I already have the HP laserjet 3200m B&W all-but-one printer:
a) It's a printer
b) It's a fax machine
c) It's a copier (but it is a sheet-feed copier)
d) It's a scanner (but it is a sheet-feed scanner)

So the only thing it doesn't do is scan big stuff because it's not a flat
bed style.

BTW, I learned, by accident, that this 'office style' HP laserjet 3200m
printer is MUCH MUCH MUCH more robust than my 'home style' HP d135
printer.

So, one 'trick' is to avoid the home marketed printers in favor of the
office-marketed printers.

At least that has been my experience so far with refilling the toner.

Hmmmmm.... Are there 'any' office style inkjets?
Or are all the office-style color printers lasers?

[J.G.]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 06:37:10 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

> Caution: Some (all?) printers have chips on the cartridges that inform
> the printer when it's out of toner. Just adding toner is insufficient

Certainly the Hewlett Packard HP d135 officejet that I had owned
contained the evil ink tank chip; but the B&W HP laser printer that I now
have, has nothing of the sort.

So it's not 'all' printers ... luckily for us!

The task is to find a color laserwriter that allows refilling.

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:24:28 -0500, Jim Yanik wrote:

> there's no reason a toner tank cannot have separate sections and still
> be refillable. KISS principle.

I have to say, refilling the HP 3200m laser printer is as KISS as it gets!

1. You buy the soldering iron hole-melting tool (optional).
2. You buy toner at the same time (about $5 for 250 grams).
3. You melt the hole & pour in the toner.
4. You put scotch tape over the hole!

Here's a picture of my refill yesterday, in fact:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/9007348/img/9007348.jpeg

The 'white' circle is a bit of finesse ala' alt.home.repair hints. I
scotch tape the white plastic top of an orange-juice pull-out over the
melted hole. Voila!

Total costs for, say, five years toner is something like:
a) Original HP C4092A (92A) cartridge (about $40)
b) Refills about every six months (about $5 each)
c) Empty used-once cartridge every 2.5 years (about $5 each)

Because of the ease of refilling, I LOVE my HP 3200m laser printer!
Because of the cost of refilling, I will NEVER buy an HP inkjet or
officejet printer ever again for the rest of my life!

Of course, if I go 'color', I'm assuming the refilling of the color laser
printer will be as simple as the B&W is currently.

[Frank]

On 8/18/2012 7:56 PM, Oren wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 19:39:14 -0400, Frank
> <frankperi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I feel the same way about HP but have three of their printers.
>
> I bought a Kodak printer and sold the HP Office AIO in a yard sale.
>
> Much cheaper for cartridges by a long shot. They can be refilled but I
> don't bother. My bride gets a rebate of about $3. for each empty.
>

> Even if you refill the cartridge in HP they will error with a time
> stamp -- there is a trick / hack to get around the limitation on them
> with a time / date stamp. I don't bother anymore.
>

> The Kodak printer head went bad after a few years. Even after the
> warranty expired they sent me a free print head... call India :-\
>

> I suggest looking at a Kodak AIO printer / fax / photo printer.
>

> Pick your poison...
>

The new HP's seem impossible to fill and wife had one refilled at
Walgreens and it would not work but the refilled one I bought from
Double Inks works fine.

My first HP, just in B&W was easy to refill and I'd get half a dozen
uses from a cartridge before it got somewhat fuzzy printing. The newer
HP's are hard for the owner to refill and now they have ways to prevent
your using other refills. Also annoying that when color starts to run
out, nothing will print. Most of the time I don't care if color is off
because I'm either filing a document where I don't care about color or
am printing something temporary.

Several years ago I met a couple of Kodak film researchers who told me
Kodak sold their cameras at practically no profit and made all their
money off the film. Such marketing tactic is not uncommon and that
appears to be what HP is doing.

[John]

The above prices I mentioned are *not* refills, but *new* Kodak branded
cartridges.

John

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
They are pricy. Home style light duty ones will do fair monthly duty
cycle, light in weight and small foot print. Maybe you should go to
Staples, have a look of all the demo units.

[J.G.]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 08:23:41 -0400, Frank wrote:

> Kodak sold their cameras at practically no profit and made all their
> money off the film. Such marketing tactic is not uncommon and that
> appears to be what HP is doing.

Both Kodak & HP made their money off the 'chemicals' or 'ink' of photo
printing.

Googling, it seems that I may have a problem though, with my idea of
adding a color laser printer for photos.

According to this cnet forum, laser printers don't do photos:
http://forums.cnet.com/7723-10149_102-268510/photo-inkjet-printers-vs-
color-laser-printers/

[J.G.]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:16:07 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> Of course, if I go 'color', I'm assuming the refilling of the color
> laser printer will be as simple as the B&W is currently.

I just realized that the color laser printer 'might' not work for pictures at home!

Here are some articles I'm reading, to determine if it can:
Laser Vs. Inkjet Printer
(http://www.buzzle.com/articles/laser-printer-vs-inkjet-printer.html)

Should Your Office Buy an Inkjet or a Laser Printer?
(http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/226497/should_your_office_buy_an_inkjet_or_a_laser_printer.html)

Laser vs. inkjet printers: which is better?
(http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/354659/laser_vs_inkjet_printers_which_better_/)

Inkjet Versus Laser Printers
(http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/testdrive/article.php/3521141/Inkjet-Versus-Laser-Printers.htm)

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:48:31 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
>Googling, it seems that I may have a problem though, with my idea of
>adding a color laser printer for photos.
>
>According to this cnet forum, laser printers don't do photos:
>http://forums.cnet.com/7723-10149_102-268510/photo-inkjet-printers-vs-
>color-laser-printers/

We have a color HP at work. While it is OK for our use, it is not
something I'd use for photos. We print some brochures that have
photos in them, but while very acceptable for that use, I'd not hang
them on my wall or want them in an album.

We had a Samsung, but that was not as good as the HP.

[J.G.]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 07:37:47 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

> They are pricy. Home style light duty ones will do fair monthly duty
> cycle, light in weight and small foot print

I just googled "small business color laser printer", which came up with:

PC World: Top 10 Color Laser Printers February 2010
(http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/collection/1674/top_10_color_laser_printers.html)
1. Dell 5130cdn Color Laser Printer
2. Lexmark C748de
3. Lexmark C792de
4. HP Color LaserJet Enterprise CP4025dn Printer
5. Dell C3760dn
6. Samsung CLP-775ND Color Laser Printer
7. OKI Printing Solutions C330dn
8. Brother HL-4570CDW
9. Dell 2150cdn
10. Xerox ColorQube 8570DN

Consumer Search: Color Laser Printers : December 2011
(http://www.consumersearch.com/color-laser-printers/small-office-printers)
1. Brother HL-4570CDW (*Est. $350
2. Lexmark C792de (*Est. $1500)
3. Xerox Phaser 6280N (*Est. $350)
a. Dell 5130cdn (*Est. $950)

About.com: Top 7 Color Laser Printers
http://sbinfocanada.about.com/od/officemachines/tp/colorlaser.htm
1. Dell 5130cdn
2. OKI C610DN
3. Brother HL4570CDW
4. Lexmark C544DW
5. Brother HL-4150CDN
6. Dell 2150CDN
7. Xerox Phaser 6010N

I see the 'problem' with the small office color laser printers.
a) They're pricey
b) They're huge
c) They don't do photos well

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:03:57 +0000 (UTC), "J.G." <gilmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Sure. Kodak markets as the anti-HP. Ink is ridiculously cheap. I
interviewed at their Dayton plant, where they make *huge* inkjet printers.
Their cost per page was just below xerography and just above offset. At
similar speeds. Amazing things.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:48:31 +0000 (UTC), "J.G." <gilmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:

For photos, dye sublimation is the best. It makes ink look cheap, though.

