A Puzzle - Iron and Yellow Colour in the Water
Peter Martin
recently moved into our first rural home and have been struggling with
problems involving iron and yellow coloured water ever since we got here.
It's esthetically very unpleasant and it stains our clothes.
Finding the source of the problem and a reasonably priced solution has been
a real puzzle. We still haven't solved it.
We had a very comprehensive test done of the water in the shallow well (18
feet deep and 4 feet in diameter) before we moved into the house, as well as
several times after we moved in. Everything appeared to be within the
drinking water guidelines except for high iron and manganese levels. The
PH and tannin-lignins readings were within the guidelines, but are of
potential concern as well.
iron 0.5, 1.4 and 1.6 mg/L measurements (at various times) - guideline is
0.3 mg/L
ph 6.62
tannins & Lignins 0.2 mg/L - guideline is 0.4 mg/L or less
manganese 0.67 mg/L - guideline is 0.4 mg/L
There was an old Manganese Greensand filter in the basement when we arrived.
We were told that this would get rid of the iron (which we presumed at the
time was the cause of the yellow water). It was in bad condition, so we had
a complete replacement installed for $1600 including installation (We kept
and reused the empty tank from the old installation. Everything else was
new) .
This didn't work. A new test showed there was as much iron as before and
the water stayed just as yellow.
We ran the filter for several months in this situation until we were finally
told that the cause of the problem was that manganese greensand filters need
a ph of greater than 6.8. While some internet sites indicated that the
filter would work at a lower ph than 6.6, the minimum figure of 6.8 was
specified in the instruction manual for the filter.
After a couple of months we found a reliable soda ash (sodium carbonate)
system which raised the ph to between 7.3 and 7.6 and had that installed for
another $1000. including installation.
Unfortunately, the water stayed yellow and the iron level stayed high.
We had the manganese greensand filter tested several times to make sure
there wasn't a malfunction. While we couldn't see inside the unit to make
certain nothing had been improperly installed, everything seemed to be
working according to the user's manual.
Hair pulling time.
After some research on the internet, I found some sites which referred to
"Brown Algae" which can grow in the dark in nutrient-rich wells. Our well,
for some reason, has a high coliform content (not fecal coliform though -
which is below the measurable limit, and we have a UV filter to sterilize
the water). Recently, I saw a small fibrous plant of some kind floating
just below the surface of the well. Does that mean the yellow is caused by
Brown Algae? Even if that's true, why won't the Manganese Greensand filter
remove the iron? Does the algae (if it's there) somehow prevent the filter
from working properly?
We then put high concentrations of household chlorine bleach in the well on
three separate occasions to kill any algae or other growth.
That seemed to work each time when the water went clear for a day or so.
Then the water returned to its normal disgusting yellow colour. The iron
level remained high when we next measured it.
The supplier of our Manganese Greensand filter has now begun to suggest that
our problem might be caused by Tannin Lignins. After some research on the
internet, I found several websites which referred to "Heme Iron", which
apparently is iron bound up in a complex with molecules from decayed
vegetation. Apparently, this can cause a yellow colour, somewhat like the
colour of weak tea.
The measured level of the tannin lignins in our water is below the drinking
water guideline level. Does that mean that tannin lignins could not be the
cause of the yellow water? Could even a small concentration of tannin
lignins somehow prevent the Manganese Greensand filter from working to
remove the iron?
Some other sites on the internet suggested that, over time, acidic water
would eat away the Manganese Dioxide coating on the Manganese Greensand
Filter media (i.e. on the Manganese Greensand "sand" filter media), thereby
rendering it useless. Since we ran the filter for several months in water
with a ph of 6.62 (slightly acidic), could that conceivably be the cause?
In summary, the yellow colour and high iron content in the water could
potentially be due to a poorly installed Manganese Greensand filter, or the
adverse affects of tannin lignins on the Manganese Greensand filter, or the
adverse affects of brown algae on the filter, or the presence of Heme Iron,
or the effects of slightly acidic water eating away the coating on the
Greensand media.
More hair pulling time.
I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.
Anyone have any ideas?
Peter
--
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Gary Coffman
>I'm tired of spending money on solutions that don't work.
>
>Anyone have any ideas?
Well, first I'd say that you have to realize that the drinking water guidelines
are just a measure of whether the water is safe for human consumption. They
don't mean you'll have clean, clear, mineral free water. Frankly, all throughout
reading your tale of woe, the words "deep bored well" kept drifting through my
mind.
I'm not too keen on shallow wells. The water doesn't receive enough natural
filtration to suit me. Deep water usually (not always) means clean water. My
water here comes from a 180 foot bored well. The water is clean, clear, and
cold. There is also a shallow dug well on the property, and while it never lacks
for water, the water is, well the best word is "icky". I wouldn't drink it even though
the health department says it is safe.
Gary
Larry Caldwell
> After living for years in a city and taking clean water for granted, we
> recently moved into our first rural home and have been struggling with
> problems involving iron and yellow coloured water ever since we got here.
> It's esthetically very unpleasant and it stains our clothes.
What is your household plumbing like? Is the pipe old decayed iron pipe
and the water heater set to 120 degrees or less and not tapped for
sediment very often? What is the
beachcooler
The yellow color is tannins. Water filters are available at home depot or Lowes
to remove them. They are prevalent in my area, especially with shallow wells.
Manganese usually colors fixtures and clothes with a greenish tint, iron turns
things brown, and tannins only color the water but may tinge some clothing,
especially cotton. The UV is an excellent choice. I would install a sediment
filter first and a carbon filter after. Should do the trick for about 50 bucks.
