I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
case everything in the box is tight.
Could a bad florescent bulb or fixture cause all four lamps to
flicker? How about a bad breaker?
Any other thoughts?
I wish it wasn't so intermittent so that I could track it down easier.
A couple of days between each episode is a real pain.
> I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
> The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
> lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
> fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
> these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
> I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
> the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
> case everything in the box is tight.
Check each device in the circuit for loose connections. Replace
anything with backstab connections (where the wire is just stabbed into
a slot) with devices with screw terminals and ensure that connections
are tight.
I had this issue on a circuit at my rental, wired circa 1957 or so.
Wire nuts weren't used to tie wires together--they were crimped and then a cap was put over the crimp. With the wires live, poking at the 3 crimped hot wires in the box caused the lights to flicker (and another circuit to go completely dead).
Pulling the cap off, the wires appeared to be crimped very well, but they were still loose in the crimp.
And I have to agree with Bob in the previous post. I quit using the "backstab" on outlets and switches over 20 years ago.
> > I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
> > The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
> > lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
> > fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
> > these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
> > I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
> > the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
> > case everything in the box is tight.
> Check each device in the circuit for loose connections. Replace
> anything with backstab connections (where the wire is just stabbed into
> a slot) with devices with screw terminals and ensure that connections
> are tight.
There is not a backstab receptacle or switch anywhere in my house.
When it happens again, I plan to unplug each fixture one at a time to
see what happens. Unfortunately it doesn't happen for a long enough
time during each occurrence for me to have time to do much unplugging,
powering off, etc. The fixtures flicker for about 15 seconds, barely
enough time for me to get out of the recliner.
I may swap some lamps around from different circuits to see if I can
"move" the problem and narrow it down to a particular device. For the
basement florescents, that's going to mean extension cords and the
loss of the use of the switches. It's just a PITA since it could be
days before it happens again.
>I had this issue on a circuit at my rental, wired circa 1957 or so.
> Wire nuts weren't used to tie wires together--they were crimped and then a > cap was put over the crimp. With the wires live, poking at the 3 crimped > hot wires in the box caused the lights to flicker (and another circuit to > go completely dead).
> Pulling the cap off, the wires appeared to be crimped very well, but they > were still loose in the crimp.
If they were solid instead of stranded wires, the crimps do not hold very well. Wire nuts seem to work ok on solid or stranded wire.
<teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:
>On Nov 19, 3:32 pm, Bob <RBF1147...@YAH0O.COM> wrote:
>> On 11/19/2012 11:56, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> > I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
>> > The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
>> > lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
>> > fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
>> > these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
>> > I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
>> > the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
>> > case everything in the box is tight.
>> Check each device in the circuit for loose connections. Replace
>> anything with backstab connections (where the wire is just stabbed into
>> a slot) with devices with screw terminals and ensure that connections
>> are tight.
>There is not a backstab receptacle or switch anywhere in my house.
>When it happens again, I plan to unplug each fixture one at a time to
>see what happens. Unfortunately it doesn't happen for a long enough
>time during each occurrence for me to have time to do much unplugging,
>powering off, etc. The fixtures flicker for about 15 seconds, barely
>enough time for me to get out of the recliner.
>I may swap some lamps around from different circuits to see if I can
>"move" the problem and narrow it down to a particular device. For the
>basement florescents, that's going to mean extension cords and the
>loss of the use of the switches. It's just a PITA since it could be
>days before it happens again.
Is it possible it is happening outside your house (ie, a brown-out)?
You may only be noticing the one circuit because it has the lights on
it and that it what gets noticed. If it is just that one circuit, I
think you are on the right track suspecting a loose connection in the
panel (or a box closer to the panel than the first flickering light)
or a bad breaker. It could be a bad fixture but that seems less
likely. Good luck.
Pat <p...@nospam.us> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 13:20:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
> <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:
>> On Nov 19, 3:32 pm, Bob <RBF1147...@YAH0O.COM> wrote:
>>> On 11/19/2012 11:56, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
>>>> The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
>>>> lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
>>>> fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
>>>> these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
>>>> I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
>>>> the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
>>>> case everything in the box is tight.