[Pat]

>
> PC World: Top 10 Color Laser Printers February 2010
> (http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/collection/1674/top_10_color_laser_printers.html)
> 1. Dell 5130cdn Color Laser Printer
> 2. Lexmark C748de
> 3. Lexmark C792de
> 4. HP Color LaserJet Enterprise CP4025dn Printer
> 5. Dell C3760dn
> 6. Samsung CLP-775ND Color Laser Printer
> 7. OKI Printing Solutions C330dn
> 8. Brother HL-4570CDW
> 9. Dell 2150cdn
> 10. Xerox ColorQube 8570DN
>

> I see the 'problem' with the small office color laser printers.
> a) They're pricey
> b) They're huge
> c) They don't do photos well
>

I have the HP CP4025dn. It has been a great printer for the last couple of
years. No problems, great prints. I use HP toner. For the good jobs I use
HP paper.
Photo's look pretty good especially if you use HP photo paper however they
are not as good as a inkjet printer.
For photos I use an Epson R1900. I use Epson ink. I use Epson paper.
Great photos. Good as any you buy.

They're pricey. They're huge. I am happy to pay it. When I replace these
the new ones will be bigger and more expensive.

Not only are the printers large but the paper and supplies for them require
considerable additional space and money.

[Quiet Man]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 22:39:15 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Q: What color laser printer can cheaply be refilled with non-OEM toner?
>
>For years, I bought the Costco HP inkjets which required ink priced at
>about 100 times what ink 'should' cost. I even tried the Costco $20 ink
>refills, but of course, HP makes refills almost impossible, on purpose,
>so I simply vowed to never buy another HP ink-based printer.
>
>I bought an HP B&W laser printer, and have happily and successfully been
>buying $5 guaranteed-used-once C92 cartridges and refilling the C4092A
>black toner over the years at home, for about $5 for 250 grams of toner
>as shown below (after melting a circular hole in the toner cartridge):
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/9007348/img/9007348.jpeg
>
>The problem is my kid wants a color printer and the wife concurs.
>
>I never again wish to go through the expensive ink-refill sheer hell of
>the typical HP inkjet ... so the 'only' color printer for me is one which
>I can easily and inexpensively refill, at home, from non-OEM sources.
>
>Hence my question:
>
>Q: Do you know of a color laser printer that can be as easily refilled
>from non-OEM sources like the B&W laserjets can?

Wow, 23 responses and not a single one answered your question.

I have a HP CP2025dn with four separate toner carts and I refill it
regularly with toner from http://www.tonerrefillkits.com/. Works
great. Cost of printer $468. Cost of spare set of carts $160 cost of
refill for a cart $35 or less. Refills last thousands of pages,
quality is good enough for photos, but not for professional
photographic work.

There are also some cheaper cart sets ($56-$68) listed on Amazon, but
they have mixed reviews. The stuff from tonerretillkits.com works. I
have been using it for six or more years for several different laser
printers.

Jim (at) Jim Winer (daht) com

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 10:33:18 -0700, "Pat" <p...@amityoregon.us> wrote:

>>
>> PC World: Top 10 Color Laser Printers February 2010
>> (http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/collection/1674/top_10_color_laser_printers.html)
>> 1. Dell 5130cdn Color Laser Printer
>> 2. Lexmark C748de
>> 3. Lexmark C792de
>> 4. HP Color LaserJet Enterprise CP4025dn Printer
>> 5. Dell C3760dn
>> 6. Samsung CLP-775ND Color Laser Printer
>> 7. OKI Printing Solutions C330dn
>> 8. Brother HL-4570CDW
>> 9. Dell 2150cdn
>> 10. Xerox ColorQube 8570DN
>>
>> I see the 'problem' with the small office color laser printers.
>> a) They're pricey
>> b) They're huge
>> c) They don't do photos well
>>
>
>I have the HP CP4025dn. It has been a great printer for the last couple of
>years. No problems, great prints. I use HP toner. For the good jobs I use
>HP paper.

I also have the P2015dn. Although it's been a good printer, the software
sucks. Using it on the network is next to impossible (unstable) so I use the
USB connection, which limits its functionality. I buy whatever paper is cheap
(usually from Target) and buy toner cartridges from inkjetsuperstore.com.

Because the HP software is so horrid, it'll be the last HP printer I buy.

[Smitty Two]

In article <k0pfgs$f5p$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,
"J.G." <gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:40:04 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
>
> > FWIW, printing on a laser printer is MUCH less expensive, per page, than
> > an inkjet, when buying the OEM supplies.
>
> I have no experience with color laser printers.
> Does that price comparison hold for color lasers also?

Yep. I've got a Dell inkjet AIO at work. I use it a lot, and it's
expensive to feed. Something like $130 for 3 black and one color
cartridge, ordered together.

OTOH, I have a Dell color laser at home, and although new cartridges are
expensive, I have yet to buy any. It's a cost-per-page advantage of 5 or
10 to 1.

>
> BTW ...
>
> All I know is that refilling my B&W 92A (aka C092A) toner cartridge with
> 250 grams of black toner costs about $5 plus tax/shipping.
> An empty used-once HP 92A/C092A cartridge costs another $5 (plus
> tax/shipping).
>
> A new HP 92A/C092A cartridge is about $34 (plus tax/shipping) on Amazon:
> http://www.amazon.com/HP-LaserJet-Cartridge-Retail-Packaging/dp/B00000JF58
>
> Note: I see a new non-HP C092A-compatible cartridge for as low as $12,
> but the reviews of this cheap alternative are horrific:
> http://www.amazon.com/Compatible-C4092A-Laser-Toner-Cartridge/dp/B00111WM62

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

"J.G." <gilmore...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:19:30 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:
>
> > As far as color ink jet goe, HP will be the last one to touch. I am
> > happy with Canon and Brother is OK too. All ink jet, laser printers in
> > my family is Canon.
>
> Can you easily refill the Canon & Brother printer ink?
>
> I was an 'expert' on refilling the HP printer ink ... but alas ... it's
> STILL a hugely frustrating process, what with the drop-dead dates and all.
>
> Do the Canon & Brother ink tanks have time stamps?

Canon inks are simple to refill, just need a jig (comes with some of
the refill sets) to punch out the plastic ball in the hole, or else
drill a new one. The refill bottles usually have a thin nib that fits
in the hole, almost no mess. Sealing is of course important
afterwares, either with a rubber piece made for the job, but I am just
as happy with scotch tape, as long as there the seal is tight it works
fine.

The chipped inks (you canot get unchipped one anymore as far as I
know) require a chip clearer (USB-attached to my PC) to reset the
counter on the cartridge, or else the printer will register it as
empty.

I don't know about the latest cartridges on the MG series PIXMA/PIXUS
models.

I haven't bought new cartridges for several years now, and have
refilled happily the following, to give an idea of the range over a
period of time: SELPHY D700, MP450, MP710 (similar to MP700), MP800,
MP810, MP960.
--
Gernot Hassenpflug

[Atila Iskander]

"J.G." <gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k0pf2a$f36$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

> I was an 'expert' on refilling the HP printer ink ... but alas ... it's
> STILL a hugely frustrating process, what with the drop-dead dates and all.
>

What is this "HP drop dead date" thing ?

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 08/20/12 02:29 am, Atila Iskander wrote:

>> I was an 'expert' on refilling the HP printer ink ... but alas ... it's
>> STILL a hugely frustrating process, what with the drop-dead dates and
>> all.

> What is this "HP drop dead date" thing ?