Gary Slusser
"Peter Martin" <pmartin9...@shaw.ca> wrote
First, as you can see the guidelines can leave a lot to be desired so
you should test for those things are can cause the problems you have,
and then remove all of the cause. And if you don't know those things,
rely on water treatment folks rather than the government and/or labs.
Assuming your problems are not caused by rusting galvanized etc.
plumbing and/or fittings past the water treatment equipment, and you
should know if that is where the cause is or not, the rest of what I say
disregards those possibilities.
Greensand is not in favor much anymore, other types of treatment work
better with less expense both in purchasing and operation. Air, ozone,
hydrogen peroxide and chlorine or Birm may have been a better choice.
Especially with the price you paid! And then the price for the solution
feeder! Do you have a properly sized retention tank so the soda ash has
the correct length of time to work? Why aren't you feeding chlorine
(too) to treat the tannin, bacteria and iron?
Yellow tinge color etc. can be tannins or iron. Tannins are difficult to
treat successfully and the best way is with tannin specific ion exchange
resins. Iron comes in at least 4 types and heme is one but it doesn't
cause yellow water, it provides for a bloody taste. Iron, blood,
hemoglobin... heme iron. Another name is organically bound, or bacteria
related. The bugs have iron in their gut and when they die, the iron is
released into the water; this is hard to correct if you have the wrong
type of equipment, such as a UV light on water containing IRB (iron
reducing bacteria).
The well you have is marginal at best. In essence, you are using surface
water. You should learn about well cleaning and apply all you can from
what you read to your well. Chlorine can not, will not, kill all the
bacteria that can be found in wells and can make the situation worse if
you cause slime formation by disturbing slime forming bacteria. But, no
bacteria can withstand a combination of low pH (2) and then high pH
(12), both for a few hours time. Well those protected by encrustations
can so the idea is to destroy the encrustation with the acid/caustic to
be able to get them to the bacteria. Heated water is also better than
cold. I think the temp is 106f but don't hold me to that. So look into
finding someone that knows about (chemically) cleaning your well. In
your area, or part of the world, there is a company that has been
developing a rehabilitation process for many years and they are very
good at it. I say all this because there's little sense in having
expensive equipment and running very foul water through it and then
expecting the water to be pristine. IOWs, the treatment should start in
the well. It's called well rehabilitation and/or well cleaning.
You can also have the greensand filter checked for the proper dose of
potassium permanganate for your water quality and volume of use. Yes,
the greensand can be ruined due to the low pH water run through it for
months. Personally I think the dealer should replace it free of charge
due to his/her screw up; any dealer should know the limitations of the
medias they use. And what make control valve do you have on the filter?
If you don['t know, call and ask the dealer for the manufacturer and the
model number. Also ask for the drain line flow control gpm and volume of
greensand you have. Also how much PP is being dosed.
Until you get rid of the color and iron, do not rely on the UV to
provide bacteria free water. As above, it could be causing iron to be
released into the water past it by killing IRB. That can also cause a
'sulfur' odor.
Your goal has to be 0 iron, manganese, tannin and bacteria with a pH of
7 to 7.5. Anything less is a failed attempt at treatment.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
"Gary Coffman" <ke...@bellsouth.net> wrote
Actually everything we pour on or bury in the ground, comes up later in
water somewhere. That makes the earth more like a sponge than filter.
And it's only been in the last 25 to 30 years that we finally realized
that the ground only filters stones and such, not liquids etc.. Those
things found in water that will harm us are all tasteless, colorless and
odorless... You can't know if they are present without specific water
analysis for them.
The deepest well I've worked on is 605' deep and was only two months
old. One of the problems was coliform bacteria and the month old baby
boy was sick. We also now know that bacteria is everywhere we look
except in space. We can't live with certain types of bacteria, but we
die without certain types too and all waters have some bacteria in
varying amounts until it is treated. The best water man can make is
deionized water and H2O (only) doesn't exist anywhere in nature. In many
areas, they don't call 180+ deep, our average well here is about 150'.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
"beachcooler" <beach...@earthlink.net> wrote
>
> The yellow color is tannins. Water filters are available at home depot
or Lowes
> to remove them. They are prevalent in my area, especially with shallow
wells.
> Manganese usually colors fixtures and clothes with a greenish tint,
iron turns
> things brown, and tannins only color the water but may tinge some
clothing,
> especially cotton. The UV is an excellent choice. I would install a
sediment
> filter first and a carbon filter after. Should do the trick for about
50 bucks.
Tannins are dissolved in the water and I know of no filter in any big
box store that will remove/reduce true tannins. If those filters are
reducing or removing something, it is particles, commonly called
sediment.
Manganese causes black particles and stains and IIRC can create gray
water albeit rarely. Greenish and green/blue stains is copper. Ferric
iron (insoluble/red water iron) is tan/yellow to rusty reddish dark
brown toward black. Ferrous iron (soluble clear water iron) is dissolved
into the water and can't be seen; neither can heme and organic iron.
Colloidal iron is like tannin but in some cases can be mechanically
filtered if the particles are heavy enough, sometimes not. Carbon is
only to be used on microbiologically safe water (no bacteria) and not a
good choice for ferrous (soluble) iron problems; it goes right through
sediment and carbon filters. UV is only to be used on clear water that
does not contain anything, or enough of it, that will cause a film or
residue on the quartz sleeve that prevents the transmittance of the
invisible light into and through the water being treated. You only get
what you pay for comes to mind...
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Peter Martin
I've thought about having a deep well dug. Unfortunately, several of the
deep wells dug in the area by my neighbours have produced water containing
high levels of arsenic. There's no measurable arsenic in the shallow well
that I currently have. While a new, deep well might not contain arsenic, it
would still be a gamble.
