OT: Another quiz

[HeyBub]

The following were taken from a 5th grade textbook published in 1909:

* How many pounds of sugar, at $0.06 a pound, can be exchanged for 9 pounds
of butter at $0.32 a pound, and 12 dozen eggs at $0.18 a dozen?

* A lady sold some butter at $0.32 a pound and with the sum received bought
16 yards of cloth at $0.90 a yard, 4 hats at $3.00 each, 4 ties at $0.24
each, and 4 pairs of gloves at $0.55 each. How many pounds of butter did she
sell?

* $65 is the value of 5/6ths of an acre of land. At this rate, how many
acres of land can be bought for $6396?

* How many pecks are there in 17.5 bushels?

* A market gardener bought 20 yards of carpet at $1.25 a yard and paid for
it in potatoes at $0.05 a quart. How many bushels were required.

Contrast the above with today's typical 5th grade test:

* How much is 2 plus 2 (Hint: the answer is not a color)?

[Robert Green]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:-dWdnUlNV7Sr2t3S...@earthlink.com...

Show me a typical 5th grade test that has your alleged "(2 +2) not a color"
question on it. What's the point of posting this obvious nonsense?

Very few people have a need to know what a 'peck' is these days but they do
need to know what a 'peckerhead' is. Hint: the answer is a person who does
certain, inexplicable things.

Weren't you the one just talking about dating teachers? Surely you must
know that the 2 + 2 question is bullshit. Fifth graders know how to operate
computers nowadays. I have no worries that they're as stupid as you seem to
be implying with your post.

If you'd like to try dealing with the truth instead of myths you tell us you
feel compelled to bust, here's what *real* fifth graders study in math:

http://www.softschools.com/grades/5thgrade.jsp

Addition and Multiplication Properties
Multiplication Word Problems
Estimation Multiplication
Properties of Multiplication
Multiplication and Division Word Problems
Multiply & Divide Integers
Divisibility Rules
Decimals, Fractions, Percents Quiz
Multiply Fractions
Compare and Order Decimals
Find Place Value of a Number
Find Square root
Roman Numerals
5th grade word problems
Inequalities with Decimals
Expressions and Variables
Solve for unknown one variable equations
Measurements
Prime Numbers Up To 100
Prime and Composite Numbers
Classifying Numbers
Factor Tree
Greatest Common Factor
Finding the LCM
Ratios, Proportions, and Percents Activities for 5th Grade
Find perimeter for polygons- quiz
5th Grade Test: Geometry and spatial reasoning
Geometry Transformations Quiz
Polygons Quiz
Multiplication worksheets
Division worksheets
Place value worksheets
Finding Average worksheets
Rounding worksheets
Roman Numeral worksheets
Solve for unknown one variable equations - Algebra notation
Order of Operatons Worksheets
Decimal Worksheets for Fifth Grade
Decimal Worksheets addition and subtraction
Decimal Multiplication Worksheets
Decimals Place Value Worksheets
Decimals Addition Worksheets
Fractions Worksheets for Fifth Grade
All Fractions Worksheets(Improper, Mixed Number and adding fractions)
Fraction Addition Worksheets
Fraction Subtraction Worksheets
Fraction Multiplication Worksheets
Fraction Division Worksheets
Mixed number to improper fraction worksheets
Improper Fractions and Mixed number worksheets
Comparing fractions worksheets
Ordering fractions worksheets (Select Level 2)
Simplify Fractions Worksheets
Equivalent Fractions Worksheets (Advanced)
Mixed Number Fractions Worksheets
Exponents Worksheets for Fifth Grade
Exponents less than greater than worksheets
Expanded Form to Standard Form Worksheets
Standard Form to Expanded Form Exponents Worksheets
Scientific Notation Worksheet
Factors Worksheets for 5th Grade
Greatest Common Factor worksheets
Find All Factors worksheets
Factor Tree Worksheets
Ratios, Proportions, and Percents Worksheets for 5th Grade
Graph paper generator
Geometry Worksheets

--
Bobby G.

[hr(bob) hofmann@att.net]

> Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That seems a LITTLE bit advanced for 5th graders in the Chicago
suburban area.

