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OT - Speaker Wire, Crackling Speakers
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DerbyDad03
Nov 19, 2012, 3:48:22 PM11/19/12
to
A few weeks ago I picked up a surround sound system on Craigslist. It
came with some pretty thin speaker wire, (24 gauge I think) but the
guy said it worked fine for him. I had enough of my own 16g wire to
connect the front and center speakers, but not enough to connect the
rears.
With what I had left after wiring the front and center speakers, I ran
2 lengths of 16g down into the basement, across the ceiling and back
up into the living room, where I attached them (securely) to the 24g
for the rear speakers. I'd guess 15' of 24g for the right rear speaker
and 25' for the left. The wires ran next to each through the basement,
up into the living room, along one wall and then parted ways in a
corner, with one going up to the right rear and the other continuing
along the floor to the other side of the room and then up to the left
rear speaker.
What I found was that both rear speakers would sort of crackel if I
turned the volume up too high. Low volumes were fine, but I couldn't
crank it up. It wasn't really distortion of the sound itself, as much
as a high pitched tick-tick-tick on top of the sound. I actually
narrowed it down to the left rear speaker wire as the root cause, the
one with the longest wire run of 24g wire. As long as that length of
wire was hooked up, both rear speakers would crackle at high volume.
If I plugged one of the 16g wires to the front speakers into the left
rear jack on the system, there was no crackling. If I unplugged the
left rear and ran just the right rear, there was no crackling. That
tells me that the noise was definitely related to that run of wire.
This weekend I bought enough 16g wire to rewire both rear speakers,
each with it's own single run of wire from the system to the speaker.
No more crackling even when cranked up loud enough to send the cat
running from the room.
So, to all you would be sound engineers, I ask this simple question:
Why would a small gauge wire running to that one speaker cause both
rear speakers to crackel? Yes, originally there was small gauge wire
running to both rear speakers, but as I said, when I unplugged the
longest length of 24g to the left speaker, the right speaker stopped
crackling.
What would cause that type of problem?
came with some pretty thin speaker wire, (24 gauge I think) but the
guy said it worked fine for him. I had enough of my own 16g wire to
connect the front and center speakers, but not enough to connect the
rears.
With what I had left after wiring the front and center speakers, I ran
2 lengths of 16g down into the basement, across the ceiling and back
up into the living room, where I attached them (securely) to the 24g
for the rear speakers. I'd guess 15' of 24g for the right rear speaker
and 25' for the left. The wires ran next to each through the basement,
up into the living room, along one wall and then parted ways in a
corner, with one going up to the right rear and the other continuing
along the floor to the other side of the room and then up to the left
rear speaker.
What I found was that both rear speakers would sort of crackel if I
turned the volume up too high. Low volumes were fine, but I couldn't
crank it up. It wasn't really distortion of the sound itself, as much
as a high pitched tick-tick-tick on top of the sound. I actually
narrowed it down to the left rear speaker wire as the root cause, the
one with the longest wire run of 24g wire. As long as that length of
wire was hooked up, both rear speakers would crackle at high volume.
If I plugged one of the 16g wires to the front speakers into the left
rear jack on the system, there was no crackling. If I unplugged the
left rear and ran just the right rear, there was no crackling. That
tells me that the noise was definitely related to that run of wire.
This weekend I bought enough 16g wire to rewire both rear speakers,
each with it's own single run of wire from the system to the speaker.
No more crackling even when cranked up loud enough to send the cat
running from the room.
So, to all you would be sound engineers, I ask this simple question:
Why would a small gauge wire running to that one speaker cause both
rear speakers to crackel? Yes, originally there was small gauge wire
running to both rear speakers, but as I said, when I unplugged the
longest length of 24g to the left speaker, the right speaker stopped
crackling.
What would cause that type of problem?
Han
Nov 19, 2012, 3:58:54 PM11/19/12
to
DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in news:2964af91-c524-4a98-90d8-
ecbe23...@o8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
Since 24 g is rather thin, and probably was NOT a stranded wire, could
there have been a separation that occasional was sufficient to interrupt
the signal?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
ecbe23...@o8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
there have been a separation that occasional was sufficient to interrupt
the signal?
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
DerbyDad03
Nov 19, 2012, 4:08:31 PM11/19/12
to
On Nov 19, 3:58 pm, Han <nob...@nospam.not> wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote in news:2964af91-c524-4a98-90d8-
> ecbe2341a...@o8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
> - Show quoted text -
It was stranded wire. This stuff...
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-100-24-Gauge-Speaker-Wire/dp/B000N7FQD6
Besides, there was no "interruption" of the sound from either speaker.
The crackling was in addition to the regular sound and happened at the
peaks of volume.
