Bad voltage spikes

[k...@i.don't.have.a.clue.com]

Where we live we have regular electrical outages due to a number of
problems. Last night, however, we had a new experience. It must have
been something like a voltage surge. it blew out a drive of mine, my
PC speaker system and screwed up our wireless home network pretty
good. All electricity to the house went off for a few seconds and
then turned back on. I guess the electric company had a backup system
of sorts that took over.

I did have so-called surge suppressor outlet strips to which our comps
were plugged in. They were useless against whatever it was that
happened. I'm amazed my battery backups for the computers are still
working. I'm thinking we need some kind of really strong voltage
control item on our comps and a few other things around here. Any
suggestions?

[Tony Hwang]

Hi,
Sorry to hear that. Don't you have insurance coverage for that kinda
damage? Regarding good suppressor individually or at main power entrance
point you have many choices but like anything else, case of you get what
you pay for. I moved out here from Ontario in '70. Since total power
outage altogether does not even equal 3 hour caused by grass fire in the
spring of some years ago. All our power, phone, cable are
under ground nothing over head in my neighborhood. Only steel street
lamp poles fed by under ground cable stand along the streets.

[NotMe]

<k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com> wrote in message
news:sbd2s8h6hh9464bgl...@4ax.com...

First a heads up. surge suppressor outlet strips are typically one shot one
time protection (and poor at that).

We had industrial grade (typically multiple surge) suppressor installed in
the breaker box. Again this is not 100% but much better than plug strips.

I would check with your insurance (if you saw fire and or smoke) you may
have coverage. For surge that's iffy.

Second I would try to file a claim with the power company.

Last a Ferro resonance voltage controller may help. Increases the power
consumption by~ 15% but does give a added protection for voltage surges.

We have all our computers running on heavy duty inverters using large (think
golf cart) batteries on three state float charges. Short of one *hell* of a
hard lighting strike real close we're safe.

[John Grabowski]

*Were there any lightning storms in the area at the time? You could try
calling the power company to see if they had any incidents during that time
period.

Basic protection against future events would be to install a whole house
surge protector and also to make sure that your grounding electrode system
(water pipe, ground rods, bonding jumper) has good clean, and tight
connections.

[Frank]

Been through this. Have surge protectors and battery backup on
computers. As other point out surge protectors are only good for one
shot. They will work but not protect. Usually a light goes out.
Insurance can cover big costs - I have a $500 deductible. Power company
here always claims act of god and will not pay.

[westom]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:45:08 AM UTC-4, k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com wrote:
> I'm thinking we need some kind of really strong voltage
> control item on our comps and a few other things around here.
> Any suggestions?

Those power strips did exactly what they claim to do. They protect only from transients that typically do no damage. And are so grossly undersized as to fail even on transients that are too small to damage other appliances.

Utility equipment can detect faults (ie a lightning strike). Temporarily disconnects power (ie because voltages are out of spec). And then automatically restore power a few seconds later after the fault has cleared. That would be what you observed.

Protection from such transients only works where AC wires enter the building. Nothing inside the building will or claims to protect from such anomalies. Protection from such anomalies has been routine for over 100 years. But most are, instead, educated by advertising. For example, purchase power strips that do not do that protection. But sure are profitable.

Destructive transients occur maybe once every seven years. Typically may be hundreds of thousands of joules. And are not averted by any 'box'. Understand what does the protection - what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - earth ground. Either you connected every wire inside every cable to the single point earth ground. Or that transient was inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. The adjacent protector sometimes gives that transient even more potentially destructive paths.

Even the power strip needs protection provided by earthing one 'whole house' protector. That protector (the box) is not protection. It simply connects a surge (maybe 20,000 amps) to earth. But only if the connection is low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet', no sharp wire bends, well separated from other non-grounding wires, etc).

Every facility that cannot have damage uses the 'whole house' solution. You have learned the hard way why those facilities do not waste money on adjacent magic boxes.

And finally, protectors are simple science. The 'art' of protection is earth ground. Most of your questions should be about what does the actual protection - the art of earthing.

Routine is to have direct lightning strikes. And nobody even knew a surge existed. Because even a protector does not fail. Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[willshak]

Tony Hwang wrote:
> k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com wrote:
>> Where we live we have regular electrical outages due to a number of
>> problems. Last night, however, we had a new experience. It must have
>> been something like a voltage surge. it blew out a drive of mine, my
>> PC speaker system and screwed up our wireless home network pretty
>> good. All electricity to the house went off for a few seconds and
>> then turned back on. I guess the electric company had a backup system
>> of sorts that took over.
>>
>> I did have so-called surge suppressor outlet strips to which our comps
>> were plugged in. They were useless against whatever it was that
>> happened. I'm amazed my battery backups for the computers are still
>> working. I'm thinking we need some kind of really strong voltage
>> control item on our comps and a few other things around here. Any
>> suggestions?
>>
> Hi,
> Sorry to hear that. Don't you have insurance coverage for that kinda
> damage?

The insurance of a few hundred dollars is moot.
What about all the data that could be lost?
I have an external HD connected to my computer. I only turn it on when I
back up the internal HD and then I turn it off.

Regarding good suppressor individually or at main power entrance
> point you have many choices but like anything else, case of you get what
> you pay for. I moved out here from Ontario in '70. Since total power
> outage altogether does not even equal 3 hour caused by grass fire in the
> spring of some years ago. All our power, phone, cable are
> under ground nothing over head in my neighborhood. Only steel street
> lamp poles fed by under ground cable stand along the streets.
>

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeros after @

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 8:44:08 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:45:08 AM UTC-4, k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking we need some kind of really strong voltage
>
> > control item on our comps and a few other things around here.
>
> > Any suggestions?
>
>
>
> Those power strips did exactly what they claim to do. They protect only from transients that typically do no damage.

Good grief, Tom's back folks! Mention surge protector and wham!, there
he is. Show us where plug-in surge protectors
claim to "only protect from transients that typically do no damage".
It seems to me it would be very hard to sell them if they made that
claim...... That alone should put everyone on guard that you don't
know what you're talking about

>And are so grossly undersized as to fail even on transients that are too small to damage other appliances.

That would be something, because those other appliances
all use MOVs, just like the plug-in surge protectors. The
difference is that the MOVs inside the appliance are much
smaller and can only handle smaller surges than the plug-in
protector. The other obvious difference is that each
surge degrades the MOV a bit. Which MOV would you rather
have fail? The one in the $2000 TV or the one in the $25
surge protector? And the rating of that $25 one is typically
higher than that of the ones in the TV.

>
>
>
> Utility equipment can detect faults (ie a lightning strike). Temporarily disconnects power (ie because voltages are out of spec). And then automatically restore power a few seconds later after the fault has cleared. That would be what you observed.

While lightning is the most frequent cause, you
have no way of knowing what caused this specific
event.

>
>
>
> Protection from such transients only works where AC wires enter the building. Nothing inside the building will or claims to protect from such anomalies.

The IEEE tutorial on surge protection strategies disagrees.
They clearly show plug-in type surge protectors being used
as part of a tiered protection strategy. So would all the
appliance manufacturers who almost all include some surge
protection inside the appliances they manufacture. And they
use the same components and method that the manufacturers
of plug-ins use. It's just that the MOVs they use are even
smaller than those in the plug-in.