>>> Check each device in the circuit for loose connections. Replace
>>> anything with backstab connections (where the wire is just stabbed into
>>> a slot) with devices with screw terminals and ensure that connections
>>> are tight.
>> There is not a backstab receptacle or switch anywhere in my house.
>> When it happens again, I plan to unplug each fixture one at a time to
>> see what happens. Unfortunately it doesn't happen for a long enough
>> time during each occurrence for me to have time to do much unplugging,
>> powering off, etc. The fixtures flicker for about 15 seconds, barely
>> enough time for me to get out of the recliner.
>> I may swap some lamps around from different circuits to see if I can
>> "move" the problem and narrow it down to a particular device. For the
>> basement florescents, that's going to mean extension cords and the
>> loss of the use of the switches. It's just a PITA since it could be
>> days before it happens again.
> Is it possible it is happening outside your house (ie, a brown-out)?
> You may only be noticing the one circuit because it has the lights on
> it and that it what gets noticed. If it is just that one circuit, I
> think you are on the right track suspecting a loose connection in the
> panel (or a box closer to the panel than the first flickering light)
> or a bad breaker. It could be a bad fixture but that seems less
> likely. Good luck.
> Pat
I called the neighbor and asked him if he had experienced any flickering
lights. He's another DIY'er and an engineer, so I know he would have
noticed. He said no.
I also ran upstairs yesterday and checked another circuit while it was
happening and didn't notice a flicker. We'll keep looking...
Friend of mine had flickering lights. The answer turned out to be to remove the double 100 breaker where the power comes in. Switch it off, unsnap it from the panel. Don't touch the big feed wire. Sand the bus bar with emery cloth, and scrape with screw driver end. Big hit of No=Al=Ox and put it back on. Use flashlights, and due caution.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org .
"DerbyDad03" <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote in message
I called the neighbor and asked him if he had experienced any flickering
lights. He's another DIY'er and an engineer, so I know he would have
noticed. He said no.
I also ran upstairs yesterday and checked another circuit while it was
happening and didn't notice a flicker. We'll keep looking...
A fluorescent tube that's nearing the end of it's life will flicker and
"roll" and do stuff that it doesn't do when it's in good condition, but
it won't cause other lights to flicker.
I expect the problem is more likely to be that there are power surges in
the electric power being supplied to your house. You don't see the
effects of those surges on appliances like TV sets and computers because
TV sets and computers have large capacitors in their power supplies to
"smooth out" the voltage and current they supply to the appliance.
Maybe before you do any more on this:
1. talk to your neighbors to see if they've noticed their lights
flickering too, and
2. on your lights, turn the lights off, take the bulbs and/or tubes out,
and clean the contacts on both the bulbs and tubes and inside the
sockets. You can use electrical contact cleaner for this.
> I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
> The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
> lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
> fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
> these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
> I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
> the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
> case everything in the box is tight.
> Could a bad florescent bulb or fixture cause all four lamps to
> flicker? How about a bad breaker?
> Any other thoughts?
> I wish it wasn't so intermittent so that I could track it down easier.
> A couple of days between each episode is a real pain.
Look at the ballasts and see what the environment operating temperature is. Most indoor ballasts are designed to reliably start the lamps at 40 F. For outdoor or unheated shed applications you can get 0 F ballasts. One thing that is often overlooked is grounding the metal fixture housing. Believe it or not, in cooler temperatures above 40 F
a fluorescent tube fixture may not light if the metal housing is not grounded. O_o
<teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:
>I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
>The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
>lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
>fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
>these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
>I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
>the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
>case everything in the box is tight.
>Could a bad florescent bulb or fixture cause all four lamps to
>flicker? How about a bad breaker?
>Any other thoughts?
>I wish it wasn't so intermittent so that I could track it down easier.
>A couple of days between each episode is a real pain.
Replace the breaker first. They are under $10, and if it's not bad, it
never hurts to have a spare on hand. Be sure to check the neutral
connection in the breaker box too.