It may not apply to all HP inkjet printers, but it certainly applies to
our OfficeJet 7135 multifunction machine (printer, copier, scanner, fax)
from about nine years ago. Its ink cartridges (#14) have an expiry date:
they will stop working 18 months from the date printed on the package or
from the date the cartridge is installed, whichever comes first. Of
course, this only works if one sets the date in the machine; we leave
ours unplugged until we actually want to use it, and the date remains on
Jan 1 00 (I think that's what it is). ISTR that when I have connected
the machine to a computer to scan or print something (we use it almost
exclusively as a copier now), it reads the date from the computer and
updates its internal date setting; then it is necessary to stick a
credit card or some other thin, stiff object between the battery and the
contact so that the stored information is lost.

Even if we want to print or copy only in black and white, we still have
to have non-expired color cartridges in place.

A former hotshot with HP's printer division (distantly related by
marriage) says, "It's a wonderful system: we sell them a printer and
then keep them coming back for the ink."

I don't think I have ever seen after-market #14 cartridges, and
OfficeMax says that is a cartridge they cannot refill either.

I think there my be DIY kits for refilling the #14.

Perce

[Oren]

"...All Hewlett Packard ink cartridges have microchips installed that
tell the printer when the cartridge expires. HP cartridges typically
expire 2 years from their date of manufacture. After this date, the
printer will no longer recognize the cartridge. While you can't
permanently disable the timers in these cartridges, you can reset them
each time you refill a cartridge, or want to use it past its
expiration date. A universal method of resetting these timers is to
cycle cartridges."

Read more: How to Disable the Timers for HP Ink | eHow.com
<http://www.ehow.com/how_7460750_disable-timers-hp-ink.html#ixzz24660Mqk5>
--

[Bob F]

John wrote:
>> Contrast all that mess with the inkjets with the trivial refill
>> of the B&W toner on the laserjet and I'm a believer in laser
>> printers! Hence the quest for a refillable color laser printer.
>
>
> So again, when dealing with inkjets get the one with the cheapest (in
> cost) ink, Kodak by a mile.

OR, better yet. just never deal with inkjets. Period. The OP has it right.

[SMS]

On 8/18/2012 3:39 PM, J.G. wrote:

> Hence my question:
>
> Q: Do you know of a color laser printer that can be as easily refilled
> from non-OEM sources like the B&W laserjets can?

I would look by going the opposite direction. Look at Monoprice.com for
the after-market cartridges and see which printers they work with. Or
look at inkowl.com (or any other refill vendor) to see what they sell.

However, what I've done at my house has worked well. We have both a mono
laser and a color inkjet. The default printer is the mono laser. Almost
everything is printed on that printer (an HP Laserjet 5MP that I got for
free on freecycle, which is connected to a wireless print server). If
color is needed, and it isn't needed that often, the user has to
explicitly select the color ink jet for that print job. I've named the
printers "cheap black and white laser" and "expensive color." The inkjet
(Officejet 7210) uses cartridges that can be refilled, and that are sold
inexpensively at Monoprice if a new one is needed. The HP97 sells for
$10, or it can be refilled at Costco for less than $10.

I think you'll find that the cost of refilling color laser cartridges is
high.

[SMS]

On 8/18/2012 3:39 PM, J.G. wrote:

> I never again wish to go through the expensive ink-refill sheer hell of
> the typical HP inkjet ... so the 'only' color printer for me is one which
> I can easily and inexpensively refill, at home, from non-OEM sources.

It's not hell at all. If it's not too new, you can buy third-party
cartridges fairly cheaply. I.e. right now (because of a 20% off sale), I
can buy HP97 color cartridges for my Officejet for $8 each at Monoprice.com.

The key is to choose an inkjet carefully. First, avoid at all costs any
inkjet printer where you the print head and the ink cartridge are not
one unit. It seems counter-intuitive, but the biggest problem with ink
jet printers is when the print head goes bad. For all the HP bashing,
the one big advantage of HP ink jet printers is that you get a new (or
at least tested) print head with each ink cartridge.

1. Stay away from newer ink jet printers that make it very difficult to
use after-market or refilled cartridges.

2. Avoid ink jet printers where the print head is separate from the ink
cartridge.

3. Set up the printers in your house so that the default printer is the
monochrome laser.

4. Try to explain to your family that they should only select the color
printer for things that absolutely need to be printed in color.

5. Show your family how to send photos to Walgreen's, CVS, or Costco for
printing.

[J.G.]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:09:01 -0400, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

> Kodak markets as the anti-HP. Ink is ridiculously cheap

Now that's nice to know!

HP inks are crazily priced. I can't believe I fell for the cheap &
ubiquitous HPs for so many years!

I'm fine with my HP laser but my 'next' color printer will NOT be HP for
sure!

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:56:16 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

> The chipped inks (you canot get unchipped one anymore as far as I know)
> require a chip clearer (USB-attached to my PC) to reset the counter on
> the cartridge, or else the printer will register it as empty.

Are you saying that the Canon inks that you buy are now chipped?

If so, that's a pain.

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:39:04 -0700, Oren wrote:

>>What is this "HP drop dead date" thing ?
> "...All Hewlett Packard ink cartridges have microchips installed that
> tell the printer when the cartridge expires.

In addition to what Oren and Percival said, here's what HP says (verbatim):
"What is ink expiration?
Basically ink expiration is a built-in date on which certain
HP ink cartridges will stop working."

See:
What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&docname=c01764161

See also:
HP’s expiring ink cartridges EXPOSED
http://advantage77.com/blog/2012/01/25/hps-expiring-ink-cartridges-exposed/

Which says (verbatim):
"Some cartridges cease to function 12 months after the “Warranty Ends” date,
or 18 months after the ink cartridge is installed, whichever comes first."

See also this USENET thread by Orak Listalavostok on 7/7/2004:
HP OfficeJet 145 Black/color ink old. 8 days to expire. Printing will stop.

And, this canonical HP printer ink expiry date thread:
Various HP printer ink expiration dates analyzed
which was posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware on Sep 17, 2004.

Note: I don't know how to quote NNTP posts so someone can help me here,
especially since the HP ink respiry research in those two threads is
nothing short of phenomenal!

[Oren]

(Kodak) -- "It's not "cheap ink" it's premium ink made affordable."

I understand their ink has more color pigments, thus a better quality
ink. I like our Kodak ESP 9 printer... it saves much more money.

I could not find a print head local or online to replace mine. Called
New Deli (India) and was told the printer was out of warranty. Then
they said I was a "loyal customer" and said they would send a printer
head for free. It shipped from Ohio in 10 days.
--

[J.G.]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 13:43:59 -0400, Quiet Man wrote:

> I have a HP CP2025dn with four separate toner carts and I refill it
> regularly with toner from http://www.tonerrefillkits.com/. Works
> great. Cost of printer $468. Cost of spare set of carts $160 cost of
> refill for a cart $35 or less. Refills last thousands of pages,
> quality is good enough for photos, but not for professional
> photographic work.

This is a fantastic start!

What I like about it is:
a) It's a recommendation of a color laser printer which isn't too expensive
b) Refills are proven! And each color can be separately refilled!
c) It works well enough!

Thanks ... this becomes the leading suggestion for what color
laser printer can easily & cheaply be refilled from home!

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:50:34 -0700, SMS wrote:

>> I never again wish to go through the expensive ink-refill sheer hell of
>> the typical HP inkjet ...
>

> It's not hell at all.

At first I thought you were clueless ... until I read on! :)

> The key is to choose an inkjet carefully.

Indeed! All the ones I had were sheer hell to refill
(and, at the time, I knew what I was doing - yet they were STILL
sheer hell!)

> First, avoid at all costs any inkjet printer where you the print
> head and the ink cartridge are not one unit.

Mine were all separate 'tanks' and 'print heads'. :(

> It seems counter-intuitive

It does.

> but the biggest problem with ink
> jet printers is when the print head goes bad.