You start with a perfectly valid premise. That a whole
house surge protector is the best first line defense.
The IEEE agrees with that and so do I. But then you go
astray by this crusade against plug-ins offering any
protection at all. There we disagree. And you fail to
recognize that not everyone can install a whole house
surge protector. Those living in a rental house, rental
apartment, etc.

Protection from such anomalies has been routine for over 100 years. But most are, instead, educated by advertising. For example, purchase power strips that do not do that protection. But sure are profitable.

Again the IEEE, among other authorities, disagrees.

>
>
>
> Destructive transients occur maybe once every seven years. Typically may be hundreds of thousands of joules. And are not averted by any 'box'.

My whole house surge protector is in a "box". Have
you actually seen one?

Understand what does the protection - what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules - earth ground. Either you connected every wire inside every cable to the single point earth ground. Or that transient was inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. The adjacent protector sometimes gives that transient even more potentially destructive paths.

The myth repeated that surge protectors are what cause
destruction.

>
>
>
> Even the power strip needs protection provided by earthing one 'whole house' protector. That protector (the box) is not protection. It simply connects a surge (maybe 20,000 amps) to earth. But only if the connection is low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet', no sharp wire bends, well separated from other non-grounding wires, etc).

A powerstrip uses MOVs. If you look inside a TV, PC,
electronic oven, etc you will almost always find an MOV.
An MOV that is smaller than those used in a plug-in surge
protector. If they are useless, incapable of any protection
because they are not directly connected to an earth ground,
are all the appliance manufacturers just dumb and wasting
their money?

>
>
>
> Every facility that cannot have damage uses the 'whole house' solution. You have learned the hard way why those facilities do not waste money on adjacent magic boxes.
>

The plug-in work by clamping all the voltages at an appliance together.
If there is a 1000V surge, all the voltages going into the PC then
rise together so there is no potential difference to cause damage.
That is why for a surge protector for a PC to be effective, anything
connected must pass through it, ie power, phone, cable.
At the same time, they provide a path for the surge to ground.

It would be interesting to know if in the case of the PC damaged,
what all it was connected to and what passed through the surge
protector.

>
> And finally, protectors are simple science. The 'art' of protection is earth ground. Most of your questions should be about what does the actual protection - the art of earthing.
>
>
>
> Routine is to have direct lightning strikes.

Nonsense. Damage that occurs as a result of surges is rarely
a direct lightning strike. It's usually lightning hitting
the electric utility somewhere nearby, eg out at the steet poles
with overhead wires.

And nobody even knew a surge existed.

If you're house took a direct lightning strike, it would most
likely be obvious.

Because even a protector does not fail. Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Which is not true either. The whole house surge protectors
also use MOVs. They are typically larger. But with each surge their
capability also degrades. It's part of the basic physics of the
devices. And over time, with enough surges, they will fail.

[Bob F]

willshak wrote:
> The insurance of a few hundred dollars is moot.
> What about all the data that could be lost?
> I have an external HD connected to my computer. I only turn it on
> when I back up the internal HD and then I turn it off.
>

Unless you unplug it, both from the computer and the power, it could still get
fried.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:kpsfad$hu1$1...@dont-email.me...

That is why I have one of the external drives that plug into the USB port.
I plug it every day or so depending on what I am doing with the computer.
It will automatically back up the internal hard drive. I then unplug it.
It colst less than $ 100 for about a 500 GB drive. You can get larger ones
now, but my hard drive is only around 200 GB.
I also keep a copy of most of my data and pic on a netbook computer.
Usually have a 32 GB thumb drive with me that also has most of the important
data on it. That way if the house goes up in smoke I will have a copy of
the pic. I used to leave it at work but have retired now.
Always good to have an off site copy of any computer data.

[The Daring Dufas]

I live in Alabamastan and we have a pretty good power company, Alabama
Power and I've had damage due to aberrations in the power at times and
on one occasion, I had a really bad power spike blow out some equipment
at my business. I had to get past the nice lady customer service rep in
order to speak with one of the engineers to explain what happened. He
agreed with me and the power company paid for my damaged gear. ^_^

TDD

[bud--]

On 6/19/2013 6:44 AM, westom wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:45:08 AM UTC-4,
k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com wrote:
>> I'm thinking we need some kind of really strong voltage
>> control item on our comps and a few other things around here.
>> Any suggestions?

Excellent information on surges and surge protection is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE (the IEEE is a major
organization of electrical and electronic engineers).
And also:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Surges%20happen!.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology

The IEEE surge guide is aimed at people with some technical background.


========================
From the description this was something more like crossed power wires.
That is not a "surge", which is, by definition, a very short event. As
JohnG wrote, ask the utility if they had an 'incident'.

> Those power strips did exactly what they claim to do. They protect
> only from transients that
> typically do no damage.

Complete nonsense.

> And are so grossly undersized as to fail even on transients that are
> too
> small to damage other appliances.

More complete nonsense.

Contrary to westom's beliefs, which he compulsively spreads all over the
internet, both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say plug-in protectors are
effective.

When using a plug-in protector all interconnected equipment needs to be
connected to the same protector. External connections, like coax, also
must go through the protector

>
> Utility equipment can detect faults (ie a lightning strike).
> Temporarily disconnects power
> (ie because voltages are out of spec). And then automatically
> restore power a few seconds later
> after the fault has cleared. That would be what you observed.

A lighting strike is not a fault.

Sounds like a "recloser", that does open on faults and may reclose
several times.

Service panel protectors are very effective against very high current
but very short duration surges. They will be rapidly burned out by the
much longer duration of a crossed power wire. See the IEEE surge guide
pages 11, 15 and 25.

The same is true of plug-in protectors. There are supposed to be
plug-in protectors that disconnect on overvoltage - I haven't seen them.
A UPS may disconnect and provide protection (and apparently they did).
(Disconnecting to protect from a surge doesn't work because a surge is
too short an event.)

The author of the NIST surge guide has written "the major cause of
[surge protector] failures is a temporary overvoltage, rather than an
unusually large surge."

>
> Destructive transients occur maybe once every seven years. Typically
> may be hundreds of
> thousands of joules. And are not averted by any 'box'.

It has been explained to westom many times that not much surge energy
can make it to a plug-in protector, and also explained why. But westom
ignores anything that does not fit his very limited beliefs on protection.

>
> Even the power strip needs protection provided by earthing one 'whole
> house' protector.

More complete nonsense.

SquareD does not make plug-in protectors, but says for their "best"
service panel protector "electronic equipment may need additional
protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use."

>
> Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

It is westom's mantra that protects him from confusing thoughts (aka
reality).

Unfortunately for westom, the IEEE surge guide explains (starting page
30) that plug in protectors do not work primarily by earthing surges.
Earthing occurs elsewhere. Plug-in protectors work by limiting the
voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the
protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected
equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

For real science, and excellent information on surge protection, read
the IEEE and NIST surge guides.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 6/19/2013 11:08 AM, gfre...@aol.com wrote:

> The best chance to get a PoCo to help you out with a surge is to buy
> their surge protection package. (protectors in the meter base and an
> evaluation of your grounding) Usually that will stop most of them tho.
> You want all of your surge protection connected to the same ground
> electrode system, preferably at the same place. That needs to be a
> robust grounding system too.,
> Then when you add point of use protection at the devices that need it.
> protecting all inputs, you have a comprehensive surge protection
> scheme.
>

The power company here offers a whole house surge protector that plugs
in behind the meter. Then the customer is definitely covered for voltage
surge damage to their equipment. ^_^

http://www.metertreater.com/Utility_Products.html

TDD

[Robert Macy]

On Jun 19, 9:25 am, bud-- <remove.budn...@isp.com> wrote:
> On 6/19/2013 6:44 AM, westom wrote:

>  > On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:45:08 AM UTC-4,k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com wrote:
>
>  >>   I'm thinking we need some kind of really strong voltage
>  >> control item on our comps and a few other things around here.
>  >> Any suggestions?
>
> Excellent information on surges and surge protection is at:http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf
> - "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
> for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
> communication circuits" published by the IEEE (the IEEE is a major
> organization of electrical and electronic engineers).

