Tile ? - Art, Others
Rich
Bill McCall <wldwi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uyFL4.49292$y4.17...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Hi Art, Others
>
> You've helped me in the past so I am going straight to you for this one...
> I just had my tub/shower area tiled. I was under the impression that the
> line between the tub and first layer of tile should not be grouted but
> caulked instead. When my guys were done grouting, they had that space
> grouted. They said that's the way they do it. What's your opinion? Should
it
> have been caulked? Should I wait to see if it cracks and crumbles, then
dig
> it out and caulk it when the time comes? What about going over it neatly
> with clear silicone caulk now?
It's fine grouted. Go over it with a quality tub and tile
water clean-up caulking. NOT 100% silicone. Pure
silicone doesn't do well in standing water which is what
you'll have laying around the ledge of your tub.
Just do a fine layer of caulking over the grout and if
done right and allowed to dry a few days, it will last
for years and will be easier than silicone to scratch out
and redo in several years. Most new jobs settle and
crack at the corners and tub, so a re-caulk over time
will probably be necessary.
Pure silicone works on vertical surfaces but usually
fails where water lays. It even says on the silicone
label not to use in standing water.
Rich
Bill McCall
You've helped me in the past so I am going straight to you for this one...
I just had my tub/shower area tiled. I was under the impression that the
line between the tub and first layer of tile should not be grouted but
caulked instead. When my guys were done grouting, they had that space
grouted. They said that's the way they do it. What's your opinion? Should it
have been caulked? Should I wait to see if it cracks and crumbles, then dig
it out and caulk it when the time comes? What about going over it neatly
with clear silicone caulk now?
Thank you,
Bill McCall
Simi Valley, CA USA
re...@pegasystems.com
good quality latex caulk. You'll be sorry if you don't. You do have
concrete board behind it right?
-Rob
In article <uyFL4.49292$y4.17...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rich
art james <go...@noon.orsooner> wrote in message
> substrate so my installations are solid. if it happens that a fine
hairline
> crack shows up it's much easier to refill it with grout once than to have
to
> dig the caulking out every 2 years because of mildew etc.
Are you saying that grout doesn't mildew?
Caulking won't mildew if it's wiped off after
showering, and "every two years" is a stretch.
Modern caulks are finer products than unsanded
grout which crumbles, mildews and stains,
especially in the corners and at the tub/tile joint.
New tile jobs ultimately will get hairline cracks
in the corners and at the tub, and caulking them
when new (properly) will keep it looking great
for 'many' years. If it isn't caulked, the cracks
will develop, go unfixed, and THEN you're
talking mildew that is hard to stop when it gets
deep into the cracks.
I know that your answer is a true mud-job,
but few homeowners will pay for that nor
can they find a tileman that will do it.
One argument I have against mud-jobs is
that they are almost impossible to change
when the tile color goes out of style in
approx 10-15 years. Sure, I've busted out
a few dozens of them but it costs the customer
an arm and a leg because of the difficulty of
it. Changing out a job done with durock
is much easier when the styles change from
4x4 mauve to 8x10 black and white.
Personally as a tileman I understand the
durability of a mud job but I wouldn't do
one in my own home because it's too darn
permanent, and a long lasting cementboard
job would do just as well.
I've left many a customer saddened to know
that their durable-for-100-years mud-job
is built like a brick poop house and they're
stuck with it for life. They just need to get
used to that yellow and blue tile because they
can't afford to change it.
Rich
Rich
art james <go...@noon.orsooner> wrote in message
> squat about tile work in an effort to defend the silly putty approach to
> tile work you make soem pretty sill comments:
Were you sober when you wrote that? I can't even understand
that last sentence.
You never addressed the question... Are saying grout doesn't
mildew? That is what started my rant. So...does grout mildew
or not? You appear to claim it doesn't, I say it does.