[Robert Green]

"hr(bob) hof...@att.net" <hrho...@att.net> wrote in message
news:45b6489b-00af-44af-a338-

<stuff snipped>

Yabbut - you can be assured that they're not sitting around trying to guess
whether 2 + 2 is a color. Maybe the kids are stupid where HeyBub lives.
Texas appears to rank last in the nation in the percentage of adults with hi
gh school diplomas.

http://www.texastribune.org/texas-education/public-education/why-does-texas-rank-last-in-high-school-diplomas/

Here's another 5th grade math program outline, this time from North
Carolina:

http://www.dpi.state.nc.us/curriculum/mathematics/scos/2003/k-8/27grade5

No "two plus two" there either.

--
Bobby G.

[Steve Barker]

> Multiply& Divide Integers

funny, most HS grads these days can't count back change. And most of
them will need to whilst working at mcdonalds. I think the point he was
trying to make is that they don't teach any PRACTICAL math anymore.
Just feel good shit and stuff that doesn't matter.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[The Daring Dufas]

My two mommies and my two daddies. Save the planet, we can get all our
energy from the sun and windmills. Everyone should drive electric cars.
We're learning the Mexican Pledge of Allegiance today, tomorrow is
respect Islam Day. Ketchup is a vegetable. Do any of you children know
what the word "bizarre" means? No? Good, do we have some cool things
to indoctrinate you with today. Do any of you children know what the
word "indoctrinated" means? Good....... ^_^

TDD

[JIMMIE]

My daughter was doing Algebra in the 5th grade that I didnt see until
I was High School. I think that was pretty common. However I don't
think she has ever had to do a reading problem.

Jimmie

[JIMMIE]

On Feb 18, 10:27 pm, "Robert Green" <robert_green1...@yah00.com>
wrote:

> Bobby G.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Looks about like wht my kids were doing then.

Jimmie

[JIMMIE]

On Feb 18, 7:49 pm, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:

[HeyBub]

Robert Green wrote:
> "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:-dWdnUlNV7Sr2t3S...@earthlink.com...
>> The following were taken from a 5th grade textbook published in 1909:
>>
>> * How many pounds of sugar, at $0.06 a pound, can be exchanged for 9
>> pounds of butter at $0.32 a pound, and 12 dozen eggs at $0.18 a
>> dozen?
>>
>> * A lady sold some butter at $0.32 a pound and with the sum received
>> bought 16 yards of cloth at $0.90 a yard, 4 hats at $3.00 each, 4
>> ties at $0.24 each, and 4 pairs of gloves at $0.55 each. How many
>> pounds of butter did she sell?
>>
>> * $65 is the value of 5/6ths of an acre of land. At this rate, how
>> many acres of land can be bought for $6396?
>>
>> * How many pecks are there in 17.5 bushels?
>>
>> * A market gardener bought 20 yards of carpet at $1.25 a yard and
>> paid for it in potatoes at $0.05 a quart. How many bushels were
>> required.
>>
>> Contrast the above with today's typical 5th grade test:
>>
>> * How much is 2 plus 2 (Hint: the answer is not a color)?
>
> Show me a typical 5th grade test that has your alleged "(2 +2) not a
> color" question on it. What's the point of posting this obvious
> nonsense?

It's called hyperbole, that is, exaggeration for the purpose of emphasis.
Regrettably, you did not learn that in your high school English class.

>
> Very few people have a need to know what a 'peck' is these days but
> they do need to know what a 'peckerhead' is. Hint: the answer is a
> person who does certain, inexplicable things.

Er, no. The definition of "peckerhead" does not include doing "inexplicable
things." Regrettably, you did not learn to use a dictionary in the 9th
grade.

>
> Weren't you the one just talking about dating teachers? Surely you
> must know that the 2 + 2 question is bullshit. Fifth graders know
> how to operate computers nowadays. I have no worries that they're as
> stupid as you seem to be implying with your post.
>
> If you'd like to try dealing with the truth instead of myths you tell
> us you feel compelled to bust, here's what *real* fifth graders study
> in math:
>
> http://www.softschools.com/grades/5thgrade.jsp
>

[snip syllabus]

Could well be true, and I thank you for the list. Regrettably, in Chicago
very many students do not REACH the fifth grade inasmuch as they turn 17 and
can quit school altogether.

I thank you, nevertheless, for your contribution to this thread.