> And also:http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Surges%20happen...

Hear, hear. Good example of NO ground, Norway.

I was once told by utilities people that when a distribution
fault/'short' occurs; we'll see a brown-out, or complete drop out,
then the utilities come back on trying to 'clear' the short [burning
it out?] and if that doesn't work, power goes off again. Was
believable, because that has pretty much been the sequence here.

Only thing here that REALLY caused the PC's to get upset, was when
strong winds kept slapping the high tension cabling together coming in
from ?? Hoover Dam? [according to utilities spokesperson giving that
reason] You can't believe the on off sequences we went through.

[feedscrn]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 12:45:08 AM UTC-4, k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com wrote:

Here in this country we have frequent outages. Many ppl here use inverters, or in Spanish 'inversors', usually using four 12v batteries. Good for the times there is no electricity and for surge protection.

They are great in theory... but they suck up a lot of power, especially if one or more batteries are not up to par... If a battery has a problem holding a charge, then it will just keep sucking up electricity trying to charge... mucho dollars my friend... which is why even though I have one, I don't use it (our electricity has been pretty good around here lately).

Another problem is that the batteries go out rather frequently. A car battery typically lasts 3 years... but invertor batteries are always in use, so they only last a year at best.

[Tekkie®]

k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com posted for all of
us...

And I know how to SNIP

Many

--
Tekkie

[larrymo...@my-deja.com]

Maybe you just need a line filter that contains coils and capacitors
because they block surges according to how fast the voltage and
current change, rather than according to the voltage level, as MOVs do.
Typically the more expensive surge protector power strips have both
types of protection, but watch out for those that advertise having an
RF filter but it's only a capacitor.

[gregz]

I like the triplite suppressors with metal boxes, LC filtering and MOV
protection. I don't like plastic contraptions. I think the L does slow down
the spike enabling the MOV to do a better job. Many MOV devices have MOV's
with too high a trip point.
At a segment powered by the line, such as a computer desk, anything
connected to the computer must be grounded to the same ground. The ground
is not protected against another ground point by MOV. Signal grounds can
fail at very low voltage levels. Makes sense to use a protect strip with
plugs for telephones, and other data connection.

Greg

[gregz]

Have to mention isolation transformers, such as sold by triplite. The
ground is equalized at the transformer, since a new neutral is formed by
tying to ground. The will be no great potential between line and ground,
except if differential surge is created on line. Spikes would automatically
be attenuated.

I still have an old Heathkit spike and voltage monitor which no longer
works. I had given Heathkit recommendation of adding a ground monitor to
the circuit, but they sort of went away.

Greg

[gregz]

One time I had power going off and on. It was then a main suppressor blew.
I'm always concerned with things in the house to cause backward ac flow
against the main flow causing excessive voltage. Motors are still turning.
It's my theory. Thats why I like local suppressors on equipment. if
lightning hit a nearby line or your house, things will fail regardless. I
had a lightning strike my tree. Didn't notice any failure, but years ago I
had a modem go out in the computer, after a loud crack.
After that in installed MOV's on phone line.

Greg

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

A dual conversion UPS. Not cheap, but 100% effective against that
type of damage.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:10:40 -0600, Tony Hwang <drag...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

Same here in Waterloo Ontario - at least the part I live in.

[westom]

On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 1:10:04 PM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:
> The power company here offers a whole house surge protector that plugs
> in behind the meter. Then the customer is definitely covered for
> voltage surge damage to their equipment. ^_^

A 'whole house' protector is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. IEEE even puts a number to the protection. It does about 99.5% of the protection. Then get maybe an additional 0.2% protection using 'point of connection' protectors. IEEE papers even report damage created when 'point of connection' protectors are used without a 'whole house' protector.

Some facilities that may even suffer about 100 surges per storm always use the 'whole house' solution. In some cases, an employee could even be fired for using the adjacent 'point of connection' protector. Due to their higher requirements for reliablity.

Even professional organization including the IEEE, NIST, and ARRL recommend the 'whole house' solution. Because no protector does protection. Either the protector connects to what does protection - earth ground. Or the protector is for other transients that typically are not destructive; made irrelevant by protection that routinely exists inside all appliances (with or without internal MOVs).

The utility 'whole house' protector is so simple that the girl who reads the meter may often install it. But the same solution from many other (and more responsible companies including GE, Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Ditek, ABB, Syscom, Square D, etc) can be installed for less money.

Even the 'point of connection' protection needs protection only possible by earthing a 'whole house' protector.

[jeff_wisnia]

My ISP is Comcast, and I get a huge amount of storage space free with
our account.

I'm quite religious about backing up the computerized payroll data files
from our family business by FTPing them to Comcast immediately after
anything is done which changes them. I also back up stuff like my family
tree efforts and family photo albums there too.

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

[The Daring Dufas]

I remember reading about some research done by labs working for The DOD
where they had to come up with a way to protect the power systems and
connected electronic equipment from the EMP created by a nuclear weapon
when it explodes. They were testing surge protection installed in
layers. It would start where power entered the facility and was added to
inside electrical panels all the outlets and in/on the individual pieces
of electronic equipment. They found what they did was the best way to
protect electronic equipment from any extreme events affecting the
electrical power service. ^_^

TDD

[gregz]

When I moved in, the power company informed me I had a protector, and
wanted to know if I wanted to keep it. Something like $6-7 month. I don't
think anyone came to remove it, and I don't think I had one to begin with.
scam ?

Greg

[The Daring Dufas]

You should call your power company and ask them what they'll cover in
the way of damage if you lease a meter mounted surge arrester from them.
$7.00 per month sounds like cheep insurance to me. ^_^

TDD

[HeyBub]

k...@I.don't.have.a.clue.com wrote:
> Where we live we have regular electrical outages due to a number of
> problems. Last night, however, we had a new experience. It must have
> been something like a voltage surge. it blew out a drive of mine, my
> PC speaker system and screwed up our wireless home network pretty
> good. All electricity to the house went off for a few seconds and
> then turned back on. I guess the electric company had a backup system
> of sorts that took over.
>
> I did have so-called surge suppressor outlet strips to which our comps
> were plugged in. They were useless against whatever it was that
> happened. I'm amazed my battery backups for the computers are still
> working. I'm thinking we need some kind of really strong voltage
> control item on our comps and a few other things around here. Any
> suggestions?

The best thing YOU can do is to install a whole-house surge protecter. These
are available from Amazon for less than $50.00
(<http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_15?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=whole%20house%20surge%20protector&sprefix=whole+house+sur%2Caps%2C165&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Awhole%20house%20surge%20protector>

For example, read the reviews on the Supco SCM150 or the Square D SDSA1175,
both less than $50.00.

or often at the Big Box stores.