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"Gary Coffman" <ke...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:3f1379a2....@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
Gary Slusser
While I rarely suggest a new well.... if you drilled one and got rid of
the problems with the present very shallow well, you could treat the
arsenic very affordably and easily and have a much easier time than you
are currently. Some folks believe that 'city' water doesn't have the
same type of problems, or that 'city' water isn't treated for various
health related parameters, not true. Most water companies in the US are
now using some wells as their water sources.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Peter Martin
"Gary Slusser" <qwas...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:s7XQa.656$lL.7...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> Assuming your problems are not caused by rusting galvanized etc.
> plumbing and/or fittings past the water treatment equipment, ....
All the plumbing in the house after the Managanese Greensand Filter is
copper pipe.
>Do you have a properly sized retention tank so the soda ash has
> the correct length of time to work?
The solution feeder is installed between the pump in the well and the
pressure tank which is located in a small concrete room immediately above
the well. I was told by the manufacturer of the solution feeder that the
time that the freshly pumped water spends in the pressure tank would be
enough to do the trick and that a separate retention tank would not be
necessary. When I measure the ph level in the water at the faucet inside
the house, the ph level doesn't seem to fluctuate, so that until now my
assumption has been the soda ash system is working properly.
> Why aren't you feeding chlorine (too) to treat the tannin, bacteria and
iron?
To be honest, I hadn't thought about feeding chlorine into the water. Also
I'm very much a neophyte with this entire subject, still trying to learn
everything that I can find. If chlorine were added into the soda ash
solution feeder, and then injected into the water being pumped from the
well, presumably it would have to be extracted at a later stage before it
reached the faucets in the house. Would that best be done with an
activated charcoal filter?
While I understand that the chlorine would presumably kill iron bacteria,
how would it help reduce the tannin and iron levels in the water?
> You should learn about well cleaning and apply all you can from
> what you read to your well.
Thank you for the advice. I will look into this subject.
Gary Coffman
>I've thought about having a deep well dug. Unfortunately, several of the
>deep wells dug in the area by my neighbours have produced water containing
>high levels of arsenic. There's no measurable arsenic in the shallow well
>that I currently have. While a new, deep well might not contain arsenic, it
>would still be a gamble.
Drilling a well is always a gamble. But you can be pretty sure you won't have
large amounts of tannin/lignin in a deep well. Arsenic is treatable, and a little
even makes your coat shiney. :-)
Gary
Michael
>
Gary,
First of all welcome to the group. Secondly please snip the preceding
message instead of repeating it in its entirety
beachcooler
Geee, I'll have to tell all those folks here with the carbon filters on
their irrigation wells that they really don't remove the tannins....
Gary Slusser
"Peter Martin" <pmartin9...@shaw.ca> wrote
Then the size of the pressure tank has to be sufficient to provide
adequate retention time. With pH adjustment this isn't as critical as
say chlorine (for oxidation) would be. Yes, to use an oxidizer (air,
chlorine, ozone, hydrogen peroxide) for iron, manganese, H2S etc. you
need a retention tank of one kind or other to allow time for the
oxidation process to work. The size and type varies dependent on the
type of oxidizer. For chlorine and hydrogen peroxide the minimum
retention is usually thought of as 42 gal but... 80 to 120 gal is more
the norm. Then for all of them, you need a turbidity filter after the
retention tank to remove (clarify) particulate matter from the water
after the oxidation takes place but, regular carbon is a poor choice and
can get expensive with frequent replacement. Either a mixed bed with 4-5
varying layers of different mineral or a special (Centaur) catalytic
carbon is best. If you used mixed bed and didn't want chlorine in the
water, then you'd use regular (GAC) carbon after the turbidity filter.
Centaur removes chlorine but as a sideline effect, you wouldn't want to
use it solely for chlorine removal, its way too pricey. The carbon
wouldn't have to be a backwashed type, a disposable 4.5" x 20" cartridge
filter would work if sized correctly.
Are you doing this yourself or do you have a water treatment dealer
involved? This is more than most DIYers can handle. You can't simply mix
some chlorine with the soda ash. There are formulas for all this and
what and how much of it is in the water along with how much water is
used all plays a part. So does what else is in the water; like
alkalinity, hardness, the TDS level, sulfates, chlorides etc.. Tannin is
tough to treat successfully. Chlorine is not all that effective if at
all in treating tannin. Many folks mistakenly call other problems
(mostly iron related) 'tannins' but since you have a tannin test result
(IIRC), you need to treat for them but... You need the other stuff
removed first or you won't be successful. I suggest a dealer familiar
with tannin removal in your area. Tannin treatment success varies from
one well to another and one area to another. Frankly, they're a bitch.
Here's a google search for "tannin removal" (with the quotes):
http://tinyurl.com/h3vk
If you need other equipment, give me the opportunity to give you a
quote. I'm sure you'd appreciate my prices.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
"Michael" <michael-noo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
Hi Mike,
I see you must be in rural.misc, otherwise you'd have been reading my
posts in alt.home.repair and other groups since early 1997. Or you must
be new here or I would have read your posts in my groups. So I'll
welcome to you too.
Many people search for my posts, so I leave what I am replying to so
they and others can learn without constantly going from one post to
another. I find many posters asking for help or in understanding their
water quality problems to be a bit limited in knowing what to ask or
offer in regards to detail so how do you propose I answer what hasn't
been asked if I snip what they have said? It also prevents me from
having to go from one post to the previous posts or when I get e-mail
including my reply. I get quite a bit of e-mail and it takes more time
to reply if things are hacked up to the point where I have to
familiarize myself with the person's problem by looking up newsgroup
posts. So I'm sorry if my nonsnipped replies disturb you but it doesn't
seem you're much interested in my replies so could you please skip over
them.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
"beachcooler" <beach...@earthlink.net> wrote
Maybe they'd appreciate your input if it caused them to spend less money
on carbon. But first I think you need to know more about tannins, or I
do.