> "few homeowners will pay for a mud job"? funny..i find that all my
> customers (mostly homeowners) want a mortar substrate
Oh right, and I'll bet you're customers are the "average" people
who frequent a "do-it-yourself" group such as this.
You are working for people paying a couple grand for a shower,
and this group is answering questions from a *totally* different
clientel...people who want to do it themselves and who often
say they don't have much money.
I'll stand by my statement that few people will pay the extra
money for a mud job since most of us have come out of the
dark ages and use cementboard modern substitutes for that
old installation method. I've never had a cementboard job
fail, they are as sound as a mud job if done right.
> and as for caulking
> i've seen tile men flat run off of jobs for using that silly putty.
Well in Florida where houses are built on sand, the settling
is incredible in the first year. There is no way to keep the
grout stable in the corners and at the tub surface. Caulking
works quite well and *does* last for years. What kind of
crap caulk jobs are you talking about that don't last? Not mine.
> the
> stuff's crap. and it does not "last years".
Oh yes it does!
> hang around a while and you can
> answer the posts from people asking for advice on how to scrape the shit
out
> and what they can do about the nasty ass mess it is to have to keep it
"up".
Of course there are crap caulk jobs because people do the jobs
right over top of the soap scum. I see it all the time. That's why
I've taken the time to help people to do it right so it lasts.
> "a mud job is too darn permanent". now i've heard it all....if that's the
> caliber of customer you expect and look for then i can see why caulking
and
> imitation mortar board are your forte. there are pro tile contractors who
> choose to deal with people who 'can' afford to change their tile/stone
even
> though most never do because actually the types, colors and styles of tile
> not to mention the marble and granite this type of customer prefers ands
> uses does not go out of style but it's elegance transcends the fads and
> fashions of 'yellow and blue' 50'-70s tract home fashion.
What a bunch of bull. First, marble and granite on tub and shower
walls make up about .01% of the market, so to bring it up as an
argument is silly. Second, WHAT tile, style, colors, and size were
used 20 years ago by these "super smart rich" people that still are
in style? I'm interested to know. The tiles that are most popular
now did not even exist 20 years ago...8x10 wall tiles with 3X8
border and deco pieces, large interlocking various sized floor tiles
on walls with decorative inserts, large stone look tiles etc. These
things weren't around in the early 80's, so what magic tiles were
you using in 1980?
And as for the "trac homes" comment, not only was it
elitist, but I've got news for you...I've worked for
hundreds of the rich on the keys of Florida, and they
used the same colors and sizes as the trac homes!
The fact is, what's "in" for the common people in
1975 was "in" for the rich!
White is about the only color that remains constantly
in style.
> and don't forget the 'pledge' for a sealer....
It works better than the commercial sealers.
Besides, I don't believe in or use sealers. Grout
by itself is designed to work properly if installed
right.
What a jerk to take a simple post I made a month
ago and throw it back at me. I've seen you make
a bunch of stupid comments and statements since
then...should I act like a high school kid and jab
you with them also?
You also were UNcouteous to take the pledge
comment out of context. That was directed to
a person who had a brand-new shower. I would
never recommend pledge to use in an existing
shower because of the present soap scum it would
cover and lock in, but to seal a brand new cured
never-used job, it works great, particularly if
applied often and used as a cleaner. Sure it's
not conventional but showers get very dirty
and scummy...the pledge is better than nothing.
I guess I don't understand why an elitist tileman
who recommends "tear it out and hire a professional
to do a mud-job" as a response to half the poor
questioning public is posting in a group like this,
where the average question is from a do-it-yourselfer
who wants a practical answer.
Rich
Dimitri
To sell a customer on the impermanence of something is ludicrous. People
like permanence, but are often just unwilling to pay for it.
Question: how long will it last?
"Maybe 10 years"
Most often heard answers? "That's fine, I'll be dead by then" or "We
don't plan on staying that long".
Fact: People on averge move every 7 years. Permanance is not always a
selling point.