If your hand fits a screwdriver - and you're not terrified of electricity -
you can install one yourself at your circuit breaker box.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Thursday, June 20, 2013 12:31:30 PM UTC-4, westom wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 19, 2013 1:10:04 PM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
> > The power company here offers a whole house surge protector that plugs
>
> > in behind the meter. Then the customer is definitely covered for
>
> > voltage surge damage to their equipment. ^_^
>
>
>
> A 'whole house' protector is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage.

Nonsense. Look at a phone facility for example. Not only is
there protection on the incoming lines, there is also protection
on the linecard boards in the system that the lines go to too. Just
like IEEE recommends, they use a tiered protection strategy.
In the past, I even provided you with references to major component
manufacturers that provide such surge protection, but of course
you ignore it. Here are some again:

http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/Files/Littelfuse/Technical%20Resources/Documents/Reference%20Designs/3Analog.pdf



http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/jp/resource/technical/document/application_note/CD00004119.pdf

"A “primary protection” located on the Main Distribution Frame (MDF) eliminates coarsely the high energy
environmental disturbances (lightning transients and AC power mains disturbances)
n A “secondary protection” located on the line card includes a primary protection level (first stage) and a
residual protection (second stage) which eliminates finely the remaining transients that have not been totally
suppressed by the first stage."


Note that the above clearly is a TIERED strategy, consistent
with the IEEE recommendations.

IEEE even puts a number to the protection. It does about 99.5% of the protection. Then get maybe an additional 0.2% protection using 'point of connection' protectors.

Please provide us with a link that shows those numbers.

IEEE papers even report damage created when 'point of connection' protectors are used without a 'whole house' protector.
>
>
>
> Some facilities that may even suffer about 100 surges per storm always use the 'whole house' solution. In some cases, an employee could even be fired for using the adjacent 'point of connection' protector. Due to their higher requirements for reliablity.
>
>
>
> Even professional organization including the IEEE, NIST, and ARRL recommend the 'whole house' solution.

Yes and right in the IEEE white paper, part of that whole house
strategy is to use a whole house protector at the panel AND
point-of-use, ie plug-in protectors at appliances, like TV,
PC, etc.

Because no protector does protection. Either the protector connects to what does protection - earth ground. Or the protector is for other transients that typically are not destructive; made irrelevant by protection that routinely exists inside all appliances (with or without internal MOVs).

Still waiting all these years for an answer. If MOVs inside
an appliance are effective with out a direct connection to
ground, then how is it that MOVs located in an adjacent
surge protector are useless, because they have no earth ground?

And factor in that the MOVs in a $25 surge protector are
an order of magnitude larger than those in an appliance.
And which device would you rather have much of the surge
going through? The ones in the $25 surge protector or the
ones in the $2000 TV?

>
>
>
> The utility 'whole house' protector is so simple that the girl who reads the meter may often install it.

Demeaning comment noted. How would a simple girl
know if the earth ground is proper and adequate?

[westom]

On Friday, June 21, 2013 11:09:59 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> Nonsense. Look at a phone facility for example. Not only is
> there protection on the incoming lines, there is also protection
> on the linecard boards in the system that the lines go to too.

Protection on incoming lines is the 'whole house' solution. Protection in a line card is equivalent to protection found inside all household appliances. All appliances (and line cards) already contain protection that would otherwise be on its adjacent power wire. All appliances (and line cards) have best protection on lines entering the facility - properly earthed 'whole house' protection.

Tiered protection strategy exists when a consumer earths a 'whole house' protector and nothing more. An earthed 'whole house' protector is his "secondary" protection. Each layer of protection is defined by earth ground - not by the protector. A homeowner's "primary" protection layer is elsewhere. Consumers should also inspect their 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates that most important component:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Protection is always defined by where energy dissipates. Always. An effective protector makes a connection to what does protection. The only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Including telco switching centers, radio and TV broadcast stations, and even munitions dumps. The solution that rarely exists in homes because so many foolishly think that power strip protects from the other and typically destructive surge. It doesn’t.

I never said MOVs adjacent to appliances are useless. They do a maybe 0.2% additional protection. Many manufactures stopped putting MOVs inside appliances. Since other internal protection is often hardier. And since internal MOVs do little to protect from the other and typically destructive surge.

All appliances (and line cards) by design already have superior protection. The informed homeowner is concerned with another and typically destructive transient. A transient that can overwhelm existing protection. That transient can only be diverted by properly earthed protectors. A 'whole house' solution is even necessary to protect 'point of connection' protectors ... that otherwise only protect from something that is typically not destructive.

So yes, the adjacent protector does maybe an additional 0.2% protection. And the 'whole house' protector must still exist. Spend about $1 per protected appliance for about 99.5% protection - one properly earthed 'whole house' protector to protect from all type of surges. Then spend $25 or $80 per appliance to protect mostly from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. Yes, install a tiered solution. But that is done with protection already inside each appliance, by what is required (and typically missing) in most homes (a properly earthed 'whole house' protector), and the already existing 'primary' protection layer.

Protectors without the short connection to earth do not and do not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge. That other surge is typically made irrelevant by what already exists even in dimmer switches, CFL light bulbs, computers, clocks, the furnace and air conditioner, and even smoke detectors.

Informed consumers are better advised to direct money into what is more important - better earthing. And either a wire connection or a 'whole house' protector connection to what actually does the protection - earth ground.

Page 42 figure 8: The adjacent protector is too far from earth ground and too close to appliances. So it earths a surge 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. We have seen this often (in part because we did this stuff). Distance between a protector and electronics INCREASES protection. Distance from protector to earth ground is a most critical parameter for effective protection ... from the other and typically destructive surge. Even power strip protectors need protection only possible by earthing one 'whole house' protector.

[The Daring Dufas]

> from the other and typically destructive surge. It doesn�t.

When I was doing a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB,
our rural customers were having problems with power surges blowing out
capacitors and other parts of of their HVAC systems. We started
installing hard wired surge protection on their systems and it
eliminated those type failures. ^_^

TDD

[Tomsic]

"westom" <wes...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:55342da9-f70d-4cbc...@googlegroups.com...

Excellent information and great examples of problems. Utilities by now
should have figured out a better way to protect ground wires and ground rods
than plastic or wooden "protectors" and hose clamps and they ought to be
required to maintain them. I suppose it will take some substantial human
damage and more than a few lawsuits for someone to write a "standard" and
mandated compliance. Too bad.

Tomsic

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Saturday, June 22, 2013 8:10:16 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 11:09:59 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> > Nonsense. Look at a phone facility for example. Not only is
>
> > there protection on the incoming lines, there is also protection
>
> > on the linecard boards in the system that the lines go to too.
>
>
>
> Protection on incoming lines is the 'whole house' solution.

Then you agree that this, which you posted, is untrue:

"A 'whole house' protector is the only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. "

Protection in a line card is equivalent to protection found inside all household appliances. All appliances (and line cards) already contain protection that would otherwise be on its adjacent power wire. All appliances (and line cards) have best protection on lines entering the facility - properly earthed 'whole house' protection.

Protection on a line card, as I said, is part of a TIERED protection
strategy. A strategy that can include plug-in surge protectors. See
the IEEE guide. Also, still waiting all these years for the answer to
how can that surge protection on a line card or inside an appliance
be effective surge protectors, when there is no direct earth ground?
Yet the same components, MOVs, placed inside a plug-in surge protector
according to you, offer no protection or can damage eqpt. Explain
that contradiction.