> DerbyDad03 <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote in news:2964af91-c524-4a98-90d8-
> ecbe2341a...@o8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
It was stranded wire. This stuff...
http://www.amazon.com/RCA-100-24-Gauge-Speaker-Wire/dp/B000N7FQD6
Besides, there was no "interruption" of the sound from either speaker.
The crackling was in addition to the regular sound and happened at the
peaks of volume.
Han
Nov 19, 2012, 5:52:12 PM11/19/12
to
DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:929cb6a0-88ca-4f41...@h9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
So these were 24 gauge strands of wire, still if the strands were
partially broken, with high volum of the speakers, I could see
intermittent contacts that would cause crackling. Definitely, your
replacing the wires did eliminate the problem, so a defect in the wire is
highly likely. But this is a biochemist talking, not an EEE.
news:929cb6a0-88ca-4f41...@h9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
partially broken, with high volum of the speakers, I could see
intermittent contacts that would cause crackling. Definitely, your
replacing the wires did eliminate the problem, so a defect in the wire is
highly likely. But this is a biochemist talking, not an EEE.
Tony Hwang
Nov 19, 2012, 8:34:23 PM11/19/12
to
Is it eally a multi idependent channel amp. HT Amp? Not
El Cheapo stuff? You phased all the speakers?
gregz
Nov 19, 2012, 8:48:38 PM11/19/12
to
inductive effects, or both.
Greg
harry
Nov 20, 2012, 4:00:40 AM11/20/12
to
somewhere.
You sometimes get a break inside the insulation of the wire that is
not visible..
tra...@optonline.net
Nov 20, 2012, 9:27:10 AM11/20/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
On this rare occasion, I'd have to say I agree.
> - Show quoted text -
IMO, something like that, at one of the connection
points is more likely the cause. I don't see how
the wiring change could cause crackling sounds.
The biggest difference would be in the resistance
of the wire and that would result in less sound.
There are differences in capacitance too, but would
not expect that to be huge, nor would you expect it
to result in cracking type sound.
DerbyDad03
Nov 20, 2012, 1:55:03 PM11/20/12
to
On Nov 20, 9:27 am, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> to result in cracking type sound.- Hide quoted text -
at least question the loose connection/broken wire as the root cause.
How would a loose connection cause this to happen:
Environment:
- Volume is up high.
- Left rear speaker is crackling
- Right rear speaker is crackling
Action:
- Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
system.
Result:
- Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
- Right rear speaker stops crackling
Why would the right rear speaker stop crackling when the left rear
speaker wire is unplugged? Could the loose connection cause feedback
through the system (maybe through the ground?) and back out to the
rear speaker?
If the noise was ending up on the ground, wouldn't it also be present
at the front speakers, center speaker and sub-woofer? It never is.
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm not doubting anyone's assessment of the situation, but I have to
> - Show quoted text -
at least question the loose connection/broken wire as the root cause.
How would a loose connection cause this to happen:
Environment:
- Volume is up high.
- Left rear speaker is crackling
- Right rear speaker is crackling
Action:
- Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
system.
Result:
- Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
- Right rear speaker stops crackling
Why would the right rear speaker stop crackling when the left rear
speaker wire is unplugged? Could the loose connection cause feedback
through the system (maybe through the ground?) and back out to the
rear speaker?
If the noise was ending up on the ground, wouldn't it also be present
at the front speakers, center speaker and sub-woofer? It never is.
Arthur Shapiro
Nov 20, 2012, 2:19:53 PM11/20/12
to
In article <2964af91-c524-4a98...@o8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>What would cause that type of problem?
I'd guess that trying to drive long lengths of preposterously-undersized cable
>
>What would cause that type of problem?
caused a clipping problem. Even 16 guage was enough of an improvement that
the amplifier wasn't being pushed beyond its capability.
Art
Bill
Nov 20, 2012, 3:00:38 PM11/20/12
to
>
> Action:
>
> - Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
> system.
>
> Result:
>
> - Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
> - Right rear speaker stops crackling
>
Try leaving the first speaker connected and disconnect the
> Action:
>
> - Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
> system.
>
> Result:
>
> - Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
> - Right rear speaker stops crackling
>
other speaker.
Then a test is to run a different wire or wires along the
floor and see if those different wires eliminate
the problem.
Or try different speakers.
Or try a different amplifier.
Note: Wires which are run in a house can have nicks or shorts
if they have scraped something metal. Or a wire staple holding
the wire might be shorting it or shorting to a metal object
in the wall (grounding it).
Wires run close together for a long distance can "induce"
electricity in the other wire. Try using "shielded" wire.
This wire has foil around the wires like this...
http://www.indyav.com/product_images/i/182/182SC__17935.JPG
tra...@optonline.net
Nov 20, 2012, 3:53:21 PM11/20/12
to
each other, no? It would seem you could have pulled,
moved, etc the other wire too, no?
