Do I need $6,000 water softener for 12 to 14 grains of calcium in well water?

[Arklin K.]

Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
water softener system in my garage.
http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf

Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg

The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.

He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
so, he said, mine is super hard.

He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.

The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of use. I
also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to chunks of
the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the super hot
bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).

While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?

Oh, he said I could rent it, at $600 installation + $55 a month.

[Dottie]

On May 17, 4:54 pm, "Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote:
> Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
> company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a

> water softener system in my garage.http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf

>
> Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
> electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.
>
> Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
>  http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg
>
> The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
> a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
> 30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
> calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.
>
> He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
> so, he said, mine is super hard.
>
> He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
> water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
> dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.
>
> The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
> kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of use. I
> also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to chunks of
> the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the super hot
> bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).
>
> While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
> less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?
>
> Oh, he said I could rent it, at $600 installation + $55 a month.

The county changed our water recipe sometime last year and now we have
a lot more calcium and lime deposits than before. We have a water
softener - for the whole house - and it had always worked just fine.
It still does for the most part but I have scrub to get the white
spots off the sink and use Jet Dry in the dishwasher. My neighbors
have the same problem -- and they have water softeners, too. The
point is -- don't expect the water softener to stop your problem. It
may make it less -- but that's not for sure. And my water softener -
from Home Depot - was installed by my late husband. He was not the
greatest handyman so if he could do it you probably could, too. He
replaced another one -- so it wasn't something he had to do from
scratch. I don't remember the exact cost but do know it was no where
as expensive as what you are paying. It's a GE. Suggest you get
several bids --

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700, Dottie wrote:

> don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

Interesting. The salesman said that it would take the calcium down to
zero grains and that every 600 gallons it would replenish itself.

He said the only thing I'd need to do is put fifteen pounds or so of salt
into the brine tank twice a year (for the reflush every 600 gallons).

He said the family uses about 75 gallons per person so that's why there
were two tanks.

> And my water softener -
> from Home Depot - was installed by my late husband.

From what I can gather, there is the existing pipe going into the tank,
plus a bypass valve to bypass the system for repairs plus the system
itself.

Since the system doesn't need electricity, all it needs is plumbing -
which I can do, unless there's something special needed.

Now to find an equivalent water softener that can handle 14 grains of
calcium (is that really a lot like the guy said ... or just normal)?

[Stormin Mormon]

As with any big decision. The standard advice applies.

* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.
* Do some internet research
* Talk to three or four neighbors. Ask who they use, who they say to avoid
like the plague.
* Spend some time in scripture and prayer, and see what the Spirit directs.
* I prefer to choose the one who talks advantages, rather than scare
tactics.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote in message
news:jp3oh8$n4a$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

[Dan Espen]

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> writes:

> As with any big decision. The standard advice applies.
>
> * Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.
> * Do some internet research
> * Talk to three or four neighbors. Ask who they use, who they say to avoid
> like the plague.
> * Spend some time in scripture and prayer, and see what the Spirit directs.
> * I prefer to choose the one who talks advantages, rather than scare
> tactics.

** If there are no special skills involved you'll save a LOT of money
doing it yourself.

--
Dan Espen

[Dave M.]

Arklin,

Kinetico makes very good water softeners but there are many that are
much cheaper. Sears has softeners on sale often. $600 for installation?
Thats pretty high for a simple plumbing job.
Get more quotes.
These are ion exchange devices. You'll be replacing the Calcium with
twice as much Sodium. Sodium is a lot more soluble but you'll still have
some crud build up where water dries.
I'm not sure how having a pool affects your problem but if your softener
only delivers 600 gal. and then needs to recharge, you'll be filling your
pool for a long time

Dave M.

[Dottie]

On May 17, 6:08 pm, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote:

I probably should have added -- my water softener uses salt pellets.
I check it monthly to be sure it doesn't need more but it doesn't use
a lot of the salt. It is hooked up to electricity some way because it
has a dial with the time, the time to re-generate (2 a.m.) and some
other things. Like I said, we got a water softener like the one that
broke so it wasn't a big thing to replace it. Ask your neighbors what
they do. I live in Florida where people coming around, offering to
test your water and finding all kinds of awful things in it is a
common problem. The newspaper and TVs have a lot of stories about the
scams. So do be careful -- don't get taken advantage of.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 05/17/12 04:54 pm, Arklin K. wrote:

> Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
> company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
> water softener system in my garage.
> http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf
>
> Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
> electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.
>
> Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg
>
> The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
> a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
> 30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
> calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.
>
> He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
> so, he said, mine is super hard.

I don't know how much of our water hardness is due to calcium and how
much is due to other minerals, but ISTR that our "total hardness" is
about 150ppm. Whatever the cause of our hardness, a WaterBoss softener
costing less than $400 a few years ago, that I installed myself, seems
to take care of everything. Uses a $4 bag of salt every few months.

Perce

[micky]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 17:40:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>As with any big decision. The standard advice applies.
>
>* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.

It's a good thing you mentioned that. I got estimates once. The guy
said $1600. I said, Really? He said, Yup. I said, Are you sure?
He said Yes. So I figured I had 3 estimates and that should be
enough.

[Stormin Mormon]

You copied that off a Jay Leno routine?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"micky" <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:sfabr7h7r2lfmqu51...@4ax.com...

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:41:29 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700, Dottie wrote:
>
>> don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

A softener replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, one for two. If water is
let to stand, sodium will be left (instead of calcium), causing spots.

>Interesting. The salesman said that it would take the calcium down to
>zero grains and that every 600 gallons it would replenish itself.

Automatic regeneration. It's generally set up to do it at night when you're
not likely to use water. It is noisy, if you care about such things.

>He said the only thing I'd need to do is put fifteen pounds or so of salt
>into the brine tank twice a year (for the reflush every 600 gallons).

Not buying that! I was using a hundred pounds a month.

>He said the family uses about 75 gallons per person so that's why there
>were two tanks.

>> And my water softener -
>> from Home Depot - was installed by my late husband.
>
>From what I can gather, there is the existing pipe going into the tank,
>plus a bypass valve to bypass the system for repairs plus the system
>itself.
>
>Since the system doesn't need electricity, all it needs is plumbing -
>which I can do, unless there's something special needed.
>
>Now to find an equivalent water softener that can handle 14 grains of
>calcium (is that really a lot like the guy said ... or just normal)?

It's more than normal, since most city water is already treated but it's not a
"lot" for a well. Thirty or even forty grains is a lot, but not unheard of.
I few years ago, we lived in an apartment where the calcium came out as rocks.
*THAT* was hard water.

[Duesenberg]

On 5/17/2012 4:54 PM, Arklin K. wrote:
> Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
> company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
> water softener system in my garage.
> http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf
>
> Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
> electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.
>
> Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg

I have an ECOWater softener and I would NEVER use it for pool or garden.
Our water is 28 grain and the softener is for indoor water use only.

I would never buy a softner from a big box store or sears. Do your
reasearch, many of them are poorly built with poor quality valves. Many
of them are built by Ecowater, HOWEVER Ecowater build their own branded
with 5 layers of resin and much better quality valves than the 1 layer
of resin for the sears/home depot crap.

Ours has filtration and we paid $2100 installed. We expect it to last
25 years. Make sure you do your research on Valves for water softeners

Our softener is programmed to flush out every 550 gallons. Frankly I
wouldn't waste softened water on outdoor use and it's not reccommended
for gardening..

Should mention that Culligan has had bankruptcy issues in the past and
you may have to research your local dealer. Some are great and some are
poor but I bet most are better that the big box stores.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT), Dottie <Dorot...@aol.com>
wrote:

>
>The county changed our water recipe sometime last year and now we have
>a lot more calcium and lime deposits than before. We have a water
>softener - for the whole house - and it had always worked just fine.
>It still does for the most part but I have scrub to get the white
>spots off the sink and use Jet Dry in the dishwasher. My neighbors
>have the same problem -- and they have water softeners, too. The
>point is -- don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.

The softener need to be adjusted for the new water mix if it is higher
in calcium or other minerals. It must be regenerated more frequently
too.