>
>
>
> Tiered protection strategy exists when a consumer earths a 'whole house' protector and nothing more.

Now you're lying. Look at the IEEE guide. Bud gave the
link for all to see. It talks about tiered protection and
it is *not* just one whole house surge protector. Who should
folks believe? IEEE and NIST or you?

An earthed 'whole house' protector is his "secondary" protection.

Each layer of protection is defined by earth ground - not by the protector. A homeowner's "primary" protection layer is elsewhere.

Really? Where would that be?

Consumers should also inspect their 'primary' protection layer. A picture demonstrates that most important component:
>
> http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
>
>
>
> Protection is always defined by where energy dissipates. Always.

Tell that to Boeing. Where do they dissipate a lightning strike
that hits a 777? Yet the aircraft is protected.

And tell that to yourself too, because in this very post,
you acknowledge that appliance manufacturers put surge
protection inside appliances. Where does that energy dissipate
with no direct, nearby, earth ground?

An effective protector makes a connection to what does protection. The only solution always found in every facility that cannot have damage. Including telco switching centers, radio and TV broadcast stations, and even munitions dumps. The solution that rarely exists in homes because so many foolishly think that power strip protects from the other and typically destructive surge. It doesn’t.
>
>
>
> I never said MOVs adjacent to appliances are useless. They do a maybe 0.2% >additional protection.

Good grief dude, are you suffering from memory loss? Bud
will have a good laugh at that one too, I'm sure.

> Many manufactures stopped putting MOVs inside appliances. Since other internal protection is often hardier.

Which ones would those be? Please show us some examples.

And since internal MOVs do little to protect from the other and typically destructive surge.
>
>

Can they protect from all surges? No. Are they useful
as part of a tiered protection strategy? Yes. That's why
the are in virtually every appliance. The same is true
of plug-in surge protectors, which use devices, MOVs, with
a lot more capacity than those in the appliance. Which is
better? Have a plug-in surge protector connected to a TV
that has a medium size MOV in it, or just rely on the smaller
MOV in the TV? And remember, that MOVs degrade a bit with
each surge. Would you rather have a good portion of any
surge go through the $25 plug-in and then have the $2000 TV
deal with the rest, or all of it go to the TV?

Tiered:

Whole house
Plug-ins
Inside the appliance

>
> All appliances (and line cards) by design already have superior protection. The informed homeowner is concerned with another and typically destructive transient. A transient that can overwhelm existing protection. That transient can only be diverted by properly earthed protectors.

Then why do the above line cards have surge protection at all?
According to you, it's worthless because the facility already has
protection on the lines where they enter the building. Why do
you continue to contradict yourself?

A 'whole house' solution is even necessary to protect 'point of connection' protectors ... that otherwise only protect from something that is typically not destructive.
>
>
>
> So yes, the adjacent protector does maybe an additional 0.2% protection. And the 'whole house' protector must still exist. Spend about $1 per protected appliance for about 99.5% protection - one properly earthed 'whole house' protector to protect from all type of surges. Then spend $25 or $80 per appliance to protect mostly from a type of surge that typically causes no damage. Yes, install a tiered solution. But that is done with protection already inside each appliance, by what is required (and typically missing) in most homes (a properly earthed 'whole house' protector), and the already existing 'primary' protection layer.
>
>

The nonsense repeated, because you're on what amounts to
a religous crusade.

>
> Protectors without the short connection to earth do not and do not claim to protect from the typically destructive surge. That other surge is typically made irrelevant by what already exists even in dimmer switches, CFL light bulbs, computers, clocks, the furnace and air conditioner, and even smoke detectors.
>
>

How is that possible? According to you there is no protection
unless those smoke detectors are connected directly to a ground rod?
And again, which would you prefer deal with any surges that
are coming in on the cord of a $2000 TV. The small MOV in the
TV, or the much bigger one in the $25 surge protector?

>
> Informed consumers are better advised to direct money into what is more important - better earthing. And either a wire connection or a 'whole house' protector connection to what actually does the protection - earth ground.
>
>

Informed consumers should read the IEEE and other
links provided by Bud. They say you're wrong.

>
> Page 42 figure 8: The adjacent protector is too far from earth ground and too close to appliances. So it earths a surge 8000 volts destructively through any nearby appliance. We have seen this often (in part because we did this stuff). Distance between a protector and electronics INCREASES protection. Distance from protector to earth ground is a most critical parameter for effective protection ... from the other and typically destructive surge. Even power strip protectors need protection only possible by earthing one 'whole house' protector.

No link provided, so we have no figure or context, just
your interpretation.

[tra...@optonline.net]

> > from the other and typically destructive surge. It doesn’t.

No.... A point of use protector that works? Why that's
impossible according to Tom. You should have seen more
destruction, caused by the protector, according to him.

[tra...@optonline.net]

What utilities are using hose clamps to secure earth
ground wires? As far as standards, they already exist.
NEC, for example, defines acceptable grounding methods,
materials, practices, etc. PS: Hose clamps are not allowed.

[The Daring Dufas]

On 6/22/2013 9:19 AM, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 8:28:01 AM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>> On 6/22/2013 7:10 AM, westom wrote:
>>

********Trim Da Phat********

>>
>>
>> When I was doing a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend
>> GB,
>>
>> our rural customers were having problems with power surges blowing
>> out
>>
>> capacitors and other parts of of their HVAC systems. We started
>>
>> installing hard wired surge protection on their systems and it
>>
>> eliminated those type failures. ^_^
>>
>>
>>
>> TDD
>
> No.... A point of use protector that works? Why that's impossible
> according to Tom. You should have seen more destruction, caused by
> the protector, according to him.
>

Well, first of all, we always replaced capacitors with those of a higher
voltage rating. But the hard wired protectors right there on the
condensing unit and indoor furnace protected them. ^_^

TDD

[westom]

On Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:18:17 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> Protection on a line card, as I said, is part of a TIERED protection
> strategy. A strategy that can include plug-in surge protectors.

As I have said repeatedly, anything that a plug-in protector might do is already done better inside appliances (or line card). Please read what I posted. Not what you want to read.

We were not discussing solutions that come standard in all appliances (even dimmer switches and GFCIs). We are discussing a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts that sell at $25, $40 or $100 for obscene profits. That protector is tiniest protection without a 'whole house' protector. And does little when a 'whole house' protector is properly earthed.

I am not discussing in black and white extremist rhetoric that you are reposting. Why spend so much money on 'point of connection' protectors when that protection exists inside each appliance. Where is money better spent? To upgrade what best defines protection - the single point earth ground.

One method for even better protection is Ufer grounds. Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. But again, that does not say the plug-in protector is useless. Just not cost effective as you would have others believe.

The other and effective protector connects surge energy low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. It is not 100% protection. But the least expensive solution does most all protection. IEEE even provides perspective: "a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice."

For most homeowners, that is sufficient. For facilities that cannot have damage, that is essential. Facilities that cannot have damage always use a 'whole house' solution. Even 'point of connection' protectors need that protection to avert house fires.

Why are you trying to sell plug-in protector without a 'whole house' solution? Why are you promoting that scam?

[westom]

On Saturday, June 22, 2013 9:44:30 AM UTC-4, Tomsic wrote:

> I suppose it will take some substantial human
> damage and more than a few lawsuits for someone to write a
> "standard" and mandated compliance.