>
> If the noise was ending up on the ground, wouldn't it also be present
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't think you have a noise problem. As others have
> - Show quoted text -
said, I crackling that goes away after fiddling with wires
sure sounds like an intermittent connection.
DerbyDad03
Nov 20, 2012, 3:55:24 PM11/20/12
to
On Nov 20, 3:00 pm, Bill <Nomailors...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Action:
>
> > - Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
> > system.
>
> > Result:
>
> > - Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
> > - Right rear speaker stops crackling
...
> > Action:
>
> > - Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
> > system.
>
> > Result:
>
> > - Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
> > - Right rear speaker stops crackling
> Try leaving the first speaker connected and disconnect the
> other speaker.
rear, etc. is a better way to refer to them.
In any case, disconnecting speakers one at a time is how I narrowed it
down to the left rear channel as the problem.
>
> Then a test is to run a different wire or wires along the
> floor and see if those different wires eliminate
> the problem.
>
> Or try different speakers.
That's one of the very first things I tried by swapping the speakers
that came with the system. The problem stayed with the rear channels
regardless of which speakers I connected.
>
> Or try a different amplifier.
speakers and I didn't want to chance blowing them.
>
> Note: Wires which are run in a house can have nicks or shorts
> if they have scraped something metal. Or a wire staple holding
> the wire might be shorting it or shorting to a metal object
> in the wall (grounding it).
>
> Wires run close together for a long distance can "induce"
> electricity in the other wire. Try using "shielded" wire.
24g to 16g would eliminate the induction effect. It may have, since
the problem went away when I increased the wire size.
tra...@optonline.net
Nov 20, 2012, 4:01:58 PM11/20/12
to
unless you turn it up loud enough to do so. It's better
to have a 100W amp on speakers that can only handle
50W, than it is to have a 50W amp on speakers that
can handle 100W and turn the volume all the way up.
Very often the damage is not done
to the woofers, which take the most power, but to the
tweeters or midrange because when you overload an
amp, it clips. And the clipping produces harmonics
that are high frequency.
Oren
Nov 20, 2012, 4:32:29 PM11/20/12
to
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 06:27:10 -0800 (PST), "tra...@optonline.net"
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> > What would cause that type of problem?
>>
>> Crackling is usually caused by a loose connection or corrosion
>> somewhere.
>> You sometimes get a break inside the insulation of the wire that is
>> not visible..- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>
>On this rare occasion, I'd have to say I agree.
>IMO, something like that, at one of the connection
>points is more likely the cause.
My truck speakers "crackle". I'm in the door panel to fix an electric
<tra...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>> > What would cause that type of problem?
>>
>> Crackling is usually caused by a loose connection or corrosion
>> somewhere.
>> You sometimes get a break inside the insulation of the wire that is
>> not visible..- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>
>On this rare occasion, I'd have to say I agree.
>IMO, something like that, at one of the connection
>points is more likely the cause.
window motor and decided to pull the speaker out for inspection of the
connections.
The installer (aftermarket speakers) had crimps (two different sized
wires. One of the wires came out of the crimp with an ever so slight
tug on it.
I'll be soldering connectors on the original wire and removing the
"extension" they put on the wire, which is not necessary.
DerbyDad03
Nov 20, 2012, 4:45:12 PM11/20/12
to
On Nov 20, 4:01 pm, "trad...@optonline.net" <trad...@optonline.net>
> > the problem went away when I increased the wire size.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
testing needed to be done, I did not want to hook the speakers to an
amp that had the capability to blow the speakers at high volume.
Besides, my other amp is not a surround sound, so I couldn't test the
same set up.
Besides, besides, I was able to narrow down the problem, and eliminate
it, with the exact system and speakers I will be using. Once that was
done, there was no need to introduce another variable.
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
"You can't blow out speakers regardless of amp size unless you turn it
up loud enough to do so"
Right...and since the issue occurs at high volumes, which is where my
up loud enough to do so"
testing needed to be done, I did not want to hook the speakers to an
amp that had the capability to blow the speakers at high volume.
Besides, my other amp is not a surround sound, so I couldn't test the
same set up.
Besides, besides, I was able to narrow down the problem, and eliminate
it, with the exact system and speakers I will be using. Once that was
done, there was no need to introduce another variable.
DerbyDad03
Nov 20, 2012, 4:48:13 PM11/20/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
re: "It's better to have a 100W amp on speakers that can only handle
> - Show quoted text -
50W"
From a sound perspective, yes. However, unless you are the only one
that uses the system, you run the danger of kids/neighbors/drunken
buddies cranking the volume without knowing the limitation of the
speakers.