A good softener properly adjusted for your water will give zero
hardness.

> Suggest you get
>several bids --

Don't buy on price alone. A good unit properly setup and serviced by
a reputable company is far more important than saving fifty bucks up
front. Find a reliable seller.

[Duesenberg]

Apologies for the uncorrected spelling... I hit send too soon...

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:41:29 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
<ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700, Dottie wrote:
>
>> don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.
>
>Interesting. The salesman said that it would take the calcium down to
>zero grains and that every 600 gallons it would replenish itself.
>
>He said the only thing I'd need to do is put fifteen pounds or so of salt
>into the brine tank twice a year (for the reflush every 600 gallons).

He's right, but that sounds light on the salt.

>
>Since the system doesn't need electricity, all it needs is plumbing -
>which I can do, unless there's something special needed.

It needs power for the timer and maybe a synchron motor for the
valves is so equipped. In most cases, you can just plug in a power
supply and can even use an extension cord.

>
>Now to find an equivalent water softener that can handle 14 grains of
>calcium (is that really a lot like the guy said ... or just normal)?

A bit high, but not a big deal. At work, we handle 21 grains and use
5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
One thing for sure is you need two resin tank system so always softened
water is ready w/o pause for regeneration.
Kinetico is like that and it does not need power to run it.

[Duesenberg]

>
> Not buying that! I was using a hundred pounds a month.
>

I use 100 gallons of water a day average. I add 80 pounds of salt to our
EcoWater 3500 every 4 months. It's programmed to regenerate every 550
gallons.

We use Windsor System Saver pellets only.

[Duesenberg]

On 5/17/2012 10:55 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700 (PDT), Dottie<Dorot...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> The county changed our water recipe sometime last year and now we have
>> a lot more calcium and lime deposits than before. We have a water
>> softener - for the whole house - and it had always worked just fine.
>> It still does for the most part but I have scrub to get the white
>> spots off the sink and use Jet Dry in the dishwasher. My neighbors
>> have the same problem -- and they have water softeners, too. The
>> point is -- don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.
>
> The softener need to be adjusted for the new water mix if it is higher
> in calcium or other minerals. It must be regenerated more frequently
> too.
>
> A good softener properly adjusted for your water will give zero
> hardness.
>
>

Many good models have programming that can take care of the guess work
now. You can program in the hardness and the softener will monitor flow
rates daily and adjust it's regeneration accordingly

[Duesenberg]

> 5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.

5000 gallons a day??

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:36:19 -0400, Duesenberg <a...@123.com> wrote:

>
>> 5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.
>
>5000 gallons a day??

You think 5000 gallons is a lot for a decent sized business?

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:24:01 -0400, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

> A softener replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, one for two. If
> water is let to stand, sodium will be left (instead of calcium), causing
> spots.

Wow. He did NOT mention that!

He gave me a litany of the bad things that were happening due to the
calcium, from:
- spots on dishes
- film on shower stalls
- clogged pipes
- clogged faucets
- crusty kitchen kettles
- less efficient water heater due to a foot of calcium
- less efficient laundry soap & fabric softener
- better tasting water

Of all those, which would replacing calcium-water with sodium-water
actually solve?

BTW, about the only ones I care about are the kitchen kettle, the pipes,
and the water heater.

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:18:40 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:

> I add 80 pounds of salt to our EcoWater 3500 every 4 months

How much does 240 pounds (80x3) of salt for a full year cost?

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:04:06 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> It needs power for the timer and maybe a synchron motor for the valves
> is so equipped.

Apparently the valves are all water flow based.

The salesman even went to great length to explain how the ceramic disks
that determine the 600 gallon regeneration period are based only on usage
and not ever on time.

He also mentioned that the water is always the already-cleaned water so
that the disks themselves don't get gunked up.

http://www.kineticoofsiouxland.com/index.php/premium-green-package/
kinetico-2060s

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:55:14 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> A good unit properly setup and serviced by a reputable company is far
> more important than saving fifty bucks up front. Find a reliable
> seller.

Fifty bucks is one thing, but this seems to be $6000 bucks.

Googling, I found this price which is $6,500 installed for the Kinetico
2060s (which I assume is the same or similar to the Kinetico 2060 I was
quoted for $6,000).

Seems high though - for 'just' a water softener ...

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 18:08:45 -0400, Dan Espen wrote:

> ** If there are no special skills involved you'll save a LOT of money
> doing it yourself.

That's what I'm thinking.

It seems to be just plumbing. Nothing else.

I called Kinetico for a price quote for them to ship the tanks to me.
They said they'd get back to me but I have not received the call yet (it
was later in the day and I'm in a different time zone).

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 16:12:03 -0700, Dottie wrote:

> So do be careful -- don't get taken advantage of.

I am. That's why I'm asking you guys and gals! :)

I do know the water is hard as I can see the white stuff on the bottom of
the kettle after about a week of daily coffee making.

I can also see the white stuff in the garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg

So, I can 'assume' what's in the pipes and in the water heaters ...

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 19:12:26 -0400, Dave M. wrote:
> These are ion exchange devices. You'll be replacing the Calcium with
> twice as much Sodium. Sodium is a lot more soluble but you'll still have
> some crud build up where water dries.

You're the second person to mention you replace 1 calcium with 2 sodiums.

Does the water taste salty?

Given the three things I care about most are:
1. Clogging the pipes
2. Clogging the hot water heater
3. Staining the kettle and glass shower

May I ask:
Q: Would the double sodium water do those three things also?

> I'm not sure how having a pool affects your problem

We discussed that. The salesman said he'd tie the softener to the input
AT the house. He said most pools are filled from the irrigation system
which is NOT tied to the house (he said).

I didn't design the house so I don't know but we could test it by hitting
the shutoff valve inside the house, he told me.

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 19:53:36 -0400, Percival P. Cassidy wrote:

> don't know how much of our water hardness is due to calcium and how
> much is due to other minerals, but ISTR that our "total hardness" is
> about 150ppm. Whatever the cause of our hardness, a WaterBoss softener
> costing less than $400 a few years ago, that I installed myself, seems
> to take care of everything. Uses a $4 bag of salt every few months.

I didn't know what ISTR meant so I googled it.
I Seem To Recall ...

The salesman told me to divide by 17 to convert so, in your case, 150 ppm
divided by 17 = about 9 grains of 'hardness'.

I, like you, have no idea if that's calcium or a mixture but I certainly
see pure white stuff as in this picture of my garden hose:
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg

I "assume" that's calcium. The salesman said it was calcium. But he only
did one drop test which turned the water from red to blue in 12 to 14
drops where he said every drop was 1 grain of calcium.

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:54:35 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:
> I would never buy a softner from a big box store or sears. Do your
> reasearch, many of them are poorly built with poor quality valves.

The salesman told me that the ones at Costco and Sears are membrane
filters and he said that, at 12 to 14 grains, they would get clogged in
months.

I don't know if that's true or not though ...

> Ours has filtration and we paid $2100 installed.

Ah, that's about 1/3 the price I was quoted in the Silicon Valley!

> Our softener is programmed to flush out every 550 gallons.

This one he tried to sell me would be programmed for 600 gallons. So
those numbers jive.

[Arklin K.]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 21:09:04 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

> you need two resin tank system so always softened water is ready w/o
> pause for regeneration.
> Kinetico is like that and it does not need power to run it.

Thanks for confirming that.

The 2060 Kinetico system 'is' a two-tank (actually three when you count
the brine tank) where one works then it switches to the second one for
cleaning and then back to the first - all with the water-operated valves
on top.

[Arklin K.]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 04:57:22 +0000, Arklin K. wrote:

> The 2060 Kinetico system 'is' a two-tank (actually three when you count
> the brine tank) where one works then it switches to the second one for
> cleaning and then back to the first - all with the water-operated valves
> on top.

I forgot to mention that the salesman 'sized' the system based on the
size of the house and the pipes (e.g., I have smallish 1 inch or maybe
1.5 inch pipes he said).

http://www.kineticoofsiouxland.com/index.php/premium-green-package/
kinetico-2060s

[noname87]

You need to do some googling. There are plenty of web sites that can
educate you better than I can. However, some comments from my
experience:

I never felt that the treated water tasted salty.