I had two fail on me.

> For all the HP bashing,
> the one big advantage of HP ink jet printers is that you get a new (or
> at least tested) print head with each ink cartridge.

All the HP inkjet printers I had, had separate print heads.
My fault! Now I know.

> 1. Stay away from newer ink jet printers that make it very difficult to
> use after-market or refilled cartridges.

It's getting harder and harder to find unchipped cartridges.
See details here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/10281-2-various-printer-expiration-dates-analyzed

> 2. Avoid ink jet printers where the print head is separate from the ink
> cartridge.

Very interesting observation!

> 3. Set up the printers in your house so that the default printer is the
> monochrome laser.

Makes sense to use the B&W most of the time.

> 4. Try to explain to your family that they should only select the color
> printer for things that absolutely need to be printed in color.

Good advice!

> 5. Show your family how to send photos to Walgreen's, CVS, or Costco for
> printing.

Makes the most sense of all!
Now to convince them of that!

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:55:34 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
> http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g
> http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?
lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&docname=c01764161

Here's what makes it all so confusing.

This is what HP says (verbatim) at that site above:

What is the ink expiration date?
It's important to note that the ink expiration date is NOT the date
stamped or printed on the ink supply.

Rather, the printed date on all HP inkjet supplies is the “Warranty ends”
date.

To determine the ink expiration date on a particular supply, the consumer
needs to consider three factors: the ink supply, its warranty date, and
the date on which the cartridge is initially installed.

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:55:34 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
> http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g

According to that official HP web site ...

This is the list of printers whose chipped ink will expire even if it is
full and has never been opened! (which is what happened to me!):

These won't take expired ink even if its full & unopened:
HP Officejet Pro K850
HP digital Copier Printer 610
HP Business Inkjet - all
HP Officejet D series,
HP Officejet 7100 series,
HP Officejet 9100 series
HP Professional series (2000 and 2500)
HP Color Inkjet cp1160 and cp1700

This is the list of printers where heroics can overried the expiry date:
HP Officejet Pro 8000, 8500, K550, K5300, K5400, K8600, L7400, L7500,
L7600, and L7700 Series
HP Photosmart 3110, 3210, 3310, 8250, C5180, C6180, C6200, C7180, C7200,
C8100, D6160, D7160, D7200, D7360, and D7400 series, HP Photosmart Pro
B8800, B9180
HP Designjet 510, 4000, 4500, 4X20, 5100, 5500, 8000, 9000, 10000,
L25500, L26500, L28500, L65500, LX600, LX800, LX820, LX850, T610, T620,
T770, T790, T1100, T1120, T1200, T1300, T2300 eMFP, T7100, Z2100, Z3100,
Z3200, Z5200ps, Z6100, Z6200 series, HP CM8050 and CM8060

[denni...@gmail.com]

On Monday, August 20, 2012 3:58:31 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
> (Kodak) -- "It's not "cheap ink" it's premium ink made affordable."

First off, Kodak is in the throes of bankruptcy right now and is not likely to emerge as an independent company. More likely the various divisions will be sold off to the highest bidders, with the printer division likely going to HP who will immediately halt production of the "redundant" (read: competitive) products.

Second off, I have not heard a single good thing about Kodak printers from anyone outside this group here today.

The reason HP inks are so expensive is because you're getting a new printhead as part of the ink cartridge on most of their models. Kodak's are cheap because the printhead is part of the printer. You might get 2-3 cartridges worth of ink through a printhead before output quality starts to degrade noticeably on the Kodaks.

HP does have a few models now with separately replaceable printheads. I have a 7000 series wide carriage printer with the separate head and a full set of double-life inks is only about $50. My previous HP's black cartridge was easily $50 by itself.

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:50:34 -0700, SMS wrote:

> It's not hell at all.

> The key is to choose an inkjet carefully.

Hi SMS,

At first I thought you were "clueless in San Jose",
but then I read your wonderful post, and I realized you
were right on the money!

One thing to add to your "choose your printer carefully" advice.

This HP web site tells us that there is no way to override the
drop dead date in "some" HP printers.

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&docname=c01764161

Trust me, I've tried (on the d135).
It just can not be done.
Forget CMOS resets.
Forget motherboard shorts.
Forget changing the printer time.
Forget turning off the ink-drop counting mechanisms.
Even forget the otherwise venerable trick of cycling of three cartridges.

The only solution (for those printers) is to NEVER BUY THOSE PRINTERS!
Otherwise, attempting to re-fill the chipped ink will be sheer hell.

So that others benefit, we should add that list of printers to avoid
in order to eliminate hell in your otherwise wonderful instructions!
...

HP Officejet Pro K850
HP digital Copier Printer 610

HP Business Inkjet (all HP business inkjet printers!)
HP Officejet D series (all)
HP Officejet d125xi,
HP Officejet d135,
HP Officejet d145,
HP Officejet d155xi,
HP Officejet 7110,
HP Officejet 7130,
HP Officejet 7140xi,
HP Fax 610
HP Officejet 7100 series (all)
HP Officejet 9100 series (all)
HP Professional series 2000 (all)
HP Professional series 2500 (all)
HP Color Inkjet cp1160
HP Color Inkjet cp1700
...
HP Officejet Pro 8000,
HP Officejet Pro 8500,
HP Officejet Pro K550,
HP Officejet Pro K5300,
HP Officejet Pro K5400,
HP Officejet Pro K8600,
HP Officejet Pro L7400,
HP Officejet Pro L7500,
HP Officejet Pro L7600,
HP Officejet Pro L7700 Series
HP Photosmart 3110,
HP Photosmart 3210,
HP Photosmart 3310,
HP Photosmart 8250,
HP Photosmart C5180,
HP Photosmart C6180,
HP Photosmart C6200,
HP Photosmart C7180,
HP Photosmart C7200,
HP Photosmart C8100,
HP Photosmart D6160,
HP Photosmart D7160,
HP Photosmart D7200,
HP Photosmart D7360,
HP Photosmart D7400 series,
HP Photosmart Pro B8800,
HP Photosmart Pro B9180
HP Designjet 510,
HP Designjet 4000,
HP Designjet 4500,
HP Designjet 4X20,
HP Designjet 5100,
HP Designjet 5500,
HP Designjet 8000,
HP Designjet 9000,
HP Designjet 10000,
HP Designjet L25500,
HP Designjet L26500,
HP Designjet L28500,
HP Designjet L65500,
HP Designjet LX600,
HP Designjet LX800,
HP Designjet LX820,
HP Designjet LX850,
HP Designjet T610,
HP Designjet T620,
HP Designjet T770,
HP Designjet T790,
HP Designjet T1100,
HP Designjet T1120,
HP Designjet T1200,
HP Designjet T1300,
HP Designjet T2300 eMFP,
HP Designjet T7100,
HP Designjet Z2100,
HP Designjet Z3100,
HP Designjet Z3200,
HP Designjet Z5200ps,
HP Designjet Z6100,
HP Designjet Z6200 series,
HP CM8050
HP CM8060

[Oren]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT), denni...@gmail.com wrote:

>On Monday, August 20, 2012 3:58:31 PM UTC-4, Oren wrote:
>> (Kodak) -- "It's not "cheap ink" it's premium ink made affordable."
>
>First off, Kodak is in the throes of bankruptcy right now and is not likely to emerge as an independent company. More likely the various divisions will be sold off to the highest bidders, with the printer division likely going to HP who will immediately halt production of the "redundant" (read: competitive) products.
>

Over the film. Who said HP will get the printer division.

>Second off, I have not heard a single good thing about Kodak printers from anyone outside this group here today.

Wow.