[Jim Elbrecht]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 03:24:43 -0800 (PST), JIMMIE
<JIMMIE...@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>On Feb 18, 7:49 pm, "HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:

-snip-

>>
>> Contrast the above with today's typical 5th grade test:
>>
>> * How much is 2 plus 2 (Hint: the answer is not a color)?
>
>My daughter was doing Algebra in the 5th grade that I didnt see until
>I was High School. I think that was pretty common. However I don't
>think she has ever had to do a reading problem.

Probably not in TX. Seems like most of the folks who think kids today
are dumber than dirt are from TX.

I wish some youngsters from TX would weigh in so we could see if it is
true down there or if it is just the old farts over-compensating.

Jim

[Bob_Villa]

On Feb 19, 5:16 am, The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky.net>
wrote:

>
> My two mommies and my two daddies. Save the planet, we can get all our
> energy from the sun and windmills. Everyone should drive electric cars.
> We're learning the Mexican Pledge of Allegiance today, tomorrow is
> respect Islam Day. Ketchup is a vegetable. Do any of you children know
> what the word "bizarre" means? No? Good, do we have some cool things
> to indoctrinate you with today. Do any of you children know what the
> word "indoctrinated" means? Good.......   ^_^
>
> TDD

Duf, I want this ALL rewritten in complete sentences!

[The Daring Dufas]

Remember, I've no fear of terrorists because as a small boy, I had Irish
nuns for teachers. I think I'm rebelling against what Sister
Godzilla taught me in my English and writing lessons. o_O

TDD

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2012 03:27:32 -0800 (PST), JIMMIE <JIMMIE...@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:

In fifth grade I was learning simple arithmetic in bases up to 32 (sixth grade
was more of the same but added more complex arithmetic like long division). Of
course I didn't use it again until college (but have pretty much every day
since).

[HeyBub]

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
>>
>> My daughter was doing Algebra in the 5th grade that I didnt see until
>> I was High School. I think that was pretty common. However I don't
>> think she has ever had to do a reading problem.
>
> Probably not in TX. Seems like most of the folks who think kids today
> are dumber than dirt are from TX.
>
> I wish some youngsters from TX would weigh in so we could see if it is
> true down there or if it is just the old farts over-compensating.
>

In my view, neither one.

Texas ranks very low in high school completion and other measures of
academic excellence. This unfortunate situation is probably because a
significant number of school-age children are from aliens' families.

[The Daring Dufas]

It could be that the schools spend too much time trying to teach English
or the classes have to held in a foreign language? o_O

TDD

[Steve Barker]

BINGO! no more calls, we have a winnner!

[Stormin Mormon]

I guess it's all depending on the goal. Do you want to grow a bunch of
useful idiots, or do you want adults who can think? From what I can figure,
the schools now days want useful idiots.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"The Daring Dufas" <the-dari...@stinky.net> wrote in message
news:jhqln2$ghi$1...@dont-email.me...

[edward.be...@gmail.com]

On Feb 19, 6:16 am, The Daring Dufas <the-daring-du...@stinky.net>
wrote:

> We're learning the MexicanPledgeofAllegiancetoday, tomorrow is

> respect Islam Day. Ketchup is a vegetable. Do any of you children know
> what the word "bizarre" means? No? Good, do we have some cool things
> to indoctrinate you with today. Do any of you children know what the
> word "indoctrinated" means? Good.......   ^_^
>

> TDD- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

What is wild about kids in the USA doing the Mexican Pledge of
Allegiance is that the kids perform it using the Nazi salute, which
was the early American salute in the pledge and the origin of the Nazi
salute. See the work of the historian Dr. Rex Curry.
http://rexcurry.net/bellamy-edward-emiliano-zapata-mexico-socialism.html

Of course, no government-school teacher knows this or would ever
mention this truth if it were known. Instead they all probably act
like Mexicans are weirdos (so who are the real weirdos?) for doing the
nazi salute (which they borrowed from the USA, as did the Nazis and
lost of other socialists all over the globe).
http://rexcurry.net/Mexican_Flag_Salute_Military_Heart.jpg

[Robert Green]

"Steve Barker" <ichase...@notgmail.com> wrote in message
news:Edmdne73VvTCBt3S...@giganews.com...