I've been the business of improving water quality, 99% on problem well
water BTW, for 15 years now. Admittedly I don't have much experience
with tannins but I'll give you a few sources of what I know and you can
show me where you see anyone other than novices using carbon for what
they obviously are mistakenly calling a tannin problem in their well
water.
Here's a google search for "tannin removal" with 280 hits. I doubt you
can find anyone proposing mechanical filtration (the trapping of
particles) for a tannin problem. Carbon absorbs and adsorbs while
trapping some particulates; true tannins are dissolved into the water on
the ion level and no mechanical filter will remove ions. And Lowes etc.
doesn't sell specialty resin cartridges (tannin specific anion resin)
that could.
http://tinyurl.com/h3vk
And it was you that said "tannins only color the water ".....So tell me,
why would anyone filter tannins from irrigation water? That seems to say
they are filtering IRON/rust that stains things tan to orangish reddish
brown. You were right, tannins cause discolored water, not surface
staining problems. Here's another google search for tannins + staining
with 2200+ hits and although I didn't look all that hard, I didn't see
where tannin in water causes surface staining when water containing them
is allowed to evaporate.
http://tinyurl.com/h49f
Now you should be ready to go help those carbon filter guys.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
llama mama
news:3f1379a2....@newsgroups.bellsouth.net:
i have the opposite. my dug well is great & my 185' drilled well is high
in iron and manganese & tastes nasty, even with a filter system :) i
drink from the dug well & water the gardens with the drilled well. the
sulpher/iron stink isn't so bad outdoors.
lee
--
It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the vital
connection between them. -Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)
Gary Slusser
"llama mama" <eni...@empire.net> wrote
Hopefully you two do at least 6 month to annual water quality testing on
all of your wells. The shallow wells should have pesticide, herbicide,
nitrate, nitrite and bacteria tests done.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
llama mama
> Hopefully you two do at least 6 month to annual water quality testing
> on all of your wells. The shallow wells should have pesticide,
> herbicide, nitrate, nitrite and bacteria tests done.
i do annual tests. i have a 3 year old & livestock drinking that water.
although no one around uses herbicides, it's part of the water test...
which is really pretty inexpensive.
Peter Martin
> Are you doing this yourself or do you have a water treatment dealer
> involved?
I live in a small town of about 20,000 and there is only a very limited
amount of experience in this area. The nearest large city (Vancouver) is
about 6 hours away by car. At the moment, I'm working through a local sales
representative who, in turn, calls his water treatment dealer in the
Vancouver. The water treatment dealer won't discuss the problem directly
with me - only with the local sales representative. Apart from trying to
learn as much as I can by researching the problem on my own, I'm sticking
with the local sales representative because, at the moment, he is continuing
to work with me at minimal cost to try to solve the problem of why the
Manganese Greensand filter I purchased from him isn't removing the iron in
the water.
> Many folks mistakenly call other problems
> (mostly iron related) 'tannins' but since you have a tannin test result
> (IIRC), you need to treat for them but... You need the other stuff
> removed first or you won't be successful.
That's the general approach I'm trying to take right now - i.e. trying to
remove the iron and manganese. According to the tests I've had done, the
only contaminants in the water which exceed the drinking water guidelines
are iron (1.4 mg/L, guideline is 0.3)), manganese and coliform (not fecal
coliform, which was found to be below the measurable limit). The level of
manganese varies from 0.67 mg/L to 0.019 mg/L (results from two different
laboratories). The level of tannins/lignins in the water (measured at 0.2
mg/L and 0.3 mg/L)are below the drinking water guidelines of 0.4 mg/L. My
assumption is that the high coliform level is caused by nutrients in the
water from decayed vegetation (leaves etc from the surrounding bush) and
that the tannins-lignins are also a result of the decayed vegetation.
What I really don't understand is why the Manganese Greensand filter is not
removing the iron. I'm suspicious that, either the tubing inside the filter
was poorly installed (by the local dealer) so that the water coming in from
the well is somehow bypassing the filter bed or, alternatively, that the
coating on the Greensand itself was eaten away and rendered useless during
the months that the filter was used in water with a ph of 6.6.
I wouldn't think that the low level of tannins-lignins in the water would
prevent the Manganese Greensand filter from functioning properly, but then
I've had very little experience in this regard.
This weekend, the local dealer removed the filter and will install it for a
few days at his own home, in place of his own Manganese Greensand filter
which he says is working properly. Reportedly, his water also has been
tested and found to have iron and tannins in the water. I'm anxiously
waiting to see what happens.
> I suggest a dealer familiar with tannin removal in your area. Tannin
>treatment success varies from one well to another and one area to another.
>Frankly, they're a bitch.
Finding someone with experience with tannins will be my next step if the
water continues to remain yellow after the iron has been removed.
> Here's a google search for "tannin removal" (with the quotes):
> http://tinyurl.com/h3vk
> If you need other equipment, give me the opportunity to give you a
> quote. I'm sure you'd appreciate my prices.
Thank you.
Gary Slusser
"Peter Martin" <pmartin9...@shaw.ca> wrote
>
> > Are you doing this yourself or do you have a water treatment dealer
> > involved?