I had 22 grains of hardness. The metal spray arms on my dishwasher
were white from the calcium deposits and clogged regularly. After
installing a water softener, no more issues.

A water softener should be sized based on the number of people,
overall water usage and the water hardness. Pipe size mainly
determines the controller valve inlet size and the max flow possible.
If you plan on supplying soft water to your pool, you will need to
add that to your overall water usage. You will need a larger unit if
that is your plan. Most installations are set up to only treat inside
water usage. If sodium is a concern, you might want to run an
untreated supply to the kitchen.

I seriously doubt that hard water will ever clog your pipes. It will
cause buildup where the water can evaporate such as in the dishwater,
toilets, sinks, faucets, etc. I don't know about the water heater. I
suspect you could get some buildup (not a foot!) and lose some
efficiency and maybe a little bit of life.

They will tell you about all the money you will save on cleaning
products. In reality, you should be able to use less detergent in the
dishwasher and washing machine but the saving are not that great. Your
shower doors will be easier to clean.

My first water softener was from Sears for $500. Last about 7+ years
until the resin tank started to fail. Worked fine, never clogged. I
would not recommend Sears. The second unit was purchased on the web.
This one had a Fleck valve with demand driven regeneration. Cost about
$800 about 4 years ago and should last 10+ years. Very easy to install
but you do need power. The support from the dealer was excellent.

You will need way more than 15 pounds of salt.

Regeneration is usually done at night. During that time (roughly 1-2
hours), you will have untreated water. Who cares if at 2 am that the
water is hard.

These systems tend to reliable. If the controller fails, they can be
repaired or replaced. The resin does have a life span and can also be
replaced.

My recommendation is to consider buying on the web or maybe a local
dealer. Find a dealer that will help you properly size the unit. You
do not want to vastly oversize or undersize the unit. From what I
remember, the unit should be sized so that regeneration happens every
7-14 days. Stay with a high quality controller (Fleck is one popular
brand). Install it yourself or hire a plumber or handyman to do for
you. Make sure that you have a means to bypass the system if service
is needed. A lot of controllers have this as part of the system.
Unless there is more to the story, a $6000 dollar system is overkill.

[bob haller]

my dad and step mom have high blood pressure so the drinking water is
run thru a osmosis filter.

honestly i cant tell a difference in salt taste between osmosis and
softened.

the most interesting trouble they had was a osmosis filter system
failure while away on vacation. their home is in phoenix one floor on
a slab. they had water leaking out the doors when they got home from a
week cruise. the house had over a foot of water filling it.

they had trouble opening the doors, i think they had to break a window
to get in. the water pressure held all the doors shut. this was years
ago. a tank seam burst

dad wasnt upset homeowners insurance and the osmosis manufacturer paid
for wall repairs, a complete repaint, all new carpeting, a bunch of
new furniture, and a week at a nice hotel with jacuzzi while
everything was fixed..

[Caesar Romano]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 20:54:00 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
<ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote Re Do I need $6,000 water softener for
12 to 14 grains of calcium in well water?:

>Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
>company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
>water softener system in my garage.
>http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf

This will work just as well:
http://www.sears.com/kenmore-ultra-high-efficiency-water-softener/p-04238420000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

Installation cost will probably be about $400 or less. You'll have to
get a quote on that yourself.
--
Work is the curse of the drinking class.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:36:19 -0400, Duesenberg <a...@123.com> wrote:

>

>> 5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.
>
>5000 gallons a day??

Yes, business is slow right now. Mostly it should be 7500 gallons.
This is used to feed two industrial boilers. I buy salt 2000 pounds
at a time to.

Check out what a big hotel uses. Or bigger industry.

[Ed Pawlowski]

For comparison, check an Ecowat4er dealer for a price
http://www.ecowater.com/

That is the system we have at work. Very reliable for about 10 years
now. We use thousands of gallons a day.

Most important part of a system is the valves. Cheap one fail often,
good ones rarely.

I've heard bad stories about Culligan and would avoid them. They also
went bankrupt a while back.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

I would first get the water tested somewhere else -- preferably not by
someone who wants to sell you something. Or you can do it yourself with
test strips that the "home improvement" stores often have free for the
taking next to their water softeners; these may not be super-accurate,
but they should at least put you in the right ball park.

Our softened water doesn't taste salty, but we take our drinking water
from a point before the water softener, then filter it to remove crud
(mostly rust) and chlorine. I guess that won't work for you, because you
are concerned about deposits in your kettle -- but they should be able
to be removed with vinegar.

I think that there are under-sink water-filtration systems that
incorporate reverse osmosis as well. Maybe one of those would work for
your drinking/coffee-making water.

Perce

[Duesenberg]

I pay $4.88 CDN plus sales tax for a 20 lb bag at Walmart or one of the
local grocery stores

[Duesenberg]

It may be it may not be? I was hoping he'd tell me the business though.
I just wanted to know what they used the water for, cleaning or
brewing beer or whatever. :)

[dadiOH]

Arklin K. wrote:
> Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
> company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
> water softener system in my garage.
> http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf
>

> Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
> electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.
>

> Here is a picture of the 'crud' on my garden hose:
> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg
>

> The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he
> tested a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he
> says makes it 30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is
> about the 200 ppm calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well
> water at.
>
> He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is
> hard, so, he said, mine is super hard.
>
> He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
> water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
> dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.
>
> The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
> kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of
> use. I also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to
> chunks of the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the
> super hot bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).
>
> While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
> less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?

Yes you can. For about $600-$900 plus installation. If you can cut and
join pipes you can DIY.

Get one with a Fleck valve.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[dadiOH]

Arklin K. wrote:

> On Thu, 17 May 2012 14:02:09 -0700, Dottie wrote:
>
>> don't expect the water softener to stop your problem.
>

> Interesting. The salesman said that it would take the calcium down to
> zero grains and that every 600 gallons it would replenish itself.
>
> He said the only thing I'd need to do is put fifteen pounds or so of
> salt into the brine tank twice a year (for the reflush every 600
> gallons).
>
> He said the family uses about 75 gallons per person so that's why
> there were two tanks.
>
>> And my water softener -
>> from Home Depot - was installed by my late husband.
>
> From what I can gather, there is the existing pipe going into the
> tank, plus a bypass valve to bypass the system for repairs plus the
> system itself.
>
> Since the system doesn't need electricity, all it needs is plumbing -
> which I can do, unless there's something special needed.
>
> Now to find an equivalent water softener that can handle 14 grains of
> calcium (is that really a lot like the guy said ... or just normal)?

Read these...
http://www.apswater.com/how_to_select_a_water_softener.asp

http://www.apswater.com/Water_Softener_Calculator.asp?people=2&bathrooms=1&showerflow=2.5&grainshard=10&iron=5&perperson=80

[dadiOH]

You probably never will hear from them. That's because many water softener
"companies" are independent distributers...they buy from the manufacturer
and sell retail at whatever price they want to set. Which is often
obscenely high. As is any future service or parts you may need from them.

As an example, my idiot ex-step father in law bought a Rainsoft when he
built his house in 1996. Paid $3000 for it, $1000 down, rest over a couple
of years. Paid another $1000 in interest. Then 3-4 years ago, he replaced
it with another Rainsoft. Actually, TWO rainsofts...one for iron, one for
softening. He didn't need the iron thing as softening will also remove the
amount of iton we have around here.

This time he paid $8500. Yes, EIGHT THOUSAND AND DOLLARS. Got a deal
though, the nice salesman took his old one in trade and knocked off 5 grand.
There is a sucker born every minute.

My advice: avoid any water softener company. Buy a unit on line or at a
local store.

[dadiOH]

Arklin K. wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2012 19:12:26 -0400, Dave M. wrote:
>> These are ion exchange devices. You'll be replacing the Calcium with
>> twice as much Sodium. Sodium is a lot more soluble but you'll still
>> have some crud build up where water dries.
>
> You're the second person to mention you replace 1 calcium with 2
> sodiums.
>
> Does the water taste salty?