On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 11:56:38 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote:
>I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
>The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
>lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
>fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
>these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
>I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
>the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
>case everything in the box is tight.
That is where I would start. If it is just one circuit, remove the
wire and take a look at it. You may even see some black spots if it
is loose. Clean and replace.
>Could a bad florescent bulb or fixture cause all four lamps to
>flicker?
Doubtful, but strange things sometimes do happen.
> How about a bad breaker?
Possible
>Any other thoughts?
>I wish it wasn't so intermittent so that I could track it down easier.
>A couple of days between each episode is a real pain.
I had a similar situation. One circuit would go out every few weeks,
sometimes a flicker, other times just out. . Resetting the breaker
seemed to fix it so I was going to replace the breaker. Turns out to
be a loose connection and the breaker is OK.
Resetting the breaker was just enough of a movement to make a good
contact again.
>A fluorescent tube that's nearing the end of it's life will flicker and
>"roll" and do stuff that it doesn't do when it's in good condition, but
>it won't cause other lights to flicker.
But it might make them appear to if they are all in the same room. My
first stab would be to swap that shoplight with one someplace else and
see if the problem continues.
<nestork.af09...@diybanter.com> wrote:
>2. on your lights, turn the lights off, take the bulbs and/or tubes out,
>and clean the contacts on both the bulbs and tubes and inside the
>sockets. You can use electrical contact cleaner for this.
Walking by a lamp one day I heard a 'sizzling sound. Removed the bulb
and found what seemed to have been arching at the contacts in the
socket. Shined the end of the bulb and the brass contact at the bottom
with a bit of sand paper. With a pic I lifted the brass contact a tad.
Replaced cleaned the bulb, which was better seated in the socket.
Would a dying switch in a lamp cause intermittent problems, anybody?
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2012 00:47:33 +0000, nestork
> <nestork.af09...@diybanter.com> wrote:
>> 2. on your lights, turn the lights off, take the bulbs and/or tubes out,
>> and clean the contacts on both the bulbs and tubes and inside the
>> sockets. You can use electrical contact cleaner for this.
> Walking by a lamp one day I heard a 'sizzling sound. Removed the bulb
> and found what seemed to have been arching at the contacts in the
> socket. Shined the end of the bulb and the brass contact at the bottom
> with a bit of sand paper. With a pic I lifted the brass contact a tad.
> Replaced cleaned the bulb, which was better seated in the socket.
> Would a dying switch in a lamp cause intermittent problems, anybody?
Of course it could.
The switch could have been damaged by the heat generated by the arcing.
> On 11/19/2012 1:56 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
>> The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
>> lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
>> fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
>> these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
>> I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
>> the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
>> case everything in the box is tight.
>> Could a bad florescent bulb or fixture cause all four lamps to
>> flicker? How about a bad breaker?
>> Any other thoughts?
>> I wish it wasn't so intermittent so that I could track it down easier.
>> A couple of days between each episode is a real pain.
> Look at the ballasts and see what the environment operating temperature
> is. Most indoor ballasts are designed to reliably start the lamps at
> 40°F. For outdoor or unheated shed applications you can get 0°F ballasts.
> One thing that is often overlooked is grounding the metal fixture
> housing. Believe it or not, in cooler temperatures above 40°F
> a fluorescent tube fixture may not light if the metal housing is not grounded. O_o
> TDD
The fluorescents have been working fine in their current location for over
15 years with just the normal bulb changes. They are also grounded. Plus
the flickering isn't on startup, when it happens, it happens after they are
warmed up.
Besides, I don't think a cold starting problem with a fluorescent fixture
would cause 2 incandescent fixtures to flicker, would it?
nestork <nestork.af09...@diybanter.com> wrote:
> A fluorescent tube that's nearing the end of it's life will flicker and
> "roll" and do stuff that it doesn't do when it's in good condition, but
> it won't cause other lights to flicker.