>
> I live in a small town of about 20,000 and there is only a very
limited
> amount of experience in this area. The nearest large city (Vancouver)
is
> about 6 hours away by car. At the moment, I'm working through a local
sales
> representative who, in turn, calls his water treatment dealer in the
> Vancouver. The water treatment dealer won't discuss the problem
directly
> with me - only with the local sales representative. Apart from trying
to
> learn as much as I can by researching the problem on my own, I'm
sticking
> with the local sales representative because, at the moment, he is
continuing
> to work with me at minimal cost to try to solve the problem of why the
> Manganese Greensand filter I purchased from him isn't removing the
iron in
> the water.
I suspect he is the dealer and he's talking to his distributor. Problem
is he's charging you, and a little or a lot, you still have the problem
and he should be making it right at no charge.
You have to give up this idea that reduction to the acceptable limits is
your goal. Your goal is removal (zero), and if you don't remove the iron
and tannin you will still have colored water and iron staining. Staining
occurs with any amount of iron but usually you don't see it at less than
.3 ppm because you clean the surface the stain is on. Rust buildup in
the plumbing can add the levels of iron you have. Coliform is a group of
bacteria. They live in the ground and when found in our food or water,
indicate an environment conducive to their survival and the a high
probability of other bacteria, both harmful and nonharmful to humans.
Reducing type bacteria are a good possibility as to teh cause of the
greensand not working. Along with the low pH you had.
> What I really don't understand is why the Manganese Greensand filter
is not
> removing the iron. I'm suspicious that, either the tubing inside the
filter
> was poorly installed (by the local dealer) so that the water coming in
from
> the well is somehow bypassing the filter bed or, alternatively, that
the
> coating on the Greensand itself was eaten away and rendered useless
during
> the months that the filter was used in water with a ph of 6.6.
See above.
> I wouldn't think that the low level of tannins-lignins in the water
would
> prevent the Manganese Greensand filter from functioning properly, but
then
> I've had very little experience in this regard.
>
> This weekend, the local dealer removed the filter and will install it
for a
> few days at his own home, in place of his own Manganese Greensand
filter
> which he says is working properly. Reportedly, his water also has
been
> tested and found to have iron and tannins in the water. I'm anxiously
> waiting to see what happens.
That's dumb and a lot of work and effort for nothing IMO. His water is
not your water and what's he going to do if it works at his house? I
think he replaces the greensand at no charge and you start over.
> > I suggest a dealer familiar with tannin removal in your area. Tannin
> >treatment success varies from one well to another and one area to
another.
> >Frankly, they're a bitch.
>
> Finding someone with experience with tannins will be my next step if
the
> water continues to remain yellow after the iron has been removed.
>
> > Here's a google search for "tannin removal" (with the quotes):
> > http://tinyurl.com/h3vk
> > If you need other equipment, give me the opportunity to give you a
> > quote. I'm sure you'd appreciate my prices.
>
> Thank you.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Phil J
Just read about your water problems.
Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)? Where is your shallow well
situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing made
of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
problem, or at least may contribute to it)?
Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
runoff getting into the well. It is hard to avoid having total
coliforms in shallow wells. A drilled well is inherently safer but
that may not solve your problem with coloured water.
I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so am
wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well, or
only after being exposed to air?
Diagnosing a water problem from lab test results is a bit like a
doctor diagnosing an unseen patient using only blood test results.
One needs to see the whole patient to get a better idea of what is
going on.
I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.
You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
h...@netidea.com.
Regards,
Phil J.
"Gary Slusser" <qwas...@ptd.net> wrote in message news:<ZyhSa.1085$lL.1...@nnrp1.ptd.net>...
Gary Slusser
"Phil J" <h...@netidea.com> wrote
> Hi Peter,
> Just read about your water problems.
> Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)? Where is your shallow well
> situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing made
> of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
> problem, or at least may contribute to it)?
>
> Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
> necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
> runoff getting into the well. It is hard to avoid having total
> coliforms in shallow wells. A drilled well is inherently safer but
> that may not solve your problem with coloured water.
>
> I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so am
> wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well, or
> only after being exposed to air?
>
> Diagnosing a water problem from lab test results is a bit like a
> doctor diagnosing an unseen patient using only blood test results.
> One needs to see the whole patient to get a better idea of what is
> going on.
>
> I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
> and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.
>
> You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
> h...@netidea.com.
>
> Regards,
>
> Phil J.
Phil, since you haven't seen yellow water, or treated it, what free
advice could you give him if you were looking down 'n round his well,
especially without water analysis data? That would seem as if the doctor
was treating the patient without a blood test.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Peter Martin
"Phil J" <h...@netidea.com> wrote in message
news:c56c9831.0307...@posting.google.com...
> Where are you (6 hours from Vancouver)?
The town is called Powell River, located on the coast due north of
Vancouver.
>Where is your shallow well
> situated in terms of vegetation, runoff, etc? What is the casing made
> of? (if it's galvanized culvert, that may be the cause of the
> problem, or at least may contribute to it)?
The well is located in the middle of a fairly large driveway which is paved
with asphalt. On the "upslope" side of the driveway there is a 40 foot
lawn with fruit trees, then a hedge, then a paved rural road. On the other
side of that there is another house with another lawn. Further up from that
there is bush.
The casing is made of circular concrete rings, one on top of the other.
Each ring is 4 feet in diameter and 2 feet high. There is a concrete floor
at the top of the well, on which is mounted the pressure tank and the
electrical controls for the pump. There is a small square hole in the
concrete floor, about 3 feet by 2 feet, covered with a stainless steel plate
to provide access to the well itself. There are also concrete rings above
this concrete floor. These rings form the circular wall of a small room.
The "ceiling" of the room is made of concrete, with a stainless steel plate
providing access from above.