Sjouke Burry
Nov 20, 2012, 4:43:46 PM11/20/12
to
DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:80e6dd53-b404-4570...@y8g2000yqy.googlegroups.com:
This sounds like you have(at high volume) a High freq. oscillation,
swithcing on and off with sound level.
The thin wiring just acts as a filter and avoids oscillation.
Removing one speaker removes the feedback path.
Try putting a ferrite filter block around the speaker wires, like
the ones you find on the mains input lead on a lot of computer
equipment.
This HF oscillation can sound like crackeling, when going on/off
on speaker wiring.
news:80e6dd53-b404-4570...@y8g2000yqy.googlegroups.com:
swithcing on and off with sound level.
The thin wiring just acts as a filter and avoids oscillation.
Removing one speaker removes the feedback path.
Try putting a ferrite filter block around the speaker wires, like
the ones you find on the mains input lead on a lot of computer
equipment.
This HF oscillation can sound like crackeling, when going on/off
on speaker wiring.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 20, 2012, 8:01:33 PM11/20/12
to
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 10:55:03 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>I'm not doubting anyone's assessment of the situation, but I have to
>at least question the loose connection/broken wire as the root cause.
>
>How would a loose connection cause this to happen:
>
>Environment:
>
> - Volume is up high.
> - Left rear speaker is crackling
> - Right rear speaker is crackling
>
>Action:
>
> - Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
>system.
>
>Result:
>
> - Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
> - Right rear speaker stops crackling
>
>Why would the right rear speaker stop crackling when the left rear
>speaker wire is unplugged? Could the loose connection cause feedback
>through the system (maybe through the ground?) and back out to the
>rear speaker?
>
>If the noise was ending up on the ground, wouldn't it also be present
>at the front speakers, center speaker and sub-woofer? It never is.
We do not know enough about your system to say with any certainty -
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:
>
>I'm not doubting anyone's assessment of the situation, but I have to
>at least question the loose connection/broken wire as the root cause.
>
>How would a loose connection cause this to happen:
>
>Environment:
>
> - Volume is up high.
> - Left rear speaker is crackling
> - Right rear speaker is crackling
>
>Action:
>
> - Unplug the left rear speaker wire from the back the surround sound
>system.
>
>Result:
>
> - Left rear speaker goes dead (of course)
> - Right rear speaker stops crackling
>
>Why would the right rear speaker stop crackling when the left rear
>speaker wire is unplugged? Could the loose connection cause feedback
>through the system (maybe through the ground?) and back out to the
>rear speaker?
>
>If the noise was ending up on the ground, wouldn't it also be present
>at the front speakers, center speaker and sub-woofer? It never is.
but a bad onnection on one output CAN cause noise on the other channel
of the same amplifier - so if you have a "bi-amped" system, where the
front and rear use separate amps, the interference would not affect
the front speakers.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Nov 20, 2012, 8:07:29 PM11/20/12
to
On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 12:00:38 -0800, Bill <Nomail...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Sheilding is not usually required - but twisted pair cable is
DEFINITEY recommended. It eliminates "common mode" noise.
wrote:
DEFINITEY recommended. It eliminates "common mode" noise.
gregz
Nov 20, 2012, 8:40:53 PM11/20/12
to
common mode noise. Twisted brings it up in higher frequency rejection, and
when run with other close pairs in close proximity.
Along with my unstable comment, that would include oscillations as
mentioned by another poster.
Bigger amp, less prone to stability problems.
Ferrite core, may or may not help. Adding series resistor may help.
Seems like you best need to stay with larger gauge wire.
Greg
DerbyDad03
Nov 20, 2012, 11:54:39 PM11/20/12
to
gregz <ze...@comcast.net> wrote:
...snip...
messing it with it anymore.
...snip...
>
> Twisted is not going to be better than close pairs. Close pairs eliminates
> common mode noise. Twisted brings it up in higher frequency rejection, and
> when run with other close pairs in close proximity.
>
> Along with my unstable comment, that would include oscillations as
> mentioned by another poster.
>
> Bigger amp, less prone to stability problems.
>
> Ferrite core, may or may not help. Adding series resistor may help.
>
> Seems like you best need to stay with larger gauge wire.
>
> Greg
Seem like that to me too. It's working fine with the 16g, so I'm not
> Twisted is not going to be better than close pairs. Close pairs eliminates
> common mode noise. Twisted brings it up in higher frequency rejection, and
> when run with other close pairs in close proximity.
>
> Along with my unstable comment, that would include oscillations as
> mentioned by another poster.
>
> Bigger amp, less prone to stability problems.
>
> Ferrite core, may or may not help. Adding series resistor may help.
>
> Seems like you best need to stay with larger gauge wire.
>
> Greg
messing it with it anymore.
Bob F
Nov 24, 2012, 2:23:22 PM11/24/12
to
turn up the volume to it, and the amp starts clipping?
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