Most? You must travel in different circles than I do. I can't see how
businesses survive if "most" of their counter employees are giving the wrong
change back. Implying that Americans are that fu&ing stupid is something
I'd expect from Harry or HomeGuy. It's sad to see HeyBub (and you?) join
the ranks of the America bashers here.

> And most of them will need to whilst working at mcdonalds. I think the
point he was
> trying to make is that they don't teach any PRACTICAL math anymore.
> Just feel good shit and stuff that doesn't matter.

If that's what you want to believe, then more power to you. But looking at
what they're actually being taught and tested on tells a different, slightly
less pessimistic, much more truthful story. While smart cash registers have
reduced the need for employees to mentally calculate the change, I don't
think it's fair to slander the entire 5th grade population of the country by
insinuating that they're all doing "2 + 2" math or that they don't know
numbers from colors. It's just more pointless America bashing AFAICT and
this time from an American, not some damn furriner. That's sad to see.
Especially in a newsgroup that has nothing at all to do with 5th grade math
education.

--
Bobby G.

[Attila.Iskander]

"HeyBub" <hey...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote in message

news:042dnYsEXIH-CNzS...@earthlink.com...

<Irony ON>
It's the teacher's fault, obviously...
<Irony OFF>

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

Most. If the register doesn't tell them how much to hand back, they're
helpless. Yes, they *will* give the wrong change. My wife is constantly
having problems training "kids" who can't count money. ...and she works in a
bank.

>> And most of them will need to whilst working at mcdonalds. I think the
>point he was
>> trying to make is that they don't teach any PRACTICAL math anymore.
>> Just feel good shit and stuff that doesn't matter.
>
>If that's what you want to believe, then more power to you. But looking at
>what they're actually being taught and tested on tells a different, slightly
>less pessimistic, much more truthful story. While smart cash registers have
>reduced the need for employees to mentally calculate the change, I don't
>think it's fair to slander the entire 5th grade population of the country by
>insinuating that they're all doing "2 + 2" math or that they don't know
>numbers from colors. It's just more pointless America bashing AFAICT and
>this time from an American, not some damn furriner. That's sad to see.
>Especially in a newsgroup that has nothing at all to do with 5th grade math
>education.

The fact is that schools are dumbed down. Test scores show it clearly.

[JIMMIE]

On Feb 21, 7:19 pm, "k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

<k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:20:54 -0500, "Robert Green"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> <robert_green1...@yah00.com> wrote:
> >"Steve Barker" <ichasetra...@notgmail.com> wrote in message

I have a son in his 30s and a teenage daughter and I dont see where
anything has been dumbed down. Being witness to what has been taught
over 3 generations shows me that schools have been steadily advancing.
What I have seen is a serious lack of parent involvement in their kids
education. Basically what Im seeing is moms and dads going off to work
in the mornings kids going to school, everybody comes home in the
evening and flops in front of the computer or TV set. There are kids
who get it and kids who don't and the difference is PARENTING.

Jimmie

[Gordon Shumway]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:20:54 -0500, "Robert Green"

<robert_g...@yah00.com> wrote:

<Snip>

>> > --
>> > Bobby G.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> funny, most HS grads these days can't count back change.
>
>Most? You must travel in different circles than I do. I can't see how
>businesses survive if "most" of their counter employees are giving the wrong
>change back. Implying that Americans are that fu&ing stupid is something
>I'd expect from Harry or HomeGuy. It's sad to see HeyBub (and you?) join
>the ranks of the America bashers here.
>

I think you need to get your head out of your ass and see what's going
on around you. First, the counter employees are probably giving the
correct change back because the cash register tells them the correct
amount... if they enter it correctly. Second, even if they gave the
wrong amount back how many people would know? A small percentage I'm
sure. Next time you buy something, as an example, for less than $20
have your $20 bill laying on the counter. After the cashier has your
total and the amount of change calculated hand the cashier the change
necessary for you to get only whole dollars back. At that point you
will probably get a response like "we can't do that" or "I already
have it entered and I have to complete the sale that way. Many of
today's kids don't know how to solve problems.