As an aside, I've never seen nor taken samples from the bottom of the well
and, although there is no direct evidence one way or the other, it's
possible there could be vegetation matter at the bottom of the well. It
would be necessary to find and hire a contractor with specialized equipment
to check the bottom of the well because of the small size of the access
hole. This has not been done yet because, I have always assumed that the
tannins came from decaying grass clippings from the lawns, and from dead
leaves etc in the bush, and not from anything in the well itself.
> Total coliforms in shallow wells are a common phenomenom, not
> necessarily a health risk, but indicative of surface material and
> runoff getting into the well.
When we moved in, we noticed several small holes one inch in diameter in the
side of the well, in the concrete rings, level with the asphalt. (The
concrete rings protrude above the level of the asphalt driveway.) Some of
the run-off from the rain was running down the asphalt driveway and getting
into the well through these holes. It had probably been that way for
years. We plugged the holes about 3 months ago.
> I haven't personally seen yellow water from high iron in water, so am
> wondering if it's something else. Is the water yellow in the well, or
> only after being exposed to air?
The water is yellow as soon as it comes out of the tap and stays that way.
It does not change colour. There doesn't seem to be any iron
precipitating from the water.
> I work as a public health inspector with many years experience in BC
> and have had a lot of involvement with private water systems.
> You are welcome to contact me for (free) advice if you like at
> h...@netidea.com.
Thank you. I would very much appreciate any advice you could offer. I
will probably send you an email in the near future, after more of this
continuing "saga" of water problems unfolds.
Gary Slusser
"Peter Martin" <pmartin9...@shaw.ca> wrote
>
>
> "Phil J" <h...@netidea.com> wrote
So Peter, I don't know where Phil is but we shouldn't wait any longer
for him because he may never return! lol
IMO you need a hydrocarbons scan and total iron test. This sounds like
colloidal iron to me although it could be tannin or lignin. Try this,
get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.
What type of pressure tank do you have?
Have you drained and flushed it lately?
Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
been there?
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Phil J
gallon of water and waiting to see if the yellow disappears and a
precipitate forms. This would suggest to me that chlorination and
filtration could work for you.
I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on a
local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
more details as to the make and installation.
A couple of other suggestions:
If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).
Second suggestion:
Clean the sucker! I have found some local conditions where shallow
wells that once produced clear, good-tasting water became foul over
the years. Just dumping a jug of bleach in the well and pumping it
out won't solve the problem. One has to physically enter the well and
scrub the concrete casing with bleach. Believe me, I've done it! In
the case of your well, it would be pretty claustrophobic. Also, be
really careful with air supply. I have entered and cleaned wells (not
as part of my public job, but for friends). I rented a "diaphragm
pump" or a "semi-trash pump" and sucked the well out as I went down.
At the bottom of the wells (ok, I've done exactly 2), was a buildup of
a foot or two or organic sludge. Quite gross. I was standing on soft
muck, which I scooped into a bucket and a helper pulled out with a
rope. I finally got all the guck out and was down to clean sand and
gravel. Then use a strong bleach solution to clean the casing from
top to bottom, pumping all the time so you don't drown... By the way,
there is a clean ladder involved, of course. You will probably find
that the walls are covered with organic slime, but when you are
finished, you will be down to clean, bare concrete. Both wells I did
this on had an immediate return to clean water. I can't guarantee
this will work for you, but a good well cleaning can only help. By
the way, I repeat, be careful about entering this confined space.
Because your well is not wide open at the top, you probably should
also rent an air pump to supply fresh air into the well as you work.
(I have cleaned a 3000-gallon water reservoir this way).
I don't know how big or agile you are, but someone will need to fit
through that 2x3 hole you describe! You need a small, wiry,
dedicated, safety-onsciousl person.
Contact me at h...@netidea.com if you want to discuss.
Phil J.
"Gary Slusser" <qwas...@ptd.net> wrote in message news:<8%ZTa.1581$lL.2...@nnrp1.ptd.net>...
Gary Slusser
"Phil J" <h...@netidea.com> wrote
> I agree with the fellow who suggested adding a cap of bleach to a
> gallon of water and waiting to see if the yellow disappears and a
> precipitate forms. This would suggest to me that chlorination and
> filtration could work for you.
> I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on a
> local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
> more details as to the make and installation.
That was me, but what I was looking for was to see if any oxidizer will
work. That would say iron etc. is the cause of the discolored water
rather than tannins.
Well mounted pellet droppers can cause problems in the well with the
pump, casing, screen if any and casing etc.. So IMO, they should be used
only when all other means of treatment in the building wouldn't.
Cleaning a well chemically and/or mechanically and then sanitizing it
and the plumbing throughout the building and then treating the water
after it enters the building is the best way to handle these types of
problems without causing other problems.
> A couple of other suggestions:
>
> If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
> with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
> has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
> problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
> Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
> Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).
Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment, or
at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
equipment and its application does little more than add an entity that
can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions fail;
regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed due
to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such as
manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate and
chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
application.
What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to hear
the rational behind the suggestion.
Now that I can support.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Peter Martin
"Gary Slusser" <qwas...@ptd.net> wrote in message
news:8%ZTa.1581$lL.2...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> Try this,
> get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
> non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
> overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
> over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
> form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.
Sorry for the delay in replying. It took me a while to obtain a clear
gallon jug.
This morning I followed the above instructions and left the jug for three
hours. There was no change in colour and no sediment appeared at the bottom
of the jug. I'm going to leave it for 24 hours to see if there is any
change.
The last time I super chlorinated the well, in May about 2 months ago, I
left it for 12 hours and then drained it until the pump turned off.