>
>The reason HP inks are so expensive is because you're getting a new printhead as part of the ink cartridge on most of their models. Kodak's are cheap because the printhead is part of the printer. You might get 2-3 cartridges worth of ink through a printhead before output quality starts to degrade noticeably on the Kodaks.
>

Mine did not degrade. The print head lasted at least 3 years, before
it needed to be replaced.

>HP does have a few models now with separately replaceable printheads. I have a 7000 series wide carriage printer with the separate head and a full set of double-life inks is only about $50. My previous HP's black cartridge was easily $50 by itself.

Screw HP.
--

[J.G.]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:46:20 -0700, Oren wrote:

> I hate when that happens. I guess the windows registry reads embedded
> (EPROM) info from them and stores it the registry. Hence the hack to
> get around it. I'm not sure, but there is a hack for the problem.

There is a LOT of confusion out there.

Some ink chips 'can' be overridden with 'hacks'.

Some just plain can not!

The trick is to never buy the printers that can not.
And to avoid the printers which require the hacks.

I, for one, love my B&W laser printer which lasts far longer
on one fill than any ink printer ever did for me, and which
can be easily refilled with 250 grams of toner for about $5.

The quest is to find a color laser printer which is as
easy yet still somewhat cheaply refilled!

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:55:34 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
> http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g

According to that official HP web site:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&docname=c01764161

For these printers:
Color Inkjet cp1160 series,
Officejet d125xi
Officejet d135
Officejet d145
Officejet d155xi
Officejet 7110
Officejet 7130,
Officejet 7140xi
HP Fax 610

The drop-dead expiry date for the chipped ink is as follows:

12 months after the “Warranty Ends” date, or 18 months after the ink cartridge is installed, whichever comes first.

There is no known way around this particular drop-dead date!

Note: There are 'other' printers where you 'can' get around the drop-dead date ... hence the confusion out there.

[Ashton Crusher]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 14:03:33 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 12:16:07 +0000, J.G. wrote:
>
>> Of course, if I go 'color', I'm assuming the refilling of the color
>> laser printer will be as simple as the B&W is currently.
>
>I just realized that the color laser printer 'might' not work for pictures at home!
>
>Here are some articles I'm reading, to determine if it can:
>Laser Vs. Inkjet Printer
>(http://www.buzzle.com/articles/laser-printer-vs-inkjet-printer.html)
>
>Should Your Office Buy an Inkjet or a Laser Printer?
>(http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/226497/should_your_office_buy_an_inkjet_or_a_laser_printer.html)
>
>Laser vs. inkjet printers: which is better?
>(http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/354659/laser_vs_inkjet_printers_which_better_/)
>
>Inkjet Versus Laser Printers
>(http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/testdrive/article.php/3521141/Inkjet-Versus-Laser-Printers.htm)
>
>
>

Yeah, when I was working I went thru several color laser printers with
the idea they would be able to do color photos better then the
"expensive" inkjet process. After wondering why the printed photos
weren't all that good I came across similar articles to your links.
Based on my past experience, if all you want to print in the way of
color photos is stuff to place in a work file to document <whatever>
then the color lasers are fine for that. Or if you just want to be
able to quickly and easily print color flyers with action photos for
your Rock Band's upcoming concert the lasers are great for that. But
if you want to print a really nice copy of Antie Ems's 101 birthday
party and see the sparkle in her gray hair you won't be happy with
what you get from the laser color unless you buy a very expensive one
and use the proper glossy paper. At that point they have lost any
advantage over inkjet cost.

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:25:19 -0700, dennisgauge wrote:

> The reason HP inks are so expensive is because you're
> getting a new printhead as part of the ink cartridge
> on most of their models.
> Kodak's are cheap because the printhead is part of the
> printer.

I think the record shows the reason HP inks are so expensive
is simply because HP prices its ink so expensive. Period.

Even for the ink tanks which have no print heads involved
(e.g., for the ubiquitous HP d135 #14 ink tank I had).

It's all part of their sales/marketing strategy.
They clearly make more money on ink than on printers.

For example, I forget the exact details, but I had asked
a printer friend of mine what it would cost him to provide
me as much ink as is in the #14 ink tank - and he even
gave me the ink, gratis - saying it was only worth pennies.

Of course he buys quality ink in bulk - but prior to that
I bought, from Costco, at retail prices, the $20 or $30
(I forget the exact price) refill kit also.

This kit refilled the HP d135 ink tanks many times over.

Point is, the ONLY reason HP ink costs as much as it does
is that it is an integral part of their sales strategy.

I, for one, will NEVER buy another HP ink-based printer
again, the rest of my life for this very reason.

But none of this helps us get to the best color laser
printer that can be easily refilled! :)

[Ashton Crusher]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 21:51:52 -0600, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>
>
>J.G. wrote:
>> Q: What color laser printer can cheaply be refilled with non-OEM toner?
>>
>> For years, I bought the Costco HP inkjets which required ink priced at
>> about 100 times what ink 'should' cost. I even tried the Costco $20 ink
>> refills, but of course, HP makes refills almost impossible, on purpose,
>> so I simply vowed to never buy another HP ink-based printer.
>>
>> I bought an HP B&W laser printer, and have happily and successfully been
>> buying $5 guaranteed-used-once C92 cartridges and refilling the C4092A
>> black toner over the years at home, for about $5 for 250 grams of toner
>> as shown below (after melting a circular hole in the toner cartridge):
>> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/9007348/img/9007348.jpeg
>>
>> The problem is my kid wants a color printer and the wife concurs.
>>

>> I never again wish to go through the expensive ink-refill sheer hell of

>> the typical HP inkjet ... so the 'only' color printer for me is one which
>> I can easily and inexpensively refill, at home, from non-OEM sources.
>>

>> Hence my question:
>>
>> Q: Do you know of a color laser printer that can be as easily refilled
>> from non-OEM sources like the B&W laserjets can?
>

>Hi,
>If your decision is to get a color laser AIO, Brother is not bad. set of
>4 cart. on eBay goes for ~80.00 including S&H. Another thing to consider
>is power consumption when running. Some use more than a KW.
>(generates some heat) I believe Brother uses about 600W or so.

All I've heard and seen about Brother is that they are always breaking
down - lots of horror stories. Maybe that's changed in the past
couple years.

Another thing to consider with lasers is startup time. With an
inkjet, there is usually only a few seconds startup time from when the
print job hits the printer. On lasers there can be a delay while the
fusing drum warms up, some printers have a fairly long delay.

[Ashton Crusher]

I've got an HP7280 and it will accept "out of date" ink carts, you
just have to agree to the printers admonition that using them might
void the warranty. I've had one ink cart refilled at Costco and they
appeared to have replaced the chip on it. This is for the 02 series
of ink carts. Print head is separate.

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:08:43 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> Yeah, when I was working I went thru several color laser printers with
> the idea they would be able to do color photos better then the
> "expensive" inkjet process.

I'm slowly coming to the following hard-won realization,
much to my chagrin, regarding printing color photos at home:

0. B&W laser writers (such as my HP 3200m) are trivial & cheap to refill
1. Most color laser writers are also trivial & cheap to refill.
2. However, color laser writers stink at printing pictures at home!

Given that, we are FORCED to look at ink-based printers:
0. IMHO, all ink-based printers from HP are to be avoided at all costs!
1. Kodak/Canon/Dell ink-based printers 'may' be a viable alternative.
2. The key is to buy the printer based on the ease of "replacing" the ink!

Drat! Color lasers, which are the subject of this task, are slowly
dropping off the radar screen ... and the dreaded ink-based printers
are rising up, again.

Why is finding a decent printer to print photos at home at a decent
price such a miserable process? :(

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:11:47 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> Another thing to consider with lasers is startup time.

I print maybe one page every two or three days, on average.

I generally leave the printer on all the time.

However, I 'could' just as well turn it off, for all it has
been used.