>> And most of them will need to whilst working at mcdonalds. I think the
>point he was
>> trying to make is that they don't teach any PRACTICAL math anymore.
>> Just feel good shit and stuff that doesn't matter.
>
>If that's what you want to believe, then more power to you. But looking at
>what they're actually being taught and tested on tells a different, slightly
>less pessimistic, much more truthful story. While smart cash registers have
>reduced the need for employees to mentally calculate the change, I don't
>think it's fair to slander the entire 5th grade population of the country by
>insinuating that they're all doing "2 + 2" math or that they don't know
>numbers from colors.

My daughter had taken a math quiz when she was in 5th grade. All of
the questions were taken directly from the book. One question was
"What is one fourth of 100?" My daughter, like I used to do, wrote
only her answer, "25," but didn't show her work. Her answer was
marked as incorrect. She brought the quiz home asked me why it was
wrong and also pointed out that the answer in the back of the book
said "75." I told her the book was wrong. I wrote the short equation
and solved it and the answer we got was not a color. When she went to
school the next day she talked to the teacher about the quiz and
showed her the equation we wrote and solved. Then she also told the
teacher the book was wrong. After looking at my equation, then the
answer in the book, each several times, she said to my daughter "your
dad is an engineer and has taken calculus, right? My daughter said
yes and the teacher said "in that case I'll give you credit for it
then". Apparently the teacher wasn't taught how to solve problems
either.

> It's just more pointless America bashing AFAICT and
>this time from an American, not some damn furriner. That's sad to see.
>Especially in a newsgroup that has nothing at all to do with 5th grade math
>education.

How many times have you seen home repair questions posted here asking
how to troubleshoot a problem? The poster lacks basic troubleshooting
skills because they weren't taught in school.

[The Daring Dufas]

Would you call it lack of troubleshooting skill or lack of logic and
critical thought education? o_O

TDD

[k...@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 06:27:20 -0800 (PST), JIMMIE <JIMMIE...@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:

Look at the SATs over the last 30 years, particularly the math scores. ...and
that's been dumbed down, too. Look at the worldwide rankings.

> Being witness to what has been taught
>over 3 generations shows me that schools have been steadily advancing.

You're blind.

>What I have seen is a serious lack of parent involvement in their kids
>education. Basically what Im seeing is moms and dads going off to work
>in the mornings kids going to school, everybody comes home in the
>evening and flops in front of the computer or TV set. There are kids
>who get it and kids who don't and the difference is PARENTING.

Nonsense. Schools are no longer about students. They're about the adults,
primarily the teachers and unions.

[Robert Green]

"JIMMIE" <JIMMIE...@YAHOO.COM> wrote in message
news:3ab80a5e-05fa-41c6-9edd-

<<I have a son in his 30s and a teenage daughter and I dont see where
anything has been dumbed down. Being witness to what has been taught
over 3 generations shows me that schools have been steadily advancing.>>

Tests scores indicate tests that may or may not be able to accurately assess
the totality of intelligence required to live in today's world. Do the
SAT's in any way measure proficiency with a PC, a skill now required of most
employees? No. Intelligence is a very plastic thing that changes in subtle
ways from generation to generation. Is a 65 year old stupid because he
can't program his digital watch? Probably not, but it's a skill set that's
much more readily found among the young.

<<What I have seen is a serious lack of parent involvement in their kids
education. Basically what Im seeing is moms and dads going off to work
in the mornings kids going to school, everybody comes home in the
evening and flops in front of the computer or TV set. There are kids
who get it and kids who don't and the difference is PARENTING.>>

I'll agree with that. Parenting has changed drastically in the last 50
years. The days when a mother could stay home and take care of the kids is
mostly over. What I remember is doing stuff so advanced that my parents
couldn't really help me with my homework because it included things they had
never learned - like set theory. Somehow I managed to get a Regent's
scholarship, though. In a way, I can't bring myself to fault parents
because a lot of people are working pretty long hours to make sure they stay
off the lay off lists. I know that Adm. Rickover worked my dad and his
people so hard that dad looked like he had just come back from a war every
night he came home. And that was often with papers to read, work to do,
etc. He had the intellect to help, but every ounce of extra strength was
sapped by his day job. Mom didn't have the education to help.