The water isn't salty, it has sodium carbonate in it - very little - not
sodium chloride. There is no taste.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_carbonate

[Duesenberg]

On 5/18/2012 5:28 AM, Caesar Romano wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2012 20:54:00 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
> <ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote Re Do I need $6,000 water softener for
> 12 to 14 grains of calcium in well water?:
>
>> Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
>> company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
>> water softener system in my garage.
>> http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf
>
> This will work just as well:
> http://www.sears.com/kenmore-ultra-high-efficiency-water-softener/p-04238420000P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2
>

Sears are on the brink of bankruptcy yet again. I wouldn't trust them
for anything but a clearence sale...

Department stores and Bog box stores are poor choices for softeners but
if the OP decides to go this route, stay away from Sears because if
issues arise, you'll be far less likely to get help from them.

[Oren]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 20:54:00 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
<ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote:

>Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
>company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
>water softener system in my garage.

I would RUN away at that price, for any water softener....

I use a Fleck (digital) control valve that I bought online for
~$450.00 shipped. New valve, new brine tank and new resin and tank.

The plumbing was already in place so it was a couple hours to install
it myself. You will need a drain back into the city sewer as the
discharge will kill your lawn and plants.

Check your local water utility on their web site. Mine posts annual
water reports, so check yours.

This person (Gary Slusser) used to post in AHR. He was in the
business, but has since retired. His web site still has plenty of
information. See his sizing chart... calculator... Read about the
various softeners.

<http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/>

He indicates the "Clack WS-1 CS version is the BEST DIYer control
valve on the market..." but you cannot buy it online. Go through a
local distributor for purchase.
....

The Clack WS-1 CS version control valve.

The best DIY softener control on the market. Period.

Variable Reserve and Soft Water Brine Refill.

Plus you can replace any or ALL its parts in 5-15 minutes.

All parts are o-ring sealed and come off with either a nut or a
retainer clip/pin, including the meter turbine wheel. The turbine
wheel comes out of the side of the outlet, so no more removing the
control valve and resin tank from the by-pass valve and reaching up
into the outlet with long nosed pliers to get the turbine wheel out!
To my knowledge no other control valve has that feature.

Spec Sheet

<http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/clackws-1.htm>





Soft water is not good for the pool or the garden.

[Don Phillipson]

"Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote in message
news:jp3oh8$n4a$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> The guy tested my water at 12 to 14 grains of Calcium (he said he tested
> a neighbor at 25 grains plus half a grain of iron which he says makes it
> 30 grains). He said a grain is 17 ppm so 14 grains is about the 200 ppm
> calcium hardness that Leslie's Pool tested the well water at.
>
> He said up to 3 grains is soft, 6 grains is medium and 9 grains is hard,
> so, he said, mine is super hard.
>
> He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
> water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
> dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars.
>
> The only things I 'see' are the pool has Calcium on the walls, and the
> kitchen kettle gets a white coating on the bottom after a week of use. I
> also hear the hot water tank bubbling (which he says is due to chunks of
> the foot-thick coating cracking and then the water hits the super hot
> bottom of the hot water heater and turns into steam).
>
> While these are not good things, can't I get a home water softener for
> less (much less?) than six thousand bucks installed?

Considerations:
1. Hard water makes much better tea and coffee. Of course you
need to wash the pots more often (and some people say they do
not taste the difference.
2. Well water here was measured at 1200 ppm calcium (at the
pool store, where they said it was the highest within memory,
although ground water hereabouts is known to be highly mineralized.
The water treatment vendor who took samples away (when his
kit failed to diagnose adequately on the spot) never returned.
3. So we never installed filtration and do not regret it. The pool
requires a careful chemical regimen to rebalance, but is clean
and clear. Washing machines are cleaned periodically using
an Iron Remover chemical sold by the Home Hardware chain.
Kettles are cleaned every 3 or 4 weeks using vinegar.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[homer]

He sized it by more than just the pipe size. He also sized it per
your water hardness. The internal gear set is different for different
water hardness. So if you are going to install it yourself, you have
to ensure they ship you one with the proper gearset in it.

Mine uses a #4 gear set.

The one thing I dont like about my Kinetico is that it just plain
doesnt run with an RO unit. The water flow rate is too low to turn
the gears.

I have an aquarium and generate about 50 gallons of RO water a week
for use in it. The RO unit has about a 4 to 1 waste water ratio, so
its using about 200 gallons to make those 50 gals.

The softener is always needing a manual cycle because the RO unit just
doesnt get the water flowing fast enough to turn the timing gears.

The Kinetico is actually a very nice unit. And of all the other
brands I've ever owned, it is the most miserly with salt usage of them
all. So the salesman may be correct with his salt estimates.

Mine's about 13 years old. Back in '99 it only cost $2000 to install.

[chaniarts]

On 5/17/2012 9:55 PM, Arklin K. wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:54:35 -0400, Duesenberg wrote:
>> I would never buy a softner from a big box store or sears. Do your
>> reasearch, many of them are poorly built with poor quality valves.
>
> The salesman told me that the ones at Costco and Sears are membrane
> filters and he said that, at 12 to 14 grains, they would get clogged in
> months.
>
> I don't know if that's true or not though ...
>

he's mixing up r/o and softeners, knowing that you don't know any better.

yes, you can't use an r/o in place of a whole house softener, but they
do similar things. the r/o will filter out a lot more 'stuff' than a
softener though.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 04:34:17 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:24:01 -0400, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>
>> A softener replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, one for two. If
>> water is let to stand, sodium will be left (instead of calcium), causing
>> spots.
>
>Wow. He did NOT mention that!
>
>He gave me a litany of the bad things that were happening due to the
>calcium, from:
>- spots on dishes
>- film on shower stalls
>- clogged pipes
>- clogged faucets
>- crusty kitchen kettles
>- less efficient water heater due to a foot of calcium
>- less efficient laundry soap & fabric softener
>- better tasting water
>
>Of all those, which would replacing calcium-water with sodium-water
>actually solve?

It'll probably help with all of them but it's not perfect. If you let a water
drop dry, it will leave a spot.

I bet he didn't mention that you'll be ingesting more sodium, either.

>BTW, about the only ones I care about are the kitchen kettle, the pipes,
>and the water heater.

You shouldn't have any problem with them. Sodium (salt) dissolves readily in
water.

...but... How about your pipes? ;-)

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 07:28:40 -0400, Duesenberg <a...@123.com> wrote:

>On 5/17/2012 11:52 PM, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 May 2012 23:36:19 -0400, Duesenberg<a...@123.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> 5000 gallons a day. Properly sized, it is not a big deal.
>>>
>>> 5000 gallons a day??
>>
>> You think 5000 gallons is a lot for a decent sized business?
>
>
>It may be it may not be? I was hoping he'd tell me the business though.

What business is it of yours?

> I just wanted to know what they used the water for, cleaning or
>brewing beer or whatever. :)

How about simply flushing toilets?

[micky]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:24:01 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>
>
>It's more than normal, since most city water is already treated but it's not a
>"lot" for a well. Thirty or even forty grains is a lot, but not unheard of.
>I few years ago, we lived in an apartment where the calcium came out as rocks.
>*THAT* was hard water.

I'll say.

[micky]

On Sat, 19 May 2012 00:48:05 -0400, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 May 2012 04:34:17 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:24:01 -0400, k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
>>
>>> A softener replaces calcium ions with sodium ions, one for two. If
>>> water is let to stand, sodium will be left (instead of calcium), causing
>>> spots.
>>
>>Wow. He did NOT mention that!
>>
>>He gave me a litany of the bad things that were happening due to the
>>calcium, from:
>>- spots on dishes
>>- film on shower stalls
>>- clogged pipes
>>- clogged faucets
>>- crusty kitchen kettles
>>- less efficient water heater due to a foot of calcium
>>- less efficient laundry soap & fabric softener
>>- better tasting water
>>
>>Of all those, which would replacing calcium-water with sodium-water
>>actually solve?
>
>It'll probably help with all of them but it's not perfect. If you let a water
>drop dry, it will leave a spot.
>
>I bet he didn't mention that you'll be ingesting more sodium, either.