Because there was still a chlorine smell, I drained it again two more times
and then allowed it to refill completely. When we started using the
water again, it turned clear for about two days and then went pale yellow
again. I'm not certain exactly what happened to cause this.
> Have you drained and flushed it lately?
The last time was in May 2003.
> Has this color been there since you first arrived and how long have you
> been there?
The color has been present since we arrived last November, 2002.
Gary Coffman
>"Phil J" <h...@netidea.com> wrote
>> with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
>> has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
>> problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
>> Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
>> Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).
>
>Since you seem to be suggesting a direction away from water treament
>dealers.... In my experience the guvmint guys don't know equipment, or
>at least the latest improvements and application of it and they dont
>sell, service and repair it or have parts for it. So to get them
>involved when there's an industry specializing in water treatment
>equipment and its application does little more than add an entity that
>can not be sued or otherwise held responsible if their suggestions fail;
>regardless of the cost. And in many instances the advice is flawed due
>to suggesting equipment the industry is trying to get away from, such as
>manganese greensand filters regenerated with potassium permanganate and
>chlorine in any of it's 2 or 3 ways of being used in a residential
>application.
>
>What does that gain the home owner really? Seriously, I'd like to hear
>the rational behind the suggestion.
The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice from
someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you particular
kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good local
perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their area.
A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys' salaries
through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.
Gary
Arra Movsesien
they poop
Peter Martin
"Phil J" <h...@netidea.com> wrote in message
news:c56c9831.03072...@posting.google.com...
> I have seen a simple chlorine-pellet feeder and filtration system on a
> local well. The owner says it works well. Let me know if you want
> more details as to the make and installation.
Thank you.
I have read a lot about oxidation of tannins using ozone instead of
chlorine, and I'm wondering about the relative costs and other tradeoffs.
Has anyone had any experience with this?
> If you haven't already done so, call the local health unit and speak
> with a public health inspector (aka environmental health officer) who
> has local experience. He/she may be familiar with wells with similar
> problems in your area. Len Clarkson or Bob Weston both work the
> Coast-Garibaldi area and have years of experience (I am a PHI in the
> Kootenays, but soil and water conditions are different here).
Thank you. Good advice. I will do this.
The sides of the well above the water level are certainly very slimy.
I've also noticed that quite a lot of leaves and other vegetation matter
from the surrounding trees, as well as clippings from the surrounding grass
and weeds regularly find their way onto the asphalt driveway above the well.
The well is located in the middle of an asphalt parking area 3/4 of the way
down the driveway. Additionally, the neighbours have told me that the
previous occupants of the house (tenants) did not maintain the house or the
grounds very well. If it wasn't cleaned up, this vegetation would have
been washed down the asphalt driveway by the rain and some of it would have
regularly gotton into the well over the past 8 to 10 years. This spring I
plugged several small one inch diameter holes at ground level in the
concrete sides of the well through which rain water coming down the driveway
could easily pass through. Those holes have probably been there since the
well was constructed 15 years ago. All this is beginning to make me
suspicious that there could be a lot of accumulated muck at the bottom of
the well.
Can tannins be caused by the muck at the bottom of a well even after all
the vegetation at the bottom of the well has decayed? I'm wondering if the
tannin problem might clear up on its own if no more vegetation washes down
into the well.
Cleaning the well would be a horrible job. If I'm lucky there might be a
local contractor who would be willing to do this type of work. My biggest
concern would be the safety issue. I would NOT want a young contractor
with a family to injure himself. I read a story in the news just this week
about two men who died from bad air while cleaning out the bottom of a well.
Gary Slusser
"Peter Martin" <pmartin9...@shaw.ca> wrote
Yes, the grass and leaves can cause tannins and since it appears they
have been getting in for 15 years, that certainly has a negative effect
on water quality and the ability of any equipment you might use to treat
the water.
You have to clean the well before you do anything else. Once you have it
cleaned and sanitized along with all the plumbing, pressure tank and
house plumbing (by pass all water treatment equipment) you need to
sanitize the softener etc. individually. Then retest the water and go
from there.
High pressure water will help in cleaning the sides. Anyone that's handy
can come up with a pump and tubing to do that and pump out the water so
the bottom can be cleaned out. A well driller or pump guy can tell you
all you need to know to clean a well. And they may rent you a pump if
need be.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
mark Ransley
of the kids and no more crap now I crap in my garden , Free
fertilizer ... IM ARRAA Master of all shit
mark Ransley
bacteria , does wonders..What did the vikings do,,, crap in it ,,,I
live it, eat it, bathe in it ,soak in it so I dont hear it from my
weife and kiddies , and IM fine except for a few cancers, i guess
Arra Movsesien
Gary Slusser
"Gary Coffman" <ke...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:vlo5iv0ioes0sdaif...@4ax.com...
The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests in
their agency or department's continuation.
And each time we advise or suggest something to someone we are all
'selling' something if only an idea. Here Phil is selling Peter away
from the 'pros' that he will eventually have to return to for the
equipment to solve his problem. Also, the vast majority of 'sales' are
actually done by honest, above board and sincere folks plus.... someone
is *buying* the product and the knowledge of the salesperson. Don't they
have a responsibility in their selections?
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Slusser
"Peter Martin" <pmartin9...@shaw.ca> wrote
Ok, that goes with tannin or collidal iron. You really need to clean and
sanitize the well. See my reply to your other reply.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary Coffman
>"Gary Coffman" <ke...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>news:vlo5iv0ioes0sdaif...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:06:19 GMT, "Gary Slusser" <qwas...@ptd.net>
>wrote:
>hear
>> >the rational behind the suggestion.