Standard already exists. But some utilities have a history of worrying more about profits and less about the product. New Jersey assigned a PUC commissioner only for First Energy due to repeated reliability violations.

One was not fixing compromised earth grounds. Some municipalities even had to create ordinances. A $5000 per day fine every day someone was shocked in their swimming pool or jacuzzi. Only then did First Energy permit their linemen to fix earth grounds.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 10:52:25 AM UTC-4, westom wrote:
> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 10:18:17 AM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> > Protection on a line card, as I said, is part of a TIERED protection
>
> > strategy. A strategy that can include plug-in surge protectors.
>
>
>
> As I have said repeatedly, anything that a plug-in protector might do is already done better inside appliances (or line card).

Just because you repeat something that is wrong or a lie,
doesn't make it true.

> Please read what I posted. Not what you want to read.

We've all read what you've posted, many times over the
years.

>
>
>
> We were not discussing solutions that come standard in all appliances (even dimmer switches and GFCIs). We are discussing a $3 power strip with ten cent protector parts that sell at $25, $40 or $100 for obscene profits. That protector is tiniest protection without a 'whole house' protector. And does little when a 'whole house' protector is properly earthed.
>
>

What comes standard in an appliance is just one small part of
the discussion. And if you look at the price of components, you
will find that the MOVs inside a plug-in surge protector don't
cost 10 cents, they cost substantially more. The ones inside the
appliance, while costing less, aren't 10 cents.

>
> I am not discussing in black and white extremist rhetoric that you are reposting.

Good grief! You are exactly that. I'm not the one here on a
religious crusade against plug-in surge protectors. Another curious
aspect. I post here on a wide variety of topics, almost daily.
Why is it that we only see you here when a post has "surge protector"
in it? If that isn't a sign of someone obsessed with one issue,
I don't know what is.

Why spend so much money on 'point of connection' protectors when that protection exists inside each appliance.

So that if a 2000V surge comes along, it first arrives at the $25
plug-in protector, it starts to clamp the voltages, starts to shunt
it to ground, instead of the $2000 TV. Got it now?

Where is money better spent? To upgrade what best defines protection - the single point earth ground.
>
>

Nobody is arguing that good grounding practices, a whole house
surge protector, is not the first line of defense. But your
position is like saying, locking the doors is all that one needs
do to secure a house and having a safe, window bars, hiding
valuables, etc is a waste.

>
> One method for even better protection is Ufer grounds.

I don't believe that is true either. While they make
good grounds, I haven't seen anything that says you can't
have equal protection with a ground rod in suitable soil.

Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

The lie repeated. Still waiting for that explanation. Appliances
have MOVs for surge protection. The same devices, just smaller, as
found in plub-in surge protectors. So, how the hell can they work
with out the appliance being directly connected to an earth ground?

But again, that does not say the plug-in protector is useless. Just not cost effective as you would have others believe.
>
>

So, which is it? You say they are worthless. You say they
actually cause damage. Now you suddenly say they are not
useless.

>
> The other and effective protector connects surge energy low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth ground. It is not 100% protection. But the least expensive solution does most all protection. IEEE even provides perspective: "a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ... Protection at 99.5% is the practical choice."
>
>

Again, you're telling us what IEEE says, with no link.
Funny thing that.

>
> For most homeowners, that is sufficient. For facilities that cannot have damage, that is essential. Facilities that cannot have damage always use a 'whole house' solution.

Yes as part of a TIERED STRATEGY. It's *not* the only surge
protection. Just like IEEE recommends.

Even 'point of connection' protectors need that protection to avert house fires.
>
>
>
> Why are you trying to sell plug-in protector without a 'whole house' solution? Why are you promoting that scam?

Why is it that when you have no links, no credible sources to
support your claims, that you resort to accusing anyone who does,
of being a paid saleperson for or connected to a surge protector company?

[thekma...@gmail.com]

You guys do know this is the peak year of a solar max, don't you?

[thekma...@gmail.com]

Tra...@optonline.net "Just because you repeat something that is wrong or a lie, doesn't make it true."

Fox News became the most-watched cable news outlet in America by repeating shit. lmao!

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:58:14 PM UTC-4, thekma...@gmail.com wrote:
> Tra...@optonline.net "Just because you repeat something that is wrong or a lie, doesn't make it true."
>
>
>
> Fox News became the most-watched cable news outlet in America by repeating shit. lmao!

You've made the accusation. So, now it should be easy
to provide us with some examples where Fox News lies or
repeats something that isn't true. We're waiting, but
I'll bet like almost all who slam Fox, you can't back it up.

[westom]

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:41:40 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
> So that if a 2000V surge comes along, it first arrives at the $25
> plug-in protector, it starts to clamp the voltages, starts to shunt
> it to ground, instead of the $2000 TV. Got it now?

I foolishly assumed you had basic electrical knowledge. You are foolishly assuming normal mode currents. Destructive surges are longitudinal mode currents.

With basic knowledge, you know why surges (including direct lightning strikes) cause no damage in munitions dumps. Ufer grounds. Proven protection. Why do you know otherwise? Apparently you do not even grasp some basic electrical concepts.

You assumed a current incoming (ie left to right) on one AC wire is also returning (right to left) on another AC wire. Please learn basic electrical concepts rather than posting assumptions and disparaging comments. A destructive transients is incoming on any or all AC wires (ie left to right). And outgoing destructively through the appliance in that same direction to earth. Your plug-in protector sees near zero voltage during a current that only flows in one direction on all wires. That same current that creates near zero voltage in a protector also creates maybe 3000 volts destructively through an adjacent appliance. Overwhelms protection inside that appliance.

Page 42 Figure 8 of an NIST document demonstrates same. A protector too far from earth ground must earth that surge destructively via an adjacent TV. Why does the NIST show 8000 volts in that TV when at protector supposedly limits voltage to 330 volts? Because the protector sees near zero voltage while the TV is damaged by 8000 volts. Now I understand why you do not understand page 42 figure 8. You do not even know the difference between normal and longitudinal mode currents.

A destructive current created no voltage across a protector while creating 8000 volts destructively in the adjacent TV. Page 42 figure 8. An adjacent protector did nothing to protect nearby appliances. It was too far from earth ground. It only claims to protect from a different type of transient - that typically causes no damage.

This electrical concept is so basic as to be taught to first semester engineers. Common knowledge says destructive surges are current mode transient. Not voltage mode (ie 2000 volts) as you repeatedly assume.

Furthermore, if the protector was at 2000 volts, then it was destroyed - a potential fire hazard. You did not even know that?

Either current is harmlessly absorbed in earth BEFORE entering a building. Or current goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Repeated not because you will suddenly grasp it. You do not even cite one spec number or electrical fact. Why deny what is common knowledge among professional? Basic electrical concepts were not learned. As demonstrated by your protector at 2000 volts.

When facilities suffer damage, professional fix a primary reason for damage. Defective earthing.

For example, a case study of a Nebraska radio station where grounds were compromised due to same technical ignorance. How did they eliminate damage? No protectors. Instead the reason for lightning damage was upgraded, restored, or installed at each tier. Each tier (layer of protection) is defined by an earth ground. In this case study, they even upgraded the 'primary' surge protection layer - the electric company's earth ground:
http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/nebraska.html

We have been through your denials, insufficient electrical knowledge, no spec numbers, and insults repeatedly. You do not even understand the difference between a current source and a voltage source. And why that is relevant. You even assumed a protector works on a 2000 volt transient. Somehow know a plug-in protector does more when even the manufacturer does not claim that protection.