How does that work? Would he be getting more sodium than more people
get from their home water? More than I get drinking city water,
which is not hard to begin with iiuc, which comes entirely from
reservoirs, fed by rain which goes directly, or which seeps through
the ground, into the streams that feed the reservoirs.

Or only more sodium than he's getting now.

[micky]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 22:00:28 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>You copied that off a Jay Leno routine?

I don't think so.

I stopped watching his first 15 minutes about 3 years ago when he
increased his vulgarity. It wasn't gradual afaict, but a decision
to say things that previously he wouldn't have said.

So now I only watch the second 15 minutes and usually only Headlines,
which is almost always on Monday.

I don't remember hearing it from him more than 3 years ago either.
At most I only watched sometimes.

I think I thought of it on my own. In person, I'm a very funny guy.
Really.

I was in the hospital for 2 days about a month ago, and one nurse
started laughing as soon as she entered my room, before I said
anything.. I asked why. She said, I know you're going to be funny.


>Christopher A. Young
>Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
>.
>
>"micky" <NONONO...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>news:sfabr7h7r2lfmqu51...@4ax.com...
>>* Always get three or four quotes, from three or four companies.
>
>It's a good thing you mentioned that. I got estimates once. The guy
>said $1600. I said, Really? He said, Yup. I said, Are you sure?
>He said Yes. So I figured I had 3 estimates and that should be
>enough.
>
>
>

[micky]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 04:48:00 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
<ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote:

>
>We discussed that. The salesman said he'd tie the softener to the input
>AT the house. He said most pools are filled from the irrigation system
>which is NOT tied to the house (he said).
>
>I didn't design the house so I don't know but we could test it by hitting
>the shutoff valve inside the house, he told me.

"We"? Do that tomorrow. Without him.

[micky]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 06:22:11 -0400, "Percival P. Cassidy"
<Nob...@NotMyISP.net> wrote:

>On 05/18/12 12:52 am, Arklin K. wrote:
>
>>> don't know how much of our water hardness is due to calcium and how
>>> much is due to other minerals, but ISTR that our "total hardness" is
>>> about 150ppm. Whatever the cause of our hardness, a WaterBoss softener
>>> costing less than $400 a few years ago, that I installed myself, seems
>>> to take care of everything. Uses a $4 bag of salt every few months.
>>
>> I didn't know what ISTR meant so I googled it.
>> I Seem To Recall ...
>>
>> The salesman told me to divide by 17 to convert so, in your case, 150 ppm
>> divided by 17 = about 9 grains of 'hardness'.
>>
>> I, like you, have no idea if that's calcium or a mixture but I certainly
>> see pure white stuff as in this picture of my garden hose:
>> http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/8281448/640/8281448.jpg
>>
>> I "assume" that's calcium. The salesman said it was calcium. But he only
>> did one drop test which turned the water from red to blue in 12 to 14
>> drops where he said every drop was 1 grain of calcium.
>
>I would first get the water tested somewhere else -- preferably not by
>someone who wants to sell you something.

I was thinking that too. For one thing, there are probably standard
sized drops and small drops. Or easier yet, he could have diluted
whatever he's dropping into the water, so the drops could be standard
size.

I'm not saying he did those things, but like you say, he is trying to
sell him something. The OP needs al test by someone who isnt'.

[Robert Macy]

Glad you mentioned your 'sucess' at leaving well enough alone.

EVERYBODY talks about saving their hot water heater. I thought so too
until...

In AZ well water water [approx 650 feet down] is extremely hard.
Within 4 months of moving into new construction, never occupied home
our Bradford electric failed! My first thoughts were @#$#@#$% well
water just took that thing out. Upon calling Bradford customer service
[very easy to reach, very knowledgeable] I was told 'don't mess with a
water softener, our heaters are designed to work WITH hard water and
if you use soft water, it takes a toll on them. It'll hurt them'

Wow, THAT from the people who MAKE hot water heaters!

I'm glad softeners cost a lot, are water hogs, and do untold
environmental damage. Unless you know of one that works differently.
Can't afford distillation.


So, now I just replace the heating element(s) every year [a cheap
nuisance maintenance job] and live with the water the way it is. It
DOES make good coffee. where we were before the city supplied water
made the coffee smell like fish and produced some kind of solid semi-
floating scuzz all over the inside of pot and cups.

Just a note, here in AZ the well water is supposed to be hard, leaves
white crust everywhere, but rinsing while showering it FEELS softer
than water we used to be in [city water deemed fairly soft] takes
forever to rinse soap off, like when you're staying at a hotel with
soft water and can never rinse off that soapy feeling.


Has anybody else got feedback from hot water heater manufacturers of
repute [like Bradford] that claim their product is hurt by softeners?

[h]

"Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote in message
news:jp3oh8$n4a$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
> company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
> water softener system in my garage.

A few years ago we replaced our ultra-expensive Kinetico softener with a
Fleck for about $350. The Fleck cost $50 to install (the plumber was already
there to run pipes to the new bathroom) and it works better than the
Kinetico. The water is softer and the softener is nearly silent, even while
re-charging. The Kinetico was really loud. I would never spend that much
again and I will never buy anything from Kinetico. Of course, this is just
one woman's opinion. YMMV

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sat, 19 May 2012 03:55:05 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
<robert...@gmail.com> wrote:



>
>In AZ well water water [approx 650 feet down] is extremely hard.
>Within 4 months of moving into new construction, never occupied home
>our Bradford electric failed! My first thoughts were @#$#@#$% well
>water just took that thing out. Upon calling Bradford customer service
>[very easy to reach, very knowledgeable] I was told 'don't mess with a
>water softener, our heaters are designed to work WITH hard water and
>if you use soft water, it takes a toll on them. It'll hurt them'
>
>Wow, THAT from the people who MAKE hot water heaters!

Never heard of that.

>Just a note, here in AZ the well water is supposed to be hard, leaves
>white crust everywhere, but rinsing while showering it FEELS softer
>than water we used to be in [city water deemed fairly soft] takes
>forever to rinse soap off, like when you're staying at a hotel with
>soft water and can never rinse off that soapy feeling.
>

You did rinse the soap off. That is what your skin feels like when
you don't put a lot of minerals on it. First time you've been so
clean.

Many hotels though, are changing the way they do things. Water is
either hard or soft. Instead of making the water soft, they are
reducing the amount of hardness. It is a cost savings for them and
people unfamiliar with soft water don't get that smooth feel.

[Oren]

On Sat, 19 May 2012 10:12:54 -0400, "h" <tmc...@searchmachine.com>
wrote:

>A few years ago we replaced our ultra-expensive Kinetico softener with a
>Fleck for about $350. The Fleck cost $50 to install (the plumber was already
>there to run pipes to the new bathroom) and it works better than the
>Kinetico. The water is softer and the softener is nearly silent, even while
>re-charging. The Kinetico was really loud. I would never spend that much
>again and I will never buy anything from Kinetico. Of course, this is just
>one woman's opinion. YMMV

A person I know used to work in an office of Kinetico. She had
negative things to say, but I don't know her motive for her opinion.

"high pressure", "boiler room operation" " made for few dollars and
sold for thousands" or words like that...

Fleck (digital) is good. I've had several in different homes.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sat, 19 May 2012 10:12:54 -0400, "h" <tmc...@searchmachine.com>
wrote:


>

>A few years ago we replaced our ultra-expensive Kinetico softener with a
>Fleck for about $350. The Fleck cost $50 to install (the plumber was already
>there to run pipes to the new bathroom) and it works better than the
>Kinetico. The water is softer and the softener is nearly silent, even while
>re-charging. The Kinetico was really loud. I would never spend that much
>again and I will never buy anything from Kinetico. Of course, this is just
>one woman's opinion. YMMV
>

Good choice. Fleck is one of the best valves around for softeners.

[Oren]

On Sat, 19 May 2012 11:25:04 -0400, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

> Fleck is one of the best valves around for softeners.