But, when I had the HP d135 AIO printer, I remember admonishments
to keep it running all the time - otherwise it wasted ink (I was
told).

And, we all know, HP ink costs more than it's weight in gold.

So, what's the general consensus for leaving printers on
which are only used sporadically a few days of the week?

Does that play a role in our printer selection decision?

[Oren]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:10:38 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Point is, the ONLY reason HP ink costs as much as it does
>is that it is an integral part of their sales strategy.

...and or they have a government contract. Don't know now, but their
corporate network printers were ~ $25,000.

Toner locally was ~ $100.00 a pop. I _had_ to buy two printers (50K)
through the contract. This meant $200 ever so often for local priced
toner.
--

[Bill]

J.G. wrote:

> Why is finding a decent printer to print photos at home at a decent
> price such a miserable process? :(
>

Gosh to you remember what it cost to bring in a roll of film for
processing? You had to drive both ways, and maybe make a phone call to
see if it was ready? And you had to wait a few weeks to see pictures of
your thumb! The good old days, huh? : )

[Frank]

I reviewed a printer ink recipe once for an importer not HP. It was
only b&w but ingredients were cheap. Probably about one cents worth
would fill a cartridge. HP inks may use more expensive ingredients but
your still talking of only a few cents more at most.

I don't know what it costs to make the print heads but I expect they are
not expensive either. Ditto for the container. Plastic and molding are
cheap.

I won't deny the company profit but ink cartridges are where they make
the bulk of it.

[Vic Smith]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
>Why is finding a decent printer to print photos at home at a decent
>price such a miserable process? :(

It's supposed to be. Walgreens and others spend many $thousands for
photo printers. They print photos cheaper than ever because of
volume. Probably gave their business analysts and purchasing
departments many miserable days.
I rejected home photo printing out-of-hand by looking at costs.
Didn't want to get miserable.

--
Vic

[chaniarts]

energy hogs, i would guess. they have to be kept at a hot temp for the
toner to be fused to the paper, so you're paying to keep it hot, and
then the a/c costs to keep the room cool. i guess in winter, if you're
in a place that needs heating, it's a wash.

[Bob Eager]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:25:41 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:11:47 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>> Another thing to consider with lasers is startup time.
>
> I print maybe one page every two or three days, on average.
>
> I generally leave the printer on all the time.
>
> However, I 'could' just as well turn it off, for all it has been used.
>
> But, when I had the HP d135 AIO printer, I remember admonishments to
> keep it running all the time - otherwise it wasted ink (I was told).

True of inkjets (and to stop them clogging). Nonsense for lasers.

Most lasers (even old ones) go into a power saving mode after a while,
and the fuser heater is turned off. But they still use power. We use a 20
year old HP LaserJet 4M+, which does that after 15 minutes. But they use
a lot of energy, so I generally turn it off. To encourage me, I have a
wireless power control on it now, controlled from my desk (on the other
side of the room).

We use that printer for all B&W stuff, and an ancient-ish Xerox C20
(Lexmark Optra 45 clone) for the occasional colour.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[SMS]

On 8/20/2012 1:07 PM, J.G. wrote:

>> 4. Try to explain to your family that they should only select the color
>> printer for things that absolutely need to be printed in color.
>
> Good advice!

I was thinking of setting something up where it was necessary to use a
password to print to the color printer. I could have put it on a
separate network with a network key that only I knew. But as my kids got
older they were able to grasp the reasons I wanted to minimize ink usage.

>> 5. Show your family how to send photos to Walgreen's, CVS, or Costco for
>> printing.
>
> Makes the most sense of all!
> Now to convince them of that!

For photos, the quality and longevity of commercially printed photos
versus inkjet should be sufficient.

Personally, we have greatly reduced our ink usage. Before we had
networked printers there were printers in the kids rooms. This was a bad
idea. Now they have to come downstairs to get their printouts.

Just bought a laser printer for the daughter-unit to take to college
next month, and of course it has refillable toner cartridges.

[Vic Smith]

Not for me. I always leave it off. Ran out of ink.
So for small stuff like travel directions I pull a piece of paper out
of the printer (unless there's an opened trash mail envelope handy)
then write it down with a pen or pencil.
Like
41 west for 2 miles
left on 93, etc.

For bigger stuff I e-mail it to a an Office depot about a mile away
and go there. Last time they printed about 6 pages of pdf files and
e-mails for about a buck.
But I don't run a business and I have a lot of services close by.
For me it's a lot cheaper not to buy ink.

--
Vic

[SMS]

On 8/20/2012 3:22 PM, J.G. wrote:

> Why is finding a decent printer to print photos at home at a decent
> price such a miserable process? :(

Around here it costs 9-15¢ to have a 4x6 photo printed on a Noritsu
commercial photo printer. If I send it to Walgreen's or CVS then usually
by the time I walk there, in ten minutes, the photo is ready. For large
prints Costco is the best deal.

By the time you buy photo paper and ink or toner it would be unlikely
for it to cost less to do it yourself, and of course the results would
not be nearly as good.

So I think the reason why it's so hard is that a decent photo printer
isn't cheap to manufacture or maintain and the wide availability of
photo printing service have eliminated the demand.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Precisely. I've bought my last HP. Their marketing tactics suck as badly as
their software.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:34:19 -0700, Oren <Or...@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:10:38 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
><gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Point is, the ONLY reason HP ink costs as much as it does
>>is that it is an integral part of their sales strategy.
>
>...and or they have a government contract. Don't know now, but their
>corporate network printers were ~ $25,000.

That's not unusual. Some of Kodaks (ink jets, even) run well into the
million$.

[PeterN]

On 8/20/2012 7:12 PM, SMS wrote:
> On 8/20/2012 3:22 PM, J.G. wrote:
>
>> Why is finding a decent printer to print photos at home at a decent
>> price such a miserable process? :(
>
> Around here it costs 9-15¢ to have a 4x6 photo printed on a Noritsu
> commercial photo printer. If I send it to Walgreen's or CVS then usually
> by the time I walk there, in ten minutes, the photo is ready. For large
> prints Costco is the best deal.
>
> By the time you buy photo paper and ink or toner it would be unlikely
> for it to cost less to do it yourself, and of course the results would
> not be nearly as good.

I use Costco for all prints. I think there quality is usually very good
= excellent, provided I use the ICC profile for the machine I am using.
I also did a cost analysis and it is slightly less expensive to do my
own printing, provided I don't factor in the mistakes. Once I factor
those in, Costco is much less expensive.


--
Peter

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

"J.G." <gilmore...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:56:16 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
>
> > The chipped inks (you canot get unchipped one anymore as far as I know)
> > require a chip clearer (USB-attached to my PC) to reset the counter on
> > the cartridge, or else the printer will register it as empty.
>
> Are you saying that the Canon inks that you buy are now chipped?
>
> If so, that's a pain.

Yes, they are all chipped. The last unchipped ones I think were the
"3" series (OK, I know the names are different in the rest of the
world), used on the MP710/MP740 (similar to the MP700/730, so pretty
old). These were replaced by the chipped "6" series and later types.
--
Gernot Hassenpflug

[J.G.]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:56:33 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

> Yes, they are all chipped.

If that's the case, and since I have all too much (bad) experience with
the HP d-series chipped ink tanks, maybe an ink printer isn't in the
future for me, as I'm sick and tired of their silly games.

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

"J.G." <gilmore...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:34:40 +0000, J.G. wrote:
>
> > The only solution (for those printers) is to NEVER BUY THOSE PRINTERS!
> > Otherwise, attempting to re-fill the chipped ink will be sheer hell.
>
>

> Do we have a good list of other brand's models NOT to buy because
> they too chip their ink tanks?