If a plug-in protector did everything as you claimed, then manufacturer specification numbers were posted. No numbers provided for one simple reason. Lack of technical knowledge? Even the manufacturer does not claim to protect from another and typically destructive surge. You do not even understand the difference between longitudinal and normal mode currents - as demonstrated on page 42 figure 8.

A report from an AT&T conference discusses that. Describes why plug-in protectors have limited abilities and why the 'whole house' solution does so much more (despite your repeated denials):
[quote]
> Surge protection for DSL and dialup service.
> Surge protection takes on many forms, but always involves the following
> components: Grounding bonding and surge protectors. ...

> Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump
> the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory
> requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector
> has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect
> downstream equipment.

> Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds
> of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still
> enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to
> pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the
> services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into
> and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the
> process. ...

> Now, if all the various service entrance grounds are bonded together there
> are no additional paths to ground through the premise. Even if all of the
> grounds cannot instantly absorb the energy, the lack of additional paths
> to ground through the premise prevents the excess energy from seeking out
> any additional grounds through that premise and the electronic equipment
> within. As such, the excess energy remains in the ground system until
> dissipated, sparing the protected equipment from damage. ...

> By far, the whole house hardwired surge protectors provide the best
> protection. When a whole house primary surge protector is installed at the
> service entrance, it will provide a solid first line of defense against
> surges which enter from the power company's service entrance feed. These
> types of protectors can absorb/pass considerably more energy than any other
> type of protector, and if one does catastrophically fail, it will not
> typically be in a living space. ...

> Plug in strip protectors are, at best, a compromise. At worst, they may
> cause more damage than they prevent. While they may do an acceptable job
> of handling hot to neutral surges, they do a poor job of handling any
> surge that must be passed to ground. ...

> Then, to add insult to injury, some strip protectors add Telco and/or LAN
> surge protection within the same device, trying to be an all-in-one sale.
> Remember bonding? When Telco or LAN protection is added to a strip
> protector, if the premise ground, which is not designed to handle surges,
> cannot handle all of the energy, guess where that excess energy seeks out
> the additional grounds? You got it! The Telco and LAN connections now
> becomes the path, with disastrous results to those devices.
[/quote]

Why do professional discuss earthing of a 'whole house' protector as critical - despite your incessant denials? Why do you claim a plug-in protector is a superior solution when professionals state otherwise ... with numbers?

That last post says why. You do not even know the difference between a current and voltage mode transient. Instead post mocking insults - as if that proves electrical knowledge. Even basics demonstrated on page 42 figure 8 escape you. Somehow 2000 volts on a protector is protection? Please learn some basic electrical concepts.

Professionals state: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A plug-in protector does what already exists inside each appliance. And it sees near zero voltage when a typically destructive transient (ie 8000 volts) overwhelms protection inside that appliance. Understanding requires basic concepts such as normal verse longitudinal mode..

Of course you could, for once, post that plug-in protector spec that claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge. Never posted in posts that only belittle – as if that proves expertise. Manufacturer does not claim protection from typically destructive surges. Only claims to protect from surges already made irrelevant by what is inside every appliance. So you will post more nasty replies. To mask a reality – you do not even understand relevant electrical concepts. Insults only prove your knowledge banks are bankrupt.

Of course you could surprise everyone. Post a plug-in protector specification that claims protection from each type of surge. Even the AT&T report says why that will never happen.

[bud--]

On 6/23/2013 7:14 PM, westom wrote:
>
> Page 42 Figure 8 of an NIST document demonstrates same. A protector too far
> from earth ground must earth that surge destructively via an adjacent TV.
> Why does the NIST show 8000 volts in that TV when at protector supposedly limits
> voltage to 330 volts? Because the protector sees near zero voltage while
> the TV is damaged by 8000 volts. Now I understand why you do not understand
> page 42 figure 8.

Westom does not understand the excellent example from the IEEE (not
NIST) surge guide. (I posted a link to both surge guides.)

Anyone with minimal mental abilities (which does not include westom) can
discover what the IEEE surge guide says in this example:
- A plug-in protector protects the TV connected to it.
- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."
- The illustration "shows a very common improper use of multiport
protectors"

It is simply a lie that the plug-in protector in the IEEE example
damages the second TV.

In the example, a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground wire
from cable entry ground block to the earthing system at the power
service that is far too long. With minimal mental abilities westom would
have read that "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to
use a multiport [plug-in] protector."

And with minimal mental abilities westom's would have figured out his
favored power service protector would provide absolutely NO protection.

All this has been posted many times but westom just ignores anything
that does not fit his very limited beliefs about surge protection.

>
> We have been through your denials, insufficient electrical knowledge, no
> spec numbers, and insults repeatedly.

We have been through westom's denials, insufficient electrical
knowledge, and insults repeatedly.

Westom googles for "surge" to spread his beliefs. He has joined an
astonishing number of forums. Unfortunately some of westom's beliefs are
complete nonsense. It is like talking to a mormon missionary.

Simple questions westom is not able to answer:
- Why do the only 2 detailed examples of protection in the IEEE surge
guide use plug-in protectors?
- Why does the NIST surge guide says plug-in protectors are "the
easiest solution"?
- Why does the NIST surge guide say "One effective solution is to have
the consumer install" a multiport plug-in protector?
- Why does the NIST surge guide say "Plug-in...The easiest of all for
anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?'"
- Why does the IEEE surge guide says for distant entry points "the only
effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport
[plug-in] protector."

>
> If a plug-in protector did everything as you claimed, then manufacturer
> specification numbers were posted.

Manufacturer specs have been posted by many people. They are always
ignored, just like westom ignores anything that does not fit his very
limited beliefs about surge protection.

> Even the manufacturer does not claim to protect from another
> and typically destructive surge.

Complete nonsense.

Some manufacturers even have protected equipment warranties.

>
> Professionals state: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Professionals state: plug-in protectors do not work primarily by
earthing (IEEE surge guide, starting page 30). And plug-in protectors
primarily work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal)
to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to
the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

Just another thing westom ignores.

>
> Of course you could, for once, post that plug-in protector spec that
> claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge.

One of westom's favorite lies.

Another is that service panel protectors provide 99+% protection. The
99+% figures come from the IEEE "Green" book and are for lightning rods.
They have absolutely nothing to do with surge protectors.

[bud--]

On 6/22/2013 6:28 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
>
> When I was doing a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB,
> our rural customers were having problems with power surges blowing out
> capacitors and other parts of of their HVAC systems. We started
> installing hard wired surge protection on their systems and it
> eliminated those type failures. ^_^
>
> TDD

In the event of a strong surge that is earthed, or a near lightning
strike, the pad under a compressor/condenser can be at a far different
potential than the building electrical "ground". The compressor is at
the potential of the pad and the wires at the potential of the
electrical "ground". The difference can be high enough to damage the
compressor. It is described in the IEEE surge guide page 34. The guide
describes surge protection at the compressor, as in your post above.

[tra...@optonline.net]

On Sunday, June 23, 2013 9:14:15 PM UTC-4, westom wrote:
> On Sunday, June 23, 2013 2:41:40 PM UTC-4, tra...@optonline.net wrote:
>
> > So that if a 2000V surge comes along, it first arrives at the $25
>
> > plug-in protector, it starts to clamp the voltages, starts to shunt
>
> > it to ground, instead of the $2000 TV. Got it now?
>
>
>
> I foolishly assumed you had basic electrical knowledge. You are foolishly assuming normal mode currents. Destructive surges are longitudinal mode currents.
>

I assumed no such thing.