Most people will remodel a bathroom twice in their life. And the tile
most often gets changed only due to water damage.
I've never had anyone just "want" to change tile colors.
I wouldn't have sold many $5,000 Corian countertops if everyone was
concerned with changing things down the road.
My opinion: cement board works fine. Hasn't proved otherwise.
I like the Pledge technique. It's amazing what will work in a pinch. As
a preference?-no.
I don't think it was stated as such.
Cheap caulk sucks, best caulk professionally applied lasts a long time
and is more sanitary than grout. Sandy foundations, vibration?- caulk
it.
And you both evidently have two different markets / clientele that
demand different perspectives.
Just my opinion.
Rich wrote:
>
Dimitri
art james wrote:
>
> Dimitri wrote:
> >
> > selling point.
>
> who said anything about 'selling point'? fact is i can float most mortar
> subtrates quicker and cheaper than any of the wonderboard jockeys can go to
> the homey despot store, buy the imitation mortar board crap, nail it up and
> then fight the out of plumb, bowed stud, and uneven wall conditions (that
> i've eliminated by floating mortar) when attempting to install the tile.
> besides what's using imitation mortar boards got to do with permanence? what
> are you saying, that you installed something that can be changed out like
> your changing the color of the paint on the walls of your house? i fail to
> see that point.
No, you missed my point. I do not agree with installing or selling
products that are touted as "easily changed" . I said that was
ludicrous.
Art, you are absolutely correct, and of course you know that. If the
walls are screwed up, then you might as well mud it to even it out.
I think it's becoming a lost art in certain regions. Not many people
want to be bothered with screeds and so forth.
I've mudded quite a few times myself, but I also have used cement board
on good quality construction and that has worked every bit as well.
In my experience.
> >
> > Most people will remodel a bathroom twice in their life. And the tile
> > most often gets changed only due to water damage.
>
> ah yes...water damage. invariably i've found in 30 years of tile work that
> water damage is due to inferior substrates or inferior workmanship. and of
> course with showers the old methods of preventing water penetration by using
> comp-tite or other products for shower pan membranes. then the greenboard
> days hit like a whirlwind and of course there were all those 'pros' that
> touted the benfits of that as well. now there's a case for impermanence....
No, I'd disagree, water damage most often comes from the top surface
failing. i.e. the TILE.
Bad tile jobs, which let moisture through to inferior substrates. But
the tile installation fails first.
Dimitri
art james wrote:
>
> > No, I'd disagree, water damage most often comes from the top surface
> > failing. i.e. the TILE.
> > Bad tile jobs, which let moisture through to inferior substrates. But
> > the tile installation fails first.
>
> please explain? "the TILE" fails?
Read it again.
The tile INSTALLATION fails. For example: not sealed properly at tub
line.
Bill McCall
that. The grout lines are 1/8" using sanded grout. To do it all over again,
I would have the tile guy float the entire thing like he would have
rathered. I installed the cement board before having him bid the job trying
to save some money. Thanks for the help thus far.
Bill
> > I was under the impression that the
> > line between the tub and first layer of tile should not be grouted but
> > caulked instead. When my guys were done grouting, they had that space
> > grouted. They said that's the way they do it. What's your opinion?
> 2 questions. what is the substrate? is it tight joint unsanded grout or
> spaced joint with sanded grout?
art james
curious..if you don't mind how much was the difference in price between
mortar and what you got.
Rich
Dimitri <dia...@the-spa.com> wrote in message
news:39057ED8...@the-spa.com...
This isn't the Great Art, it's only the lowly rich.
Showers fail because drywall is used and it is run so low that it
ends up lower than the shower floor lever. Then the water wicks
up about 18", rots and falls apart in 7-12 years.
Curbs are made of drywall over wood, then cornerbeaded
with metal bead, then muded with joint compound.
The grout finally separates over time, water gets in, rusts
and expands the bead, turns the drywall and joint compound
to mush, and falls apart.