Canon chips their inks, but there are chip clearers, and besides, you can as far as I know still print with empty tanks, you just have to override the message each time.

--
Gernot Hassenpflug

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

Why is Epson not recommended in the US (I assume most posters here are
in the US)? Epson is great for photos, although as I concentrate on
linux Canon driver development I only use Epson as a backup. I buy 3rd
party inks for my Epson, haven't tried refilling it. I'm not aware of
any problems with the ink cartridges, but maybe there are, which is
why Epson is not being discussed here?
--
Gernot Hassenpflug

[Savageduck]

On 2012-08-20 22:07:52 -0700, Gernot Hassenpflug

Nobody has said anything about Epson not being recommended for photo
printing. There are many of us using Epson printers and are quite happy
with them, actually, very happy.
I believe there are some R3880, R3000, and some of the more exotic
Epson users here. I am using an R2880.
I also have a disappointing Canon i9900 which has never given me
results anywhere close to those my R2880 gives me.

I think the issue the OP has, is a particular one with HP and color
laser printers and the manner in which HP chips its toner cartridges. I
believe he wants a color laser printer which will give him adequate
results for photographs, as he rightly feels that the cost of inks for
photo quality ink jet printers is excessive. The bottom line is, there
is no free, or low budget ride, when it comes to producing quality
photo prints at home, or anywhere else for that matter.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Martin Brown]

On 20/08/2012 20:55, J.G. wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:39:04 -0700, Oren wrote:
>
>>> What is this "HP drop dead date" thing ?
>> "...All Hewlett Packard ink cartridges have microchips installed that
>> tell the printer when the cartridge expires.
>
> In addition to what Oren and Percival said, here's what HP says (verbatim):
> "What is ink expiration?
> Basically ink expiration is a built-in date on which certain
> HP ink cartridges will stop working."

Dell 1320cn isn't bad for almost photoreal laser printing (good enough
for small leaflet if you choose the paper to match the lustre of the
toner). And there are reengineered third party toner cartridges on sale
for about £40 a set (or two sets of original OEM for £110 with a free
laser printer thrown in). Offers on that model are over but I expect its
replacement will follow a similar trajectory. Shame no-one offers a deal
on C,M,Y,K,K - as that is about the right mix ratio even if you have a
dedicated monochrome laser printer for ordinary use.

I am keeping all my old empty Dell toner cartridges to refill one day if
the bulk refills ever become cheaper than whole cartridges!

If you are buying for photographic printing check out reviews carefully
- some laser printers are fit only for printing business graphs.

Regards,
Martin Brown

[Brian]

On 20/08/2012 23:10, J.G. wrote:
> Point is, the ONLY reason HP ink costs as much as it does
> is that it is an integral part of their sales strategy.
>
> I, for one, will NEVER buy another HP ink-based printer
> again, the rest of my life for this very reason.

The strategy is used by virtually ALL the inkjet makers, not just HP -
they sell the printers cheaply, sometimes at a loss, and then make their
money on the replacement cartridges.

[J.G.]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:11:45 +0100, Brian wrote:

> The strategy is used by virtually ALL the inkjet makers, not just HP -
> they sell the printers cheaply, sometimes at a loss, and then make their
> money on the replacement cartridges.

If that's the case (which it very well may be) ... then it's confusing to
me why I can quite easily replace the 250 grams of black toner in my
HPC092a (aka 92A) toner cartridge for my HP 3200m AIO printer.

Q: Why make ink so difficult to refill ... but not toner?

[Jim Elbrecht]

WAG here, but probably more bean counters involved in buying printers
with toner. Inkjets are for consumers.

My printer [an HP] is for convenience, not for saving money. I got
an HP because it works, and it does colors that the others don't. [I
can't describe it, but I can see it.]

When I want cheap, I go to Staples/Kinkos/Walmart.

Jim

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 23:14:41 -0700, Savageduck wrote:

> I think the issue the OP has, is a particular one with HP and color
> laser printers and the manner in which HP chips its toner cartridges. I
> believe he wants a color laser printer which will give him adequate
> results for photographs, as he rightly feels that the cost of inks for
> photo quality ink jet printers is excessive. The bottom line is, there
> is no free, or low budget ride, when it comes to producing quality photo
> prints at home, or anywhere else for that matter.

Wow. Nice synopsys!

In my naive days, I bought multiple HP ink printers from Costco, such as
the HP d135, which, due to the extreme expense of replacement ink tanks,
I naturally got very good at refilling. However, as noted, it should
NEVER be as difficult as HP purposefully makes it to simply refill an ink
tank - so - over the years, this frustration soured me on any and all HP
inkjets, swearing them off forever - and feeling good about that decision.

Still needing a printer, I immediately matured when I bought for about
$600 in those days, an HP laserjet 3200m, soon coming to the realization
that there 'was' a better way, which was B&W laser printing. Refilling
the C4092A is basically uneventfully trivial.

The kids/wife wanting a color printer notwithstanding, it 'appears' that
a color laser printer is not going to be acceptable for family photos;
hence I'm back to the only choice feasible - which is ink printers -
which I've previously sworn off forever (at least HP ink printers).

Finding out that almost all manufacturers make ink refilling difficult,
it appears that I'll have to choose my printer in reverse. That is, find
one that allows refilling - and then buy THAT printer.

This appears to be the only feasible method, although this entire process
of realization makes me want to kiss my trusty B&W printer in retrospect.

[SMS]

On 8/20/2012 1:25 PM, denni...@gmail.com wrote:

> The reason HP inks are so expensive is because you're getting a new printhead as part of the ink cartridge on most of their models. Kodak's are cheap because the printhead is part of the printer. You might get 2-3 cartridges worth of ink through a printhead before output quality starts to degrade noticeably on the Kodaks.
>

> HP does have a few models now with separately replaceable printheads. I have a 7000 series wide carriage printer with the separate head and a full set of double-life inks is only about $50. My previous HP's black cartridge was easily $50 by itself.

Personally I don't know anyone with a Kodak inkjet printer so I can't
comment on Kodak's print heads, but I do know people with Canon inkjet
printers and every one has had to either replace the print head or toss
the printer. It's an expensive proposition to replace the print head,
but some people do it because they have so many ink cartridges that they
don't want to change printers.

But the reason that HP inkjet cartridges are so expensive is really
because the price is set to what the market will bear, it's not the cost
of manufacturing. This may change as demand falls and consumers become
more savvy as to the cost of consumables. The popularity of tablets is
driving down demand for ink (and other printing consumables) because
finally there's a convenient portable way to take your content with you.

The falling prices of laser printers may also be a cause of reduced
demand for ink. I recently purchased a laser printer for the
daughter-unit to take off to college. $80 for a laser printer that does
double-sided, has wireless, and that has easily refillable toner
cartridges. It's not to the build quality of one of the older HP
Laserjets, but none of the consumer quality laser printers are built to
that level.

[SMS]

I worked for a printer company in the 1980's. The big money was still in
supplies (back then it was print wheels and ribbons). The margins on
supplies were huge because the supplies were so cheap to manufacture.
Back then there were machines for re-inking ribbons to save money. We
made regular ribbons that could be used until there was no ink left and
then be re-inked, but we also had single-strike ribbons that produced
better quality but that were single use. But you could not repair a
broken print wheel.