As for kids not being able to count out change - I suspect our educational
system had higher hopes for them than being a counterman/woman at McDonalds.
With the advent of change-calculating cash registers there's little need to
know how to calculate the correct change on the fly and it enables employers
to hire ever dumber employees, hoping that machines will account for the
difference in IQ. Most of us don't realize how much there is to know about
everything and how much that knowledgebase expands each year. The US Army
is happy that American kids play so many computer games because modern
weapon systems are very much joystick and screen oriented.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"Gordon Shumway" <Rho...@Planet.Melmac> wrote in message

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:20:54 -0500, "Robert Green"

<stuff snipped>

> >> funny, most HS grads these days can't count back change.
> >
> >Most? You must travel in different circles than I do. I can't see how
> >businesses survive if "most" of their counter employees are giving the
wrong
> >change back. Implying that Americans are that fu&ing stupid is something
> >I'd expect from Harry or HomeGuy. It's sad to see HeyBub (and you?) join
> >the ranks of the America bashers here.
> >
> I think you need to get your head out of your ass and see what's going
> on around you.

I just *love* it when someone has to resort to a trash mouth. It indicates
that there's very little truth to their position, only bluster. And it
makes liars out of your fellow Republicans who, from time to time, try to
convince us with data even more specious than yours that it's the Democrats
who use rude language. God I love it Gordon, keep it up! (-: Obama can't
win unless you keep helping. And helping. And helping.

> First, the counter employees are probably giving the
> correct change back because the cash register tells them the correct
> amount... if they enter it correctly.

Your grasp of the obvious is stunning. Why do you think change-counting
cash registers are popular? They allow owners to hire very unskilled labor
at cheap rates. (In my area those workers are mostly foreign born, although
I cannot vouch for their immigration status.)

You're looking for mental math giants working minimum wage jobs in the fast
food industry in the era of calculators built into phones, cash registers
and rulers. That makes your overall premise is pretty humorous. You don't
see a massive disconnect in that quest? Poorly educated people take those
jobs because they can't do any better for themselves. I worked fast food my
freshman year in college. As soon as I was "better educated" I became a
stringer for a national newspaper at 10 times the hourly rate of Red Barn.

If your job entails counting out customer change, there's aren't many jobs
lower on the national totem pole except for fruit and vegetable pickers.
You remember them. They are the people you incredibly expect to pay taxes
on incomes incredibly far below the taxable threshold. Based on your
serious calculation error with that issue it doesn't seem like math or logic
education was any better way back when you got yours. Anecdotally speaking.

You see as "proof" that America's rotting from within (hyperbole alert)
because people who take the 2nd worst jobs in the economy *may* not have
good math skills - that, according to your observation of perhaps .0000001
of all workers and no other facts. Sheesh. Your own education's not
looking too good right about now. Where did you learn about statistics and
extrapolation, Gordon? Fast food workers rarely have good *anything* skills
(but they DO have a strong work ethic) because they are often not native
English speakers or they are high school dropouts or kids working after
school.

> Second, even if they gave the wrong amount back how many people would
know? A small percentage I'm
> sure.

"I'm sure." You're *sure* of a lot of things where you have absolutely no
scientific or statistical proof. Are you a Birther, too? I count my change
every time unless it's so little back I might lose a dime or a quarter at
most by not checking. Check back when you can cite a study showing only a
small percentage of people ever count their change. When you ask us to
believe your contention is true just because you said it that's asking too
much. That's because you say a lot of things that turn out not to be
supported by facts. We would be foolish to accept any further assertions
from you without some external validation.

>Next time you buy something, as an example, for less than $20
> have your $20 bill laying on the counter. After the cashier has your
> total and the amount of change calculated hand the cashier the change
> necessary for you to get only whole dollars back. At that point you
> will probably get a response like "we can't do that" or "I already
> have it entered and I have to complete the sale that way.

I do that all the time and I get the correct change back in whole dollars
and most clerks know exactly why I am giving them bills AND change. I am
sure that I am not alone because my wife and friends do it to. If a cashier
refuses to do it, it may be because that's how they were trained to avoid
criminals like "till tappers" who try to beat cashiers out of money. But
you're once again *sure* it's proof of idiocy even though you have not gone
through their training or know the rules they operate under. Where are the
facts to back your certainty?

Ironically, now you're not as absolutely sure of your percentages and you're
hedging by saying "will probably." Little by little your fact-free bravado
evaporates in less and less certain statements. See how easy you are to
debunk? This is great fun for me Gordon, although I suspect it's not as
amusing to you. I can tell when you have to resort to trash-talking that
you're flabbergasted and angry at being caught so flat-footed.