Popular in the Mojave Desert.

Beats hell out of spending 6 grand...

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

A softener replaces one calcium atom with two sodium atoms. That's just what
it does.

>Would he be getting more sodium than more people
>get from their home water?

More than unsoftened water, yes. Too much, well, that depends on the people
and the water (how hard).

>More than I get drinking city water, which is not hard to begin with iiuc,
>which comes entirely from reservoirs, fed by rain which goes directly, or
>which seeps through the ground, into the streams that feed the reservoirs.

Impossible to know.

>Or only more sodium than he's getting now.

Obviously more than he's getting now. See above.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

I had to remove the aerators on all the faucets every couple of weeks and
clean them out. The calcium looked like fine sand. The water spots were
*bad*. We only lived there for nine months but it was "interesting".

[Gomba]

"Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote in message
news:jp3oh8$n4a$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
> company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
> water softener system in my garage.

> http://www.kinetico.com/assets/pdf/PDS_KineticoSeries_Softeners.pdf
>
> Kinetico model 2060 home water system (two tanks + a brine tank, no
> electricity, self cleaning) $600 installation + $5400 including tax.

There used to be a fella who posted here, by the name of Gary Slusser. A
very knowledgeable guy in the water treatment industry.

Personally, I wouldn't spend that kind of money, you're getting hosed! I
bought a softener through Gary a couple years back, he is no longer in
business, retired, done. I spent a total of almost $800, with a Clack
valve, shipped to the door. Installed it myself with about $50 worth of
copper & shut offs.

Here's Gary's site with forums, you'll do yourself a huge favor by visiting
& reading. He also has charts for properly sizing your softener.
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/

I'd suggest sizing your own softener using his charts, visit a real lumber
yard, some carry softeners you won't find at Sears or the big box stores.
The ones around here sell the Fleck valve, which my understanding is also a
good valve. I do believe you'll get away with paying under a grand, and
won't have the tinker toy products sold by box stores.

[dadiOH]

Robert Macy wrote:
> Just a note, here in AZ the well water is supposed to be hard, leaves
> white crust everywhere, but rinsing while showering it FEELS softer
> than water we used to be in [city water deemed fairly soft] takes
> forever to rinse soap off, like when you're staying at a hotel with
> soft water and can never rinse off that soapy feeling.

A softwater salesman will tell you that the slippery feeling comes from your
body's natural oils, a benefit of the soft water. He will also tell you
that softwater makes your soap more effective. So how come the more
effective soap didn't remove those "natural body oils"? That's what
soap/detergent does...emulsify oil so you can get rid of it. IOW, the
salesman is full of it.

One possibility for the slimy feeling is that you DO need to use less soap
with soft water. However, regardless of how much soap you use, the water
should easily remove it, IMO.

Another possibility is that the calcium carbonate that was in your water has
been replaced with sodium carbonate. Both are bases but sodium carbonate
has a considerably higher pH. Bases feel slippery. Moreover, if one
calcium ion has been replaced with two sodium ions - as others in this
thread say - then the amount of sodium carbonate is double the original
amount of calcium carbonate. Your water now has a higher pH than
previously.

I can't say (because I don't know) that the higher pH hinders the soap's
effectiveness at emulsification but I do know that one aid to that process -
in cooking, at least - is a mild acid.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 10:11:34 -0400, "dadiOH" <dad...@invalid.com>
wrote:

>
>A softwater salesman will tell you that the slippery feeling comes from your
>body's natural oils, a benefit of the soft water. He will also tell you
>that softwater makes your soap more effective. So how come the more
>effective soap didn't remove those "natural body oils"? That's what
>soap/detergent does...emulsify oil so you can get rid of it. IOW, the
>salesman is full of it.
>
>One possibility for the slimy feeling is that you DO need to use less soap
>with soft water. However, regardless of how much soap you use, the water
>should easily remove it, IMO.

He's half right. Water is a lubricant too. Without the mineral your
skin does feel slippery when wet. I don't know about oils though, as
you point out.

[Robert Macy]

If rinsing is NOT complete, and NEVER was, skin felt tight, drawn,
itchy, so definitely thought something got left.

Ah HA! sodium carbonate, Yes that would explain why the water feels
slick, plus explain why the skin doesn't feel good when dry - thought
it was always poor rinsing, may not have been! May be skin's reaction
to different ph. Plus, it is my understanding that one has to be very
careful about shifting around the skin's ph; else fungus infection, or
all kinds of ills can occur.

Thanks, one more reason to not spring for a water softener!

[bob haller]

My dad has a softener I DONT like that slimey feel right after
showering!

[dadiOH]

> If rinsing is NOT complete, and NEVER was, skin felt tight, drawn,
> itchy, so definitely thought something got left.
>
> Ah HA! sodium carbonate, Yes that would explain why the water feels
> slick, plus explain why the skin doesn't feel good when dry - thought
> it was always poor rinsing, may not have been! May be skin's reaction
> to different ph. Plus, it is my understanding that one has to be very
> careful about shifting around the skin's ph; else fungus infection, or
> all kinds of ills can occur.
>
> Thanks, one more reason to not spring for a water softener!

Depends on how hard the water is. All in all, I prefer a softener to soap
scum.

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Right. At least one feels clean when getting out of the shower.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Thu, 17 May 2012 20:54:00 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
<ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote:

>Following up on the crud on my pool walls, I called a water softener
>company over who arrived today to give me a $6,000 quote to put in a
>water softener system in my garage.
>h

There's a sucker born every minute. They must believe you're one of
them........ After you hand over your 6 grand, you'll prove them
correct!

[Arklin K.]

> Get one with a Fleck valve.

I couldn't find "fleck valve" on Wikipedia - but the company has an FAQ:
http://www.fleckvalves.com/FAQ.htm

Which is better?

Totally hydraulic for regeneration or the fleck type with an electric
timer for regeneration?

[Arklin K.]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 10:08:24 -0400, Don Phillipson wrote:

> Kettles are cleaned every 3 or 4 weeks using vinegar.

Same with me!

[Arklin K.]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 10:22:46 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> Without the mineral your skin does feel slippery when wet. I don't know
> about oils though, as you point out.

I must admit, with 12 to 14ppm calcium hardness in my well water, I've
never noticed any 'problem' with the way my water rinses off soap in the
shower.

[Arklin K.]

On Fri, 18 May 2012 07:15:35 -0700, Oren wrote:

> I use a Fleck (digital) control valve that I bought online for ~$450.00
> shipped. New valve, new brine tank and new resin and tank.

You're the second to recommend the Fleck. The salesman for the Kinetico
extolled the virtues of 100% hydraulic - but I like the idea of having
the programmed control too.

> You will need a drain back into the city sewer as the discharge
> will kill your lawn and plants.

I have a well. No sewer. Just septic. But it's OK to spill as I can put
it over the leach field which has nothing growing over it.

> Check your local water utility on their web site. Mine posts annual
> water reports, so check yours.

There is no water or sewer utility. It's well and septic. Nobody
regulates it (as far as I know).

> Read about the various softeners.
> http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com

I like that they have a DIY focus!
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/clackws-1.htm

[Arklin K.]

On Sat, 19 May 2012 10:12:54 -0400, h wrote:

> A few years ago we replaced our ultra-expensive Kinetico softener with a
> Fleck for about $350.

Interesting. I wonder which works better since you had both?

> The Fleck ... works better than the Kinetico.

Ah!

> The Kinetico was really loud. I would never
> spend that much again and I will never buy anything from Kinetico.

Interesting. The salesman didn't mention the noise!

[Arklin K.]

On Sat, 19 May 2012 08:16:41 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Fleck (digital) is good. I've had several in different homes.

So it looks like it's Fleck vs Kinetico on the DIY front. ..

[Arklin K.]

On Sun, 20 May 2012 18:59:52 -0500, tangerine3 wrote:

> There's a sucker born every minute. They must believe you're one of
> them........ After you hand over your 6 grand, you'll prove them
> correct!

Well, I'm trying 'not' to be a sucker - which is why I'm asking here.