[Ashton Crusher]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:22:09 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:08:43 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>> Yeah, when I was working I went thru several color laser printers with
>> the idea they would be able to do color photos better then the
>> "expensive" inkjet process.
>
>I'm slowly coming to the following hard-won realization,
>much to my chagrin, regarding printing color photos at home:
>
>0. B&W laser writers (such as my HP 3200m) are trivial & cheap to refill
>1. Most color laser writers are also trivial & cheap to refill.
>2. However, color laser writers stink at printing pictures at home!
>
>Given that, we are FORCED to look at ink-based printers:
>0. IMHO, all ink-based printers from HP are to be avoided at all costs!
>1. Kodak/Canon/Dell ink-based printers 'may' be a viable alternative.
>2. The key is to buy the printer based on the ease of "replacing" the ink!
>
>Drat! Color lasers, which are the subject of this task, are slowly
>dropping off the radar screen ... and the dreaded ink-based printers
>are rising up, again.
>
>Why is finding a decent printer to print photos at home at a decent
>price such a miserable process? :(

Last time I needed to buy a new AIO Inkie I was going to avoid HP. I
read all the reviews I could find, compared features and user
satisfaction, plus looked at reported problems. I Finally settled on
a Canon that sounded REALLY good from the reviews. After getting it I
was VERY disappointed in it's print quality for text and photos, it
just did not match the quality on simple run of the mill daily
printing that I was used to from my old defunct (my fault) HP. Some
users had mentioned it's lengthy startup time for the first page but
it didn't sound too bad so I still bought it. Start up time turned
out to be a HUGE pain in the butt. If it sat for more then a few
minutes it seemingly parked it's print heads and then when you went to
print again there was all sorts of start up racket and delay while it
brought the heads out of cold storage. Then I discovered that in what
it considered normal mixed color and b/w printing it used a mix of all
the color inks to produce the "black" which came out more like a dark
charcoal. So its prints looked lousy and used up all the color ink!!
I took it back and returned to an HP AIO. Good luck with your
search!!

[Ashton Crusher]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:25:41 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:11:47 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>> Another thing to consider with lasers is startup time.
>
>I print maybe one page every two or three days, on average.
>
>I generally leave the printer on all the time.
>
>However, I 'could' just as well turn it off, for all it has
>been used.
>
>But, when I had the HP d135 AIO printer, I remember admonishments
>to keep it running all the time - otherwise it wasted ink (I was
>told).
>
>And, we all know, HP ink costs more than it's weight in gold.
>
>So, what's the general consensus for leaving printers on
>which are only used sporadically a few days of the week?
>
>Does that play a role in our printer selection decision?

Most lasers will have a power save that turns off the fuser heat which
is similar to turning them off. You definitely don't want to have one
that keeps the fuser hot all the time if you only print once or twice
a day and never turn the printer off. Of course, when the fuser is
turned off that means a delay in printing when you do want to print.
If it's only once a day it's probably not much of an issue.

I don't recall HP saying their printers should be left on all the
time, only that they should be turned off properly, which means with
their power button, not just by turning off the power strip it's
plugged into. If the printer is turned off in mid print by cutting
power from the power strip it will leave the print heads un-parked
which could lead to ink drying in them and causing clogging. In my
experience, no matter what you do there will be periodic episodes when
the HP goes into "clean and polish" mode where it exercises the print
heads by squirting some ink thru them into a build in disposal
reservoir.

[Brian]

On 21/08/2012 23:47, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> In my
> experience, no matter what you do there will be periodic episodes when
> the HP goes into "clean and polish" mode where it exercises the print
> heads by squirting some ink thru them into a build in disposal
> reservoir.

My Canon Pixma does the same - sometimes I have quite a wait before it
gets started on the actual printing!

[SMS]

On 8/21/2012 3:39 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:

<snip>

> I took it back and returned to an HP AIO. Good luck with your
> search!!

All the rantings about HP are not because of the print quality, they are
because of the business practices of what has essentially become an ink
company.

I find an HP AIO to be ideal. The print quality is excellent. I buy the
replacement color ink cartridges from monoprice.com for as low as $8.
The price of HP ink cartridges does not affect me.

The key is to look at consumables first, and then select a printer based
on the availability of after-market consumables. Even if it means
finding a used printer.

Freecycle is full of used printers. When computers lost their parallel
ports there were a bunch of free laser printers available (often of a
quality that is no longer available) because so many people wanted
printers with USB ports. Then a lot of people wanted printers with
wireless built in so they gave away their printers that lacked wireless.
Now a lot of people want printers that support Airprint, so they can
print directly from an Apple iPad or iPhone, so they are buying new
printers that support Airprint.

Of course there have always been easy workarounds to these issues, but
they are not well known. I.e. I have a wireless print server with two
USB and one parallel port that my printers connect to. There is an
Airprint print server from Lantronix so any network printer can print
from an iPad or iPhone. But new inkjet printers are so cheap that few
people will bother with any workaround that costs $100. What they don't
realize is that that new inkjet printer is designed to stop the use of
refilled ink cartridges and aftermarket ink cartridges.

[Chris Malcolm]

In rec.photo.digital SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/21/2012 3:39 PM, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> <snip>

>> I took it back and returned to an HP AIO. Good luck with your
>> search!!

> All the rantings about HP are not because of the print quality, they are
> because of the business practices of what has essentially become an ink
> company.

> I find an HP AIO to be ideal. The print quality is excellent. I buy the
> replacement color ink cartridges from monoprice.com for as low as $8.
> The price of HP ink cartridges does not affect me.

> The key is to look at consumables first, and then select a printer based
> on the availability of after-market consumables. Even if it means
> finding a used printer.

I happily used one of the allegedly better quality EPSON-compatible
inks for a few years. Not the cheapest, but a good reputation on the
web. My own tests had shown me only slight differences in colour, not
worth paying all the extra for unless I wanted to do some exhibition
quality prints. Which I sometimes did. And so sometimes I ended up
doing a few of my family snaps with EPSON inks, and most with the same
good quality replacement ink.

My wife pinned those she liked best on the kitchen wall, carefully
choosing a position the sun never reached. Nevertheless after a year
all the replacement inks had browned off like old masters, whereas the
EPSON ink snaps were still bright and colorful. After two years the
compatible prints looked like fading sepia prints, whereas the EPSON
ink prints still looked newly minted.

So now I stick to the printer maker's inks. Have you tried any
lightfast fading tests on your 3rd party inks?

--
Chris Malcolm

[Gernot Hassenpflug]

Yes, many of the Canon inkjets which, after all, are made for
photo-printing, improve the shades of grey by using other colors. This
is quite natural since the point of using them is to print quality
photos.

However, if one wants to use the printer for other things, which is
also natural, such as low-cost B/W printing, then one has to ensure
that the printer comes with at least one plain media mode (not the
highest or even medium quality one, in most cases) that prints only
using black ink. Then one uses that.

There is a whole range of Canon printers dealing with this problem by
shipping with two cartridges: black and color. One can then select
black-only cartridge and print all one's work only in black. Refilling
either cartridge is also trivial.
--
Gernot Hassenpflug

[Ashton Crusher]

On 23 Aug 2012 13:11:32 +0900, Gernot Hassenpflug

The single Canon I tried did have both black and color carts. Yet it
insisted on using the color mix for black unless you did something to
force it to use the black - I forget the details now. You could work
around it but it was a pain to deal with and simply wasn't a problem
with the HP. The thing that surprised me most was that so many
reviewers raved about its print quality and it was clearly, at least
to my eye, inferior to HP for the 90% of the printing I do. When
doing 4x6 color on glossy photo paper it did fine but no better then
the HP.

[J.G.]

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 06:47:42 -0700, SMS wrote:

> The key is to look at consumables first, and then select a printer based
> on the availability of after-market consumables.

That's sage advice!

[J.G.]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:47:57 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> You definitely don't want to have one that keeps the fuser hot all the
> time if you only print once or twice a day and never turn the printer
> off.

Hmmm... I will have to look to see if my B&W HP 3200m laser printer turns
itself off.

What feature am I looking for by name?

I googled for "hp 3200m turn off feature" but didn't find what I'm
looking for.

Does this auto-off feature have a name that I can see if the HP 3200m
laserjet has the capability?