> Many of today's kids don't know how to solve problems.

Now we're down to *many.* Funny how you started out with "most HS grads . .
. can't count back change." Still not one whit of proof, but a continuously
declining level of assertion of opinions disguised as facts. Priceless.

FWIW, Gordon, many of *yesterday's* kids didn't know how to solve problems.
Based on your torturous, self-referential attempts at logic, I would say
that kids of yesteryear (that's *you* in case you didn't "get it") don't
even know how to *analyze* problems, let alone solve them. You're spitting
on today's world while yearning for a mythical yesterday that never was.

Yet more anecdotal evidence. From one dumb teacher you postulate an entire
country of idiots. That's some powerful extrapolation. Are you REALLY an
engineer or do you just play one on the Internet? You seem to be awfully
weak on actual statistics to back up your assertions, preferring to rely on
anecdotal hearsay evidence we have no way of challenging or verifying. How
do we know you're not engaging in "hyperbole" like HeyBub?

What you're saying about education is as ludicrous as asserting all bolts on
a bridge are bad because you found one bad bolt. Teachers are teachers and
there's very little problem-solving required in that field. Engineers,
computer scientists, lawyers, doctors, police detectives and even car
mechanics have to be good problem solvers and they all have to undergo some
pretty serious professional training to excel at it. Sadly, yours didn't
seem to take. You'd run all the farm laborers out of the country and
collapse the agricultural economy "just because."

Good problem solving doesn't entail cutting off your nose to spite your
face. But that's so Republican too. Doesn't matter to them if the US gets
downgraded by financial rating agencies if they can somehow harass the
Democrats and falsely blame them for spending the country bankrupt. They
can easily and conveniently forget the two wars, the TSA, Homeland Security,
the Medicare Drug Plan and an incredible amount of spending that occurred
under a Republican regime and that continues to this day.

> > It's just more pointless America bashing AFAICT and
> >this time from an American, not some damn furriner. That's sad to see.
> >Especially in a newsgroup that has nothing at all to do with 5th grade
math
> >education.
>
> How many times have you seen home repair questions posted here asking
> how to troubleshoot a problem? The poster lacks basic troubleshooting
> skills because they weren't taught in school.

Geez, you really don't understand the difference between anecdotal
"evidence" (in quotes because it hardly qualifies) and actual statistical
research. As far as I can tell, people have NEVER been taught problem
solving in 5th grade. (We *were* talking about 5th graders, you know. Try
to stay on point, Gordon.) Learning how to solve complex problems comes
later when their intellectual capacity matures.

Like HeyBub's mysterious excursion to the Chicago high schools when pinned
down on specifics, you've moved from the maligned American fifth grade to
posters here in AHR to try to salvage your position. That's called "trying
to change to a new agenda when you've completely run out of gas on the
original one."

I learned problem solving skills from my engineer dad as soon as I could
hold a flashlight steady on the engine of our Studebaker. I honed those
skills later in pre-engineering at Brooklyn Tech and in various other
college courses in law, programming, logic and even journalism. You
probably learned(?) them in engineering school as well. To learn how
troubleshoot *well* takes intellectual capacity AND training AND experience.
You can't teach calculus to kids who don't understand the predicate concepts
or who don't have the brain development to comprehend it. Kids don't need
to do addition and subtraction in their heads anymore when a calculator's
built into their phones. Or their cash registers. They have developed new
skills appropriate to the new environment.

Sorry, Gordon, but nothing you've written appears to refute my contention
that HeyBub was dead wrong. His claim that fifth graders can't seem to
distinguish between 2 +2 and a color is not just hyperbole, it's pure
American-bashing bullshit of the Harry variety.

Let me turn your own comment around on you, Gordon from the illegal alien
thread: If you're so unhappy with America that you think American kids are
hopelessly stupid and the country is run by an idiot, why don't you leave?
Bitching about how little you think of immigrants, Democrats, Obama, the
American education system, etc. isn't getting anything constructive done.
What's your solution to the problems of education in America? Anyone can
bitch. It takes serious intellectual horsepower to solve near-intractable
problems.

--
Bobby G.