> I expect the problem is more likely to be that there are power surges in
> the electric power being supplied to your house. You don't see the
> effects of those surges on appliances like TV sets and computers because
> TV sets and computers have large capacitors in their power supplies to
> "smooth out" the voltage and current they supply to the appliance.
> Maybe before you do any more on this:
> 1. talk to your neighbors to see if they've noticed their lights
> flickering too, and
Already did...no flickering.
> 2. on your lights, turn the lights off, take the bulbs and/or tubes out,
> and clean the contacts on both the bulbs and tubes and inside the
> sockets. You can use electrical contact cleaner for this.
So you're saying that the fluorescents won't cause other lamps to flicker,
but I should clean the bulbs and sockets on all four fixtures? Does that
mean you're saying that dirty incandescents can cause the fluorescents to
flicker? Or are you saying that all four fixtures are flickering because
they're all dirty?
You know what, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying the cause might be.
BTW...I turned all fixtures on over 6 hours ago and nothing has flickered
all night.
> The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky-finger.net> wrote:
>> On 11/19/2012 1:56 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
>>> The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
>>> lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
>>> fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
>>> these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
>>> I plan to remove the breaker box cover and check the connections at
>>> the breaker and neutral bus, but I'm looking for other suggestions in
>>> case everything in the box is tight.
>>> Could a bad florescent bulb or fixture cause all four lamps to
>>> flicker? How about a bad breaker?
>>> Any other thoughts?
>>> I wish it wasn't so intermittent so that I could track it down easier.
>>> A couple of days between each episode is a real pain.
>> Look at the ballasts and see what the environment operating temperature
>> is. Most indoor ballasts are designed to reliably start the lamps at
>> 40°F. For outdoor or unheated shed applications you can get 0°F ballasts.
>> One thing that is often overlooked is grounding the metal fixture
>> housing. Believe it or not, in cooler temperatures above 40°F
>> a fluorescent tube fixture may not light if the metal housing is not grounded. O_o
>> TDD
> The fluorescents have been working fine in their current location for over
> 15 years with just the normal bulb changes. They are also grounded. Plus
> the flickering isn't on startup, when it happens, it happens after they are
> warmed up.
> Besides, I don't think a cold starting problem with a fluorescent fixture
> would cause 2 incandescent fixtures to flicker, would it?
Oh no, I didn't realize that your incandescent lights were flickering too. My mistake for failure to grok your situation. If the power is
daisy chained through other devices, you may have a bad wire nut or wiring device with a bad internal or external connection. Hopefully
there is no (shudder) aluminum Romex in your home. I often use The
Jesus Method to find breakers and the smoke test to find bad connections
but you really need to have experience and spotters on hand to use the
smoke test. It would surprise you to know that many bad connections can be found by listening to the various junctions when a circuit is loaded to maximum capacity just short of tripping the circuit breaker. I have an ultrasonic leak detector and infrared thermometer I've used to find
bad connections or malfunctioning breakers. Years ago, I worked for an
electrical contracting company that started using real time thermal imaging to detect malfunctioning equipment and bad connections. A good
infrared thermometer is cost effective for a home owner to purchase these days with the ultrasonic detectors being a bit expensive and thermal imagers being too costly for a do-it-yourselfer to justify the
expense with even the least costly commercially available units. There
is a fellow who came up with a home-brew add on for an iPhone. ^_^
>It would surprise you to know that many bad connections can be found by >listening to the various junctions when a circuit is loaded to maximum capacity >just short of tripping the circuit breaker.
Long ago we had a break in an underground line at work. A whole section of the campus was without power. The line ran a long distance through a wooded area and was the ancient concentric conductor style. (shield was conductor, not ground)
We had a specialist come in with something he called a "thumper." Apparently it is pulsed high voltage DC. It makes a noise like a gunshot when it arcs over the break, allowing you to locate it.
This time it didn't work. After a number of pulses it stopped arcing. The break had welded itself together. It can't have been much of a connection but it held a few years until the line was scheduled for replacement anyway.
On Nov 21, 8:05 am, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
> >It would surprise you to know that many bad connections can be found by >listening to the various junctions when a circuit is loaded to maximum capacity >just short of tripping the circuit breaker.