Tub problems come from drywall around the tub spout and fixtures,
with no caulking to stop the water from getting behind the fixtures
and rotting the drywall. Also, drywall, which shouldn't be used
in the first place, is run right down smack on the tub because the
stupid drywaller was too lazy to hold it up and inch before
fastening it like he's supposed to (look at any drawing of how
the tub/wallboard/tile is supposed to be installed).
By running the drywall onto the tub, when water gets behind
the tile as it lays on the tub, it wicks up and damages the
drywall.
Another common failure is from a window sill when made
of drywall. Once the grout starts to come loose, water gets
in and wicks down the wall and around the window area.
Often the entire wall below a window is mush.
Rich
Dimitri
I like the ones personally where you can't find the water problem and it
turns out to be a pin-hole leak in the show head riser or something.
Speaking of water:
I had another fun water problem last month. Seems the guy who installed
a closet wire shelf system drilled right into the plastic waste pipe.
The plumber wall all set to tear out the walls to check each joint.
Oddly not 2 weeks earlier a customer called me with a similar complaint
of water into basement down an exterior wall. Same thing-plumber was
dumbfounded and we were looking at a large repair. Only after talking
outside with the customer in front of the exterior wall where the pipe
was located, did I notice a small 1/4" patched plug in the siding. I
asked him what that was from- as there was one every stud bay. He had
called the pesticide folks. Did the leak start at about the same time?
"Yes".
The guy drilled right into the waste pipe.
I'm sure you've seen a few crazy things yourself.
D
--
Panta Design
http://www.the-spa.com/diablo/panta.htm
Rich
art james <go...@noon.orsooner> wrote in message
> Bill McCall wrote:
> >
> > > > The substrate is 1/2" greenboard over the studs with 1/2" cement
board
> > over
> > > > that. The grout lines are 1/8" using sanded grout. To do it all over
> > again,
> > > > I would have the tile guy float the entire thing like he would have
> > > > rathered. I installed the cement board before having him bid the job
> > trying
> > > > to save some money. Thanks for the help thus far.
> >
between
> > > mortar and what you got.
> >
the
> > whole thing. When I told him that I had already hung Durock myself, he
was
> > hesitant to even look at the job but he did come over and said that my
> > install was okay, not the route he would have chosen, but he could work
with
> > it. He charged me $700 to tile the three walls around my tub/shower as
well
> > as two shampoo shelves that I had built in to the corner which turned
out to
> > be tricky tile work but came out very nice. It was $350 to do my sink
top
> > and backsplash which he did float completely. That also came out
beautiful.
> > --
> > Bill McCall
> > Simi Valley, CA USA
>
wall
> tub to 5' high
5' high???? That's all you do? Why not go to the ceiling?
>w/all standard tile and materials would run around $850.00 in
> my area.
Where are you...NYC? What a ripoff. The same cementboard
install would run under $600 for the same lifetime tub area,
done to the ceiling. We have drop ceilings here which are
about 7' high over the tubs.
No wonder you don't want to do cementboard, I understand
now....you'd have to charge less money. I knew there had
to be a reason you would speak against so fine a product
and push those high priced mud-jobs.
And Bill..you got ripped off. $700 to tile 3 walls and fix
a couple shelves? That's about a 5 hour job. Great pay
for a simple tile job.
Rich- California here I come...
Bill McCall
Rich
art james <go...@noon.orsooner> wrote
about the great Florida Real Tileman:
> ...you are a one bucket helperless fix-it man.
Wow, that was quite a flame.
Rich
Rich
art james <go...@noon.orsooner> wrote
> criminy sakes...i've been telling you all along there is no comparison.
but
> just so you don't implode with with selfrighteous indignation at the
> terrible ripoff we california tile contractors
Aha, California, the land of fruits and nuts.
Like totally dood.
No wonder you have to do mud jobs over wire
lath, the stupid hills slide down over there
and the earth shakes.
Rich