>
> With basic knowledge, you know why surges (including direct lightning strikes) cause no damage in munitions dumps. Ufer grounds. Proven protection. Why do you know otherwise? Apparently you do not even grasp some basic electrical concepts.
>

Funny that what I grasp is consistent with IEEE and
NIST. And they say plug-in surge protectors should be
used as part of a tiered protection strategy.

>
> You assumed a current incoming (ie left to right) on one AC wire is also returning (right to left) on another AC wire. Please learn basic electrical concepts rather than posting assumptions and disparaging comments. A destructive transients is incoming on any or all AC wires (ie left to right). And outgoing destructively through the appliance in that same direction to earth.

Now current only flows left to right? Good grief!

Your plug-in protector sees near zero voltage during a current that only flows in one direction on all wires. That same current that creates near zero voltage in a protector also creates maybe 3000 volts destructively through an adjacent appliance. Overwhelms protection inside that appliance.

Nonsense. If a TV is connected to a surge protector and
both the AC wires and the Cable TV going into it run through
the surge protector, how could the TV see a 3000V surge, while
the surge protector sees nothing....

>
>
>
> Page 42 Figure 8 of an NIST document demonstrates same. A protector too far from earth ground must earth that surge destructively via an adjacent TV. Why does the NIST show 8000 volts in that TV when at protector supposedly limits voltage to 330 volts? Because the protector sees near zero voltage while the TV is damaged by 8000 volts. Now I understand why you do not understand page 42 figure 8. You do not even know the difference between normal and longitudinal mode currents.
>
>

Good grief! The discussion of figure 8 that you talk about
above ends with:

"To protect TV2, a second multiport protector
located at TV2 is required."

It doesn't say that plug-ins don't work. It doesn't say
that they cause damage. It says that in a situation where
you have two TVs, if you don't have a surge protector on
the second TV, it's not protectd.

Why do you try to use a reference and totally ignore
the overall message that the reference presents. In this
case, that message is, that plug-in protectors do work.

>
> A destructive current created no voltage across a protector while creating 8000 volts destructively in the adjacent TV. Page 42 figure 8. An adjacent protector did nothing to protect nearby appliances. It was too far from earth ground. It only claims to protect from a different type of transient - that typically causes no damage.
>
>

See above

>
> This electrical concept is so basic as to be taught to first semester engineers. Common knowledge says destructive surges are current mode transient. Not voltage mode (ie 2000 volts) as you repeatedly assume.
>

You must have gone to a special college where they
brainwashed you on surge protectors, starting first semester.
The rest of us were busy taking calculus, physics, chemistry,
and maybe on EE course on circuit theory.

>
> Furthermore, if the protector was at 2000 volts, then it was destroyed - a potential fire hazard. You did not even know that?
>
>

That's a lie.

>
> Either current is harmlessly absorbed in earth BEFORE entering a building. Or current goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Repeated not because you will suddenly grasp it. You do not even cite one spec number or electrical fact. Why deny what is common knowledge among professional? Basic electrical concepts were not learned. As demonstrated by your protector at 2000 volts.
>
>

Both Bud and I cited the IEEE guide and NIST. Both say
you're wrong.

Speaking of the requirement for an earth ground, without which
there is no possibility of lightning protection, better give
Boeing a call. Their planes are fully protected, yet they don't
trail a copper wire connected to a ground rod.

>
> When facilities suffer damage, professional fix a primary reason for damage. Defective earthing.
>
>

You'd fix a primary reason as a surge protector, no matter
if a bulldozer destroyed the building.

>
> For example, a case study of a Nebraska radio station where grounds were compromised due to same technical ignorance. How did they eliminate damage? No protectors. Instead the reason for lightning damage was upgraded, restored, or installed at each tier. Each tier (layer of protection) is defined by an earth ground.

The IEEE and NIST say you're wrong.

In this case study, they even upgraded the 'primary' surge protection layer - the electric company's earth ground:
>
> http://www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/nebraska.html
>
>
>
> We have been through your denials, insufficient electrical knowledge, no spec numbers, and insults repeatedly. You do not even understand the difference between a current source and a voltage source.

Sigh. Yes I do. And I know about Norton equivalents and Thevenin
equivalents. I learned that in college while you were apparently
being brainwashed about surge protectors. As for surge protectors
being in college curriculum, I think you'd be hard pressed to
find a college that has that in their courses.

And why that is relevant. You even assumed a protector works on a 2000 volt transient. Somehow know a plug-in protector does more when even the manufacturer does not claim that protection.

Sigh, of course surge protector is capable of handling
a 2000V surge.

>
>
>
> If a plug-in protector did everything as you claimed, then manufacturer specification numbers were posted. No numbers provided for one simple reason. Lack of technical knowledge? Even the manufacturer does not claim to protect from another and typically destructive surge. You do not even understand the difference between longitudinal and normal mode currents - as demonstrated on page 42 figure 8.
>
>

Sigh, no numbers posted because no numbers were requested.
If you like, go look at them yourself.

Lack of a link, so that we can read the whole thing
in context, again noted. You took the NIST document
and completely lied about what it says. You selected
one diagram, one part of the document and tried to
use it above. Anyone can go to page 42, read it and
see that it ends with them saying to protect the TV
that had no surge protector, you just need to use one.
So, if you lie that way, why would anyone trust your
random excerpts of anything?

>
> Why do professional discuss earthing of a 'whole house' protector as critical - despite your incessant denials? Why do you claim a plug-in protector is a superior solution when professionals state otherwise ... with numbers?
>

NIST, IEEE are professionals and they say you're nuts.

>
> That last post says why. You do not even know the difference between a current and voltage mode transient. Instead post mocking insults - as if that proves electrical knowledge. Even basics demonstrated on page 42 figure 8 escape you.

The part that escaped you was that it concludes with the
statement that to protect TV2 that was damaged by a surge,
you add a plug-in surge protector to it.

Somehow 2000 volts on a protector is protection? Please learn some basic electrical concepts.
>
>
>
> Professionals state: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. A plug-in protector does what already exists inside each appliance.

Again, how the hell do MOVs inside an appliance provide
surge protection, when much larger and effective MOVs
inside a plug-in protector do not. Does your tV come with
a built-in earth ground?

And it sees near zero voltage when a typically destructive transient (ie 8000 volts) overwhelms protection inside that appliance. Understanding requires basic concepts such as normal verse longitudinal mode..
>
>
>
> Of course you could, for once, post that plug-in protector spec that claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge. Never posted in posts that only belittle – as if that proves expertise

No belittling, no attacks, just the facts. Unless you think
it's belittling that I pointed out that the only time you
show up in AHR is when someone mentions surge protector.

Manufacturer does not claim protection from typically destructive surges. Only claims to protect from surges already made irrelevant by what is inside every appliance. So you will post more nasty replies. To mask a reality – you do not even understand relevant electrical concepts. Insults only prove your knowledge banks are bankrupt.
>
>

Yawn...

[gregz]

Many years go this guy wrote up an magazine article, then a book. It's not
so much for house protection, but equipment protection, and noise
protection. It's a bible. Good read.

http://www.amazon.com/PC-Power-Protection-Mark-Waller/dp/0672226375

Greg