> Long ago we had a break in an underground line at work. A whole section of the campus was without power. The line ran a long distance through a wooded area and was the ancient concentric conductor style. (shield was conductor, not ground)
> We had a specialist come in with something he called a "thumper." Apparently it is pulsed high voltage DC. It makes a noise like a gunshot when it arcs over the break, allowing you to locate it.
> This time it didn't work. After a number of pulses it stopped arcing. The break had welded itself together. It can't have been much of a connection but it held a few years until the line was scheduled for replacement anyway.
If you weren't able to locate it, how do you know the break had welded
itself together?
>> It would surprise you to know that many bad connections can be
>> found by >listening to the various junctions when a circuit is
>> loaded to maximum capacity >just short of tripping the circuit
>> breaker.
> Long ago we had a break in an underground line at work. A whole
> section of the campus was without power. The line ran a long
> distance through a wooded area and was the ancient concentric
> conductor style. (shield was conductor, not ground)
> We had a specialist come in with something he called a "thumper."
> Apparently it is pulsed high voltage DC. It makes a noise like a
> gunshot when it arcs over the break, allowing you to locate it.
> This time it didn't work. After a number of pulses it stopped
> arcing. The break had welded itself together. It can't have been
> much of a connection but it held a few years until the line was
> scheduled for replacement anyway.
I assume this underground line was a 4160 line? Back in the late 80's I was working out in the Marshall Islands where the underground power distribution was all 4160 since the largest island was only 3 miles long
and 1/2 mile wide. We ran 15kv rated cable with a semiconductor shield
because of the salt water conditions were everything was required to be
overbuilt so it would hold up. The guys who ran the power plants had connections and splices explode on several occasions because of the salt water getting into the insulation down in the manholes. O_o
> I've got a flickering light problem to track down.
> The circuit has a few living room outlets on it with 2 incandescent
> lamps plugged in and a couple of 4' florescent shop-light style
> fixtures in the basement. Three times in the past week or so, all 4 of
> these fixtures started flickering for few minutes and then stopped.
It appears to have been a bad breaker. I swapped the wires between 2
breakers and the flickering moved to the other circuit almost immediately.
It was a dual breaker and it looks like one breaker went bad.
The circuit that was flickering probably gets more use than any other
circuit in the house. There's a couple of living room receptacles with
lamps plugged in, the basement ceiling fluorescents, 2nd floor landing
light, basement landing light, kitchen ceiling fixture, etc. These are
lights that are used every day for hours at a time.
Anyway, I changed the breaker. Since it was an intermittent problem, we'll
wait and see, but I'm pretty sure the problem's been solved.
Thanks for the field report. We can learn from your experience.
A friend of mine has been having nussiance trips on the kitchen circuit. I've got a breaker to put in, but not been able to schedule. I suspect he needs more circuits in the kitchen.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org .
"DerbyDad03" <teamarr...@eznet.net> wrote in message
It appears to have been a bad breaker. I swapped the wires between 2
breakers and the flickering moved to the other circuit almost immediately.
It was a dual breaker and it looks like one breaker went bad.
The circuit that was flickering probably gets more use than any other
circuit in the house. There's a couple of living room receptacles with
lamps plugged in, the basement ceiling fluorescents, 2nd floor landing
light, basement landing light, kitchen ceiling fixture, etc. These are
lights that are used every day for hours at a time.
Anyway, I changed the breaker. Since it was an intermittent problem, we'll
wait and see, but I'm pretty sure the problem's been solved.
One time, a friend of mine had flickering, in the entire house. Power came in through a double 100 breaker. One night after he came home from work, we switched off the double 100, and pulled it out of the box. Careful, as the wire connected to it was live. The metal bar in the center of the panel had corrosion, which we scraped off.
Looking back, I'd have used inverter, battery, and dremel tool. A dose of NoAlOx on the breaker and bar, and went back together. Looking back, I'd have used dielectric grease. But, he sold the house and I can't go back and redo it. The flickering was cured.
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org .