I first read the suggested web site:
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/sizing.php

That calculator said I needed 27K Total Grains of Capacity for
approximately once per week regeneration with a 24 hr reserve (3,400
daily grains of capacity).

It further said 1.5 is the minimum cubic foot size of softener required
for your capacity needs.

Pounds of salt Per Cubic Foot of Resin = 5
Salt dose (total lbs) = 8
Salt Dose Capacity = 27,300
Grains of Capacity PER lb of salt (salt efficiency) = 3,413
Days between regenerations = 8
Gallons between regenerations = 1,950

Reading about the softener sizing chart:
http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm

I calculated that my water flow is about 60 gallons per minute at about
70 psi (the psi is from the gauge on the pressure tank back at the
wellhouse so it will be lower at the faucet).

This all comes up with:
1.5 cuft using a 6 lb PER cuft (9lb) salt dose generates 30,000 grains
(3,333 grains/lb).

Looks like about $700 not including installation & piping.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

Well, lets first find out how long you have lived there. If it's been
awhile, have you had any of the problems that guy told you?

You said:
"He provided a litany of bad things that will happen, from bubbling hot
water tanks with a foot of calcium on the bottom to clogged pipes and
dirty shower stalls, spotty dishes, dirty clothes, and dirty cars."

That sounds to me like typical scare tactics, which he tells everyone in
order to make a sale.

Ok, you can get crud in your hot water tank, which is why you should
drain it regularly. Yea, pipes clog, and that depends a lot on the type
of pipes you have, with galvanized steel being the worst to clog, copper
is much better, and plastics clog the least.

However, I know someone on a city water system who had a whole hot water
tank full of calcium crud. The repalcement of that 15 to 20 year old
tank cost around $200 for the tank, $40 for parts, and $120 labor. ($360
total). MUCH LESS THAN $6000, (and that tank was old and due to be
replaced).

If I recall, you are on a well and septic. Dump that salt water down
your septic, and the tank will be shot in a few years. A new septic
will cost another $6000 or more. Then there are the health risks. You
NEED calcium in water for health. Softened water contains sodium
(salt). Bad for the health. You may as well add a 3rd faucet in the
kitchen for unsoftened water to drink.

If you dont put that salt water in your septic, you will cause
environmental damage whereever it's dumped. Just picture yourself
dumping 2 or 3 50 lb bags of rock salt in your yard every couple weeks.
Have you noticed what salt does to car bodies in areas where they salt
the roads in winter? Now think of that giant pile of salt in your yard.
Even 4 bags a month, is 2,400 lbs per year. (over a ton).

You said your only problem is your pool. Are you going to soften all
the water entering your pool? You'll need one hell of a big system for
that, if the pool is large.

Although I'm retired, I worked as a plumber for years.....

I know all about the water softening biz. There are a lot of water
softeners in use that dont need to be there. But they make big money
for the softener companies.

OK. for the good part.....
You'll be saving some shampoo and laundry soap with soft water, and get
better suds. That may save you $20 in a year. You car and dishes wont
have spots (I could cares less). Your water heater might last an extra
year or two. That could save you $25 in the course of time. And you
wont have that nasty calcium in your garden hose, which is hurting
nothing. But you may have to replace your shower head more often.

So, yea, you may save $100 a year. Of course the salt is $9 a bag, and
at a minimum of 50 bags a year, thats $450. Plus costly septic damage,
or environmental yard damage. Then there's the cost of medical care
when you become ill from the sodium water and lack of calcium which will
have to be replaced by buying calcium tablets. Not to mention the
initial cost of $6000, or $700 if you buy the materials, plus labor.

People have been drinking natural water since the beginning of time.
Enjoy it!!!!

I have a well, and it has iron and calcium, and other minerals, and it
tastes great. I dont do anything to it.

If anything, I think you need to buy some better filters or equipment
for your pool, but I wont get into that, since I know nothing about
pools. I'd much rather swim in a river of lake, which is not loaded
with chlorine and chemicals, but probably has calcium and minerals....

If I was you, I'd investigate better (whatever) for your pool, spend
some of that $6 on the pool, save $500 of that money for eventual water
heater and shower head replacements, and use the rest of the money for a
nice vacation.

[Norm A. Brams]

Lowes is currently selling the
Whirlpool 40000-Grain Water Softener for $497.

Mine is about 6 years old and I've not had any problems with it.

[dadiOH]

Beats me. I can see a minor advantage to basing regeneration on the amount
of water actually used but have no idea as to what could go out of whack in
the metering. All in all, I like Thoreau's axiom of, "Simplify, simplify".

[Oren]

Mine is the Fleck 5600SE

Solid state microprocessor with LED display. Time of day, Remaining
capacity, Regeneration cycle in process.

Compact turbine meter downflow or upflow regeneration cycles.

Choose from 3 modes of operation: immediate meter regeneration,
delayed meter regeneration, or delayed time clock regeneration.

NOVRAM valve status and memory backup.

Continuous flow rate if 20 gpm.

Backwash capacity handles tanks up to 12" diameter for softner
applications, 10" for filter applications

<http://www.fleckvalves.com/Residential/ResidentialProducts/5600Residential/5600SEValve.htm>

It is set to re-gen every 800 gallons or so of water usage. No
problems experienced with this valve.

[Arklin K.]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 07:00:12 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Mine is the Fleck 5600SE

> It is set to re-gen every 800 gallons or so of water usage.

So does that mean the Fleck 5600SE regenerates on gallons or on time?

That is, does it assume, say, 60 gallons/day/person and then regenerate
when that calculation reaches 800 gallons (whether or not 800 gallons
were actually used) ... or does it actually count gallons?

I don't know if it matters - but I'm trying to figure this new Fleck
thing out.

Thanks,

[Arklin K.]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 03:24:16 -0500, tangerine3 wrote:

> have you had any of the problems that guy told you?

The 'only' problems I've had are the white stuff in the hose and the
bubbling of the hot water heater and the white stuff on the bottom of the
kitchen pot and the specks of 'sand' on the bottom of cups where water is
left in them to sit.

None of those really bother me (except maybe if I'm ruining my hot water
heater - although I read the post that said calcium is good for the hot
water heater).

Plus the pool has white sandy stuff on it but pool water needs calcium.
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/8229592/640/8229592.jpg

> The repalcement of that 15 to 20 year old
> tank cost around $200 for the tank, $40 for parts, and $120 labor. ($360
> total). MUCH LESS THAN $6000

Agreed. Out here, you can't get a decent gas hot water tank for less than
about $600 to $800 or so (IIRC) as I replaced one a few years back
(bought the best I could find at OSH which was the major cost since I did
it myself - and had to also pay for the permit which ended up being a
waste of money).

This house has two of them hooked in series - so it's twice that if they
fail. I see I should be emptying them yearly! I never touched them!

> Dump that salt water down
> your septic, and the tank will be shot in a few years.

The salesman said I should just dump it outside with a long hose.

> If you dont put that salt water in your septic, you will cause
> environmental damage whereever it's dumped. Just picture yourself
> dumping 2 or 3 50 lb bags of rock salt in your yard every couple weeks.

Hmmm... ok. This is not a good thing, I agree.

> You said your only problem is your pool. Are you going to soften all
> the water entering your pool?

While the pool is a problem, the salesman said we don't soften pool water
which is filled from the outside hoses.

> So, yea, you may save $100 a year. Of course the salt is $9 a bag, and
> at a minimum of 50 bags a year, thats $450. Plus costly septic damage,
> or environmental yard damage.

You make a good case AGAINST water softeners. Very good case! I
appreciate the other side of the story. Very much so!

[Arklin K.]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 05:57:47 -0400, Norm A. Brams wrote:

> Whirlpool 40000-Grain Water Softener for $497.