>>
>> The major reason to do as Phil suggests is to get independent advice
>from
>> someone who doesn't have a vested economic interest in selling you
>particular
>> kinds of equipment or services. The PHIs also generally have a good
>local
>> perspective on who *is* a reliable dealer or service person in their
>area.
>>
>> A secondary reason is since you're paying these public health guys'
>salaries
>> through your taxes anyway, you might as well get some benefit from it.
>>
>> Gary
>
>The fact is that the Phils amongst us have vested economic interests in
>their agency or department's continuation.
Which means that they have a strong incentive to do the best job they
can for the public, and give the best available advice to those who ask
for help. They have no profit motive which would tend to lead them to
try to sell the consumer things he doesn't need, or which show the best
profit margin for the dealer.
You, and other dealers, on the other hand, have a large pecuniary
interest in maximizing your profits. Thus I suppose it isn't strange
that you'd have such strong objections to consumers consulting
an independent expert with no such pecuniary interests.
Gary
Phil J
causing your coloured water. But after all this, I'm wondering if it
wouldn't just be better, and cheaper in the long run, to drill a new
well. Not a dug well with concrete rings, but a proper drilled well
with 8-inch steel casing. Drilled wells are inherently safer from
contamination by surface runoff. Shallow wells with the concrete
rings are an ongoing pain because stuff is always getting into them,
and they can be difficult to clean. Almost impossible, in your case.
See if any of the neighbours have drilled wells and what their water
quality is. You may just be throwing good money after bad by trying
to fix your shallow well. Again, the local health inspectors may be
able to give you valuable local information on local wells and the
groundwater quality.
Good luck.
Phil J.
"Gary Slusser" <qwas...@ptd.net> wrote in message news:<6JCUa.1787$lL.2...@nnrp1.ptd.net>...
Gary Slusser
"Gary Coffman" <ke...@bellsouth.net> wrote
Oh really.
Phil said he hadn't heard of iron causing yellow water after the OP said
he had an iron bleedthru of his equipment and I suggested the cause of
the yellow water may be iron. I did a search at google and found a
number of sites saying some people mistakenly believe tannins are the
problem when they have yellow water which also relates to iron. And I
didn't see anyone saying or implying it couldn't be iron.
> You, and other dealers, on the other hand, have a large pecuniary
> interest in maximizing your profits. Thus I suppose it isn't strange
> that you'd have such strong objections to consumers consulting
> an independent expert with no such pecuniary interests.
>
> Gary
And how is it that you know or believe that is true about me? If you
knew more about me you'd know exactly the opposite is true. But do a
google Groups search for me and (+) my company name and see if you still
think you're right. So far I've donated 6+ years of helping the public
understand water quality problems and their solutions and yes, the last
year I've made some sales. BTW, they are all based on the lowest prices
the person can find anywhere for the same products.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Arra Movsesien
vinegar, we know. com.
Arra Movsesien
the pro , man... of all pros
Arra Movsesien
Gary Slusser
"Phil J" <h...@netidea.com> wrote
> I suspect that the crud at the bottom of your well and on the sides is
> causing your coloured water. But after all this, I'm wondering if it
> wouldn't just be better, and cheaper in the long run, to drill a new
> well. Not a dug well with concrete rings, but a proper drilled well
> with 8-inch steel casing. Drilled wells are inherently safer from
> contamination by surface runoff. Shallow wells with the concrete
> rings are an ongoing pain because stuff is always getting into them,
> and they can be difficult to clean. Almost impossible, in your case.
>
> See if any of the neighbours have drilled wells and what their water
> quality is. You may just be throwing good money after bad by trying
> to fix your shallow well. Again, the local health inspectors may be
> able to give you valuable local information on local wells and the
> groundwater quality.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Phil J.
I agree somewhat with a new well when compared to the one there now. But
there shouldn't be an assumption that with a new well there would be no
need for water treatment equipment. You (generally) may not need some of
what you have, or it might be too small and you'd need larger or
different equipment.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Peter Martin
news:8%ZTa.1581$lL.2...@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> > Try this,
> > get a screw cap gallon jug filling it with cold water and a cap full of
> > non-scented regular 5.25% or 6 % concentrate household bleach until it
> > overflows (no air) and shake it good, then sit it aside and watch it
> > over a few hours for any change in the color, clarity or sediment to
> > form on the bottom. Then let me know what happened if anything.
"Peter Martin" <pmartin9...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:TdBUa.553077$Vi5.13...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> Sorry for the delay in replying. It took me a while to obtain a clear
> gallon jug.
>
> This morning I followed the above instructions and left the jug for three
> hours. There was no change in colour and no sediment appeared at the
bottom
> of the jug. I'm going to leave it for 24 hours to see if there is any
> change.
1. Further to my last posting (above), I left the gallon jug for another
24 hours and inspected it. I then added another 4 capfuls of chlorine
bleach to the water (for a total of 5 capfuls) and left the water for an
additional 24 hours. There was no noticeable change in the water in either
case. The water remained pale yellow and no visible sediment formed at the
bottom of the jug.
2. Based on this result, and the comments I've read on this newsgroup, it
appears as if there may not be a simple fix for this problem. Because I'm
not yet ready for the disruption, cost and gamble of digging an entirely new
well , cleaning the existing well may be the most promising approach at this
time - if this is possible. I'm going to start looking for a local
contractor who has experience with this type of work.
3. Right now, most of all, I would very much like to express my heartfelt
appreciation and gratitude to all the members of this newsgroup who
contributed so much of their time and so much excellent advice and expertise
to this particular problem. I have learned a lot from all of you, and now
have a very different perspective on the situation. Thank you all!!!
Peter