Looks nice:
http://tinyurl.com/8425b4k

40000-Grain Water Softener

Ideal for households of 1-5 people
Maximum water hardness of 125 gpg
Clear water (ferrous) iron removal of 10 ppm
Demand initiated regeneration with salt saving technology
Super high flow rate - up to 1-1/4" super high flow valve
Only recharges when necessary, saving salt and water
Control display features: demand initiated regeneration,
water flow indicator and low salt indicator
Space saving single tank design
Warranty: 1-year full parts and labor, 3-year limited electronics,
10-year limited tanks

[Oren]

Types of regeneration:

Time Clock Delayed
Meter Delayed
Meter Immediate

Mine is for 75 gallons per day per person. It re-gens at 800 gallons,
two people.

BTW - use salt crystals, instead of pellets. No more salt dams in the
bottom of the brine tank. I pay ~$4.50 or so for salt. Not $9.00 as
mentioned elsewhere.

<http://www.fleckvalves.com/pdfs/se.pdf>

[Oren]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 15:54:23 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
<ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote:

>
>> So, yea, you may save $100 a year. Of course the salt is $9 a bag, and
>> at a minimum of 50 bags a year, thats $450. Plus costly septic damage,
>> or environmental yard damage.
>
>You make a good case AGAINST water softeners. Very good case! I
>appreciate the other side of the story. Very much so!

... but, but ... a softener can reduce damage to appliances (washer,
dishwasher, ice maker, etc....

A former neighbor had no softener -- guess what he spent money on...

[Arklin K.]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 09:09:14 -0700, Oren wrote:

> Time Clock Delayed
> Meter Delayed
> Meter Immediate

Ah. I see. I'd put the Fleck valve on "Meter Immediate" and it would
regenerate at 800 gallons using the second tank during that time.

[Oren]

What "second tank"? As to re-gen types, speak to someone with a higher
pay-grade than myself :-\

[Arklin K.]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 11:01:52 -0700, Oren wrote:

> What "second tank"? As to re-gen types, speak to someone with a higher
> pay-grade than myself :-\

Oh. OK. I guess it regenerates from one tank at night when nobody is
using the water.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 15:54:23 +0000 (UTC), "Arklin K."
<ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote:

>The 'only' problems I've had are the white stuff in the hose and the
>bubbling of the hot water heater and the white stuff on the bottom of the
>kitchen pot and the specks of 'sand' on the bottom of cups where water is
>left in them to sit.
>

If you're getting specks of sand, you might have the pump too low in the
well (too close to the bottom). This could be due to poor installation,
or the well might be accumulating sand (filling up) due to the way the
ground water is entering it. For example, my well is 300 ft deep, the
pump is at 280 ft. If you're pump is only a few feet from the bottom,
you will be sucking sand. BAD FOR THE PUMP TOO!

I'd have the well inspected by a professional well company before doing
anything else. If you have any data about the well from when the pump
was installed, it should say the depth. Normally they write this on the
manual that came with the pump and give it to the homeowner. If you
know that, you can actually measure the well depth with a weight
attached to a string.

>None of those really bother me (except maybe if I'm ruining my hot water
>heater - although I read the post that said calcium is good for the hot
>water heater).
>
>Plus the pool has white sandy stuff on it but pool water needs calcium.
> http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/8229592/640/8229592.jpg

Seeing the picture, I sure would not worry about that... If anything, it
provides a slip free surface. You'd be stepping on sand in a lake!!!

>
>> The repalcement of that 15 to 20 year old
>> tank cost around $200 for the tank, $40 for parts, and $120 labor. ($360
>> total). MUCH LESS THAN $6000
>
>Agreed. Out here, you can't get a decent gas hot water tank for less than
>about $600 to $800 or so (IIRC) as I replaced one a few years back
>(bought the best I could find at OSH which was the major cost since I did
>it myself - and had to also pay for the permit which ended up being a
>waste of money).
>
>This house has two of them hooked in series - so it's twice that if they
>fail. I see I should be emptying them yearly! I never touched them!

In your case, I'd empty and flush them TWICE a year or more often. You
must use a lot of hot water to need two tanks. Did you say you're in
Florida? Or did I confuse this with another post on here? If you are
in FL, you should rig up a Solar Pre-heater for your hot water.
Basically a storage tank painted black and placed in the sun, with
piping from the cold water to the input of the hot water tank(s).

I'm in a northern climate and I made one. Saved a lot of money in fuel.
Except up here I have to constantly be on alert in late fall and early
spring, or the pipes freeze during cold snaps. And of course it cant be
used in winter. You can buy commercial units, or you cna make them from
odds and ends. I built mine from recycled materials. Cost me less than
$100.

Basically it's a flat black tank (BBQ grill paint), placed inside of a
glass enclosure (2 old storm windows in the shape of a V, with plywood
ends). The rest is just piping, and a ONE WAY valve to prevent heated
water going backward into the cold water system. I have mine in the
backyard in a sunny location. It sits on the lawn on top of some
concrete blocks with plywood across them. (some people put them on their
roofs).

Note: (You want FLAT black, not glossy paint, glossy will reflect some
of the heat away).

[Oren]

Right. The only tank that has the resin.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Unless it has a second tank. Larger systems than cannot be down for
any length of time will have two tanks and switch between them as one
regenerates.

[HeyBub]

Arklin K. wrote:

[blah-blah-blah]

The answer to your question is no.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Mon, 21 May 2012 13:32:45 -0500, tange...@toyotamail.com wrote:



>>
>If you're getting specks of sand, you might have the pump too low in the
>well (too close to the bottom). This could be due to poor installation,
>or the well might be accumulating sand (filling up) due to the way the
>ground water is entering it.

We've stayed at a Villa in Italy a couple of times where there is a
lot of limestone and very had water. If you let the clear water stand
you will see solids after an hour or so.

If it is actual sand as you say, a filter should be in the line before
the softener.

[tange...@toyotamail.com]

Yep, that can happen even if the pump is not too low, if there is
incoming water ABOVE the pump (which is quite normal). After checking
on the pump, I'd suggest a filter, even without a softner. That's a
small expense compared to the softener.

[larrymo...@my-deja.com]

If you don't spend $6,000 on a water softener, then you don't really care about your family.

The only advantages I see to an expensive Kinetico are that you'll have soft water 24 hours a day, as opposed to 22 hours a day with other softeners, and the thing will work even during electrical blackouts.

Get the 2nd cheapest type of conventional softer sold by Home Depot, Sears, or Lowe's, about $400-600, which will be a demand regulated, timer delayed model. The very cheapest type of softeners don't have demand regulation.

[h]

"Arklin K." <ark...@notmyemail.com> wrote in message
news:jpdofe$jo3$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

>
> You make a good case AGAINST water softeners. Very good case! I
> appreciate the other side of the story. Very much so!

Except if the water is so hard it causes build up in pipes. We had serious
plumbing issues and spent a lot of money replacing pipes and failed washer
hoses. And, since we've had soft water our clothing lasts longer and my skin
is not dry and itchy anymore, even in the winter! I'll never go back to hard
water. Also, we have a septic tank and no issues for the last 25 years.

[Quynh Tran]

When it comes to purifying hard water, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Whether or not a $6,000 water softener is necessary depends on your individual circumstances and the extent of hardness in your well water.

The grains per gallon (GPG) of calcium present in your well will determine how difficult it will be to remove all the dissolved minerals that make up this hardness. The higher the GPG rating, the more difficult it will be for a single unit to effectively reduce or remove all the calcium from your well water. Anything under 7 GPG can usually be treated with a standard ion exchange softener without too much trouble, but anything above that can require multiple units or even something like reverse osmosis for really high levels of hardness (over 14 GPG).

So if you’re looking at 12 to 14 GPG of Calcium in your well water then you may need more than one unit. A good rule of thumb is: start off with an upper capacity filter/softener and add an extra filter/softener as needed until achieving desired results. However, just because you have 12 to 14 GPG doesn't necessarily mean you’ll need $6,000 worth of equipment - some more affordable options are available depending on your budget and needs.

Overall, when dealing with hard water meaning at least 7+GPG ions such as magnesium and calcium carbonates (calcite), sulfates etc., then indeed investing into better solutions such as multi tank systems would be prudent - but only if necessary after testing has been done properly by a certified professional from EPA approved lab(s).

Quinn
www.quinnwater.ca